CrimethInc

[Sosa]

Some people love 'em other's hate 'em...what do you all think of them?


http://www.crimethinc.com/

[Niccolò Rossi]

CrimethInc are boring as fuck.

Nic.

[The Douche]

I think some of their stuff is ok, some of it is pretty cool, some of it is really shitty.

[Sosa]

I think some of their stuff is ok, some of it is pretty cool, some of it is really shitty.

Like what? could you elaborate? I don't know anything about them, just kinda stumbled on their website by chance a few days ago.

[Magón]

Like what? could you elaborate? I don't know anything about them, just kinda stumbled on their website by chance a few days ago.

They have some interesting reads and stuff, but really they're no different than any other Anarchist or Free Commune idea out there. Just look at their FAQ page.

[The Douche]

Fighting for our lives is ok, rolling thunder usually has a good article or two, recipies for disaster is a handy tool, evasion is boring, their critique of insurrectionary anarchism was terrible, "your politics are boring as fuck" was ok, most of their propaganda is pretty useable.

[JazzRemington]

I lost what little respect I had for them when they printed that super special edition of Days of War Nights of Love. Even before then, they were 90% lawlful.

[Tablo]

They suck. They are stupid lifestylists with shitty books and no real understanding of left wing politics.

[The Douche]

They suck. They are stupid lifestylists with shitty books and no real understanding of left wing politics.

Please, tell me, what exactly is this boogeyman known as "lifestylism"?

[black magick hustla]

arent they out of fashion anyway the internetz used to be crazy about the C-T

[Tablo]

Please, tell me, what exactly is this boogeyman known as "lifestylism"?
Lifestylism is not a boogeyman, but crimethinc tries to present it as if it has some level of revolutionary potential, which it does not.

[The Douche]

Lifestylism is not a boogeyman, but crimethinc tries to present it as if it has some level of revolutionary potential, which it does not.

Remember that time I asked you to tell me what exactly lifestyleism is?:thumbup1:

[Tablo]

Remember that time I asked you to tell me what exactly lifestyleism is?:thumbup1:
Lol, when was that? Like 2009? :lol:

[The Douche]

Nah son, like, right hereish:


Please, tell me, what exactly is this boogeyman known as "lifestylism"?

;)

[synthesis]

I always considered "lifestylism" to be the proposition, implicit or explicit, that substantive change can be achieved by the way in which one lives one's life rather than by political organization and overt class struggle. I've never read crimethinc, though, so I'm not sure if it applies here.

[Summerspeaker]

Some of their material does promote the absurd notion that dropping out of the system by eating from dumpsters and sleeping on the street will somehow produce revolution. Personally, though, I'll take whatever I can get.

[Tablo]

Nah son, like, right hereish:



;)
Lol, dropping out of society, eating out of dumpsters, shoplifting, and being an urban nomad.

[Pierre.Laporte]

Some of their propaganda is good. I use it sometimes (stickers and posters).

Other than that I really don't find much substance in them. "Go eat out of dumpsters, drop out of high school" isn't left wing politics at all. It's just being a punk.

[Ovi]

Lifestyle anarchists advocate personal changes of lifestyle at the expense of class struggle. Anyway, they're not any worse than anarchists who aren't active at all.

[ellipsis]

arent they out of fashion anyway the internetz used to be crazy about the C-T

I was just thinking "wow i haven't seen a crimethinc flamewar thread in a while". I like their propaganda and some of their lit, recipes for disaster. I also like dumpstering and freeganism but don't see it as a substitute for other political activities or hold the illusion that it actually strikes a blow against capitalism in a tangible war, i.e. that freeganism can lead to revolution.

[bcbm]

oh good, another topic we can rehash the same two or three points into infinity about

[synthesis]

oh good, another topic we can rehash the same two or three points into infinity about

Isn't that the entire point of the Learning forum?

[bcbm]

doesn't sound a lot like "learning" to me

[synthesis]

I guess my point was that it's not "rehashing" if you've never seen it before. I don't think "rehashing the same two or three points" is really that bad as long as everything is said that needs to be said, which admittedly is not a given here.

[The Douche]

I would like somebody to find something from crimethinc where they say that dropping out is the way to revolution.

[Quail]

I picked up a pamphlet called "Anarchy and Alcohol" at the London bookfair which gave me the brilliant word "anarchaholism" but other than that was pretty much a load of shite.

[The Douche]

I picked up a pamphlet called "Anarchy and Alcohol" at the London bookfair which gave me the brilliant word "anarchaholism" but other than that was pretty much a load of shite.

I remember a time when anarchy was fun.

[Widerstand]

I would like somebody to find something from crimethinc where they say that dropping out is the way to revolution.

There is none, and the whole point about "Crimethinc only promotes dumpster diving" is bullshit. I'd guess most that say it are pretty much repeating what a friend who knows someone who knows someone who once read a Crimethinc book has said.

For example, Expect Resistance talks about and describes wide range of activities from setting off fire alarms in support of campus occupations, making allies with campus workers, lawsuit support and documentation at demos, to terrorism and cutting power lines for entire city blocks to create confusion.

The whole lifestylistm debate is even more bullshit, seeing how squatting or dumpster diving are more political than selling newspapers, reading Das Kapital, fapping about Maoist guerrillas, fapping about the EZLN, or whatever else passes as "political activity" these days.


I remember a time when anarchy was fun.

SERIOUS POLITICS DUDE

[The Douche]

There is none, and the whole point about "Crimethinc only promotes dumpster diving" is bullshit. I'd guess most that say it are pretty much repeating what a friend who knows someone who knows someone who once read a Crimethinc book has said.

This right here.

I used to parrot that line to, and harp on about how anarchism isn't a serious threat to the bourgeois order "because of lifestylists".

The fact is, almost nobody thinks everybody in the world will drop out, dropping out, when it is advocated, is promoted as a way to figure yourself out, inspire yourself, give yourself faith, and learn new things.

[ellipsis]

oh good, another topic we can rehash the same two or three points into infinity about

How about anarcho-primitivists in Crimethinc? Also how should I download music from the internets?

Also people who hate on dumpstering have no idea how good it can treat you.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Some of their less specific propaganda is very striking, the designs are cool.

Apart from this their organisation has no credibility or worth. They once launched a tirade against alcohol, "revolutionaries should be restrained" sorta thing. As a whole they are really lifestylist, there whole idea is we can't change anything unless we adopt vision of life within Capitalism, which apart from being pointless actually distances them from the class struggle movement. They're worthless.

[ellipsis]

which apart from being pointless actually distances them from the class struggle movement.

How is that pointless and how does it distance themselves from the class struggle movement?

[Quail]

They once launched a tirade against alcohol, "revolutionaries should be restrained" sorta thing.
Yeah, I picked up the pamphlet for that I think. I'm an "anarchaholic" according to them :lol:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

How is that pointless and how does it distance themselves from the class struggle movement?

Because it's a tactic which doesn't emphasise the important aspects of building a workers movement: workplace organisation and community work. Because the emphasis is on adopting a new lifestyle rather than these things. Dumpster diving, stopping watching TV and stopping drinking are not requirements of a revolutionary.

[Widerstand]

Because it's a tactic which doesn't emphasise the important aspects of building a workers movement: workplace organisation and community work. Because the emphasis is on adopting a new lifestyle rather than these things. Dumpster diving, stopping watching TV and stopping drinking are not requirements of a revolutionary.

But Crimethinc and "lifestylists" in general talk a whole fucking lot about community work, what are you on about?

[The Douche]

Because it's a tactic which doesn't emphasise the important aspects of building a workers movement: workplace organisation and community work. Because the emphasis is on adopting a new lifestyle rather than these things. Dumpster diving, stopping watching TV and stopping drinking are not requirements of a revolutionary.

