FnB and others Protest Sidewalk Ban and Serve Food in Front Of SF Macy's

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Food Not Bombs served food in defiance and in protest of the recently passed city wide ban in San Francisco on sitting or laying on the sidewalk in front of Macy's in Union Square as hundreds of debt-laden consumers went about their holidaze spending. This was escalated into sitting directing in front of the store and the shouting of more and more anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist slogans. This then escalated into four people sitting against the front doors of macy's, blocking 4 out of the eight front doors. That continued for about 45 mins, police arrested all four for trepassing, cited and released them. We served a lot of food, made lots of friends, talked about sit/lie and were seen by a shit ton of people, airing my stinking boots out on the sidewalk at macy's.

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Lamestream media story (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sfnewsfeedus/171020735816#%21/album.php?aid=260560&id=171020735816):

SAN FRANCISCO, CA (12/20)- In a stark reminder of the city's ongoing crisis with homelessness, in defiance of the city's "Sit/Lie" ordinance, which went into effect on the first Monday, before Christmas, members of Food Not Bombs gathered outside the Macy's on Geary Boulevard, in the heart of the Union Square shopping area, in an effort to protest against the policy. The news came as San Francisco leaders are reporting record spendingto deal with the issue. This year, the city spent $150 million on health care and social services for its estimated 13,500 homeless on the street or in city-funded housing. That comes to about $11,000 per person. The city has spent another $176 million, mostly in federal funds, on permanent housing for the homeless since 2004.

Members of the organization sent a press release stating,"Come and eat and sit with Food not Bombs while the shopping class frantically suffer from the effects of mindless consumerism, capitalism and debt. There are many hungry and homeless people in San Francisco, while consumers are buying expensive useless crap for other people... Corporate merchants would want nothing more than to distract form the disease of capitalism and may attempt to sweep us away with police that make a minimum of $100,000 a year dispute cuts in services for the homeless who will face fines because they don't have a place to stay..."

Many of the people who participated int he protest, came for very personal and heart felt reasons. Matt Crain of San Francisco said, " I am here for two reasons. First is the fact that I enjoy sharing free food with people. Second, this is the first business day since the 'sit/lie' ordinance went into effect in San Francisco. It seems unconstitutional and criminal to contain people for doing something as natural as sitting down..." Rez, another longtime resident of San Francisco echoed those sentiments saying, "I'm shocked that San Francisco has taken a stand against the civil rights of people. The supporters of the law, including Jeff Adachi, have said that the law will be enforced at the discretion of the police. Unfortunately this means that the we can count on the prejudices of officers to be enforced against the poor and working-class people of this city. We can't allow this criminal ordinance to be enforced... (Pointing to the Union Square rea) This is not hallowed ground for shopping and parking. I don't see less a positive benefit from public space than people receiving food in San Francisco..." Ted Hexter, who has worked with Food Not Bombs in San Francisco said,"When I serve food to people in a place that is not welcoming to poor and low-income, it is disappointing. There are people who are shopping who don't show much concern for what is happening in front of them!!" Kevin Stolle, also with Food Not Bombs said, "I help cook and I have been helping for several months. I am here specifically to challenge the 'sit/lie' ordinance and consumerism in general. We serve free food and this law will have a direct effect on our actions, making it difficult to help the people who need it the most in this city..."

The Coalition on Homelessness issued a statment saying, "Conservatives in San Francisco are attempting to get passed a law which would make it illegal to be homeless during the daytime throughout our city. The impetus for the law comes from outsiders who would like to see our city look more like Walnut Creek and run its police department more like The Shield. Unfortunately, these outside proponents have taken advantage of the very reasonable fears that some residents of the Haight have about public safety in order to push a much larger agenda, which includes a conservative slate of supervisors in the November election... For conservative proponents, there's a very clear political angle. For progressives being challenged, there's a very clear fear. But for us, this is not about conservative versus progressive: This is about fundamental civil rights. When we allow laws that prohibit people from existing in public places, we give the police enormous discretion in determining who's criminal and who's not. In the words of the Supreme Court, this sort of discretion “bears the hallmark of a police state” (Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham). The notion, one supposes, is that we ought to have a police state for the poor and democracy for the wealthy. Examples of such societies fill Western history, from the Roman Republic of Spartacus' time to Jim Crow. The “democratic” exemplars are far from inspiring..."

According to its site, Food Not Bombs recovers healthy, nutritious, vegetarian food that would have been otherwise discarded and cooks and serves it to people in immediate need. The problem isn’t too little production, it’s poor and inequitable distribution. Food Not Bombs is an alternative food distribution organization, intent on building sustainable community food sharing programs. By giving away free, vegetarian food in public places Food Not Bombs brings the invisible hungry and poor into the public’s eye, forcing passers-by to examine, at least for a moment, their own complicity and involvement in allowing the unaccountable global economic system that oppresses every one of us to continue. Food Not Bombs calls attention to the inherent contradictions in society’s failure to provide food and housing for each of its members, while at the same time handing out hundreds of billions of dollars in funding for unconscionable wars and state violence.

