Should We Support the Kibbutz Movement?

[Soseloshvili]

I'm sure many of you are aware of the Kibbutz Movement - a Collectivist, Zionist movement in Israel.

I find that it has a lot in common with Anarchist-styled collectives, and is really pro-working class. It's definitely one of the most left-wing shades of modern Zionism.

What's everyone's opinions? I mean, I know about half of the population of Revleft is going to go *GASP* ZIONISM! *GASP* and respond with something verging on anti-semitic, but honestly, what's your opinion?

I mean, we have to represent the workers, including the Israeli working class (don't tell me there isn't one, Jewish workers in Israel may not be in the same boat as many Palestinians, but they're still bad off).

So, honestly, should we be supporting the Kibbutzim?

[Die Neue Zeit]

They failed before and they'll fail again.

[FreeFocus]

Left-wing Zionism. lol. :lol:

When people participating in the kibbutz acknowledge they're on stolen Palestinian land, open the communities up to Palestinians, and possibly support restoring the original village names, then maybe. Until then, we shouldn't be supporting jack shit that racist imperialists participate in.

If you do have any relevant statistics or information about the kibbutz being more supportive of Palestinians than mainstream Israeli society, or a very small percentage of them supporting Israeli wars against Arabs, I would be interested in seeing them. Otherwise I don't think it's unreasonable to dismiss this outright.

[Rêve Rouge]

They can only last for so long. They're surrounded by capitalism. It's only a matter of time until capitalism engulfs them.

[Soseloshvili]

They can only last for so long. They're surrounded by capitalism. It's only a matter of time until capitalism engulfs them.

Well, the same thing can be said for the entire Anarchist / Communist movement. Really.

It's not a question of whether they'll fail or not. It's a question of whether the idea is worth supporting.

[freepalestine]

What's everyone's opinions? I mean, I know about half of the population of Revleft is going to go *GASP* ZIONISM! *GASP* and respond with something verging on anti-semitic, but honestly, what's your opinion?

......So, honestly, should we be supporting the Kibbutzim?dkhead.
the kibbutz are a business and racist-just like the kibutz trade unions-histradut




http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10379.shtml
Histadrut: Israel's racist "trade union"


Tony Greenstein, The Electronic Intifada, 10 March 2009
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11043.shtml
(kibbutz)"Redeeming" the land:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-dagan/kibbutz-diary-business-sa_b_645500.html
kibbutz savvy:




They failed before and they'll fail again.
have they failed-if so ,how?

[RED DAVE]

They can only last for so long. They're surrounded by capitalism. It's only a matter of time until capitalism engulfs them.This happened a long time ago. They're basically businesses now.

RED DAVE

[gorillafuck]

No. Kibbutz are a form of racism and colonialism.

[Red Commissar]

I'm not familiar with specific details of their early days, but their ideals is gone now. They're subsidized by the state and maintained for "cultural" purposes and showcase to some tourist groups.

[Die Neue Zeit]

have they failed-if so ,how?

Leaving completely aside the problem posed by Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, some here have posted about cooperative utopianism leading to businesses.

[Devrim]

Well, the same thing can be said for the entire Anarchist / Communist movement. Really.

I don't think so. It is impossible for the working class to develop an economic base with capitalism as the raising bourgeoise did during the feudal period.

I don't think that that applies to political ideas too.

Devrim

[ed miliband]

My dad's a Zionist; when that ship carrying aid to Gaza was raided earlier this year he said it should have been blown up*. Yeah. And the reason for his Zionism is that he read a book on the Kibbutz system when he was a teenager in the seventies. I dunno how that transformed into violent support for every action of the Israeli state but it did, and fuck the Kibbutz for that.

*Although I'm not entirely sure how serious he was with this comment - he likes saying stuff to shock / piss people off.

[freepalestine]

Leaving completely aside the problem posed by Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, some here have posted about cooperative utopianism leading to businesses.yeh.



--------------------------------------------------------

"Redeeming" the land: from kibbutzniks to Hilltop Youth
Carmelle Wolfson, The Electronic Intifada, 1 February 2010

http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/2/100201-settlers.jpg
Israeli soldiers standing near Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. (Mouid Ashqar/MaanImages (http://www.maanimages.com))


"Organic eggs labeled 'Harduf' are coming from a Jewish settlement in the West Bank," I exclaim to my aunt over the phone to the kibbutz that allegedly harvested the eggs. "There is no way," she says, astonished. Eventually she comes to believe the validity of this claim. "We all buy them," she admits, adding that it's what they sell at the kibbutz grocery. "I don't think people in Harduf know."