In rolling thunder number 2 for instance there is a lengthy write up on one crimethincers experience doing rank and file union work and leading a wildcat strike. It also contains a lengthy analysis on the pros and cons of dropping out.



Apart from this their organisation has no credibility or worth.

And this statement demonstrates how you have no credibility in this matter. In absolutely no way is crimethinc an organization, they are, most accurately, a publishing house.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

But Crimethinc and "lifestylists" in general talk a whole fucking lot about community work, what are you on about?

I haven't heard of this. I've looked at most of their texts.

EDIT: I did not see this, fair enough, even if it doesn't represent my idea of community work they still talk about it.


The creation of subcultural ghettos, the reinterpretation of subversive acts as promotions of some alternative lifestyle—these are processes by which opposition and subversion have been repeatedly neutralized over the past four decades, if not centuries. Yes, it is critical that we build new communities, with new cultural values and approaches, and that we not belittle these as “mere subcultures” when they do arise—for it is in these communities that we can develop and sustain a resistance, and create a context in which to lead free lives. It is also critical that we keep challenging these communities, that they do not become stagnant or self-satisfied: for as long as we are all under the great thumb, freedom is always for all or none.


In rolling thunder number 2 for instance there is a lengthy write up on one crimethincers experience doing rank and file union work and leading a wildcat strike. It also contains a lengthy analysis on the pros and cons of dropping out.

The call themselves "ex-worker" .



And this statement demonstrates how you have no credibility in this matter. In absolutely no way is crimethinc an organization, they are, most accurately, a publishing house.

Isn't a publishing house, a coherent "collective" (in their words) all with the same ideas about what is being published, an organisation?

[Widerstand]

I haven't heard of this. I've looked at most of their texts.

It's definitely in Expect Resistance, and I'd imagine it's in other texts as well, but I'm no expert of CrimethInc. bibliography.

Many of what are called "lifestylists" advocate community work though, for example guerrilla gardening, collective living, food not bombs, drug help, etc.



The call themselves "ex-worker" .

No they don't. The CrimethInc. Ex-Workers Collective is only one part of CrimethInc. There are cells that didn't use that part of the name.



Isn't a publishing house, a coherent "collective" (in their words) all with the same ideas about what is being published, an organisation?

Everyone that identifies as CrimethInc. can use the name. It's not an organization. The website (and publishing house) are in fact run by the Ex-Workers Collective, though.

[ellipsis]

Isn't a publishing house, a coherent "collective" (in their words) all with the same ideas about what is being published, an organisation?

No, they aren't that coherent!:D

But seriously, i don't know too much about their structure or lack thereor, but i would assume they don't all have the same ideas about anything, rather that all text shares some "points of unity/affinity". it is most likely "organized" as a collection of autonomous actors with some "core" members who take care of responsibilities. Yes it is a publishing collective, and crimthinc as a group doesn't do anything beyond publishing and general agit-prop.

Also be cowards when their convention is protested by militant people of color.

Edit: thanks for clearing some of that up see-money.

[The Douche]

The call themselves "ex-worker" .

And I call myself "anti-work".


Isn't a publishing house, a coherent "collective" (in their words) all with the same ideas about what is being published, an organisation?

They don't all have to agree with what is published other than agreeing that it should be published. I don't particularly agree with most of your politics but that doesn't mean I don't think you're an anarchist. They are contributing to the anarchist dialogue, hence they have some people who say "you need to drop out", some who say "you ought to drop out" and some who say "what good is dropping out?", and they'll all be published in the same text.

[The Douche]

Also be cowards when their convention is protested by militant people of color.

Sadly, if they had defended themselves from those assholes, lots of people on the left would have screamed about racism.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

And I call myself "anti-work".

What does that mean?


They don't all have to agree with what is published other than agreeing that it should be published. I don't particularly agree with most of your politics but that doesn't mean I don't think you're an anarchist.

Really? Try me.

[The Douche]

What does that mean?

It means I am against work, I am against alienated labor. check out these:

http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html
http://zinelibrary.info/armed-joy (this one is better, but the two should both be read for a good understanding of what I mean)


Really? Try me.

I don't want to take this thread off track, but I am wholly opposed to union work as being revolutionary.

[ellipsis]

Sadly, if they had defended themselves from those assholes, lots of people on the left would have screamed about racism.

Well, im not talking about a beat down but taking care of it/not letting it disrupt the event, having security at the door, the report i read just made Crimethinc look like ill-prepared, cowardly amateurs at that event in Pittsburgh.

[gorillafuck]

They're uninteresting and write stupid (yet sometimes unintentionally funny) articles. That's basically it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

They're old news.

I'm really suprised that no one has posted the anarkismo rebuke article by now. :rolleyes:

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

What really appeals to me about CrimethInc. is their general trajectory: Their earliest publications were pretty crap - and probably the origin of a lot of the anti-CrimethInc. "middle-class dumpster divers" type accusations. At the same time, it was a point where a new North American anarchists were just begining to find each other, to begin organizing themselves, and developing as a force autonomous of "the left" and the antiglobalization/antiwar movements. As our concrete experience has grown, so has CrimethInc. - Fighting on The New Terrain, Expect Resistance, and the last few issues of Rolling Thunder have been, in my opinion, pretty fantastic (or, even at their low points, not an embarassment a la Evasion).
So, sure, they're not perfect, but I think that they are one of a limited number of popular anarchist projects that actually reflect a lot of what is happening on the front lines here - from theory (including adding relevant material to in-vogue discussions, like their articles on Os Cangeceros) to actions (I mean, like, covering them, and actually being there).

I also feel like it's nice to be able point to something of a non-exclusive middleground in the North American anarchist whatever between Fire To The Prisons/"Mass-graves-for-cops-right-now!", Food Not Bombs-y hippie-shit, and old-guard-NEFAC-y type stuff. I mean, I like that when I'm reading CrimethInc. I don't feel pressured to make a hard choice between any one of the three.

[black magick hustla]

i read days of war nights of love and there was a lot of harping about the animal proletariat and bourgeois deodorants

[Ele'ill]

A lot of nervous one liners in here. I don't mind crimethInc.

[gorillafuck]

i read days of war nights of love and there was a lot of harping about the animal proletariat and bourgeois deodorants
Lol, I remember that.

A pretty amusing article about that: http://blackcatnh.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/in-defense-of-deodorant-a-crimethinc-critique-by-john-d/

[Amphictyonis]

Raegan Butcher's Stone Hotel was a good read. Nothing to do with anarchism per say. http://www.crimethinc.com/books/sh/Stone_Hotel_hi.pdf

[Agnapostate]

CrimeThinc, and lifestylist tendencies in general, aren't necessarily antithetical to anarchist social movements, but serve as a hindrance to the extent that they reinforce popular stereotypes, when their energy expenditures could be based on making common appeals to people of various walks of life instead of a specific subculture.

[Omi]

Their stuff is way different and pretty diverse, I think people are a bit to easy in making bold statements about everything that crimethinc has ever done. I mean, yes some of their publications are utter garbage, but other publications are pretty informative. Recipies for Disaster is a really handy book. That, and people can learn a thing or two from the overall design of many crimethinc. publications. They usually have great designs.

[black magick hustla]

i like crimethinc because its a hub for angry awkard teens and awkward teen fuckups are the vanguard of the future but people need to move on about that shit

[The Douche]

Lifestylism does not exist, and if it does, it is certainly not embodied in groups like crimethinc.

[synthesis]

Lifestylism does not exist, and if it does, it is certainly not embodied in groups like crimethinc.

"Lifestylist" is kind of like the term "troll" to me. It can be a valid criticism if used accurately, but it is overused and very vague in its general application.

[Ele'ill]

but people need to move on about that shit

and into the ever more prestigious adult realm of angry self-described intellectuals and mechanized sectarian battle trolls.

[synthesis]

angry self-described intellectuals

You should be banned for revealing my personal information.

