Don't Ask Don't Tell Abolished

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Congress had the guts to finally allow gay men and women to serve openly....

Though this is really more about old people than the military in my opinion. I've been a member of the military for a couple years now, been at several commands, and have known several gay men and lesbians and well, yeah. That's about it. Nobody gave a flying fuck. I mean, civilians do but nobody actually being 'affected' cared.

If anything, all DaDT did was allow homosexuals and anyone else wanting out to leave by writing a 'rainbow chit.' But the military had to respect this though they didn't want to, which is why I saw a LT tear one up when a friend of mine (who everybody knew was gay anyway) decided he didn't want to get out after all.


I'm just glad the civilians are done playing with words. No more college kids acting like the military doesn't allow gays, no more of my mom asking me how I feel (still don't care ma), no more of the whole fucking issue.

Sooooooo refreshing.

[Bud Struggle]

Do tell! :D

[The Douche]

I assure you, some people really do care, I feel so bad for any non-hetero, cisgender types in my unit.

If somebody in my unit came out of the closet, I think it would be a big deal, and they probably wouldn't be in the unit for much long afterwards.

[Bud Struggle]

I assure you, some people really do care, I feel so bad for any non-hetero, cisgender types in my unit.

If somebody in my unit came out of the closet, I think it would be a big deal, and they probably wouldn't be in the unit for much long afterwards.

All it takes is one or two people to make life hell for the gays.

[danyboy27]

All it takes is one or two people to make life hell for the gays.

things will change when some of those ignorant fools will be saved by gays during a real combat situation.

its gonna take some time to adapt for many ignorants, but ultimately, reality will blow up in their faces.

Canada allow gay in the military, and last time i checked it was one of the most efficient contingency. Places that are right now HELL for american in afghanistan used to be occupied by a verry small number of canadian troops.

i remember for a region where 200 canadian where needed, triple of american troop are required for pretty much the same result.

Combat efficiency my ass, warfare have nothing to do with sexual orientation.

[Amphictyonis]

Joining the military is not advisable. Joining the police force is not advisable either. I'll go as far as to tell the younger ones to stay away from the girl/boy scouts. Whats it like to be an anarchist who would subject yourself voluntarily to a hierarchical undemocratic institution of capitalist war?

conscientiously object already :(

[Mannimarco]

Joining the military is not advisable. Joining the police force is not advisable either. I'll go as far as to tell the younger ones to stay away from the girl/boy scouts. Whats it like to be an anarchist who would subject yourself voluntarily to a hierarchical undemocratic institution of capitalist war?

conscientiously object already :(


People can be coerced into it by capitalism because they have no other choices economicly.

[Lt. Ferret]

you always ahve a choice. and i was broke as a joke and losing faith when i joined the military, but it was my choice, and i could have found something else to do.

[Bud Struggle]

People can be coerced into it by capitalism because they have no other choices economicly.

Well of course if you are an Anarchist or a Communist those occupations aren't advisable, but 99% of the population aren't Anarchists or Communists--and they are interested in those kinds of jobs and it behooves it to all in society to see that someof those people that want to take those jobs and are gay don't suffer any sort of unpleasentness or ill treatment because of their sexual orientation.

[Amphictyonis]

People can be coerced into it by capitalism because they have no other choices economicly.

You're talking to a woman who's been homeless and in jail (about ten years ago). I understand material conditions can drive people to do things they would rather not do, under extreme scarcity people will cannibalize other people, but, yes, there are people who would judge my stealing when I was younger as the wrong choice just as I judge joining the military as the wrong choice.

I would think it rather confusing to join a undemocratic hierarchical institution while holding onto anarchist ideals. Like a black man joining the KKK. A christian joining the church of Satan. It just seems, well, we're the people at anti war demonstrations we shouldn't be the people fighting the wars. I guess it would be very confusing to be in the military and be a Marxist or anarchist. Lots of inner conflict.

We should give young people alternatives

http://www.jobcorps.gov/home.aspx

[#FF0000]

Recruiters make it sound like the military is a one-way ticket to social mobility, so it's easy to see why people will opt to go and join the military instead of working two or more jobs.

Maybe they also see the military as "one" job and more preferable or easier than working "two" jobs. Maybe.

But I don't know if finances is the reason most kids join up, though. I mean everyone I know who joined up was pretty fucking poor. They all told me "I'll get money for college!" but they were, generally, worse off than I was financially, and I used to get a free ride to college.

