The Stigma Against Leftists

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Living in the United States, I've noticed a sort of negative stigma against leftists. For example, if I were to go up to an individual on the street and say, "I'm a Communist," they would gasp, look at me like an insane man, and get away as quickly as possible. [EDIT] This is just a rhetorical example. Not that I would actually do this. A better example would be if someone found out that I was a revolutionary leftist from a friend. They would IMMEDIATELY discount ANY ideas or arguments that I would present. Regardless of logic.
Similarly, in circles of educated (and uneducated) people, revealing that you are a revolutionary leftist of any sort causes your ideas to be veritably ignored.

I'm creating this thread to discuss ways of removing this stigma. Any opinions? How can we regain legitimacy in the eyes of the average person. Most significantly, how can we expect to compete with the resources of the state when it comes to "educating" the people about leftist perspectives.

My vision is to accomplish the removal of stigma against leftists as a necessary step towards facilitating revolution.

[Q]

It's the same here in the Netherlands and basically you have to ignore the gasp. Explain your ideas in the given context and just shrug off any trolling against you.

As for jobs etc, it might be a good idea to first sense how other people feel towards leftist ideas. There are always a few leftwingers around though. And you can tap into the instinctive class awareness of others and try to expand that. But be careful, it's not worth losing your job over.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

It's the same here in the Netherlands and basically you have to ignore the gasp. Explain your ideas in the given context and just shrug off any trolling against you.

Yes, but it would be much simpler if we could get rid of the gasp. How? Is it possible? I hope to remove stigma against leftists as a necessary step towards facilitating revolution.

[Comrade Gwydion]

Similarly, in circles of educated (and uneducated) people, revealing that you are a leftist of any sort causes your ideas to be veritably ignored.

Actually, it's very politically correct to pretend to be a 'leftist' in educated circles in the Netherlands, it just doesn't mean the same thing as we mean by leftist. Those people, when they use the word 'leftist' they usually mean rightist (or centrist) who likes art.:(

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Actually, it's very politically correct to pretend to be a 'leftist' in educated circles in the Netherlands, it just doesn't mean the same thing as we mean by leftist. Those people, when they use the word 'leftist' they usually mean rightist (or centrist) who likes art.:(

Yes, but I mean revolutionary leftist when I say that, sorry for the misunderstanding

[Red Future]

Writing from the UK it is more advisable to avoid the stigma by presenting viewpoints to friends , family , work collegues etc indirectley , say to people that you are a radical of sorts explain your viewpoints and then slowly break it down (in simple language )to your true beliefs. eg Marxist-Leninist , Anarchist , Libertarian Socialist etc..

Acting like the "normal guy" against whatever weird stereotype people have of lefties helps. Explain your views calmly and logically which helps to make you seem acceptable.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Writing from the UK it is more advisable to avoid the stigma by presenting viewpoints to friends , family , work collegues etc indirectley , say to people that you are a radical of sorts explain your viewpoints and then slowly break it down (in simple language )to your true beliefs. eg Marxist-Leninist , Anarchist , Libertarian Socialist etc..

Acting like the "normal guy" against whatever weird stereotype people have of lefties helps. Explain your views calmly and logically which helps to make you seem acceptable.

I find it amusing to share viewpoints without revealing my tendency. Then, when they agree (as they almost always do), reveal to them that they may be closeted socialists :cool:

[FreeFocus]

I think a lot of people sense that shit sucks in general, so that can be tapped into. Personally I think the focus in the US should be on grassroots stuff, especially in poor urban areas. I don't know the exact laws on leafleting but I've wondered why leftists (not necessary socialist parties, either) don't leaflet in mailboxes like Democrats and Republicans.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

I don't know the exact laws on leafleting but I've wondered why leftists (not necessary socialist parties, either) don't leaflet in mailboxes like Democrats and Republicans.

Leftists as a whole don't have that much money or support in the United States...

