Would hardcore atheists "abolish" Christmas etc?

[ComradeMan]

How can a hardcore atheist celebrate Christmas given its "superstitious" origins, be they pagan or Christian?

This leads me to the question...

Do or would the hardcore atheists here seek to abolish such festivals, for example and primarly, given the season, Christmas?

[Optiow]

For lack of a better sentence, Christmas has been forced into our society and our minds. We are all taught to celebrate it (as well as other festivals) as children through Santa Claus (and Easter through nice little chocolate eggs). All these little things make it something that should be celebrated, because you have bee taught that way. Even if you are an atheist, Christmas is no longer Christian in my view. It is just an excuse for people to eat lots and spend time with their families.

That is why I celebrate Christmas - because the majority of people don't really celebrate Christmas because of Christianity (at least where I live).

As for abolishing Christmas...I don't think that would happen unless the majority of the population wanted it that way.

[¿Que?]

Well, it seems to me this question implies a sort of christocentric view of the world. After a worldwide socialist transformation, the only people hanging on to Christianity and its corresponding ritualism will be reactionaries. There will be no need to abolish anything. Christmas will disappear on its own as people will have no use for that kind of cultural baggage, which I might add, not all the world subscribes to.

[Rafiq]

What a silly question.

How would one "Abolish" christmas.

You do realize the goal of Socialism is complete democracy, right?

If everyone realized that Christmas was just a consumerist holiday, and decided not to celebrate it, eventually leading to it fading away, what's wrong with that?

[Pretty Flaco]

They abolished religious holidays during the French revolution.
It didn't work out so well.

[PilesOfDeadNazis]

I don't think there would be any reason to abolish it. Religious holidays(along with religions themselves) will fade away. In a Communist society, where is the room for a holiday which is used in modern times as an excuse to be assholes 99 percent of the year just because you know you can always wait until Christmas to ''make up for it''? Not saying that that is the only reason everyone celebrates.

But until the day when reason becomes the dominant way of seeing things, the people should celebrate what they wish if it doesn't somehow hinder the working class and its interests. People are going to keep religion and other ''comforting'' things like Christmas as a part of their lives until the need for such retreats into the hopeful imagination are abolished. Religion is the opiate of the masses.

In other words, Christmas will simply fade away with the slavery of the proletariat and alienation. Anyone who still wishes to ''convert'' people after the workers begin to take society is someone fighting for further dumbing-down of the working class and should be considered a reactionary. If Christmas is used as a persoal holiday there are no worries, but if it is used as a tool to spread ignorance then it should be argued against.

[Misanthrope]

DEATH 2 KKKRi$TMA$!!1!1



lol

http://cache.heraldinteractive.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grinch.jpg

Our leader in the anti-Christmas revolution.

Listen op, all of us here (I hope) are communists before atheists. Yes religion plays a big factor in capitalism but our main concern is abolishing capitalism that is a big enough task.

[Blackscare]

We will replace Christmas with international smack-a-white-baby day.

[Devrim]

I think that in lots of countries Christmas is pretty secular. I remember my father answering the door to some God botherers on Christmas Day that the last time he wanted to be fucking bothered by God and religion was at fucking Christmas. There is nothing wrong with a mid-winter holiday where people give gifts and get together with their families. Whether it would fade away under communism, continue as it is, or mutate into something entirely different is something that only the future can show us, not something we can prescribe now.

Devrim

[HEAD ICE]

I think this is the first time I've seen Devrim swear.

[Devrim]

I think this is the first time I've seen Devrim swear.

It is reported speech. It is what the old man actually shouted at this Mormon (or whatever he was) as he picked him up by his shirt lapels.

Actually if you ever meet me in the flesh, you will discover that I swear like at trooper in English.

Devrim

[Amphictyonis]

Everyday would be Christmas in an advanced communist society. Material Abundance! Plus everyone knows Jesus was a communist.

[ComradeMan]

What a silly question.

How would one "Abolish" christmas.

You do realize the goal of Socialism is complete democracy, right?

If everyone realized that Christmas was just a consumerist holiday, and decided not to celebrate it, eventually leading to it fading away, what's wrong with that?


Well it was sort of abolished in Cuba.

[Revolution starts with U]

The mythology can go (or not, w/e) behind it, but it makes sense to have a big winter holiday. Mostly the holiday is for friends and family to get together and feast, regardless of its modern popular incarnations.

[Thirsty Crow]

How can a hardcore atheist celebrate Christmas given its "superstitious" origins, be they pagan or Christian?I can "celebrate" an imaginary event if it leads me to indulgence in lots of yummy foodstuffs and hangning out with my family :tt2:




Do or would the hardcore atheists here seek to abolish such festivals, for example and primarly, given the season, Christmas?
No Christmas presents for you!
Anyone caught with a christmas tree will be immediately deported to forced labour camps!

No, seriously, what kind of question is this? If people find the tradition and its surrounding customs, meaningful and would like to continue with it - I don't see a reason why they should not.
The trick is to disempower the hierarchical religious institutions, not to throw everything out the window with what could be called a great degree of coercion and direct violence.

[Revolutionair]

Honestly I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Christmas is NOT a religious holiday. Maybe it started out as one X years ago, but nobody celebrates Christmas for the religious meaning it had a long time ago.

[Thirsty Crow]

Honestly I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Christmas is NOT a religious holiday. Maybe it started out as one X years ago, but nobody celebrates Christmas for the religious meaning it had a long time ago.
So you would deny the fact that there is the tradition of midnight mass which people attend and publicly, and privately, reinforce their notion of a specifically religious holiday?

That's hillarious.

[Revolution starts with U]

I remember midnight mass as a boy. And then going back for mass in the morning... ah the good ol days... wait no... FUCK THAT!! I just wanted to play with all my new toys, or at the very least SLEEP. Catholicism is child abuse! ;)

[Thirsty Crow]

Catholicism is child abuse! ;)Speaking of child abuse, it is incredible how clerical authorities (and a good portion of "regular" believers too) reject the simple fact of not-so-nice potential outcomes when it comes to repressing your natural urges.
I believe that we could conclude that Catholic doctrine is indirectly responsible for real acts of sexual abuse.

[ComradeMan]

Honestly I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Christmas is NOT a religious holiday. Maybe it started out as one X years ago, but nobody celebrates Christmas for the religious meaning it had a long time ago.


Christmas "Christ"
Yule- Pagan
Natale- "nativity"
Solstice- Sol- Sol invictus
Saturnalia- Saturn- Roman God.
Mithras was born on the 25th December.

Come to Italy to see how unreligious it is.... :lol:

This is not a debate about the institution of the Catholic Church which does not have exclusive rights to Christmas. This is about the celebration of Christian and non-Christian "midwinter" festivals.

It seems to me that people who are so adamantly atheist and against religion and "superstition" in all its forms suddenly compromise this when a present, a bottle of spumante and a piece of cake are at stake.... :lol:

[Aeval]

If people did want to abolish Christmas though it'd be pretty easy, you'd just have to tell people that you've made a new awesome holiday where you decorate things with pretty lights, get presents and eat and drink yourself half to death but this one's going to last 5 full days rather than the two and half you get with Christmas (in the UK at least) :)

It'd be a depressing part of the year without some type of holiday, far too dark and cold :(

[Revolutionair]

So you would deny the fact that there is the tradition of midnight mass which people attend and publicly, and privately, reinforce their notion of a specifically religious holiday?

That's hillarious.

There is no midnight mass here. There is no reinforcement that Christmas is a religious holiday.

The only thing that we celebrate when it's Christmas is that we have a tree with pwetty lights and that we got some vacation.

[ComradeMan]

There is no midnight mass here. There is no reinforcement that Christmas is a religious holiday.

The only thing that we celebrate when it's Christmas is that we have a tree with pwetty lights and that we got some vacation.

The Christmas Tree is a Christian Symbol originating with the martyred Saint Boniface.

[Rafiq]

Well it was sort of abolished in Cuba.

Yeah, just like how Cuba banned Micheal moores film: sicko
:rolleyes:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It seems to me that people who are so adamantly atheist and against religion and "superstition" in all its forms suddenly compromise this when a present, a bottle of spumante and a piece of cake are at stake.... :lol:

That's because you don't need to believe in anything to enjoy such things as a gift from a loved one, a nice drink and a tasty treat in the depths of winter when it's cold, dark and depressing.

Since midwinter festivals transcend cultural boundaries, I'd say that they are here to stay as long as people are A) living on Earth in the higher latitudes of the northern hemisphere and B) recognisably human.

[Cane Nero]

Well it was sort of abolished in Cuba.
Something that makes us ask: Cuba really is socialist?

[theAnarch]

there seems to be a real contrast in how christmas is celebrated in Europe and America.

Christmas is almost completly secular in the US, espescially here in the south.

[Lord Testicles]

Christmas is about getting together with your friends and family, drinking copious amounts of booze and eating until you feel ill before finally wrapping up the holiday by rehashing old family feuds. I don't see were religion comes into it any more. Nobody I know (some of them religious) goes to Christmas mass or even see Christmas in a spiritual light, it's an excuse to get together and get really drunk.
If I suggested that we thank Jesus or sing a hymn, I'd rightly get told to shut the fuck up.

[ComradeMan]

Yeah, just like how Cuba banned Micheal moores film: sicko
:rolleyes:

Non sequitur- homosexuality was also frowned upon to the point it was actively persecuted, but what's that got to do with Christmas?

Fail.

For the rest- so we are all so adamantly anti-religion and all superstition but not the bits we like--- I see. :lol:

[Lord Testicles]

For the rest- so we are all so adamantly anti-religion and all superstition but not the bits we like--- I see. :lol:

Christmas is about presents and alcohol not Jesus "Magic-man" Christ. We've stolen it and changed it's meaning, you know just like the church did. :)

[ComradeMan]

Christmas is about presents and alcohol not Jesus "Magic-man" Christ. We've stolen it and changed it's meaning, you know just like the church did. :)

Well not really- you can't steal a "festival" as such, I am surprised you are ascribing "intellectual property" rights to a festival.

What's the first part of Christmas- "Christ"- ? You would have to change the name too, but to what? Nothing with religious connotations whatsoever... and here's the funny part... people would still celebrate Christmas, Diwali, Hannukah etc etc... ;)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well not really- you can't steal a "festival" as such, I am surprised you are ascribing "intellectual property" rights to a festival.

Are you that daft? It's long been known that the supposed birth of Christ was moved to compete with Pagan rituals.


What's the first part of Christmas- "Christ"- ?

What's in a name? If people are celebrating Chistmas in a way that makes no reference to Christ at all, it's rather beside the point.

[Lord Testicles]

Millions of people celebrate Christmas but not because Jesus was born on that day but because it's a holiday. I ask you, were is the religious connotation apart from the name?