I think it's more because they're looking for the other things the military gives, like comraderie, a "purpose", and a feeling of power and control. One girl I know who joined the air force straight out said they did it because they wanted to do something with their lives ("So you became an armed thug for capital. Reach for the stars, I guess"). Another one told me, completely serious, that she "just wants to blow shit up".

A few others I knew were just kind of "lost" in general. Didn't do well in high school, didn't go off to college for whatever reason, and didn't seem to have anything going for them at the time. They were also kind of unstable (but never saw a shrink for anything). One was a rapist (not convicted - She never called the police). All of them joined the Army because no other branch would take them.

But yeah I'm rambling. My point is that there's more to it than "economic conscription" (or maybe that there's more to "economic conscription" than the money?). A lot of kids who join the army do it because they're lonely, they feel weak, and they don't think they've got anything going for them other than spending time with a social circle that gets smaller every year after getting out of high school and working a minimum wage job and struggling with bills or living with their parents.

It's that alienation thing we Marxists talk about.

[Bud Struggle]

And the army does a lot more than just shoot people. It can give order to disorganized lives and set people up with a sense of purpose and self worth. There are pople out there that definitely benefit from the training and sense of mission the army fives them.

[Robert]

And the Navy. ;)

[Amphictyonis]

And the army does a lot more than just shoot people. It can give order to disorganized lives and set people up with a sense of purpose and self worth. There are pople out there that definitely benefit from the training and sense of mission the army fives them.

"My father- he's like the nicest man in the world. He could say something nice about anybody -- I mean, anybody. So finally one day I got fed up with it. I said, 'Alright, Dad, what about John Wayne Gacy? Killed 35 people, buried them under the house.' My father goes, 'Well, he's not lazy, and he's a home owner."

;) sorry, I couldn't resist posting the joke, I just see the capitalists military as the no 1 thing keeping capitalism alive :( I actually respect the material forces driving people to do various things. I know full employment isn't possible and this is why millions end up in prisons or the military. When the stage is set a certian way it's really easy to act out certian roles.

[Mannimarco]

If all you want to do is blow shit up, a strong leftist mercenary would be a far better calling.

[#FF0000]

And the army does a lot more than just shoot people. It can give order to disorganized lives and set people up with a sense of purpose and self worth. There are pople out there that definitely benefit from the training and sense of mission the army fives them.

And then it teaches them to kill and asks them to do it, and then throws them back into society as if that won't cause any problems. Even if they don't actually shoot anybody, they're conditioning people to kill other people without hesitating and without remorse.

[Lt. Ferret]

actually it gives them a huge multitude of jobs, most of which don't involve killing or violence. then it gives them the oppurtunity to get a bachelors degree of their choice.

then it gives them a moderate amount of lifetime benefits for serving.

[Revolution starts with U]

Well, you panty wastes haven't yet mentioned the best people in the military, so for my friend Cpl (corporal) Jesse H....

OOO RA!

But seriously, I'm no fan of the military. But I have no problem with, and in some ways like the idea of the militaristic institution; like a training ground which turns "boys" (or girls) into "men" (or women).... and by that I mean teaches them perserverance, goal setting, and responsiblity.... turns young people into adults.
I'm just glad we don't have backward barbaric laws that say one person can't do what they want because of their sexual orientation :tt1:

[Lobotomy]

I assure you, some people really do care, I feel so bad for any non-hetero, cisgender types in my unit.

If somebody in my unit came out of the closet, I think it would be a big deal, and they probably wouldn't be in the unit for much long afterwards.

I often heard this used as an argument against repealing DADT, sometimes even by gay people. They argued that it was for the best if sexual orientation was never brought up because of potential harassment, etc. (I'm not saying that this is the point you were trying to make). But I think it's important that now people have the option to share their sexual orientation, and if gay men and women in the military would rather not share and have everyone assume that they are heterosexual then that's fine too. What's important is that gay people will not be forced into living a double life in which they're always terrified that their status will be heard by the wrong person and they lose everything they've worked for in their career. Regardless of what we think of the military as an institution, this is a win for the gay community for sure.

[QueeRiot]

Joining the military is not advisable. Joining the police force is not advisable either. I'll go as far as to tell the younger ones to stay away from the girl/boy scouts. Whats it like to be an anarchist who would subject yourself voluntarily to a hierarchical undemocratic institution of capitalist war?

conscientiously object already :(

Agreed.