[electro_fan]

to be fair if i went up to someone on the street and started expounding my views on any topic i'd expect that sort of reaction tbf :D

maybe it's a presentation problem, maybe it's also how you are assuming people will react rather than they actually would - im aware Socialism has been given a bad name in the US for various historical reasons and perhaps is a discredited term there. i'd say maybe dont say you are soicalist or communist, maybe just talk to them normally

i had a converstion with a woman on the bus the other day and then out of nowhere she stared mentioning cuts in the public sector and she was gonna lose her job etc, and she said that she thought the cuts were ideological in nature, and i told her that i beleived it too and i told her i was a socialist and what organisation i was part of and what we did, i didn't tell her to join it, but we had a bit of a conversation and i encouraged her to check out some left wing groups and to try and get involved in some local community groups, if you talk to people normally and without preaching to them (i sometimes do this myself so not having a go) you could probably do more, and probably learn more about yourself in the process, since youi are not necessarily going to be right about everything

remember ordianry people often know more and are more aware than you think - there might be specific reasons why they are put off the far left or certain individuals within it, or they might at times feel like what they are saying doesn't relate to them, this might have been the case with their own experiences or they might think that it seems that way

people are usually cleverer than they are given credit for tho and can often see right through bullshit

[electro_fan]

gwidyon - i agree ... its the same here in the UK

[Red Future]

I find it amusing to share viewpoints without revealing my tendency. Then, when they agree (as they almost always do), reveal to them that they may be closeted socialists :cool:

I find the same and it is pretty funny

[Q]

Yes, but it would be much simpler if we could get rid of the gasp. How? Is it possible? I hope to remove stigma against leftists as a necessary step towards facilitating revolution.

To be honest, I think much of the "stigma" resides in ourselves. You don't want to know how many comrades become very uncomfortable when socialism gets mentioned.

So, attitude is an important part of the equation: once you are confident and tell a good story, there will be very few people who openly disagree with you.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

to be fair if i went up to someone on the street and started expounding my views on any topic i'd expect that sort of reaction tbf :D

maybe it's a presentation problem, maybe it's also how you are assuming people will react rather than they actually would - im aware Socialism has been given a bad name in the US for various historical reasons and perhaps is a discredited term there. i'd say maybe dont say you are soicalist or communist, maybe just talk to them normally

i had a converstion with a woman on the bus the other day and then out of nowhere she stared mentioning cuts in the public sector and she was gonna lose her job etc, and she said that she thought the cuts were ideological in nature, and i told her that i beleived it too and i told her i was a socialist and what organisation i was part of and what we did, i didn't tell her to join it, but we had a bit of a conversation and i encouraged her to check out some left wing groups and to try and get involved in some local community groups, if you talk to people normally and without preaching to them (i sometimes do this myself so not having a go) you could probably do more, and probably learn more about yourself in the process, since youi are not necessarily going to be right about everything

remember ordianry people often know more and are more aware than you think - there might be specific reasons why they are put off the far left or certain individuals within it, or they might at times feel like what they are saying doesn't relate to them, this might have been the case with their own experiences or they might think that it seems that way

people are usually cleverer than they are given credit for tho and can often see right through bullshit

I was just putting forward a hypothetical with the "walking up to them on the street" thing... trying to point out that the average American almost has an inbred hate for any revolutionary leftist ideology.

If I weren't to tell them, and they were to hear that I were, they would be almost disgusted and avoid me.

In the United States, it's as if Socialists are considered appalling even though people don't actually know what Socialism is.

Even if I were to present a convincing argument, and they were to agree... if I told them I was socialist afterwards they would often immediately reject that which they had agreed with before. Yes, it's ignorance, but it's despicable for me to see such a reaction.

[Political_Chucky]

IF you were to come up to me off the street and say, "I'm a republican," and walked away, I would probably gasp, look at you like you were an insane man, and run away! AHHHH!

Well there is a great book that talks about this called Rhetoric for Radicals http://newsociety.com/blogs/index.php/2008/12/03/rhetoric-for-radicals-a-handbook-for-twe

The thing I have learned is that inciting violence, which most leftist discussions come to, is a big turn off. You don't have to start talking about revolution or the downfall of capitalism right away.

