What is the importance of a revolutionary press? [Archive]

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 13:32

Krimkrams, read the Chris Harman article. The last thing a revolutionary press is about is making money. If you wanted to sell something to make money for your organisation, you'd need to sell something which is commercially successful. Revolutionary papers never are.

That wasn't actually a serious comment on my part...:rolleyes:

However:

It isn't. Being serious is a requirement for selling the paper.I wish it was. Or...maybe they actually are serious, but there are lots of small groups, particularly student groups, who seem to like to put out a load of absolute drivel. Hardly worth the paper it's printed on, if you ask me! So it's definitely difficult to take them particularly seriously, even if they do...

EDIT: aufkleben might have hit on something there, to link in. Why even bother writing a half-decent paper, the kind of thing that might make people want to join your movement, when you know that the only people who are going to read it are already in the group...?

Hit The North

2nd January 2011, 13:46

So non-serious organizations give it away for free?

I get it, you're objecting to the word "sell"! Well, it would be swell to give it away, but - and this is where so-called "libertarian communists", like your good self, always betray how you're actually against the interests of workers - Socialist Worker is produced by people who need paying so they can pay their bills, feed their kids, &c.

Of course, I get the fact that a small group of activists can give up their free time and produce good, urgent pamphlets or leaflets, relatively cheaply and so afford to give away this literature. However, this could not be done on a national basis which requires a professionally run printing press.

Finally, if someone is prepared to pay for a paper, then it does indicate a level of seriousness. You know that they're not going to throw it in the bin as soon as they're out of your eye-line, like they might with a free leaflet.

Can there be socialist organizations that don't have papers at all?
Can they be serious?`
They can be as "serious" as they like, but without an organisational and agitational paper, they will have a problem in terms of how they generalise their politics.

Might as well sell something useful, like lighters or condoms.
Nice to see that you don't consider it useful for revolutionaries to attempt to challenge the blanket bourgeois propaganda of the capitalist press. makes me wonder exactly what you are "serious" about?

Hit The North

2nd January 2011, 13:57

How many people who aren't already involved in left politics in some way, shape or form actually buy the Socialist Worker?

Depends on your definition of "involved". The SWP, for instance, has a fluctuating periphery of workers who are interested in socialist ideas and committed variously to socialist values, but who are not currently involved in regular agitation or struggle. But, of course, it is obvious that revolutionary socialists are in a minority amongst the class and people disengaged with politics or with a different type of politics will not buy a paper like Socialist Worker. However, it is important to realise that workers politics change, and can change rapidly, particularly when they are drawn by circumstances into struggle. So it is important that the socialist paper is there when people are questioning their conditions and looking for answers.

ed miliband

2nd January 2011, 13:57

I get it, you're objecting to the word "sell"! Well, it would be swell to give it away, but - and this is where so-called "libertarian communists", like your good self, always betray how you're actually against the interests of workers - Socialist Worker is produced by people who need paying so they can pay their bills, feed their kids, &c.

Of course, I get the fact that a small group of activists can give up their free time and produce good, urgent pamphlets or leaflets, relatively cheaply and so afford to give away this literature. However, this could not be done on a national basis which requires a professionally run printing press.

Finally, if someone is prepared to pay for a paper, then it does indicate a level of seriousness. You know that they're not going to throw it in the bin as soon as they're out of your eye-line, like they might with a free leaflet.

But how many people are actually prepared to pay for the paper? A "revolutionary press" is only of any importance if the amount of people reading it who don't identify as revolutionaries outweighs the amount of people who do. For a situation like that to arise you can either attempt to do the 'News on Sunday' thing a la Big Flame and produce a paper stocked in newsagents across the country (and fail spectacularly) or you can produce something that you give away for free. On the one hand a lot of people will chuck that thing away, on the other hand those who don't will vastly outnumber the amount of "non-revolutionaries" who actually buy the Socialist Worker (or any other similar paper) from somebody standing outside Tesco.

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 14:10

Nice to see that you don't consider it useful for revolutionaries to attempt to challenge the blanket bourgeois propaganda of the capitalist press. makes me wonder exactly what you are "serious" about?

Technically speaking, selling lighters and condoms (or other things. Keyrings, badges, all this kind of stuff) could help fund the cost of free papers. Or, leaflets, if we prefer to put it that way. For somebody to be willing to part with their money for a newspaper, they must surely already be sympathetic to the cause. Selling other stuff to those who are sympathetic, namely members and so on, could help create papers, pamphlets or flyers for free distribution. This, of course, would increase the number of people who will be exposed to the ideas in the paper.

However, the OP mentioned the internet, and this we haven't touched up. Of course an article written in 1984 isn't going to talk about the power of websites and blogs. Are we harnessing it enough? Getting an article to 1000 people on a website is much cheaper, is it not, than producing 1000 papers. The issue, as I mentioned before, is that selling papers earns money. And we accept, as you pointed out, that serious groups of decent scale need to generate some income, even if just to cover their own costs.