[StalinFanboy]

It means I am against work, I am against alienated labor. check out these:

http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html
http://zinelibrary.info/armed-joy (this one is better, but the two should both be read for a good understanding of what I mean)



and dis

http://www.prole.info/texts/workornot.html

[griffjam]

Crimethinc is not about living out of dumpsters.

Can we retire this dumbass strawman argument once and for all?

Crimethinc is, in part, a publisher? Evasion is just a book published by the Salem Crimethinc. It isn't a doctrinal statement and I suspect that Crimethinc folks would laugh at any suggestion that they are being ideological.

People might want to read what bell hooks wrote about dropping out in her book Class Matters. She argued that dropping out provides an alternative to young people and creates friction in the system.
Young people have been dropping out and have had their subcultures for a long time before Crimethinc came along. What's really behind much of the Crimethinc bashing is an organized campaign by a few dogmatic anarchists to attack and denigrate any kind of anarchism that doesn't toe their party line. The fact that these same people attack other anarchists constantly illustrates where the root of this problem lies. It's one thing to engage in principled criticism of a project, quite another to project everything you hate about people onto a group which really doesn't have that kind of power.
And people just hate projects that are successful.

NEFAC started out as an anarcho-communist organization and then some of its members started pushing it into a platformist direction. Is there a contradiction between anarcho-communism and platformism? I think that most anarchists and anarcho-communists would say that there is a contradiction, as platformism is modelled on authoritarian communism. Just look at the history of platformism, including the covert takeover of the French Anarchist Federation in the mid 20th century, which led to a purge of platformists and the adoption of an anti-platformist policy.

Leaving aside the history of platformism, how does NEFAC express its politics these days? I think most people would agree that NEFAC comes across as more sectarian against other anarchists. It is more interested in promoting a "correct line" for all anarchists instead of just for their own organization. Any effort to promote a "correct line" in the anarchist movement runs counter to the open-mindedness of anarchism and its hostility towards intellectual rigidity. Some NEFAC members have been in active in sectarian debates against what they see as "un-anarchist" tendencies in anarchism, including primitivism, post-left anarchism and Crimethinc. They dismiss lifestylism in the movement, which they see as all anarchists who don't follow their narrow platformist line, in other words, 99% of all anarchists including anarcho-communists, who probably want no part of promoting leftist politics within anarchism.

If you are going to shit-talk anarchists and anarchist projects, please go to Myspace and do it on Rupert Murdoch's dime. The capitalists will thank you for your asinine sectarianism.

Whenever Crimethinc is brought up someone always links to a 4 year old, rambling critique, that was already woefully outdated and mis-informed when it was ‘published.’
That article was puerile and dishonest; it misrepresents in the worst way, and it reflects poorly on that entire milieu that it has been circulated so widely. Apparently there is a crowd that needs a straw-man enemy within anarchism more than they need to understand their anarchist comrades. So long as they behave that way, they can hardly be comrades
.
Now, it’s no one's job to read everything crimthinc publishes, but it would be cool if people would critique, say, the past 8 years of their efforts rather than the first 8.

[Ele'ill]

You should be banned for revealing my personal information.

You should get something for your avatar :lol:

[syndicat]

I've read a couple issues of their journal, which is well made. but they lack a concept of how a transition to libertarian socialism is going to happen. in other words, they don't really have a revolutionary strategy, as far as I can see. they talk as if they are thinking only in terms of what a very small milieu of people are going to do or might do. so they aren't thinking of a process of mass self-emancipation by the working class. they don't seem to have, or make use, of the distinction between what activists who have an explicit revolutionary set of ideas do, and what organizations do that are brought together by people simply to fight the boss, the landlord, or polluters. so i'd say their focus is way too narrow and is lacking in some basic things.


NEFAC started out as an anarcho-communist organization and then some of its members started pushing it into a platformist direction. p

Well, i'm not a member of NEFAC but I believe it was always a platformist organization from the beginning.



Is there a contradiction between anarcho-communism and platformism? I think that most anarchists and anarcho-communists would say that there is a contradiction, as platformism is modelled on authoritarian communism.


Have you done a survey? Can we see the results? In reality it is false and highly sectarian to claim that platformism is "modelled on authoritarian communism". I say this even tho I do not identify as a "platformist" myself and don't care to make a fetish of a particular paper written in 1926.



Just look at the history of platformism, including the covert takeover of the French Anarchist Federation in the mid 20th century, which led to a purge of platformists and the adoption of an anti-platformist policy.

what this tells us is that there was a disagreement among the French anarchists. this does not show that platformism is "based on authoritarian communism."

I've always believed that an organization can only be effective if it is capable of making collective decisions and actually sticking to them. This means it must have a way of making people accountable, to ensure they do what they say they are going to do. A policy of "anything goes" or "let anyone do their own thing" will only lead to an "organization" that can't accomplish anything. This has been my experience. I think platformism is motivated by a desire to have a movement that is more effective and accountable to its members.



Leaving aside the history of platformism, how does NEFAC express its politics these days? I think most people would agree that NEFAC comes across as more sectarian against other anarchists. It is more interested in promoting a "correct line" for all anarchists instead of just for their own organization.

what does this mean? in other words, what exactly are you objecting to? that they have an organization that is built on a shared understanding of social reality and the main things we need to do as a political movement? I think that it's essential to think these things through. I belong to Workers Solidarity Alliance which has never been "platformist" but we also have spent time, based on our experience and discussions, developing a political perspective to guide our work and to express our critique of the present system and the various aspects of oppresion and lay out our strategy for social change.

there is a long history of various anarchist organizations doing this.



Any effort to promote a "correct line" in the anarchist movement runs counter to the open-mindedness of anarchism and its hostility towards intellectual rigidity.

Let me try to translate this: You're basically saying any attempt to build an organization that has an actual collective political perspective and tries to work together on that basis is somehow "repressive" of the people who don't belong to that organization? That's truly a very far-fetched claim.



Some NEFAC members have been in active in sectarian debates against what they see as "un-anarchist" tendencies in anarchism, including primitivism, post-left anarchism and Crimethinc. They dismiss lifestylism in the movement, which they see as all anarchists who don't follow their narrow platformist line, in other words, 99% of all anarchists including anarcho-communists, who probably want no part of promoting leftist politics within anarchism.

so let me translate this: anyone who disagrees with someone who calls him or her self an "anarchist" is therefore "sectarian". in fact this strikes me as a form of anti-intellectualism and what we might call "repressive liberalism". if you don't agree with an "anything goes" extreme individualism you're "sectarian". and any disagreement with other "anarchists" is "shit-talking", according to you. and even tho we're supposed to be a libertarian socialist, anti-capitalist movement, we're somehow not "leftist"?

the reality is that your comments here are quite sectarian.

[Joe Payne]

all platformism means to many of us is that if you don't agree with someone on strategy, then you probably shouldn't be in the same group. That's all. The movement can have many strategies, many organizational types. But the only way any group can be effective in carying out a strategy is if they agree. Multiple groups allows greater fluidity of action. NEFAC can do its thing, Crimethinc can do its thing, etc. etc. Many of us also like crimethinc or came to anarchism through crimethinc, so there's no nessecary gulf between NEFAC or other groups.

the many tendencies of the movement can come together via general assemblies, where they all autonomously participate.

also the platform came out of libertarian communism not authoritarian communism. It's purpose was to tackle the question of stopping the latter.

Many current members of NEFAC partcicpate in many different projects, are engaged with diferent anarchists and libertarian socialists, and generally applaud all action and organizing of the entire libertarian socialist/anarchist movement. We believe in a diversity of strategy and tactics. Think of it like a rainbow, I guess. A rainbow of anarchy and communism

[Widerstand]

Let me try to translate this: You're basically saying any attempt to build an organization that has an actual collective political perspective and tries to work together on that basis is somehow "repressive" of the people who don't belong to that organization? That's truly a very far-fetched claim.

