Clash of Ideals

[Impulse97]

Long before I discovered Socialism, I had dreams of being in the US Navy. My father, both grandfathers and two uncles served. I wanted to be like them. Proud, fearless, tough, brave etc. etc.

I honestly couldn't see my life without service as a part of it.

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.

Not all WW2 German Soldiers where Nazis. Some fought for their nation first, regime second.

Is such a thing possible today? Can I fulfill my calling to serve my nation and still hold the principles of Socialism true?

Any input or advice would be greatly appreciated.:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[QueeRiot]

The difference between the people of a country (nation, state, city, neighborhood) and the government which purports to represent those people, between the individual and the whole, between you and those around you is vastly important. The interests an individual hold are complex to the point of being impossible to reconcile completely; a man may, for reasons unknowable, be at odds with even his closest friends. He may desire or need such things as no one is able to provide or fulfill, not even himself.


Yet, we do get on with others and in many ways quite well. Culture, the imposed values, standards and dreams of others, provides an avenue to existence with others who may individually desire very different things from those surrounding them. Culture, like the state, is artificial and subject to criticism and change; it is a constantly changing force outside the self; it is always unknowable fully. Culture cannot be relied upon to guide a mans life, it can only offer the appearance of common interests.


The state, the outside force imposed through geography, law and interests not fully known to the individual, cannot guide a mans life; it can only provide a structure one must live through. Disagreement with this structure causes poverty and oftentimes death. Prisons and poorhouses are filled with those who either cannot or will not live in agreement with the state. If we introduce culture (which cannot be set completely outside the structures of the state) we see that disagreement with others on matters such as how to rear children or when to mow the lawn can cause further alienation.


The navy is a tool of the state. While there are immense cultural influences surrounding a states military it is always a direct tool of the state and cannot be otherwise. To be otherwise would mean it has ceased to be a tool of the state and has morphed into something other. As long as a states military force remains just that, all those who join that force become participants in whatever that state chooses to engage in.


It is true that German soldiers and sailors fighting during WWII may not have desired nor approved of the actions their government, a Nazi government, were engaged in. This does not absolve them. Ignorance of state shenanigans is no excuse. Likewise, a desire to serve ones nation or state or culture could not absolve them.

[Manic Impressive]

Dude don't do it, you won't be protecting or serving your country just the interests of the rich. Which country is actually going to invade the US? no one so you can't be protecting your country only protecting it's imperial interests. You would be serving your country by not joining the military be anything except a tool of the bourgeois.

Here's a previous thread on the same subject
http://www.revleft.com/vb/discouraging-people-you-t142802/index.html

[Rjevan]

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.

Not all WW2 German Soldiers where Nazis. Some fought for their nation first, regime second.
As QueeRiot already said, this doesn't absolve them as it is completely irrelevant what they thought they fight for. The fact is that they fought for Adolf Hitler (to whom personally the Wehrmacht had to pledge loyality, btw, not "the German people", not "the German nation" but "the Führer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler") and the Nazi regime, not for an abstract "German nation", their "fatherland" or "the German people". Did they promote the interests of "the nation" or "the people"? No, only the interests of the Nazis who are not only responsible for causing the world but also their beloved "German nation" more suffering, death and horror than any imaginary "Jewish world conspiracy" could have ever dreamt of.

Tell me, how could you possibly "serve your nation" by joining the Navy? I'm pretty sure the territory called USA doesn't give a crap about you or anybody else fighting in its name. The American people also don't win anything from you killing and probably getting killed in foreign countries. The Navy isn't some independent force standing above the government but indeed a tool of the government to further its agendas. And the government is a tool of the bourgeoisie to further its agendas. So no matter what abstracts you think you fight for, you fight for the bourgeoisie and for US imperialism and that's it.

If you really love and want to serve "your country", i.e. its people, get active in revolutionary politics. That's a much greater service to the American people than fighting some "Muslim terrorists" in the name of oil compan... er, sorry, meant to say "freedom, human rights and democracy". ;)

[ZeroNowhere]

If I want to shoot something, do I fire in the opposite direction?

[Savior]

I think you should do whatever makes you happy...everyone deserves to be in the Pursuit of Happiness and if joining the navy, and come a revolution your experence will be apreciated. Use the system.

[Catma]

I'd say the only two reasons for a revolutionary to join the empire's military are to 1) gain military experience, and 2) win the military over to the cause.

I wish I had more knowledge about the mood in the military and the effectiveness of their conditioning. It's probably very good. You might go in with the intention of changing the mindset of your fellow soldiers and wind up altered yourself.