Go figure, as a queer dude I'm around GLBT people a lot and am always amazed at the amount of enthusiasm and support of ending the DADT policy. I do understand that as an issue concerning the “rights” of people to serve openly as gay or lesbian (does this cover transgendered folks too?), that the government should not have the option of withholding certain social or political positions due to sexual orientation, however that is really not nearly as important as we are told.


Since our government in the US is not at all interested in protecting the rights of people, since our government is not at all aware of what real rights are, since our government actively stomps all over the rights of us and uses the military as a tool to stomp on everyone else around the world, I can't at all see why we should be thrilled to be allowed to finally serve as openly GLBT.


My advice is stay as far away from the state as you can. If you are a part of this governments police or military forces you are not a friend. You have chosen to serve the enemy of the people and yourself.

(It also pisses me off that I can't use being gay as a reason to dodge imposed service any longer.)

[Lobotomy]

(It also pisses me off that I can't use being gay as a reason to dodge imposed service any longer.)

:lol: I heard that that didn't work anymore anyway ever since Klinger was always trying to do that on M*A*S*H. But really, I agree that it is perhaps blown out of proportion but the point is that if it's illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation in jobs in the private sector then it should be illegal in all parts of the public sector as well.

[QueeRiot]

:lol: I heard that that didn't work anymore anyway ever since Klinger was always trying to do that on M*A*S*H. But really, I agree that it is perhaps blown out of proportion but the point is that if it's illegal to discriminate based on sexual orientation in jobs in the private sector then it should be illegal in all parts of the public sector as well.

If only that were true. In fact, in many parts of this country an employer may fire because of sexual orientation. The solution to this is not to force an employer to hire and keep employee's regardless of sexual orientation but to destroy the structures which allow this to happen to begin with. The solution is the end of capitalism.

Back to the military, I find it very difficult to stomach the idea that I should be working to allow anyone to serve in the military. Let the Christians and Republicans join the military. It'll be a hell of a lot easier to spot them when they are suited up in those silly uniforms and parading around like jackboots.

[PoliticalNightmare]

I cannot believe

that the US is ahead of Britain on this one. Come on guys, sort this out!

[danyboy27]

;) sorry, I couldn't resist posting the joke, I just see the capitalists military as the no 1 thing keeping capitalism alive :( I actually respect the material forces driving people to do various things. I know full employment isn't possible and this is why millions end up in prisons or the military. When the stage is set a certian way it's really easy to act out certian roles.

Well, that not true, the main reason why the capitalist system is still alive is lack of awareness inside of the working class about the current situation.

We outnumber the military and the police 500 to 1, the gap might even be bigger than that.

The military cannot survive without civilian support of it. without fuel, food or people making the amunition, a military cant go really far, its a monster of logistic to maintain.

those burst of violence that you see in protest are only a glimpse of what the working class could achieve if at least 60% of it would be aware and educated on what going on.

People are often impressed by the guns of the military but its true power reside inside of the working class who maintain it and supply it with money, food, amunition, clothing, electricity, facilities, replacement parts, vehicules, computers, medical equipement, road, water, raw materials, i could make a longer list but really i hope its will not be necessary.

[Revolution starts with U]

My defense against drafted will be; "Take me to jail!" :cool:

[danyboy27]

My defense against drafted will be; "Take me to jail!" :cool:
The jail are not necessarly more safer.

Your best bet would be to be drafted, show poor performance during training, and they will put you away from combat, you will be dispatched to a menial job.

if they do take you in combat anyway, get hurt or simply bail out while in permission in a country where they have little or no jurisdiction.

you could also try to play along, show outstanding result and be assigned to a more technical job like mechanic or doctor.

[Raúl Duke]

The jail are not necessarly more safer.

During the Vietnam Era, some people who resisted and were put to jail were tossed out of jail because they incited rebellion in jails.

Right now there's a massive state-wide rebellion in Georgia's correctional system.

So it's possible that jails can get you free quicker, or you can incite some shit.

[Lobotomy]

If only that were true. In fact, in many parts of this country an employer may fire because of sexual orientation.

Forgive my ignorance but where and how so?