People celebrate Christmas not Christ.

[ComradeMan]

Are you that daft? It's long been known that the supposed birth of Christ was moved to compete with Pagan rituals.

Not really, seeing as the Romans chose that date since they needed one and it corresponded with the Emperor Constantine's cult of the undefeated Sun- Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. However this is also controversial seeing as there is next to no evidence that Dies Natalis Solis Invicti predated Roman Christianity at all and the pagan Romans did not, I believe, actually have a major festival on that date, i.e. 25th December (Saturnalia finished around the 23rd).

Added to this there is the fact that the cult of Mithras was very popular amongst the Roman legions and Mithras was born on the 25th Dec- the Mithras "mythos" is very similar in a way to early Christian ideas so there could be a link there. The problem with this is that Mithraism was very much dead as a cult by the beginning of the 4th century and before the "establishment" of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire- although that is not to say it did not have an influence,

The actual celebration and promotion of Christmas came after Constantine though, around the mid-4th century.

The fact that later traditions were incorporated speaks more of tolerance in a sense that wiping things out- bear in mind the context of the times.


What's in a name? If people are celebrating Chistmas in a way that makes no reference to Christ at all, it's rather beside the point.

The very word Christmas makes reference to Christ- and also you could argue that a rose by any other name would still be a rose. :lol:

[L.A.P.]

I celebrate Christmas for the same reason I look at pictures of naked girls on the internet, because it's a good fucking time!

Perfect quote

[revolution inaction]

So you would deny the fact that there is the tradition of midnight mass which people attend and publicly, and privately, reinforce their notion of a specifically religious holiday?

That's hillarious.

virtual no one goes to them, i don't think i've ever met someone who went to midnight mass, if any one i know does then they keep quite about it. the only time i here such things mentioned is when some religus nutter is complaining about how people have "forgotten the true meaning of christmas" by which i think they mean something about jesus and not getting together with family and friends and eating and drinking loads, which as everyone knows is the actual purpose of christmas.

[Magón]

I'd abolish that shit, and every other holiday, except for Halloween. Halloween would stay Halloween, but Easter, Christmas, etc. would all become December Holiday, April Holiday, etc. :p

[Burn A Flag]

I'm against abolishing Christmas, but I think it could be modified and adapted to be a less consumerist and Christian Holiday. Do away with certain traditions fine, but still keep a fun holiday in its place. Kind of like what the Catholic Church did to gain membership, they put Christian holidays on the same days as Pagan holidays. I'm saying we should do sort of the same thing.

Not that we're even in a position to change this right now. I think the only thing necessary to change Christmas is by changing some of the external culture such as media, etc about Christmas.

[Burn A Flag]

virtual no one goes to them, i don't think i've ever met someone who went to midnight mass, if any one i know does then they keep quite about it. the only time i here such things mentioned is when some religus nutter is complaining about how people have "forgotten the true meaning of christmas" by which i think they mean something about jesus and not getting together with family and friends and eating and drinking loads, which as everyone knows is the actual purpose of christmas.

I'm a little embarassed to say that my parents still make me attend the "midnight mass" an church services which I hear clergymen ranting about losing the meaning of Christmas. The way they rant about hating technology is pretty funny. Almost like they're primitivists.

[Ninel]

I would ban christmas decorations, music and media as I hate it and stop gift giving so that if Christians are going to have their festival they're gonna do it properly and how they should.

[Devrim]

there seems to be a real contrast in how christmas is celebrated in Europe and America.

Christmas is almost completly secular in the US, espescially here in the south.

I think it is pretty secular throughout most of Europe, and I certainly imagine that less people in Europe attend a church service at Christmas.

Devrim

[bricolage]

Every year on Eastenders Dot Cotton will get upset noone is celebrating the 'true meaning of christmas' and eventually some people will sing carols with her or something. In actual fact this has no relevance to the way most people in the UK spend christmas. I know some people that used to get drunk and go to midnight mass when they were younger but most people when given four days off work would rather not spend any of it sitting in a cold church.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Not really, seeing as the Romans chose that date since they needed one and it corresponded with the Emperor Constantine's cult of the undefeated Sun- Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. However this is also controversial seeing as there is next to no evidence that Dies Natalis Solis Invicti predated Roman Christianity at all and the pagan Romans did not, I believe, actually have a major festival on that date, i.e. 25th December (Saturnalia finished around the 23rd).

What isn't controversial is the virtual extirpation of the pagan religion. Temples were closed or converted into basilicas, sacrifices were no longer made except in rural areas, and who cares what a bunch of shitkickers are doing? The fact that Hypatia was murdered by a Christian mob gives the flavour of the ascendant Christianity.

In such a context, it's hardly incredible that Christmas was moved so close to the dates of the old rituals (in fact, there would have been some overlap as there would have been some build-up to such an important festival).


The very word Christmas makes reference to Christ- and also you could argue that a rose by any other name would still be a rose. :lol:

So fucking what? The names of the weekdays refer to Pagan gods - that doesn't make us all Pagans.

[ComradeMan]

I think it is pretty secular throughout most of Europe, and I certainly imagine that less people in Europe attend a church service at Christmas. Devrim

I disagree, it may be the case in more secular northern/north-western Europe- I don't know about Eastern Europe but in Mediterranean Europe I would say the opposite is true. In fact, people who often don't go to mass at any other time of the year will often turn up for Midnight Mass on the 24th.


What isn't controversial is the virtual extirpation of the pagan religion. Temples were closed or converted into basilicas, sacrifices were no longer made except in rural areas, and who cares what a bunch of shitkickers are doing? The fact that Hypatia was murdered by a Christian mob gives the flavour of the ascendant Christianity.

Yes, like the Christians who had previously been thrown to the lions for not accepting the divinity of a living man- i.e. the emperor.

If you can't actually discuss stuff without third-rate highschool level comments "who cares what a bunch of shitkickers are doing?" then really there isn't much point discussing with you at all.


In such a context, it's hardly incredible that Christmas was moved so close to the dates of the old rituals (in fact, there would have been some overlap as there would have been some build-up to such an important festival).

It wasn't "moved" as it wasn't really celebrated that much before anyway. The rest of your hypothesis is laughable- where's your evidence to suggest this?


So fucking what? The names of the weekdays refer to Pagan gods - that doesn't make us all Pagans.

Yes.... but we don't celebrate them as major festivals do we? Duh!

If you are going to "prosecute" as such, you better have better "evidence" in order to build your case....:lol:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yes, like the Christians who had previously been thrown to the lions for not accepting the divinity of a living man- i.e. the emperor.

I never denied that pagans were capable of nasty behaviour, so what's your point?


If you can't actually discuss stuff without third-rate highschool level comments "who cares what a bunch of shitkickers are doing?" then really there isn't much point discussing with you at all.

More style over substance bullshit. If you can't deal with my style, fuck off already, I'm not changing for likes of spineless apologists like you. Considering you've compared me to the Phelps clan, you should be fucking grateful I'm even giving you the time of day.


It wasn't "moved" as it wasn't really celebrated that much before anyway. The rest of your hypothesis is laughable- where's your evidence to suggest this?

It's a historical fact that the ascendancy of Christianity was aided by the Roman ruling classes taking a shine to it, you're a fool if you think that had nothing to do with it.


Yes.... but we don't celebrate them as major festivals do we? Duh!

They used to have spiritual significance, otherwise they wouldn't have been named so. But then the dominant religion changed and the names of the days lingered as a remnant... as does the name of Christmas for those who aren't Christians and celebrate it in a completely secular fashion.


If you are going to "prosecute" as such, you better have better "evidence" in order to build your case....:lol:

Up yours, prick.

[Devrim]

I disagree, it may be the case in more secular northern/north-western Europe- I don't know about Eastern Europe but in Mediterranean Europe I would say the opposite is true. In fact, people who often don't go to mass at any other time of the year will often turn up for Midnight Mass on the 24th.

I am pretty sure that the same process happens to a certain extent in all countries. However, I wasn't comparing to other times of year but to the US, which is a very very religious country.

Devrim

[Crimson Commissar]

Anyone who wants to abolish christmas is, in my opinion, a twat. But people who still want Christmas to be an actual religious festival are also twats. The only thing I dislike about Christmas is the name, seeing as it's practically the only thing religious about it anymore. Change the name and it will pretty much be a 100% secular holiday.

[ComradeMan]

I never denied that pagans were capable of nasty behaviour, so what's your point?

:lol:




More style over substance bullshit. If you can't deal with my style, fuck off already, I'm not changing for likes of spineless apologists like you. Considering you've compared me to the Phelps clan, you should be fucking grateful I'm even giving you the time of day.

You're an idiot as House would say. I said your arguments were on the same level, which they are.


It's a historical fact that the ascendancy of Christianity was aided by the Roman ruling classes taking a shine to it, you're a fool if you think that had nothing to do with it..

But... but.... that's what I did point out, but we weren't debating that.


They used to have spiritual significance, otherwise they wouldn't have been named so. But then the dominant religion changed and the names of the days lingered as a remnant... as does the name of Christmas for those who aren't Christians and celebrate it in a completely secular fashion.

Wrong again. In fact the ancient Roman pagans did not really use that system at all, it was a very late development. In fact there was no one Roman religion at all really.... sorry, you fail again because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.


Up yours, prick.

Sums up your level as an ignorant asshole incapable of debate with a third rate knowledge of history and overbearing arrogance- typical of most ignorami.

[Pretty Flaco]

Anyone who wants to abolish christmas is, in my opinion, a twat. But people who still want Christmas to be an actual religious festival are also twats. The only thing I dislike about Christmas is the name, seeing as it's practically the only thing religious about it anymore. Change the name and it will pretty much be a 100% secular holiday.

Happy Winter Holiday! :lol:

Actually, I think very few people realize that the name "Christmas" came from "Christ's Mass".

[ComradeMan]

But people who still want Christmas to be an actual religious festival are also twats.

Despite the fact it's a religious festival! :lol:

Sorry- but there is no justification for atheists stealing a festival they fundamentally ought to reject. Perhaps they could all go round to Dawkin's house and have fun talking about evolution.... LOL!!!

[Dave B]

I think, as has been mentioned, the date of Christmas and for that matter Easter was moved around and adopted to fit in with Pagan festivals in Europe.

There is evidence from early Christian sources circa 200-300 AD that ‘some’ Christians’ believed and celebrated the actual date over the range of March to May.

Fitting in, allegedly, with ‘internal evidence’ concerning at what point in the year shepherds would be likely to ‘be watching their flocks by night’.

That requires some understanding of ‘simple husbandry’ in the 1st century Levant which is not my area of expertise.

For those who like to be informed about trivial information there is another more comprehensive ‘version’ of the nativity story in the;

BOOK OF JAMES, OR PROTEVANGELIUM

You might want to cut past the stuff on the virgin Mary’s CV at the beginning.