Selling lighters could help pay for the server hosting or something, I dunno...

Widerstand

2nd January 2011, 14:16

Of course, I get the fact that a small group of activists can give up their free time and produce good, urgent pamphlets or leaflets, relatively cheaply and so afford to give away this literature. However, this could not be done on a national basis which requires a professionally run printing press.

Nationwide pamphletting/leafletting is impossible without selling them? I guess the ones behind the Castor-Shottern or NO-IMK campaign, the people of Avanti and other iL-network groups, etc. must be fucking wizards.

Finally, if someone is prepared to pay for a paper, then it does indicate a level of seriousness. You know that they're not going to throw it in the bin as soon as they're out of your eye-line, like they might with a free leaflet.

I actually once bought a Spartacist paper because I felt bad for them. I guess you're right.

They can be as "serious" as they like, but without an organisational and agitational paper, they will have a problem in terms of how they generalise their politics.

What does "generalizing one's politics" mean, exactly? And why is it a good thing?

Nice to see that you don't consider it useful for revolutionaries to attempt to challenge the blanket bourgeois propaganda of the capitalist press. makes me wonder exactly what you are "serious" about?

I'd much rather spend time and energy actually helping and organizing workers than selling them stories about my view on topics as relevant as the dialectic contradiction in the sewer system of North Korea.

Widerstand

2nd January 2011, 14:20

Selling lighters could help pay for the server hosting or something, I dunno...

Actually there are lighters sold in support of leftist groups here, as are T-Shirts. And of course there are Solidarity partys (where the income from drinks and sometimes the entry price goes to support a specific group, event, lawsuit, etc.), the major way of German leftists' money generation.

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 14:33

And of course there are Solidarity partys (where the income from drinks and sometimes the entry price goes to support a specific group, event, lawsuit, etc.), the major way of German leftists' money generation.

Ah yes. I mean, I admit that it wasn't actually a party, but I remember they had an impromptu bar setup in the AZ in Köln. I'll assume that the profits from that mainly went towards the running costs of their generator, and the cost of buckets to put under leaks in the roof :laugh:

But seriously, I would argue that covering the production costs of a newspaper through these other means, to then allow the paper to be distributed for free, is probably more productive than covering the cost of the newspaper from its sales. Because the former seems more useful in spreading revolutionary politics, whilst the latter makes the whole enterprise seem more like a massive ego-trip, so socialists can say to other socialists 'look how awesome I am, I made a paper and everything', whilst nobody else ever sees it...

Widerstand

2nd January 2011, 14:39

Ah yes. I mean, I admit that it wasn't actually a party, but I remember they had an impromptu bar setup in the AZ in Köln. I'll assume that the profits from that mainly went towards the running costs of their generator, and the cost of buckets to put under leaks in the roof :laugh:

Sometimes I get the impression I'm the only European RevLeft user that has never been at the AZ Köln. :blink:

Also, solidarity parties are awesome. Not only can they be used to promote rather unknown leftist artists, they can also draw lots of people from all kinds of social and political backgrounds (because everyone likes to party and everyone likes to support a "good cause") who then get used to the community centers, get in touch with the community, get access to leaflets and other propaganda, etc.

But seriously, I would argue that covering the production costs of a newspaper through these other means, to then allow the paper to be distributed for free, is probably more productive than covering the cost of the newspaper from its sales. Because the former seems more useful in spreading revolutionary politics, whilst the latter makes the whole enterprise seem more like a massive ego-trip, so socialists can say to other socialists 'look how awesome I am, I made a paper and everything', whilst nobody else ever sees it...

Of course!

Spawn of Stalin

2nd January 2011, 14:51

Imagine if the papers were free, you go out on a Saturday afternoon into a busy city, stand on a corner for an hour and how many people do you think walk past you? In Birmingham I'd say it's well over 3,000, say 500 of those people take your paper - that's less than 20% which isn't an unreasonable figure based on my experience giving out leaflets - and you're out there for three hours, how do you fund 1,500 newspapers a week? No, lets say there are ten of you across the country doing this, only ten, not many at all I'd say, 15,000 free papers a week, how do you generate enough capital for that without starting a full fledged business?

In a revolutionary situation when large scale contact with the public and mass support would be critical it would probably be worth thinking about giving them away, it would pay off in the long run. It is a struggle just to break even, there is no party in this country that can afford to just give away paper, which is very expensive for those not in the business of capitalism.

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 15:56

the importance of selling the paper is that when you are standing there you can have a chat to people about their views if they are interested, and you can hopefully learn sometihng from them, as to what ordinary people are thinking and feeling about the cuts or whatever it is, whether they are feeling sympathetic to socialism or starting to, and if you are helping at something like a strike, then the people involved in it will know that you are from say the CWI or the SWP or whatever, and can maybe buy a paper if they are interested, but otherwise they can just know that they are supported, recently I helped at a strike, I din't go there with the purpose of selling papers but because I wanted to help out

giving away free papers might be convenient for a large company that makes loads of money through other means like the evening standard or the metro, but it isn't convenient for people who in most cases have other jobs and would therefore be producing the paper for free, as money has to be obtained for producing it in the first place, as well as other party literature and other things that the organisation does such as organise demos, etc etc etc. also given that nobody is going to be earning enough money to fund all this how is it meant to be done without selling to people?