[The Douche]

Joining the military is not advisable. Joining the police force is not advisable either. I'll go as far as to tell the younger ones to stay away from the girl/boy scouts. Whats it like to be an anarchist who would subject yourself voluntarily to a hierarchical undemocratic institution of capitalist war?

conscientiously object already :(

Being an objector does not get you out of the military.:closedeyes:

[Bud Struggle]

Forgive my ignorance but where and how so?

FWIW: in the US a (non union) employer can fire you for almost any reason. You hair color, your eyes being to close together or your choice of cologne. He can't fire you because you are Black, though.

[#FF0000]

Forgive my ignorance but where and how so?

In Right To Work States. They just can't out and say "IT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE GAY". Or black. Or a woman.

It's really easy for employers to do this because they actually don't have to give a reason to fire you at all.

[PigmerikanMao]

The solution to this is not to force an employer to hire and keep employee's regardless of sexual orientation but to destroy the structures which allow this to happen to begin with. The solution is the end of capitalism.

Capitalism is not the source of homophobia and LGBT discrimination. Traditional religious practices and intolerance are. You forget in much of the history of the Soviet Union (after the rise of Stalin), homosexuality was criminalized for being decadent and western. The same of post-Maoist China until it was decriminalized in the 90's but remained classified as a mental illness until much later. In Cuba only recently have advances (albeit broad advances) been made in the field of LGBT rights.
In North Korea, even, although the government claims that LGBT people are treated with equality, this is highly suspect, as the North Korean government voted against a UN resolution that would make the imprisonment and execution of homosexuals an international crime. Why would that be? The North Korean's CERTAINLY aren't capitalist (not free market anyhow- though state capitalism is another issue) so why would gays and lesbians be mistreated there?
Make sure you know which of your enemies are responsible for which crimes have been committed.

Anyhow, this may just be my preference as a LGBTQ individual, but I would much rather live in a communist society where I was denied the right to marry my boyfriend (I see marriage as a heteronormative institution anyhow), than live in a capitalist society where I'm free to starve.

:confused:


Back to the military, I find it very difficult to stomach the idea that I should be working to allow anyone to serve in the military. Let the Christians and Republicans join the military. It'll be a hell of a lot easier to spot them when they are suited up in those silly uniforms and parading around like jackboots.

Not that I actually care (that's the thirdworldism talking), but aren't these Christians and Republicans members of the oppressed proletariat just like you?

:rolleyes:


Forgive my ignorance but where and how so?

Anywhere there aren't laws already against it (I.e. Very few places), employers are free to fire you for immoral conduct if you're outed by a coworker or someone else. Happened to a friend of mine last year actually.

[QueeRiot]

I have not forgotten, PigmerikanMao, that gays were discriminated against in the Soviet states; I just don't care. The piss poor examples left to us by those states and others (China, Cuba, North Korea) are irrelevant. They never represented the people and do not represent any meaningful change in society. It cannot be surprising that a state built on false assumptions made by power hungry men would turn out as awfully as they have.


Christians, Republicans, Democrats, and most American socialists have at every turn helped prolong and empower the capitalist structures which serve to enslave. I could give a hoot-in-hell what they think and whether or not they are oppressed like me. If they join with the enemy they are the enemy. If they fight for the enemy they are the enemy. If they vote for the enemy they are the enemy. If they grumble about marriage rights or workers rights or Black rights or any rights and yet continue “work within the system” they are they enemy and I will never think otherwise. To do so is to accept the current capitalist system and that is unacceptable.

[PigmerikanMao]

I just don't care.

That's the right attitude to take about history of LGBT rights, apathy! We're never going to learn anything about how to structure ourselves if we ignore the past shortcomings of the international leftist movement, or the LGBT rights movement for that matter.

:rolleyes:


The piss poor examples left to us by those states and others (China, Cuba, North Korea) are irrelevant. They never represented the people and do not represent any meaningful change in society.

Actually, it's entirely relevant, and believe it or not, as far away as those states were from actually attaining a communist society, the changes that they underwent constituted a great change in society. Healthcare, land reform, women's rights, employment rights (the right to have a secure job) were all propagated by the initial revolutionaries of those states. What they degenerated into is unfortunate, but not the point. These states were anti-capitalist (and arguably socialist) but still had difficulties with embracing others in society (minorities, homosexuals, etc). While it is obvious that Capitalism is the inherit and principal enemy of the people, it is not the only enemy. All social issues cannot simply be resolved by abolishing capitalism. There are other hurdles to get over as well (in this case reactionary thinking).

