DPRK living standards

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Can anyone show me a source on how the DPRK actually had a better living standard than the south until the 80s? I've read that a few places, I just want to see if there's any references for that so I can own a right-winger on another forum

[Red Future]

Yes its true , try and find a national stats website , but for obvious reasons the Data is not given out by the DPRK which makes it difficult to obtain

[Sir Comradical]

Life expectancy was higher in the DPRK until 1986.

It's all public data.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:PRK&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+dprk#met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:PRK:KOR

[Impulse97]

Yea but, if you look at it, it wasn't until the mid 70s that NK overtook SK. And even then it was marginal. Then in 86-88 it was the same until NK dropped to roughly 67.2 in 08 with SK being at 79.8 in 08. That's a pretty serious issue if you ask me.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[scarletghoul]

Its remarkable that the DPRK managed to overtake the ROK in the first place, considering every Northern city was literally destroyed by US bombs in the war. Yes there has been huge decline since the collapse of the eastern bloc, which makes sense. But the country seems to be recovering.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Its remarkable that the DPRK managed to overtake the ROK in the first place, considering every Northern city was literally destroyed by US bombs in the war. Yes there has been huge decline since the collapse of the eastern bloc, which makes sense. But the country seems to be recovering.

Agree. Quite incredible that the life expectency 2008 is 67 years.

[Lunatic Concept]

Cuba has an exellent life expectancy too. :cool:

[Thirsty Crow]

So, it has fashionable for leftists (self described revolutionaries) to engage in a competitive enumeration of respective "achievements" of respective class societies, just for the sake of stubborn defense of one of the two?
That's called putting time at a productive disposal.

[Impulse97]

@ killer.

I saw a Nat. Geo. documentary on the DPRK and it showed a brainwashed population who thanked the great leader for the medical care the nat geo team did rather than the doctor who preformed over 1,000 surgeries in a week. The hospitals they showed where stocked with modern equipment that went unused and it was dingy, dirty and dimly lit. Six lane highways went largly empty and every corner had a statue or poster of the dear leader. Unless Nat. Geo. is now a capitalist tool (sarcasm) then why are we still supporting this deformed workers state?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Journal of Third World Studies (http://www.anonym.to/?http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3821/is_/ai_n8879856): In a comparison of the economies of North and South Korea, Eui-Gak Hwang, while acknowledging the difficulty of making definitive comparisons due to the unreliability of statistics from North Korea, nevertheless tries to put economic growth on the peninsula into perspective by considering more than just GNP growth rates. Though the impressive growth rates of the 1980s led some to call the South Korean economy miraculous, and though comparisons today make the North Korean economic landscape look bleak indeed, Hwang maintains that in terms of per capita GNP and real standard of living, the southern economy surpassed that of the north considerably later than many would suppose-perhaps only as recently as the mid-1980s. And while the standard of living in South Korea is much higher today than in the north, Hwang points out that disparities in income, wealth, and spending are much higher as well. By many standards (life expectancy, mortality, literacy, access to housing) there may have been little difference between north and south during the "miracle" days of the 1980s and 1990s. Hwang's chapter is a reminder that questions of equality must be considered separately from questions of sheer growth, but his relatively positive assessment of North Korea ("people in the North appear to have a quite high standard of living with well-balanced rations from the government") would surely have to be revisited in light of recent disastrous famines and other serious economic problems. South Korea is facing its own considerable economic difficulties as well, of course, but there are no signs of mass famine and starvation.

Originally posted on CNN.com seems to have disappeared since: North Korea's economy grew much more rapidly during its "Chollima," or "rapid development," movement than South Korea's. For the first quarter-century of independent government, there were consistent indications that North Korea's per capita output surpassed that of South Korea's.

New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/business/worldbusiness/16iht-northecon.1.7137904.html): And while it had surpassed the South in the early years following the 1950-53 Korean War, it is now about the same size as the market value of South Korea's biggest bank, Kookmin Bank.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Two_koreas_gdp_1950_1977.jpg

GDP per capita (in 1990 Geary-Khamis dollars) 1950-1977; extracted from Historical Statistics for the World Economy, 1-2003 - available at www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_03-2007.xls (http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_03-2007.xls)