It merits consideration for students on the documented history of Christianity as it is generally considered to be pre 2nd to 3rd century in origin due to, amongst other things, cross referenced citations of it elsewhere etc.

Justin the Martyr seems to refer to its existence circa AD 150, and although there is no real evidence that the extant version corresponds to that, there is some corroboration or correspondence eg JC having been born in a ‘cave’ etc.

There was an oral tradition to that effect but there is always a problem of what came first etc.

They often carved out caves in soft rock etc to make stables etc or used caves for stables.

Later versions of Christianity ie Roman Catholicism, wanted to bury this kind of stuff as for some reason the idea of Joseph having been previously married and widowed and JC having elder step brothers (and sisters) etc interfered with the purity of the story.

Despite the many references in the Gospel documents of JC having had brothers and sisters, James being one of them as cited by Origen circa 250 AD and in one of Paul’s letters I think

http://www.gnosis.org/library/gosjames.htm (http://www.gnosis.org/library/gosjames.htm)

I am not very good when it comes to IT stuff and navigating around forums but I am having all sorts of problems logging on etc and Revleft won't or example let me post on militarisation of labour thread and all I wanted was to post a link.

how can I contact the administrators?

..

[Rafiq]

Non sequitur- homosexuality was also frowned upon to the point it was actively persecuted, but what's that got to do with Christmas?

Fail.

For the rest- so we are all so adamantly anti-religion and all superstition but not the bits we like--- I see. :lol:

Homosexuality today in Cuba is completely legal and free.

The fact that you actually believe Cuba banned christmas is absurd.

Cuba just as much banned christmas as they banned the film: sicko

[ComradeMan]

Homosexuality today in Cuba is completely legal and free.

The fact that you actually believe Cuba banned christmas is absurd.

Cuba just as much banned christmas as they banned the film: sicko

Homosexuals were [PAST TENSE] persecuted for decades in Cuba on the basis of socialism. That fact remains and that was the point.

The fact that you post on a site and know fuck all is even more absurd.


In December 1998, Castro formally re-instated Christmas Day as the official celebration for the first time since its abolition by the Communist Party in 1969. Cubans were again allowed to mark Christmas as a holiday and to openly hold religious processions. The Pope sent a telegram to Castro thanking him for restoring Christmas as a public holiday.
Rother, Larry (January 28, 1998). "Pope Condemns Embargo; Castro Attends Mass" (http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/012698pope-cuba-rdp.html). The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/012698pope-cuba-rdp.html. <LI id=cite_note-119>^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-119) "Castro ratifies Christmas holiday" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/228764.stm). BBC News. December 5 1998. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/228764.stm. Retrieved 2006-05-20.
^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-120) "Pope's Christmas message for Castro" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/243705.stm). BBC News. December 28 1998. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/243705.stm. Retrieved 2006-05-20.


Oops...

Fail.

[Crimson Commissar]

Despite the fact it's a religious festival! :lol:

Sorry- but there is no justification for atheists stealing a festival they fundamentally ought to reject. Perhaps they could all go round to Dawkin's house and have fun talking about evolution.... LOL!!!
Christians stole it, we can steal it too. Besides, none of us are saying it should be a strictly atheist holiday. All we want is for it to be secular, so that anyone can take part without being pressured into going along with the mindless cult-like worship of Jesus that often goes on at this time of the year. The modern version of christmas is infact not very christian at all. I'd even say that it is actually a socialist holiday, the Christian bullshit has literally NOTHING to do with the socialistic ideals that Christmas promotes.

[ComradeMan]

Christians stole it, we can steal it too.

They stole it? Lol- was it property? Could it be stolen? But then claiming it was "property" would imply it was theft in the first place.


Besides, none of us are saying it should be a strictly atheist holiday. All we want is for it to be secular, so that anyone can take part without being pressured into going along with the mindless cult-like worship of Jesus that often goes on at this time of the year.

Are you forced into putting up a tree? Going to mass or seeing your family and friends? I suppose you would object to being forced to take the holidays from school or work.... Yeah, fucking hypocritical of you taking the holidays and the holiday pay (if applicable).

Below you state it is not very Christian at all and yet above you state the "mindless" cult-like worship of Jesus that goes on. Which is it? Anyway, you aren't forced to celebrate anything- you could also turn your TV off and a read something interesting like the God Delusion..... :lol:


The modern version of christmas is infact not very christian at all. I'd even say that it is actually a socialist holiday, the Christian bullshit has literally NOTHING to do with the socialistic ideals that Christmas promotes.

Peace and goodwill to all? Tolerance and charity- remembering those less fortunate and trying to help out...

I'm beginning to wonder what socialist values are... considering Jesus was pretty much a socialist by all accounts. The things that people complain about Christmas, the isolation, the alienation and the commercialisation are wel... really to do with capitalism aren't they?

You've just confirmed my point again- you want the bits you like. :lol:

Even Fidel reinstated Christmas.... :lol:

[Revolution starts with U]

Jesus was a primitivist. I like the guy. But I don't see where Jesus advocated for worker's democratic control of the means of production and exchange.

[ComradeMan]

Jesus was a primitivist. I like the guy. But I don't see where Jesus advocated for worker's democratic control of the means of production and exchange.


Well Jesus was a low paid worker who organised his fellow to challenge the authority of the state. Also the Sabbath guaranteed the workers at least one day off. If you apply the principle of "do unto others" to the workplace, labour relations and the means of production and exchange, the fairness of which is also ordered in the Bible elsewhere, then you could argue that Jesus was pretty much a socialist- or did he have to spell it out literally with abstruse economics?

[Crimson Commissar]

They stole it? Lol- was it property? Could it be stolen? But then claiming it was "property" would imply it was theft in the first place.
You were the one who just told me it "isn't right" for atheists to steal christmas from christians. :rolleyes:


Are you forced into putting up a tree? Going to mass or seeing your family and friends? I suppose you would object to being forced to take the holidays from school or work.... Yeah, fucking hypocritical of you taking the holidays and the holiday pay (if applicable).

Where I live there's not really many christians to be honest, but in a country as religious as America, christians throw all sort of bullshit propaganda around trying to force people into worshipping Jesus at christmas.


Below you state it is not very Christian at all and yet above you state the "mindless" cult-like worship of Jesus that goes on. Which is it? Anyway, you aren't forced to celebrate anything- you could also turn your TV off and a read something interesting like the God Delusion..... :lol:
The holiday itself isn't very christian, that doesn't mean christians don't exploit it to spread propaganda.


Peace and goodwill to all? Tolerance and charity- remembering those less fortunate and trying to help out...

I'm beginning to wonder what socialist values are... considering Jesus was pretty much a socialist by all accounts. The things that people complain about Christmas, the isolation, the alienation and the commercialisation are wel... really to do with capitalism aren't they?
Jesus was the first fascist. He may have had sympathy for the poor, but you forget that many fascists try to win the support of the working class aswell. In abrahamic religion, God is the dictator who is all-powerful and forces everyone to follow him, and the many "prophets" are his mindless followers who spread propaganda and fear amongst the people. There is nothing socialist about there being some crazed space dictator who has his own fiery torture chamber. Actually, after writing that, God seems a lot like HITLER, doesn't he? ;)


You've just confirmed my point again- you want the bits you like. :lol:

Even Fidel reinstated Christmas.... :lol:
There's nothing spiritual or supernatural about people being kind to eachother and giving gifts. Those are the secular parts of christmas, and they should be the only parts of christmas IMO. None of this jesus worship shit.

[ComradeMan]

Jesus was the first fascist... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

The facists themselves weren't generally fond of religion- it doesn't go with Jesus the "facsist's" "render unto Caesar that which is Caeasar and unto God that which is God's"- whole idea, nor really turning the other cheeck, forgiveness and doing unto others... not really.

I am not accusing people of stealing Christmas, I'm saying that hardcore atheists who celebrate Christmas in whatever form are being hypocritical.

BTW- who is the space-dictator to whom you refer? Is it Adon-Ay perhaps? Actually refers to an Egyptian Pharoah. Ooops... but then a lot of religionists don't know or want to know this either.

Ever wondered why it is described as the "New" Testament?

You are a bit of an ignorant prick really aren't you?

[Crimson Commissar]

Jesus was the first fascist... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

You are a bit of an ignorant prick really aren't you?
I already explained why. Why not actually reply to it instead of just spamming smilies like an idiot.

[ComradeMan]

I already explained why. Why not actually reply to it instead of just spamming smilies like an idiot.

I already answered you... learn to read.

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't think I would call Jesus a fascist. He was an internationalist (teach to the Gentiles), and had compassion for those without; as opposed to the cultural darwinism (I hate perverting the word darwinist like that :cursing:) practiced by fascists. But..

Well Jesus was a low paid worker who organised his fellow to challenge the authority of the state. Also the Sabbath guaranteed the workers at least one day off. If you apply the principle of "do unto others" to the workplace, labour relations and the means of production and exchange, the fairness of which is also ordered in the Bible elsewhere, then you could argue that Jesus was pretty much a socialist- or did he have to spell it out literally with abstruse economics?
Actually, carpentry was quite well compensated at the time. It took time skill and resource to be a carpenter back in those days. Jesus' family would have been by no means poor (how many poor families do you really think were able to send their children to temple to personally debate with the Rabbi?).
He did encourage people to challenge the authority of the state, but that merely makes him an anarchist, not a socialist. The sabbath is a much older concept, tho he did support it. But it is not a "day off" in the sense a socialist would see it. A socialist would see/want a day off for the worker so the worker can pursue his passions. You are supposed to nothing on the sabbath. Your day off is not the day you finally get to sit down and write that book.
Do unto others... well that's self-evident. It is a good rule to live by, but is by no means exclusive to socialism.

What Jesus advocated was the complete forsaking of all property and productive process, and instead to live in search of more divine truths. Jesus would not support worker control of the industrial sector, per se, as much as he would support its complete abolition. He was a primitivist.

(Don't get me wrong, he's a personal hero of mine, and there is much to learn. But he is far more primitive than socialist.)

[Revolution starts with U]

I already answered you... learn to read.

Was he supposed to predict your edit?

[Crimson Commissar]

BTW- who is the space-dictator to whom you refer? Is it Adon-Ay perhaps? Actually refers to an Egyptian Pharoah. Ooops... but then a lot of religionists don't know or want to know this either.
The god of christianity, islam, and judaism. It's pretty clear that he is not a caring or loving god, and seeing as Jesus commands us to worship him or burn in hell, that seems pretty fascistic to me.

[Rafiq]

Comrademan, that same source also claimed cuba banned sicko. There is a difference between banning and making it a state official holiday.

You believe any source with a big name.


Fail.