"We think that a majority of San Franciscans, once they see this law is enforced in a discriminatory way, they will recognize that it is unfair and they will be with us, and being relieved once it is repealed in the courts," Andy Blue, Sidewalks for People Coalition said.

With 40% of San Franciscans reportedly unemployed, many local residents are concerned not just their current economic state, but the upcoming year ahead. Whoever is chosen as mayor after January 4th, many believe that the issue of homelessness will have to be at the top of their agenda.

-Jose Ricardo G. Bondoc

[Amphictyonis]

A 325 Sq Ft studio apartment SOMA is 1,000 dollars a month. A one bedroom apartment in the Mission is 1,500 dollars a month. Even the Tenderloin is gentrified. It's all sad. Landlords are slime as are all of the people who shit gold and decide to move to San Fransisco. I think city leaders want to "get rid" of poor people. Gavin Newsom is a douche.

[bcbm]

while the shopping class frantically suffer from the effects of mindless consumerism, capitalism and debt

why do activists always write like this? "shoppers" are not the enemy, sheesh

[gorillafuck]

Members of the organization sent a press release stating,"Come and eat and sit with Food not Bombs while the shopping class frantically suffer from the effects of mindless consumerism, capitalism and debt.
Oh god, they actually said "the shopping class". That makes me want to puke.

This is a terrible law passed that really needs to be stood against, but if only it had been protested by people who don't say things like "the shopping class".....

[Amphictyonis]

Petty bourgeois consumerism is a problem in San Fransisco. Most of the SHOPPING CLASS is from the very expensive surrounding suburbs. Inside the very expensive city the petty bourgeois have moved in from the very expensive suburbs completley gentrifying the city. Those that aren't petty bourgeois are emulating them from the media manipulation they're subjected to 24/7.

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As a woman I find the shopping ^class^ rather repulsive at times. These people are apathetic to pretty much everything but their portfolio and image in the mirror. The shopping class are products of years of psychological manipulation under capitalism. Their idea of freedom is shopping every weekend.


Watch the 1:25 mark to the end of the video (below) if you want to see my point. Even regular working class people have fallen victim to this and it amounts to massive debt and perpetual wage slavery. Each American adult is on average 10,000 dollars in credit card debt (not counting mortgages). The video below is from San Fransisco where the working class is emulating the petty bourgeois and has become the shopping class. In a way, in many peoples minds this has erased class because everyone can drive the same cars and wear the same clothes. The illusion of equality.

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The people actually blocking the door:

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[ellipsis]

Shopping class=leisure class
Shopping=leisure

Given the amount of waste they generate and the amount of power they give capitalists over society, I'd say consumerism and consumerists are "the enemy"/counter revolutionary.

[bcbm]

unless you don't spend a dime ever, you're a consumer too bro.

most people who shop are not "leisure class," they're working people who work long hours to make ends meet and if they have a little extra they're going to spend it at the mall or whatever. there is obviously a problem with people being driven into debt and sold a lifestyle they have to struggle hard to approximate, but blaming "consumers" for shopping is as stupid as blaming workers for going to their jobs.

especially around christmas time, most of these people probably want to find a good deal on shit so they can afford to give their family gifts, which is increasingly difficult as the economy tanks, food prices rise, jobs are cutting hours or just firing people, few places hiring, etc. either way, i doubt people calling them mindless idiots is going to make them stop and consider anything being said.

[Decolonize The Left]

unless you don't spend a dime ever, you're a consumer too bro.

most people who shop are not "leisure class," they're working people who work long hours to make ends meet and if they have a little extra they're going to spend it at the mall or whatever. there is obviously a problem with people being driven into debt and sold a lifestyle they have to struggle hard to approximate, but blaming "consumers" for shopping is as stupid as blaming workers for going to their jobs.

especially around christmas time, most of these people probably want to find a good deal on shit so they can afford to give their family gifts, which is increasingly difficult as the economy tanks, food prices rise, jobs are cutting hours or just firing people, few places hiring, etc. either way, i doubt people calling them mindless idiots is going to make them stop and consider anything being said.

bcbm is absolutely correct.

When you vilify individuals for shopping, i.e. purchasing goods and services, you are in effect vilifying them for working, i.e. producing goods and services, only because they do so within an economic system of capitalism.