"By the 1960s North Korea was the second most industrialized nation in East Asia, trailing only Japan. While a number of internal limitations appeared, such as in the production of consumer goods, the national standard of living was considered by many third-world nations as an alternative to the capitalist model of development sponsored by the United States. Building upon the ruins left by the Korean War, the North Korean economy by the late 1960s provided its people with medical care, universal education, adequate caloric intake, and habitable housing. By the early 60s, many thousand ethnic Koreans in Japan began to migrate back to Korea, North Korea, where they believed they had greater opportunities .... North Korea's policy of self-reliance and the antagonism of America and its allies made it difficult for them to expand foreign trade or secure credit.In the seventies the expansion of North Korea's economy, with the accompanying rise in living standards, came to an end and a few decades later went into reverse. A huge increase in the price of oil following the oil shock of 1974 hurt the economies of countries throughout the world, North Korea among them. By the mid 70s, North Korea faced shortages of food and fuel. As conditions worsened, unrest grew. Dissidents,usually with their entire family were sent to hard labor camps in remote areas. In the 1970s, South Korea passed the North in GNP." - http://koreanhistory.info/NorthKoreanHistory.htm

Also should note:

"U.S. forces in North Korea would destroy most of its industry and agriculture, plus its transportation and communications grid. The ancient city of Pyongyang, the North’s capital, would be mostly destroyed by bombing..." - http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/a-state-of-mind/north-korea-and-the-korean-war/fall-1950-china-responds/1361/

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

BTW, the better economy along with the independence from Washington and lack of Japanese collaborators and investment is the reason that so many Koreans in Japan who had the choice between citizenship in either country chose the north.

[robbo203]

So, it has fashionable for leftists (self described revolutionaries) to engage in a competitive enumeration of respective "achievements" of respective class societies, just for the sake of stubborn defense of one of the two?
That's called putting time at a productive disposal.


Absolutely true and part of the reason why the Left has by and large lost any sense of purpose or direction. Its just hanging onto the coat tails of one or other capitalist regime. Its has gone less with a bang than a whimper

[pastradamus]

Interesting stuff. Well, I suppose the biggest change to the life expectancy in South Korea was the Boom of its industry in the 90's, while at the same time North Korea was suffering from Famine and a meltdown of support since the Soviet collapse.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

So, it has fashionable for leftists (self described revolutionaries) to engage in a competitive enumeration of respective "achievements" of respective class societies, just for the sake of stubborn defense of one of the two?
That's called putting time at a productive disposal.

While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's also important to come to as much of an understanding as we can about each class society, instead of just writing them off as such.

The point is not only to understand, but to change of course. But it can be quite difficult to change with no understanding.

[Spawn of Stalin]

So, it has fashionable for leftists (self described revolutionaries) to engage in a competitive enumeration of respective "achievements" of respective class societies, just for the sake of stubborn defense of one of the two?
That's called putting time at a productive disposal.

It has nothing to do with what is fashionable, how the hell is somebody going to believe you that socialism is better than capitalism when you know absolutely fuck all about the achievements of socialism throughout history? Discussion is good, or maybe we should spend all our time engaging in REAL revolutionary activities? If that's the case, why the fuck are you still reading this? Get out there and throw some bombs comrade.

[Spawn of Stalin]

@ killer.

I saw a Nat. Geo. documentary on the DPRK and it showed a brainwashed population who thanked the great leader for the medical care the nat geo team did rather than the doctor who preformed over 1,000 surgeries in a week. The hospitals they showed where stocked with modern equipment that went unused and it was dingy, dirty and dimly lit. Six lane highways went largly empty and every corner had a statue or poster of the dear leader. Unless Nat. Geo. is now a capitalist tool (sarcasm) then why are we still supporting this deformed workers state?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:
First of all, National Geographic is indeed extremely reactionary, this is well documented, there have been several books written on the subject. Secondly, 1000 surgeries a week? That is like one every ten minutes without stopping to eat or sleep, EVER. Aren't facts wonderful? Finally, yes, it is a poor country, as are most countries that are subjected to crippling sanctions. Deal with it.

[Spawn of Stalin]

To put things in perspective, life expectancy in the DPRK is nealy a decade higher than that of its ultra-capitalist neighbours in Russia, who auctioned off every last Soviet asset only less than 20 years ago, gets to trade with whomever she likes, whenever she likes, and exploits poor as shit countries for massive profit. Also, it's only a decade behind the US, which while it may seem like a lot, you would think it would be more considering how huge the gap between the countries is in terms of wealth. Even more remarkable when you consider the sanctions, imagine what could be achieved if the sanctions were lifted?

[Impulse97]

First of all, National Geographic is indeed extremely reactionary, this is well documented, there have been several books written on the subject. Secondly, 1000 surgeries a week? That is like one every ten minutes without stopping to eat or sleep, EVER. Aren't facts wonderful? Finally, yes, it is a poor country, as are most countries that are subjected to crippling sanctions. Deal with it.


Should have mentioned this. These where cataract surgeries which take only about 10-15 minutes from prep to recovery. They don't even knock you out they just use a local. So in theory he could be doing 4-6 an hour over 10 days? Perhaps, 1,000 is a bit much but, if he worked 12 hours a day he could easily do 600-800. If he pushed himself? Who knows?