I can't imagine experience gained in the navy would be of much help, except in terms of leadership skills. That would still be dangerous considering the chance that you might get de-revolutionized.

[Savior]

This is true, but people with military experience would provide much help with the enemys tactics and knowledge, Theres gangs that have members join the military for the combat experence and knowledge.

[Jazzhands]

What you need to understand is that there's no difference between fighting for a regime and fighting for "the nation," since the state is what determines a nation. A nation is a set of arbitrary borders enforced by the state and agreed upon by other states. So if you fight for the nation, you fight for the state.

That having been said, the US Navy is the branch of the military that's least likely to commit particularly egregious war crimes, since it isn't used that much anymore as a force in and of itself. The soldiers that rape young girls and shoot civilians in the streets are US Army, Marines and Rangers. The drones, the flying robot guns that fly around a country indiscriminately killing people without warning are operated by the Air Force. The Navy might be used for some coastal artillery fire or something, but in wars of occupation that the US is constantly waging, the fighting occurs inland, near the major cities and the capital.

But you'd still be supporting the imperialist war machine whatever you do, so stay out of the military. Seek training elsewhere, and buy a gun as military surplus if that's a goal for you.

[RED DAVE]

What will you do when you're ordered to commit murder?

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

Why do you think your nations interest should be enforced over the interests of the global working class? (this is what you advocate, when you say you want to "serve your nation")

Are you a socialist? Is the struggle for socialism about the supremecy of the nation in your mind?

[Broletariat]

This might need a new topic, but isn't serving in the military similar to any other job under Capitalism really? You're further perpetuating the cycle of capitalist accumulation one way or another. Each different job has its own specific tendencies of helping capitalism, a factory worker might be ordered to ignore certain product deficiencies which could kill people, does this mean that factory worker can't be a socialist? Shouldn't we strive to get a socialist presence within the armed forces? The left seemingly abandoned such things with the anti-war movement where the army became rightly demonised, but that isn't to say all other forms of work couldn't be just as demonised.

[The Douche]

You don't have to be a soldier to organize soldiers. Encouraging people to join the military is anti-thetical to socialism.

[Broletariat]

You don't have to be a soldier to organize soldiers. Encouraging people to join the military is anti-thetical to socialism.
You also don't have to be a steel mill worker to organise steel mill workers, but it sure is a lot easier to do so AS a steel mill worker considering you'd know the ins and outs of the job as well as being seen as someone who knows what they're talking about.

I'm not advocating we encourage people to get any specific job.

[Rafiq]

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.

Not all WW2 German Soldiers where Nazis. Some fought for their nation first, regime second.

Don't be pressured to do this.

You aren't going to be fighting for your nation or your government. That doesn't exist.

Instead, you are going to be fighting for the ruling class!

Wars are not in the interest of the working class.

What will you get out of fighting? How will this benefit you?

Don't put your life on the line for the rich, don't fight for McDonalds.

Nationalism is stupid.

I say burn all flags of every nation, remember, the working man has no country.

[The Douche]

You also don't have to be a steel mill worker to organise steel mill workers, but it sure is a lot easier to do so AS a steel mill worker considering you'd know the ins and outs of the job as well as being seen as someone who knows what they're talking about.

I'm not advocating we encourage people to get any specific job.

You did say this:


Shouldn't we strive to get a socialist presence within the armed forces?

Of course we should do that, but we should not do it by encouraging people to enlist.

And you are saying "you don't have to join the military to organize soldiers, but its easier". And I don't think that is necessarily true.

[Broletariat]

You did say this:



Of course we should do that, but we should not do it by encouraging people to enlist.

And you are saying "you don't have to join the military to organize soldiers, but its easier". And I don't think that is necessarily true.
Right, I think it would be silly to encourage anyone to get a specific type of job, that doesn't hold any real political content.

I think it would be true as a general rule. You spend a lot of time with your co-workers so there's lots of opportunities for socialism to take root in someone's mind like that.

I think I'd rather talk more about whether or not being a soldier is any worse than any other job under Capitalism and why specifically. That would more quickly clear this up.

[Impulse97]

What if during the revolution, if we controlled a significant part of the military, wouldn't that provide us with a free Army in addition to what we could recruit?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[Broletariat]

What if during the revolution, if we controlled a significant part of the military, wouldn't that provide us with a free Army in addition to what we could recruit?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:
That's kind of what I'm saying. Why are we demonising people in the army when we may one day very well need their help.

