Atlantis = North and South America?

[Dimentio]

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/lostcityofatlantis_files/movingship.gif
The City of Atlantis as described by Kritias in Plato's work.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/aztecs21.gif
The city of Ténochtitlan, Mexico

Plato defined Atlantis as laying to the west of "The Pillars of Hercules" (Gibraltar), and being a bountiful continent ruled by ten kings. Pseudo-scientists have usually searched for a sunken civilisation in the Middle of the Atlantic Ocean, while real scientists have spoken of Atlantis as an allegory or a myth founded in a Volcano Eruption in the Aegean Sea during the transition between the Bronze Age and Iron Age.

I have come to suspect that Plato might have referred to the Americas, or at least islands in the Caribbean region.

Firstly, the ancients did not view the Atlantic Ocean like we do. For them, the Ocean surrounded and consisted of the entire world. Plato would have viewed the Pacific Ocean as a part of the Atlantic Ocean. Thus, North and South America would have corresponded to a large island in the middle of the Ocean.

Secondly, the wealth of Atlantis as described in the dialogue is correspondent to the great wealth of Pre-columbian Native American civilisations. The architecture is also reminiscent of that of Central America, which contained very advanced cultures.

Thirdly, travels between the Eurafroasian landmass and the Americas would have been possible during Antiquity and before. Evidence of that exists both in written form (a story about how a Phoenician expedition rounded an island far to the west reminiscent of Hispaniola) and the discovery of old tobacco in the tomb of a Pharaoh in Egypt. That could be an indicator that there at least had been sporadic contacts between Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica during the millennias before the Christian Era. This hypothesis was proven by Thor Heyerdahl in 1969-1970.

http://www.kon-tiki.no/Images/kon-tiki%20nye%20nett/ra/Ra1og2VoyageMapSmall.jpg

[Rafiq]

Perhaps we should take this Plato fellow more seriously than we did before.

If he was right about Atlantis, perhaps he is correct about other things as well.

[Pretty Flaco]

Perhaps we should take this Plato fellow more seriously than we did before.

If he was right about Atlantis, perhaps he is correct about other things as well.

Perhaps we can base all of our assumptions on fallacies too!

But anyway... Can you link me to any legitimate claims of Greek contacts with the Americas? I have never even heard of this notion before. This sounds like another pseudo-scientific overanalysis of an ancient myth.

[Dimentio]

Perhaps we can base all of our assumptions on fallacies too!

But anyway... Can you link me to any legitimate claims of Greek contacts with the Americas? I have never even heard of this notion before. This sounds like another pseudo-scientific overanalysis of an ancient myth.

Not Greek but Phoenician contacts.

The Phoenicians, the ancestors of the Syrian and Lebanese coastal populations, surpassed the Greeks in colonisation of the Mediterranean, and even established colonies in Britannia in the 4th century BC.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhi/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=gqe

http://phoenicia.org/america.html

They had the potential to do so, even if it only was a once-in-a-millennia experience, and so the legends were born.

Remember, before Schliemann, Troy was considered a mythical city.

[Manic Impressive]

This reminds me of the story of the Imam who stood on the coast of Portugal and proclaimed (something like) "land across the ocean if we could only reach you" meh what he said was much better than that but I can't remember the quote. Anyway that was way before the Europeans officially crossed the Atlantic.

[Dimentio]

This reminds me of the story of the Imam who stood on the coast of Portugal and proclaimed (something like) "land across the ocean if we could only reach you" meh what he said was much better than that but I can't remember the quote. Anyway that was way before the Europeans officially crossed the Atlantic.

The legends of Atlantis persisted in all of North Africa well until the Islamic age. There is actually a famous picture of the university of an Islamic city in Spain from the 11th century which shows a map where an island is to the west of Africa.

[Manic Impressive]

I was more thinking of the discovery of America before Columbus but yeah he could have been speaking about America. There's also the theories about the Vikings crossing the Atlantic it does make you wonder if it was possible

[Dimentio]

I was more thinking of the discovery of America before Columbus but yeah he could have been speaking about America. There's also the theories about the Vikings crossing the Atlantic it does make you wonder if it was possible

They did. Leif Eiriksson founded a few villages in Newfoundland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows

So no, that is very kind of... proven. The vikings had settlements in North America.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Territories_and_Voyages_of_the_Vikings_blank.png/800px-Territories_and_Voyages_of_the_Vikings_blank.png

The step between Greenland and North America is shorter than the step between Iceland and Greenland.