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 16:00

obviously its not a good idea to hassle people tho, the way that sometimes happens

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 16:01

Hmm...I have literally no experience with printing and distributing such huge numbers of flyers, I admit...

According to the first website to come up on my search online, printing 15.000 simple black-and-white double-sided A4 leaflets will set you back around £450, or 3p/leaflet. Of course a small group probably wouldn't want to shell out that kind of money, but I don't think a small group would want to throw 15.000 flyers out into the wind, either. For a group of 450 people, though, this would represent a contribution of £1/person/week. Somebody with a better financial mind than me can some up with some kind of system of how to raise these funds. Currently my suggestion would be to just go to LIDL, where you can buy 30 15-packs of San Miguel, costing £240, or around 53p/bottle, and then throw a party in which they are sold for around £1.60/bottle. Repeat every week. Hah! Sounds like the kind of stuff we socialists should be doing with our time...:rolleyes:

ed miliband

2nd January 2011, 16:10

the importance of selling the paper is that when you are standing there you can have a chat to people about their views if they are interested, and you can hopefully learn sometihng from them, as to what ordinary people are thinking and feeling about the cuts or whatever it is, whether they are feeling sympathetic to socialism or starting to, and if you are helping at something like a strike, then the people involved in it will know that you are from say the CWI or the SWP or whatever, and can maybe buy a paper if they are interested, but otherwise they can just know that they are supported, recently I helped at a strike, I din't go there with the purpose of selling papers but because I wanted to help out

How often have you actually struck up a conversation with a passer-by about cuts, socialism, etc. while selling newspapers?

giving away free papers might be convenient for a large company that makes loads of money through other means like the evening standard or the metro, but it isn't convenient for people who in most cases have other jobs and would therefore be producing the paper for free, as money has to be obtained for producing it in the first place, as well as other party literature and other things that the organisation does such as organise demos, etc etc etc. also given that nobody is going to be earning enough money to fund all this how is it meant to be done without selling to people?W.A.G., Haringey Solidarity Group + a number of other similar organisations all produce free news-sheets. The AFed produces a free paper (nominally at least; I think donations are preferred). It can be done, although it'd be interesting to know the financial arrangements of all of that.

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 16:14

quite a few times actually tho recently i've just been handing out flyers rather than selling but people have been coming up and talking to us loads. i take yer point though, if that's all you're doing and getting up in peoples' faces and harassing them with papers then that's a problem

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 16:19

it happens a lot, and a lot more than what the people who sneer at it think, people are actually grateful for the fact that we are doing something, as long as you don't do a hard sell and try and force someone to buy it then you are fine.

i don't necessarily think you cant be organised without a paper but trots do do a lot of the long hard boring "donkey work" and if a bunch of people with papers go along to every single unfashionable demo about car park charges and go to picket lines etc, it does pay off in the end, maybe they won't join your group but imo that's not what it's about, it's about the ideas and people making their own mind up what's right isn't it

Spawn of Stalin

2nd January 2011, 17:34

@Krimskrams

Yeah, flyers are cheap to print, that's why we give them out for free, but we're talking about newspapers here. We print Proletarian, Lalkar, and all of our leaflets ourselves, all using the same machine and methods, a copy of Proletarian is 10-15 times the size of a leaflet, thus, costs 10-15 times as much to produce. So instead of your suggested contribution of £1 a week, we're now looking at upwards of £10 a week, and our members already give a hell of lot of money to the party in dues and donations. Using your research, 15,000 papers would cost £5000+ to print, this can't be funded by selling bottles of lager, we're talking about thousands of pounds a week. It's just not realistic in a country where even the biggest left parties are insignificant.

Spawn of Stalin

2nd January 2011, 17:37

How often have you actually struck up a conversation with a passer-by about cuts, socialism, etc. while selling newspapers?
As a rough estimate...hundreds of times. I chat to almost everyone I sell a paper to, occasionally talk to someone who takes a flyer though this is more of a rarity. Sometimes people just approach you to see what you're about, I think you'd be surprised.

Lucretia

2nd January 2011, 17:59

I would like to note that the initial post in this thread was actually an on-topic follow-up to something another poster wrote in another thread. Bob the Builder, apparently wanting to draw more attention to the issue for whatever reason, moved my post to its own thread and gave it a title. Also, nobody has even attempted to answer my initial question: why is it the ISers who seem to hung up on newspaper sales? Is this a strategy that is openly discussed throughout the various groups and branches? Or is it more or less handed down?

