IRA's conservative friends abroad?

[Crux]

3IAIAWyCDzM
So how widespread is this, seemingly contradictory, support for republicanism among american Republicans?

[FreeFocus]

I think this is pretty common. A lot of Whites in the US are Irish or have Irish ancestry, and Irish-Americans are prominent in both the Democratic and Republican parties. I chuckled when Peter King was decrying "British imperialism" and applauded the IRA's resistance to it, but he doesn't extend the same logic to people resisting American imperialism. That shows that his position isn't based on logic or principle, but either his own exclusivist nationalism or a desire to get votes.

That dude is pathetic.

On a side note, how much did the US' unwillingness to crack down on IRA-supporters affect UK-US relations?

[IndependentCitizen]

On a side note, how much did the US' unwillingness to crack down on IRA-supporters affect UK-US relations?

Hardly affected it at all..

[Crux]

Hey, it's only imperialism if it's against the Homeland.

[Palingenisis]

“I was not very long there until, like water, I found my own level. ‘My people’—the people who knew about oppression, discrimination, prejudice, poverty and the frustration and despair that they produce– were not Irish Americans. They were black, Puerto Ricans, Chicanos. And those who were supposed to be ‘my people’, the Irish Americans who knew about English misrule and the Famine and supported the civil rights movement at home, and knew that Partition and England were the cause of the problem, looked and sounded to me like Orangemen. They said exactly the same things about blacks that the loyalists said about us at home. In New York I was given the key to the city by the mayor, an honor not to be sneezed at. I gave it to the Black Panthers.”

Bernadette Devlin McAliskey

[Palingenisis]

I think this is pretty common. A lot of Whites in the US are Irish or have Irish ancestry, and Irish-Americans are prominent in both the Democratic and Republican parties. I chuckled when Peter King was decrying "British imperialism" and applauded the IRA's resistance to it, but he doesn't extend the same logic to people resisting American imperialism. That shows that his position isn't based on logic or principle, but either his own exclusivist nationalism or a desire to get votes.

That dude is pathetic.

On a side note, how much did the US' unwillingness to crack down on IRA-supporters affect UK-US relations?

As an Irish woman living in Ireland who could be described as Republican I support your nation's national liberation and MASSIVE reparations from the US goverment. All the Irish Republicans I know living in Ireland would say likewise.

[Palingenisis]

The US goverment considers the 32 county sovereignity movement a terrorist organization. The US goverment has IRA volunteers in its prisons from the last northern insurgency....But its clear that the CWI considers them "terrorists".

[Crux]

Why hello there trollbait. For the record, my question does not concern the U.S government as such. Feel free to extend the question to include other right wing groups, outside of the U.S, I know a few of the local fash, bizarrely, were also sympathetic to the Provos. Didn't Fianna Fail also give support to the IRA?

[Palingenisis]

Why hello there trollbait. For the record, my question does not concern the U.S government as such. Feel free to extend the question to include other right wing groups, outside of the U.S, I know a few of the local fash, bizarrely, were also sympathetic to the Provos. Didn't Fianna Fail also give support to the IRA?

http://www.morrigan.net/starryplough/jul2004/jul2004.pdf

Some support....:rolleyes:

[Palingenisis]

Why hello there trollbait. For the record, my question does not concern the U.S government as such. Feel free to extend the question to include other right wing groups, outside of the U.S, I know a few of the local fash, bizarrely, were also sympathetic to the Provos. Didn't Fianna Fail also give support to the IRA?

Interesting you hang around local fash long enough to get their opinions on foreign countries...I cant think of an Irish Republican who would enter into a chat with the scum about Swedish politics.

[Who?]

Although I haven't seen support for the IRA from conservatives many of my Irish friends, who are mostly standard liberals, support the IRA. Which is a bit odd, I actually know a boy who's grandfather was a gun runner for the IRA.

[Crux]

Palingenesis, I have you on ignore for a reason. Wouldn't you rather troll somewhere else? This will be my last post even addressing you, so just fuck off. And just a word of advice to the rest of you reading here, I will not respond to any posts that make Palingensis part of the discussion. If it was up to me she would be banned permanently, but this is a moderator issue best taken in another thread. So enough derail on my behalf.

[Crux]

Although I haven't seen support for the IRA from conservative many of my Irish friends, who are mostly standard liberals, support the IRA. Which is a bit odd, I actually know a boy who's grandfather was a gun runner for the IRA.
I suppose the whole Irish diaspora nationalist sentiment is what plays into it.

[Palingenisis]

The Irish in the USA have a pretty shameful history. This has to be acknowledged but it also has to be understood within the framework of national oppression there which Trots completely ignore just like the Joe Higgins ignores the special courts and internment in Ireland as well as supporting de facto sectarian marches.

[gorillafuck]

The US goverment considers the 32 county sovereignity movement a terrorist organization. The US goverment has IRA volunteers in its prisons from the last northern insurgency....But its clear that the CWI considers them "terrorists".
Why would volunteers be in US prisons?


The Irish in the USA have a pretty shameful history. This has to be acknowledged but it also has to be understood within the framework of national oppression there which Trots completely ignore
The Irish in the US don't have a "shameful history", they have a history of being immigrants who struggled against oppression in the USA. Not a "shameful" one.

And Trotskyists shouldn't even be in this equation.

[HEAD ICE]

Right wing support for the IRA in America is something I've come across many times and is not in the least bit shocking to me given the nature of Irish nationalism in this country and abroad.

[Palingenisis]

The Irish in the US don't have a "shameful history", they have a history of being immigrants who struggled against oppression in the USA. Not a "shameful" one.

And Trotskyists shouldn't even be in this equation.

Trotskyites are in this equation because of who the OP is and Socialist Party/CWI's agenda in Ireland.

Irish people were involved in the genocide of the First Nations as well as the oppression of the Black/New African nation....There is NO getting around that (see the Bernadette Devlin quote and remember the whole thing about the Boston busing trouble as well as opposition to the war against the slave states).

[FreeFocus]

The Irish in the US don't have a "shameful history", they have a history of being immigrants who struggled against oppression in the USA. Saying they have a "shameful" history sounds like something an anti-Irish racist would say (which I know you're not).

In part. There's also a very significant history of supporting reactionary policies abroad and supporting slavery and ethnic cleansing in the US.

Irish-American reactionary political tendencies have more to do with the nature of American politics and culture. If they support the IRA, it doesn't say anything bad about the IRA, but rather about them because their exclusivist nationalism (which isn't shared by Irish Republicans in Ireland) doesn't allow them to have solidarity with the groups they have and do express racism against (Muslims and Arabs, African-Americans, American Indians, Hispanics, etc).

[Palingenisis]

Why would volunteers be in US prisons?


Arms smuggling.

[HEAD ICE]

Who gives a fuck about the Irish? I don't care at all about the Irish. Why is it necessary to point out the crimes of "the Irish in America" as if that is some kind of worthwhile distinction? A long time ago my family came to America in a boat from Ireland and I don't give a shit at all about my rancid "homeland." I have more in common with wage workers in a country thousands of miles away than bourgeois Irish Americans or those in my "homeland."

If class politics is given anything beyond lip service than we will realize that the "shameful history" of "Irish Americans" (lmfao) needs to be viewed within their historical, material contexts. We must look at how people act within their class interests rather than viewing it through some cheap reactionary lens of cultural and national pride.


Irish-American reactionary political tendencies have more to do with the nature of American politics and culture. If they support the IRA, it doesn't say anything bad about the IRA, but rather about them because their exclusivist nationalism (which isn't shared by Irish Republicans in Ireland) doesn't allow them to have solidarity with the groups they have and do express racism against (Muslims and Arabs, African-Americans, American Indians, Hispanics, etc).

Yes nationalism is thoroughly reactionary and a rejection of class politics be it in America or Ireland. Racism, nationalism, "defend our culture/heritage" are all anti-working class ideology.

[FreeFocus]

I have more in common with wage workers in a country thousands of miles away than bourgeois Irish Americans or those in my "homeland."

Too bad the vast majority of your ancestors, their contemporaries, and even your contemporaries didn't and don't see it that way.

[HEAD ICE]

Too bad the vast majority of your ancestors, their contemporaries, and even your contemporaries didn't and don't see it that way.

I agree, it's a shame really. The only solidarity that will end oppression is class solidarity. National solidarity provides nothing for the working class except their doom.

[Ninel]

Who gives a fuck about the Irish?
The Irish give a fuck about the Irish. Perhaps you haven't noticed but the majority of posters in this thread are Irish.

[Palingenisis]

Yes nationalism is thoroughly reactionary and a rejection of class politics be it in America or Ireland. Racism, nationalism, "defend our culture/heritage" are all anti-working class ideology.

Are you saying the First Nations' and the Black nation trying to hold on to their culture in the face of a savage colonialism is reactionary? That a member of the First Nations or Black nation is just another member of the working class and should shut up about their national oppression? Way to simplify things....

[gorillafuck]

Why is it necessary to point out the crimes of "the Irish in America" as if that is some kind of worthwhile distinction?I definitely agree that Irish history in America shouldn't have any sort of bearing on modern day politics.


A long time ago my family came to America in a boat from Ireland and I don't give a shit at all about my rancid "homeland."
I can't believe you seriously just called Ireland "rancid".

[Palingenisis]

I definitely agree that Irish history in America shouldn't have any sort of bearing on modern day politics.

It does though....I met have met a good few of Irish-American tourists who want to know all about the IRA blah, blah, blah and than start using the n word and complain in a sick racist way about Blacks and Latinos. That is related to their history...And dont talk to me about the Irish who immigrated to Azania/South Africa.