[Q]

IF you were to come up to me off the street and say, "I'm a republican," and walked away, I would probably gasp, look at you like you were an insane man, and run away! AHHHH!

This reminds me: While Geert Wilders got a lot of votes (about 1/6 of all votes in the last national elections), there are not that many that openly say that they support Wilders, let alone repeat all his crazy talk.

He basically got so large just because he attracted the protest voters. This indicates a major failure on the part of the Dutch SP. But I digress.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Jettison the baggage of the left: if you're going to say "I'm a communist" don't do it from the position of being a preachy bore.
Nobody in Canada likes a leftist because "the left" has been the No Difference Party, paper-pushing Trots, the condescending NGO poverty-pimps, etc. The fact is, actions speak a lot louder than words. For an interesting contrast, it's worth looking to OCAP in the 90s. On one hand, I certainly don't want to glorify OCAP, or the nineties, but on the other hand, their ratio of practice:preach was opposite that of most of the left, and, "Surprise!" that resonated.

[Sentinel]

These things are very different regionally. In Sweden it's pretty safe to say that you are a socialist, most will associate it with some kind of (left wing) social democrat, and keep an open mind -- and then you can build on from there.

Introducing yourself as a communist, however, will unfortunately generate 'the gasp', and well as the discussions about the USSR and Pol Pot, here too. Therefore I usually wait before I know the person and how they will react, before I start using that word more freely.

[Rakhmetov]

Living in the United States, I've noticed a sort of negative stigma against leftists. For example, if I were to go up to an individual on the street and say, "I'm a Communist," they would gasp, look at me like an insane man, and get away as quickly as possible. [EDIT] This is just a rhetorical example. Not that I would actually do this. A better example would be if someone found out that I was a revolutionary leftist from a friend. They would IMMEDIATELY discount ANY ideas or arguments that I would present. Regardless of logic.
Similarly, in circles of educated (and uneducated) people, revealing that you are a revolutionary leftist of any sort causes your ideas to be veritably ignored.

I'm creating this thread to discuss ways of removing this stigma. Any opinions? How can we regain legitimacy in the eyes of the average person. Most significantly, how can we expect to compete with the resources of the state when it comes to "educating" the people about leftist perspectives.

My vision is to accomplish the removal of stigma against leftists as a necessary step towards facilitating revolution.

You know how you remove the stigma by giving them this information:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/u-s-government-t143235/index.html?t=143235&highlight=u.s.government+guilty

[electro_fan]

Jettison the baggage of the left: if you're going to say "I'm a communist" don't do it from the position of being a preachy bore.
Nobody in Canada likes a leftist because "the left" has been the No Difference Party, paper-pushing Trots, the condescending NGO poverty-pimps, etc. The fact is, actions speak a lot louder than words. For an interesting contrast, it's worth looking to OCAP in the 90s. On one hand, I certainly don't want to glorify OCAP, or the nineties, but on the other hand, their ratio of practice:preach was opposite that of most of the left, and, "Surprise!" that resonated.

Sadly that's what the left has frequently come to be equated with - condescending NGO poverty pimps - like the women who used to be my landlord , and it isn't just a presentation problem either, it often comes from a few people on the "left" throwing their lot in with such people, especially on international issues, without critically examining where they are coming from, or doing anything to address misconceptions, but it's also a product of who's ending up representing a "left-wing voice" in the media and if such people are desribing them selves as socialists and agreeing with left wing causes - too often it's people, like, say, laurie penny if anyone 's heard of her??

thats why i literally cringe when i hear "left wing" people going on about what clothes to wear, about things like "buy nothing day", switch out a light and save some trees, etc

too much "protest" can also, frequently, look like publicity seeking stunts, too

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Sadly that's what the left has frequently come to be equated with - condescending NGO poverty pimps - like the women who used to be my landlord , and it isn't just a presentation problem either, it often comes from a few people on the "left" throwing their lot in with such people, especially on international issues, without critically examining where they are coming from, or doing anything to address misconceptions, but it's also a product of who's ending up representing a "left-wing voice" in the media and if such people are desribing them selves as socialists and agreeing with left wing causes - too often it's people, like, say, laurie penny if anyone 's heard of her??

