Reverse racism: coloured Nativism BNP-style? [Not actual view]

[Die Neue Zeit]

Agnapostate posted a good Antifa thread a while back on identity politics, but whose central question was never answered (and I don't want to necro it):

A Taste of Their Own Medicine (http://www.revleft.com/vb/taste-their-own-t137575/index.html)


I am working on a literary project aimed as a counter to white supremacist ideology in America (the continents) by asserting the rights of American Indians to control their ancestral homeland, significant to me both because I am an American Indian and because the Western Hemisphere is the home of the major permanent European colonialist states, whereas the invaders of Africa and Asia generally left and Australia is not home to a government that became an imperial power like that of the U.S., as well as the fact that I am a U.S. citizen and know the most about the movement here. In order to give them a taste of their own medicine, it advocates the same race-based repatriation and possible genocide against them that they promote against others. This is not holding with an actual view of mine; it’s merely intended to show them the consequences of the consistent application of their own dogma. I intend to publish a text along the lines of a pamphlet or thin hard-covered book that I will mail to major white supremacist leaders in the U.S. and Canada.

My question is whether people find this sort of "reciprocation" objectionable, in that their own bigotry is hurled back at them by those that have been oppressed by racist policies. I think it's the sort of rhetoric that the supremacists deserve to have thrown in their faces.


My wife teaches sociology. When she gets to the class on immigration issues, she sets up the anti-immigrant students she has by getting them to assert the view that immigrants should "speak the language" if they are going to be here ... then proceeds to conduct the rest of her class in Lakotah until the point is made.

I wouldn't go so far as "possible genocide" as the Agnapostate did in his planned agitation, but I will extend this to "this sort of [insincere] reciprocation in the education and agitation efforts of party groups dealing with ethnic minorities", and a couple of points above come practically from the BNP (my additions in brackets, no link given to their trash website), and this would apply to all the Americas and not just North America:

We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in [indigenous] factories, employing [indigenous coloured] workers [...]

We further believe that [native] industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the [indigenous coloured] nation and people [...]

This racist legislation is a travesty and gross betrayal of the [indigenous coloured] working class, and will be repealed forthwith by [an indigenous coloured people's] government, along with all other measures which in any way discriminate against the indigenous population [...]

In short, this nation stands before an educational abyss, and only [we have] the educational policy designed to pull it back from the brink [...]

The teaching of a full curriculum of [indigenous coloured peoples'] history. This will instil in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples [...]

The ending of the scandalous and racist neglect that has left working class [indigenous coloured] boys at the bottom of the table for academic achievement [...]

[Ours] has become a land where [those of European descent] come first and decent, hard-working [indigenous coloured people] are exploited [...]

Given current demographic trends, we, the indigenous [coloured] people, [are] an ethnic minority in our own country [...]

All these facts point inexorably to the overwhelming and extinguishing of [the indigenous coloured people] and [the indigenous coloured people's] identity [...]

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the [indigenous coloured] people retain their homeland and identity, we call for [...] the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement [and] generous grants to those of [European] descent resident here who wish to leave permanently [...]

[Palingenisis]

Are you implying that First Nations seeking to reclaim their autonomy is similar in any to BNP style waffle....The First Nations are living under occupation and still on the verge of losing forever their heritage...Its a completely different situation.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I agree with you, though. The Native American poster above said that he'd like to employ the same kind of racist rhetoric when engaging white supremacists in North America.

What I am saying, however, is an upping of agitation with respect to identity politics *in party organizations themselves*. For example, only Native North Americans would band together within the North American party organization(s) to publish this kind of stuff as an *anti-racist* irony document. Only Native South Americans would band together within the South American party organization(s) to publish this kind of stuff as an equally *anti-racist* irony document.

Take, for example, the indigenous in Bolivia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia#Demographics). Say they're in a workers party, and that workers party is against racism, but in a fit of irony publish these reverse-racist documents aimed ostensibly at the grossly racist mestizos and criollos (whites).

[gorillafuck]

Take, for example, the indigenous in Bolivia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia#Demographics). Say they're in a workers party, and that workers party is against racism, but in a fit of irony publish these reverse-racist documents aimed ostensibly at the grossly racist mestizos and criollos (whites).
Mestizos are white?:confused:

[Palingenisis]

Well a Marxist-Leninist poster here got banned for calling a black poster a race traitor for his liberalism....There was also a group named "Kill Whitey" for those opposed to white liberals which got scrapped as race-baiting to (psycho came close to giving us who joined it an infraction). Maoist Third-Worldists regularly go on about Crackers and mock USAan white culture (and in fairness some other Maoists do as well but not so loudly :blushing:).

Is that the sort of stuff you are talking about?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Mestizos are white?:confused:

Within the context of Bolivia's ethnic tensions, they're not exactly liked by the "Amerindians."


Well a Marxist-Leninist poster here got banned for calling a black poster a race traitor for his liberalism...

I'm sure Agnapostate didn't go that far in his efforts described above.