[ComradeOm]

I have come to suspect that Plato might have referred to the Americas, or at least islands in the Caribbean regionAnd you've based this on the notion that the Greeks didn't know about the Americans; that there were rich civilisations in the Americas; and that there may have been "sporadic" contact between the Americas and another Mediterranean civilisation? I'm not sure where to start here - the problem with such ridiculous conjecture and hypothesising is that its difficult to find any facts solid enough to build on or challenge


The architecture is also reminiscent of that of Central America, which contained very advanced culturesNot in 300 BC it didn't. The 'classic' architecture of Teotihuacan dates from the turn of the millennium; the Mayans only really got going several centuries later; and that picture of Ténochtitlan is another thousand years after that

[Pretty Flaco]

Not Greek but Phoenician contacts.

The Phoenicians, the ancestors of the Syrian and Lebanese coastal populations, surpassed the Greeks in colonisation of the Mediterranean, and even established colonies in Britannia in the 4th century BC.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhi/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=gqe

http://phoenicia.org/america.html

They had the potential to do so, even if it only was a once-in-a-millennia experience, and so the legends were born.

Remember, before Schliemann, Troy was considered a mythical city.

Wow! It certainly would be very interesting if the Phoenicians did contact the Americas! :)
I see more legitimacy in this theory now, but it of course requires more evidence to mean anything.

And your first link is broken.

[Dimentio]

And you've based this on the notion that the Greeks didn't know about the Americans; that there were rich civilisations in the Americas; and that there may have been "sporadic" contact between the Americas and another Mediterranean civilisation? I'm not sure where to start here - the problem with such ridiculous conjecture and hypothesising is that its difficult to find any facts solid enough to build on or challenge

Not in 300 BC it didn't. The 'classic' architecture of Teotihuacan dates from the turn of the millennium; the Mayans only really got going several centuries later; and that picture of Ténochtitlan is another thousand years after that

There were peoples before the Mayans. For example the Olmecs. Both in Mesoamerica and Peru, archaeologists have found traces of advanced civilisations stretching back thousands of years.

Well, the Greeks were told legends by the Egyptians (who during Pharaoh Necho II had funded several Phoenician expeditions) about advanced cultures west of the Pillars of Heracles.

If we assume that it wasn't fairytales, than it could hardly mean any other place than the Americas.

[Rafiq]

Not Greek but Phoenician contacts.

The Phoenicians, the ancestors of the Syrian and Lebanese coastal populations, surpassed the Greeks in colonisation of the Mediterranean, and even established colonies in Britannia in the 4th century BC.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhi/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=gqe

http://phoenicia.org/america.html

They had the potential to do so, even if it only was a once-in-a-millennia experience, and so the legends were born.

Remember, before Schliemann, Troy was considered a mythical city.

I'm phonecian :cool:

Inb4 I get called a nationalist or something

[Rafiq]

This reminds me of the story of the Imam who stood on the coast of Portugal and proclaimed (something like) "land across the ocean if we could only reach you" meh what he said was much better than that but I can't remember the quote. Anyway that was way before the Europeans officially crossed the Atlantic.

Yeah, there was a ton of discoverys made in Spain and Iraq. Sadly the libraries were burnt down by khan and north African extremists who criticized Spanish Muslims for drinking wine and gave equal rights to other religions :( we could have known so much more

[ComradeOm]

There were peoples before the Mayans. For example the Olmecs...Who produced nothing comparable to the myths of Atlantis. They didn't even leave anything of the stature of Teotihuacan or Tikal. You can't roll all these "advanced civilisations" into one and assume that it stretches over three millennia


Well, the Greeks were told legends by the Egyptians (who during Pharaoh Necho II had funded several Phoenician expeditions) about advanced cultures west of the Pillars of HeraclesAnd this is the same 'link logic' that typifies conspiracy theories. 'Well A might be related to B which in turn might somehow be transmitted to C'. Demonstrating that something might be possible is not in itself evidence

And this chain is very tenuous - the second link you provided (with the coin) is laughable. Even if we assume that the Phoenicians made it to the Americas, which is a pretty big place, they must have been lucky enough to land within the sphere of one of these "advanced civilisations" (and not just, say, in pre-Columbian San Paulo) and then this information must have gotten back to Plato, via Egypt, without it occurring to anyone else to incorporate it into their own writings. And then Plato decides that he won't just recount the amazing tale of the Phoenicians, but instead make veiled references to Gibraltar. And if any one of these coincidences doesn't happen then the whole chain falls apart


If we assume that it wasn't fairytales, than it could hardly mean any other place than the Americas.1) Why are you making that assumption?