[gorillafuck]

It does though....I met have met a good few of Irish-American tourists who want to know all about the IRA blah, blah, blah and than start using the n word and complain in a sick racist way about Blacks and Latinos. That is related to their history...
I suppose you're right in the sense that racism definitely relates to history, yeah. I hadn't considered that when I wrote that.


And dont talk to me about the Irish who immigrated to Azania/South Africa.I couldn't tell you anything about it.

[pastradamus]

Feel free to extend the question to include other right wing groups, outside of the U.S, I know a few of the local fash, bizarrely, were also sympathetic to the Provos. Didn't Fianna Fail also give support to the IRA?

Well, what matters is the PIRA's opinion towards the local fash and not the other way around. The Provo's contained in their ranks multiple left-wing thinkers, activists and ASU's (active service units). Does this make the PIRA a left-wing organisation? No. The PIRA came about as a result of a split from the Official IRA when (under Cathal Goulding) they took up a left-wing doctrine, influenced heavily by the likes of Johnson and Coughlan. Traditionalists who, heavily influenced by the catholic church - and so conservative views - broke away and formed the PIRA.

The PIRA was later influenced by Gerry Adams (amongst others) who applied a Marxist doctrine (which he later turned his back on) resulting in many left-wing members of the Provo's amongst those already existing within the organisation itself.

To talk about the PIRA as being conservative throughout? I would disagree. It did however use any possible avenue it had to procure arms, one such organisation was NORAID where cash and modern American Weaponry were sourced. But in the IRA's opinon this was coming from Irish-Americans, they didn't exactly go carrying out opinion polls before hand or anything like that.

[HEAD ICE]

The Irish give a fuck about the Irish. Perhaps you haven't noticed but the majority of posters in this thread are Irish.

That's wonderful. However as a Marxist that is irrelevant to my politics.


I can't believe you seriously just called Ireland "rancid".

I have no loyalty to Ireland or any other nation. I could care less about Ireland. Workers should assert their class identity and not only reject but spit on their national "identity."

Ireland the country is pretty and the people are nice I bet, but obviously not what I was talking about given the context.

[pastradamus]

I suppose the whole Irish diaspora nationalist sentiment is what plays into it.

Sorry, but that statement is a complete write-off. There is nothing to suggest that while the Irish-Americans were funding the PIRA/Sinn Fein by funneling through NORAID they did so with the view of applying some racially-superior or far-right nationalist sentiment.

Most of the funding for NORAID was made with simple collections in local bars and functions on the East Coast of the USA with the funders handing out money with the view of ridding Ireland of an occupying force. Thats the way they saw it. Very simple, I know, but its the truth.

[Palingenisis]

To talk about the PIRA as being conservative throughout? I would disagree. It did however use any possible avenue it had to procure arms, one such organisation was NORAID where cash and modern American Weaponry were sourced. But in the IRA's opinon this was coming from Irish-Americans, they didn't exactly go carrying out opinion polls before hand or anything like that.

There were always reactionary elements within the Provos such as Gerry Mc Geough...Provo units greatly varied and that was their ultimate problem.

This is a very interesting document.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/07/07/the-left-archive-from-long-kesh-to-a-socialist-ireland-league-of-communist-republicans-c1988/

[Palingenisis]

The PIRA was later influenced by Gerry Adams (amongst others) who applied a Marxist doctrine (which he later turned his back on) resulting in many left-wing members of the Provo's amongst those already existing within the organisation itself.
.

Its almost completely forgotten today with all the talk of Gerry Adams's betrayal how happy the left of the Republican movement was to see those who formed Republican Sinn Fein fuck off.

[Robocommie]

Palingenesis, I have you on ignore for a reason.

Not that I'd use it on Palingenesis, but there's an ignore feature on Revleft?

[gorillafuck]

I have no loyalty to Ireland or any other nation. I could care less about Ireland. Workers should assert their class identity and not only reject but spit on their national "identity."

Ireland the country is pretty and the people are nice I bet, but obviously not what I was talking about given the context.
But calling Ireland "rancid" comes off as asserting something about the land itself (or at least seems like it to me) and as very chauvinistic.

Palingenisis: I've never heard of IRA crackdowns in the US, the US doesn't really care about the IRA as far as I can tell (I might be very wrong). I wouldn't be surprised if they're listed as a terrorist organization because they just fit well on the list to a lot of people.

[HEAD ICE]

There is no denying on my end that the Irish are an oppressed people. Just because the concept of the nation and race are social constructs doesn't make them not real. The history of Royal oppression of the Irish, the oppression of the American Indian and blacks in my country feel very real effects of these social constructs.

I hope I'm not coming across that we should ignore these things. But for an oppressed people to rally around "heritage" and "national pride" is an ineffective way to end their economic and political oppression. The question isn't does oppression exist, it does, but the question is how to end it.

I was your typical American who obsessed where my grandparents came from and I learned all I could about "my" history. My brother is even more pathetic, given he has a tattoo of a shamrock and an Irish flag. This type of rallying around culture and national identity obscures our common class interest by allying with bourgeois elements and it also pushes away the far more inspiring heritage of the working class.

Something I see a lot, even amongst Marxists, is this fetishising of "culture" and defending it. The goal of any communist should be to end the cultures of the world as we know it. Culture is not something separate from material conditions of human society, but an expression of it. Culture is an expression of oppressions both economic and political (there is much more to it as well). If we seek communism, we will be living in a world where every person on every corner of the planet will be producing together for the needs of all. This end of economic and political oppressions along with an undivided human community will bring about a new, superior culture which is what we should be striving for.

[Palingenisis]

T The goal of any communist should be to end the cultures of the world as we know it.

Yes Pol Pot...:rolleyes:

I know that comes across as trite but the fact is that culture builds on what has gone before. The idea of wiping the slate clean completely and delcaring a cultural year zero is extremely nihilistic.

[The Douche]

There is no denying on my end that the Irish are an oppressed people. Just because the concept of the nation and race are social constructs doesn't make them not real. The history of Royal oppression of the Irish, the oppression of the American Indian and blacks in my country feel very real effects of these social constructs.

I hope I'm not coming across that we should ignore these things. But for an oppressed people to rally around "heritage" and "national pride" is an ineffective way to end their economic and political oppression. The question isn't does oppression exist, it does, but the question is how to end it.

I was your typical American who obsessed where my grandparents came from and I learned all I could about "my" history. My brother is even more pathetic, given he has a tattoo of a shamrock and an Irish flag. This type of rallying around culture and national identity obscures our common class interest by allying with bourgeois elements and it also pushes away the far more inspiring heritage of the working class.

Something I see a lot, even amongst Marxists, is this fetishising of "culture" and defending it. The goal of any communist should be to end the cultures of the world as we know it. Culture is not something separate from material conditions of human society, but an expression of it. Culture is an expression of oppressions both economic and political (there is much more to it as well). If we seek communism, we will be living in a world where every person on every corner of the planet will be producing together for the needs of all. This end of economic and political oppressions along with an undivided human community will bring about a new, superior culture which is what we should be striving for.

Yeah bro, hip-hop and jazz are anti-communist.

[Crux]

what is the point of this thread.
apart from the op's dislike of irish republicans,what was the point of the thread.
...although the 1stpost does show the hypocrisy of the u.s.- supporting one kind of terrorist is 'official and supporting other terrorists is illegal.just as the people in usa who got 50years for allegedly giving money to hamas.
I am curious about conservatives, particularly in the U.S, supporting the IRA. So far a few people have simply tried to dodge the question.

[Jazzratt]

I am curious about conservatives, particularly in the U.S, supporting the IRA. So far a few people have simply tried to dodge the question. It's not that surprising that conservatives would support the IRA. Nationalism is an inherently cross-class cause so groups with anti-worker politics can be involved just as much as anyone else. The important part of the nationalist struggle is the replacement of a foreign bourgeoisie with a local one as the rulers. That it clearly divides the working class is just icing on the cake.

As for the IRA as a specific group I think it's helpful that they fight on the same side of the drug war as the conservatives and have the same views on crime and punishment.

[Demogorgon]

I am curious about conservatives, particularly in the U.S, supporting the IRA. So far a few people have simply tried to dodge the question.
I suspect there's a degree of romanticism involved, particularly as it plays into their world view. In reality, to the extent it is possible to speak of national identity at all Northern Ireland is clearly a multinational place but to Conservatives who love their idea of everyone within a given territory having to hold to a single national identity and "uphold the nation", a group seeking to assert a single nationality for the place is appealing.

You see a similar thing with Scottish Nationalism actually, though it is less prominent because the lack of violence and division over it in Scotland makes it less visible in America. A few years ago Trent Lott, for no apparent reason, spoke favourably of Scottish independence. You can imagine the fun Scottish Labour had with that, sticking it to the SNP who are actually to the left of Labour but because of Scottish political culture you need to paint yourself as the left and your opponent on the right in order to get the upper hand.

The question is why Lott backed independence though, in geopolitical terms it would be a bit of a nuisance for America, because it would reduce Britain's power and Britain is such a reliable ally of America, not to mention an independent Scotland would hardly be the sort of place Lott would like. Personally I am inclined to believe he enjoyed Braveheart and didn't have any idea about the actual facts of the matter, but it is interesting when put in the context of support for Irish Republicanism.

