Free Love?

[Sixiang]

I've read the Communist Manifesto 3 or 4 times now. Each time I take something new out of it and find some answers and some questions. Every time, though, I have not really been able to get the whole "free love" part of Chapter II. What is Marx talking about? I see that he is saying that it is hypocritical of the bourgeoisie to say that communists want to introduce free love since they already have it. But is Marx saying that under communism, "communal wives" will be had? I am referring to these lines in particular:


The Communists have no need to introduce community of women; it has existed almost from time immemorial...

Bourgeois marriage is, in reality, a system of wives in common and thus, at the most, what the Communists might possibly be reproached with is that they desire to introduce, in substitution for a hypocritically concealed, an openly legalised community of women. For the rest, it is self-evident that the abolition of the present system of production must bring with it the abolition of the community of women springing from that system, i.e., of prostitution both public and private.
So what I want to know is, will marriage be dissolved once communism is introduced? From an atheist standpoint, I've been fine with getting rid of marriage in its religious sense, but what about people having that one person that they are romantically linked with for most of their lives? Will the family be dissolved under communism? Any further reading or knowledge on the subject?

Anyone read Plato's Republic? I'm imagining that weird inbred pool of people all living together, with no real distinction between brother, sister, mother, father, etc.

[gorillafuck]

people that want to be promiscuous should be promiscuous and people that don't want to be shouldn't be.

I can't believe there's even still debate on this.

[¿Que?]

The people Plato was referring to, I believe, were an elite part of society. That ought to tell you something...

[Sixiang]

people that want to be promiscuous should be promiscuous and people that don't want to be shouldn't be.

I can't believe there's even still debate on this.
Not trying to debate. I honestly want to learn more and try to understand it better.


The people Plato was referring to, I believe, were an elite part of society. That ought to tell you something...
Good point.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

When the satisfaction of the needs and wants of all is guaranteed there will be no reason to enter into sexual or other relationships for economic reasons.

"It [communist society] will transform the relations between the sexes into a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene. It can do this since it does away with private property and educates children on a communal basis, and in this way removes the two bases of traditional marriage, the dependence, rooted in private property, of the woman on the man and of the children on the parents." - Engels

"Thus, what we can conjecture at present about the regulation of sex relationships after the impending effacement of capitalist production is, in the main, of a negative character, limited mostly to what will vanish. But what will be added? That will be settled after a new generation has grown up: a generation of men who never in all their lives have had occasion to purchase a woman’s surrender either with money or with any other means of social power, and of women who have never been obliged to surrender to any man out of any consideration other than that of real love, or to refrain from giving themselves to their beloved for fear of the economic consequences. Once such people appear, they will not care a rap about what we today think they should do. They will establish their own practice and their own public opinion, conformable therewith, on the practice of each individual – and that’s the end of it." - Engels

"...the relations between the sexes [will be] a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene..." - Engels

"The jealous person is in want of a slave; he can be in love, but this love is only a feeling of luxuriating in jealousy; the jealous person is above all a private-property owner." - Marx

[Sixiang]

When the satisfaction of the needs and wants of all is guaranteed there will be no reason to enter into sexual or other relationships for economic reasons.

"It [communist society] will transform the relations between the sexes into a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene. It can do this since it does away with private property and educates children on a communal basis, and in this way removes the two bases of traditional marriage, the dependence, rooted in private property, of the woman on the man and of the children on the parents." - Engels

"Thus, what we can conjecture at present about the regulation of sex relationships after the impending effacement of capitalist production is, in the main, of a negative character, limited mostly to what will vanish. But what will be added? That will be settled after a new generation has grown up: a generation of men who never in all their lives have had occasion to purchase a woman’s surrender either with money or with any other means of social power, and of women who have never been obliged to surrender to any man out of any consideration other than that of real love, or to refrain from giving themselves to their beloved for fear of the economic consequences. Once such people appear, they will not care a rap about what we today think they should do. They will establish their own practice and their own public opinion, conformable therewith, on the practice of each individual – and that’s the end of it." - Engels

"...the relations between the sexes [will be] a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene..." - Engels

"The jealous person is in want of a slave; he can be in love, but this love is only a feeling of luxuriating in jealousy; the jealous person is above all a private-property owner." - Marx
Thanks for those quotes. Very nice. Especially what Engels said. Makes sense. I didn't think to apply that whole property thing to it. Whenever someone in my family is getting married, the first question is what does the other person do? I.e. are they economically well off. When you take that out, love will be all that is needed, as romance should really be.

[Rafiq]

Whether he said it or not does not matter.

Remember, we're materialists.

Family will not be abolished, but family in it's current form, i.e. Bourgeois Family will cease to exist.

Both women and men will be equal.

So if you want to live with one Woman/Man and commit only to having sex with her/him, go ahead.

[Psy]

Whether he said it or not does not matter.

Remember, we're materialists.

Family will not be abolished, but family in it's current form, i.e. Bourgeois Family will cease to exist.

Both women and men will be equal.

So if you want to live with one Woman/Man and commit only to having sex with her/him, go ahead.
True, with the eradication of property thus the state (if it still exists) the state would no longer mediate over family property as property wouldn't exist. All domestic disputes would then be boiled down to issues communist society shouldn't get involved with unless there is abuse and even then hopefully a communist society would allow victims to simply leave abusive relationships without the need for a workers state (if it still exists) to intervene since the long term goal is for the state to wither away.

[Sixiang]

Whether he said it or not does not matter.

Remember, we're materialists.

Family will not be abolished, but family in it's current form, i.e. Bourgeois Family will cease to exist.

Both women and men will be equal.

So if you want to live with one Woman/Man and commit only to having sex with her/him, go ahead.

Great point. Good enough answer for me.

[28350]

The phrase free love is a little different than its use in this thread. The free love movement of the sexual revolution promoted sex being a casual, positive thing, and something that you should be expected to have with a friend.

While I am not of the opinion that sex with any number of people is bad, I think this is actually counterrevolutionary. The patriarchal control over women is still there, it's just got a different demand (promiscuity instead of abstinence).

[Palingenisis]

Family will not be abolished, but family in it's current form, i.e. Bourgeois Family will cease to exist.


I have a friend and know that she married for money, or at least the secuirity offered was a big part of the attraction to her of this guy which I can understand on a human emotional level...Because we always have pregnancy at the back of our minds I think we are "naturally" more concerned with secuirity than guys are and that influences are partarner decisions on some level at least. Under communism that would go.

[Agapi]

The phrase free love is a little different than its use in this thread. The free love movement of the sexual revolution promoted sex being a casual, positive thing, and something that you should be expected to have with a friend.

While I am not of the opinion that sex with any number of people is bad, I think this is actually counterrevolutionary. The patriarchal control over women is still there, it's just got a different demand (promiscuity instead of abstinence).

No. Free love doesn't even champion promiscuity, it's a movement which rejects all forms of sexual coercion and is therefore very feminist.

[Sixiang]

I have a friend and know that she married for money, or at least the secuirity offered was a big part of the attraction to her of this guy which I can understand on a human emotional level...Because we always have pregnancy at the back of our minds I think we are "naturally" more concerned with secuirity than guys are and that influences are partarner decisions on some level at least. Under communism that would go.

Absolutely. I think a lot of people today get married out of economic security.