2) There is about two centuries worth of hypothesising (by crackpots) that generally places Atlantis 'somewhere other than the Americas'

[psgchisolm]

Some people think that before this the Egyptians had sailed across the Atlantic and landed in Mexico. They believe that the Mayan pyramids were created with help from the Egyptians who gave them geometry

[Dimentio]

Who produced nothing comparable to the myths of Atlantis. They didn't even leave anything of the stature of Teotihuacan or Tikal. You can't roll all these "advanced civilisations" into one and assume that it stretches over three millennia

And this is the same 'link logic' that typifies conspiracy theories. 'Well A might be related to B which in turn might somehow be transmitted to C'. Demonstrating that something might be possible is not in itself evidence

And this chain is very tenuous - the second link you provided (with the coin) is laughable. Even if we assume that the Phoenicians made it to the Americas, which is a pretty big place, they must have been lucky enough to land within the sphere of one of these "advanced civilisations" (and not just, say, in pre-Columbian San Paulo) and then this information must have gotten back to Plato, via Egypt, without it occurring to anyone else to incorporate it into their own writings. And then Plato decides that he won't just recount the amazing tale of the Phoenicians, but instead make veiled references to Gibraltar. And if any one of these coincidences doesn't happen then the whole chain falls apart

1) Why are you making that assumption?

2) There is about two centuries worth of hypothesising (by crackpots) that generally places Atlantis 'somewhere other than the Americas'

Why are you so aggressive?

Besides, if the Phoenicians landed in the Caribbean, on Hispaniola or any of the other islands, what would have marvelled them would not have been the refinement of the culture there, but rather the wealth of those islands. That impressed the Spanish explorers when they put their feet on those islands, and then the legends could have grown out of proportions. There is at least one testimony from one Himilco the Navigator who tells about Carthaginian vessels reaching the Sargasso Sea.

Moreover, if I tell you that there is documentation that the Phoenicians rounded Africa around 600 B.C, are you going to become even more angry?

[ComradeOm]

Angry? You misread me entirely. Dismissive, yes, but hardly angry. I can understand that I'm not being exactly cuddly here, but do you really want me to just humour you?


Besides, if the Phoenicians landed in the Caribbean, on Hispaniola or any of the other islands, what would have marvelled them would not have been the refinement of the culture there, but rather the wealth of those islandsWhat would not have impressed them is the impressive architecture, the large urban areas or the technological marvels. Largely because the areas in question entirely lacked these. The great flowering of Mesoamerican civilisation, to a degree that would have impressed the Greeks, occurred centuries after Plato had died. You can't just project this backwards and assume that there could have been an Atlantis there in 400BC because it fits the profile of a 1500AD civilisation

But yeah, its possible that some Mediterranean explorer found himself in the Caribbean*; and its possible that he made it home; and its possible that this grew into a tale of a fantastically wealthy and advanced urban society; and its possible that no one else thought this worthy enough to document; and its possible that it formed the basis for Plato's Atlantis. All this is possible. Is any one of these links probable? No. When taken together, is the whole hypothesis at all probable? Absolutely not

Furthermore, is there a shred of evidence to support your thesis? That is, is there anything other than conjuncture, circumstance and possibles? None. Which is why its so hard to take the whole thing seriously. There's no smoking gun, just moving from one improbability (Atlantis exists) to another (Atlantis exists in America) without any justification as to why we should follow your logic. This is pseudo-history

*And no, there is no real evidence that this was the case. The only pre-Columbian transit from Europe that has been verified and accepted by the mainstream are the Norse voyages. Suggestions that other civilisations had contact with the Americas are doubtful at best and, like your coin/map link, typically rely on ambiguous readings or supposed symbolism. Which is not to rule it out but to emphasise just how weak any such 'evidence' really is


...and then the legends could have grown out of proportionsWouldn't this imply that there is no Atlantis? That the reports were simply exaggerated tales of what was really a very mundane encounter? If so, isn't that just another way of saying that Plato was peddling fiction?

[Dimentio]

The thing is that most of the myths about great realms have had a grain of truth.

The Chinese in the second century had heard tales of a great empire west of the Caspian Sea, which was so large that it encompassed an entire sea, and was ruled collectively by a council of the elders who advised an elected king, and that it had several tens of thousands of li of roads, several hundred walled cities and had built rivers to bring water to those cities. The Chinese called this legendary Empire "Da Qin" or "Dajin".

In the Middle Ages, there was a myth in Europe about a kingdom in Ethiopia ruled by a christian king. And there was a kingdom ruled by a christian king there.

And yes, it is very much speculative debate, but why would Atlantis be placed far beyond Gibraltar and not in the east, where people already knew there were civilisations? Or in the south of Egypt?

While information about far-away cultures often have been incorrect, there has often been a grain of truth there.

If Archeology followed your device (which it sadly largely does), Schliemann would never have re-discovered the ruins of Troy, a city which in the 19th century was considered mythical.

And while the image of Atlantis might have been a figment of disinformation and fantasies, I still find it curious that it has been placed beyond the Ocean.