Do I get this right that you say the notion that there is such a thing as a "correct line" of Anarchism (which necessarily means that all other lines must be wrong) is a requirement for building "an organization that has an actual collective political perspective?"

[syndicat]

Do I get this right that you say the notion that there is such a thing as a "correct line" of Anarchism (which necessarily means that all other lines must be wrong) is a requirement for building "an organization that has an actual collective political perspective?"

I didn't say that my organization "has the correct line". I didn't use that phrase so you'll have to direct your question elsewhere.

evidence for whether a perspective is justified or accurate is based on putting that perspective into practice and/or through observation of reality and discussion. it's necessary to be open to changing what you say or what you emphasize if evidence leads you in that direction.

but collective practice presupposes having a common understanding. it presupposes working to a common understanding and being accountable to the group.

if you think WSA's perspective is mistaken, or NEFAC's is, the appropriate response is to come up with an argument, reasons, as to why you think that. but if you say it's not necessary or useful for the movement to have libertarian political organizations with a collective perspective and democratic, accountable practice, that is a viewpoint I would disagree with.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I heard that at the crimethinc convergence in Pitsburgh, PA some people from A.P.O.C. had some sort of feud with the crimethinc kids about racial insensitivities.

[ellipsis]

I heard that at the crimethinc convergence in Pitsburgh, PA some people from A.P.O.C. had some sort of feud with the crimethinc kids about racial insensitivities.

Yah thats what I was refering to when I called them cowards. Not to invalidate APOC's actions, I was simply saying if that was my (theorhetical) crew, I wouldn't have had such lack security that anybody could crash my convergence. Not that any of their literature that I have seen talks about organizational discipline, small unit tactics(esp. the importance of observation posts in this case), armed self-determination, etc. But still I was surprised.

Their feud was really about the convergence contributing to gentrification of the area, originally at least, IIRC.

[Widerstand]

Their feud was really about the convergence contributing to gentrification of the area, originally at least, IIRC.

Weehee! Selfhating radical syndroms.

Oh gee. Do they also protest LBGT centers, groups or events? Because, you know, the "Gay Index" is a major gentrification factor.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Problems brought to the forefront following "Smack A White Boy Part II" at the CrimethInc. convergence in Philly:

1. White supremacist attitudes within CrimethInc.
2. White guilt in CrimethInc.
3. Writing the many people of colour in CrimethInc. out of existence.

Conclusion:
Smack a white racist.
Smack a POC who is full of shit.
Smack both of the aforementioned again if you're a POC and a CrimethInc.-er.

[Widerstand]

1. White supremacist attitudes within CrimethInc.

Such as?



2. White guilt in CrimethInc.

How is that
a) smack worthy
b) making any sense considering 1.?


3. Writing the many people of colour in CrimethInc. out of existence.


As done where?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Such [white supremacist attitudes within CrimethInc.] as?

Read the "Smack A White Boy Part Two" communique: On one hand, some of it is total bullshit, but, on the other, some of it is totally legit.

"race doesn't matter" -white attendee


How is [White guilt in CrimethInc.]
a) smack worthy
b) making any sense considering 1.?

a) I think that letting an entire conference be shut down by a few morons trying to speak for all APOC is totally smack-worthy. They should have smacked the self-righteous motherfuckers.
b) That white-supremacist attitudes and white-guilt co-exist should totally be a "No duh!" thing - even in terms of individuals, let alone an entire conference.


As done where?

Have you read any of the responses to this shit?

I mean, I'm not talking about this thread, but generally.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Speaking of which, there is some excellent response from some POC CrimethInc.-ers here (http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/8912).
It's kinda weird that in this whole CrimethInc. thread, there hasn't been much in terms of links . . . .

[black magick hustla]

and into the ever more prestigious adult realm of angry self-described intellectuals and mechanized sectarian battle trolls.
fuck no. but outside the realm of smelly crustlord rage, or smelly anarcho hobbo, or whatever, roles that have been recuperated by the market. fuck cultural ghettoes, and crimethinc stinks of cultural ghetto

[black magick hustla]

also crimethinc is made of spineless cowards if they let 6 kids fuck up a convergence of 100 ppl

[bcbm]

oh god not the apoc thing again

[ellipsis]

oh god not the apoc thing again

I know, it was a flame war a year ago or whatever. Now I've provoked it again.

[Amphictyonis]

Crimethink should be banned and forced to confess. CATO and the heritage foundation be where it's at- groups of nice clean cut christian conformist cologne wearing patriotic young white Americans who are living the dream :)

[synthesis]

Weehee! Selfhating radical syndroms.

Oh gee. Do they also protest LBGT centers, groups or events? Because, you know, the "Gay Index" is a major gentrification factor.

How is opposing gentrification a symptom of being a self-hating radical? If I was a "radical" who contributed to gentrification I would probably hate myself too. "But this neighborhood has so much culture..."

[Widerstand]

How is opposing gentrification a symptom of being a self-hating radical? If I was a "radical" who contributed to gentrification I would probably hate myself too. "But this neighborhood has so much culture..."

Trust me, it happens a lot where I live, because basically all the radical gathering places also function as either concert and party space, arts space (exhibitions / ateliers), or simply a place for various discussions and informational events to be had. This is a major contribution in gentrifying a neighborhood.

Now you can be a self-hating radical and practically abolish yourself to stop your contribution to gentrification. The thing is, you don't even have to be a radical. You can be a random sprayer (not tagger), precarious artist, the owner of a trendy underground club, someone squatting concert place, someone who painted their house's walls in a fancy manner, a street musician, some sort of bohemian, students (not the rich ones), etc.

What all of these have in common is that they will inevitably act as pioneers (enhancing the atmosphere of their neighborhood). Being self hating about it doesn't change that fact. You're not fighting gentrification by opposing your own presence, if that was the way to fight it, we would all have to move to small towns or disperse ad infinity. Gentrification is opposing the pioneers' presence. All the types of pioneers are usually amongst the first to be hit by gentrification, along with low-income workers and migrants (both of which often also add to the "hip flair" of a neighborhood).

The two things you can really do are either active political struggle, on all fronts (opposing BIDs and PPPs, fighting the building of anchor stores, fighting against unfair contract termination, fighting against rent raises), and maybe even with realpolitical goals (having a low maximum rent halts or slows down gentrification at least), or moving activities to already gentrified neighborhoods (although this may prove very difficult). You can of course also try to actively devalue your neighborhood, for example this:

A1L3iFwJ7yk

The point about self-hating radicals remains however. Dropping out of gentrification doesn't stop it, just like dropping out of capitalism doesn't end it, and indeed both are equally utopian plans.

PS: My question about LBGT groups/events/centers remains though. Do or do not the APOC attack these?

[ellipsis]

Trust me, it happens a lot where I live, because basically all the radical gathering places also function as either concert and party space, arts space (exhibitions / ateliers), or simply a place for various discussions and informational events to be had. This is a major contribution in gentrifying a neighborhood.

I would say that greedy land/property developers and small businesses are likely the cause of gentrification.

I don't make much money, so I always look for the lowest possible rent. As a consequence I always live in "bad" parts of town or "bad" buildings. I always work manual labor or service industry jobs. Does this make me a gentrifier?

Does the fact that I dumpster dive, often time pulling out food or blankets which I either give directly to homeless people or funnel to Food not Bombs, make me more or less of a gentrifier?

Just watched that funny and interesting video, but now that i have a window garden i fear that it will cause property values to go up.

[Widerstand]

I would say that greedy land/property developers and small businesses are likely the cause of gentrification.