The Harduf organic food company is managed by one kibbutz member, but owned by Israeli food giant Tnuva. According to the Israeli daily Haaretz and the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom, Tnuva buys the organic eggs from illegal outpost Gvaot Olam near the West Bank Palestinian village Yanoun.

The anthroposophic community of Harduf, while distinguishing itself from the kibbutz movement, comes from the kibbutz tradition -- a Socialist Zionist agricultural commune built on avodah ivrit (exclusively Jewish labor). Kibbutzim, once regarded as utopian communes, in recent years have moved towards private ownership, graded wages and hierarchical governing bodies, while farming is being replaced by production plants and industrial companies.

The kibbutz was instrumental in defining territory for the Jewish State of Israel. Yitzhak Tabenkin, a spiritual leader of the kibbutz movement, described the movement as "a builder of communal settlements whose aim is to colonize the country in order to establish a territory for the Jewish people."

Most kibbutzim were strategically situated on the peripheries. Before and during the 1948 War kibbutzniks fought in the Haganah military underground to hold their settlements and later went on to establish the "Israel Defense Forces." Kibbutzniks also formed a major part of Israel's military elite up until the past decade.

"They were the pioneers of this colonization, even though ideologically at least some of them objected the colonization and that way of expelling the Palestinians," points out Eitan Bronstein from Zochrot, an Israeli organization that educates citizens about the Nakba (Arabic for catastrophe, referring to the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians by Israel in 1948). In many cases they settled Palestinian houses and cultivated and picked the fruits of Palestinians' fields. "The new practice of the Zionists was that after buying land, they did what they call redeeming the land. It means that after buying that land only Jews can live off that land," explains Bronstein.

By the late 1970s the political climate shifted to the right as the government liberalized the Israeli economy. The history of the kibbutz's rise and fall is commonly understood as stemming from massive organizational debts and the dismantling of the Jewish labor economy, in turn shifting people's relation to communal values. This led towards an industrial economy and eventual privatization.

But a central factor in this transformation often left unmentioned is that after the 1967 war the value of the kibbutz as a frontline force had become obsolete. The then burgeoning settler movement soon came to replace the kibbutz as a central colonizing body. Occupying Palestinian land and cultivating it to be inhabited by exclusively Jewish communities, the strategies of settlers are not much different than early kibbutzniks.

Some Jewish settlements positioning themselves deep inside the West Bank and far beyond the Green Line have even called themselves kibbutzim. Recently, an outpost was erected under the name "Kibbutz Givat Menachem," pointing out that both kibbutzim and illegal settlement outposts in the West Bank were established on Palestinian land and should not be treated differentially. The "kibbutz" was evacuated in November.

The so-called "Hilltop Youth," young devoutly religious settlers committed to the idea of an ethnically exclusive socialist commune of God (a socialism derived from Jewish scripture rather than Marxism) are restoring the Socialist Zionist tradition. Setting up caravans as illegal outposts in the West Bank, farming the land, and using violence to deter Palestinians from reclaiming their fields, The Hilltop Youth are the new frontier, renewing the custom of avodah ivrit lost to the free market economy. From these outposts, Jewish settlements in the West Bank can grow.

Movement leader Avri Ran is the founder of the Gvaot Olam illegal outpost farm, where Harduf gets its eggs. Organic vegetables, fruit and dairy are cultivated by an exclusively Jewish workforce and then sold at most natural food stores in Israel. Ran, an Israeli army reserve captain, is a kibbutznik himself who grew up on Kibbutz Nir Chen according to IsraelNationalNews.com. The kibbutz is in the Negev desert less than 30 kilometers northeast of the Gaza Strip.

I asked a relative in Kibbutz Hatzor (about 40 kilometers south of Tel Aviv) what he thinks about the comparison of settlers to kibbutzniks. Hatzor is a Hashomer Hatzair kibbutz, one of the most leftist and secular youth movements amongst the kibbutzim (originally affiliated with the International Revolutionary Marxist Center and now associated with the Zionist social democratic party Meretz). "The prevailing attitude among 'our' kibbutz movement," he says, framing it in the context of Israel's internal religious and secular divide, "Is that there's a distinct difference between the absolute need for a state, and the steps that were taken to realize that need, and the approach that says that the land is God-given and thus there's only one legitimate claim."

