What does the word liberal mean in america?

[electro_fan]

Just asking because ive heard some people useing it to mean really left wing. To me a liberal is someone who says that they are left wing and might support some "left wing" causes but actually isnt, so say for example, to take a really stupid and obvious example, someone who didnt agree with the iraq war but like doesn't agree with workers going on strike. or someone who thinks that the world would be a better place if we were all nice to each other and that sort of thing.

obviously because of the situation in my country with our government (with a party, the liberal democrats that were thought to be left wing but are to the right of the labour party), it now means something really really bad :D and if someone said i was a liberal i'd regard it as an insult.

but what does it mean over there to you guys? because ive been arguing with some americans and want to settle this :D

[Amphictyonis]

Liberal politicians are conservatives suffering from a sort of outwardly dishonest self righteousness. Supporters of liberal politicians are idiots who have fallen for the illusion of democracy.

Lame duck wedge issues separate the two camps. Social issues which depend not on politics but the progression of our society itself. The real meat and potatoes of governance has to do with foreign policy and economics/public programs. On those issues it doesn't matter who's in office. Even on the 'social issues' they're not that different-

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[Lunatic Concept]

I see them as people so soft-left it makes very little difference at all.:(

[Magón]

I see them to be people who are content with a Capitalist economic system, yet want to be able to say that they're not Racist, Hateful, etc. :rolleyes:

[RadioRaheem84]

Right Soc Dem. New Labour = American Liberal.

[electro_fan]

yeah thats what i thought, but some people seemed to be saying it to mean someone who was like me ...

[Catma]

Right-wingers in the states use "liberal", "Socialist", "Communist", "progressive" and "Nazi" interchangeably.

[electro_fan]

oh ok the guy who said this to me is quite a leftie and seems pretty clued up (he used to be a trot) though which was why i was wondering

[syndicat]

"liberal" does have a different meaning than in Europe because there was never any mass social democratic or labor party in the U.S. so mass protest movement demands have tended to be adopted, but always in a very limited way, through the Democratic party, or parts of it.

in the 19th century "liberal" meant in the U.S. what it did in Europe and was characterized by laissez faire and "free trade" dogma...like present-day neo-liberals or right wing "libertarians".

but the meaning began to change during the "Progressive" era. the Progressive movement was a middle class protest movement against corruption and in response to the rising working class socialism and radical farmer populism of that era. to fend off socialist demands for things like public ownerhip of utillties or farmer demands for nationalization of the railways, the Progressives proposed government regulation.

this trend reached its highest point with the New Deal in the '30s. at that time the Democrats channeled the mass working class rebellion of that era, and enacted various welfare state programs like Social Security, unemployment insurance, legal minimums for wages etc. And then this was extended in the '60s/70s era due to the civil rights movement, welfare rights movement, worker wildcat strikes etc, so you had things like Occupational Safety & Health Act, Clean Water Act, Voting Rights Act and so on.

so in the USA "liberal" refers to those who favor using government regulation as a protection against corporate depredations and to limit exploitation and provide a "social wage" of benefits. the American version of the welfare state. but American "liberalism" never had any background in socialism. Nor was the Democratic party anything other than a capitalist controlled party at any time in its history. European Social democracy on the other hand originated from the labor movement and originally claimed to be motivated by socialist values and aims.

because of the existence of social democracy in Europe, European "liberalism" tended to remain closer to its original 19th century free market, laissez faire origins than its American cousin. in the USA "liberal" had a meaning closer to social-democracy than in Europe. but here i'm thinking of the continent of Europe. I'm not so sure about UK. for example I think Lloyd George may have been a type of liberal closer to the American model. aslo, the Liberal Democrats were formed through a merger of the social democratic alliance (right wing Labour Party split) and the old Liberal Party.

but in more recent years this "liberalism" in the USA has been rotted out and tends to be replaced by neo-liberalism, which is closer to the 19th century laissez faire doctrine....hence the "neo" in "neo-liberal". but there still are some liberals in the U.S. who are closer to the New Deal welfare state variety. this is why the far right in the USA accuses them of being "socialists".

[electro_fan]

OK thanks, that's really helpful :) And yes you are right about the democratic party and liberalism being linked but i was a bit confused as to why the democrats were seen as left wing, because ive got quite little knowledge of the whole period, and i had heard about the "dixiecrats" who were really racist - but it seems there are a lot of factions/groups in the demorcrat party?

i have another question :D It used to be that the labour party was considered to be a workers' party with a borgoise leadership (and still is to a extent by some), did any american lefties take a similar stance with the democrats?

i think that liberal here used to mean what it means in america, but there are like two "types" of liberals - like economic and social, and a lot of people here think that if you say dont like war or something it means you're a leftie, and to me a liberal is this really

but im a lot less confused now :)

[syndicat]

OK thanks, that's really helpful :) And yes you are right about the democratic party and liberalism being linked but i was a bit confused as to why the democrats were seen as left wing, because ive got quite little knowledge of the whole period, and i had heard about the "dixiecrats" who were really racist - but it seems there are a lot of factions/groups in the demorcrat party?

the Democratic Party is not a disciplined party on the European model. it's a very loose network of politicians who are based on clientelist relationships to local social groups. so you can have some Dems in poor big city districts closer to social democracy and racist or anti-labor Dems in the suburbs or rural states. the racist Dixiecrats go back to the party of the old planter elite in the south. after the civil rights laws were passed in the '60s, much of that party defected to the Republicans and now the Republicans are dominant in much of the south. recruiting the racist Dixiecrats was an explicit strategy of Richard Nixon.



i have another question :D It used to be that the labour party was considered to be a workers' party with a borgoise leadership (and still is to a extent by some), did any american lefties take a similar stance with the democrats?

yes. the Democratic Socialist Organizing Commmittee of Michael Herrington (predecessor of present day Democratic Socialists of America) believed that it was possible for labor and the left to take over the Dems from within. that never went anywhere. it's only made the Dems take the working class and Left for granted and pursue a pro-capitalist agenda even more rigorously.



i think that liberal here used to mean what it means in america, but there are like two "types" of liberals - like economic and social, and a lot of people here think that if you say dont like war or something it means you're a leftie, and to me a liberal is this really



"economic liberal" in the USA is an ambiguous phrase. it can mean either an advocate of free markets and free trade -- the 19th century meaning -- or it can mean an advocate of government regulation and Keynesian policies of fiscal stimulus.

"social liberal" has probably the same meaning here as in UK. it means people who are against government intrusion in people's private lives, decriminalization of pot and prostititution, laws and policies against racial and sexual discrimination, legalizing gay marriage, etc.

thus the Republican Party is divided between social liberals (called "moderates" sometimes) and social conservatives. in the Democratic Party, many of the economic conservatives are social liberals. the Dem party tends to use social liberalism as a weapon against the social conservative Repubs....but they also use it as a cover for their economic conservatism.

[scourge007]

Anyone that doesn't believe in what the GOP believes in.

[Black Sheep]

try to ignore the subs
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