No. Gentrification cannot be reduced to a single part of it's chain of effects, which is roughly the following: Pioneers (students, "cool/hip people", artists, bohemians, culture centers, etc.) enter a cheap neighborhood because the can't afford to live elsewhere (in some cases of municipally engineered gentrification they are given financial incentives to live in certain areas). The neighborhood gets more "flair", it becomes "hip". The value of property in these areas rises. What happens next is the take over of the formerly poor, low income area by high income investors, business, companies and, of course, rich people living there, very often yuppies. This can happen in a variety of ways, but often it comes along with rents rising, landlords throwing out their old clients, buildings being demolished, new "landmark" projects (big malls, expensive housing, expensive cultural stuff) being built. For example, in Hamburg Altona, this is currently underway, both through an Anchor Store (a large, well-known shop, in this case IKEA, that is assumed to generate traffic in the neighborhood) and through an extensive project that seeks to replace the train station with a mix of parks, housing, gastronomy, services and office spaces for rich ppl.

The pioneers have long moved to other cheap neighborhoods far from the city center, where the gentrification machinery starts again.



Just watched that funny and interesting video, but now that i have a window garden i fear that it will cause property values to go up.

You need more wifebeaters XD

[The Douche]

Fuck APOC.

[Amphictyonis]

And then after the APOC people booted the crimethinc people the crimethinc people went and beat up the Bay Area National Anarchists and the BANA people went and beat on their little sisters and their little sisters kicked the dog.

It sounds like the APOC and BANA have a lot in common."Anarchist" segregation?

[Diello]

You need more wifebeaters XD

Comrades! It is our social responsibility to halt the process of gentrification by going outside and having drunken, half-naked Jerry Springer fights!

[Desperado]

They once launched a tirade against alcohol, "revolutionaries should be restrained" sorta thing.

Umm, no they didn't. The article called on revolutionaries to be intoxicated, but without alcohol as the route to this intoxication. There is nothing about being "restrained".


Do not misunderstand us: we are not arguing against indulgence, but for it. Ambrose Bierce defined an ascetic as “a weak person who succumbs to the temptation of denying himself pleasure,” and we concur. As Chuck Baudelaire wrote, you must always be high – everything depends on this. So we are not against drunkenness, but rather against drink! For those who embrace drink as a route to drunkenness thus cheat themselves of a total life of enchantment.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

You guys know we shouldn't hate the people moving into a neighborhood right? It's not their fault that the Capitalists raise prices.

I mean, come on guys. This is like blaming your shitty wage on some poor individual working in payroll.

[Widerstand]

You guys know we shouldn't hate the people moving into a neighborhood right? It's not their fault that the Capitalists raise prices.

I mean, come on guys. This is like blaming your shitty wage on some poor individual working in payroll.

It's not just people though. First and foremost big companies move in. The rich folks only follow when all the poorer people are already out.

Also it's important to note how much the municipality often has their hands in gentrification.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

It's not just people though. First and foremost big companies move in. The rich folks only follow when all the poorer people are already out.

Also it's important to note how much the municipality often has their hands in gentrification.

I agree with you that many cities try to encourage this gentrification, but we shouldn't be mad at individuals (pioneering artists, hipsters, hippies, bohemians etc.) for moving into a neighborhood.

APOC in my opinion shouldn't get pissed at CrimethInc for having a meeting, it's not their fault that landlords and the bourgeois raise prices. APOC should instead turn their anger against the people that are actually kicking poor people out, i.e landlords and capitalists.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Fuck APOC.

Uh . . . no.
Self-organization among anarchist people of colour is totally a good thing.
Fuck this particular crew, sure, but . . .

[syndicat]

gentrification is a process of inflow of capital into neighborhoods. it has a reverse process, called "filtering". I suggest reading the following piece:

http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/gentry.htm

Neal Smith's book is a good Marxist account of gentification.

what makes rents and housing prices unaffordable is the inflow of capital into neighborhoods. speculators start buying buildings. landlords fix places up and flip buiildings, renting at higher rents to people with more income. developers build new, expensive condos. office buildings are built that provide work space for corporate employees who are making high incomes, such as managers, engineers, designers, etc. they then would like to live nearby perhaps.

so the cause of genetrification lies with speculators, landlords, banks, developers.

[The Douche]

Uh . . . no.
Self-organization among anarchist people of colour is totally a good thing.
Fuck this particular crew, sure, but . . .

Nah man, fuck APOC. The whole "organization" is filled to the brim with shitty politics.

What is a person of color anyways? Who decides who is a person of color?

APOC is totally, and 100% obsessed with leftism.

[Widerstand]

we shouldn't be mad at individuals (pioneering artists, hipsters, hippies, bohemians etc.) for moving into a neighborhood.

No, we shouldn't. That's what I've been trying to say all along >.< Neither should we hate ourselves if we belong to those groups. It's not like we wouldn't suffer from gentrification.

[Amphictyonis]

No, we shouldn't. That's what I've been trying to say all along >.< Neither should we hate ourselves if we belong to those groups. It's not like we wouldn't suffer from gentrification.

I had to move because of the yuppie scum .com boom and I would scoff at every 25 year old millionaire I would see in the Mission. They even took over one of my favorite bars. There is no hope for San Fransisco.

[ellipsis]

SF is beyond hope of being non gentrified at least for the foreseeable future. Although the mission does still have its huge latino population and gang fights where food not bombs serves, 16th and mission bart.

[ellipsis]

You need more wifebeaters XD

Well, yes. Also feeding homeless people in the streets helps slow gentrification.

[Amphictyonis]

SF is beyond hope of being non gentrified at least for the foreseeable future. Although the mission does still have its huge latino population and gang fights where food not bombs serves, 16th and mission bart.

The 'suranios' have 19'th and below and 'nortenios' 24'th and above. You should have seen the mission in the 1990's. If you want to see straight up segregation go over and up 3'rd street to bay view/hunters point.

MpHJC_IM3vM

Anyhow, another less known fact is many of the families in the mission who have managed to hold onto their homes are on section 8 that is under rent control. The city has (in very few cases) "let them stay" to maintain the appearance of diversity. A one bedroom house in the mission is prime real estate usually out of the range of people such as myself (unless you take 2 people into a one bed home).

Fish around here for a while-

http://www.sfrb.org/

[Amphictyonis]

Well, yes. Also feeding homeless people in the streets helps slow gentrification.

Eating yuppies and landlords in the streets helps slow gentrification ;) Is Gavin Newsom still giving out free bus tickets to homeless people? What a dick. I guess thats one way of sweeping the problem under the rug?

[ellipsis]

Eating yuppies and landlords in the streets helps slow gentrification ;) Is Gavin Newsom still giving out free bus tickets to homeless people? What a dick. I guess thats one way of sweeping the problem under the rug?
"Homeward Bound" oh yah I had to send my broke cousin back to denver on it, they give you 10 bucks a day for food too! i have another comrade who used it to go all the way back to virginia. In Hawaii they were talking about flying people to the mainland as a solution to homelessness.

[Widerstand]

Actually feeding homeless on the street does help.

Just today I had to watch two homeless people getting thrown out of a train station bistro by security.

The rich HATE the poor and homeless.

[Amphictyonis]

"Homeward Bound" oh yah I had to send my broke cousin back to denver on it, they give you 10 bucks a day for food too! i have another comrade who used it to go all the way back to virginia. In Hawaii they were talking about flying people to the mainland as a solution to homelessness.

How about living wage jobs and rent control? Wheres the profit in that. Pesky homeless just need to leave!

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Fuck living wage. Mug a yuppie.

[StalinFanboy]

Fuck living wage. Mug a yuppie.

You strike me as someone that will never, ever do this.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

You strike me as someone that will never, ever do this.

What 'strikes' you about them that makes you think they wouldn't do that?

[ellipsis]

What 'strikes' you about them that makes you think they wouldn't do that?

Something that I have learned, there is an inverse relationship between severity of talk on the internet and meaningful action in real life.