[Andropov]

NORAID and various other Irish American organisations were and are notoriously conservative.
The Provos would cleanse all Leftist rehtorric in America when fundraising in order for them to secure funds for the war effort because they did not want to upset the apple cart with Marxist rehtorric.
A perfect example was the way NORAID portrayed the 3 INLA men who died on Hunger Strike.
The fact that they were Marxists was conveniently swept aside.
It is just another feature of the transient policys of the Provisional Movement, they essentially are a chameleon and will change their colours when ever they wish.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

is it true that the Provos had a special version of 'An Phoblacht' for America with anything remotely leftist airbrushed out of it? Think I read something about that once

[MarxSchmarx]

The link of many Irish Americans inclined to be sympathetic to the IRA to the catholic church is also important. Unlike in Ireland or England and Australia, large-scale secularization in America is only just beginning. the church was a central part of several Irish communities, and has, especially in the last 3 decades, been a generally reactionary organization. To many Irish Americans, abortion in particular and general social divisions along white/black lines instead of the lines of protestant/catholic, native/foreign born etc.... are more than enough to move them in the right winger camp. Unlike the living institutionalization of the church, the IRA, is really of no more concern to the daily lives of the overwhelming majority of Irish Americans than support for Nepali Maoists. It is then seen by some as something quaint like the St. Patrick's day parade that is just a token reminder of their ties to the ancestral country.

[Andropov]

is it true that the Provos had a special version of 'An Phoblacht' for America with anything remotely leftist airbrushed out of it? Think I read something about that once
This is true, a perfect example being the Vietnam War.
In Ireland the Provos supported the Liberation of Vietnam while in America they supported the occupation of Vietnam.
Nothing too shocking, the Provisional leadership has always been fork tongued.

[pastradamus]

This is true, a perfect example being the Vietnam War.
In Ireland the Provos supported the Liberation of Vietnam while in America they supported the occupation of Vietnam.
Nothing too shocking, the Provisional leadership has always been fork tongued.

Absolutely, they did anything necessary in order to procure arms and im glad you answered that question because im half way through "the lost revolution - the official IRA and the Workers party" and that just came up! :lol:

[pastradamus]

The link of many Irish Americans inclined to be sympathetic to the IRA to the catholic church is also important. Unlike in Ireland or England and Australia, large-scale secularization in America is only just beginning. the church was a central part of several Irish communities, and has, especially in the last 3 decades, been a generally reactionary organization. To many Irish Americans, abortion in particular and general social divisions along white/black lines instead of the lines of protestant/catholic, native/foreign born etc.... are more than enough to move them in the right winger camp. Unlike the living institutionalization of the church, the IRA, is really of no more concern to the daily lives of the overwhelming majority of Irish Americans than support for Nepali Maoists. It is then seen by some as something quaint like the St. Patrick's day parade that is just a token reminder of their ties to the ancestral country.

That is a major issue. Even today, when my mother tells me that when she was young - the local Canon of the Catholic church passed them and she had to bend down on one knee, kiss the ring on his finger and greet him with "your eminence" (it was expected of you to do this). On one level it gives me the absolute creeps, but on the other level it astonishes me%2

[pastradamus]

The Irish in the USA have a pretty shameful history. This has to be acknowledged but it also has to be understood within the framework of national oppression there which Trots completely ignore just like the Joe Higgins ignores the special courts and internment in Ireland as well as supporting de facto sectarian marches.

What sectarian marches? I dont ever remember hearing Joe Higgins Condone such events. Nor do I believe he would condone such events such as in internment.

[Palingenisis]

What sectarian marches? I dont ever remember hearing Joe Higgins Condone such events. Nor do I believe he would condone such events such as in internment.

The Socialist Party line on the marches through Ardoyne should have been allowed because everyone expect actual hardcore fascists should have a right to march anywhere. They also never say anything about the Special Criminal courts which are basically internment.

[Crux]

What sectarian marches? I dont ever remember hearing Joe Higgins Condone such events. Nor do I believe he would condone such events such as in internment.
Don't feed the troll.

[Soldier of life]

What sectarian marches? I dont ever remember hearing Joe Higgins Condone such events. Nor do I believe he would condone such events such as in internment.

On a sidenote, the SP did say in their paper that republican socialists protesting the Royal Irish Regiment marching in the North was 'sectarian'. Different issue but worth noting.

[Crux]

On a sidenote, the SP did say in their paper that republican socialists protesting the Royal Irish Regiment marching in the North was 'sectarian'. Different issue but worth noting.
It's, in my opinion, more a matter of "how" rather than what. but this is a completely different issue and just a derail attempt by palingenisis. I suggest if you wish to continue this discussion do it elsewhere.

[MarxSchmarx]

The link of many Irish Americans inclined to be sympathetic to the IRA to the catholic church is also important. Unlike in Ireland or England and Australia, large-scale secularization in America is only just beginning. the church was a central part of several Irish communities, and has, especially in the last 3 decades, been a generally reactionary organization. To many Irish Americans, abortion in particular and general social divisions along white/black lines instead of the lines of protestant/catholic, native/foreign born etc.... are more than enough to move them in the right winger camp. Unlike the living institutionalization of the church, the IRA, is really of no more concern to the daily lives of the overwhelming majority of Irish Americans than support for Nepali Maoists. It is then seen by some as something quaint like the St. Patrick's day parade that is just a token reminder of their ties to the ancestral country. That is a major issue. Even today, when my mother tells me that when she was young - the local Canon of the Catholic church passed them and she had to bend down on one knee, kiss the ring on his finger and greet him with "your eminence" (it was expected of you to do this). On one level it gives me the absolute creeps, but on the other level it astonishes me%2

It is to the considerable credit of the working class in the republic and a few lucky breaks wrt the church exposing is banal evil that I think the catholic churh will no longer have the stranhold it once had. This isn't unique to Ireland, to be sure, but that this kind of thing like kissing the cleric's ring seems so absurd to the generation coming of age today I think shows for those of us that didn't grow up with it, the ubiquity of catholic rituals and the grip that the church had on everyday life cannot be underestimatd.

My guess is that within another generation (wher there is virtually no memory of anti-Irish/anti-catholic sentiment), the Irish diaspora even in America would abandon the church, if they haven't already. I doubt seriously that the IRA will fare any better.

[Andropov]

That is a major issue. Even today, when my mother tells me that when she was young - the local Canon of the Catholic church passed them and she had to bend down on one knee, kiss the ring on his finger and greet him with "your eminence" (it was expected of you to do this). On one level it gives me the absolute creeps, but on the other level it astonishes me%2
Not even noteing the fact about the Industrial schools where children of the poorest in Ireland were interned for what the Murphy report itself stated there only crime was being poor.
Not a family in Ireland didnt have relations in these sadistic institutions where the biggest pedophile ring in Ireland was working out of.
But even in day to day life in the 50's and 60's when my father was a child he said at Christmas the Parish priest would read out the annual contribution each family made to the Church from the alter.
It effectively meant public embaressment for the poorest in the parish who couldnt even afford shoes for their kids, this in a time when Ireland was still effectively a third world country.
No wonder that the Church is effectively dead here and the sooner it dies the better.
But what boggles the mind with Irish Americans who equate Catholicism and Republicanism is that the Church excemunicated Republicans who opposed the treaty, the Church has always been a tool the British Establishment have used in opposing Republicanism.

[Manic Impressive]

I always like to remind the jesus freaks that it was the pope who first "gave" the island of Ireland to the English

[The Grey Blur]

In reality, to the extent it is possible to speak of national identity at all Northern Ireland is clearly a multinational place
no

[pastradamus]

Not even noteing the fact about the Industrial schools where children of the poorest in Ireland were interned for what the Murphy report itself stated there only crime was being poor.
Not a family in Ireland didnt have relations in these sadistic institutions where the biggest pedophile ring in Ireland was working out of.
But even in day to day life in the 50's and 60's when my father was a child he said at Christmas the Parish priest would read out the annual contribution each family made to the Church from the alter.
It effectively meant public embaressment for the poorest in the parish who couldnt even afford shoes for their kids, this in a time when Ireland was still effectively a third world country.
No wonder that the Church is effectively dead here and the sooner it dies the better.
But what boggles the mind with Irish Americans who equate Catholicism and Republicanism is that the Church excemunicated Republicans who opposed the treaty, the Church has always been a tool the British Establishment have used in opposing Republicanism.

Thats fucking sick man. But a brilliant point all the same.
The murphy report is what will eventually kill this backward, monarchistic and secretive organisation off - and for the better. There is still a last section of the murphy report still to be delivered after investigations have been carried out and, apparently its going to be a bitter pill for the catholic hierarchy.

Its also worth noting that not only were republicans excommunicated, but also early trade unionists, socialists and people outside their conservative bracket. I remember being told that they used to hand out mass cards during the 60's with a picture of some random russian soldier on them and the idea was you pray for this young mans soul so that he will turn away from his "communist atheism" and be accepted into heaven...sounds bizarre today.

[Cheung Mo]

The British have no business being in the Irish Homeland.

The following steps need to be taken:

1. Ban the Free Presbyterian Church and other far-right organizations

2. One 32 County Ireland. Anyone in Northern Ireland who has a problem renouncing the crown and swearing their fealty to a united and socialist Ireland are to be driven out and resettled in the UK at the expense of the British taxpayers. It's fucking sad that Russians are treated like shit in Latvia in Lithuania even though they have far more right to be there than the British have to be in Ireland.


Random interesting fact: Slobodan Milosevic was an atheist and nominally a leftist, but Ian Paisley admired him for oppressing Catholics and Muslims. That's how fucked up the Unionist far-right is.