thats why i literally cringe when i hear "left wing" people going on about what clothes to wear, about things like "buy nothing day", switch out a light and save some trees, etc

too much "protest" can also, frequently, look like publicity seeking stunts, too

Exactly, I'm seeking ideas to remove this sort of stigma

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

One thing that I really want to address is education of the masses. How are WE going to be efficient enough with resources so as to compete with bourgeois "education"... they have near limitless money and massive amounts of socioeconomic power.

[FreeFocus]

Leftists as a whole don't have that much money or support in the United States...

True, but it doesn't take much money to have a pamphlet prepared and run off a few hundreds or thousand copies. You can make copies for literally cents, Paper is that expensive either. If leftists can get money for intellectual conferences, we can get money for grassroots stuff which is significantly cheaper.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

True, but it doesn't take much money to have a pamphlet prepared and run off a few hundreds or thousand copies. You can make copies for literally cents, Paper is that expensive either. If leftists can get money for intellectual conferences, we can get money for grassroots stuff which is significantly cheaper.

I guess so... I'm not saying that I'm against grassroots stuff, I was just raising a possibility. It's probably the lack of organization in the United States, it's very difficult to start a Socialist movement here

[Goatpie]

I'm in ireland and when i got involved in politics my friends were like "eh are you a socialist or communismt or something" And i just said i guess i am,And iv convinced a couple friends that socialism is the way forward while some just give you the stupid one liners you usually hear. But one think i have noticed is when people you talk to but dont really care for find out they dont shut up with it. Like recently i was quouting movies with some friends and one lad was like does that have something to do with communism or lenin or something?
I didnt know all socialists had a set guideline of music and movies were only aloud talk about?

I guess there is a stigmata But again theres no need to just wake up one morning and be like wow im a communist all of a sudden.
Iv always been communist but never really had a name to it and when i first heard of communism i was delighted there were other people out there who care :) I do get pissed off when a 12 year old tells me hes a communist and has stalin posters and Talks about the might of the red army and its weapons the whole time :/ And dont even no who karl marx for God sake :/
Or people who were che Shirts and dont realise what he did i was once arguing with "Revolutionary" him saying communism is a horrible idea and it just gets people killed while he was wearingf a che T-shirt :/
Anyway im rambiling and gone totally of topic :)

[Goatpie]

You let them no were here and that theres an alternative,Thats are main goal.

[Sogetes]

I'm in ireland and when i got involved in politics my friends were like "eh are you a socialist or communismt or something" And i just said i guess i am,And iv convinced a couple friends that socialism is the way forward while some just give you the stupid one liners you usually hear. But one think i have noticed is when people you talk to but dont really care for find out they dont shut up with it. Like recently i was quouting movies with some friends and one lad was like does that have something to do with communism or lenin or something?
I didnt know all socialists had a set guideline of music and movies were only aloud talk about?

I guess there is a stigmata But again theres no need to just wake up one morning and be like wow im a communist all of a sudden.
Iv always been communist but never really had a name to it and when i first heard of communism i was delighted there were other people out there who care :) I do get pissed off when a 12 year old tells me hes a communist and has stalin posters and Talks about the might of the red army and its weapons the whole time :/ And dont even no who karl marx for God sake :/
Or people who were che Shirts and dont realise what he did i was once arguing with "Revolutionary" him saying communism is a horrible idea and it just gets people killed while he was wearingf a che T-shirt :/
Anyway im rambiling and gone totally of topic :)

It's a problem here in the Netherlands too. The left is dominated by lifestyle communists/anarchists who take more time debating what vegan meals to prepare on the next meeting, then to organise purposefull events or protest. Apart from not being very appealing to the general public, their actions are ussually more of way to justify their existence, then to produce any kind of meaningfull results.