[Rafiq]

Homosexuals were [PAST TENSE] persecuted for decades in Cuba on the basis of socialism. That fact remains and that was the point.

The fact that you post on a site and know fuck all is even more absurd.


In December 1998, Castro formally re-instated Christmas Day as the official celebration for the first time since its abolition by the Communist Party in 1969. Cubans were again allowed to mark Christmas as a holiday and to openly hold religious processions. The Pope sent a telegram to Castro thanking him for restoring Christmas as a public holiday.
Rother, Larry (January 28, 1998). "Pope Condemns Embargo; Castro Attends Mass" (http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/012698pope-cuba-rdp.html). The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/012698pope-cuba-rdp.html. <LI id=cite_note-119>^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-119) "Castro ratifies Christmas holiday" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/228764.stm). BBC News. December 5 1998. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/228764.stm. Retrieved 2006-05-20.
^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-120) "Pope's Christmas message for Castro" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/243705.stm). BBC News. December 28 1998. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/243705.stm. Retrieved 2006-05-20.


Oops...

Fail.


I fully trust new York times and BBC :lol:

The same people who think China is communist.

[ComradeMan]

Actually, carpentry was quite well compensated at the time. It took time skill and resource to be a carpenter back in those days. Jesus' family would have been by no means poor (how many poor families do you really think were able to send their children to temple to personally debate with the Rabbi?).

Source? He was from humble Galilee too, not the prestigious part of Judaea either and his social-circle were fisherman etc... so we need a source for the carpenter's wages of the time.


He did encourage people to challenge the authority of the state, but that merely makes him an anarchist, not a socialist. The sabbath is a much older concept, tho he did support it. But it is not a "day off" in the sense a socialist would see it. A socialist would see/want a day off for the worker so the worker can pursue his passions. You are supposed to nothing on the sabbath. Your day off is not the day you finally get to sit down and write that book.

That is of course contradicted by Mark 2:26-27
(26)In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.

(27) Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."


Do unto others... well that's self-evident. It is a good rule to live by, but is by no means exclusive to socialism..

No, but could you really call yourself a socialist if you didn't follow that line? Isn't that what identity politics is often about these days- i.e. equality and fairness?


What Jesus advocated was the complete forsaking of all property and productive process, and instead to live in search of more divine truths. Jesus would not support worker control of the industrial sector, per se, as much as he would support its complete abolition. He was a primitivist.

Property is theft, as long as there is the concept of private property there can be no true socialism.

I'm not so sure about that other part- also it's a bit anachronistic too seeing as we can't talk about industrial sectors in the modern sense during the time. Had he lived now I am sure he would have been a worker agitator!!!


Comrademan, that same source also claimed cuba banned sicko. There is a difference between banning and making it a state official holiday.

You believe any source with a big name.
Fail.

It's a well-known fact shit for brains.

Por ANNE-MARIE GARCIA-LA HABANA, Actualización: martes, 22 de diciembre de 2009 10:51
LA HABANA (AP) En Cuba, la Navidad dejó de ser oficialmente feriado durante 28 años --entre 1969 y 1997--. En diciembre de ese último año se restableció en consideración a la visita del papa Juan Pablo II, prevista para enero siguiente y en 1998 se declaró como feriado por ley, recordó Márquez.
http://www.miscelaneasdecuba.net/media/Web/CubanNewsDecember232009.htm

[graymouser]

After the revolution I would want a winter holiday called Yule or something like that - sure it could unofficially be Christmas but it would have almost nothing to do with religion, which was always a shady excuse anyway. The truth is, people have mid-winter festivals and have come up with various religious justifications for them after the fact Fuck it and enjoy the mid-winter festival.

[ComradeMan]

After the revolution I would want a winter holiday called Yule or something like that - sure it could unofficially be Christmas but it would have almost nothing to do with religion, which was always a shady excuse anyway. The truth is, people have mid-winter festivals and have come up with various religious justifications for them after the fact Fuck it and enjoy the mid-winter festival.

Yule is religious.

About AD 730, the English historian Bede wrote that the Anglo-Saxon calendar included the months geola or giuli corresponding with either modern December or December and January. He gave December 25 as the first day of the heathen year and wrote that the Anglo-Saxons celebrated all night long to honor the Germanic divine "mothers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

In fact any Midwinter holiday drawing on any tradition would be de facto based on a religious tradition.

Even the concept of a holiday itself is in fact of religious origin.

No, in a truly atheist society there would be no Sunday/Shabbat/etc, no holidays and no festivals- as they are nearly all derived from religion or superstition.

EDIT- Someone neutral repped me and denounced me as giving atheists a bad name... LOL!!!!!!!!!!! The irony....

[Rafiq]

Yes Comrademan because a Cuban dissident site is much better.

[Magón]

No, in a truly atheist society there would be no Sunday/Shabbat/etc, no holidays and no festivals- as they are nearly all derived from religion or superstition.

1. How do you know that? (About there being no more Sunday.)

2. I'd still have a Sunday, it'd just be like every other day of the week. Just like it is now.

3. WHY NO SUNDAY!!!!!

4. What if I make up new holidays in an atheist society, that aren't based on religions or religious superstitions?

[Che a chara]

I think the tradition and festival of christmas will live on even in an advanced communist society. But it will be less about material possessions, and more about harmony and yes still about feasting and celebrating. a reformed and revamped christmas you could say.

[graymouser]

Yule is religious.

About AD 730, the English historian Bede wrote that the Anglo-Saxon calendar included the months geola or giuli corresponding with either modern December or December and January. He gave December 25 as the first day of the heathen year and wrote that the Anglo-Saxons celebrated all night long to honor the Germanic divine "mothers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

In fact any Midwinter holiday drawing on any tradition would be de facto based on a religious tradition.

Even the concept of a holiday itself is in fact of religious origin.

No, in a truly atheist society there would be no Sunday/Shabbat/etc, no holidays and no festivals- as they are nearly all derived from religion or superstition.
This is atheism as ignorance, atheism as a form of self-righteous philistinism. Our ancestors for thousands of years viewed absolutely everything through the filter of religion - I have no question about that. Does that mean that we should do without any human cultural heritage except studiously atheistic works? No, that would be fucking stupid.

So much of human culture is drenched in religion, saturated with it. The ancient Greek literature, whether we're talking the epics (Iliad and Odyssey) or the great dramas, were explicitly religious. People considered characters in them gods. Same with the epics of every culture - should we never read Gilgamesh or the Ramayana or Journey to the West or the Bible or the Eddas - we could go on all night - because these were religious texts on one level or another? Should an atheist society banish Handel's Messiah or Mozart's Requiem from its concert halls forever since they were religious? Do you smash Michelangelo's David, deface Da Vinci's Last Supper? Do you burn the cathedrals, the pagodas, the mosques, the temples, all the architecture of centuries and millennia to the ground on some damn stupid principle?

Christmas is a largely secularized holiday. Saying it has to be removed for some atheist principle would be demolishing culture - and this is the kind of thing that would make people violently reject a new society.

[apawllo]

Christmas is a largely secularized holiday. Saying it has to be removed for some atheist principle would be demolishing culture - and this is the kind of thing that would make people violently reject a new society.

Yeah, I tend to doubt that there's a remotely practical way one could systematically rid of every remnant of a tradition so broad in scope. Regardless, most atheists would likely be willing to admit that Christmas has many positive aspects. As other users have noted, getting together with family and/or friends and exchanging gifts, celebrating, eating, etc. is nothing at all to be shameful for.

[ComradeMan]

This is atheism as ignorance, atheism as a form of self-righteous philistinism. Our ancestors for thousands of years viewed absolutely everything through the filter of religion - I have no question about that. Does that mean that we should do without any human cultural heritage except studiously atheistic works? No, that would be fucking stupid.

So much of human culture is drenched in religion, saturated with it. The ancient Greek literature, whether we're talking the epics (Iliad and Odyssey) or the great dramas, were explicitly religious. People considered characters in them gods. Same with the epics of every culture - should we never read Gilgamesh or the Ramayana or Journey to the West or the Bible or the Eddas - we could go on all night - because these were religious texts on one level or another? Should an atheist society banish Handel's Messiah or Mozart's Requiem from its concert halls forever since they were religious? Do you smash Michelangelo's David, deface Da Vinci's Last Supper? Do you burn the cathedrals, the pagodas, the mosques, the temples, all the architecture of centuries and millennia to the ground on some damn stupid principle?

Christmas is a largely secularized holiday. Saying it has to be removed for some atheist principle would be demolishing culture - and this is the kind of thing that would make people violently reject a new society.


That was a good answer.

However, on Christmas beling a largely secular holiday... I think that really does depend where you are because in the southern Mediterranean, for example, it isn't.

[ComradeMan]

Yes Comrademan because a Cuban dissident site is much better.

Chapayev you really are an idiot. The fact that the Cuban government officially abolished Christmas and reinstated it on the visit of Pope John Paul II in the late 90s is well-known. It's not propaganda it's not lies. Ask a stamp-collector when the last Cuban Christmas stamps came out if you want... stop being deliberately obtuse because you don't want to accept a truth you don't like. Ask anyone- write to the Cuban Embassy if you want... or shut up.

[Crimson Commissar]

No, in a truly atheist society there would be no Sunday/Shabbat/etc, no holidays and no festivals- as they are nearly all derived from religion or superstition.
Ugh. Of course there'd be holidays. They just wouldn't be religious. Why do you assume that all atheists are evil bastards who want to destroy christmas or some shit. We just want it to be secular. In some parts of the world it is, but in many, it isn't. Do you honestly think that in a leftist society it should still be acceptable for christmas to be a christian holiday?

[Pravda Soyuz]

I do not think Christmas would be completely abolished. It has deviated from religion lately anways (Santa,reindeer,snowmen). It is good to have a winter holiday of some kind, and I would support the secular side of Christmas!

[Rafiq]

Chapayev you really are an idiot. The fact that the Cuban government officially abolished Christmas and reinstated it on the visit of Pope John Paul II in the late 90s is well-known. It's not propaganda it's not lies. Ask a stamp-collector when the last Cuban Christmas stamps came out if you want... stop being deliberately obtuse because you don't want to accept a truth you don't like. Ask anyone- write to the Cuban Embassy if you want... or shut up.

they most likely just didn't make it a state official holiday before the 90's.

That's different from abolishing it.

it is you who is the idiot for believing bourgeois lies.

[Raúl Duke]

The answer is no...

X-mas is like...a Western cultural thing now.

I mean c'mon, whats with Santa, the tree, and all that? None of that relates to Christianity.
It may relate to paganism, but do you see a revival in paganism due to christmas? Nope.

[Rafiq]

Many primitive aspects of humanity such as religion will whither away through human advancement.... Christmas may still exist, but very differently.

You have this Idea that communism will have some big bad party that bans things.

