Italian Situation- videos

[ComradeMan]

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[Ele'ill]

Where is this in relation to where you are?

[ComradeMan]

I'm following the debates here but they are mostly stupid.

The "Black Bloc" are stupid too. I am suspicious of them in particular since that whole Quebec incident.

[Manic Impressive]

Solidarietà con l'Italia

[Ele'ill]

The "Black Bloc" are stupid too. I am suspicious of them in particular since that whole Quebec incident.

Black bloc is a tactic and can be quite useful. What Quebec incident?

[ComradeMan]

Black bloc is a tactic and can be quite useful. What Quebec incident?

They were police agents provocateurs and the Quebec police admitted this in 2007.

The Rome incident was hijacked by them- there were people from Naples protesting about piles of rubbish in the street, people from L'Aquila protesting about the situation for earthquake victims, students about these reforms and all the rest but it degenerated "conveniently" into a riot. The issues were all lost and now the debates are just about denouncing violence and not what happened to cause the situation in the first damn place. It also makes me laugh how some are condemning this from their dubious moral highground... I suppose they would have denounced Garibaldi and the Partisans too.... :rolleyes:

All I am hearing now is fascista, fascista, fascista- comunista, comunista, comunista, mafioso, mafioso, mafioso....

[Ele'ill]

They were police agents provocateurs and the Quebec police admitted this in 2007.

I thought you meant something specific to Quebec.


The Rome incident was hijacked by them- there were people from Naples protesting about piles of rubbish in the street, people from L'Aquila protesting about the situation for earthquake victims, students about these reforms and all the rest but it degenerated "conveniently" into a riot. The issues were all lost and now the debates are just about denouncing violence and not what happened to cause the situation in the first damn place. It also makes me laugh how some are condemning this from their dubious moral highground... I suppose they would have denounced Garibaldi and the Partisans too.... :rolleyes:

That isn't a problem with the black bloc tactic it's a problem with intentionally confrontational behavior and property destruction being used ineffectively. At this point the idea of anarchists dressing in black and burning shit is mainstream enough that if the tactic were no longer used- the police would still use it. I'm pretty sure the police were the original creators of the 'black and mask' look and would have used it anyways had the tactic not been recreated.

[ComradeMan]

That isn't a problem with the black bloc tactic it's a problem with intentionally confrontational behavior and property destruction being used ineffectively. At this point the idea of anarchists dressing in black and burning shit is mainstream enough that if the tactic were no longer used- the police would still use it. I'm pretty sure the police were the original creators of the 'black and mask' look and would have used it anyways had the tactic not been recreated.

But that appears to be the only Black Bloc tactic anyway.

Secondly... who are they? Isn't it just so convenient that they always show up and there's an escalation of violence and this gives the powers that be the "moral highground" to point the figure and thus distract attention from the real issues.

Undisciplined mobs are always doomed to fail- even if they are not agents provocateurs.

[Ele'ill]

But that appears to be the only Black Bloc tactic anyway.

I've marched in a few where there was no property destruction (intentionally). I've also heard of militant tactics working.


Secondly... who are they?Leftists.



Isn't it just so convenient that they always show up and there's an escalation of violenceA large number of the marches I've been in we were already there when the police began to attack- unprovoked.



and this gives the powers that be the "moral highground" to point the figure and thus distract attention from the real issues.They're going to do that anyways- they don't need a 'black bloc' video clip to shift attention away from an issue.


Undisciplined mobs are always doomed to fail- even if they are not agents provocateurs.Disciplined according to who?

[Bud Struggle]

I hope none of this stuff is going on in Sicily! :cool:

[ComradeMan]

I've marched in a few where there was no property destruction (intentionally).

Leftists.

A large number of the marches I've been in we were already there when the police began to attack- unprovoked.

They're going to do that anyways- they don't need a 'black bloc' video clip to shift attention away from an issue.

Disciplined according to who?

1) Okay.

2) I don't believe they are? Who are they? They actually do more harm to the causes than good.

3) No one disputed that.

4) Rome has not seen violence on this level since the Anni di Piombo (Years of Lead) - the 1970s. I was already predicting this a while back, and people said no, it won't happen- now, tonight on TV they are talking about "we're going back to the 1970s"!!! It's more than just a videoclip...

5) Discipline according to who? I don't follow. But just running round like chickens with no heads throwing petards is not any strategy. Without any discipline movements will fail and you only have to look through the pages of history to see example after example.

Remember this is Italy, people have been doing this sort of thing for at least 2,500 years.... :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

Secondly... who are they? Isn't it just so convenient that they always show up and there's an escalation of violence and this gives the powers that be the "moral highground" to point the figure and thus distract attention from the real issues.

"Recreational" Anarchism! :D

[ComradeMan]

Omnium primum avidum novae libertatis populum, ne postmodum flecti precibus aut donis regiis posset, jurejurando adegit, neminem Romae passuros regnare. Compulit ad decernendum addito juramento, fore ut non permitterent quenquam in posterum Romae regem esse.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTglro7y7bamHKeoRj4f1Z4Uchsj6pmp 498HGIZT2ugCGXbkqKX

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

1) This one's far too big to have been the work of police infiltrators. I can identify a number of the locations in the video, and we're talking about a huge area in the center of Rome.

2) The point that I made in a previous post, - that a number of the demonstrators were lower-income kids from the periphery - is borne out by one of the comments on one of the videos. These kids aren't exactly middle-class students doing leftist calisthenics ("And a-one! and a-two! And UP with those fists!").

3) Unfortunately, you can't always get the demonstrators you want. You want to blame these guys for being "politically incorrect" or "not following the party line?" They don't give a fuck. That's what happens when revolutions start. Deal.