Although if we controlled a significant part of the military we wouldn't need an Army. Ours is a social revolution not a violent one until attacked, and if we control the attacking force then there's no real need. But we're drifting a little into masturbatory politics now.

[The Douche]

Nobody is demonizing the military in this thread (yet).

Is being a soldier worse than being a regular worker? Yes. Is it some sort of "unforgiveable crime against the proletariat"? No.

Why is it worse? Because you literally enforce the rule of the bourgeoisie at the tip or your bayonet, or the push of your missle launch button, or whatever the hell it is you do for the military. (all jobs in the military exist to support those who engage in combat operations, afterall)


Is organizing soldiers necessary? Of course. Is it necessary to be a soldier to do it? No. There is no justification in joining the military, the mere fact that you have to ask "is there a contradiction here" should be enough to answer your question.



I would also appreciate it if nobody insinuates that I am "demonizing" soldiers, its offensive, I am currently, and have been for the past 5 years a member of the US armed forces, I do not hold some crude, assinine "baby-killer" approach to the question of the imperialist armed forces.

[gorillafuck]

Not all WW2 German Soldiers where Nazis. Some fought for their nation first, regime second.
They weren't all Nazis, you're right. Some were drafted. But as for "fighting for their nation", ya know, their nation was Nazi Germany.

Saying they were Germans fighting for their nation but they were not fighting for Nazi Germany is like thinking that you can be eating pizza but not actually be eating pizza.

[Broletariat]

Why is it worse? Because you literally enforce the rule of the bourgeoisie at the tip or your bayonet, or the push of your missle launch button, or whatever the hell it is you do for the military. (all jobs in the military exist to support those who engage in combat operations, afterall)

What makes this worse than literally giving the bourgeoisie their power to control such a force of people? The bourgeoisie need wealth before they can have an army, they get that wealth from workers.



Is organizing soldiers necessary? Of course. Is it necessary to be a soldier to do it? No. There is no justification in joining the military, the mere fact that you have to ask "is there a contradiction here" should be enough to answer your question.

It's not necessary of course not, but like I said it'd be easier to do so. I still don't see how there is no justification in joining the military.


I would also appreciate it if nobody insinuates that I am "demonizing" soldiers, its offensive, I am currently, and have been for the past 5 years a member of the US armed forces, I do not hold some crude, assinine "baby-killer" approach to the question of the imperialist armed forces.

My sincerest apologies for implying this. Being the internet this sounds like sarcasm but it's not.

[The Douche]

What makes this worse than literally giving the bourgeoisie their power to control such a force of people? The bourgeoisie need wealth before they can have an army, they get that wealth from workers.


The worker doesn't voluntarily give up his wealth to the boss, or to the state. The soldier chooses to enlist, knowing the realities of his duties.


It's not necessary of course not, but like I said it'd be easier to do so.

You just assume it would be easier, of course you don't have anything to base this on. For instance, if you try to organize a workplace, you might get fired for it, but the NLRB and whatever labor organization you were working with will invest resources in preventing this/getting you your job back. It is not illegal to organize at your workplace.

It is however, illegal to organize within the armed forces. So if I, as a soldier, were to attempt to form an organization which was in the slightest way effective, I would be subject to military penalties. And there are a lot more rules, and a lot more complexities to the military than to civilian life.

It would be much easier to build a movement of veterans, families, and others who sought the adress the problems of soldiers from the outside, and provide a network of support and propaganda for the soldiers who are still enlisted. And such a movement would suffer far less losses than one based directly in the ranks of currently serving military personnel.



But, that is not even the point of this thread, the OP wants to join the military and wants to do so in order to serve his country. This is reactionary through and through, and there is no justification for that kind of jingoistic attitude and it can't be rationalized by anybody who would seriously consider themselves a revolutionary.

[Broletariat]

The worker doesn't voluntarily give up his wealth to the boss, or to the state. The soldier chooses to enlist, knowing the realities of his duties.

The worker DOES voluntarily pick what job s/he works however. Although I guess that's not entirely true at all what with massive unemployment etc.

I think what I'm trying to allude to is that all forms of work under Capitalism support Capitalism. I'm not sure if I'm entirely convinced that being a soldier and physically enforcing Capital is any worse than say a Teacher that is forced to teach the status quo.


You just assume it would be easier, of course you don't have anything to base this on. For instance, if you try to organize a workplace, you might get fired for it, but the NLRB and whatever labor organization you were working with will invest resources in preventing this/getting you your job back. It is not illegal to organize at your workplace.