Yet the alternative is escapism and unacceptable. Unless you are prepared to live on your own or on a commune in the woods, you are forced by the fact that we are social creatures to engage in the capitalist system as it is currently the dominant economic system. The point is to heighten the awareness of this system and its consequences on the individual, to educate and radicalize in an effort to mobilize and initiate change, not to vilify and throw blame. This achieves nothing, only alienates and breeds mistrust and resentment.

- August

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TBH at the actual event there was little if no vilification of the shoppers, no moral judgement and comdemnation of passerbys. Did we aggressively disrupt their lives temporarily, yes, but only to juxtapose the city's anti-homeless efforts with its "liberal" image and to the consumerist ritual itself.

Shouted "slogans" included "cut up your credit cards" "sidewalks are for people" "open your hearts and close your wallets" and "liberate yourselves from the parasitic banking class". no promotion of freeganism or escapism. And we did engage individuals in dialoug and education.

Credit card debt and debt in general is a means of economoic enslavement. Debt does cause people to kill themselves, "go postal", ruin families, cause homelessness, etc.

I live a certain lifestyle/means of substistance that is unique to me and my personal experiances and philosophies. I do not wish to project my lifestyle onto others or the anti-capitalist project, but do recognize that consumerism has DIRE real life effects, environmental, socially and culturally.

Between dumpster diving and consumerism there is A LOT of middle groud, areas where consuming what you need replaces consuming what you don't even want and wasting a good portion of that. Affluenza is a good film on this subject.

[Blackscare]

Amphictyonis' post is laughable, comparing average people venturing out to the stores to get presents for family to posh hill people spending every weekend in trendy stores blowing their trust funds.

[bcbm]

i guess i don't see why it is especially useful to confront the "consumer" side of the equation specifically or at least as something separate from capitalism as it seems a lot of this adbustersesque stuff does. i don't think the problem is that we shop too much, i think the problem is that we have an economic system that creates things like parasitic bankers, credit card debt, cheap goods that end up in landfills, etc.


"open your hearts and close your wallets"

fucking hippies:sneaky:

[ellipsis]

Shopping class=leisure class
Shopping=leisure

Given the amount of waste they generate and the amount of power they give capitalists over society, I'd say consumerism and consumerists are "the enemy"/counter revolutionary.

Did I really type that? LOL i didn't mean to be so hard lined about it. The post above more accurately reflect my views.

Also I'd like to argue for a separation of need based consumption and capitalist-created consumerism.

[bcbm]

Also I'd like to argue for a separation of need based consumption and capitalist-created consumerism.

why? its all tied together.

[ellipsis]

i guess i don't see why it is especially useful to confront the "consumer" side of the equation specifically or at least as something separate from capitalism as it seems a lot of this adbustersesque stuff does. i don't think the problem is that we shop too much, i think the problem is that we have an economic system that creates things like parasitic bankers, credit card debt, cheap goods that end up in landfills, etc.


No, there was no particular use to the anti-consumerist current, the real purpose was to do a direct action in a high visibility location. The anti-consumerism was just kinda inevitable, what with some jaded anti-capitalists in the rain. Adbusters sucks but has some cool art. Shopping is a manifestation of the system and merely a symptom of it, not its heart and not its primary means of oppression.


fucking hippies:sneaky:Guilty. LOL don't judge me but I "wrote" that one. I also give peace signs to cops.


why? its all tied together.
Right, but I am saying is that it does not have to be (in a post capital society for example) and for many people today that conflation is minimal, though nobody is above a little commodity fetishism once and a while, myself included.

[bcbm]

man you are fried

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yet the alternative is escapism and unacceptable. Unless you are prepared to live on your own or on a commune in the woods, you are forced by the fact that we are social creatures to engage in the capitalist system as it is currently the dominant economic system. The point is to heighten the awareness of this system and its consequences on the individual, to educate and radicalize in an effort to mobilize and initiate change, not to vilify and throw blame. This achieves nothing, only alienates and breeds mistrust and resentment.

- August

Well, that's some boring liberal bullshit.
How about living in at war with the existent? Y'know, that thing called class war or social war that rages around us day in and day out? How about instead of whining, pathetically, "Oh, I have no choice! I'm forced to engage!" you fucking ATTACK.
The point is not to heighten awareness - as though there is anybody who doesn't know the obvious, staring them in the face everyday (this society is shit) - the point is to rise up against it.
The alternative to activism and mobilization isn't vilifying or throwing blame - it's taking some personal fucking responsibility for the type of world you want to live in. Is it bound to breed resentment from the people who are comfortable and content in this society? Abso-fucking-lutely! Do you want a revolution that doesn't breed resentment? Good luck!
What "alienates" people is the existent - if people are ever going to be anything other than alienated, then it's going to be an ugly business. You can pray for a revolution without a revolution, a grand shift in popular consciousness, or you can, as the stoopid protesters are so fond of chanting, but so afraid to put into practice - stand-up, fight back.

