Axis Cooperation in WWII

[B0LSHEVIK]

Quick question....

While the allies shared intelligence, cooperated in operations and maneuvers, and much more, it seems the axis did not. Why?

[psgchisolm]

Quick question....

While the allies shared intelligence, cooperated in operations and maneuvers, and much more, it seems the axis did not. Why?
They did to an extent. They did less in eastern europe due to the fact of how stretched their frontlines were so they were very thinly spread out. In North Africa while Italy and Germany were allies on a political level, they very much so hated each other on the military level. In terms of Economic reasons, supplies were needed badly everywhere. Germany had a hard time supplying their own troops much less the other axis nations, althrough they did send some of the axis nations weapons not in the amount needed to turn any tides. Germany was the main axis powerhouse during WW2 most of the intelligence they recieved was from the British and revolved around France which was under their control on the Eastern Front they gave them the troops movements and when to expect attacks

[Die Neue Zeit]

Japan was too focused on spying on US operations in the Pacific, even to notice the Manhattan Project.

Germany was too focused on Europe to spy on US operations in the Pacific.

I'd like to know, though, the extent of espionage cooperation between Germany and Italy.

[Glenn-Beck]

Quick question....

While the allies shared intelligence, cooperated in operations and maneuvers, and much more, it seems the axis did not. Why?

There were some military cooperation between Germany and her allies like Italy, Romania, Hungary in the invasion of USSR.

[psgchisolm]

Japan was too focused on spying on US operations in the Pacific, even to notice the Manhattan Project.

Germany was too focused on Europe to spy on US operations in the Pacific.

I'd like to know, though, the extent of espionage cooperation between Germany and Italy.
Germany did send U-boats in places like the South Atlantic, Indian and Pacific Ocean. They used them to send important technology and agents. I'm not sure to what extent this occured althrough it was probably quite rare. U-Boat operations in the time period were mostly allocated to convoy raiding and stalking large formations of warships. I'm not sure to the extent of German and Italian espionage, it probably would've been limited to the North African campaign and related to the movement of the Allied forces and when they would send convoys. On any measure the British had cracked the enigma code and probably knew who the Germany spies were and had them executed or fed them intentionally bad information to try and sabotage the German army.

[Optiow]

I'd like to know, though, the extent of espionage cooperation between Germany and Italy.
It wasn't very good, but there was cooperation. The Italians hated the Germans because the Germans were more hard core, and the Germans hated the Italians because they were useless allies.

- Plus, they fought on different fronts most of the time. The Japanese were half the world away, and the only combined missions were with submarines. The Italians were too involved in North Africa and Italy, which Germany didn't really give a **** about. Germany focused on Russia and Britain, and Italy didn't give a **** about that. And Japan didn't give a **** about anything happening in Europe, because Italy and Germany didn't give a **** what was happening in Asia.

So that was why the Axis didn't cooperate like the Allies did.

[Sentinel]

In Finland, German troops were responsible of the warfare north of a demarcation line (approximately) at Oulu. They also gave an immense amount of material aid to the Finnish armed forces.

This said, Finnish troops did most of the war effort against USSR in Finland, and the role of German troops was never decisive as the most important battles of that front took place in the southern, finnish controlled sector. When Finland signed a separate peace with the USSR and broke their alliance with Germany, in 1944, they also forcibly removed the German presence in northern Finland.

The Lapland war is a minor, but still rather interesting part of the war that is often forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War


The Lapland War (Finnish: Lapin sota) were the hostilities between Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) and Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) between September 1944 and April 1945, fought in Finland's northernmost Lapland Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_%28Finland%29). While the Finns saw this as a separate conflict much like the Continuation War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War), German forces considered their actions to be part of the Second World War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War). A peculiarity of the war was that the Finnish army was forced to demobilise their forces while at the same time fighting to force the German army to leave Finland. The German forces retreated to Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway), and Finland managed to uphold its promises made under the Moscow Armistice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Armistice), although she remained formally still at war with the two Allied powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II) that were the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) and the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), one government in exile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_in_exile) in London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London) and the British Dominions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Dominions) until the formal conclusion of the Continuation War was ratified by the 1947 Paris peace treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947).

Date: 1 October 1944 – 25 April 1945

Location: Lapland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_%28Finland%29), Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland)

Result: Finnish victory, German retreat from Finnish soil

Belligerents: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland)

Commanders and leaders:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Lothar Rendulic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_Rendulic)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) Hjalmar Siilasvuo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Siilasvuo)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Matthias Krautler (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matthias_Krautler&action=edit&redlink=1)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) Aaro Pajari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaro_Pajari)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) August Krakau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Krakau) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) Ruben Lagus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Lagus)

Strength

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) 214,000,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) 75,000

Casualties and losses

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) 4,300–4,500 dead, 2,300 wounded, 1,300 captured
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) 2,872 dead or missing, 3,000 wounded

v (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Campaignbox_Finland_1939-1945) • d (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Campaignbox_Finland_1939-1945) • e (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Campaignbox_Finland_1939-1945&action=edit)

Finland 1939–1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Finland_during_World_War_II)

Winter War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War) – Continuation War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War) – Lapland War

[show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War#)]
v (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Campaignbox_Lapland_War) • d (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Campaignbox_Lapland_ War&action=edit&redlink=1) • e (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Campaignbox_Lapland_War&action=edit)

Lapland War

Suursaari Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tanne_Ost) – Tornio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tornio) – Rovaniemi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rovaniemi)

[Wanted Man]

They did cooperate on many occasions, but it didn't always go that well. Of course, Allied cooperation didn't go swimmingly all the time either.