The only power will be the workers councils. And under Communism, no beliefs are banned nor practicing any.

That doesn't mean we are going to start working and building your stupid trees and shit.

You want christmas, go celebrate it alone :laugh:

You are an Idiot for making this thread and actually asking that, who the fuck would abolish it? Big brother and the glorious party? :laugh:

[ComradeMan]

Many primitive aspects of humanity such as religion will whither away through human advancement.... Christmas may still exist, but very differently.
You have this Idea that communism will have some big bad party that bans things.
The only power will be the workers councils. And under Communism, no beliefs are banned nor practicing any.
That doesn't mean we are going to start working and building your stupid trees and shit.
You want christmas, go celebrate it alone :laugh:
You are an Idiot for making this thread and actually asking that, who the fuck would abolish it? Big brother and the glorious party? :laugh:

Is this the same person who posted a thread that got many posts saying ...

"Stop Scaring Muslims away from the Left", and argued a liberal interpretation of the Qu'ran and sought to convince people (rightly) that all Muslims are not fanatic Taliban fundamentalists etc etc?

Well this same person says nothing now? Equally so all Christians are not represented by the Westboro Church, nor are all Jews fanatical Zionists exclusivist. Moreover the most "Christian" person I ever met was a Hindu!!!

This same person now feels free to talk of primitive aspects of humanity? But not Islam... if anyone said Islam were primitive they would be branded an Islamophobe.

This is of course the same person who actively seeks to deny that under certain "communist" regimes religious celebrations were abolished and frowned upon and despite mocking the evidence can provide none to the contrary.

Strikes me as cultural chauvanism, ignorance and downright stupidity rolled in one.

The other think you fail to remember that if I choose to celebrate Christmas then I do so with at least 1 billion people, the same if I say Eid Mubarak, it is to approximately 1 billion people and Happy Hanukah will be at least with 14 million whilst a Happy Diwali would be probably around 800,000,000- so who's the minority really?

Where did I say that "communism" will be one "big, bad, party"- I am of the opinion that we have never seen "communism" in its true form to start with, just aberrations, and I am also of the opinion that the common and unifying credo, despite what religionists say, behind all religions/belief systems/spiritualities, is fundamentally in harmony with socialism and not against it.

As Dr House would say.... You are an i______ :lol:

[FreeFocus]

I don't celebrate Christmas and I'm to the point where I barely acknowledge it. Fuck Christmas, under capitalism it's a grossly materialistic holiday. And when people celebrate it for religious reasons, it's brings to the fore the illogical and mythical nature of Christianity, and religions generally.

I don't know that I'm a "hardcore atheist" (I want people to drop religion by seeing it doesn't make sense), but I wouldn't be going out to abolish Christmas. It is good fun for children especially, and attempts to abolish it by some kind of vanguard will alienate and piss people off.

[Rafiq]

Is this the same person who posted a thread that got many posts saying ...

"Stop Scaring Muslims away from the Left", and argued a liberal interpretation of the Qu'ran and sought to convince people (rightly) that all Muslims are not fanatic Taliban fundamentalists etc etc?

Well this same person says nothing now? Equally so all Christians are not represented by the Westboro Church, nor are all Jews fanatical Zionists exclusivist. Moreover the most "Christian" person I ever met was a Hindu!!!

This same person now feels free to talk of primitive aspects of humanity? But not Islam... if anyone said Islam were primitive they would be branded an Islamophobe.

This is of course the same person who actively seeks to deny that under certain "communist" regimes religious celebrations were abolished and frowned upon and despite mocking the evidence can provide none to the contrary.

Strikes me as cultural chauvanism, ignorance and downright stupidity rolled in one.

The other think you fail to remember that if I choose to celebrate Christmas then I do so with at least 1 billion people, the same if I say Eid Mubarak, it is to approximately 1 billion people and Happy Hanukah will be at least with 14 million whilst a Happy Diwali would be probably around 800,000,000- so who's the minority really?

Where did I say that "communism" will be one "big, bad, party"- I am of the opinion that we have never seen "communism" in its true form to start with, just aberrations, and I am also of the opinion that the common and unifying credo, despite what religionists say, behind all religions/belief systems/spiritualities, is fundamentally in harmony with socialism and not against it.

As Dr House would say.... You are an i______ :lol:



I am saying all religion is primitive, including Islam.

We aren't talking about ramadan right now, are we? We are talking about Christmas.


If you want, you can go ahead and start a thread saying "Will hardcore atheists and big brother ban Ramadan under Communism?"

And just get laughed at even more.

1. Did I say all Muslims were Taliban?

2. Did I say all Christians follow the west boro church?

3. Did I say all Jews were fanatic Zionists?

With the advancement of Humanity will come the downfall of all religion, including Islam, Christianity, whatever.


Some of the first humans thought that the moon was God. Some worshiped the sun.


The more science that we embrace, the more and more religion looks foolish.

So under Communism, when most of the people have let go of their primitive aspects, you can feel free to dance around the fire worshiping whatever you like.

Point is, we aren't going to spend labor for religious festivals, nor will we make it some "Official public holiday" if it isn't secular.

You can go celebrate whatever the fuck you want alone, but you will not be able to force it on everyone else just because you want to.

Next time don't make these kind of stupid threads. Who do you think will abolish Christmas? Which specific entity do you think will abolish winter festivals?

Tell me, if everything is run democratically, which almost everyone on this forum agrees with, who will abolish it?

You probably don't even have an opinion of some sort of your own. I am beggining to think that your opinion is only what the majority of the mainstream society believes.

If BBC tells you anything, you'd believe it just because it's BBC.

The fact that you would think that we would spend our time abolishing christmas, for no apparent reason other than "All religion is nonsense" then you need to do some serious reading.

Maybe if Comrademan had his way, we'd live in some kind of Neo-Theocracy in which everyone must celebrate his winter festivals, and spend labor building christmas trees, and putting up decorations ect.

I under stand your vicious anti secularism, but you aren't going to have your way in this :laugh:

[ComradeMan]

I am saying all religion is primitive, including Islam.

I see you've changed your stance very quickly then.

Political chameleon?


We aren't talking about ramadan right now, are we? We are talking about Christmas.

I did mention other festivals too....


If you want, you can go ahead and start a thread saying "Will hardcore atheists and big brother ban Ramadan under Communism?"

But I didn't I starte this one....


And just get laughed at even more.

Laughed at by who? By someone who thinks the USSR was an economic success and knows shit about Cuba.... yeah, the mockery of the ignorant is more of a compliment.


1. Did I say all Muslims were Taliban?

No, but you attacked those who were anti-Islam as fascists and defended it as being more progressive than other religions.

Short memory you've got.


2. Did I say all Christians follow the west boro church?

3. Did I say all Jews were fanatic Zionists?

I didn't say you did but the stereotypes from the likes of Dawkins more or less seem to indicate that.


With the advancement of Humanity will come the downfall of all religion, including Islam, Christianity, whatever.

Advancement gives us technology but are we any more enlightened? LOL!!! You have a really shallow understanding of advancement.


Some of the first humans thought that the moon was God. Some worshiped the sun.

And your point? This thread was about celebrating religious festivals.

What is a god?


The more science that we embrace, the more and more religion looks foolish.

Which religion? Why? Define foolish?


So under Communism, when most of the people have let go of their primitive aspects, you can feel free to dance around the fire worshiping whatever you like.

Source? How will this happen? Who's talking about fire-worshipping?


Point is, we aren't going to spend labor for religious festivals, nor will we make it some "Official public holiday" if it isn't secular.

That'll gain popularity with the masses won't it. I love how that's going to work in the Islamic world.... I suppose you'll be giving up your weekends too...

What an idiot.


You can go celebrate whatever the fuck you want alone, but you will not be able to force it on everyone else just because you want to.

But I am not alone.... I am not forcing it on anyone.


Next time don't make these kind of stupid threads. Who do you think will abolish Christmas? Which specific entity do you think will abolish winter festivals?

Yes, sir... oops sorry...... fuck you! Who made you the censor?


Tell me, if everything is run democratically, which almost everyone on this forum agrees with, who will abolish it?

Because this forum is so revolutionary....:lol:


You probably don't even have an opinion of some sort of your own. I am beggining to think that your opinion is only what the majority of the mainstream society believes.

You didn't bother to ask or read.



If BBC tells you anything, you'd believe it just because it's BBC.

No- but were the facts wrong? No they weren't... but you've conveniently skipped over that because once again you were proven wrong.


The fact that you would think that we would spend our time abolishing christmas, for no apparent reason other than "All religion is nonsense" then you need to do some serious reading.

Strawman- and where is this "we" and "you" thing coming from BTW?

You need to learn to read...


Maybe if Comrademan had his way, we'd live in some kind of Neo-Theocracy in which everyone must celebrate his winter festivals, and spend labor building christmas trees, and putting up decorations ect.

Strawman. Never said that.

Strawman.


I under stand your vicious anti secularism, but you aren't going to have your way in this :laugh:

What vicious anti-secularism? Secularism is not the same as atheism. This is in response to the as-of-late unceasing attack on "theism" in general.

[La Comédie Noire]

Festivus for the rest of us.

[Ninel]

I am not accusing people of stealing Christmas, I'm saying that hardcore atheists who celebrate Christmas in whatever form are being hypocritical.
Well Christmas is fucking forced upon everyone through ways of media, I wish it would just fuck off, some atheists probably can't even help worshipping it as their family do it by tradition and so do all the people around them so it is forced onto them to celebrate it. I fucking hate Christmas, if you're gonna have a religious festival just be religious about it and that's it.

[ZeroNowhere]

I'm a hardcore theological noncognitivist. I suppose that this means that we should convert Christmas into a festival where people go around reading Lewis Carroll poems...?

[Raúl Duke]

This is in response to the as-of-late unceasing attack on "theism" in general.

BAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWW

What did you expect from a forum filled with a bunch of godless reds?

:rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

I see you've changed your stance very quickly then.


Laughed at by who? By someone who thinks the USSR was an economic success and knows shit about Cuba.... yeah, the mockery of the ignorant is more of a compliment.



No, but you attacked those who were anti-Islam as fascists and defended it as being more progressive than other religions.




You are a troll. I said the USSR was better off than the Russian Federation.

And fucking post where I said Islam is more progressive than other religions. You fucking moron, you are a manipulative piece of shit and you know it too.

You know for a fact I never said any of those things.

You're actually a fucking idiot too, and I can see why you were restricted, you theocratic fuck.

[Rafiq]

[QUOTE=ComradeMan;1966799
That'll gain popularity with the masses won't it. I love how that's going to work in the Islamic world.... I suppose you'll be giving up your weekends too...



Because this forum is so revolutionary....:lol:




No- but were the facts wrong? No they weren't... but you've conveniently skipped over that because once again you were proven wrong.