It is however, illegal to organize within the armed forces. So if I, as a soldier, were to attempt to form an organization which was in the slightest way effective, I would be subject to military penalties. And there are a lot more rules, and a lot more complexities to the military than to civilian life.

It would be much easier to build a movement of veterans, families, and others who sought the adress the problems of soldiers from the outside, and provide a network of support and propaganda for the soldiers who are still enlisted. And such a movement would suffer far less losses than one based directly in the ranks of currently serving military personnel.Good points all around in here. I was unaware it was illegal to organise in the armed forces.


But, that is not even the point of this thread, the OP wants to join the military and wants to do so in order to serve his country. This is reactionary through and through, and there is no justification for that kind of jingoistic attitude and it can't be rationalized by anybody who would seriously consider themselves a revolutionary.True true, that's why I originally suggested maybe this would be best in another thread as I wanted to inquire about this out of context of the OP's question.

[Mannimarco]

I suspected as much from a Trot.

[The Douche]

The worker DOES voluntarily pick what job s/he works however. Although I guess that's not entirely true at all what with massive unemployment etc.

What you're talking about is the "choice" between exploitation and starvation.

The choice that soldier makes is to be exploited (a regular worker) or the tool of exploitation (the tip of the imperialist spear).


I think what I'm trying to allude to is that all forms of work under Capitalism support Capitalism.

Not really, and this may be somewhat pedantic, but, most jobs do not "support" capitalism, they are effected by it, and their nature stems from it. The military however, actually goes into places and forcibly opens up new markets, so the military (i.e. imperialism) supports capital. And as these new markets open up, usually the jobs at home disappear, because the industrial base moves to the place where the military invaded.


I'm not sure if I'm entirely convinced that being a soldier and physically enforcing Capital is any worse than say a Teacher that is forced to teach the status quo.

How many teachers are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan to make way for new markets for US capitalists?



The job/task of the imperialist soldier is incompatable with socialism, but the same is not true for the individual.

[Broletariat]

What you're talking about is the "choice" between exploitation and starvation.

The choice that soldier makes is to be exploited (a regular worker) or the tool of exploitation (the tip of the imperialist spear).

I guess I'm viewing joining the military in terms of poverty draft situations where, we have massive unemployment at the moment and nobody is really hiring.




Not really, and this may be somewhat pedantic, but, most jobs do not "support" capitalism, they are effected by it, and their nature stems from it. The military however, actually goes into places and forcibly opens up new markets, so the military (i.e. imperialism) supports capital. And as these new markets open up, usually the jobs at home disappear, because the industrial base moves to the place where the military invaded.
I'm pretty sure that every job that currently exists today in some way shape or form supports the Capitalist mode of production. Otherwise it wouldn't exist under Capitalism no?



How many teachers are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan to make way for new markets for US capitalists?

None, however teachers do constantly justify these sorts of occupations and distribute that false-information throughout the populace.


The job/task of the imperialist soldier is incompatable with socialism, but the same is not true for the individual.
No disagreements here.

[Manic Impressive]

What if during the revolution, if we controlled a significant part of the military, wouldn't that provide us with a free Army in addition to what we could recruit?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:
I saw a statistic somewhere that about 60% of US armed forces said that they would disobey a direct order to fire on US citizens. First the citizens have to rise up against the ruling class and as communists it's our job to convince them that it is in their best interests, the military are the last group that will come over to the proletariats side. They are the bourgeois last line of defence and only with mass public support will they consider deserting. A one man mission to infiltrate a highly regimented hierarchy like the military and change their minds is frankly pretty delusional.
As for getting combat experience, really is that necessary at the present time? Or is it just an excuse to justify earning a living in a job that is harmful to the proletariat in your nation and around the world as well as your self

[Impulse97]

But, that is not even the point of this thread, the OP wants to join the military and wants to do so in order to serve his country. This is reactionary through and through, and there is no justification for that kind of jingoistic attitude and it can't be rationalized by anybody who would seriously consider themselves a revolutionary.


How so? I'm going to be furthering the Capitalists whatever I do. Every dollar I earn is taxed. These taxes pay for every single capitalist thing.

Whats wrong with a little patriotism? I don't by any means acting like those damn 'Tea Partyers' but, not even the slightest amount of pride? What is the point of implementing Socialism if not to better our country so that they may spread the revolution and better other nations? Why try to do such a thing If i don't give two shits about where I live?

The revolution is not going to happen anytime soon. Why not spend my time spreading the word throughout the Navy? I plan to go into the Reserves. Chances are low that I'll ship over to a war-zone. But, this still makes me a murderer?