[The Grey Blur]

The British have no business being in the Irish Homeland.

The following steps need to be taken:

1. Ban the Free Presbyterian Church and other far-right organizations

2. One 32 County Ireland. Anyone in Northern Ireland who has a problem renouncing the crown and swearing their fealty to a united and socialist Ireland are to be driven out and resettled in the UK at the expense of the British taxpayers. It's fucking sad that Russians are treated like shit in Latvia in Lithuania even though they have far more right to be there than the British have to be in Ireland.


Random interesting fact: Slobodan Milosevic was an atheist and nominally a leftist, but Ian Paisley admired him for oppressing Catholics and Muslims. That's how fucked up the Unionist far-right is.

you're mental. good luck bringing about socialism by physically driving out of the country anyone who disagrees with you.

[Demogorgon]

no
you're mental. good luck bringing about socialism by physically driving out of the country anyone who disagrees with you.
Based on your disagreement that Northern Ireland was multi-national, I was going to use your post as an example of why the American right is often sympathetic to the IRA and the like, but the other post I quote shows some common sense, so I'll tone it down.

Nevertheless it is a simple statement of fact that Northern Ireland has no clearly defined identity, a large portion see themselves as Irish and a large portion as British and that itself is a gross over-simplification. Any attempt to deny that and say one side is right and that the other must simply accept it, whether that be a Unionist position of Northern Ireland being clearly British and the rest of Ireland being a foreign country or a position of stating people who feel British have no business feeling such regardless of their backgrounds and upbringing is an attempt to impose national identity on people and something the right wing is very very fond of. That is where the support in America comes from. It is also, incidentally, why the right of the COnservative party in Britain, not to mention other more right wing groups oppose any kind of powersharing in Northern Ireland and want Government there turned over to the Unionists alone as it was in the days of the Northern Ireland parliament.

[Andropov]

Its also worth noting that not only were republicans excommunicated, but also early trade unionists, socialists and people outside their conservative bracket. I remember being told that they used to hand out mass cards during the 60's with a picture of some random russian soldier on them and the idea was you pray for this young mans soul so that he will turn away from his "communist atheism" and be accepted into heaven...sounds bizarre today.
Ohh ive heard those storys before.
A well known Communist Councillor that was elected while in the CPI here was regularly denounced at the alter by the Bishop and at the end of mass the Bishop would ask the congregation to pray for the conversion of the USSR and the CPI Councillor. Couldnt make this shit up.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Don't feed the troll.

Typical post from you on this subject, nice game plan tho.

Anyone who dares mention SP collaboration with the counter revolution in the North of Ireland is to be shouted down as a troll.
Typical shit from the trendy wankers.

[The Grey Blur]

Based on your disagreement that Northern Ireland was multi-national, I was going to use your post as an example of why the American right is often sympathetic to the IRA and the like, but the other post I quote shows some common sense, so I'll tone it down.

Nevertheless it is a simple statement of fact that Northern Ireland has no clearly defined identity, a large portion see themselves as Irish and a large portion as British and that itself is a gross over-simplification. Any attempt to deny that and say one side is right and that the other must simply accept it, whether that be a Unionist position of Northern Ireland being clearly British and the rest of Ireland being a foreign country or a position of stating people who feel British have no business feeling such regardless of their backgrounds and upbringing is an attempt to impose national identity on people and something the right wing is very very fond of. That is where the support in America comes from. It is also, incidentally, why the right of the COnservative party in Britain, not to mention other more right wing groups oppose any kind of powersharing in Northern Ireland and want Government there turned over to the Unionists alone as it was in the days of the Northern Ireland parliament.
It's not a nationalist position to acknowledge that Northern Ireland is geographically and nationally 'Irish'. Your analysis is not unique, the BICO (british & irish communist organisation) and the Officials both adopted this 'two nation' analysis during the 1970s. Peter Hadden of the Irish Militant who passed away recently debated with this idea when it had a modicum of traction within the labour movement in Ireland, and he was certainly no republican; your position is one which could only possibly (ironically enough) lead to civil and ethnic conflict if it were true. Unless you really believe after 400 or so years of colonial integration and inter-marriage/settling that the lowland Scots/British who settled in Northern Ireland are still nationally 'pure'?

The Orange is an element of Irish nationality and culture, noone is trying to deny that. I think your position (and that of BICO etc) is a de facto Unionist one, and results from an inability to understand partition in the context of Imperialism and conscious efforts to foster sectarianism amongst the working class.

I don't agree that the above played any crucial role in conservative diaspora support for the Provisional IRA, I think the various other theories floated in this thread carry a lot more weight - it's a mixture of romanticism and nationalism exceptionalism, as well as a "we'll take what we're given" approach on the part of the Provisional movement. None of what you pointed out (right-wing identification with romantic nationalism, isolationism, etc) are exclusive to the Irish situation.

[Sasha]

The Radicalization of Peter King


— By Tim Murphy (http://motherjones.com/authors/tim-murphy)
| Mon Dec. 20, 2010 10:31 AM PST


http://mjcdn.motherjones.com/preset_16/gerry_adams_web.gif— Photo: Wikimedia Commons

Rep. Peter King (R-NY), last seen calling WikiLeaks a terrorist organization (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/11/28/2010-11-28_media_unveils_classified_documents_via_wikileak s_website_in_explosive_release_of.html), is back in the news after annnouncing plans to hold hearings (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/nyregion/17king.html) next year on the radicalization of America's Muslim communities. King believes Muslim leaders have been less than helpful in combatting extremists in their ranks, and he'd like to find out why.
The timing is a little curious: Just two weeks ago, members of a mosque in Orange County became so concerned about a possible extremist in their ranks, they reported him to the FBI (It turned out he was an FBI agent (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2010/12/04/ST2010120404317.html); this is basically Fletch for the terror age). But the larger issue is King, whose ability to spot terrorists is unmatched. That is, he constantly spots terrorists where there are none at all, like an Icelandic clairvoyant (http://www.slate.com/id/2213353/) tasked with inspecting construction sites for the presence of elves (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/international/europe/13elves.html?_r=1). Here's what he told Sean Hannity back in 2004 (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=23257), for instance, while promoting his novel, Vale of Tears (http://www.amazon.com/Vale-Tears-Peter-T-King/dp/1589790626):

"I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists...Those who are in control. The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don't work, they don't come forward, they don't tell the police."
80-85 percent! Run for your lives!


(http://oascentral.motherjones.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/motherjones.com/mojo/page.html/L30/712011843/Middle1/MJones/M1_PBS_12.1.10_12.31.10_300x250/PBS_Dist_GIA_300x250_v2f.jpg/50714f2f3755305351476f4141663972?x)

But there's more to the story. In the '80s and 90s, King was himself captivated by a bearded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams), charismatic leader dismissed by many as a radical extremist. King's friend was driven by an unshakable religious conviction, and a centuries-long list of grievances; his network was known for its brutality—dismembered digits (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/family-fears-ira-cut-mums-fingers-207018.html) were a hallmark—and for the fear they instilled among the general public. Oh, and bombings. Especially the bombings.
Although he's since severed his ties to the group, for most of his career King viewed the Irish Republican Army, and its political mouthpiece Gerry Adams, as freedom fighters, and believed this so fervently, he spoke at fundraisers for an aid organization that had been accused of funnelling money to the organization. From the New York Sun (http://www.nysun.com/national/rep-king-and-the-ira-the-end-of-an-extraordinary/15853/):

[King] once called the IRA "the legitimate voice of occupied Ireland," he was banned from the BBC by British censors for his pro-IRA views, and he refused to denounce the IRA when one of its mortar bombs killed nine Northern Irish police officers...

The GOP in Nassau tried, unsuccessfully, to muzzle him, and he complained that the FBI was opening mail sent from Ireland, including letters from Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams. In 1984, the Secret Service listed him as a threat when President Reagan made a trip to Nassau County to watch a Special Olympics event.
Emphasis mine. Plenty of American politicians have expressed their sympathy for Irish Republicans. But to my knowledge, King's the only one to ever dismiss an IRA hit as a "pub dispute (http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/6501919/the-return-of-peter-king-watch.thtml)." All of which is just to say that, for a man who sees terrorists everywhere he looks, King's actual record of confronting terrorism is a wee bit dodgy.
Tim Murphy is an editorial fellow at Mother Jones.

source: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/12/radicalization-peter-king?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Motherjones/mojoblog+%28MotherJones.com+|+MoJoBlog%29&utm_content=Twitter

[scarletghoul]

Attempts by these hacks to equate Al Qaeda with the PIRA are just disgusting tbh, and pathetic to the extent that they emphasise the leaders' beardedness (above).. IRA bombs were at military and economic targets, usually with a warning where civilians were involved. And anyone who thinks the IRA was "driven by an unshakable religious conviction" needs their head checked.

And yes they exploited Irish-Americans' sense of nationalism. They would have been stupid not to, considering it provides a link to the centre of the world's arms trade.

[Sasha]

Attempts by these hacks to equate Al Qaeda with the PIRA are just disgusting tbh, and pathetic to the extent that they emphasise the leaders' beardedness (above).. IRA bombs were at military and economic targets, usually with a warning where civilians were involved. And anyone who thinks the IRA was "driven by an unshakable religious conviction" needs their head checked.

And yes they exploited Irish-Americans' sense of nationalism. They would have been stupid not to, considering it provides a link to the centre of the world's arms trade.

i know its an stupid liberal piece of poor reporting, i just posted it because of the facts about the representive, wich does, no matter the difrences between islamic radicalism and irish volunteerism, showing him an hypocrite

[A.J.]