If we are escaping, it is only to come back and burn this prison down.
To do otherwise is suicide.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Ironically, I totally <3 many a Food Not Bombs group.

[Decolonize The Left]

Well, that's some boring liberal bullshit.

I fail to see how noting that consuming and producing are two sides of the same coin, the point being the method by which things are produced/consumed, is liberal in any sense.


How about living in at war with the existent?

This isn't English so I have no clue what you're talking about.


Y'know, that thing called class war or social war that rages around us day in and day out? How about instead of whining, pathetically, "Oh, I have no choice! I'm forced to engage!" you fucking ATTACK.
The point is not to heighten awareness - as though there is anybody who doesn't know the obvious, staring them in the face everyday (this society is shit) - the point is to rise up against it.
The alternative to activism and mobilization isn't vilifying or throwing blame - it's taking some personal fucking responsibility for the type of world you want to live in. Is it bound to breed resentment from the people who are comfortable and content in this society? Abso-fucking-lutely! Do you want a revolution that doesn't breed resentment? Good luck!

This sort of individualistic self-satisfying disruptive action helps absolutely no one and makes no difference what-so-ever. No one stopped shopping at the Macy's because you were out front. And if 10 people did, that's a penny in the bucket for a corporation like that.

I understand that you're energetic about making change and support your enthusiasm. Likewise, I value theredson's contributions to the forum as well as his activism quite highly. This doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize when I deem it necessary. How do you expect to learn if you won't listen?

And to answer your question, yes I want a revolution that doesn't breed resentment. Resentment is a weak and contemptible emotional attachment to a value-system which is incongruous with one's own will. I want an honest revolution whereby each worker understands their plight and their will to succeed and thereby directs their actions in unity with their brothers and sisters towards the greater goal of emancipating themselves as a class.

You can dream of watching the bourgeoisie whimper and cry about losing their stuff while you bomb wal-mart but I could care less. This sort of emotional pandering is a complete waste of time and is counter-productive to the tangible means of achieving the goal as it only encourages the state to further intensify their means of counter-revolution and repression.


What "alienates" people is the existent - if people are ever going to be anything other than alienated, then it's going to be an ugly business. You can pray for a revolution without a revolution, a grand shift in popular consciousness, or you can, as the stoopid protesters are so fond of chanting, but so afraid to put into practice - stand-up, fight back.

If we are escaping, it is only to come back and burn this prison down.
To do otherwise is suicide.

Wrong.

People are alienated due to a capitalist system of exploitation and oppression coupled with an imperial and violent state apparatus which seeks to destroy the individual and the community in favor of the accumulation of capital.

I don't know what the fuck the "existent" is but it sure as shit isn't alienating people from themselves. If you mean 'reality' then reality can't alienate people because it is what it is - only a person(s) or a system(s) can alienate people, and they do quite often. You need to get your duckies in a row before you go burning shit down or you're just going to be one more person behind bars *****ing about the system and how you wanna tear the muthafucka down. Guess what? It ain't gonna get torn down by you, or 15 of you, or 100 of you, or 1,000 of you, or 10,000 of you. It gets torn down by a massive and cohesive labor movement which seizes the means of production and in effect engages in a militarized general strike.

I'm not hating on chalking on sidewalks. I'm not hating on protesting in front of Macy's. I'm glad theredson did these things as it gives his life meaning and purpose. I'm commenting on thinking too much of something and ignoring the overall picture and context of one's actions.

- August

[Amphictyonis]

Amphictyonis' post is laughable, comparing average people venturing out to the stores to get presents for family to posh hill people spending every weekend in trendy stores blowing their trust funds.

Have you ever lived in San Fransisco? My post isn't laughable at all. There's a major shopping fetish in this city. You'd have to experience it on adaily basis to understand. The laws they pass to make these shoppers happy are laughable. What you should understand as a given is the difference between providing rational material abundance and the sort of crazy consumerism capitalism pushes on us. Of course I shop for things, everyone has to but the sort of 'sex in the city' shallow consumerist cult that has taken over so many people is, well, gross to me. It's what keeps capitalism going.

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Shit, whats laughable is thinking Americans can go on buying useless trinkets every week only to throw them away 2 months down the line. You think American consumerism is sustainable? There's a difference between providing material abundance and the culture of capitalist consumerism in America. Whats laughable is you don't understand the difference. Another laughable fact is you kids are criticizing people who are actually out there doing things rather than sitting on their spoiled asses on some internet forum playing revolutionary. Post some pictures of things you're doing in the community or shut the fuck up. I'm obviously not in the mood for your petty bullshit. I suspect the only videos you'd have would be of you shopping.