The Arab-Jewish border in the 1947 UN partition plan ran right through Hatzor's fields, as my uncle himself has told me. Before Hatzor existed, Palestinians lived in the area, but after Israel's declaration a battle between Israeli and Egyptian forces in the south resulted in the Palestinians being pushed south into Gaza. Now, not a single Palestinian can be seen on the kibbutz.

On Hashomer Hatzair Kibbutz Lehavot Haviva -- just west of Israel's boundary with the West Bank, kibbutz members aided the army in expelling and preventing the return of the Palestinian residents from Khirbet al-Jalama after the 1948 War. These actions, which included blowing up the remaining Palestinian homes, were carried out despite an Israeli court decision to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes.

The irony of this Israeli political division is that the Hilltop Youth, who have gained international notoriety for being on the vanguard of Palestinian dispossession and racism, generally live in open fields on hilltops inside their own caravans. Meanwhile, the movement considered the source of Israel's moral consciousness wiped out Palestinian villages and forcefully ejected Palestinians from their homes.

Carmelle Wolfson is an independent Canadian journalist based in Jaffa. This column was originally published on The Daily Nuisance (www.thedailynuisance.com (http://www.thedailynuisance.com/)) and is republished with the author's permission.

[Spawn of Stalin]

There's nothing even remotely worth supporting. In terms of operations they are closer to modern western profit driven co-operatives (like the British Co-Op Society) than communes based on the idea of everyone working and everyone benefitting on an egalitarian basis. More importantly, you said yourself that it is a Zionist movement, and Zionist movements need to be eradicated regardless of how "pro-working class" they may seem. Which by the way they are not, there may be some elements within that are pro-Jewish working class, but if they were genuinely pro-working class they would spend their progressive energy fighting the Israeli state, not sitting around ignoring (or applauding) their crimes against humanity.

To sum up: They support the existence of the Israeli state, that should be enough to make you despise them.

[Rafiq]

The Kibbutz are a bit too primitive, in my opinion.

I don't think they can work without overthrowing Capitalism that surrounds them, just saying.

[Rafiq]

Well, the same thing can be said for the entire Anarchist / Communist movement. Really.

It's not a question of whether they'll fail or not. It's a question of whether the idea is worth supporting.

Not necessarily.

We aren't planning on starting primitive style Communes in the middle of world Capitalism.

Our goal is to overthrow Capitalism, not create primitive communes surrounded by Capitalism.

[blake 3:17]

Out now! http://www.bdsmovement.net/

A Jew anti-Zionist friend became an anti-Zionist through his experience on a kibbutz. The level of racism shocked his then liberal self.

[Widerstand]

The way the Kibbutz used to be structured in their early days is certainly interesting and mildly reminiscent of what Anarchist societies might look like. The environment in which they were erected and the mindset with which they associated is problematic at best. What they are nowadays is an outright failure - I don't think any still they exist in the way they used to.

Chomsky talks about Kibbutz on occasions, in fact he lived in one:

http://www.chomsky.info/books/reader01.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/11/chomsky-on-the-death-of-the-kibbutz-also-hezbollah/66621/

[Spawn of Stalin]

I don't think they can work without overthrowing Capitalism that surrounds them, just saying.

I don't think the fact that they are primitive or not actively fighting capitalism should be a factor in whether or not they are worthy of our support. I still support the existence of the EZLN's "liberated zones", it is true that they are doing little or nothing to rid Mexico of a government which is corrupt to the core, and I don't consider myself to be ideologically close to them, but they are certainly not reactionary, and they aren't really doing anything wrong (though they might not be doing enough right. The opposite is true with the Kibbutz, they are Zionist, therefor, reactionary, which is why the question whether or not we should support them should not be a question at all. We would not support the Zionist state if it switched to socialism, because it would still be a Zionist state, so why should be support the Kibbutz?

[Robocommie]

Out now! http://www.bdsmovement.net/

A Jew anti-Zionist friend became an anti-Zionist through his experience on a kibbutz. The level of racism shocked his then liberal self.

Bit of a tragic name though... BDS-M...ovement. :p

[Delenda Carthago]

Left-wing Zionism. lol. :lol:



Its like nationalist anarchists!:laugh:

[blake 3:17]

BDS-M...ovement

The jokes fly around here. Bondage Domination and Sadism without Masochism? All top, no bottom?


The way the Kibbutz used to be structured in their early days is certainly interesting and mildly reminiscent of what Anarchist societies might look like. The environment in which they were erected and the mindset with which they associated is problematic at best.

There were a number of anarcho-Zionists in the teens that are of interest intellectually -- Kafka and Benjamin (who didn't make it) Buber and Scholem (who did).