[ComradeOm]

Cooperation implies a degree of equality, mutual respect and common goals; that's not how the Nazis rolled. A better term to describe the interaction with their so-called allies is 'collaboration'. Even where there were ideological similarities, local elites had little choice but to comply, with varying degrees of willingness, to German demands. These included labour, economic resources, logistical support, military commitments, etc, etc. The common thread is that everything went through Germans and towards satisfying German interests

The only real exception to this was Japan. But then Tokyo was effectively fighting an entirely different war, and had absolutely no interest in intervening in Russia until the Soviets had already been defeated. Italy is a more nuanced case, but then its primary role until 1943 lay in shuttling German supplies across the Mediterranean

[B0LSHEVIK]

Yea Im aware of the Axis formations rolling into Russia in the summer of 41. But thats what Im talking about. The Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, German troops in Russia did not act as one and werent even under a unified command. Instead they all kind of did their own thing when it came to supplies, defensive formations and lines, communications, etc.

Its no surprise that Zhuikhov's (i cant spell Russian) masterstroke (operation uranus) was an armoured spearhead directed at the Romanians; whom were under-armed, under-fed, and under-movitvated to handle such an event.

I guess its also fair to say that while Germans were fighting literally for the greater Deutsche-Reich, what were the Italians/Japs/Bulgarians/Romanians fighting for? A greater Germany? Lol.

[ComradeOm]

I guess its also fair to say that while Germans were fighting literally for the greater Deutsche-Reich, what were the Italians/Japs/Bulgarians/Romanians fighting for? A greater Germany? Lol.This sums it up nicely. In contrast with the Allies - in which the US played the role of the 'Arsenal of Democracy' and sent vast amounts of material around the world - the sole purpose of Germany's allies was to enrich/benefit the Reich. The Wehrmacht was not going to allocate resources to improving the capabilities of its allies' formations: it just wanted bodies to hold the rear areas and tie down Soviet forces]

That said, if IIRC all foreign formations fighting alongside the Wehrmacht were subordinated to German commanders, either at army or group level

[psgchisolm]

I guess its also fair to say that while Germans were fighting literally for the greater Deutsche-Reich, what were the Italians/Japs/Bulgarians/Romanians fighting for? A greater Germany? Lol.
The Italians trying to expand into North Africa but found the British to be a more than formidable opponent which caused Hitler to send the Africa Corps. The Japs were fighting for control over all of South-Eastern Asia. If they had take China and the U.S. had just rolled over and let them take the Pacific islands they would've invaded Russia. They would've take over the Southern and Eastern part of Russia. They already attacked them earlier in the Century(Russo-Japanese War) The Bulgarians and Romanians were basically bullied into attacking the Russians. Hitler in the end would've betrayed them and annexed them.

[B0LSHEVIK]

This sums it up nicely. In contrast with the Allies - in which the US played the role of the 'Arsenal of Democracy' and sent vast amounts of material around the world - the sole purpose of Germany's allies was to enrich/benefit the Reich. The Wehrmacht was not going to allocate resources to improving the capabilities of its allies' formations: it just wanted bodies to hold the rear areas and tie down Soviet forces]

That said, if IIRC all foreign formations fighting alongside the Wehrmacht were subordinated to German commanders, either at army or group level

Slight correction comrade. At least during the offensive on Stalingrad and eventual encirclement, thus operstions east of the Don, Romanian (in the north) and Italian (south) forces held the rear of the German spearhead. As the situation grew dimmer and Hitlers patience waned ever more, Paulus committed everything to the fight within in the city. All german troops, personnel, equipment, material, rations, medications, etc were dedicated to Stalingrad. He even committed his last armored reserves and infantry divisons, which bit him in the ass when he could not respond to the approaching soviet pincers. Anyways, in these crucial moments, allied-axis divisions on the day to day handled themselves. At least that was the case in those days of mid Nov.

And its not like the Wermacht command didnt order them, its just that it asked the impossible. For example German commanders in anticipation of the coming winter ordered the allies to dig in and build concrete bunkers and lines. Which they would have done, except they never received the material, as everything was being saved for German troops first.

Germans always blamed the Romanian forces for this setback. Nevermind that Wermacht commanders underestimated the Russian fighting capacity and strength. Oh, and nevermind also that attacking the city formed a salient in the general front, an obvious point of weakness.