On a less somber note, I loved the part where the gentleman in the houndstooth coat is trying to cross the Corso in front of the Palazzo Madama, and one of the tough kids comes over and helps him cross safely. Gosh, Italians have style.

[ComradeMan]

1) This one's far too big to have been the work of police infiltrators. I can identify a number of the locations in the video, and we're talking about a huge area in the center of Rome.

2) The point that I made in a previous post, - that a number of the demonstrators were lower-income kids from the periphery - is borne out by one of the comments on one of the videos. These kids aren't exactly middle-class students doing leftist calisthenics ("And a-one! and a-two! And UP with those fists!").

3) Unfortunately, you can't always get the demonstrators you want. You want to blame these guys for being "politically incorrect" or "not following the party line?" They don't give a fuck. That's what happens when revolutions start. Deal.

On a less somber note, I loved the part where the gentleman in the houndstooth coat is trying to cross the Corso in front of the Palazzo Madama, and one of the tough kids comes over and helps him cross safely. Gosh, Italians have style.

There were protestors all over Rome the other day, from Naples, from Abruzzo as well- it wasn't just about the students.

3) You don't seem to understand what goes on here. I am watching a documentary know that is talking about how the Italian state may have collaborated with neo-fascists in the 1970s- who then posed as and infilitrated ultra-left groups in order to commit attacks that discredited the left. Ever heard of Operation Gladio? It's all too complicated.

Revolutions, by the way, successful ones at least, do not really start with a disorganised mob.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

attacks that discredited the left.

Revolutions, by the way, successful ones at least, do not really start with a disorganised mob.

You really want to discuss that last point? Okay, let's start with the French Revolution - which just happens to be the area of my doctoral dissertation. You are aware, no doubt, of the letter a certain Nicolas, soon to be Gracchus, Babeuf, wrote back home on July 23, 1789, after witnessing the heads of two royal functionaries paraded on pikes, yes?

Quite frankly, if your main worry here is whether these attacks "discredit the left," I would strongly suggest your priorities may be a little, uh, bureaucratic.

PS - thanks to the comrade for posting that beautiful bust of Brutus from the Capitoline Museum. There was a similar bust in the French Convention hall during the Revolution.

[ComradeMan]

You really want to discuss that last point? Okay, let's start with the French Revolution - which just happens to be the area of my doctoral dissertation. You are aware, no doubt, of the letter a certain Nicolas, soon to be Gracchus, Babeuf, wrote back home on July 23, 1789, after witnessing the heads of two royal functionaries paraded on pikes, yes?

And? The French Revolution resulted in what? Anarchy and a strong man took over.. a Corsican-Italian if I seem to recall.


Quite frankly, if your main worry here is whether these attacks "discredit the left," I would strongly suggest your priorities may be a little, uh, bureaucratic.

The left is at an all time low in this country, the real left at least. Secondly these kinds of actions don't win people over, they alienate people. Thirdly, they have achieved nothing but moral indignation etc. They have succeeded in obscuring the real issues. I don't think they are productive.



PS - thanks to the comrade for posting that beautiful bust of Brutus from the Capitoline Museum. There was a similar bust in the French Convention hall during the Revolution.

You're welcome.... romanus sum!!! ;) Of course let us also not forget the noble Gracchi....

http://www.the-romans.co.uk/gallery2/full/republic10.jpg

[Red Commissar]

I wonder if Berlusconi will die like President Felix Faure of France did. I don't know, it just seems at this rate it'll be the only way he'll disappear.

[Ele'ill]

1)
2) I don't believe they are? Who are they?

Repto-men






They actually do more harm to the causes than good.

Sometimes, sure. There are times when various tactics don't work.





4) Rome has not seen violence on this level since the Anni di Piombo (Years of Lead) - the 1970s. I was already predicting this a while back, and people said no, it won't happen- now, tonight on TV they are talking about "we're going back to the 1970s"!!! It's more than just a videoclip...

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.


5) Discipline according to who? I don't follow. But just running round like chickens with no heads throwing petards is not any strategy.

Who decides the details of what 'disciplined' is?




Without any discipline movements will fail and you only have to look through the pages of history to see example after example.

Discipline in regards to what?

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I wonder if Berlusconi will die like President Felix Faure of France did. I don't know, it just seems at this rate it'll be the only way he'll disappear.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[JustMovement]

this was inevitable. the violence did not erupt spontaneously, but when it emerged that the berlusconi government did not fall by three votes. it was not agents provocateurs, this is unsustainable. there is open talks of votes being bought to pay for mortages. the country is being held hostage by the megalomania of one man. the problem is there are little available alternatives.

[ComradeMan]

Gosh, Italians have style.

Re helping the elderly person over the road in the middle of a shitstorm- there's hope for humanity yet! ;)

Today there is more hell because the protestors who were arrested have been sent home so the government is accusing the
magistrature as usual.

Here's a video I found about the 1970s

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[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Re: the use of provos, there's the much more recent events in France this year, where it became transparently obvious that the Gov't was using provos: all carefully, staged, and then there was the embarrassing situation where a protester tried to stop a masked "anarchist" from breaking a window and got jumped by a bunch of undercover cops; the protester almost got charged with interfering with a policeman.

Funny thing is, it turned out that not that many people were bothered by the idea of someone breaking bank windows and so forth - as a friend of mine who lives in a tough banlieue put it, "so burn my car, that's why I've got insurance." Something tells me that the reaction of Italians is not necessarily what the RAI thinks it should be...;)

[ComradeMan]

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