[hatzel]

Before I say anything, I'll just point out two things:


My favourite thing about this thread is the very first gif, with the ship. If only the boards had more jumpy animations, the world would be a better place.
I think it's pretty easy for Dimentio to think that ComradeOm's responses are with an angry tone. For some reason I always think that your avatar is your facial expression at the time of writing...



That said, let's get back to business. I do agree with Dimentio's statement that 'most of the myths about great realms have had a grain of truth'. I wouldn't even confine it to myths of great realms, there are a stupid number of myths which probably have their synthesis in eclipses or floods or anything else...so I'm definitely not repelled by the idea of trying to find the truth behind these myths, not at all.

Coming from that, I do perfectly believe in pre-Columbian contact with the Americas. Of course we already know that the Vikings got there (even though this was for a long time considered mere mythology), so I see no reason to totally dismiss any suggestion of Phoenician, Egyptian or Malian sailors having done the same, particularly considering Dimentio's picture about the prevailing currents facilitating this in a way, I believe, it didn't for the Vikings. As the Vikings themselves had intentionally sought new land on their voyages westward (though I admit that, from the texts, it suggests some discoveries involved being blow off course), we could easily believe that Mediterraneans too, particularly traders, would consciously seek new land. Add in to that how easy it may be, with the currents, to accidentally find oneself blown over there, and it starts to seem like a pretty plausible theory.

Let's all remember that there were African plants, mainly types of gourd, found in the pre-Columbian Americas. There are only two ways for them to get their. Either they were taken there by seamen, which would support the idea of pre-Columbian contact, or (the mainstream theory) a gourd would have somehow found itself in the sea off the African coast and then, with those currents, merely floated across the ocean, eventually reaching the New World. If a lifeless gourd can find its way across a vast ocean, I'm in no doubt a boat, with the added advantage of actually being able to navigate independently, could do exactly the same.

I'm particularly intrigued by the talk of tobacco in Egyptian tombs. Is there any proof of this? Is this conclusive proof of pre-Columbian contact, or could some other explanation be given? I mean, I don't know the details of this, and whether it has been shown to be New World tobacco. Is there a possibility it could be nicotiana africana, from Namibia? As far as I'm aware, this species of 'tobacco' is indigenous to the area. I don't know if there's any way to know for sure which exact species of plant this stuff came from, or whether we can just see that it's tobacco-like. However, if it's going to be buried with a pharaoh, it must be assigned some value. I have never heard anything about tobacco ever being used for any ritual purpose in Africa, or anywhere in the Old World, before being 'imported' from the Americas, nor have I known it to be assigned any worth. Definitely not enough to get it into a pharaoh's tomb. However, I'm no expert. Anybody know anything about this?

[Q]

I'm particularly intrigued by the talk of tobacco in Egyptian tombs. Is there any proof of this? Is this conclusive proof of pre-Columbian contact, or could some other explanation be given? I mean, I don't know the details of this, and whether it has been shown to be New World tobacco. Is there a possibility it could be nicotiana africana, from Namibia? As far as I'm aware, this species of 'tobacco' is indigenous to the area. I don't know if there's any way to know for sure which exact species of plant this stuff came from, or whether we can just see that it's tobacco-like. However, if it's going to be buried with a pharaoh, it must be assigned some value. I have never heard anything about tobacco ever being used for any ritual purpose in Africa, or anywhere in the Old World, before being 'imported' from the Americas, nor have I known it to be assigned any worth. Definitely not enough to get it into a pharaoh's tomb. However, I'm no expert. Anybody know anything about this?

Cocain was also found. See this wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact) on the subject.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Atlantis never existed, Plato just pulled it out of his ass so Socrates could have something to talk about; he even specifically mentions in his writing that it is a hypothetical (http://books.google.com/books?id=xSjvowNydN8C&pg=PA12&dq=and+when+you+were+speaking+yesterday+about+your +city+and+citizens&hl=en&ei=c_hlTIiOLcOAlAfBgJmtDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=and%20when%20you%20were%20speaking%20yesterday%2 0about%20your%20city%20and%20citizens&f=false) city. Part of the reason that only around modern times did people start taking the notion of Atlantis as a real place is because people in ancient times actually read Plato`s discourses.

[Dimentio]

Atlantis never existed, Plato just pulled it out of his ass so Socrates could have something to talk about; he even specifically mentions in his writing that it is a hypothetical (http://books.google.com/books?id=xSjvowNydN8C&pg=PA12&dq=and+when+you+were+speaking+yesterday+about+your +city+and+citizens&hl=en&ei=c_hlTIiOLcOAlAfBgJmtDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=and%20when%20you%20were%20speaking%20yesterday%2 0about%20your%20city%20and%20citizens&f=false) city. Part of the reason that only around modern times did people start taking the notion of Atlantis as a real place is because people in ancient times actually read Plato`s discourses.

Have you even read the first entry?