I think you have a warped view of what Reactionary means. Is it helping the Capitalists? Yes, but, so is the person who works in the steel mill to make the warships! Does it further Imperialism? Yes, but, does the person who works in the refinery to make the fuel that runs the Empire's vehicles and aircraft not also contribute?

I have one or two views that are a tad less left than you and you call me a Reactionary? Knowing nothing else about my political views/actions?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[The Douche]

I would like to reply to that terrible post but I have to go to work, I'm sure somebody else will be able to handle it.

[Broletariat]

I would like to reply to that terrible post but I have to go to work, I'm sure somebody else will be able to handle it.
I would expect more respect on the learning forum, but I guess the internet keeps such things in short supply.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

What if during the revolution, if we controlled a significant part of the military, wouldn't that provide us with a free Army in addition to what we could recruit?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:
A lot of Trotskyists (the SWP I believe) joined the army and air-force during WW2 to spread "the message." They're all dead now (and probably not due to old age...)

If you honestly think you'll get "revolutionary" and "military experience" from this, I would advise joining the army or the marines. But then you'll actually have to go overseas and do the bidding of the state and capitalists by murdering. You won't get much out of the navy except maybe some muscles.
But I would advise not to join any branch of the military.

[Catma]

Whats wrong with a little patriotism? I don't by any means acting like those damn 'Tea Partyers' but, not even the slightest amount of pride? What is the point of implementing Socialism if not to better our country so that they may spread the revolution and better other nations? Why try to do such a thing If i don't give two shits about where I live?

Why should you care where you were born? There are no countries. Only people, and the boxes the ruling class puts them into. Everyone is your countryman. Communism is a classless, stateless society. I think you'll find plenty of socialists who don't give even one shit about where they live, yet still think socialism is a worthy project.

[Manic Impressive]

How so? I'm going to be furthering the Capitalists whatever I do. Every dollar I earn is taxed. These taxes pay for every single capitalist thing.It's such a cop out excuse to imply it is the same as any other job because it all serves to enrich the bourgeois. What is the product of the iron workers labour? It is to produce iron which may be turned into weapons. Now what is the product of the labour of someone in the military? As cmoney says every part of the labour produced is to enable the combat troops on the ground to do their job. And what is the product of the combat troops labour? Death and destruction.
Or is it perhaps to ensure that truth justice and the American way reaches every corner of the world?


Whats wrong with a little patriotism? I don't by any means acting like those damn 'Tea Partyers' but, not even the slightest amount of pride? What is the point of implementing Socialism if not to better our country so that they may spread the revolution and better other nations? Why try to do such a thing If i don't give two shits about where I live?Who is your loyalty to the state or the people? The state is the enemy of the people so I see no need to take any pride in it.


The revolution is not going to happen anytime soon. Why not spend my time spreading the word throughout the Navy? I plan to go into the Reserves. Chances are low that I'll ship over to a war-zone. But, this still makes me a murderer? I would imagine preaching anti-imperialism as you're loading a torpedo is going go over great. Even when you're in the barracks you'll find yourself ostracised for trying to spread an egalitarian message throughout the ranks and who will the other recruits listen to you a grunt or the CO who will most likely take offence at you trying to convince your fellow soldiers to turn against the state. Unless you're like the greatest mind control expert the world has ever seen (think Derren Brown) really it all sounds like a lot of ifs and buts. If you really want to help people involved in the military services why not volunteer at a veterans centre as I would have thought they would be much more responsive to the message than serving personnel. (lol the "message" sounds like you're a mormon apologies I'm 1/2 asleep):D

[Optiow]

I think that you should do what you want to do. Go in, get some military training and see some service, and then get an honorable discharge. Then you will have served "your time" and gained some valuable military experience that always comes in handy.

[Impulse97]

I would imagine preaching anti-imperialism as you're loading a torpedo is going go over great. Even when you're in the barracks you'll find yourself ostracized for trying to spread an egalitarian message throughout the ranks and who will the other recruits listen to you a grunt or the CO who will most likely take offence at you trying to convince your fellow soldiers to turn against the state. Unless you're like the greatest mind control expert the world has ever seen (think Derren Brown) really it all sounds like a lot of ifs and buts. If you really want to help people involved in the military services why not volunteer at a veterans centre as I would have thought they would be much more responsive to the message than serving personnel. (lol the "message" sounds like you're a mormon apologies I'm 1/2 asleep):D

What can they do? I have the freedom of speech too don't I? I need not necessarily spread a revolutionary message either. A Democratic Socialist approach may work just as well. If enough of them realize what capitalism does to people would they not help contribute to the revolution when it does come? What makes you think that every CO is going to be a diehard capitalist?