What vicious anti-secularism? Secularism is not the same as atheism. This is in response to the as-of-late unceasing attack on "theism" in general.[/QUOTE]


Okay, I am going to number these four genius posts.

1. So, you don't think that eventually people are going to let go of Religion through scientific advancement? What an idiot.

2. then get the fuck out of this forum. Why are you here then? To troll?

3. You know the facts were right? Really? Have you been there? Did you talk to any cuban officials?

4. So you're an anti Atheist? Do you think that they should be forced to believe in God? If so, how will you make them?

[ComradeMan]

You are a troll. I said the USSR was better off than the Russian Federation.

And fucking post where I said Islam is more progressive than other religions. You fucking moron, you are a manipulative piece of shit and you know it too.

You know for a fact I never said any of those things.

You're actually a fucking idiot too, and I can see why you were restricted, you theocratic fuck.

Boohoo..... in fact you said all of those things and that's why you are getting so aggressive and defensive now. You have no arguments whatsoever, you know fuck all, you contradict yourself left, right and centre and you resort to ad hominems.

Have a tissue.... sniff.....

:lol:

[Rafiq]

Troll ^^^

[Rafiq]

Boohoo..... in fact you said all of those things and that's why you are getting so aggressive and defensive now. You have no arguments whatsoever, you know fuck all, you contradict yourself left, right and centre and you resort to ad hominems.

Have a tissue.... sniff.....

:lol:

What am I debating? whether I said something or not? What is there to debate?

[ComradeMan]

Okay, I am going to number these four genius posts.

1. So, you don't think that eventually people are going to let go of Religion through scientific advancement? What an idiot.

Well a lot of top scientists are religious. What an idiot.


2. then get the fuck out of this forum. Why are you here then? To troll?

Stop scaring spiritual/religious people away from the Left.... LOL!!! What a hypocrite.


3. You know the facts were right? Really? Have you been there? Did you talk to any cuban officials?

Okay, let's place a bet. I challenge you to contradict the fact that Christmas was officially abolished in Cuba and then reinstated in the late 90s- if I am wrong I will ban myself and if you are wrong you will ban yourself? Bet on?

You see you go around challenging people all over the place and calling them idiots but you actually know fuck all about most of the subjects that you talk about. Like the economic miracle of the USSR... LOL!!!


4. So you're an anti Atheist? Do you think that they should be forced to believe in God? If so, how will you make them?

Where have I ever said people should be forced into believing something (or not-believing something if you like) against their will?
Please show me?



You are a troll. I said the USSR was better off than the Russian Federation.

Well better is very subjective but you weren't really talking about that, you were denying that the USSR was an economic failure in the late 80s, that's of course against economic date, accepted history and scholarship and all the rest.... LOL!!!

[Crimson Commissar]

Well a lot of top scientists are religious. What an idiot.
Well then they're probably fucking idiots if they're supposedly that smart and yet still can't realise religion is a complete lie.


Stop scaring spiritual/religious people away from the Left.... LOL!!! What a hypocrite.

Get over it already, why are you harassing him just because he decided to stop being religious? Would you do the same thing if a militant atheist decided to become a christian or some shit? Probably not.


Where have I ever said people should be forced into believing something (or not-believing something if you like) against their will?
Please show me?
Well you're basically saying that atheists have no right to celebrate christmas, that seems pretty fucking forceful to me.


Well better is very subjective but you weren't really talking about that, you were denying that the USSR was an economic failure in the late 80s, that's of course against economic date, accepted history and scholarship and all the rest.... LOL!!!
Did you forget that the late 80s was when Gorbachev, the man who was delibrately trying to destroy the USSR, was in power? Of course socialism isn't going to fucking work right when there's an anti-socialist in power.

[Rafiq]

Stop scaring spiritual/religious people away from the Left.... LOL!!! What a hypocrite.



Okay, let's place a bet. I challenge you to contradict the fact that Christmas was officially abolished in Cuba and then reinstated in the late 90s- if I am wrong I will ban myself and if you are wrong you will ban yourself? Bet on?

You see you go around challenging people all over the place and calling them idiots but you actually know fuck all about most of the subjects that you talk about. Like the economic miracle of the USSR... LOL!!!



Where have I ever said people should be forced into believing something (or not-believing something if you like) against their will?
Please show me?




Well better is very subjective but you weren't really talking about that, you were denying that the USSR was an economic failure in the late 80s, that's of course against economic date, accepted history and scholarship and all the rest.... LOL!!!

Again, I am going to number these.

1. The difference between me and you is that I have an open mind and am willing to change any of my views if I am logically convinced.

You on the other hand, are bound by a single belief and have a closed mind. At least I could admit I was wrong, something you probably would fail to do.

2. Okay, my uncle has been to Cuba several times, so I'll call and ask him in about twenty minutes.... Okay?

3. Show me where I said the USSR was an economic miracle.

Fail.

4. If the USSR was an economic failure in the late 80's, the Russian federation is a bigger economic failure today.

Statistics show that throughout all the history of the USSR, it was still better than the Russian Federation today.

Get that through your fucking thick piece of shit skull, and think logically for once. Statistics show the USSR was economically more successful than the Russian Federation today.

Okay? Fucking idiot.

Who the FUCK is in charge of accepted history?

Like I said, Comrademan does not have his own view on things, and does not question the mainstream Media and University analysis of things. For example, if he lived in a place like North Korea, he would actually believe it is the greatest place on Earth because his regime told him so.

He is an Idiot, and so is this fallacy of "Accepted History".

Here is the difference, I embrace Real History, while Comrademan only embraces the fantasy history accepted by the general public.

[ComradeMan]

Again, I am going to number these.
1. The difference between me and you is that I have an open mind and am willing to change any of my views if I am logically convinced.

With what logic here pray tell?



You on the other hand, are bound by a single belief and have a closed mind. At least I could admit I was wrong, something you probably would fail to do.

What is my belief? Did you ask?


2. Okay, my uncle has been to Cuba several times, so I'll call and ask him in about twenty minutes.... Okay?

Can't wait...


3. Show me where I said the USSR was an economic miracle. Fail.
4. If the USSR was an economic failure in the late 80's, the Russian federation is a bigger economic failure today.

LOL!!! The point was made about its collapsing which you attacked and denied... shifting the goals now are we? But I'm glad to see in 4 you contradict yourself.



Statistics show that throughout all the history of the USSR, it was still better than the Russian Federation today. Get that through your fucking thick piece of shit skull, and think logically for once. Statistics show the USSR was economically more successful than the Russian Federation today. Okay? Fucking idiot. Who the FUCK is in charge of accepted history? .

I wonder how many times you can write "fuck" in one post.

What statistics? You never posted any though.

Bud showed you economic evidence that it wasn't. We have a Russian here, Popov, who basically showed it wasn't- he lived through it too. Whether the Russian Federation is worse does not change the failure of the USSR- see Chomsky too.


Like I said, Comrademan does not have his own view on things, and does not question the mainstream Media and University analysis of things. For example, if he lived in a place like North Korea, he would actually believe it is the greatest place on Earth because his regime told him so. He is an Idiot, and so is this fallacy of "Accepted History". Here is the difference, I embrace Real History, while Comrademan only embraces the fantasy history accepted by the general public.

You must be running out of straw. BTW- can't you do better than the fallacies of attacking the source and circumstancial ad homimens?

Shariati... ooops, Chapayev is a political chameleon who postures in order to gain rep... that's what I see, seeing as you feel free to pass judgement on others then fair enough so shall you be judged. The only reason you dropped the Islamic thing is because you didn't have enough support here for it.

I'll leave you with some of your quotes.... from quite recently


I'm a Muslim and a Communist. I disagree with Marx on belief in God and having a Religion, but I agree with him that The Religion cannot have authority.


Just because you don't have a religion, doesn't mean I can't and still be a Marxist.


You're a Christian, you can't say shit. the Christian religion has a FAR worse history then any other Religion on Earth.
So don't be criticizing Islam without Criticizing your own religion even more, because it is much more violent, Racist and much more worthy of Criticism.
Just from the Bible. Read it. (Even though it's been changed 2,000 times in favor of Kings and Land owners).

Ooops.... :blushing:

[Crimson Commissar]

I'll leave you with some of your quotes.... from quite recently
He changed his opinion, so fucking what? I doubt many people on Revleft were communists from the very day they were born.

[ComradeMan]

He changed his opinion, so fucking what? I doubt many people on Revleft were communists from the very day they were born.

Yeah... in politics opinion changes in the space of a month are really convincing, the other point is that he flatly denied ever having said these things.

I don't care either way but if I am to be judged, tacitly accused of being a liar and attacked then I am entitled to answer back.

I am still waiting for him to come back on the Christmas in Cuba issue with relation to the OP.

Sorry, but if people are going to go on the warpath and start flaming and abusing people becoming offensive and not bothering to engage in discussion of points- the best they can do is attack the source, it doesn't make much of a discussion. This person in particular seems to be rather apt at squeeling "troll" and then verbally abusing people when challenged and quite frankly as a leftist he is a joke.

What's so revolutionary about spouting the ill-formed rantings of some seriously rightwing atheists against the rantings of ill-informed religionists in an attempt to appear avant-garde?

Quite sad really.... I need some more tissues.... sniff.

[Rafiq]

[/FONT]



[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Ooops.... :blushing:




okay, let me number these again.

1. The USSR didn't magically collapse, it was dismantled by an Anti Socialist named Gorbachev.

2. Ooh Bud Struggle said so! That must mean it's true!

here are some little facts for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVjYO9FKL7o

Were these children like that under Soviet Russia? I think not.

Maybe Moscow today has more billionaires than before, but at the expense of the Russian working class.

Ask any Russian if the Soviet Union was worse than today.

Bud just showed that Putin was better than Yeltsin, yet failed to show that the Soviet Union was better than both .

3. DEATH TO THOSE WHO CHANGE THEIR NAME!

Seriously, do you find humor at me changing my username? What is so significant about that?

Fuck you, I dropped Islam because my older Cousin, who happened to drop it a couple months ago, managed to convince me to do it. Fuck off, GTFO, first this started as a Christmas thread, but every fucking thread you manage to bring up the fact that I became an apostate of Islam. get a fucking life, you piece of horse shit.

I only do things to gain rep? Am I that interested in getting rep? Really? Get a life, theocratic shit.

Point out all the fucking quotes you want, am I not allowed to leave Islam because I said things in favor of it a while ago? How do you expect anyone to leave religion if you don't allow them to because they have a history of being ,in favor of it? OOPS you don't, because your a theistic dogmatist piece of shit.

How about you fuck off, and get a life.

You have no right to judge me because I changed my mind about being a Muslim, that's ALL you have against me is me becoming non religious.