Maoist Third-Worldists regularly go on about Crackers and mock USAan white culture (and in fairness some other Maoists do as well but not so loudly :blushing:).

Except those same MTWs aren't Native North Americans, are they?

[Palingenisis]

Except those same MTWs aren't Native North Americans, are they?

Yeah...From what I have come across them seem to be white students.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I should note that "African-Americans" shouldn't engage in this stuff because they're not indigenous. That they're not indigenous makes this kind of stuff less effective against anti-immigration and more racist white rhetoric.

[FreeFocus]

Mestizos are white?:confused:

Most people in Latin American countries aren't even "mestizo." They are either predominantly Indigenous or predominantly White. A brown-skinned Mexican is not half-White, half-Native. Moreover, in Mexico, for example, an Indigenous person can become "mestizo" simply by moving to the city and dropping their culture. Those in Latin America who identify as "mestizo" do so largely because of the racism ingrained in their societies, as well as profound cultural confusion. In many ways, yes, mestizos are white.

In regards to the OP, it's a literary project (for satire kind of), not a serious platform/position, correct? This type of rhetoric might be useful to criticize the people who get up in arms about "illegal" immigration, but White supremacists don't give a shit about Native land rights, Native culture, etc. I mean, let's be real about it. White supremacists will look at something like what was proposed and laugh.

Focus shouldn't be put on those fucking clowns, tbh. The platform you outlined in the OP isn't particularly offensive coming from an oppressed group, but some things would just be unrealistic (and unjust) given the current realities. Some of the stuff, like the voluntary resettlement, would've been realistic in the 1700s and 1800s, but not anymore. Additionally, given the context, it shouldn't even have been voluntary resettlement, but more of a get-the-hell-out type of thing. American settlers weren't "immigrating" to another country, they were trying to build American settlements on the ruins of Native ones.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Most people in Latin American countries aren't even "mestizo." They are either predominantly Indigenous or predominantly White. A brown-skinned Mexican is not half-White, half-Native. Moreover, in Mexico, for example, an Indigenous person can become "mestizo" simply by moving to the city and dropping their culture. Those in Latin America who identify as "mestizo" do so largely because of the racism ingrained in their societies, as well as profound cultural confusion. In many ways, yes, mestizos are white.

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizo

During the colonial period, mestizos quickly became the majority group in most of Latin America; and when the colonies started achieving independence from Spain, the mestizo group often became dominant.


In regards to the OP, it's a literary project (for satire kind of), not a serious platform/position, correct?

Both his and mine are satire, but his is literary and mine is platform.


The platform you outlined in the OP isn't particularly offensive coming from an oppressed group, but some things would just be unrealistic (and unjust) given the current realities. Some of the stuff, like the voluntary resettlement, would've been realistic in the 1700s and 1800s, but not anymore. Additionally, given the context, it shouldn't even have been voluntary resettlement, but more of a get-the-hell-out type of thing. American settlers weren't "immigrating" to another country, they were trying to build American settlements on the ruins of Native ones.

Forgive me for my choice of the *current* BNP manifesto. :lol:

[FreeFocus]

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizo

During the colonial period, mestizos quickly became the majority group in most of Latin America; and when the colonies started achieving independence from Spain, the mestizo group often became dominant.

Both his and mine are satire, but his is literary and mine is platform.

Forgive me for my choice of the *current* BNP manifesto. :lol:

When you look at the numbers, not many Spanish colonists went to Latin America. Whites didn't outnumber Natives in most of these countries - certainly not in Mexico, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, etc (the countries they did outnumber them in, e.g. Argentina, Costa Rica, etc, are still largely White today, and more significant admixture occurred between Whites and Africans, as Natives were largely eliminated through disease, genocide, or cultural/demographic assimilation). A brown-skinned Bolivian telling me that they're mestizo? I would laugh. They are Indians who speak Spanish and, by being taught to despise themselves in the past by White supremacy, assimilated into "mainstream" society. It isn't much unlike African-Americans who feverishly denied any connection to Africa in the first half of the 1900s (and even later, into the 1970s). "Indio" is considered an insult, even a curse, in many places in Latin America. If you call a brown-skinned Mexican an "indio," they will take it very seriously. Even when some Indigenous ancestry is admitted to, it will be insisted that there is Spanish blood. Mexican society is also pretty confusing, because Indigenous imagery is used often and is claimed proudly, but when it comes to respecting and identifying with Indians today, people have none of it.

And I know you used the BNP platform as a base, I'm just saying there's a clear difference between an oppressed group arguing those things and people from one of the richest countries in the world that had the largest formal empire in history.

[Die Neue Zeit]

And I know you used the BNP platform as a base, I'm just saying there's a clear difference between an oppressed group arguing those things and people from one of the richest countries in the world that had the largest formal empire in history.

Actually, I was responding to your remark that my plagiarism was too moderate. ;)

[synthesis]

I think the main problem with stuff like this is that it gives them a platform to say, "Hey, [other white people], look, they do it too - no need to feel ashamed!" so that all the crypto-racialists can drop the prefix and just let it flow full force.

