Clash of ideologies?

[ComradeMan]

Are the events we are witnessing in Europe the clash of ideologies? Or the clash of generations? Or perhaps both...

Any thoughts.....?

[scarletghoul]

How about class struggle.

[ComradeMan]

How about class struggle.

I'm afraid it's beyond that in many senses.... the students are not proletarians or workers nor do they all come from proletarian/worker families nor from families that have the same political ideology or tradition.

[Bud Struggle]

I think they want a change of government NOT a change of ideology.

[ComradeMan]

I think they want a change of government NOT a change of ideology.

And these governments do not pursue an ideology....?

[Magón]

I'm not completely sure about it, but I'm pretty sure that a majority of those who are fighting these austerity plans aren't all that rich. If they were, why would they be fighting if it hardly mattered since they've already got money?

[Bud Struggle]

And these governments do not pursue an ideology....?

Sure--same old Capitalism with a dash of Socialism that they have always had. Itlaly has 30-40 governments since WW2, has any one been Communist? Has Communism even come Close?

You showed there were a lot of Communist parties in Italy--but how many have elected people to government? Do people even know the names of these parties? (There are plenty of Communist parties in the USA, but 99% of the people can name only one--and that one isn't even Communist.)

[ComradeMan]

Sure--same old Capitalism with a dash of Socialism that they have always had. Itlaly has 30-40 governments since WW2, has any one been Communist? Has Communism even come Close?

Ever heard of Operation Gladio?

What about Aldo Moro who was brokering a deal with the Communist Party and then look what happened to him...

[Bud Struggle]

Ever heard of Operation Gladio?

What about Aldo Moro who was brokering a deal with the Communist Party and then look what happened to him...

Gladio was the usual Cold War us against them plotting and planning. I'm sure the Soviets had something similar on their side.

But I forgot about Aldo Moro--the RED BRIGADE! They came out looking like they were the bad guys in that one.

[Fabrizio]

I'm not completely sure about it, but I'm pretty sure that a majority of those who are fighting these austerity plans aren't all that rich. If they were, why would they be fighting if it hardly mattered since they've already got money?

yes, it's basically rich vs poor.

[scarletghoul]

I think they want a change of government NOT a change of ideology.
Most students here are disillusioned with bourgeois politics. A lot of them voted for Clegg because of his liberal opportunism, but since he got the chance of power the lib dems have been forced to move into the arena of realistic bourgeois political practice, and that means a shift to the right away from their election promises which were never actually serious proposals. Thrusting the friendly face of lib dem opportunism into the realm of real political power has meant a complete collapse of the illusion that this system can represent the masses of the people. There is now no party at all in high politics which people think works in their interests. Now that the lib dems have joined the Tories and Labour in establishing themselves as a party of the rich, many students are left with a void of discontent where the lib dem vote used to be. A void which can only be filled with violence. So yes, they do want a change in government, but they are developing class consciousness and beginning to understand that this government can't come from the bourgeois political system. A change in ideology is occurring.

I'm afraid it's beyond that in many senses.... the students are not proletarians or workers nor do they all come from proletarian/worker families nor from families that have the same political ideology or tradition.
A lot of students are poor.

[ComradeMan]

Gladio was the usual Cold War us against them plotting and planning. I'm sure the Soviets had something similar on their side.

But I forgot about Aldo Moro--the RED BRIGADE! They came out looking like they were the bad guys in that one.

And who were the Red Brigade?

[Bud Struggle]

And who were the Red Brigade?

A bunch of murders hiding under the Communist banner.

[ComradeMan]

A bunch of murders hiding under the Communist banner.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9556


This article suggests the Red Brigades were actually a CIA backed counter-revolutionary/anti-communist/anti-left bunch of agents provocateurs.

The Red Brigades

The Red Brigades were a leftist Italian terrorist organization that was formed in 1970. In 1974, Red Brigade founders Renato Curcio and Alberto Franceschini were arrested. Alberto Franceschini later accused a top member of the Red Brigades, Mario Moretti, of turning them in, and that both Moretti and another leading Red Brigade member, Giovanni Senzani, were spies for the Italian and US secret services.[11] Moretti rose up through the ranks of the Red Brigades as a result of the arrest of the two founders.

The Red Brigades and the CIA

The Red Brigades worked closely with the Hyperion Language School in Paris, which was founded by Corrado Simioni, Duccio Berio and Mario Moretti. Corrado Simoni had worked for the CIA at Radio Free Europe, Duccio Berio had been supplying the Italian SID with information of leftist groups and Mario Moretti, apart from being accused by the Red Brigades founders as being an intelligence asset, also happened to be the mastermind and murderer of former Italian Prime Minister, Aldo Moro. An Italian police report referred to the Hyperion Language School as “the most important CIA office in Europe.”[12]

[Quail]

I'm afraid it's beyond that in many senses.... the students are not proletarians or workers nor do they all come from proletarian/worker families nor from families that have the same political ideology or tradition.
There are a lot of students from "proletarian" families. I don't know where you got the idea that most weren't, especially after the thread you made a few days ago about students.