Also, what of defense? Almost every nation on the earth has a military. It's alot like standing in a room with 100 other people and each has a gun a varying quality. You drop your gun to oppose imperialism, that's great but, whats stopping even the weakest from killing you? Surely, even a Socialist nation needs a defense force at least until socialism is implemented in every nation?

I don't feel the US should commit any offensive military action for any reason unless there has been an outright, proven attack on the nation and therefore, the safety/welfare of the populace is at risk. I don't feel 9/11 was such an attack. The US population was not at risk after 9/11. Therefore, invalidating any reason Ole' Dubbya had to invade two nations. Even Minarchist advocates see the need for a defense force to be one of the few government responsibilities.

I feel that most of the Imperialistic streak in American politics stems from the Conservatives and Reactionary (Tea Party). The Dems. are capitalists for sure but, I doubt a Democratic president would have invaded in 01 & 03. Surely, they will operate as any Bourgeoisie would, and will do everything up to, and including military force to preserve capitalism (should a rev. occur) but, that they are just barely far enough left to mostly lack that Nationalistic, Imperialistic streak.

Its more than my politics. Joining up has been such a part of me for so long its hard to just drop it now that my politics are changing. I'm not the perfect Socialist. Perhaps, I need to review why I want to go in.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

(Sorry for the shifty topic changes. Got alot to think about atm.)

[Broletariat]

I have the freedom of speech too don't I?

It's been historically proven that the moment your speech starts to interfere with Capital, it gets cut off.


Even Minarchist advocates see the need for a defense force to be one of the few government responsibilities.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement, Minarchists, from what I know, are incredibly similar to "anarcho"-capitalists


The Dems. are capitalists for sure but, I doubt a Democratic president would have invaded in 01 & 03. Surely, they will operate as any Bourgeoisie would, and will do everything up to, and including military force to preserve capitalism (should a rev. occur) but, that they are just barely far enough left to mostly lack that Nationalistic, Imperialistic streak.

Here you are flat out wrong. LBJ, Clinton, etc.


Its more than my politics. Joining up has been such a part of me for so long its hard to just drop it now that my politics are changing. I'm not the perfect Socialist. Perhaps, I need to review why I want to go in.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

(Sorry for the shifty topic changes. Got alot to think about atm.)
It's quite alright, this is a learning forum after all. You should be able to ask any sorts of questions you like and receive a serious response.

[Impulse97]

I like your first point. *Sigh* Sad that that's true.

On the second one. From what I've read they're close in there Anarcho tendencies but are more leftist in their politics. Anarcho-Capitalists often disagree on economic policy or lack thereof.

In regards to the third one. One, what did Clinton do? Yea, there's the battle of Mogadishu but, no two front imperialistic war. Also, circumstance comes into play in regards to LBJ. The 60's had strong anti commie sentiments, even a 'liberal' democrat would have been "Tough on Communism". Clinton wouldn't have had that issue to deal with. Nor, did Bushy for that matter.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[Broletariat]

On the second one. From what I've read they're close in there Anarcho tendencies but are more leftist in their politics. Anarcho-Capitalists often disagree on economic policy or lack thereof.

My main point was that I'm not sure why we're comparing ourselves to a highly capitalist tendency


In regards to the third one. One, what did Clinton do? Yea, there's the battle of Mogadishu but, no two front imperialistic war. Also, circumstance comes into play in regards to LBJ. The 60's had strong anti commie sentiments, even a 'liberal' democrat would have been "Tough on Communism". Clinton wouldn't have had that issue to deal with. Nor, did Bushy for that matter.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

There's the whole Al Shifa business with Clinton.

I was referring to LBJ and the Vietnam war.

We also can't ignore Kennedy.

[Impulse97]

I was referring to LBJ and the Vietnam war.


So was I. It would have been political suicide to appear weak on communism early in the war and by the time he could have pulled out in the political free and clear, it was too late and he was stuck. Then Nixon came along and did the exact opposite of what he should have done and what he said he would do.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[The Douche]

What can they do? I have the freedom of speech too don't I? I need not necessarily spread a revolutionary message either. A Democratic Socialist approach may work just as well. If enough of them realize what capitalism does to people would they not help contribute to the revolution when it does come? What makes you think that every CO is going to be a diehard capitalist?