[Amphictyonis]

i don't think the problem is that we shop too much, i think the problem is that we have an economic system that creates things like parasitic bankers, credit card debt, cheap goods that end up in landfills, etc.



fucking hippies:sneaky:

Because stupid people buy useless shit they throw away after one month. How do you think the garbage ends up in landfills? Consumorism is our idea of freedom and because so many people are pacified by this silly idea of freedom capitalism/wage slavery goes on into infinity. You seriously think a socialist revolution will happen while everyone is "free" to shop their happy little asses off? There's going to be material cause at the foundation of the revolution. I think communists shouldnt be praising or making excuses for capitalist consumerism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Have you ever lived in San Fransisco? My post isn't laughable at all. There's a major shopping fetish in this city.

I don't think that's unique to SF. I think it's pretty much the same in all cities of a comparable size in the United States.

[Amphictyonis]

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[Amphictyonis]

I don't think that's unique to SF. I think it's pretty much the same in all cities of a comparable size in the United States.

Mindless consumerism is rampant but it's on steroids in SF. I've lived in Dallas, been to Seattle, even LA with it's shallow culture is less fixated on shopping than San Fransisco. Market St is 24/7 shopping madness but thats all besides the point. There's a difference between the strange mindframe capitalism has created (consumerism) and providing material abundance.

[Amphictyonis]

Sorry for such a harsh response blackscare. I was having a bad day. You can call my posts laughable all you want. :)

[ellipsis]

A couple blocks from that Macys and the near by nordstom is skid row, litterally 30 plus people sitting in front of a row of checking cashing and
Liquor stores. SF is a different beast.

[Amphictyonis]

Since when did "communists" support capitalist generated consumerism? I hope some of the videos above changed some of your minds, especially the consuming kids documentary. You should watch the whole thing and get back to this thread.

[bailey_187]

if any 'communists' try this in london when im trying to spend my money ill knock ur head top off

[Amphictyonis]

if any 'communists' try this in london when im trying to spend my money ill knock ur head top off

Did you watch the consuming kids video? Obviously not. It's more than an hour long. Do you even understand the history of capitalism? It wasn't always like this- meaning, they've created our wants and desires via psychological manipulation. This started in the 1970's but the foundations were lain in the 1950's by Edward Bernays.

I don't expect you to concede any points. You're obviously immersed in this consumerist culture and don't have the ability to understand the difference between rational abundance and the sort of sick mind frame capitalism has created. You're willing to kill in order to shop. Thats sick. You're sick. No wonder communism is fruitless at the moment. All of it's so called adherents are memorized by the world capitalism has created. Pathetic if you ask me. Pathetic.

And don't try to act, for one second, I'm talking about basic shopping behavior....if you even know what that is. The people who should have their "heads taken off" are the assholes who passed a law saying we can't feed human beings. Obviously shopping is more important to you.

[bailey_187]

Did you watch the consuming kids video? Obviously not. It's more than an hour long.

nah my computer too slow to watch long online videos


Do you even understand the history of capitalism? It wasn't always like this- meaning, they've created our wants and desires via psychological manipulation. This started in the 1970's but the foundations were lain in the 1950's by Edward Bernays.

Essentialy you view working people as easily manipulated sheeple. Children basically. "No silly prole, u dont like that The Hundreds snapback (something i copped today, chyeea), you are told u like it, i know this"



I don't expect you to concede any points. You're obviously immersed in this consumerist culture and don't have the ability to understand the difference between rational abundance and the sort of sick mind frame capitalism has created. You're willing to kill in order to shop. Thats sick. You're sick. No wonder communism is fruitless at the moment. All of it's so called adherents are memorized by the world capitalism has created. Pathetic if you ask me. Pathetic.

Maybe. But if even i as someone who thinks of themselves as a Marxist cant get beyond this culture, how will most people who havnt.

Ill kill for a few things, not for that tho, dno why u think that.

See look at the kind of way u approaching this. im just a normal 19 year old living in london living like most kids out here and im getting called sick and pathetic.

[Amphictyonis]

nah my computer too slow to watch long online videos
And your school unwilling to teach you, hence your ignorance. In this case a positive way you can consume is to buy a faster computer.




Essentialy you view working people as easily manipulated sheeple. Children basically. "No silly prole, u dont like that The Hundreds snapback (something i copped today, chyeea), you are told u like it, i know this"

No human being is susceptible to psychological manipulation? I'd like to see your scientific proof propaganda has no impact. I'm willing to offer pages of examples showing the opposite.




Maybe. But if even i as someone who thinks of themselves as a Marxist cant get beyond this culture, how will most people who havnt."

Here in lies one of our problems, even so called Marxists have been 'pawned' by capitalism. This means you.





See look at the kind of way u approaching this. im just a normal 19 year old living in london living like most kids out here and im getting called sick and pathetic.