[ComradeMan]

There are a lot of students from "proletarian" families. I don't know where you got the idea that most weren't, especially after the thread you made a few days ago about students.

Not all though. These issues seem to be cutting across "classes". Most of the students in Italy are from the middle-bands of society.

I think this is more like a whole generation of pissed off people.

@Scarletghoul- don't misuse the word "poor", I know it's relative, but seriously "poor"- a homeless person is poor, people who live in refugee camps or shant towns are poor etc...

[Ele'ill]

Most of the students in Italy are from the middle-bands of society.

Do you have a source for this and other associated data?


I think this is more like a whole generation of pissed off people.Are you saying there isn't a reason for it? That it's a generational fad of sorts?


@Scarletghoul- don't misuse the word "poor", I know it's relative, but seriously "poor"- a homeless person is poor, people who live in refugee camps or shant towns are poor etc...I understood what they said just fine because losing your job and not being able to feed your family isn't unique to the worst slums in the world.

[ComradeMan]

Do you have a source for this and other associated data?.

Well I was student back in the day and these were the ongoing discussions of the moment then- It's been simmering away for over 15 years or more. Many of the students were then, and probably are now not from what you would call typical proletarian backgrounds or working class families- there's a mixture to the extent that applying class definitions doesn't really work in my opinion, but that's a topic for another thread.

But remember it's not just about the students, especially not here. It's about anyone under the age of 40 having a hard time trying to make ends meet because of the policies of successive governments. It's about people who are educated people and the best they can hope for is a "contratto a progetto"- it's about a whole generation who believe they have no prospects other than banal mediocrity.


Are you saying there isn't a reason for it? That it's a generational fad of sorts? .

So 1968 was a generational "fad"? Anyway the word of the moment here is that there is a "clash of generations", with all the differences that would accompany that.


I understood what they said just fine because losing your job and not being able to feed your family isn't unique to the worst slums in the world.

Yeah but the students aren't losing their jobs and are not in the position of not being able to feed their families. Non sequitur.

[Quail]

Not all though. These issues seem to be cutting across "classes". Most of the students in Italy are from the middle-bands of society.

I think this is more like a whole generation of pissed off people.

In the UK, at least where I am, there seem to be more working class students than ones that live up to the stereotype of a spoilt young person with wealthy parents.

There are a lot of pissed off people, but it isn't just restricted to students. The unions are planning demonstrations and strikes. People are having their livelihoods or their futures taken away from them when it isn't even necessary. Of course people are going to get pissed off. The cuts are harsh to the working people, and the people sitting on top are still doing fine.

Of course, there are also students who defend the cuts (one girl on my facebook comes to mind) so it's misleading to claim that all students are angry.

[ComradeMan]

In the UK, at least where I am, there seem to be more working class students than ones that live up to the stereotype of a spoilt young person with wealthy parents.

Well the UK is a pretty class ridden society and I suppose it may be different.

But as fot the stereotypical spoilt young person with bourgeois parents... I have actually come across very few of those. The really bourgeoisie don't need to bother with education, their children go into the family business! LOL!!! :lol:

[Quail]

Well the UK is a pretty class ridden society and I suppose it may be different.

Perhaps it's because all the rich kids are at Oxbridge as opposed to Sheffield.

[ComradeMan]

Perhaps it's because all the rich kids are at Oxbridge as opposed to Sheffield.

What would be the proportions according to class definitions of the families, of the students in the UK?

[Quail]

I don't really know, or have any statistics to hand. I do know though that the vast majority of people in Oxford and Cambridge come from welathy familes. My university paper published an article a while ago about the class backgrounds of its students, but I'm not sure what the criteria it used for "working class" were, especially since they also used "middle class" as a category, which is basically a meaningless term.

[Ele'ill]

Well I was student back in the day and these were the ongoing discussions of the moment then- It's been simmering away for over 15 years or more. Many of the students were then, and probably are now not from what you would call typical proletarian backgrounds or working class families- there's a mixture to the extent that applying class definitions doesn't really work in my opinion, but that's a topic for another thread.

I would say a lot of the people who are angry are angry because it affects them directly.



But remember it's not just about the students, especially not here.
It's about anyone under the age of 40 having a hard time trying to make ends meet because of the policies of successive governments. It's about people who are educated people and the best they can hope for is a "contratto a progetto"- it's about a whole generation who believe they have no prospects other than banal mediocrity.