Take your religion and shove it up your ass, leave everyone alone.

[ComradeMan]

okay, let me number these again. The USSR didn't magically collapse, it was dismantled by an Anti Socialist named Gorbachev. .

Because it was failing economically... but you originally stated that it didn't collapse at all, you were wrong and you tried to slip out of it by lying and shifting goals... you were wrong and instead of being adult enough to admit that, hell anyone can make a mistake, you lie and go on the attack and become quite verbally abusive.

Fail.


Fuck you, I dropped Islam because my older Cousin, who happened to drop it a couple months ago, managed to convince me to do it. Fuck off, GTFO, first this started as a Christmas thread, but every fucking thread you manage to bring up the fact that I became an apostate of Islam. get a fucking life, you piece of horse shit. .

:lol::laugh::lol:

Less than two months ago you posted this...


It's not that ridiculous for someone to believe in God. Now, I am not talking being Religious, just believing a greater being.

You don't have to be a believer or a Muslim to say this or hold this view so your dropping Islam has nothing to do with it.



I only do things to gain rep? Am I that interested in getting rep? Really? Get a life, theocratic shit.

LOL!!! Well you certainly don't add much to theoretical discussion....

Also learn the difference between theist and theocrat- they're not the same and this is a political forum so making such basic elementary school errors is quite bad.... :tt2:



It's about Respect....
if you want more support...
Stop scaring people away.

You don't need to be a Muslim to sy that...


Point out all the fucking quotes you want, am I not allowed to leave Islam because I said things in favor of it a while ago? How do you expect anyone to leave religion if you don't allow them to because they have a history of being ,in favor of it? OOPS you don't, because your a theistic dogmatist piece of shit. .

You don't actually need to be a Muslim to hold a tollerant and respectful view. I don't care what religion you are or you aren't, or what your cousin told you to do either :lol:... this is not about Islam, shit for brains.

All you have are abusive insults.

You attack people for what they say but they cannot quote you? Recently too? Ooops... I'm sorry but that just doesn't work I'm afraid. I'm surprised you haven't called me a Zionist yet... LOL!!!




How about you fuck off, and get a life. You have no right to judge me because I changed my mind about being a Muslim, that's ALL you have against me is me becoming non religious. Take your religion and shove it up your ass, leave everyone alone.

I'm not judging you because of you are but of the bullshit you come out with in an attempt to be down with the left when in actual fact you come over as shallow, ignorant and two-faced.

Now, no one forced you to come to this debate but you come rolling in with your guns blazing and then start crying when you are engaged in battle.


Stop judging me... boohooo.... boohooo.... poor little dumb baby. :lol: But of course you feel free to judge other people as primitive and superstitious... yeah... right.

By the way, have you made that phone call yet? I'm waiting for you to voluntarily ban yourself which was of course part of the bet- and as we know, if you don't honour a bet that makes you .... what? :lol:

[Decolonize The Left]

Alright, everyone sit down and have a Dr. Pepper.

Now, I have issued an infraction to ComradeMan for trolling in this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1966888&postcount=92) post as well as the general trolling in this thread.

I am also issuing a verbal warning to Chapayev for trolling in this thread.

I do not care who started it. I do not care if you think it's unjustified. There is a thread for Unfair Infractions in the Member's Forum if you feel the need, and you can appeal a verbal warning there as well or PM any mod/admin.

Please do not continue to blatantly troll one another as more infractions will certainly follow.

- August

[ComradeMan]

Alright, everyone sit down and have a Dr. Pepper.

Now, I have issued an infraction to ComradeMan for trolling in this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1966888&postcount=92) post as well as the general trolling in this thread.

I am also issuing a verbal warning to Chapayev for trolling in this thread.

I do not care who started it. I do not care if you think it's unjustified. There is a thread for Unfair Infractions in the Member's Forum if you feel the need, and you can appeal a verbal warning there as well or PM any mod/admin.

Please do not continue to blatantly troll one another as more infractions will certainly follow.

- August

I do not care who started it. I do not care if you think it's unjustified.
:lol:

OI-ers can't post in that thread... yet more RevLeft justice.

So the more abusive person gets a warning and the person defending an infraction.... LOL!!! What a joke this place has become.

Anyway, back to Christmas....


Can Christmas and festivals that ultimately have a religious origin be compatible with hard "atheism"?

[Crimson Commissar]

Can Christmas and festivals that ultimately have a religious origin be compatible with hard "atheism"?
Of course. You can't expect every atheist to give up what is usually a very fun and secular holiday just because it used to be christian.

[Decolonize The Left]

I do not care who started it. I do not care if you think it's unjustified.
:lol:

OI-ers can't post in that thread... yet more RevLeft justice.

So the more abusive person gets a warning and the person defending an infraction.... LOL!!! What a joke this place has become.

Please stop this nonsense.

As I explained in my PM to you, you received an infraction for two clear reasons:
1) This thread's OP is troll-bait and your post was both flaming and trolling.
2) You have a long history of trolling and infractions.

Chapayev received a verbal warning because these two conditions are not present in regards to them.

- August

[ComradeMan]

^^^^^^^^ Like when I received an infraction for someone else's quote? LOL!!!

Why is the thread's OP troll bait? Please explain... it's a valid question in the light of the controversy about Christmas and the stances taken by the likes of Dawkins and those who uphold similar views.

Anyway,

Crimson Comissar-- your post is at least honest and human.:lol:

[Decolonize The Left]

^^^^^^^^ Like when I received an infraction for someone else's quote? LOL!!!

Why is the thread's OP troll bait? Please explain... it's a valid question in the light of the controversy about Christmas and the stances taken by the likes of Dawkins and those who uphold similar views.

Here's why:

How can a hardcore atheist celebrate Christmas given its "superstitious" origins, be they pagan or Christian?

Because christmas isn't a definitively religious holiday anymore, it's largely secular.


This leads me to the question...

Do or would the hardcore atheists here seek to abolish such festivals, for example and primarly, given the season, Christmas?

No, because we're not authoritarians.

Both these points have been made countless times in this thread yet you continue with your nonsense. Should I close the thread now that you've got your answers?

- August

[ComradeMan]

Here's why:


Because christmas isn't a definitively religious holiday anymore, it's largely secular.
- August

Really? One billion or more Catholics and countless other might disagree and if you came to Italy, for example, you would see how unsecular it is. Stop imposing an anglo-american worldview on the rest of us. Chavez is a Catholic along with most of South America I'd dare to say... the same people who have made the unofficial Santo Che de la Higuera....

[Rafiq]

Because it was failing economically... but you originally stated that it didn't collapse at all, you were wrong and you tried to slip out of it by lying and shifting goals... you were wrong and instead of being adult enough to admit that, hell anyone can make a mistake, you lie and go on the attack and become quite verbally abusive.

Fail.



:lol::laugh::lol:

Less than two months ago you posted this...



You don't have to be a believer or a Muslim to say this or hold this view so your dropping Islam has nothing to do with it.


[COLOR=black][FONT=Book Antiqua]

LOL!!! Well you certainly don't add much to theoretical discussion....

Also learn the difference between theist and theocrat- they're not the same and this is a political forum so making such basic elementary school errors is quite bad.... :tt2:
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=1]You don't need to be a Muslim to sy that...

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

You don't actually need to be a Muslim to hold a tollerant and respectful view. I don't care what religion you are or you aren't, or what your cousin told you to do either :lol:... this is not about Islam, shit for brains.

All you have are abusive insults.

You attack people for what they say but they cannot quote you? Recently too? Ooops... I'm sorry but that just doesn't work I'm afraid. I'm surprised you haven't called me a Zionist yet... LOL!!!



[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

I'm not judging you because of you are but of the bullshit you come out with in an attempt to be down with the left when in actual fact you come over as shallow, ignorant and two-faced.

Now, no one forced you to come to this debate but you come rolling in with your guns blazing and then start crying when you are engaged in battle.


Stop judging me... boohooo.... boohooo.... poor little dumb baby. :lol: But of course you feel free to judge other people as primitive and superstitious... yeah... right.

By the way, have you made that phone call yet? I'm waiting for you to voluntarily ban yourself which was of course part of the bet- and as we know, if you don't honour a bet that makes you .... what? :lol:


I'll number this.


1. The Russian Federation is doing worse. The USSR didn't collapse because of it's economy.

2. So? He convinced me after he left Islam. He left Islam a couple months ago. That doesn't mean right when he left Islam I did too :laugh:

3. I'm not saying it's completely ridiculous.... I am saying religion will whither away over time....

4. I know the difference between those. You are advocating to intertwine the society with religion, or some kind of religious authority if you are saying Atheists can't believe in Christmas. It's one thing to be Theistic, another thing to be Theocratic.

5. Well, I suppose in order for people to leave religion you have to be kind to them when you first talk to them.... Okay?

6. I have changed my views for what you call "recently". It's not like I do these things often. If an Atheist wanted to believe in God, would you point out his Anti-Theist quotes that he made before doing so?

7. I will call him right now actually.

[Rafiq]

Really? One billion or more Catholics and countless other might disagree and if you came to Italy, for example, you would see how unsecular it is. Stop imposing an anglo-american worldview on the rest of us. Chavez is a Catholic along with most of South America I'd dare to say... the same people who have made the unofficial Santo Che de la Higuera....

You are the one having a Catholic world-view.

As Devrim pointed out, Christmas is largely Secular in Europe, and America, along with places in Africa, even places in South America, and in some parts of the middle east (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and maybe Israel {don't have enough info on that}).

[ComradeMan]

I'll number this.
1. The Russian Federation is doing worse. The USSR didn't collapse because of it's economy.

Well you were proven wrong by just about everything on that one so let's not derail the thread, if you want to open one about the USSR's economic failures be my guest....


3. I'm not saying it's completely ridiculous.... I am saying religion will wither

Source? Where is the evidence to prove this? 30 years of official state atheism in Cuba and 70 odd years in the USSR didn't really do this did they? Your assertion doesn't seem to be supported by any historical evidence.


2. So? He convinced me after he left Islam. He left Islam a couple months ago. That doesn't mean right when he left Islam I did too :laugh:

Your personal belief is nothing to do with your moral judgement on the matter.... derp.



I know the difference between those. You are advocating to intertwine the society with religion, or some kind of religious authority if you are saying Atheists can't believe in Christmas. It's one thing to be Theistic, another thing to be Theocratic.

Where do I advocate mixing religion with the state? Something I have never advocated.

I wasn't aware you believe in Christmas. What I was pointing out that when hardcore/militant atheists attack religion in all its forms as inherently evil etc etc etc then proceed to celebrate festivals with religious origins because it's a holiday and an excuse for a party seems a bit hypocritical.


I will call him right now actually.

Can't wait.