Hit The North

2nd January 2011, 18:13

I would like to note that the initial post in this thread was actually an on-topic follow-up to something another poster wrote in another thread. Bob the Builder, apparently wanting to draw more attention to the issue for whatever reason, moved my post to its own thread and gave it a title.

I split it because I thought the issue of the role of a revolutionary press would be interesting in its own right, and it was a little off-topic in the SWP thread, and the issue might have got lost in that larger thread.

Your question has certainly received more interest than it would have done otherwise, I think. So I hope you're happy with my modding decision. :)

Lucretia

2nd January 2011, 18:19

I split it because I thought the issue of the role of a revolutionary press would be interesting in its own right, and it was a little off-topic in the SWP thread, and the issue might have got lost in that larger thread.

Your question has certainly received more interest than it would have done otherwise, I think. So I hope you're happy with my modding decision. :)

I understand the purpose, and I'm not livid about it or anything. I just wish that you would have started your own thread if you had wanted a thread on it. My philosophy is that posts really shouldn't be tampered with unless they violate some rule. The importance of not alienating people from the products of their labour, etc. Surely you understand.

Some modding decisions I have seen in my brief time here are questionable. I recall a good thread about a specific legal case involving a husband being prosecuted for opening his wife's emails was moved to "chit chat" while some thread asking about people's general attitudes toward the police were allowed to stay in the politics section.

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 18:36

Using your research, 15,000 papers would cost £5000+ to print, this can't be funded by selling bottles of lager, we're talking about thousands of pounds a week. It's just not realistic in a country where even the biggest left parties are insignificant.

That might be the issue. Though if even the biggest left parties are insignificant, there's surely no need for 15.000 copies of a newspaper...it's all an issue of scale, really. Though I might suggest that 15.000 free news-sheets (as in, single-sheet newspapers) handed out to all and sundry probably do more than 1.000 fifteen-sheet newspapers, if these papers are sold at 50p a pop (the price needed to cover the costs) to those who specifically take an interest in acquiring them. Particularly if those news-sheets contain a link to a well-maintained website, which would contain the other stories that would have been included in the 'full-length' paper. Just put the highlights, so to speak, on the news-sheet.

I guess this is an issue of scale again. I have no direct experience of such large organisations, so that might be an issue. Still, I think it's important not to ignore the power of the internet nowadays. People who are interested in a certain idea, in this case socialism, will happily go online and browse the news site. So it almost seems to me like throwing money away to just print up these websites and sell them to those same people who care about it. And as for getting people interested, strategic flyering just seems more productive to me...and much kinder on the wallet, too!

ComradeOm

2nd January 2011, 18:47

However, the OP mentioned the internet, and this we haven't touched up. Of course an article written in 1984 isn't going to talk about the power of websites and blogs. Are we harnessing it enough? Getting an article to 1000 people on a website is much cheaper, is it not, than producing 1000 papersThe internet is grossly over-rated, typically by those who use it, as a means of reaching mass audiences. Largely because with the internet the viewers have to come to you instead of you going to them. Putting a paper in a local newsagents or staff canteen is of much more use than hoping that someone stumbles upon your blog. Which is the other sense in which the word 'selling' is so important

Iraultzaile Ezkerreko

2nd January 2011, 18:53

Th ISO's paper isn't necessarily sold. We ask for a $1 donation and mostly use the paper as a way to strike up conversation, as many people have described already. And to those who think this isn't an effective method for a revolutionary group, think again. Not only are we being public about our politics and making sure we support those politics in front of everyone, but we have real conversations with real people who may only vaguely know about revolutionary socialism and have the most basic of understandings about the news of the day. This has helped us to recruit people into the periphery and get them active in study groups and meetings on education. This alone has helped our local branch nearly double in size over the past year.

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 19:00

Not everyone even has access to the internet anyway

Lucretia

2nd January 2011, 19:11

psgchisolm

2nd January 2011, 20:00

hatzel

2nd January 2011, 21:55

Revolutionary bake-sale? How delightfully off-topic...

Back to the point, though...

What do we consider the main advantages of a revolutionary press in the form of a full newspaper, then? I mean, the whole talking to people thing can also happen when giving flyers. Is a complete, multi-sheet newspaper, sold for a price (or with expectation of donation) better than a leaflet and, if so, why?

ComradeOm

2nd January 2011, 22:55

What do we consider the main advantages of a revolutionary press in the form of a full newspaper, then? I mean, the whole talking to people thing can also happen when giving flyers. Is a complete, multi-sheet newspaper, sold for a price (or with expectation of donation) better than a leaflet and, if so, why?How much content can you fit in a leaflet? A paper provides a group with a very public means of disseminating relevant news, providing analysis and essays, and having open discussions. That is, building a discourse that stands apart from the bourgeois media. Now the obvious benefit of this is in winning popular support for the group's activities/policies, but the paper provides a focus and a structure for the organisation itself. Its no wonder that newspapers have played an integral part in almost every revolutionary movement or organisation in the past two centuries

Conversely a leaflet is used to convey specific details - say, the time/route of a march or info on a single issue. Something that you can fit on a single sided A4 sheet. They're hardly comparable

NiccolÃ² Rossi

2nd January 2011, 22:58

What is the importance of a revolutionary press?