3IAIAWyCDzM
So how widespread is this, seemingly contradictory, support for republicanism among american Republicans?

This poor attempt to cofuse and de-moralise Left wing support for the National Liberation struggle in Ireland is obviously because you're little trotskyite sect cryptically supports British imperialism.

This comes of no suprise due to the fact that the forerunner of your sect, the so-called "militant tendency" had a barely concealed support for British imperialism during Falklands war. As has previously been discussed on here.

[Demogorgon]

It's not a nationalist position to acknowledge that Northern Ireland is geographically and nationally 'Irish'. Your analysis is not unique, the BICO (british & irish communist organisation) and the Officials both adopted this 'two nation' analysis during the 1970s. Peter Hadden of the Irish Militant who passed away recently debated with this idea when it had a modicum of traction within the labour movement in Ireland, and he was certainly no republican; your position is one which could only possibly (ironically enough) lead to civil and ethnic conflict if it were true. Unless you really believe after 400 or so years of colonial integration and inter-marriage/settling that the lowland Scots/British who settled in Northern Ireland are still nationally 'pure'?

The Orange is an element of Irish nationality and culture, noone is trying to deny that. I think your position (and that of BICO etc) is a de facto Unionist one, and results from an inability to understand partition in the context of Imperialism and conscious efforts to foster sectarianism amongst the working class.

I don't agree that the above played any crucial role in conservative diaspora support for the Provisional IRA, I think the various other theories floated in this thread carry a lot more weight - it's a mixture of romanticism and nationalism exceptionalism, as well as a "we'll take what we're given" approach on the part of the Provisional movement. None of what you pointed out (right-wing identification with romantic nationalism, isolationism, etc) are exclusive to the Irish situation.
I certainly don't claim it is a unique analysis, I simply think it is a statement of fact, there is more than one national identity at play in Northern Ireland. I must emphasise very strongly that this has nothing to do with "national purity" such a thing being as ridiculous as it is disgusting and everything to do with the way groups identify themselves. "Nationality" is an invented concept so there is little point in trying to claim that Ireland should be seen as a single indivisible national unit when there are far too many people within it who don't see it that way. That is not a reason incidentally to think unification would be a bad idea, Ireland could cope with being a multi-national state so long as it respected the rights of the national minority, something I rather suspect it would do better than British ruled Northern Ireland has done with the Irish community. So I do not point out that it is multi-national as anything to do with the rights and wrongs of partition, merely to point out that it is very in keeping with the right to attempt to impose a single national identity on people.

On another note to simply claim that the "Orange" tradition is Irish is problematic in of itself. If so, what are the idiots who insist on holding Orange parades here? They can hardly be described as Irish after all. Moreover to claim that these people are simply Irish actually undermines the Imperialism claim because the driving force behind partition and subsequent persecution of the Nationalist minority in Northern Ireland was the Protestant elite predominantly based in Ulster. If they are "Irish" then surely partition and all that followed was a case of a dominant group systematically discriminating against and persecuting an oppressed group within a single country, not in fact, one of imperialism?

[Aurora]

Trotskyites are in this equation because of who the OP is and Socialist Party/CWI's agenda in Ireland.

Typical post from you on this subject, nice game plan tho.

Anyone who dares mention SP collaboration with the counter revolution in the North of Ireland is to be shouted down as a troll.
Typical shit from the trendy wankers.

This poor attempt to cofuse and de-moralise Left wing support for the National Liberation struggle in Ireland is obviously because you're little trotskyite sect cryptically supports British imperialism.

Could you all possibly stfu? seriously Majakovskij didn't mention the SP/CWI at all in the OP he asked a genuine question about PIRA support.
I think you damage your own position by equating PSF/PIRA with all socialist republicanism, no?

Here's a question to you, do you think PSF/PIRA are still a national liberation movement?

[fionntan]

I can only but laugh at some of the posters on her trying to attack militant revouloutionaries for being militant.. But yet preach JUST what??... Militant revolution..Tut tut..As for the swed anti Irish reactionary was pa pa a mercinary in the north by any chance????RUC yes..

[Salyut]

Here's a question to you, do you think PSF/PIRA are still a national liberation movement?

They're inactive so...no.

[fionntan]

The provos stood down as did the sticks there will ALWAYS be armed resistance in Ireland as long as it is occupied by the british. Ireland unfree shall never be at peace..... End The occupation.. Victory to the IRA.. Beir Bua

[fionntan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG23JMoskHw

[Andropov]

On another note to simply claim that the "Orange" tradition is Irish is problematic in of itself.
Oh dear.
I dont want to be too harsh but you really do not understand the Unionist or Loyalist here in Ireland.
They call themselves Irish and are very proud of that fact, and they also call themselves British.
They do not call themselves Scots or English so im afraid that two nation drivel that the sticks floated years ago doesnt fly.
Not even the Unionist minority call themselves another nationality so it is indeed a bit odd that Socialists would do it for them.

[Andropov]

Anyone who dares mention SP collaboration with the counter revolution in the North of Ireland is to be shouted down as a troll.
No sense of irony there at all no?

[Demogorgon]

Oh dear.
I dont want to be too harsh but you really do not understand the Unionist or Loyalist here in Ireland.
They call themselves Irish and are very proud of that fact, and they also call themselves British.
They do not call themselves Scots or English so im afraid that two nation drivel that the sticks floated years ago doesnt fly.
Not even the Unionist minority call themselves another nationality so it is indeed a bit odd that Socialists would do it for them.
Once again, what are the orange orders in Scotland then?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Oh dear.
I dont want to be too harsh but you really do not understand the Unionist or Loyalist here in Ireland.
They call themselves Irish and are very proud of that fact, and they also call themselves British.
They do not call themselves Scots or English so im afraid that two nation drivel that the sticks floated years ago doesnt fly.
Not even the Unionist minority call themselves another nationality so it is indeed a bit odd that Socialists would do it for them.

I thought most loyalists were completely adamant that they're 100% British and not Irish at all?

[Palingenisis]

I thought most loyalists were completely adamant that they're 100% British and not Irish at all?

Only the really mad ones.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Only the really mad ones.

Alright then, that's good I suppose

[Crux]

Typical post from you on this subject, nice game plan tho.

Anyone who dares mention SP collaboration with the counter revolution in the North of Ireland is to be shouted down as a troll.
Typical shit from the trendy wankers.

Oh jesus, the blind leading the blind.

[Crux]

Could you all possibly stfu? seriously Majakovskij didn't mention the SP/CWI at all in the OP he asked a genuine question about PIRA support.
I think you damage your own position by equating PSF/PIRA with all socialist republicanism, no?

Here's a question to you, do you think PSF/PIRA are still a national liberation movement?
They're just cementing their positions, comrade. Some people are just lost causes when it comes to politics, or you know, being able participate in online discussions without pathetic derail attempts when they feel like getting defensive. I didn't know we had so many people okay with the Republicans on here. I am not trying to "confuse" anything, I am stating facts, facts that obviously make some on here so uncomfortable they feel forced to try and change the subject.

[Demogorgon]

I thought most loyalists were completely adamant that they're 100% British and not Irish at all?
Not exactly, but unlike what some would claim here they don't see themselves as part of the wider Irish nationality. Regardless of the details though, the point is that you have two different national identities at play in Northern Ireland and ignoring that doesn't have a very good track record.

[Crux]

I can only but laugh at some of the posters on her trying to attack militant revouloutionaries for being militant.. But yet preach JUST what??... Militant revolution..Tut tut..As for the swed anti Irish reactionary was pa pa a mercinary in the north by any chance????RUC yes..
I am sorry, I don't waste my time on the mentally unstable.

[Andropov]

Once again, what are the orange orders in Scotland then?
A reactionary mobilisation that manifested itself largely as an anti-immigrant organisation in that the defining feature between the Immigrant Irish in Scotland and the "native" Scots was religion.
Couple this then with the sectarianism from Ireland that followed immigrants to Scotland and you have a suitably festering soare that is the Orange Order.

[Demogorgon]

A reactionary mobilisation that manifested itself largely as an anti-immigrant organisation in that the defining feature between the Immigrant Irish in Scotland and the "native" Scots was religion.
Couple this then with the sectarianism from Ireland that followed immigrants to Scotland and you have a suitably festering soare that is the Orange Order.
That is accurate enough, but the point was it doesn't tie in with the argument that the Orange movement is "Irish" in nature. It is fading away now but the Orange Order used to be a really big problem in the West of Scotland, and it was definitely a Scottish problem in nature. The target obviously was predominantly Irish, though also Italian, but the idiots doing it had no background in Ireland, North or South.

[Andropov]

I thought most loyalists were completely adamant that they're 100% British and not Irish at all?
Not at all, a common misconception.
They define their nationality as Irish but also as part of Britain, they see being British you can be Irish also, think of the original act of Union when Ireland was considered British.
When talking with Loyalists they will of course tell you that they are Irish, look at one of the figureheads of Loyalism in Ireland Edward Carson, read his speechs and you will see that Loyalists do not see themsleves as Scots or English but as Irish, an Irish identity they see tied to the Union and as such British also.
The Two Nations theory has been long discredited.

[Andropov]

That is accurate enough, but the point was it doesn't tie in with the argument that the Orange movement is "Irish" in nature. It is fading away now but the Orange Order used to be a really big problem in the West of Scotland, and it was definitely a Scottish problem in nature. The target obviously was predominantly Irish, though also Italian, but the idiots doing it had no background in Ireland, North or South.
I never said the Orange Movement is Irish in nature.
I really dont see your point here.