[Rafiq]

Well you were proven wrong by just about everything on that one so let's not derail the thread, if you want to open one about the USSR's economic failures be my guest....



Source? Where is the evidence to prove this? 30 years of official state atheism in Cuba and 70 odd years in the USSR didn't really do this did they? Your assertion doesn't seem to be supported by any historical evidence.



Your personal belief is nothing to do with your moral judgement on the matter.... derp.




Where do I advocate mixing religion with the state? Something I have never advocated.

I wasn't aware you believe in Christmas. What I was pointing out that when hardcore/militant atheists attack religion in all its forms as inherently evil etc etc etc then proceed to celebrate festivals with religious origins because it's a holiday and an excuse for a party seems a bit hypocritical.



Can't wait.


Once again, I'll number this.

1. Think what you want, but know that's not actually what happened.

2. State Atheism? When a government starts not to fund churches and refuses to let religious figures on state television, and crack down on Religious aristocrats, that isn't forcing anyone to become An atheist.

And today in Russia is about over 40% Non Religious.

Like I said, people used to believe the Moon was a good, but when we actually proved it wasn't people stopped worshiping it. That's historical evidence. Religion doesn't wither away by forcing people to abandon it.

3. Religion was ultimitally created either in curiosity or used for oppression.

4. Judging by your comments on this thread you appear Anti secular.

5. *Believe in celebrating it* So-rry for that mistake.

And if Atheists view Religion as ludicrous, they can still celebrate mainstream secular holiday's, no matter the religious origin. That would be like calling you a hypocrite for typing on an Atheist made computer.

We aren't authoritarian so it was a stupid question from start.


Now finally, for my uncle's reply:

My uncle has been going to Cuba since 2000.

He said that people have always been able to do whatever they want in private, such as christmas trees ect. But if they start puting them in public they will get in trouble.

He also noted that the Cuban government in the 90's started to let people put religious things in public, and started letting priests talk on public TV.

He said the State recognized Christmas as a significant holiday.

But he noted that people have always been allowed to do what they want in their homes, or even some buildings ect.

He had a friend in Cuba who happened to be an Old man, who has been putting Christmas trees in his house every year since the 1970's.

If you want I could try to have my uncle talk to you via webchat, if you don't believe me, but I can only try.

So, ban yourself.

Christmas was never banned, it just was something never public. You couldn't put big crosses in the middle of Havana. Big deal.

Now ban yourself.

[Raúl Duke]

You are the one having a Catholic world-view.

As Devrim pointed out, Christmas is largely Secular in Europe, and America, along with places in Africa, even places in South America, and in some parts of the middle east (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and maybe Israel {don't have enough info on that}). Assuming that Christmas is a totally religious holiday, what was said in this thread goes along the lines of that christmas will be turned into, a trend that is already happening now in many parts of the world, a secular holiday if we were to live in a secular/communist/whatever society.

That has already for the most part has happened, if you look at Scandinavia they're mostly non-religious but still celebrate christmas.

In other words, no there will be no abolishment of religion. Stop being such a stupid belland, you and Berlusconi make Italy look stupid

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

To the op, I can't see why anyone would want to abolish a holiday. There need to be more holidays, not less. Shit, I wouldn't mind a day off for Ramadan, Yom Kippur, and a day off in remembrance of each of Americas wars.

Because, quite frankly, I don't care why I get the day off. Many workers who do have to work would get double pay for each of those days. The reason really isn't that important to me.

As far as Dec 25, if you don't want to call it Xmas just call it whatever. As far as I'm concerned the whole christianity part of christman is just so much bullshit. Quite honestly I feel I see the day, or at least one day around the solstice, in the much the same way as many ancient cultures did. Basically, winter fuckin blows and i need a day off to get drunk and see people.


Oh, and on the subject, Voting day should be made a federal holiday. I really think that would make a difference.

[Ninel]

Because, quite frankly, I don't care why I get the day off. Many workers who do have to work would get double pay for each of those days. The reason really isn't that important to me.
For me it would be important, but only something like the Royal Wedding, if I were given a day off for that I'd still go into work or do work at home.

[ComradeMan]

Assuming that Christmas is a totally religious holiday, what was said in this thread goes along the lines of that christmas will be turned into, a trend that is already happening now in many parts of the world, a secular holiday if we were to live in a secular/communist/whatever society.

That has already for the most part has happened, if you look at Scandinavia they're mostly non-religious but still celebrate christmas.

In other words, no there will be no abolishment of religion. Stop being such a stupid belland, you and Berlusconi make Italy look stupid

So someone from Italy is automatically associated with Berlusconi? Don't you think that's a bit racist? Xenophobic?

I see you are an America so then you must be a KKK supporting, Bible Belt fundamentalist.... Oh well...Your ignorance makes most of the Left and the USA stupid-- fuck you you ignorant KKK supporting tosser.

LOL!!!!!

That's about your level.

PS To the others, I am not Catholic.

[Raúl Duke]

Did I ever called you a conservative, a rightist, or a "popolo della liberta" voter?

No, instead I said that your stupidity makes Italy look bad. The only other thing worst than you in that respect would be Berlusconi

You're above post is nothing but troll bait. Stop being a petty troll.

Finally, I was born in Puerto Rico; I'm not an "American" per se.
Also, stereotypes here are regional specific, that one is based for the south. My North-American ancestors are Northerners from New York, New Hampshire, and Quebec.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Really? One billion or more Catholics and countless other might disagree and if you came to Italy, for example, you would see how unsecular it is. Stop imposing an anglo-american worldview on the rest of us.

LOL. Are these the same Catholics who ignore their religion's proscriptions against birth control and homosexuality as and when it suits them? It's not an "Anglo-American worldview", it's called the 21st century. You may have heard of it.

Face it, the times when the Church could boss around people in a major way are long gone, and that shows through the clergy's constant whining about increasing secularism and godless influence. Unfortunately they're far from dead and gone, but you can see the desperation in what they say; they know the world is turning against them. Long may it continue.

[#FF0000]

Atheists wouldn't ban Christmas, no.

Don't be stupid.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

By the way, Merry Christmas!

[Desperado]

There's no such thing as a "hardcore" atheist. You're either an atheist or you aren't, there's no spectrum. You mean explicit atheists, or antitheists.

[ZeroNowhere]

There's no such thing as a "hardcore" atheist. You're either an atheist or you aren't, there's no spectrum. You mean explicit atheists, or antitheists.I thought that this thread was about Henry Rollins. :confused:

[Dimentio]

For lack of a better sentence, Christmas has been forced into our society and our minds. We are all taught to celebrate it (as well as other festivals) as children through Santa Claus (and Easter through nice little chocolate eggs). All these little things make it something that should be celebrated, because you have bee taught that way. Even if you are an atheist, Christmas is no longer Christian in my view. It is just an excuse for people to eat lots and spend time with their families.

That is why I celebrate Christmas - because the majority of people don't really celebrate Christmas because of Christianity (at least where I live).

As for abolishing Christmas...I don't think that would happen unless the majority of the population wanted it that way.

All cultures on the northern hemisphere have celebrated the winter solstice for ages.

[Le Libérer]

Have you read any of redstar2000's posts on the subject? I wish I had the time to search through and quote some very interesting and convincing arguments to abolish religion as a whole, but basically, religion is anti-revolutionary.
Heres a short quote on the subject from his redstar2000 papers (http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/wyl/socdem/redstar/redstar20.html) which I suggest reading in full,

... in the long process of building a revolutionary movement, there is need to say "fuck off" to people who are necessarily opposed to revolution.

Every believer who's given the matter any thought at all realizes that communist revolution is the end of the line for the religion racket.

If they happen to find themselves within a revolutionary movement at such a moment, it is in their own interests to do all in their power to slow things down and even bring things to a complete halt!

In the struggles within a revolutionary movement -- "we need to go further" vs. "we've gone far enough" vs. "we've gone too far and need to retreat" -- the religious, if they are present, will instinctively ally themselves with the voices of retreat.

Indeed, they'll even do that in reformist "struggles". A secular reformist can seek all the pious supporters he wants...but he's well advised never to allow them any real power in his group. Their influence is always a "pull to the right."
-------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at RevLeft on February 27, 2006
This is just one reason why athiests or even revolutionaries should remove the influence of religion from the struggle for long term results. So I think you can gather just what rs2k would do with Christmas.

[Dimentio]

Have you read any of redstar2000's posts on the subject? I wish I had the time to search through and quote some very interesting and convincing arguments to abolish religion as a whole, but basically, religion is anti-revolutionary.
Heres a short quote on the subject from his redstar2000 papers (http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/wyl/socdem/redstar/redstar20.html) which I suggest reading in full,

This is just one reason why athiests or even revolutionaries should remove the influence of religion from the struggle for long term results. So I think you can gather just what rs2k would do with Christmas.

Sadly, when you remove religion from the equation, it would appear in other forms. Either as personality cults, fervent secular ideologies, new age or conspiracy theories.

And yes, I am celebrating Christmas. Watching Donald every year.

[Dr Mindbender]

Christmas is a fucking stressful affair for anyone without the money. I say why wait to the revolution to abolish it?

[Dimentio]

Roughly before 1650, everything was about religion. Religion was ingrained in the very essence of society, and people did not make distinctions between the natural and supernatural.

[Le Libérer]

Sadly, when you remove religion from the equation, it would appear in other forms. Either as personality cults, fervent secular ideologies, new age or conspiracy theories.

And yes, I am celebrating Christmas. Watching Donald every year.

Yes as we see in North Korea. But I would say, its appearance isnt as strong as the hold the church has on people. As atheists, we are suppose to work under the influence of ethics, not morality. When we achieve that goal, then our world becomes more humane and the church has been anything but humane.

[Luís Henrique]

I am an atheist.

A hardcore atheist.

Merry Christmas.

[AnarchoCommunistEyepatch]

Well there have been a winter festivals in many cultures under many different types of government for millennia so i doubt a revolution would wipe it out, people have non-religious "christmas'" and i don't think gift giving is inherently consumerist. Is a well thought out gift from a loved one worthless simply because they didn't pay for it? It is possible that as part of the revolution people in parts of the world where specifically christmas is celebrated because of western european imperialism may decide in groups or as a culture that they are against the concept and celebrate indigenous festivals or not at all, frankly in any sane system it will be left up to each individual what they do and don't celebrate. For what it's worth i don't think christianity is inherently anything political, simply because the bible can be interpreted to support practically any viewpoint imaginable.

[The Red Next Door]

Yeah, just like how Cuba banned Micheal moores film: sicko
:rolleyes:

They did not.

[L.A.P.]

It seems to me that people who are so adamantly atheist and against religion and "superstition" in all its forms suddenly compromise this when a present, a bottle of spumante and a piece of cake are at stake.... :lol:

That's god damn right! Don't fuck with an atheist's presents and cake.