A great question! Unfortunately one that you'll never find the answer on revleft.

Nic.

electro_fan

2nd January 2011, 23:08

How much content can you fit in a leaflet? A paper provides a group with a very public means of disseminating relevant news, providing analysis and essays, and having open discussions. That is, building a discourse that stands apart from the bourgeois media. Now the obvious benefit of this is in winning popular support for the group's activities/policies, but the paper provides a focus and a structure for the organisation itself. Its no wonder that newspapers have played an integral part in almost every revolutionary movement or organisation in the past two centuries

Conversely a leaflet is used to convey specific details - say, the time/route of a march or info on a single issue. Something that you can fit on a single sided A4 sheet. They're hardly comparable

as long as that's not all you're doing, and you're not just trying to sell papers all the time and not actually doing fuck all to help, then it's fine - in fact it makes people aware that we are on their side. in fact sometiomes we get people we've met a few times before who recognise us, coming up and asking to buy them :) which is a bit embarrassing if we've not got any with us :)

i remember on the demos before i joined the CWI i used to buy the socialist worker and the socialist and you could work out what you did and didn't agree with, it's all very useful, especially if you are thinking of joining something

i sometimes get solfed's paper sometimes too if there is someone whos selling it

Sand Castle

2nd January 2011, 23:20

We have a lot of unused newspaper boxes sitting around this city collecting dust and garbage. I like to clean them out and regularly put newspapers and other literature in them. Another thing I like to do is go into waiting rooms, laundromats, and other places where people are bored and waiting, and dump a few copies of the party newspaper there. The people are bored, they need something to read. If you can squat a bus stop newspaper box, that works great too.

If you give some random person a leaflet or a newspaper, then they might just be taking it to be polite. They will throw it in the trash soon enough. Even with the donations thing, they could just be polite and give you some change or say they have no money or are in a hurry. So we must ask ourselves, "at what point am I wasting paper?"

Throughout my leaflet and papering experience, nobody has bothered to stop and talk with me.

Don't get me wrong, if selling a newspaper and trying to start conversations works for you, do it. For some people, and in some places, it is different. Try the selling and talking method and see if it works in your area, if the people of your city have a receptive attitude for it. If not, try squatting newspaper boxes like I do. The only way to know what works is to try every method.

Then there are posters for walls. I've noticed very few people take time out of their day to write down information from a poster. From my experience, people don't visit websites from a poster. And no, "at least getting your name out there," doesn't fucking help. If nobody shows up to the event, regardless of whether or not they saw the poster, it matters very little in the end because you still failed.

The thing with posters, however, is where you put them. I guess if you put them on the bulletin board in a busy stairway, nobody will care to stop because it is so crowded and they are probably in a hurry.

You need to "be a guerrilla," as one of my friends put it. Go into the fucking grocery store and put them shits in the chip aisle between the bags. Put them up in restrooms above the toilet, at eye level. People will notice it while they're taking a piss. As they relieve themselves, and begin to feel at ease and relaxed (and one with the universe), they will read it. Hell, put the posters in the newspaper boxes you're squatting (put them next to the newspapers). Bus stops are another great place for posters.

Quite often, posters and leaflets are the same thing. It's just that one is handed out and the other is fucked to a wall. The best place to leaflet and distribute newspapers are political events. That is where people will be most receptive because, you know, they care. Handing stuff out at a May Day rally worked well for me. Handing stuff out to random people on the street didn't.

Have you ever thought about taking out an ad for a party.... in another newspaper?! Or maybe another news website? Maybe on television? Just because it isn't an ad in the New York times doesn't mean it's useless. Take out an ad in a local newspaper.

Revolutionary press is important, but getting a readership for it is what makes it work.

Those of you denouncing the internet, shame on you (:D). I was once part of a leftist YouTube group with almost a thousand members. It isn't around anymore, but still. Joining a group on YouTube is certainly different from joining a party, or collective, or whatever, but there is still something to be learned. Put links to the website of your group everywhere. More links means more clicks. More clicks means more potential member. If you have 300 members in your party, and they each put out three links a month, you will have 10,800 links to your group website at the end of the year. Even more if you are more dedicated than that. YouTube and Facebook seem to be helpful tools, especially YouTube. Yeah, your accounts could get taken down, but it isn't that big of a problem.

Put the links on local websites. Let's talk more about local issues in the revolutionary press. Yes, people in Richmond, VA, USA are going to be interested in things like Saudi Arabia, but local worker issues are probably more important to them. Or they will at least feel as if they have more control over it, and if they see the article and realize there are members of that party in their city, they will probably be more likely to join. Those of you living in places with many organizations probably don't feel me on this one though. Try being the only member in your area, then get back to me.

hatzel

3rd January 2011, 00:17

How much content can you fit in a leaflet? A paper provides a group with a very public means of disseminating relevant news, providing analysis and essays, and having open discussions.