I compare Canadian colonialism to Israeli colonialism often -- my ancestors crimes are viciously repulsives but the Israeli settlement has been so fast and vicious

[RadioRaheem84]

Kibutz movement to me is like National Syndicalism.

Reminds me of the anti-communist, anti-leftist, Peronist syndicalists of the Recovered factories movement in Argentina.

Just because there may be worker participation in industry or collectives doesn't mean that it's socialism.

There must be a change in society too.

[Soseloshvili]

I compare Canadian colonialism to Israeli colonialism often -- my ancestors crimes are viciously repulsives but the Israeli settlement has been so fast and vicious

I don't think the colonization of the Native peoples (at least in this country) compares to the colonization of Palestine. Here, it was mainly just a matter of forcing the Natives to take sides, and then a lot of forcing our culture upon them. In the USA... things were a bit different, and such a comparison may be reasonable.

The Native peoples are poor, don't get me wrong, ... believe me, I lived on a reserve for a while, I know... but it doesn't compare to Palestine.

It's like saying... it's like saying that the shooting of the communards is equivalent to the holocaust (that example was random, but none-the-less, fitting).

now, to everyone else.

Okay, so, most of you seem to have proven that the Kibbutzim are mainly Racist. Meaning, that they're definitely not worth supporting. However.

We have also proven that they were at least founded upon ideals similar to those of Anarchist communes (minus the Zionism).

I've always held the opinion that Zionism isn't always anti-Arab. The concept of Jews returning to Israel isn't mutually exclusive to "No Muslims Allowed". My mother was Jewish, meaning I'm Jewish, and thought I in no way condone any of Israel's crimes against humanity, I do get the feeling that we've quite demonized the Israelis. Before you criticize me, hear me out, and let's put this to rest.

So, I have to ask the question.

Is there any evidence of a Kibbutz which has welcomed Palestinians in? Even only one?

Because, really, if there is, we should support it.

[freepalestine]

So, I have to ask the question.

Is there any evidence of a Kibbutz which has welcomed Palestinians in? Even only one?..
why would a racist group such as the kibbutz welcome palestinians. they were at the forefront of the ethnic cleansing.and stealing palestinan land.


..... Because, really, if there is, we should support it.who's "we"??

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

None that I know of. I've had former kibbutzim in classes at my university and not only did he also serve in the IDF (and the Gaza War) but he is VERY MUCH a Zionist and racist.

[FreeFocus]

I don't think the colonization of the Native peoples (at least in this country) compares to the colonization of Palestine. Here, it was mainly just a matter of forcing the Natives to take sides, and then a lot of forcing our culture upon them. In the USA... things were a bit different, and such a comparison may be reasonable.

The Native peoples are poor, don't get me wrong, ... believe me, I lived on a reserve for a while, I know... but it doesn't compare to Palestine.

It's like saying... it's like saying that the shooting of the communards is equivalent to the holocaust (that example was random, but none-the-less, fitting).

now, to everyone else.

Okay, so, most of you seem to have proven that the Kibbutzim are mainly Racist. Meaning, that they're definitely not worth supporting. However.

We have also proven that they were at least founded upon ideals similar to those of Anarchist communes (minus the Zionism).

I've always held the opinion that Zionism isn't always anti-Arab. The concept of Jews returning to Israel isn't mutually exclusive to "No Muslims Allowed". My mother was Jewish, meaning I'm Jewish, and thought I in no way condone any of Israel's crimes against humanity, I do get the feeling that we've quite demonized the Israelis. Before you criticize me, hear me out, and let's put this to rest.

No, Canada is a settler state just like Israel and justifies its existence on the same racist grounds. To be sure, Israel's colonization and occupation of Palestine is hard to parallel, because of how brazen it was and is, in the 20th and 21st centuries, after we've seen these horrors perpetrated in the Americas and Africa (especially South Africa). In addition, Israel has no illusions about trying to "assimilate" Palestinians, so there were never any residential schools, just outright ethnic cleansing and genocide. There are differences, but to say it was "just a matter" of First Nations choosing sides and then seeking cultural assimilation is a gross oversimplification and obfuscation of the imperialist nature of the Canadian state.

Zionism IS always racist and anti-Arab. You have to understand that Zionism isn't just an idea, it was and is a historical movement (if you read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and Beyond Chutzpah, the origins of Zionism are discussed, as well as the goals of its framers. Hint: Ethnically cleansing Arabs was a prerequisite to establishing Israel).