[Pavlov's House Party]

I guess its also fair to say that while Germans were fighting literally for the greater Deutsche-Reich, what were the Italians/Japs/Bulgarians/Romanians fighting for? A greater Germany? Lol.

Romania joined for the primary reason of regaining Bessarabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia) from the Soviet Union, which was taken during the carving up of Eastern Europe following the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

It is also important to remember that Hitler sold the idea of a war against the USSR as a "Crusade against Bolshevism"; Germany's allies like Hungary, Italy, Romania etc. joined not for the purpose of enriching the German Reich but to destroy a powerful, hostile, ideologically opposed enemy right on the border of "Fortress Europa".

[B0LSHEVIK]

Romania joined for the primary reason of regaining Bessarabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia) from the Soviet Union, which was taken during the carving up of Eastern Europe following the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

It is also important to remember that Hitler sold the idea of a war against the USSR as a "Crusade against Bolshevism"; Germany's allies like Hungary, Italy, Romania etc. joined not for the purpose of enriching the German Reich but to destroy a powerful, hostile, ideologically opposed enemy right on the border of "Fortress Europa".

Thats a good point too. During the invasion, many of Hitlers generals, aware of Napoleon's catastrophe in Russia, warned that the best way to go about an invasion would be to take a 'liberator' stance. While the global propaganda said this, day to day operatioins in Russia by the Wermacht was one of total war and mistreatment of the Russian people. Which, would hardly see Germans as liberators in the face of such treatment. Yet many Hiwis (or White sympathizers) joined the ranks of the Wermacht too. Good point comrade.

[Red Future]

It wasn't very good, but there was cooperation. The Italians hated the Germans because the Germans were more hard core, and the Germans hated the Italians because they were useless allies.

- Plus, they fought on different fronts most of the time. The Japanese were half the world away, and the only combined missions were with submarines. The Italians were too involved in North Africa and Italy, which Germany didn't really give a **** about. Germany focused on Russia and Britain, and Italy didn't give a **** about that. And Japan didn't give a **** about anything happening in Europe, because Italy and Germany didn't give a **** what was happening in Asia.

So that was why the Axis didn't cooperate like the Allies did.

The oilfields of the east strategy did interest the German high command though they primarily aimed to achieve this via the conquest of the Soviet union and a drive then on the British emipire holdings in the east so they did have reason to cooperate with the Italians, by mid war Fascist Italy was really a puppet of the Germans and a regarded as a perceived hindrance as well.

[Astarte]

I guess its also fair to say that while Germans were fighting literally for the greater Deutsche-Reich, what were the Italians/Japs/Bulgarians/Romanians fighting for? A greater Germany? Lol.

Also its important to remember these were some ultra-reactionary fascist regimes that hated and despised Bolshevism. Franco even sent over a unit of volunteers; the "Blue Division", when the Nazis invaded the USSR specifically because they wanted to see it destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_in_world_war_2#Spanish_volunteers_in_Axis_se rvice

Also, on the other side of the world in India, the Germans and Japanese seem to have been supporting nationalist rebels against the British - the ultimate goal being to have India emerge from British rule as an ultra-nationalistic fascist power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I know the Japanese recived several weapons technologies from the Germans, such as the Japanese version of the Me 262 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Kikka), there are others, but I've forgotton them at the moment, I'll try to do some more research and remember them..

[MarxSchmarx]

Bolshevista and psgchisolm - I am verbally warning both of you not to use the racist epitaph "Jap"/"Japs". Anybody who continues to use this will be issued an infraction.

[B0LSHEVIK]

Bolshevista and psgchisolm - I am verbally warning both of you not to use the racist epitaph "Jap"/"Japs". Anybody who continues to use this will be issued an infraction.

WTF?

Is that serious?

Japs is a slur? I thought it was short for Japanese. Much like Mex or Ger.

Besides thats a term that is only in offensive in American circles. In countries that lack Americans' guilty conscience of having sent Japanese-Americans to prison camps during WWII, ie Australia, UK, Canada, its not considered 'derrgatory.'

I get the point though, my bad.

[Fylosoficus]

Also, on the other side of the world in India, the Germans and Japanese seem to have been supporting nationalist rebels against the British - the ultimate goal being to have India emerge from British rule as an ultra-nationalistic fascist power?



Indonesia would be a better example, it even ended the Dutch colonial rule there.

Can't link but see Japanese occupation of Indonesia (on wikipedia) for more.

[MarxSchmarx]

Bolshevista and psgchisolm - I am verbally warning both of you not to use the racist epitaph "Jap"/"Japs". Anybody who continues to use this will be issued an infraction. WTF?

Is that serious?



You can read all about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap


In countries that lack Americans' guilty conscience of having sent Japanese-Americans to prison camps during WWII, ie Australia, UK, Canada, its not considered 'derrgatory.'

I don't know for sure about the UK, but Australia and Canada both interned their citizens of Japanese descent and Japanese civilians. As did Mexico and several Latin American countries, for the record. In any case, in the UK (or at least London) the term is considered derogatory.