Tell me about your dreams...

[uth1984]

A lot (too much) is written about capitalism's wrongs, whilst there is not enough detailed analysis of what form socialism will actually take.
Could you please tell me how you envisage a socialist society? How and why will it work?

Cheers

[redstar2000]

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6362 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6362)

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
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"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[uth1984]

Cheers, bro. But I meant the real specific shit: how will people be paid? How will wage levels be agreed? Will there still be wages, or will people have rations?

[redstar2000]

Nobody knows the details, for the most part...Marxism does not "foretell" the future.

But there will definitely be no market, no money, no salaries or wages, etc.

From each according to her/his ability to each according to her/his need.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6427 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6427)

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[Morpheus]

http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secIcon.html

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archi...nquest/toc.html (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html)

[crazy comie]

I agree with redstar.

[Ctisphonics]

Marxism does not "foretell" the future

Oh really? And just what is all that stuff in the Communist Manifesto between the words 'A spectre is haunting Europe' and 'WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE'.

Ok, ummm, really. I think in the first vol. of Deng Xiaoping selected works there was a report about taking the Gaizhou (something along those lines, it's in the title of the speech) area and how they were going to set up the wages for the various classes for the short term. IHis works are on the People's Daily English website down in the left corner, next to the Chinese Constitution.

[apathy maybe]

Communism - a theoretical system for society.
Major points to mention include,
The lack of a clear hierarchy,
The system of ``from each according to his ability to each according to his needs'',
The lack of a exploitation of other people,
And finally (which links in with the previous two) the complete assumed equality of all people. I.e. All people are treated equal even if they are not. But if someone can not do a job then they don't do it.

Anarchism - a theoretical system for society.
Major points to mention include,
The lack of a clear hierarchy,
The system of ``all property is everyone's property'', i.e. you don't have to work but you would be expected to.
The lack of a exploitation of other people,
And finally (which links in with the previous two) the complete assumed equality of all people. I.e. All people are treated equal even if they are not. But if someone can not do a job then they don't do it.


Now this are not complete descriptions of these systems, nor may they be correct (there will be lots of posts saying that they are not correct if they are not). But a combination of these two ideas is what I think Utopia would be. But remember where Utopia comes from.

[redstar2000]

And just what is all that stuff in the Communist Manifesto between the words 'A spectre is haunting Europe' and 'WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE'?

Well, mostly it's a history lesson. There's also some analysis of current politics and parties and an outline of the way that communists look at things.

Attempts to use Marxism to "predict the future" in useful detail have nearly always come to grief...there are too many variables.

Marxism offers, in historical materialism, an excellent method for understanding the past, a very good method of understanding the present, and a very vague and fuzzy "method" of predicting the future. In the first two of those categories, there's nothing better available.

It would be foolish to "rely" on Marxism to "predict" the future...there's no way to do that.

Beware of those who claim otherwise; they are charlatans.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[crazy comie]

My dream

"1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all"
extract from communist manifesto
[FONT=Times]
The prolitarian rule would be carried out by democraticcly elected soviets but there would be referenda on any new law or decry and the factories would be controlled by workers..
evry one would be equle. In monetry and power terms.

And finally the state shall be abollished.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 5 2003, 03:59 PM
My dream

"1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all"
[FONT=Times]
The prolitarian rule would be carried out by democraticcly elected soviets but there would be referenda on any new law or decry and the factories would be controlled by workers..
evry one would be equle. In monetry and power terms.

And finally the state shall be abollished.
Quite obviously, That post is not by you.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...sult_type=posts (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=lv&CODE=show&searchid=0a3f5b92e0ce0e1a2ae268f45d2699e7&search_in=posts&result_type=posts)

You've suddenly learned proper English?

Oh yeah, Here's the link to the orginal artical; http://www.m2ktalk.com/news.htm

:)

[crazy comie]

All exept the extract from the communist manifesto.

[Dyst]

Hm, lets not forget that the society we live in now is not ALL wrong. There are certain things that need to be changed, like for example, we live in a society of classes, of discrimination, a society where the 3 richest people on earth own more than the 43 poorest countries combined. THAT is what needs to be changed. And that is what will be changed in the communist society.

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2003, 07:59 PM
There are certain things that need to be changed, like for example, we live in a society of classes, of discrimination, a society where the 3 richest people on earth own more than the 43 poorest countries combined. THAT is what needs to be changed. And that is what will be changed in the communist society.
i think you hit it on the nail.