Because you said you'd lop the head off of anyone trying to protest a new law banning giving food to human beings in the interests of your shopping endeavors. Yes, you're sick. Normal by capitalist standards. Yes, normal. You're normal.

[Amphictyonis]

if any 'communists' try this in london when im trying to spend my money ill knock ur head top off

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about^

From each according to his ability to each according to need? I think not kid. You sound more like Ayn Rand

"I swear by my life and my love of it I will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine"


Change ideologies already.

[Ocean Seal]

This is an admirable attempt by the Food not Bombs organization to stop an unjust law, but the question remains: are those who shop at Macy's reactionaries. I wouldn't think so. First of all, Macy's is an accessible store for most working class people. They might not leave with a closet full of clothes when they go, but its not a store which is reserved only for the upper middle class and the bourgeoisie.

However, Amphictyonis makes several good points, regarding the nature of consumerism. What it does, is it shifts attention away from social problems like gentrification. The protest is a positive thing, but I guarantee that most shoppers going in are not from wealthy suburban areas but are rather workers. So hit consumerism hard, not the consumer.

[ellipsis]

Union square is not filled with proles Ill tell u that much, nordstroms Neman Marcus the ferarri store, etc. Sf has one of the highest costs of living in the country, to try to defend it's working class nature, especially in union square is laughable. I've can only afford to split a studio in the ghetto, a tiny portion of the city.

[Blackscare]

Have you ever lived in San Fransisco? My post isn't laughable at all. There's a major shopping fetish in this city.Again, that's not who I'm talking about or who the people in the video are (for the most part), they're average people trying to get presents for their family for a gift-giving holiday.


You'd have to experience it on adaily basis to understand.I live in NYC, but cool story bro.


The laws they pass to make these shoppers happy are laughable. What you should understand as a given is the difference between providing rational material abundance and the sort of crazy consumerism capitalism pushes on us.OH YEA TELL ME MORE I'VE NEVER HEARD THIS WONDROUS NEW THEORY OF YOURS. Actually, I know exactly what you mean, but you're conflating two different kinds of people, which is what I take issue with.





Shit, whats laughable is thinking Americans can go on buying useless trinkets every week only to throw them away 2 months down the line. You think American consumerism is sustainable?I do? Hah, that's news to me.


There's a difference between providing material abundance and the culture of capitalist consumerism in America. Whats laughable is you don't understand the difference.I do understand the difference, you're just a fool who has no reading comprehension. You're transmitting your anger at posh rich snobs and the posers who want to appear as such, with a huge, mixed crowd of people just trying to get some nice presents for their family on Christmas.


Another laughable fact is you kids are criticizing people who are actually out there doing things rather than sitting on their spoiled asses on some internet forum playing revolutionary.Ah, I didn't know I was spoiled working 40 hours on the books, plus about 10-15 off the books at a different job, every week, to pay for what is literally a 5x6 cubby hole in Brooklyn so I can save a few grand. I guess I should go get some sidewalk chalk and sit in front of a Macys then :laugh:


Post some pictures of things you're doing in the community or shut the fuck up.Somehow I don't think that has any bearing on what you're doing at all. Although, mr/mrs reading skills, I never commented on your little "action" at Macys anyway.


I'm obviously not in the mood for your petty bullshit.Funny, I thought calling anyone venturing out to get a present for their kids or grandma or whatever the fuck, and sitting in front of a store thinking that you're accomplishing something, could be considered petty bullshit.



I suspect the only videos you'd have would be of you shopping.ZING! You got me!


Look, I know you have this big anti-consumerism fetish, but I really don't give a shit. You can wave little signs and fart on the Macys sidewalk all you like, but I'm not obligated to pat you on the back and lie to you saying you're accomplishing anything. Keep in mind though that I never made any such comment in the first place, you just don't know how to read.


The problem isn't consumerism, it's capitalism, and if you think that you can somehow "fix" things within capitalism by ending consumerism, or whatever your loopy little goals are, I'd be inclined to call you a liberal.

Like that one guy in the cabin said, for every thousand people hacking at the branches there is one hacking at the roots.

[Blackscare]

This started in the 1970's but the foundations were lain in the 1950's by Edward Bernays.

Actually, it started in the 1920's, and it was good 'ol Eddy Bernays then too.
\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom

Look, I know you watched a few documentaries and now you think you're hot shit, but come off it. You're saying the obvious to everyone, believe me. Stop acting like a stuck up little snob and quit talking down to everyone.

We all know and understand why you're doing what you're doing, we just think your methods are petty, childish, and ineffectual.


You're practically foaming at the mouth here, calling everyone that disagrees with you a consumerist zombie or what have you, and it's really quite pathetic. Firstly, because obviously you don't know anyone here or what their lives or like. Second, because you're obviously just doing because you have no logical basis for you actions, so you try to cover up with over-emotional hysteria and emphasizing how lofty and just your cause is.
Actions and causes are two different things, and if you're not conducting the proper action you're doing the cause no favors.