Let's go back to 1900. I would definitely support Jewish migration to historic Palestine, under the condition that they go not as settlers, but a people with ties to the land and region seeking to reintegrate themselves into the fabric of their historic homeland. So you could have, perhaps, some type of Pan-Semitism. Instead, Zionism has always been a racist movement where foreigners illegally settled and stole Arab lands. The British, the League of Nations, and the UN were all complicit in this.

[Soseloshvili]

who's "we"??

Good point. I would say the left, but, I'm in no position to say the left should do anything.

Anyway. You would have to agree. If a Kibbutz exists that includes Palestinians, and treated them equally to Jews, you would have to support it, Right?

Not doing so would be Racist on your part.


No, Canada is a settler state just like Israel and justifies its existence on the same racist grounds. To be sure, Israel's colonization and occupation of Palestine is hard to parallel, because of how brazen it was and is, in the 20th and 21st centuries, after we've seen these horrors perpetrated in the Americas and Africa (especially South Africa). In addition, Israel has no illusions about trying to "assimilate" Palestinians, so there were never any residential schools, just outright ethnic cleansing and genocide. There are differences, but to say it was "just a matter" of First Nations choosing sides and then seeking cultural assimilation is a gross oversimplification and obfuscation of the imperialist nature of the Canadian state.


I agree - I'm sorry if that was taken as belittling the experiences of Native peoples, believe me, that part of history hits close to home.

What I meant to imply was that the sufferings of Palestinians should not be belittled as such.

I realize that the cultural Imperialism we subjected Natives to wasn't minor in the slightest, and often took on the form of outright genocide.

Now. Back to a Palestinian-friendly Kibbutz.

I figure, there's only really one place where this may be possible, the one place in Israel where Muslims aren't necessarily hostile to Israel, and maybe vice a versa - the Golan Heights.

I know that the Golan Heights contains a few Kibbutzim, I have a map of it on my wall as I write this to confirm that.

Since from what I've read, many of the Druze in the occupied Golan Heights have warmed to Israel, as they were pretty much oppressed in Syria... maybe it's possible that the local Kibbutznik's have warmed to them.

It's a stretch, but I figure it's worth some research to try and and least prove wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.

If such a thing exists, I'll be sure to post what I've found.

[freepalestine]

Good point. I would say the left, but, I'm in no position to say the left should do anything.

Anyway. You would have to agree. If a Kibbutz exists that includes Palestinians, and treated them equally to Jews, you would have to support it, Right?

Not doing so would be Racist on your part.
did you read the previous posts.do you still not know what the kibbutz stand for.and what they stood for in the past?.colonialism,ethnic cleansing and racism.
in my opinion zionism is not socialist,whichever kind ofzionism- to me its fascist.
and as you are being hypathetical,it doesnt matter what the kibbutz could have stood for,its well documented what they did and stood for.



....Now. Back to a Palestinian-friendly Kibbutz.

I figure, there's only really one place where this may be possible, the one place in Israel where Muslims aren't necessarily hostile to Israel, and maybe vice a versa - the Golan Heights.

I know that the Golan Heights contains a few Kibbutzim, I have a map of it on my wall as I write this to confirm that.

Since from what I've read, many of the Druze in the occupied Golan Heights have warmed to Israel, as they were pretty much oppressed in Syria... maybe it's possible that the local Kibbutznik's have warmed to them.

It's a stretch, but I figure it's worth some research to try and and least prove wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.

If such a thing exists, I'll be sure to post what I've found.why are those kibbutz on occupied land?.as for the syrian druze who stayed-you'd be surprised-they consider themselves as syrian.their family connections are to syria.and they arent treat the same by the isreali occupation,as the settlers there-nor have equal rights.
anyway back to the kibbutz ,like the rticle i posted said they are a business and they were until the 70s ,like the fanatic settlers of today.

[FreeFocus]

Here's one kibbutz in the Golan Heights: Meron Golan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merom_Golan). Unsurprisingly, it gets subsidized by the Israeli state, which uses it as just another settler outpost to "change" the demographic realities on the ground. You also have to question to what extent does Israel ally with the Druze to break apart pan-Arab sentiment? In other words, to what extent do Druze groups act as lackeys for Israeli expansionism? I wouldn't be surprised if they treated some Druze as "honorary Israelis," just as South Africa had "honorary Whites."

An Arab-friendly kibbutz would have been awesome. In fact, instead of settler colonialism, immigrating Jews should have sought that type of alliance and bridge-building in the region.