For example, despite the subject matter of my blog, I have not even shot a gun in over a year.

[StalinFanboy]

What 'strikes' you about them that makes you think they wouldn't do that?

they do consent workshops.


not hard ;)

[727Goon]

I support APOC's stance on crimethinc. It's funny how a bunch of white people who have put out 10 times more literature about animal liberation and environmentalism than anything to do with racial oppression wonder why there isnt any racial diversity in their group and why black radicals don't want them invading our neighborhoods.

[ellipsis]

wonder why there isnt any racial diversity in their group and why black radicals don't want them invading our neighborhoods.

Do they wonder that, in terms of lack of racial diversity?

Also how does a one time conference constitute an invasion?

And since when did one group of people get to decide which neighborhoods are theirs and who gains the privileged of holding events there? Sounds pretty authoritarian for a RAANista.

[Widerstand]

I support APOC's stance on crimethinc.

I support the Red Army's stance on Sailors.


It's funny how a bunch of white people who have put out 10 times more literature about animal liberation and environmentalism than anything to do with racial oppression wonder why there isnt any racial diversity in their group

Because, obviously, racial minorities are not allowed to care about animal liberation but only about racism, right? Because like, the amount of literature a group puts out on a certain topic has fuck all to do with the groups composition. I guess that's why the groups that don't publish books have no members :lol:


and why black radicals don't want them invading our neighborhoods.

"You watch out you white vegans if I see you in my hood once Imma beat you up good"

[The Douche]

I support APOC's stance on crimethinc. It's funny how a bunch of white people who have put out 10 times more literature about animal liberation and environmentalism than anything to do with racial oppression wonder why there isnt any racial diversity in their group and why black radicals don't want them invading our neighborhoods.

You do realise that the APOC members were from out of town, one of them even road into town with a crimethincer? And that there were actually people from the neighborhood at the convergence who APOC kicked out?

Yeah, APOC kicks people of color out of their own communities.


U dumb.


And if you don't understand how the assault on our environment goes hand-in-hand with race issues...well...

U dumb.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

they do consent workshops.


not hard ;)

Forgive my ignorance. What is that?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

You strike me as someone that will never, ever do this.

Yr signature is from Nihilist Communism, and you are "buds with one of the dudes that's worked on a lot of the translations of Foucault." I'm pretty sure you will never ever do anything.

As for consent workshops - and excuse me while I get all CrimethInc.-y - I want my community to be careful with each other so we can be dangerous together.

And, y'know, not degenerate into a sausagefest bookclub, which is probably the only place Dupont interests anyone off of the internet.

[StalinFanboy]

Yr signature is from Nihilist Communism, and you are "buds with one of the dudes that's worked on a lot of the translations of Foucault." I'm pretty sure you will never ever do anything.

As for consent workshops - and excuse me while I get all CrimethInc.-y - I want my community to be careful with each other so we can be dangerous together.

And, y'know, not degenerate into a sausagefest bookclub, which is probably the only place Dupont interests anyone off of the internet.

Yeah well you're from Canada.



P.S. Are you assuming the gender identities of people who participate in reading groups that read Dupont?

[ellipsis]

Yeah well you're from Canada.

And a Haligonian to boot! How's that warm gulf current treating u!?

[StalinFanboy]

Haligonian
Bro. That's hella racist

[ellipsis]

Its the demonym for Halifax after all.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah well you're from Canada.



P.S. Are you assuming the gender identities of people who participate in reading groups that read Dupont?

Re: Gender/reading Dupont. I don't deny that someone who identifies as a woman might like Dupont, I just have yet to meet, in person, anyone who was not a cismale who was really pumped on it. On the other hand, this is also true of the S.C.U.M. Manifesto, so who fucking knows?

(Also, I appreciate yr cute de-escalating comment, and I'm sorry for trying to pick a flamewar)



And a Haligonian to boot! How's that warm gulf current treating u!?

Fucking fantastic. I haven't had to bust out my winter jacket yet.
I keep repeating that joke to people who talk to me about the weather when I'm at work (I work outside). "I would be really concerned, but I heard that it's just the Gulf Stream shifting due to climate change. Thank fuck, right?"

Also: Take that Britian!


Bro. That's hella racist

Rofl.

Actually, I heard someone say a while ago that a horrifically ineffective black bloc that happened in Halifax in 2006, and I'm paraphrasing, "Signaled the emergence of insurrectionary anarchism in Canada."

Maybe I should start a "Halifax" thread.

ANYWAY . . . so, CrimethInc.
Anyone else find ridiculous CrimethInc. posters wheatpasted all over their neighbourhoods on a semiregular basis?

[ellipsis]

Anyone else find ridiculous CrimethInc. posters wheatpasted all over their neighborhoods on a semiregular basis?

No but I see them at lots of collective houses/infoshops of the anarchist variety. I also here people shit talk Crimethinc at the same establishments.:D

Maybe I will confront them/engage them at the upcoming anarchist bookfair in SF. Last year I decided not to start shit or even talk to them.

[StalinFanboy]

Re: Gender/reading Dupont. I don't deny that someone who identifies as a woman might like Dupont, I just have yet to meet, in person, anyone who was not a cismale who was really pumped on it. On the other hand, this is also true of the S.C.U.M. Manifesto, so who fucking knows? I've met a few women that think Dupont is interesting. To be totally honest, I haven't even read all of NihCom and I don't even agree with everything I have read. I do think certain points they make are definitely interesting, and the quote in my sig is one that I feel is particularly important.


(Also, I appreciate yr cute de-escalating comment, and I'm sorry for trying to pick a flamewar)

Yeah I realize my original post came off as hella rude and antagonistic. I may have been in a bad mood when I posted it. my b

[synthesis]

why black radicals don't want them invading our neighborhoods.
"You watch out you white vegans if I see you in my hood once Imma beat you up good"

How is this not racist? Serious question.

[MarxSchmarx]

"You watch out you white vegans if I see you in my hood once Imma beat you up good" How is this not racist? Serious question.

I agree. widerstand Please explain yourself or I'm issuing an infraction.

[Widerstand]

How is this not racist? Serious question.

What about it is supposedly racist exactly? The fact that I said "hood" and "Imma"?

[synthesis]

What about it is supposedly racist exactly? The fact that I said "hood" and "Imma"?

Perhaps you are unaware of the context of gentrification specific to the U.S. but it came across as though you were reducing all black community opposition to gentrification to the most base and basic caricature of black people possible. (Violence, territoriality, etc.) I tried to read it in a "satirical" sense but it still came across as racist.

[Widerstand]

Perhaps you are unaware of the context of gentrification specific to the U.S. but it came across as though you were reducing all black community opposition to gentrification to the most base and basic caricature of black people possible. (Violence, territoriality, etc.) I tried to read it in a "satirical" sense but it still came across as racist.

I'm not aware of me having done this, and I apologize if it was understand that way.

If it gives you any comfort, I would've said similar if it was a white group instead of APOC.

My point stands however that beating people up for holding an Anarchist event in your neighborhood is a ridiculously useless attempt fighting gentrification.

[syndicat]

The mere presence of some white people in a community of color isn't going to cause or necessarily contribute to gentrification there. especially if it's just a meeting and they don't live there. for one thing, gentrification, as the name implies, has something to do with the urban gentry, that is, higher income people.

[bcbm]

i heard a rumor that the neighborhood in question was like italian or polish or something.

[gorillafuck]

I support the Red Army's stance on Sailors.
Hahahaha you think that APOCs stance on crimethinc is comparable to the krondstadt massacre?:laugh:


APOC is totally, and 100% obsessed with leftism.
I'd rather that than crimethinc, who publishes stuff on why deodorant is bad and veganism. They also criticize the left for being "boring" but they themselves fail miserably at being interesting.