[Die Neue Zeit]

But the above platform would be advocated only by the likes of Native North Americans and Native South Americans. The moment some North American neo-Nazi says, "Hey, [other white people], look" and so on, they'll have Blacks, Orientals, non-indigenous Hispanics, and so on all rallying against them.

[MarxSchmarx]

As far as the Mestizo thing goes, we underestimate just how close the indigenous population came to extinction in many latin american countries - in mexico i think the ratio of "Spaniards (creole or otherwise)" to native peoples was something like 5 to 1 at one point. The difference has been one of birth rates subsequently, as spaniards and later immigrants enjoyed generally higher standards of living and had access to the same resources that lowered birth-rates in other developed countries. At least as regards many central american countries, the large indigenous population is a product of post-conquest (and sometimes post independence) demographic resurgence - indeed, the newborns had to mate with somebody,and the preponderance of Spaniards/Europeans did in fact generally result in most people with spanish heritage mixing with "purer" natives. Arguably only the Andes and Guatemala had sufficiently large native populations that survived the conquests to have a large number of people who have very little to no European or African blood.

As an aside, I read that many neo-Nazis in Brazil actually consider the indigenous Brazilians to be the rightful, "pure" Brazilians, romanticize them considerably and often pay quite a bit of homage to them. I guess these fools will tend to agree that they should go back to Europe, Africans back to Africa etc...

A comrade more familiar with the far right in Brazil should chime in here about this point.

[synthesis]

But the above platform would be advocated only by the likes of Native North Americans and Native South Americans. The moment some North American neo-Nazi says, "Hey, [other white people], look" and so on, they'll have Blacks, Orientals, non-indigenous Hispanics, and so on all rallying against them.

I think you're ignoring the implicit "might makes right" morality by which these tendencies are permeated. You can't assume that rational arguments will foil irrational people.


As an aside, I read that many neo-Nazis in Brazil actually consider the indigenous Brazilians to be the rightful, "pure" Brazilians

That would certainly make them unique among their kind.

[the last donut of the night]

As an aside, I read that many neo-Nazis in Brazil actually consider the indigenous Brazilians to be the rightful, "pure" Brazilians, romanticize them considerably and often pay quite a bit of homage to them. I guess these fools will tend to agree that they should go back to Europe, Africans back to Africa etc...

A comrade more familiar with the far right in Brazil should chime in here about this point.

Eh, I myself am Brazilian, and although I have not lived in Brazil all of my life, I do have enough connection to the country and the culture to give some reasonable answer. The neo-nazi scene in Brazil is literally a joke. It comprises of a few rich, white kids from Sao Paulo who feel obliged to give their bigotry some name. It's almost entirely confined to the south of Brazil, an area with a higher percentage of German and Italian families. There is one sole working organization in the country right now, the PNSB (http://www.nacional-socialismo.com/index.htm) and by some google searches I've done, it's virtually unknown.

As for the Indian thing, that probably comes from the Acao Integralista Brasileira, a quasi-fascist group that surged up here around the 30s. They, like most of their kind and the Brazilian nazis today, rejected international capitalism (and proposed some "third way", rejecting socialism as well) as a creation of Jewish bankers, sought for some glorious past, called for more social conservatism, etc. Brazil, ever since the Romantic writing period, has generally idealized the Indian, and the AIB did this as well. In fact, the standard greeting in the organization was "Anauê!", a Tupi expression that roughly means, "you are my friend." They wore green shirts, also a symbolism of the "jungles" of Brazil.

my two cents.

[Die Neue Zeit]

As an aside, I read that many neo-Nazis in Brazil actually consider the indigenous Brazilians to be the rightful, "pure" Brazilians, romanticize them considerably and often pay quite a bit of homage to them. I guess these fools will tend to agree that they should go back to Europe, Africans back to Africa etc...


I think you're ignoring the implicit "might makes right" morality by which these tendencies are permeated. You can't assume that rational arguments will foil irrational people.

While I agree with synthesis's argument re. rationality, one could still ask a rhetorical question based on the ordering of MarxSchmarx's statement. Now we're shifting the focus from the North American neo-Nazi and the South American white supremacist to the European white nativist. Such nativist would order his racist slogan such that "Europe for Europeans" is first in his order and "Europeans back to Europe" is last.

Bring up the colonialist oppression, then ask why the scum doesn't put "Europe for Europeans" dead last in his order and "Europeans back to Europe" first.

[synthesis]

Bring up the colonialist oppression, then ask why the scum doesn't put "Europe for Europeans" dead last in his order and "Europeans back to Europe" first.

I seriously doubt this argument will convince anyone of anything, just to be honest.

[FreeFocus]

Again, White supremacists don't care about logic or the rights of nations. If we're talking about coming up with ways to argue or troll on Stormfront, let's be clear about that. But realistically, talking about crimes committed against peoples White supremacists consider inferior will not do anything.