Of course, as an ideal. But as we've already mentioned, newspapers are much more expensive than single-sheet stuff, whatever the form. Sure, for these large groups it's hardly an issue, as they have the infrastructure and finances to undertake such a venture. In an ideal world we'd all have newspapers, to hand out free, leave here or there, in libraries and cafés, anywhere at all, but the reality is that we don't. In this case, the obvious benefits of the newspaper as a form of media may well be rendered useless for groups with a tight budget. This surely has to be taken into consideration when comparing the relative merits.

Iraultzaile Ezkerreko

3rd January 2011, 00:41

Of course, as an ideal. But as we've already mentioned, newspapers are much more expensive than single-sheet stuff, whatever the form. Sure, for these large groups it's hardly an issue, as they have the infrastructure and finances to undertake such a venture. In an ideal world we'd all have newspapers, to hand out free, leave here or there, in libraries and cafés, anywhere at all, but the reality is that we don't. In this case, the obvious benefits of the newspaper as a form of media may well be rendered useless for groups with a tight budget. This surely has to be taken into consideration when comparing the relative merits.

Yes, but it also makes no sense for someone to just sit on their ass and berate every leftist who does paper sales. It's an effective method (here in Atlanta) of engaging with people and can significantly help a group if they have the resources to do it. However, whether or not you can afford a paper sale doesn't mean you should immediately write the method off or hold it as the holy-grail of organizing techniques. As sultan said, everything depends on your local scene and whether or not certain things work but you have to be willing to adapt your methods.

The main critique I hear of any of the IS groups on this forum of "paper-selling zombies" helps no one and gets us no where, and most of those critiques are made by people without any rational reasoning. Organizing is organizing, if what you're doing is working, keep doing it! But don't attack a group just because they sell a paper, that accomplishes nothing and only makes you look like a twat. As revolutionaries, we should all be doing everything within our powers to educate and recruit. Selling papers, if within your possible methods, can be highly effective.

hatzel

3rd January 2011, 02:47

Am...am I getting attacked or something here? I mean, people can sell as many papers as they want, for all I care, I'm just thinking about what is the most effective and most efficient way of going about things, particularly for smaller groups. I don't think there's much doubt that we would all like an endless supply of newspapers, which cost nothing to produce, and can then be given to as many or as few people as we wish. This is clearly the ideal. I'm just hoping for some insight as to what approaches we think best suit smaller groups without the resources of IS groups and so on.

I personally haven't seen anybody on this thread make any comments criticising what IS members choose to do with their time...

ComradeOm

3rd January 2011, 10:50

Of course, as an ideal. But as we've already mentioned, newspapers are much more expensive than single-sheet stuff, whatever the form. Sure, for these large groups it's hardly an issue, as they have the infrastructure and finances to undertake such a venture. In an ideal world we'd all have newspapers, to hand out free, leave here or there, in libraries and cafés, anywhere at all, but the reality is that we don't. In this case, the obvious benefits of the newspaper as a form of media may well be rendered useless for groups with a tight budget. This surely has to be taken into consideration when comparing the relative merits.Hence Bob's comment about papers and 'serious' groups. Its not that small organisations are somehow not revolutionary in intent, but that having a paper is a real indicator as to the size, resources and dedication of a party. Even these don't find it easy to maintain a paper (hence the charge) but the benefits are worth it

Obviously this does not apply to a small group for whom a paper is simply beyond their resources. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them using a leaflet or alternative medium, before upgrading to a full paper when they grow large enough. Historically that's how many political papers have started off. But nobody is arguing that a paper is a universal requirement for all revolutionary groups, regardless of size or resources. So I don't see why anyone would attack the principle of paper-selling, or those organisations that do this, just because other groups can't afford to publish their own rag

Jimmie Higgins

3rd January 2011, 11:22

How often have you actually struck up a conversation with a passer-by about cuts, socialism, etc. while selling newspapers?I've spoken to more people about more of a range of topics doing tabling and selling papers than I have in all the movement work and demonstrations I've been on. In my workplace and in coalitions, often people are so busy that if you are doing some kind of political activity or campaign, people tend to only talk about that... workplace conditions or budget cuts, but not the war or other seemingly unrelated issues. Having a physical paper has been a useful way to quickly let people know the bigger picture of my politics and what they are all about.

Additionally, if it wasn't for someone selling me a paper I may not have joined a radical group when I did - then I might have just gotten disillusioned when the wars started and never become a dedicated radical activist at all.