[RadioRaheem84]

Let's put it this way. I remember the old right wing Protest Warrior website that was founded by two rabid pro-Zionists. I mean pro Zionist to the fucking max, anti-Arab, everything. Plus, he was a raging objectivist right libertarian to boot and yet he said the Kibbutz movement was something he supported fully.

[Soseloshvili]

did you read the previous posts.do you still not know what the kibbutz stand for.and what they stood for in the past?.colonialism,ethnic cleansing and racism.
in my opinion zionism is not socialist,whichever kind ofzionism- to me its fascist.

I'd like to point out that early Zionism isn't close to Fascism. Need I remind you that many early Zionists fought alongside and supported the struggles of the Muslim peoples of the Caucasus during the Russian Revolution.

I agree though, today, Zionism has become a form of Fascism.


and as you are being hypathetical,it doesnt matter what the kibbutz could have stood for,its well documented what they did and stood for.
why are those kibbutz on occupied land?.as for the syrian druze who stayed-you'd be surprised-they consider themselves as syrian.their family connections are to syria.and they arent treat the same by the isreali occupation,as the settlers there-nor have equal rights.
anyway back to the kibbutz ,like the rticle i posted said they are a business and they were until the 70s ,like the fanatic settlers of today.

By your same justification of what they "have been" we should all just shun Palestinian Liberation because of what it "has been" previously - an Ultra-right (semi-Fascist) movement.

Of course, this is ridiculous. Of course we should support Palestinian Liberation. Just in the same way that if there was a Kibbutz that promoted coexistence, we should support it.

....

However, I think the above poster is right.

From everything I can tell from my research, though the Druze are mainly allied with the Zionist state (there's a Druze Zionist Circle... as little sense as that makes, the Druze being Muslims) they do appear to be still segregated into Druze-only villages, especially in the Golan Heights, where many have still chosen to retain their identity as Syrian nationals.

Also, I see no evidence of any Kibbutzim welcoming anyone who is not Jewish and militantly supportive of the Zionist cause.

Therefore, I think I can conclude that sadly, the Kibbutzim are not worth supporting.

[hatzel]

From everything I can tell from my research, though the Druze are mainly allied with the Zionist state (there's a Druze Zionist Circle... as little sense as that makes, the Druze being Muslims) they do appear to be still segregated into Druze-only villages, especially in the Golan Heights...

Of course there's a reason for that, and it would probably be exactly the same without any Israel anywhere. Namely, if you spend a few hundred years being persecuted as apostates from Islam which would of course be the reason they escaped up into the mountains in the first place, and the reason they fought alongside the Israelis in '48, against their oppressors, it's unlikely that they'd then voluntarily decide to settle amongst these very same Muslims. Which would explain why most of the Druze living alongside non-Druze live with Arab Christians, who don't consider them apostates. From what I know, most of the Druze who live alongside Muslims aim to live in villages where the combined numbers of the Druze and Christians exceeds the number of Muslims, so that they're not outnumbered...

[blake 3:17]

I don't think the colonization of the Native peoples (at least in this country) compares to the colonization of Palestine. Here, it was mainly just a matter of forcing the Natives to take sides, and then a lot of forcing our culture upon them. In the USA... things were a bit different, and such a comparison may be reasonable.

The Native peoples are poor, don't get me wrong, ... believe me, I lived on a reserve for a while, I know... but it doesn't compare to Palestine.

It's just the theft of land in an organized brutal and stupid way. South African apartheid based its system on our reserve system. The big diffrence between Canadian, South African and Israeli colonialism is that the South Africans were dependent on black labour.


Anyway. You would have to agree. If a Kibbutz exists that includes Palestinians, and treated them equally to Jews, you would have to support it, Right?


Huh?


did you read the previous posts.do you still not know what the kibbutz stand for.and what they stood for in the past?.colonialism,ethnic cleansing and racism.
in my opinion zionism is not socialist,whichever kind ofzionism- to me its fascist.
and as you are being hypathetical,it doesnt matter what the kibbutz could have stood for,its well documented what they did and stood for.


Try not to get baited by the foolish talk you were responding to. The Left historically has had a very tortured relationship to Israel. We need to think less of a pure justice or a perfect solution and take the steps to lift the sanctions on Gaza and defend social justice struggles in the region as a whole. I'm an advocate of one state solution but if it is two, then it is two.



I'd like to point out that early Zionism isn't close to Fascism. Because there was no Fascism. Zionism predates Fascism by a couple of decades.