:closedeyes:


It cannot be surprising that a state built on false assumptions made by power hungry men would turn out as awfully as they have.

I would expect no less from an anarchist, but you're giving a subjective label to people who's motivations are nothing more than enigmatic to you. I am sure that Castro, Lenin, Mao, and others have/had nothing but good intentions. Their shortcomings must be analyzed, but to vilify them for attributes assigned to them by the western media as the source of all problems in their respective states is a tad elementary, no? The truth is a little more complex. You can't chalk it up to, "This guy was a dictator. Fuck the state/system/whatever."

:lol:


Christians, Republicans, Democrats, and most American socialists have at every turn helped prolong and empower the capitalist structures which serve to enslave. I could give a hoot-in-hell what they think and whether or not they are oppressed like me. If they (...) continue “work within the system” they are they enemy and I will never think otherwise. To do so is to accept the current capitalist system and that is unacceptable.

I'm pretty sure you're working within the system yourself. Otherwise, how are you going to get on the internet, keep a roof over your head, and eat? Even the simple act of buying food is contributing to the system. Any capital surrendered to the bourgeoisie is submission to the capitalist mode of production technically. It's not practical (and not really possible on a large scale) to separate ones self from the Capitalist system without an alternative mode of production to defect to. It all becomes a slippery slope really, how much do you give in to support the revolution? Don't act high and mighty because you didn't join the military- most people who I know who have joined only did so in order to pay for college because they weren't affluent enough to pay for it out of pocket or get loans. Furthermore, just because someone is uneducated and votes for a rightist candidate, because they were deceived, is not an excuse to vilify them as an enemy to "the people." They ARE the people.
This is really all off topic, though.

:laugh:

[Havet]

Congress had the guts to finally allow gay men and women to serve openly....



And about time too!

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3110/gaycuriosityuscanada.jpg

Source (http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/gay-sex-vs-straight-sex/)

[Lt. Ferret]

Until I see a clan of mountain dwelling homosexuals living off the grid successfully and waging gender war on the United States, I refuse to believe that the sexual revolution is going to occur by destroying capitalism.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I agree, homphobia and intolerance are issues which predate capitalism by quite a while (like, thousands of years).

If anything, I would wager that outside of pockets like classical greece or maybe rome (and probably many other cultures I haven't had the opportunity to study), by and large things are probably better for sexual rights in the capitalist decadent west than they have ever been.

Same goes for womens rights. And integration, with equal rights for, different races. I'm not saying it's perfect, far from it, just quite a bit better than were we've been the last couple thousand years or so.

[RGacky3]

And the army does a lot more than just shoot people. It can give order to disorganized lives and set people up with a sense of purpose and self worth. There are pople out there that definitely benefit from the training and sense of mission the army fives them.


Thats the argument for any sort of authoritarian system, there are benefits to most things, does'nt make them positive, because the bad effects far outweigh the positive ones.

Its kind of sick that for a large section of the population the army is the only real option with some sort of future, just shows the type of society the US has become.

[Amphictyonis]

Well, that not true, the main reason why the capitalist system is still alive is lack of awareness inside of the working class about the current situation.

We outnumber the military and the police 500 to 1, the gap might even be bigger than that.

The military cannot survive without civilian support of it. without fuel, food or people making the amunition, a military cant go really far, its a monster of logistic to maintain.

those burst of violence that you see in protest are only a glimpse of what the working class could achieve if at least 60% of it would be aware and educated on what going on.

People are often impressed by the guns of the military but its true power reside inside of the working class who maintain it and supply it with money, food, amunition, clothing, electricity, facilities, replacement parts, vehicules, computers, medical equipement, road, water, raw materials, i could make a longer list but really i hope its will not be necessary.

The capitalist market could not expand without the military and the crisis's would be much worse and more frequent in so radicalizing the working class faster. Without any foreign markets to exploit (via the military) capitalism would eat itself. It would implode. In that process misery of the sorts we've never seen before would manifest side by side with a radicalized working class :)

[Pavlov's House Party]

And about time too!

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3110/gaycuriosityuscanada.jpg

Source (http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/gay-sex-vs-straight-sex/)

wow, canada is gay :D

[Lobotomy]

Well, I think this is obligatory.

Np6_b-72H3E