Tabling on the street - even if you are giving away fliers or handing out free self produced copies of articles/fact-sheets/newsletters (all of which I do in addition to selling papers - and I often give the paper away when it's clear that the person I'm speaking with is sincere, engaged and honestly can't spare the change) is really helpful for radicals IMO. Often it is a way to concretely have an ear to the ground in working class communities or campuses. There is no place to look to for grassroots independent working class opinions on political developments - no prol-CNN to turn on - so selling papers and standing at subway stations at rush hour has been really helpful for taking the political temperature of people around me.

hatzel

3rd January 2011, 15:02

So I don't see why anyone would attack the principle of paper-selling, or those organisations that do this, just because other groups can't afford to publish their own rag

Well, the idea of paper-selling isn't criticised here through some kind of jealousy that we can't all afford to do it :rolleyes: There is a rather legitimate concern that the only people who buy socialist newspapers are socialists. Non-socialists surely won't bother, in much the same way I'm not going to go out and buy some right-wing publication, because I'm not a member or supporter of any right-wing group or their ideology. Working on this assumption, the suggestion is that newspapers only act as a kind of glue for a pre-existing socialist group, to give them some central organ they can all look to to see what the group has to say about this or that thing, and perhaps find out about certain news items of relevance to socialists that aren't covered in the mainstream press. In this case, though, the internet is no weaker, as this is a case of specific individuals actively seeking out to purchase this paper. These same individuals could easily actively type an address into their web browser, which gives us a much cheaper and easier way for these stories to be spread.

Therefore, the question is about the effectiveness of the revolutionary press in spreading ideas. If the only people who would choose to pay for a particularly political newspaper are the same people who are already involved in, interested in, or at least sympathetic to, that newspaper's politics. I therefore don't see why it is any more effective in the modern day and age to direct these people towards a newspaper than towards a website.

The only reason I can think of is this talk of 'seriousness'. Perhaps there is a certain amount of kudos surrounding the physical paper. In the same way that an independent band with 5 tracks on their MySpace aren't really taken as seriously as another band who have burnt those 5 songs onto a CD, with a nice cover, and started selling them at gigs as a physical EP. This suggestion I might accept, that an individual seeing a political organisation's newspaper would be more likely to consider this organisation a serious one, willing to dedicate time, effort and money to the movement, which might encourage them to join said group. But this seems, to me, more about attracting socialists to one socialist organisation over the others, rather than attracting non-socialists to socialism as a movement...there is a serious question of whether such publications are used to try to get as big a piece of the socialist pie as possible, rather than trying to increase the size of this pie, so to speak...

Hit The North

3rd January 2011, 17:44

Well, the idea of paper-selling isn't criticised here through some kind of jealousy that we can't all afford to do it :rolleyes: There is a rather legitimate concern that the only people who buy socialist newspapers are socialists. Non-socialists surely won't bother, in much the same way I'm not going to go out and buy some right-wing publication, because I'm not a member or supporter of any right-wing group or their ideology.

There are a couple of posts in this thread which describe the core and potential readership of a socialist newspaper which you appear to be ignoring. Never mind, even if you are correct, this applies to any media. A non-socialist is not going to visit a socialist website either, unless they have some compelling reason to do so.

Working on this assumption, the suggestion is that newspapers only act as a kind of glue for a pre-existing socialist group, to give them some central organ they can all look to to see what the group has to say about this or that thing, and perhaps find out about certain news items of relevance to socialists that aren't covered in the mainstream press.This is certainly a function of the paper. It keeps activists in touch with each other and helps to shape a national response to problems afflicting the working class.

In this case, though, the internet is no weakerIn some cases the internet has been used to great effect in organising collective responses, and this appears to be a growing trend among current movements. The use of twitter, facebook, etc. have all been used to provide a rapid exchange of ideas, platforms for instantaneous communication and to organise dissent around various issues. Even something as trivial as 2009's Facebook campaign to get RATM to the Christmas number one in defiance of arch cultural capitalist, Simon Cowel's X Factor, took a collective act of will and demonstrated the potential for mobilising dissent. The Zapatistas demonstrated how indigenous, "forgotten communities", could utilise the global reach of the internet to facilitate their material struggle. I think it is important for the Left to get to grips with these new strategies of communication. But, as always, the innovation will come from activists, not from central committees or the editorial boards of party papers.

However, one thing the internet lacks is face-to-face contact; something the paper sale excels in. Other people have mentioned the importance of having a conversation, and face-to-face keeps that conversation more honest. Now, face-to-face contact cannot be under-estimated when it comes to actually mobilising bodies, along with their minds. So although the internet gives us more tools to use, it doesn't necessarily supplant or equal other tools we have at our disposal.

Therefore, the question is about the effectiveness of the revolutionary press in spreading ideas. But it shouldn't be an 'either or' question. We should grasp every available opportunity to spread our ideas, whatever the medium.