[Blackscare]

Well, that's some boring liberal bullshit.
How about living in at war with the existent? Y'know, that thing called class war or social war that rages around us day in and day out? How about instead of whining, pathetically, "Oh, I have no choice! I'm forced to engage!" you fucking ATTACK.
The point is not to heighten awareness - as though there is anybody who doesn't know the obvious, staring them in the face everyday (this society is shit) - the point is to rise up against it.
The alternative to activism and mobilization isn't vilifying or throwing blame - it's taking some personal fucking responsibility for the type of world you want to live in. Is it bound to breed resentment from the people who are comfortable and content in this society? Abso-fucking-lutely! Do you want a revolution that doesn't breed resentment? Good luck!
What "alienates" people is the existent - if people are ever going to be anything other than alienated, then it's going to be an ugly business. You can pray for a revolution without a revolution, a grand shift in popular consciousness, or you can, as the stoopid protesters are so fond of chanting, but so afraid to put into practice - stand-up, fight back.

If we are escaping, it is only to come back and burn this prison down.
To do otherwise is suicide.



Last post here for today, but you realize that the irony of this post is that it's all "boring, liberal bullshit"? I'd add painfully and embarrassingly post-modern/pseduo-existentialist tripe, or whatever you're going for there.




If we are escaping, it is only to come back and burn this prison down.Seriously? What does that even mean? It means nothing, it's not an answer to the comment that inspired it, it's just flowery language used to obfuscate the fact that you have no argument.

You're a liberal, amphictowhatever is a liberal, although I'd say not theredson as he seems to have more of a concrete handle on reality. If you think that treating a symptom of capitalism is the answer, rather than struggling openly against the capitalist system itself, you are a liberal.

Seriously, learn to at least properly use revleft mud-flinging terms. There's nothing liberal about what August said, in fact it's pretty straight-forward hard line communism.

[Ele'ill]

So yeah, about the sidewalk ordinance. Portland recently had something similar passed. I tip my invisible hat towards those bringing it out of the shadows and into the light- regardless if they actually accomplished this or not.

[bcbm]

Because stupid people buy useless shit they throw away after one month. How do you think the garbage ends up in landfills? Consumorism is our idea of freedom and because so many people are pacified by this silly idea of freedom capitalism/wage slavery goes on into infinity. You seriously think a socialist revolution will happen while everyone is "free" to shop their happy little asses off? There's going to be material cause at the foundation of the revolution. I think communists shouldnt be praising or making excuses for capitalist consumerism.

you think a socialist revolution (lol) will happen while you're calling people who shop stupid?

[ed miliband]

you think a socialist revolution (lol) will happen while you're calling people who shop stupid?

Be a socialist! Throw off your consumerist chains and read this nice book by Naomi Klein!

[Amphictyonis]

The problem isn't consumerism, it's capitalism, and if you think that you can somehow "fix" things within capitalism by ending consumerism, or whatever your loopy little goals are, I'd be inclined to call you a liberal.

Like that one guy in the cabin said, for every thousand people hacking at the branches there is one hacking at the roots.

Thoreau would agree with criticizing out of control consumerism, in fact, why do you think he went to Walden Pond? Have you even read Walden? I wonder who came up with the whole 'voluntary simplicity' thing? Having that said of course the problem is capitalism but rampant consumerism is keeping it going. You have much to learn if you think things are as simple as you've lain out above. There are reasons past socialist revolutions failed. There are reasons we arent seeing any meaningful revolutions in advanced capitalist nations.

Past "socialist" revolutions have failed because the advanced capitalist nations didn't go socialist. Why is it you think advanced capitalist nations have not gone socialist? Why why oh why tell me why? What could it be?

[Amphictyonis]

you think a socialist revolution (lol) will happen while you're calling people who shop stupid?

You're mischaracterizing my argument. Grossly.

[Amphictyonis]

Be a socialist! Throw off your consumerist chains and read this nice book by Naomi Klein!

It would do you some good. Do you read or have you attained all of your "revolutionary" insight from this web site? You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm going to lay down and let you assholes gang up on me.

[ellipsis]

So yeah, about the sidewalk ordinance. Portland recently had something similar passed. I tip my invisible hat towards those bringing it out of the shadows and into the light- regardless if they actually accomplished this or not.

I think i remember hearing about that, a group called homeless liberation front camped out in front of city hall i think, it could have been seattle... lots of city's have these laws in place, but that DOESN"T make it right! I know you are not saying that but that was an argument proponents of the law made before the election.