I think Niccolo Rossi summed up crimethinc pretty great.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I want my community to be careful with each other so we can be dangerous together.

Urgh!

Reading threads like this makes me weep for my tendency. It reminds me of how "anti-authoritarians" take real, very important social issues (like racism, patriarchy, gentrification etc.) and make a mockery out of them by engaging in some petty act (like crashing a Crimethinc convergence...yeah, I'm sure a Crimethinc convergence is going to raise property values), followed by plenty of back-slapping, navel-gazing and flowery-communique-writing about how patriarchy/racism/homophobia/gentrification/all-of-the-above was SMASHED. Maybe I've just been reading too much anarchistnews.org lately, though.

[Widerstand]

Hahahaha you think that APOCs stance on crimethinc is comparable to the krondstadt massacre?:laugh:

It's quite telling that you only comment on the obvious hyperboles out of all I've written and pretend they are the essence of my argument.

What, shall I hail for the APOC because they "fight gentrification?" Gtfo.

[gorillafuck]

It's quite telling that you only comment on the obvious hyperboles out of all I've written and pretend they are the essence of my argument.
I definitely didn't pretend that was the essence of your argument, I was just pointing out that that specific thing you said was ridiculous. I don't let things like that slide just because I'm not actively arguing against the person who makes a logical fallacy.

[Widerstand]

I definitely didn't pretend that was the essence of your argument, I was just pointing out that that specific thing you said was ridiculous. I don't let things like that slide just because I'm not actively arguing against the person who makes a logical fallacy.

Sorry warden.

[Ravachol]

Urgh!

Reading threads like this makes me weep for my tendency. It reminds me of how "anti-authoritarians" take real, very important social issues (like racism, patriarchy, gentrification etc.) and make a mockery out of them by engaging in some petty act (like crashing a Crimethinc convergence...yeah, I'm sure a Crimethinc convergence is going to raise property values), followed by plenty of back-slapping, navel-gazing and flowery-communique-writing about how patriarchy/racism/homophobia/gentrification/all-of-the-above was SMASHED. Maybe I've just been reading too much anarchistnews.org lately, though.

This is because most 'politics' is a subcultural commodity, sadly.

[synthesis]

I'm not aware of me having done this, and I apologize if it was understand that way.

If it gives you any comfort, I would've said similar if it was a white group instead of APOC.

My point stands however that beating people up for holding an Anarchist event in your neighborhood is a ridiculously useless attempt fighting gentrification.

Even if you meant it in the worst way possible, I don't think you should have gotten an infraction for it, since this is the sort of thing that should be addressed with dialogue, not with little gray points that show up in your control panel.

I was just having a really, really hard time trying to figure out some way of interpreting that line which would make it not racist; I still am. Can you explain exactly what you meant by it and what you hoped to accomplish by posting it? It doesn't seem to be related at all to the last sentence of the post quoted above.


If it gives you any comfort, I would've said similar if it was a white group instead of APOC.

You would've said, "come to my hood, Imma beat you up good," in a sarcastic manner? Now I'm genuinely stumped.

[Widerstand]

Even if you meant it in the worst way possible, I don't think you should have gotten an infraction for it, since this is the sort of thing that should be addressed with dialogue, not with little gray points that show up in your control panel.

Perhaps. I hold no illusions of evading a suspension much longer, though.



I was just having a really, really hard time trying to figure out some way of interpreting that line which would make it not racist; I still am. Can you explain exactly what you meant by it and what you hoped to accomplish by posting it? It doesn't seem to be related at all to the last sentence of the post quoted above.

What I wanted to accomplish? World peace. *shrug* What kind of question is that? What is there to accomplish on this forum at all? Maybe I was trying to reach out to a few on here who aren't illusionary enough to believe beating up a CrimethInc. event was a major step (or a step at all) against gentrification.

What I mean by it? Isn't it obvious? I'm bewildered how people seriously defend this sort of shit, especially the "well CrimethInc. didn't defend themselves" lot. If they had done so I'm sure we would all scream about how CrimethInc. are racist for beating black people.

As for the relation to the post I quoted, well I thought that was pretty obvious, too? The post talked about how CrimethInc. was invading "black people's neighborhoods."



You would've said, "come to my hood, Imma beat you up good," in a sarcastic manner? Now I'm genuinely stumped.

What, I was paraphrasing their stance (yes, in a sarcastic manner), not saying I would beat anyone up. :blink:

I would've paraphrased a white group's stance in a similar manner, yes. You can claim this is reducing their "struggle" to territoriality and violence, but then I'd have to ask you how exactly beating people up because they hold a convent in your neighborhood is neither. I don't mean to infer black people all do this, let alone that this is a "black thing", but I think I have the right to point out that an action is little more than stupidity - if it was a white group's action no one would've given a shit about what I said.

[synthesis]

Perhaps. I hold no illusions of evading a suspension much longer, though.

I hope you don't get suspended, and I'm not sure why you say this, but again my only intention was to try and figure out how that statement in that context could not be racist.


What I wanted to accomplish? World peace. *shrug* What kind of question is that? What is there to accomplish on this forum at all?

I don't know - maybe proving a point you were trying to make?


(yes, in a sarcastic manner)

A statement being sarcastic does not mean there isn't any racism behind it. Just to clarify.


if it was a white group's action no one would've given a shit about what I said.

Yes, because it would have made no sense. Honestly in my own mind you've essentially admitted that it was racist without recognizing the racism; I'm not really sure how to address this right now and I should probably think about it a little more.

[Widerstand]

I hope you don't get suspended, and I'm not sure why you say this, but again my only intention was to try and figure out how that statement in that context could not be racist.

And I'm just saying I don't see how it was racist and there was no racist intention behind it.



I don't know - maybe proving a point you were trying to make?


Maybe.



A statement being sarcastic does not mean there isn't any racism behind it. Just to clarify.

That wasn't what I meant at all...



Yes, because it would have made no sense. Honestly in my own mind you've essentially admitted that it was racist without recognizing the racism; I'm not really sure how to address this right now and I should probably think about it a little more.

Why? Because I used slang which is supposedly "black", despite the fact that lotta people of all colors use it? Because I pointed out that some action stinks of territoriality? I really have a hard time to get behind this...

[gorillafuck]

A statement being sarcastic does not mean there isn't any racism behind it. Just to clarify.
There are situations when it can make a statement not be racist. Elsewise it would be impossible to parody or mock racism, or point out the absurdity of racism in a comical way, without endorsing racism. And that doesn't make much sense, does it?

That's just a sidenote, though. Not very relevant to the thread.

[synthesis]

Why? Because I used slang which is supposedly "black", despite the fact that lotta people of all colors use it? Because I pointed out that some action stinks of territoriality? I really have a hard time to get behind this...

Oh God, I am IRL facepalming so hard right now. Let's resume this discussion sometime soon.


There are situations when it can make a statement not be racist. Elsewise it would be impossible to parody or mock racism, or point out the absurdity of racism in a comical way, without endorsing racism. And that doesn't make much sense, does it?

Of course - my goal was to state an exception to that rule.

[Widerstand]

Oh God, I am IRL facepalming so hard right now. Let's resume this discussion sometime soon.

If that helps keeping harm from your face :crying:

[synthesis]

On a different (but related) note:


Reading threads like this makes me weep for my tendency. It reminds me of how "anti-authoritarians" take real, very important social issues (like racism, patriarchy, gentrification etc.) and make a mockery out of them by engaging in some petty act (like crashing a Crimethinc convergence...yeah, I'm sure a Crimethinc convergence is going to raise property values)

I don't think 727Goon was referring to the Crimethinc "convergences" in neighborhoods experiencing gentrification so much as to the types of people who would attend such a "convergence" simply because they live in such a neighborhood. (Of course, he is welcome to clarify if he thinks I am incorrect.)