Unless we're solely discussing the student related issues which I thought we were.






So 1968 was a generational "fad"?

What?



Anyway the word of the moment here is that there is a "clash of generations", with all the differences that would accompany that.

You mean a clash of generations within the left or that all of this going on right now is caused by a generational clash?




Yeah but the students aren't losing their jobs and are not in the position of not being able to feed their families. Non sequitur.

They are losing their jobs and unable to find jobs just like everybody else. Those students come from families that are going through or trying to rebound back from those situations which are not unique to the worst slums in the world.

[ComradeMan]

I don't really know, or have any statistics to hand. I do know though that the vast majority of people in Oxford and Cambridge come from welathy familes. My university paper published an article a while ago about the class backgrounds of its students, but I'm not sure what the criteria it used for "working class" were, especially since they also used "middle class" as a category, which is basically a meaningless term.

Hang on though, those are two universities out of how many?

However it would be interesting if you could find that article and put the material up. :thumbup1:

I don't think middle-class is a meaningless term and Marx didn't think so either.
http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/Marxclass.htm

[Quail]

The reason I think "middle class" is a meaningless term is that it's so poorly defined and used in so many contexts.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to find the article or not. I'll have a look.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

In the first place, if you go from a definition of "ideology" as "one's imaginary relationship to a real situation" (quoting roughly Althusser), then the fact that people define their struggle as ideological or not is irrelevant: the issue is whether we can see beyond their own varying definitions to a unifying principle on either side of this struggle.

In the second place, let's not confuse class conflict with ways of defining class, especially self-definitions. In America, for instance, almost everyone defines themselves as "middle-class" or "average."

In the third place, the above two points are particularly true of many students in Europe and America right now, because the concept of widely available post-secondary education (college, university, etc.) is, for most of them, two generations old at best. Likewise, you've got a hell of a lot of people whose conflict arises from the fact that they want to define themselves as middle-class,but they're poor and getting poorer - more precisely, they see themselves pushed back to the level of their grandparents, and that scares the shit out of them. This, BTW, was a major aspect of student attitudes in France in '68.

I think it's important to understand that there are two distinct student "classes" at present. Same holds true in America. And it's true, also, that these two groups are being pushed further and further apart. Didn't see too many kids from Oxford throwing molotov cocktails, did we?

[Kiev Communard]

Sure--same old Capitalism with a dash of Socialism that they have always had. Itlaly has 30-40 governments since WW2, has any one been Communist? Has Communism even come Close?

You showed there were a lot of Communist parties in Italy--but how many have elected people to government? Do people even know the names of these parties? (There are plenty of Communist parties in the USA, but 99% of the people can name only one--and that one isn't even Communist.)

Actually PCI (original Italian Communist Party founded in 1921) had as many as 989,708 members even in 1991, before its collapse, with its peak being 2,252,446 in 1947 (see this file, first column "PCI/PDS" (http://www.cattaneo.org/archivi/adele/iscritti.xls)), and the number of its voters reached 34,4% (the winner of the election, the Christian Democrats, polled 38,8%) in 1976, so that it was second most popular party. The PRC and PdCI,the radical splits form PCI, were supported by 10,1% of electorate as late as 2007, before their fall due for not being radical enough and tailing the Democrats. Even small Trotskyist Workers' Communist Party (PCL) got 208,000 votes in the 2008 elections.

[ComradeMan]

Actually PCI (original Italian Communist Party founded in 1921) had as many as 989,708 members even in 1991, before its collapse, with its peak being 2,252,446 in 1947 (see this file, first column "PCI/PDS" (http://www.cattaneo.org/archivi/adele/iscritti.xls)), and the number of its voters reached 34,4% (the winner of the election, the Christian Democrats, polled 38,8%) in 1976, so that it was second most popular party. The PRC and PdCI,the radical splits form PCI, were supported by 10,1% of electorate as late as 2007, before their fall due for not being radical enough and tailing the Democrats. Even small Trotskyist Workers' Communist Party (PCL) got 208,000 votes in the 2008 elections.

The PRC did not exactly split from the PCI as such.

With the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of "communism" in the Eastern Bloc and also Moscow's new position and role, the old Italian Communist Party or PCI became the Democratic Party of the Left or PDS led by Occhetto. Armando Cossutta and so about a third refused do be part if this new Soc-Dem type party and formed the Rifondazione Comunista. The PdCI in turn split from the PRC in 1998.

[Dimentio]

People in general don't care about ideologies. They want a change of policies.

Most people do not want to overthrow the system. They want to survive within it.