[cenv]

Props to everyone fighting this. I don't live in SF any more, but I still come back here a lot and keep up to date on what's happening, and I couldn't believe this shit actually passed. This is an important struggle because we can't let the bourgeoisie take away our public spaces. If they even take away the streets, what do we have left? Wherever capital controls space, it also has a more firm chokehold on our lives.

Also, shit like "the shopping class" is what makes leftists laughable in the eyes of so many people. Blaming consumers for the world's problems is just another way the bourgeoisie diffuses blame that should be directed squarely at capitalism and the ruling class. We can't underestimate consumerism as a mechanism that psychologically reinforces capitalism, but consumers are not "the enemy."

[ed miliband]

Past "socialist" revolutions have failed because the advanced capitalist nations didn't go socialist. Why is it you think advanced capitalist nations have not gone socialist? Why why oh why tell me why? What could it be?

Because advanced capitalist nations have an advanced bourgeoisie that is adept at dealing with revolutionary working-class movements? In Britain socialism was co-opted by the Fabians and "Christian socialists" who rejected class struggle and instead preached of gradual change. Indeed, many working class Brits sincerely believed that by voting Labour in 1945 Britain would "go socialist"! Throughout the history of "advanced capitalist nations" there have been large, militant working class movements, and they were either co-opted (as in Britain), broken up, appeased, etc. The failure of these "advanced capitalist nations" to go socialist is not a reflection on the working classes of these nations, who you seem to imply didn't want socialism because they were slaves to capitalist consumption (I think that's what you're getting at?)

Surely that's basically a MTW argument - "'First World proletariat' can buy things in shops so they won't 'do' revolution"?

[Blackscare]

Thoreau would agree with criticizing out of control consumerism, in fact, why do you think he went to Walden Pond?Yes I have, you little snide shit, seriously stop acting like you're so much more enlightened than anyone else here. OMG you watched the century of the self and read Walden, my dear I bet nobody else on the whole wide internet is privy to your hidden knowledge.



the problem is capitalism but rampant consumerism is keeping it going.That, and a million other factors that you're leaving out here. But it is true, as long as capitalism exists consumerism will exist, as consumerism stimulates profit. But, I think you're naive if you think you should attack a single facet of capitalism first.


You have much to learn if you think things are as simple as you've lain out above.More snobbish bullshit, although I think it's fairly clear who here has much to learn and who is oversimplifying things.




Past "socialist" revolutions have failed because the advanced capitalist nations didn't go socialist. Why is it you think advanced capitalist nations have not gone socialist? Why why oh why tell me why? What could it be?
Are you seriously dumbing the entire previous century's revolutionary history down to consumerism here? Jesus Christ, I'll get back to this later. Expect a more in depth response later.

[Amphictyonis]

N50NRQB99Sw Capitalist generated consumerism is just part of the problem. Of course capitalism itself is THE problem but within capitalism there are certian 'functions' that keep it going. If a persons goal is to end capitalism accepting, no, completley jumping in head first to the world it creates is absurd. This is not limited to but includes consumerism, the military, syndicated television, main stream news papers- the entire sick culture capitalism has created and depends upon for it's continued survival. Why don't we go ahead and call it "The Matrix". Can you imagine a different reality? How so when you're so accepting of this one? It's more than just shopping it invades every fiber of our beings, we're saturated with capitalism and we won't end it by celebrating the military, the main stream media, mindless consumerism or any other integral function of the system. The reality capitalism has created cannot be ended without ending the reality capitalism has created. Thats your zen quote for the day. I'm going to ask you again, why do you think there have been no successful socialist revolutions in advanced capitalist nations? What keeps capitalism going in advanced capitalist nations? How do we get a multitude of millions of people to see and understand the alienation they're experiencing?


Calling me a 'little shit' is usually indicative of a person being a little shit themselves. You're going to become more angry with every post you make because you can't win. You decided to call my post laughable a few pages back and things aren't working out well for you. I understand your anger as I also have an ego. We can't always be right I guess. I'm trying to be patient with you but if the name calling persists I'll have to go fly a kite or something more productive. If I were psychic I'd say you're really just angry at the post I made in chit chat regarding AA meetings being a cult. Do you attend those meetings by any chance? Is this the root of your attack on me in this thread? If so I apologize. Anyhow if you liked Walden you should try this-http://www.swans.com/library/art7/xxx067.html

Holding my nose while being a wage slave for the past ten years is what I've been doing and the same implies for shopping. I don't have credit cards and if I can't afford something I don't buy it. The average credit card debt in America is 15,000 dollars. People are fixated on shopping. As a Marxist I would be a total hypocrite if I joined in a stampede at WalMart killing workers to get my shopping fix. I'd be a total **** if I stepped over starving people on my way to buy some diamond earrings. But hey, lets all just listen to good old G.W.B.


lfs6wpjlu28


(http://www.swans.com/library/art7/xxx067.html)