[Demogorgon]

I never said the Orange Movement is Irish in nature.
I really dont see your point here.
Neither you did, it was someone else, sorry.

Back to the point though, first of all the older Unionist position that to be Irish is to be British is a very out of date notion, it is still popular in the Scottish context but given that absolutely nobody today disputes that 26 out of the 32 counties of Ireland are definitely not British, the identity dispute is solely centred around Northern Ireland. Which isn't to say that those who see themselves as British there do not also see themselves as having some degree of an Irish identity, but rather that they see themselves as something quite different from other Irish people. Call it British, call it British-Irish or indeed call it a distinct Ulster Identity which is what many of them say it is, the point is that it is a distinct identity from the Irish identity of the other 40% of people living there.

[costello1977]

I am sorry, I don't waste my time on the mentally unstable.

lol Love the fact that you dismiss the opinions of thousands of people because you feel they aren't up to your standard.

Im an Irish Republican Socialist. We don't need marxist etc to legitimise our struggle to attain Irish freedom and workers republic. What I find interesting that you feel that you have every right to come on here and attack Irish Republican socialists without them being given the opportunity to defend themselves. You are the worst type of anarcho-trash Ive ever seen.

Your lefty liberal psuedo existence on this site is an embarrassment to proper Republican and socialists worldwide.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Not at all, a common misconception.
They define their nationality as Irish but also as part of Britain, they see being British you can be Irish also, think of the original act of Union when Ireland was considered British.
When talking with Loyalists they will of course tell you that they are Irish, look at one of the figureheads of Loyalism in Ireland Edward Carson, read his speechs and you will see that Loyalists do not see themsleves as Scots or English but as Irish, an Irish identity they see tied to the Union and as such British also.
The Two Nations theory has been long discredited.

Alright then. I thought it was like before partition they considered themselves Irish and British, but since partition this whole idea of "we're not Irish, we're British" and the Free State and the 6 counties being "two separate countries" had taken over, but I guess it's not as bad as I thought it was

[Crux]

lol Love the fact that you dismiss the opinions of thousands of people because you feel they aren't up to your standard.

Im an Irish Republican Socialist. We don't need marxist etc to legitimise our struggle to attain Irish freedom and workers republic. What I find interesting that you feel that you have every right to come on here and attack Irish Republican socialists without them being given the opportunity to defend themselves. You are the worst type of anarcho-trash Ive ever seen.

Your lefty liberal psuedo existence on this site is an embarrassment to proper Republican and socialists worldwide.
You are an embaressement generally if you claim "thousands of people" believe my "papa was in the RUC". Again another case of the blind leading the blind. Yes your ad popolum, ad hominem and strawmen sure shredded my argument. Oh wait. I believe in the right to armed resistance. Yet I am not a provo, stickie or particularly sympathethic to any of their split-offs. Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

[The Grey Blur]

They're just cementing their positions, comrade. Some people are just lost causes when it comes to politics, or you know, being able participate in online discussions without pathetic derail attempts when they feel like getting defensive. I didn't know we had so many people okay with the Republicans on here. I am not trying to "confuse" anything, I am stating facts, facts that obviously make some on here so uncomfortable they feel forced to try and change the subject.
come on, it's revleft. the standard of debate is low and you must have known when you started this thread the sort of gimps that crawl out of the woodwork. there are some bad eggs amongst the republicans who post here, and those are the ones who got defensive over what i think is a legitimate question (so long as everyone keeps in mind this political dichotomy isn't something uniquely exclusive to the irish struggle for national liberation) but quite a few of us have also responded to the thread with reasonable responses.

btw: merry xmas

[The Grey Blur]

Neither you did, it was someone else, sorry.

Back to the point though, first of all the older Unionist position that to be Irish is to be British is a very out of date notion, it is still popular in the Scottish context but given that absolutely nobody today disputes that 26 out of the 32 counties of Ireland are definitely not British, the identity dispute is solely centred around Northern Ireland. Which isn't to say that those who see themselves as British there do not also see themselves as having some degree of an Irish identity, but rather that they see themselves as something quite different from other Irish people. Call it British, call it British-Irish or indeed call it a distinct Ulster Identity which is what many of them say it is, the point is that it is a distinct identity from the Irish identity of the other 40% of people living there.

"Peter would object that a left republican programme "fails to embrace anything approaching a programme to win over the British-Irish population". I have never heard the Ulster Protestants refer to themselves as 'British-Irish' and very few would claim the status of a distinct nationality, however for reasons of convenience I will refer to them here as the 'British-Irish'. How does one challenge Orangeism and Loyalism and win over the 'British-Irish' as Peter calls them?

One has to make a clear distinction between the 'British-Irish' population and Orangeism, loyalism and unionism. An ethno-national group should not be confused with a particular political ideology. Not all the 'British-Irish' are loyalists. Maintaining the distinction between the two is essential if one wants to encourage 'British-Irish' breaking away from the reactionary Orangeism, loyalism and unionism, and currents independent of them emerging amongst the 'British-Irish' workers.

A left republican programme would accept the right of the 'British-Irish' to define themselves as they want. Social republicanism does not have a problem with people considering themselves to be British or believing in the Protestant religion. Everyone in Ireland has the right to hold on to his or her own identity, culture and perceived nationality. For example, there are Chinese people in Ireland who consider themselves to be Chinese and are holding on to their language and culture, the same with Polish or Nigerian people, etc. So if the Protestant people in the North consider themselves to be British and not Irish, republicans should have no problem with it."


http://irsm.org/history/leftrepublicanism.html

[pastradamus]

The Socialist Party line on the marches through Ardoyne should have been allowed because everyone expect actual hardcore fascists should have a right to march anywhere. They also never say anything about the Special Criminal courts which are basically internment.

Im not a member of the socialist party - nor do I intend on ever becoming so, but, any time I hear them talking about the north its full of anti-sectarian speeches, Im not saying your wrong comrade but I've read extensively on them and never come across a sentiment.

In my own opinion the loyalist movement in the north ARE fascists. They operate completely and totally on the basis of class, religion and sect.

[costello1977]

You are an embaressement generally if you claim "thousands of people" believe my "papa was in the RUC". Again another case of the blind leading the blind. Yes your ad popolum, ad hominem and strawmen sure shredded my argument. Oh wait. I believe in the right to armed resistance. Yet I am not a provo, stickie or particularly sympathethic to any of their split-offs. Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Who said yer da was in the RUC? Yer from Sweden and if you think any working class person in Ireland would give two fcuks what you think, your desperately mistake.

At least you have admitted that you believe in the legitimacy of armed struggle. Wouldn't have mattered either way. Your irrelevant to what Ireland needs. You can counter that claim with "so too are the dissidents!" or whatever, but that argument when the war goes back on. Whether thats next year or next decade, who knows?

Lets shape up some realistic facts here.......

Who stands up for the working class in Ireland?

In republican areas, which are working class, it is the so called dissies. The monsters who offer nothing yet help their communities day in day out.

In loyalist areas, there is generally no one.

So answer me this. Where are all the "working class heros"? Where are the anarchos or the liberal lefties like the SWP or even the sticks? Sitting in fcuking bars talking nonsense about Marxist Leninist rhetoric.

Thats what I love about the liberal lefties who sit and take potshots at the Ra for engagin with a foreign occupation. For all the put downs like Nationalists and reactionaries, its the IRA who practice the Marxist-Leninist theories preached by their detractions.

Saoirse go deo......

[Demogorgon]

"Peter would object that a left republican programme "fails to embrace anything approaching a programme to win over the British-Irish population". I have never heard the Ulster Protestants refer to themselves as 'British-Irish' and very few would claim the status of a distinct nationality, however for reasons of convenience I will refer to them here as the 'British-Irish'. How does one challenge Orangeism and Loyalism and win over the 'British-Irish' as Peter calls them?

One has to make a clear distinction between the 'British-Irish' population and Orangeism, loyalism and unionism. An ethno-national group should not be confused with a particular political ideology. Not all the 'British-Irish' are loyalists. Maintaining the distinction between the two is essential if one wants to encourage 'British-Irish' breaking away from the reactionary Orangeism, loyalism and unionism, and currents independent of them emerging amongst the 'British-Irish' workers.

A left republican programme would accept the right of the 'British-Irish' to define themselves as they want. Social republicanism does not have a problem with people considering themselves to be British or believing in the Protestant religion. Everyone in Ireland has the right to hold on to his or her own identity, culture and perceived nationality. For example, there are Chinese people in Ireland who consider themselves to be Chinese and are holding on to their language and culture, the same with Polish or Nigerian people, etc. So if the Protestant people in the North consider themselves to be British and not Irish, republicans should have no problem with it."


http://irsm.org/history/leftrepublicanism.html
Which is a reasonable position, but the problem is that unionists are not reassured by that. Personally speaking I want Ireland to be unified and believe that unification should not impede the ability of Unionists to have their distinct identity, however at present they don't want that.

The difficulty I think is far too much focus is made on Britain and not enough on division within Northern Ireland itself. Suppose Unionists were to say, as a few do on occasion, that they accept that Britain should no longer have jurisdiction in Northern Ireland but that Northern Ireland should remain separate. That is to say it should become an independent country on equal terms to the republic of Ireland, but remain partitioned.

What argument can you give against that that does not rest on claims that Ireland is indivisible whether they like it or not?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Which is a reasonable position, but the problem is that unionists are not reassured by that. Personally speaking I want Ireland to be unified and believe that unification should not impede the ability of Unionists to have their distinct identity, however at present they don't want that.