On the other hand, those organisations that do still have a strong ideological base and produce insightfull political analysis, often do so from behind the desk, with little support or recognition from the general public. They fail to engage in either activism or union struggle, making them more of a critical spectator then a political activist.

Also, as a Trotskyist, I can't help but notice how utterly divided the revolutionairy left in the Netherlands really is. I've never had any kind of meaningfull ideological discussion on current day political landscape, that didn't end in some kind of argument about me being a trotskyist. It also makes it very hard to organise any kind of joined protests or meetings.

[Aurorus Ruber]

The stigma toward the left certainly is a problem. I think a lot of it stems from unfamiliarity on the part of the general public. People hear far more about socialism from right wing pundits than from socialists themselves, and not surprisingly they come away with the impression of the Left as some alien force with monstrous goals and obscure motivations. It probably shouldn't surprise us either if they throw anything remotely unpopular, from Nazis to the "new world order", into the Left regardless of whether it makes sense there.

I think part of the solution lies in normalizing socialism by making our views more present in the popular consciousness. People should recognize the ideas and themes of the left as easily as they recognize the Beatles or references to hit films. They may not agree with socialist ideas necessarily but they should at least have an accurate impression of them.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I like to go up to people, usually when I'm drunk at a bar, and is a very good Russian accent, I ask, "Excuse me. Have you heard of teachings of comrade Vladimir Lenin?" I crack up at their reactions.


To remove the stigma, we're going to have to establish an effective media. Why do I say this? Let's take a look at other populations that are stigmatized. Racism is fueled by stigmas of people of color. We know there are prejudices and stereotypes that reinforce those stigmas. According to these people (http://www.tolerance.org/activity/test-yourself-hidden-bias), even kids as young as three years old demonstrate racist tendencies. The media is a primary disseminator or racist information. However, it doesn't do so explicitly. You rarely turn on a tv or radio and hear “Everyone needs to hail whites!” Instead, you get, “Cindy’s hair is so soft and manageable!” “Let’s go somewhere nice.” and “Don’t you miss the good ole days?” Translation: “White people hair is best,” “Let’s go to an expensive restaurant loaded with white people values,” and “Remember when black people were overtly discriminated, rape wasn’t a crime, and women knew their place?” Other means of sneaking racism into the program is through reporting the crimes conducted by people of color more than whites or by having the characters of color in shows and movies act stupid or savage.

Now let’s take a look at discrimination against leftist. For example, the Obama is a socialist deal McCain started. What came out of this was not whether socialism was bad or not. Socialism being bad was a given. The Democrats fought hard to remove that label from Obama. This is not the worst though. If you watch Hannity, Glenn Beck, O’Reilly, or listen to Limbaugh, they overtly ask others to discriminate against leftists. Socialism is constantly link with totalitarianism, fascism, and laziness, when if anything, it should be the other way around.

So, my point is that we are not going to remove much stigma unless we provide the general population a means of advocacy for socialism that can compete with what capitalists have. Fortunately, shit in capitalism will get so bad as the capitalists continue to accumulate the wealth, that eventually, no matter how much media the capitalists have, the population will uprise. In this sense, even the capitalists are following Che's famous proclamation, "iHasta la victoria, siempre!" :che:

[bots]

Leftist stigma...

Go to the gym everyday. Get huge. Say you're a communist while flexing your biceps. Average people will now take you seriously.

[Delenda Carthago]

Godamn revleft...

If that "stigma" is such a fuckin deal for you, maybe you should try to produce politics...

And by that I m not talkin about Lenin and Bakunin, but serious everyday struggles.Poverty,unemployment, police brutality, art, democratic rights, freedom of speech. That way people will learn what communism is, not by talkin on NEP and collectivisation!

[Franz Fanonipants]

Offer legitimate, honest answers to political questions (other than "shoot all class enemies," because as much as I like to trot that one out it tends to shut down discourse). As AttackGr pointed out, speak to people's experiences and concerns, not dogmatic railing on. Be willing to listen to working people's worldviews and needs and not dismiss them as counter-revolutionary or not good enough to pass some radical muster (give lifestylists hell, though, just because), but rather seek to validate them and try to explain the value of Marxism to their life.