Honestly I completely agree with him but I don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye with the rest of you anytime soon, so it's probably a moot point regardless.

[Widerstand]

I don't think 727Goon was referring to the Crimethinc "convergences" in neighborhoods experiencing gentrification so much as to the types of people who would attend such a "convergence" simply because they live in such a neighborhood. (Of course, he is welcome to clarify if he thinks I am incorrect.)

But if the gentrification target group (yuppies, rich people, etc.) already lived there then the neighborhood is already far down the process of gentrification, in which case it would in fact be a smart move for all possible pioneers (which CrimethInc. is made out to be) to concentrate on activity in that area cos they can't do much harm there (whereas they could set off gentrification in other areas would their activity amass there).

[synthesis]

Maybe it's because I live in Portland, but when I think of "the gentrification target group" - i.e., the foot soldiers of gentrification - I don't think of "yuppies and the wealthy." I think of white people with dreadlocks - i.e., "the CrimethInc target group."

[Widerstand]

Maybe it's because I live in Portland, but when I think of "the gentrification target group" - i.e., the foot soldiers of gentrification - I don't think of "yuppies and the wealthy." I think of white people with dreadlocks - i.e., "the CrimethInc target group."

Pioneers aren't the target group, pioneers are what attracts the target group.

But you realize that pioneers ("white people with dreadlocks") usually can't afford to live in gentrified neighborhoods, either? Which is when the real target group, rich business, shops for the wealthy, and of course the wealthy, too, come in.

[synthesis]

Just for clarification, are you using the term "pioneer" because that's the accepted term for them (I have no idea) or because you actually see them as "pioneers," a la Manifest Destiny?

[Widerstand]

Just for clarification, are you using the term "pioneer" because that's the accepted term for them (I have no idea) or because you actually see them as "pioneers," a la Manifest Destiny?

I'm calling them pioneers because a) that's what the literature I've read on the topic calls them, and because b) they do have a pioneering function, but I guess one could also call them attractors or gentrification vanguard or something else, it's rather arbitrary.

[synthesis]

and because b) they do have a pioneering function,

In what way? I'm sure this is patronizing but you do understand that the term "pioneer" generally has positive connotations in English, right?

[ellipsis]

I'm calling them pioneers because a) that's what the literature I've read on the topic calls them, and because b) they do have a pioneering function, but I guess one could also call them attractors or gentrification vanguard or something else, it's rather arbitrary.

Yes its is arbitrary. But synthesis seems set on giving u a hard time.

Pioneers, because they are the first people from x demographic moving into y neighborhood and changing the character of said neighborhood. they establish the botiques and galleries and cafes, etc.

Pioneers doesn't have to have positive connotations in english, but if it does so what, winderstand can use it however he wants.

[Widerstand]

In what way? I'm sure this is patronizing but you do understand that the term "pioneer" generally has positive connotations in English, right?

Like I give a fuck about what connotations it has. They are pioneers in as much as their presence "prepares" and sets off the gentrification process.

[synthesis]

Yes its is arbitrary.

It's not as arbitrary as you think, and my criticism makes sense in the context of the conversation.


But synthesis seems set on giving u a hard time. Yes, that's all there is to it.

[Widerstand]

It's not as arbitrary as you think, and my criticism makes sense in the context of the conversation.

Oh I get it, because I use the term "pioneers", which supposedly has positive connotations - according to you, I must be racist because I think that it's positive that "black people get thrown out of their neighborhood by whites" (because that's what gentrification means to you, no?)?

I think I should also inform you that I'm a reptilian.

[synthesis]

Oh I get it, because I use the term "pioneers", which supposedly has positive connotations - according to you, I must be racist because I think that it's positive that "black people get thrown out of their neighborhood by whites" (because that's what gentrification means to you, no?)?

I think the use of that term in this context is, if not necessarily racist, then class-chauvinist.

[ellipsis]

But synthesis seems set on giving u a hard time.


I think the use of that term in this context is, if not necessarily racist, then class-chauvinist.

1,000 paper tigers!

[Widerstand]

I think the use of that term in this context is, if not necessarily racist, then class-chauvinist.

How is it either racist or class chauvinist? You realize that the pioneers are the same fucking people that get driven out of the area first? Often, actually very often, they are themselves the migrants/blacks/non-whites/whatever that you call this term racist towards. And how the fuck is it class chauvinist? What class am I supposedly of, according to you, and how am I chauvinistic about it?

Do you expect to be taken serious, at all?

[synthesis]

1,000 paper tigers!

I think this criticism says more about you than it does about me.

[ellipsis]

I think this criticism says more about you than it does about me.

Mostly it speaks to my lazy nature and the lack of true concerns I have over the thread.

10000 years of Vermont socialism!

[synthesis]

Mostly it speaks to my lazy nature and the lack of true concerns I have over the thread.

10000 years of Vermont socialism!

I think it speaks more to an implicitly pro-gentrification attitude that is pervasive among white anarchists but perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.

[Widerstand]

I think it speaks more to an implicitly pro-gentrification attitude that is pervasive among white anarchists but perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.

Now I do feel offended, seeing how the majority of my political activity centers around fighting gentrification and anti-racism/migrant rights.

[electro_fan]

good posts widerstand.

[synthesis]

Now I do feel offended... FYIAD

What's different now than from before?

[Os Cangaceiros]

On a different (but related) note:



I don't think 727Goon was referring to the Crimethinc "convergences" in neighborhoods experiencing gentrification so much as to the types of people who would attend such a "convergence" simply because they live in such a neighborhood. (Of course, he is welcome to clarify if he thinks I am incorrect.)

I honestly don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

In any case, I'm probably a "pioneer" myself. I'm white and I moved into a predominantly "working poor" black and Hispanic neighborhood, or what is commonly refered to as "the ghetto" (although my city is too safe to have a real ghetto). I did it for the same reason that I suspect many of the maligned white dudes w/ dreads and hipsters do it: I'm poor and have irregular income (lately from scratching by on whatever crappy wage job I can find).

I'm not so sure what the big deal is about the word "pioneer", either. I think it's kind of derailing the topic of how gentrification works. Which itself seemed to derail the topic of Crimethinc. Oh well.

[Widerstand]

What's different now than from before?

Maybe the fact that you discredit the entirety of my political work because of my skin color?

Because what you're saying is that if I'm white I must be in favor of gentrification, isn't it? Seriously you can take your prolier than thou attitude up where it came from for all I care. We get it, you're all so much beyond white students and the fact that all of us just can't be real revolutionaries because like... we're white, and we study. Oh and let's not forget that I'm male, too.

Seriously what the fuck?

[ellipsis]

I think it speaks more to an implicitly pro-gentrification attitude that is pervasive among white anarchists but perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.

Me not thinking that the term pioneer is racist or "class chauventist" translates to that, that I am implicitly pro-gentrification? Thats a stretch. LOL.

1,000,000 paper tigers.

[synthesis]

1,000,000 paper tigers.

Do you even know what this phrase means?

[Widerstand]

Do you even know what this phrase means?

Is it racist against Japanese because of origami?

[ellipsis]

Do you even know what this phrase means?
Well I am refering to some maoist propaganda that denounces U.S. imperialism as 1,000 paper tigers, meaning the apperance of power without the actual power, i think.

I just appropriated it instead of using the word straw man.

Your argument here has no merit. Is that more clear?

[synthesis]

Misused metaphors aside, I predict that in the next five years both of you will have an epiphany and reflect differently on this discussion. If I'm wrong, such is life.

[Widerstand]

Misused metaphors aside, I predict that in the next five years both of you will have an epiphany and reflect differently on this discussion. If I'm wrong, such is life.

You mean in the next five years I will assume that I'm actually not fighting against, but in fact for, gentrification because I'm white?

I honestly doubt that. I do hope however that your MSH bullshit won't be around in five years.