The difficulty I think is far too much focus is made on Britain and not enough on division within Northern Ireland itself. Suppose Unionists were to say, as a few do on occasion, that they accept that Britain should no longer have jurisdiction in Northern Ireland but that Northern Ireland should remain separate. That is to say it should become an independent country on equal terms to the republic of Ireland, but remain partitioned.

What argument can you give against that that does not rest on claims that Ireland is indivisible whether they like it or not?

It's fruitless to try address the problem of sectarianism in the six-counties as a way of beating the British occupation when it's the British presence that actively causes and promotes sectarianism. Now you might say that without addressing sectarianism there would be a bloodbath in the event of a British withdrawal with the loyalists not wanting to join with the 26 counties etc. However, time and time again leading loyalists have made clear that in the event of their 'doomsday scenario' of British withdrawal, they would be willing to accept a united Ireland where they had some degree of autonomy. The UDA were on the verge of agreeing with the Provos' "Éire Nua" program of a federal Ireland where Munster, Connacht, Leinster and a 9-county Ulster would've all been autonomous regions in the 70s, but then the Free State sabotaged the negotiations.

[Crux]

come on, it's revleft. the standard of debate is low and you must have known when you started this thread the sort of gimps that crawl out of the woodwork. there are some bad eggs amongst the republicans who post here, and those are the ones who got defensive over what i think is a legitimate question (so long as everyone keeps in mind this political dichotomy isn't something uniquely exclusive to the irish struggle for national liberation) but quite a few of us have also responded to the thread with reasonable responses.

btw: merry xmas
Yeah, that's why I have palingenisis on ignore. I mean I didn't even diss the provos, notice how I said "seemingly contradictive". Some people, man...Yeah, it's not an all over dis, I just think I am in my right to tell fionntan to fuck off. And yeah, it's certainly not exclusive to Irish conditions, I was just unaware of this priorly.

[Crux]

Who said yer da was in the RUC? Yer from Sweden and if you think any working class person in Ireland would give two fcuks what you think, your desperately mistake.

At least you have admitted that you believe in the legitimacy of armed struggle. Wouldn't have mattered either way. Your irrelevant to what Ireland needs. You can counter that claim with "so too are the dissidents!" or whatever, but that argument when the war goes back on. Whether thats next year or next decade, who knows?

Lets shape up some realistic facts here.......

Who stands up for the working class in Ireland?

In republican areas, which are working class, it is the so called dissies. The monsters who offer nothing yet help their communities day in day out.

In loyalist areas, there is generally no one.

So answer me this. Where are all the "working class heros"? Where are the anarchos or the liberal lefties like the SWP or even the sticks? Sitting in fcuking bars talking nonsense about Marxist Leninist rhetoric.

Thats what I love about the liberal lefties who sit and take potshots at the Ra for engagin with a foreign occupation. For all the put downs like Nationalists and reactionaries, its the IRA who practice the Marxist-Leninist theories preached by their detractions.

Saoirse go deo......
Nah, I am confident in the irish comrades community work, but I couldn't give two fucks about someone as illiterate as yourself. Read what your responding to next time, like Fionntan's post.

[The Grey Blur]

Who said yer da was in the RUC? Yer from Sweden and if you think any working class person in Ireland would give two fcuks what you think, your desperately mistake.

At least you have admitted that you believe in the legitimacy of armed struggle. Wouldn't have mattered either way. Your irrelevant to what Ireland needs. You can counter that claim with "so too are the dissidents!" or whatever, but that argument when the war goes back on. Whether thats next year or next decade, who knows?

Lets shape up some realistic facts here.......

Who stands up for the working class in Ireland?

In republican areas, which are working class, it is the so called dissies. The monsters who offer nothing yet help their communities day in day out.

In loyalist areas, there is generally no one.

So answer me this. Where are all the "working class heros"? Where are the anarchos or the liberal lefties like the SWP or even the sticks? Sitting in fcuking bars talking nonsense about Marxist Leninist rhetoric.

Thats what I love about the liberal lefties who sit and take potshots at the Ra for engagin with a foreign occupation. For all the put downs like Nationalists and reactionaries, its the IRA who practice the Marxist-Leninist theories preached by their detractions.

Saoirse go deo......
you're an eejit. you're fetishing armed struggle, you're not a socialist you're a physical force nationalist. ideology isn't just something to be discussed in bars, it's something that has to inform your actions - that's why the degeneration of sinn féin has taken place, because everything is subordinate to nationalist aspirations without any real practical commitment to socialism.

the dissidents are a mixed bag, i have no time for the reactionaries and neither should any serious socialist republican. you're confusing backwards argument ad populum support for punishment beatings etc as revolutionary activity.

honestly, i've no idea what point you're even trying to make. load of phrase-mongering nonsense. you've taken objection to what is nothing more than a statement of fact from the OP - conservatives amongst the irish diaspora somehow reconciled this with supporting the provisional movement.

[costello1977]

you're an eejit. you're fetishing armed struggle, you're not a socialist you're a physical force nationalist. ideology isn't just something to be discussed in bars, it's something that has to inform your actions - that's why the degeneration of sinn féin has taken place, because everything is subordinate to nationalist aspirations without any real practical commitment to socialism.

the dissidents are a mixed bag, i have no time for the reactionaries and neither should any serious socialist republican. you're confusing backwards argument ad populum support for punishment beatings etc as revolutionary activity.

honestly, i've no idea what point you're even trying to make. load of phrase-mongering nonsense. you've taken objection to what is nothing more than a statement of fact from the OP - conservatives amongst the irish diaspora somehow reconciled this with supporting the provisional movement.

Reactionary? lol So what exactly is it a reaction to? It was fair enough to call the PRM and the sticks reactionary-They reacted to an abnormal situation. What are the Reals or the Contos reacting to? British Imperialism? Surely then, considering that every other party in Ireland is a reaction to British Imperialism, everyone including the IRSP is reactionary. Your suggestion that I am an eegit rings hollow in consideration of the fact that you have perpetuated the misuse of the term "reactionary".

As for the phrase mongering, Im not the one quoting a militant republican, yet decrying his aims and ambitions. I would say butchering Ta Power's support of armed struggle to suit your own political means is wrong. Power envisaged a strong INLA run by the politics of the IRSP. Where is the INLA now?

As the relevancy of my posts to the original posts, I didn't start posting on this page until page 5, what preceeded that was a lot of anti-Irish Republican diatribe, which was allowed to proceed unabated. Thats what I responded to.

Actually, for all my phrase mongering, pull a phrase out of that for me, that I have made up.

[costello1977]

Nah, I am confident in the irish comrades community work, but I couldn't give two fucks about someone as illiterate as yourself. Read what your responding to next time, like Fionntan's post.

I did. You responded to what I posted with a mish mash of other posts. Stop it. Have the courtesy to respond to my post.

As for illiteracy, Is fearr gaeilge bhriste ná bearla cliste.

[Crux]

I did. You responded to what I posted with a mish mash of other posts. Stop it. Have the courtesy to respond to my post.

As for illiteracy, Is fearr gaeilge bhriste ná bearla cliste.
Nothing worth responding to but feel free to revel in your own stupidity, mo "chara". And no you didn't. Do you even know what you responded to? Alltså, vi kan snacka svenska om du föredrar det. För alla vet ju att man bara kan diskutera socialism på svenska. :rolleyes:

[The Grey Blur]

you don't even understand what reactionary means...case closed.

[costello1977]

Rubbish. Case closed?


–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, marked by, or favoring reaction, esp. extreme conservatism or rightism in politics; opposing political or social change.




Care to explain how any of the IRA's politics or actions have ever been reactionary then? How could their actions which challenge the status quo ie the bourgeoisie Irish and the imerpialist English, be considered reactionary?

Or are you twisting the meaning of the word?

[costello1977]

Nothing worth responding to but feel free to revel in your own stupidity, mo "chara". And no you didn't. Do you even know what you responded to? Alltså, vi kan snacka svenska om du föredrar det. För alla vet ju att man bara kan diskutera socialism på svenska. :rolleyes:

Nothing worth responding to because you have nothing to fcuking offer to the Irish. Nothing but empty sentiments and useless rhetoric.

That seems to be all you can offer, talk. Nothing revolutionary about quoting Marx and Engels when it has no relativity to anyone outside yer head.

Ja vi ett tala på svenska om du vill, betyder mycket för mig vilket språk vi samtala i. Tyvärr är allt du vill göra konversera på språket i misslyckande.

Ag iarraidh a lipéad streachailt ar son na saoirse na hÉireann mar go bhfuil reactionary chicanery briathartha. Is é fírinne an scéil ná go streachailt ar nós MTE, an PLFP agus réabhlóidí eile, tá siad dúshlán an status quo agus an imperialists atá fós a chur ar na hoibrithe síos.

[fionntan]

you don't even understand what reactionary means...case closed.

Now tell me this you and the swed seem to think you have a better concept of "class politics" than me or the other poster..But yet im guessing do not partake in the above on the streets of Belfast or any other fucking streets.But yet deem yourselves fit to call us nationalists reacationiers iliterate and and the rest.Im thinking if anyone needs to be called reactionary it would be you two.....

[Devrim]

As for illiteracy, Is fearr gaeilge bhriste ná bearla cliste.

Personally I prefer clever English to people breaking the Irish language.