Now, before all the hardcore comrades accuse me of being a reactionary I'm just trying to keep an open mind. Just because 97% of what the right says is bullshit doesn't mean they don't have a good thing once every decade or so ;). I think thats one thing the left needs to do, keep and open mind. You don't have to agree with it, just consider it, and make sure you don't dismiss something that may be true. After all, we don't wanna sink to the right's new low of close minded foolishness now do we?

Frankly, I feel 'Reactionary' is over used by leftists. Conservative would be more accurate. For something to be truly reactionary they would have to advocating reverting most of society by 80 years or more. Massive change. Just as we 'Leftists' or more aptly Radicals, advocate advancing society by 80 years (:D:D:D).

:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[scarletghoul]

@ killer.

I saw a Nat. Geo. documentary on the DPRK and it showed a brainwashed population who thanked the great leader for the medical care the nat geo team did rather than the doctor who preformed over 1,000 surgeries in a week. The hospitals they showed where stocked with modern equipment that went unused and it was dingy, dirty and dimly lit. Six lane highways went largly empty and every corner had a statue or poster of the dear leader. Unless Nat. Geo. is now a capitalist tool (sarcasm) then why are we still supporting this deformed workers state?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:
I am more inclined to listen to The World Health Organisation than the National Geographic, on this matter at least.

[DecDoom]

@ killer.

I saw a Nat. Geo. documentary on the DPRK and it showed a brainwashed population who thanked the great leader for the medical care the nat geo team did rather than the doctor who preformed over 1,000 surgeries in a week. The hospitals they showed where stocked with modern equipment that went unused and it was dingy, dirty and dimly lit. Six lane highways went largly empty and every corner had a statue or poster of the dear leader. Unless Nat. Geo. is now a capitalist tool (sarcasm) then why are we still supporting this deformed workers state?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

67% of the National Geographic Channel is owned by the Rupert Murdoch's "News Corporation", the same company that owns Fox News.

Food for thought.

[robbo203]

67% of the National Geographic Channel is owned by the Rupert Murdoch's "News Corporation", the same company that owns Fox News.

Food for thought.


Slightly off topic but I really wish people would not resort to these kinds of arguments. Ive noticed that its pretty prevelent among Revlefters.

It may well be true that the National Geographic Channel is largely owned by the Murdoch Corporation and this is likely to introduce a certain amount of bias in its coverage of some topic. However, it is intellectually lazy and unconvincing to rely on such an argument about bias in order to counter what has been claimed by the television channel, journal or newspaper in question.

If you are going to effectively counter a particular claim that is being made in the mainstream you need to do it on well researched factual grounds. Dismissing a claim on no better grounds than that its source is tainted or "bourgeois" in outlook is likely to arouse the suspicion of intellectual bankruptcy when it comes to actually refuting such a claim...

[Rafiq]

One would imagine the kind of shit hole South Korea would be if the United States collapsed, just saying.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Should have mentioned this. These where cataract surgeries which take only about 10-15 minutes from prep to recovery. They don't even knock you out they just use a local. So in theory he could be doing 4-6 an hour over 10 days? Perhaps, 1,000 is a bit much but, if he worked 12 hours a day he could easily do 600-800. If he pushed himself? Who knows?
I'm sorry but I really struggle to believe that there is a doctor(s) in the DPRK whose sole purpose in life is to perform 600+ cataract ops a week, I reiterate, that is over 100 a day, I know this is a common procedure but it is a remarkably outlandish claim that is going to need some serious backing up before any sensible Communist believes it. The claim of a 12 hour working day is also pretty huge, far as I'm aware it's actually the south which has one of the longest working days in the world. So I'd like to see some unbiased sources, not just American magazines reporting on how north Korea is the ~craziest~ country in the world.

[Impulse97]

I'm sorry but I really struggle to believe that there is a doctor(s) in the DPRK whose sole purpose in life is to perform 600+ cataract ops a week, I reiterate, that is over 100 a day, I know this is a common procedure but it is a remarkably outlandish claim that is going to need some serious backing up before any sensible Communist believes it. The claim of a 12 hour working day is also pretty huge, far as I'm aware it's actually the south which has one of the longest working days in the world. So I'd like to see some unbiased sources, not just American magazines reporting on how north Korea is the ~craziest~ country in the world.


The doctor was Nepalese on a 10 day humanitarian aid mission. The Nat. Geo crew was largely South African with a few Americans.

Granted, I didn't include alot of details but there's also alot of assumptions here. I'd watch what you base your opinions on.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[DuracellBunny97]

I'd try and avoid defending North Korea to make a statement about communism. Besides, life expectancy was only ever a year or two higher than South Korea's, and now South Korea has over 10 years on North Korea, just be careful that this right-winger doesn't "own" you with that.