No, you do not have freedom of speech in the military, actually. They do control what you can say/advocate/and certainly what you can do. What makes me think the officer class and career NCOs are reactionaries? I dunno, how about 5 years of military service?:rolleyes:


Also, what of defense? Almost every nation on the earth has a military. It's alot like standing in a room with 100 other people and each has a gun a varying quality. You drop your gun to oppose imperialism, that's great but, whats stopping even the weakest from killing you? Surely, even a Socialist nation needs a defense force at least until socialism is implemented in every nation?

We don't live in a socialist nation. We live in an imperialist nation, when you pick up the gun wearing the uniform of the US, you pick up the gun for imperialism, that is not socialist.


I don't feel the US should commit any offensive military action for any reason unless there has been an outright, proven attack on the nation and therefore, the safety/welfare of the populace is at risk. I don't feel 9/11 was such an attack. The US population was not at risk after 9/11. Therefore, invalidating any reason Ole' Dubbya had to invade two nations. Even Minarchist advocates see the need for a defense force to be one of the few government responsibilities.

The US military is not a defensive organization, it is an imperialist merauding army which kills workers around the world.


I feel that most of the Imperialistic streak in American politics stems from the Conservatives and Reactionary (Tea Party). The Dems. are capitalists for sure but, I doubt a Democratic president would have invaded in 01 & 03. Surely, they will operate as any Bourgeoisie would, and will do everything up to, and including military force to preserve capitalism (should a rev. occur) but, that they are just barely far enough left to mostly lack that Nationalistic, Imperialistic streak.


Yeah the democrats aren't warhawks at all.:rolleyes: You do realise that congress voted to invade Afghanistan and declared war on Iraq, and yes, that includes the democrats. Also, you realise the democrats started the vietnam war, and Kennedy presided over our confrontations with and the invasion of Cuba?


Its more than my politics. Joining up has been such a part of me for so long its hard to just drop it now that my politics are changing. I'm not the perfect Socialist. Perhaps, I need to review why I want to go in.:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:


If you want to fight for imperialism, then you're not a socialist at all.


Why don't you talk to some of the posters here from Northern Ireland, and see what they think about "socialists" who want to join imperialist armies cause of how much they love their country.

[ZeroNowhere]

I love how we seem to be conflating killing people with working in mills. So let's go over this again. In the one case, you are signing up for working in mills and hence enriching the bourgeoisie. In the other case, you are signing up for killing people for specious reasons. Killing people. Perhaps that is worth thinking about for a while. If I said that I was giving you ten dollars, and on the one hand you could shoot somebody for no real reason, and on the other you could wash the dishes, which would you choose?

Of course, work isn't simply washing dishes. But then, joining the military's not about just killing one person, either.

The Democrat fetishsism would be better taken to a different thread.

[Palingenisis]

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.



I know Maoists are seen generally here as blood thirsty but please remember each human life is unique and also people change...Killing other people should be a last option...And that is what the military are there to do, its a killing machine, and one that kills for capitalism . If you want to serve your nation why not try getting a job as a social worker or volunteer for FOOD NOT BOMBS or something like that?

[Andropov]

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.
The key word missing here is in what context would you "serve your nation".
The US military is an imperialist force used to subjugate foreign peoples but to lure young impressionable minds they wrap it in sentimentality and glorious language when in reality the subjugation of Iraqis is anything but glorious.
Not only that but you would not be "serving your nation", it is not in the American Proletariats interests to occupy Iraq, it is in the Ruling Class's interest to occupy Iraq with vast wealth to be made for corporations and what not in the looting of Iraq.
Do not for a second think you would be "serving your nation", you would be serving Halle Burton and all the various private capital interests that prolong the brutalisation of Iraqi's.
The reason why it is packaged to minds like yourself that you would be "serving your nation" is because the truth isnt all that romantic, serving private capital isnt as attractive as the misconception of serving your people.

Not all WW2 German Soldiers where Nazis. Some fought for their nation first, regime second.
Irrelevant.
It is not about intentions, it is about the material position that German Soldiers occupied.
In this material context they were foot soldiers of NAZI'ism, an uncomfortable truth, but a truth none the less just as you would be a foot soldier for Private Capital in Iraq.

Is such a thing possible today? Can I fulfill my calling to serve my nation and still hold the principles of Socialism true?
Like I said before, dont believe the establishments propaganda, you would not be "serving your nation", you would be serving private capitals interests.

[Pravda Soyuz]

What if during the revolution, if we controlled a significant part of the military, wouldn't that provide us with a free Army in addition to what we could recruit?:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

When the revolution occurs, the socialist faction must have the broadest reach it can possibly have. It is not smart to leave the military leftist-free, for when the revolution happens, they will play a significant part!