Devrim

[Crux]

Now tell me this you and the swed seem to think you have a better concept of "class politics" than me or the other poster..But yet im guessing do not partake in the above on the streets of Belfast or any other fucking streets.But yet deem yourselves fit to call us nationalists reacationiers iliterate and and the rest.Im thinking if anyone needs to be called reactionary it would be you two.....
You are "thinking" eh? I doubt it. And you know fuck all about my activism. I am cadre, that's all you need to know. And yes, correct, I am not an irish nationalist.

[fionntan]

You are "thinking" eh? I doubt it. And you know fuck all about my activism. I am cadre, that's all you need to know. And yes, correct, I am not an irish nationalist.


Can you ever stop the fucking insults.And i am not an Irish nationalist.And if your activism is anything like your anti irish attitude on here im glade to say your no comrade of mine.

[Crux]

Can you ever stop the fucking insults.And i am not an Irish nationalist.And if your activism is anything like your anti irish attitude on here im glade to say your no comrade of mine.
Well, of course I am marxist. You're not. And you shouldn't be one to talk about insults, man. Can you just stop posting? Your presence is not needed. Thanks.

[fionntan]

Well, of course I am marxist. You're not. And you shouldn't be one to talk about insults, man. Can you just stop posting? Your presence is not needed. Thanks.

I wont stop posting no.And as far as calling yourself a marxist goes i am a real life communist not a book reading wana be intellectual..So keep your anti Irish bigitory to yourself...

[Crux]

I wont stop posting no.And as far as calling yourself a marxist goes i am a real life communist not a book reading wana be intellectual..So keep your anti Irish bigitory to yourself...
yes reading clearly isn't your strong side. So why did you deicide to make an appearance here again? You hardly contributed anything at all, except for some slight amusement. Stop whining and make your case, or just, you know don't post. If you can't think of anything feel free to not respond.

[fionntan]

Should all us Irish on here just zip it??? Because you call us reactionary morans mentaly deraganged nationalists....I think not

[Crux]

Should all us Irish on here just zip it??? Because you call us reactionary morans mentaly deraganged nationalists....I think not
"all us irish"? I assure you, you, fionntan, do not speak for the irish, on this forum or anywhere else. But thanks for showing off your nationalism once more. So, if you remember, what is this thread about? It's a pretty simple question, but I doubt you'll be able answer it.

[costello1977]

Well, of course I am marxist. You're not. And you shouldn't be one to talk about insults, man. Can you just stop posting? Your presence is not needed. Thanks.

Now could someone correct me if Im wrong, but I can't remember Marxism being elitist. Not only have you insulted Fionntan, but you habitually insult other posters valid points rather than respond to them because you lack the ability to defend your own point in debate. That means you use insults to attack your opponent, rather than debate the point. The man made a good relevant argument.


You are "thinking" eh? I doubt it. And you know fuck all about my activism. I am cadre, that's all you need to know. And yes, correct, I am not an irish nationalist.

Start with an insult, then state the obvious. Yes, he does not know the extent of your activism, because you don't tell him. Vice versa. We also know your not an Irish Nationalist, because your not from Ireland.


I wont stop posting no.And as far as calling yourself a marxist goes i am a real life communist not a book reading wana be intellectual..So keep your anti Irish bigitory to yourself...

Why should fionntan have to stop posting? He is merely defending his point of view from a barrage of anarcho-lefty tripe.


yes reading clearly isn't your strong side. So why did you deicide to make an appearance here again? You hardly contributed anything at all, except for some slight amusement. Stop whining and make your case, or just, you know don't post. If you can't think of anything feel free to not respond.

Once again, start with an insult. I think thats a disgraceful comment to make. No "marxist" would use disability to attack another persons point of view. You made the point earlier that he doesn't know you. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM. How do you know he is not suffering from a learning disability? This whole post smacks of elitism, something Ive only found on here and within delusionary Sinn Fein semantics.



"all us irish"? I assure you, you, fionntan, do not speak for the irish, on this forum or anywhere else. But thanks for showing off your nationalism once more. So, if you remember, what is this thread about? It's a pretty simple question, but I doubt you'll be able answer it.

Nor too do you speak for anyone but yourself. You exhibit throughout this thread how little you grasp of the class nature of the struggle for Irish Freedom. By continually calling Republican Socialists "reactionary" and "nationalist", you are perpetuating your ignorance of the state of affairs in Ireland.

Armed struggle, the armed struggle used by Republican Socialists, is not reactionary in any sense.

[Crux]

Then I am sure you could actually quote something I've said. Or better yet explain to me where the valid argument is in: "I can only but laugh at some of the posters on her trying to attack militant revouloutionaries for being militant.. But yet preach JUST what??... Militant revolution..Tut tut..As for the swed anti Irish reactionary was pa pa a mercinary in the north by any chance????RUC yes.. "
Which was the fionntan post you valiantly came here to defend.

[fionntan]

Then I am sure you could actually quote something I've said. Or better yet explain to me where the valid argument is in: "I can only but laugh at some of the posters on her trying to attack militant revouloutionaries for being militant.. But yet preach JUST what??... Militant revolution..Tut tut..As for the swed anti Irish reactionary was pa pa a mercinary in the north by any chance????RUC yes.. "
Which was the fionntan post you valiantly came here to defend.


The point i made still stands. Answer it.

[Crux]

The point i made still stands. Answer it.
Yes, ok. You have no idea what revolution is. Revolution is not placing some carbombs or "punishment shootings" against supposed criminals. Even if these activitities had been valid you betray a fundamental lack of understanding of what revolution is.

[costello1977]

Yes, ok. You have no idea what revolution is. Revolution is not placing some carbombs or "punishment shootings" against supposed criminals. Even if these activitities had been valid you betray a fundamental lack of understanding of what revolution is.

So sitting on your laptop talking sh8te is revolution?

[Crux]

So sitting on your laptop talking sh8te is revolution?
Is that your plan B if blowing thing's up do not work?

[fionntan]

Is that your plan B if blowing thing's up do not work?
I think a mod should bann you for implying me or the other poster want to bomb or kill anyone. Where we live you can get 15 years for idiots like you..

[costello1977]

Is that your plan B if blowing thing's up do not work?

Where did I say that? Are you trying to incriminate two posters?

I think this is a very dangerous post to be making.

[fionntan]

Is that your plan B if blowing thing's up do not work?


I hope every right minded person on here reports this post to admin. As he is implying and has done the whole thread that me and the other poster are "terrorists".. namely because we are Irish. You scummy anti Irish bastard..

[costello1977]

I hope every right minded person on here reports this post to admin. As he is implying and has done the whole thread that me and the other poster are "terrorists".. namely because we are Irish. You scummy anti Irish bastard..

A lot of anti-irish sentiment is posted on here to be honest. You would be forgiven for thinking you are read pulse, the UVF/combat 18 forum, at times.

Sad to see "free thinkers" are so racist at times.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

A lot of anti-irish sentiment is posted on here to be honest. You would be forgiven for thinking you are read pulse, the UVF/combat 18 forum, at times.

Sad to see "free thinkers" are so racist at times.

Check out this howler from an old thread about a rapist getting his balls blown off in a punishment shooting

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

[costello1977]

Check out this howler from an old thread about a rapist getting his balls blown off in a punishment shooting


It sickens me that these people think they can lecture normal people about M_L, yet they trample all over it's meaning by exhibiting such reactionary racism!

[Marxach-Léinínach]

It sickens me that these people think they can lecture normal people about M_L, yet they trample all over it's meaning by exhibiting such reactionary racism!

I think that guy was actually an anarchist though

[costello1977]

I think that guy was actually an anarchist though

Well sure thats worse lol

Didn't realise that, but then again, racism sounds the same whether its coming from an anarchists or a Nazi!

[Sean]

I think a mod should bann you for implying me or the other poster want to bomb or kill anyone. Where we live you can get 15 years for idiots like you..
Fiontann, nearly every other post you make is aggressive sabre-rattling about how awesome shooting people is. If its just hot air, then the sarcasm is justified. If it isn't, then you should probably tone down your own speech and stop bragging about it online. I honestly don't care which you are but common sense dictates you should just quit it. Its not conductive to any kind of debate we're interested in having here.

[The Grey Blur]

http://files.sharenator.com/implied_facepalm_Facepalm-s646x501-42869.jpg

you're both a pair of eejits with a brain cell between youse.

edit: @ fiontann and costello77

btw costello why do you have a picture of gerard steenson as your avatar? jfc.

[costello1977]

http://files.sharenator.com/implied_facepalm_Facepalm-s646x501-42869.jpg

you're both a pair of eejits with a brain cell between youse.

edit: @ fiontann and costello77

btw costello why do you have a picture of gerard steenson as your avatar? jfc.

Im an eegit? Bit rich considering that you have failed at every possible juncture to actually address any point made by either poster. We have presented our arguments quite lucidly and youse have attacked our posters with great vehemency without actually offering a resonable rebuttal.

So, two brain cells? Seems a bit rich when all you and that other poster can do is throw out insults. Every neandrathals could come up with some of the utterances the two of youse have posted.

The fact that you are continually trying to bash our position with insults is becoming contrived and shows a limited understanding of the complex nature of the Irish working class and its relationship with the Republican movement.

As for having Steensy as my avatar, it is fairly irrelevant to any of my posts. In my opinion, Steensy was a great Republican and is unfortunately painted as some sort of criminal or degenerate by his enemies. People forget that the INLA, at its height of activity, was under his control in Belfast.

[pastradamus]

Thread closed. I've seen enough insults here thrown back and forth. Its gone off topic like so many other Republican-orientated threads.