[MarxistMan]

6tuTaEJIkvY
Greg Palast talking about Hugo Cavez



Many people in USA hate socialism because of 3 main things: Conformism + FOX news, CNN, Univision, HBO, Showtime and movies + they haven't been in other nations that are a lot better than USA.

What i mean is that most americans are trained, and taught that wealth is food and cars, and nothing else. But according to more developed societies like Europe, and even Cuba, high levels of wealth and happiness are based on a good college education and a good physiology. (Mind and body).

But not in USA, americans are taught that having a lot of toys at their houses like lawn-mowers, cars, big screen TVs is wealth, but that's bullshit. How can people think that having a sports-car and lots of TV and lots of food is wealth if they are sick, or if they have poor dental health.

So its really conformism, because if you think about it, the majority of americans can only eat a lot, drive nice cars, but when thinking about joining a University they will think it twice because of the super expensive tuitions. And on the health care issue. The american health care system is so bad, and so expensive that many in America prefer to remain sick than paying the thousands of dollars for treatment or surgery.

So if americans hate socialism is because they conform to a life of poverty and poor living standards. Because we all know that under a socialist system, most americans will rise in living standards, because of a socialist health care system, which will provide doctors appointments totally free, and a socialist university education system offering americans college degrees free. So americans will get wealthier in socialism, because in a socialist-america all americans will get free health and free college degrees, that they couldn't have before in capitalism,

Oh and most important of all. In a socialist-america, americans will be owners of corporations, thru the system of worker's ownership. Americans will be owners of giant corporations. So that's another plus of socialism

.

.



Living in the United States, I've noticed a sort of negative stigma against leftists. For example, if I were to go up to an individual on the street and say, "I'm a Communist," they would gasp, look at me like an insane man, and get away as quickly as possible. [EDIT] This is just a rhetorical example. Not that I would actually do this. A better example would be if someone found out that I was a revolutionary leftist from a friend. They would IMMEDIATELY discount ANY ideas or arguments that I would present. Regardless of logic.
Similarly, in circles of educated (and uneducated) people, revealing that you are a revolutionary leftist of any sort causes your ideas to be veritably ignored.

I'm creating this thread to discuss ways of removing this stigma. Any opinions? How can we regain legitimacy in the eyes of the average person. Most significantly, how can we expect to compete with the resources of the state when it comes to "educating" the people about leftist perspectives.

My vision is to accomplish the removal of stigma against leftists as a necessary step towards facilitating revolution.

[Victus Mortuum]

I just think you guys are way over-generalizing about 'americans'. Remember that 1/3 of americans think socialism is better than capitalism. Don't be so quick to make judgments about 300,000,000 people just because the bourgeois media and political system ignore any traces of these sentiments and only present the case for the bourgeois system.

[RadioRaheem84]

I really think Monthly Review has done a great service to legitimize leftist points of views, especially in academia.

They also have style, no joke. Their subscription postcards they send me in the mail look very stylish, logo looks all J Crew, and their catalog has a cool picture of tire factory workers as if it was a GAP ad. Point is, they really make leftism look "hip" which was Paul Sweezy's whole mission.

Leftist film director John Sayles does a good job of legitimizing leftism.

People are also more open to socialism but just don't know it. They assume that when you say you're a Communist they automatically think of Fascist.

If they were to equate their own ideals of social justice and economic democracy with Communism and Socialism, it would be more acceptable.

[MarxistMan]

oh yeah that's right, and there was another poll that said that 50% of americans would love a socialist system

.


I just think you guys are way over-generalizing about 'americans'. Remember that 1/3 of americans think socialism is better than capitalism. Don't be so quick to make judgments about 300,000,000 people just because the bourgeois media and political system ignore any traces of these sentiments and only present the case for the bourgeois system.