ComradeOm

3rd January 2011, 18:38

There is a rather legitimate concern that the only people who buy socialist newspapers are socialists. Non-socialists surely won't bother, in much the same way I'm not going to go out and buy some right-wing publication, because I'm not a member or supporter of any right-wing group or their ideologyThis is a baseless assumption. There is absolutely no indication that these papers go unread outside of their own groups or milieu. To take one example, I would think that the Morning Star's circulation is vastly greater than the membership of the CPB. Or indeed most left groups in the UK stuck together. Last I checked the paper's circulation as in the tens of thousands

And there are of course differing degrees of 'socialist'. No fascists are reading these papers (nor would you expect them to be) but there are a great many people who are sympathetic to socialist ideals without being fully paid up members or even consider themselves socialist. These are the people most susceptible to the alternative message that these papers carry

Working on this assumption, the suggestion is that newspapers only act as a kind of glue for a pre-existing socialist group, to give them some central organ they can all look to to see what the group has to say about this or that thing, and perhaps find out about certain news items of relevance to socialists that aren't covered in the mainstream pressEven if this were true then it would still be worthwhile publishing a paper because it provides a real focal point for a group. The mere act of putting out a paper and purchasing a copy entails a degree of involvement far beyond that demanded by a typical website. If a newspaper is a 'glue' then it is an exceptionally strong one that engenders a real sense of community/participation

The only reason I can think of is this talk of 'seriousness'. Perhaps there is a certain amount of kudos surrounding the physical paperAgain you have it the wrong way around. A paper does not bestow size and resources on a group but is a measure of these. A group that publishes a paper is 'serious' in that it is clearly established, committed and sizeable enough to fund such an endeavour. As opposed to a smaller organisation that may be fleeting or only organised on a neighbourhood level. This is not to denigrate the latter but to simply point out that the former is larger

electro_fan

3rd January 2011, 18:46

good post, but, i wouldn't be so sure no fash read them, a lot of them no doubt keep a very watchful eye on the left wing press, just as a lot of anti fash keep a look out for what far right groups are doing, don't think we should be too complacemnt

and of course we all know about agent provocateurs on demos etc

hatzel

4th January 2011, 00:03

However, one thing the internet lacks is face-to-face contact; something the paper sale excels in. Other people have mentioned the importance of having a conversation, and face-to-face keeps that conversation more honest. Now, face-to-face contact cannot be under-estimated when it comes to actually mobilising bodies, along with their minds. So although the internet gives us more tools to use, it doesn't necessarily supplant or equal other tools we have at our disposal.

This I don't deny. I just question whether one needs to have a big expensive newspaper that one has to charge for in order to do this. I mean, somebody handing out single-sheet newsletters technically gets this same advantage of face-to-face contact, but the newsletters can be given out for free, which might be somehow advantageous in and of itself. Does experience suggest to us that the act of selling the paper promotes more conversation than merely giving it away? Is their something specific about making somebody reach into their pocket for change which delays them long enough to make a chat more likely?

I would think that the Morning Star's circulation is vastly greater than the membership of the CPB. Or indeed most left groups in the UK stuck together. Last I checked the paper's circulation as in the tens of thousands

I don't know if we can call the Morning Star an exception, or the hard and fast rule. Of course they have a pretty wide readership, this I accept. Though most of us aren't publishing anything that can compete with that, as far as I'm aware...as much as we'd love to! In this case, their name surely precedes them. Decades of reputation building have managed to make it the socialist paper for anybody remotely interested in the movement. If those of us in other groups, particularly those with somewhat more 'niche' appeal, such as anarcho-syndicalists, Hoxhaists, whatever, were to start a paper today, it would be unlikely that we would ever be able to even hold a candle to a paper like that, no matter how much effort we were to put in.

If a newspaper is a 'glue' then it is an exceptionally strong one that engenders a real sense of community/participation

I said that as a strong positive for the medium of the newspaper :) Glue is important! Every group needs a strong and effective central organ, no matter what form it takes, this I don't doubt for a second.

Again you have it the wrong way around. A paper does not bestow size and resources on a group but is a measure of these. A group that publishes a paper is 'serious' in that it is clearly established, committed and sizeable enough to fund such an endeavour.

I think this is both the same. An established, committed and sizeable group will publish a paper, thus it's clear that they are established, committed and sizeable, and other groups will also publish papers, when they are established, committed and sizeable enough to be able to, in part to show that they are. This I don't debate.

Maybe part of me is just frustrated that I seem to float in circles that are far too limited in scope and reasonable target audience to really warrant a fully-fledged paper at present :laugh: No, no, seriously, I'm not here opposed to the concept of the paper (and would love to be able to get one out there), I just question the idea of selling the paper, and whether, particularly for smaller groups, giving stuff away (perhaps inviting donation) is a more effective means of disseminating ideas than selling stuff. It goes without saying that a fully-fledged newspaper is prohibitively expensive to just give away...

In short, I was using this thread as a means to gather ideas and suggestions about the most effective method for small groups to disseminate ideas and reach the target audience without selling papers or doing any more of that super expensive stuff :thumbup1: That is, the revolutionary press, on a shoestring budget!