[Palingenisis]

But, now I'm conflicted. I don't want to help further our nation's capitalist agenda, yet, I feel called to serve my nation if not my government.



The US military doesnt answer to a federation of workers' councils or whatever. It answers to the US goverment and will be used against the American people if they see fit.

[ZeroNowhere]

It's rather bizarre to claim that people should join the army, go to the Middle East, and kill people for the sake of SPREADING COMMUNISM!, especially when one considers that the actual, concrete results will probably not involve much spreading, and much more of the going around killing people for capital thing.

[Palingenisis]

It's rather bizarre to claim that people should join the army, go to the Middle East, and kill people for the sake of spreading communism in the army, especially when one considers that the actual, concrete results will probably not involve much spreading, and much more of the going around killing people for capital thing.

I would imagine that spreading Communism in the US military would be potentially very dangerous if you got any sort of sucess which is unlikely though.

[The Douche]

For real, I am an open communist and I am in the US army, not a single person I know has expressed the smallest ammount of interest in identifying as a communist, lots of people want to hear about it, or talk to me about it, they are interested to know 1) what communism really means/why I think its a good thing and 2) why I'm in the army if I am a communist.

When revolution happens it will be a polarizing event, and even if there is not a single communist identifying soldier in the ranks of the military, there will still be mass defections and refusals to fight. The enlisted ranks of the army are still comprised of people who were once workers and mostly will return to working after their enlistment is up. It is not necessary to join the army now to build for revolution, that is clearly just an excuse so people with an obsession for the military or for violence to justify their ideas/actions.

[Impulse97]

Cmoney if your so anti military why are you in it?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[Palingenisis]

Cmoney if your so anti military why are you in it?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

Poverty? :confused:

[Broletariat]

Poverty? :confused:
This is kind of the angle I was reading from when making my arguments, I don't think that got taken into account all that much. But this thread definitely shifted my perspective a bit.

[Impulse97]

Poverty? :confused:


This is a factor too. I'm not poor but, by no means am I rich. I am lucky to work 1-2 days a week at minimum wage. My dad makes little better than that at a car dealership and my mom is the only one who makes a fair amount of money(but at the cost of long hours and weekends spent working). And, we have little help from the state in offsetting the medical costs of my fathers heart and back surgeries or my disabled brothers needs. So there's little financial help there for school.

I don't have the grades for scholarships, or the money for college and unless I want to be paying back chase bank till I'm 40 in student loans...

It could help get me an education. Which is a powerful thing. Is the pen truly mightier than the sword? Should I pick up the sword temporarily if it will help me embrace the pen for life? Is knowledge truly power?:hammersickle::che::hammersickle:

[Palingenisis]

This is a factor too. I'm not poor but, by no means am I rich. I am lucky to work 1-2 days a week at minimum wage. My dad makes little better than that at a car dealership and my mom is the only one who makes a fair amount of money(but at the cost of long hours and weekends spent working). And, we have little help from the state in offsetting the medical costs of my fathers heart and back surgeries or my disabled brothers needs. So there's little financial help there for school.


I have what amounts to a part time job.

I live in a shit and rather dangerous at times "housing project"/council estate.

I do stuff to serve my nation which doesnt involve putting bullets in people in a foreign land I basically know fuck all about.

I could earn a lot more as a prostitute? Do you think I should do that?

The military involves killing and terrorizing people for money.

I remember clearly when I was pretty young in the north of Ireland an Imperialist soldier pointing a gun to my head when I was with my mum until I pissed myself in order to humiliate us both. Members of family have had blunt objects shoved up their arses in "questioning" by Imperialist soldiers...I could go on. Thats what Imperialist soldiers do. Cmoney has had a lot of hate thrown at him from Irish posters. Im sure if there were Iraqi posters on here they would throw even more hate....But he isnt defending his choice. So credit where credit is due.

Mexico and Canada are not attacking the USA.

Some money isnt wortrh it.

[Impulse97]

I want a mod to close this thread please. I need time to think. (Perhaps, I'll open it again when I need more input)

I was going to go in this summer but, thats not going to happen now and I won't go in until I've thoroughly considered all of the advice i've been given here and by family. Not until I've weighed all the pro's and cons. Not until I'm 100% sure that I'm making the right choice for the right reasons.

I don't need to rush it like I once thought. Thanks for the advice everyone. :):):hammersickle::che::hammersickle: