British working class need to get active in anti-fascist activity

[IndependentCitizen]

With the EDL threatening counter-demostrations against student protests, and the BNP becoming more militant.

It's time for the working class to become active in the fight against fascism. I think it's time to step the game and begin getting people especially white working class youth into anti-fascist activity.

On the 12th December here in Brighton, there's a meeting for local dissident groups at the Hobgoblin pub from 6-9pm regarding Antifa and many other organisations.

I think more of these group meetings need to be set up to help beat back fascists again!

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It all starts with a rejection of the united front tactics of UAF.

[Sasha]

dont know about the nazi situation in brighton but is this an event that should be openly advertised?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

dont know about the nazi situation in brighton but is this an event that should be openly advertised?
If there's anything that fascists are good at, its snooping around and finding anti-fascist meetings.

But I agree with the point of this thread. The working class needs to be militant against fascists and use all of its strength to kick the bastards off of our streets.

[IndependentCitizen]

dont know about the nazi situation in brighton but is this an event that should be openly advertised?

Brighton's like, the gay capital and multicultural hub of the UK, I'd be incredibly surprised if there's a single nazi here.

[IndependentCitizen]

It all starts with a rejection of the united front tactics of UAF.

Oh obviously, this has been a major issue for us anti-fascists. The bloody UAF. Useless assholes' front.

I highly doubt they'd be in attendence, since when the EDL attempted to come to Brighton in August, most ditched the UAF's march and attempted to prevent them from marching.

[Sasha]

ok, good luck then!

[Spawn of Stalin]

With the EDL threatening counter-demostrations against student protests, and the BNP becoming more militant.
Source? I'm not denying this is true but I would like to read up on this.

But yeah, STP said it better than any of us could. I went to the Nuneaton EDL and quite frankly it was embarrassing, UAF can't mobilise for shit. If you want to get involved in anti-fascism the best way to do it is go out with a couple of mates, mask up if required, and take on the fascists, party flags are not required here.

[Manic Impressive]

The EDL want counter protests against the students??? and for the cuts???

[Sasha]

If there's anything that fascists are good at, its snooping around and finding anti-fascist meetings.


i hope you are joking because in my experience they are hopeless in it.
but maybe our nazis are just even more inept than yours

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

i hope you are joking because in my experience they are hopeless in it.
but maybe our nazis are just even more inept than yours
Well I know of many anti fash meetings that have been disrupted by fascist bastards that either turn up in numbers to kick off or sneakily infiltrate, posing as someone who's there to engage in the movement.

[bailey_187]

The EDL want counter protests against the students??? and for the cuts???

yeah, i want to know more about this too?

[Hit The North]

It all starts with a rejection of the united front tactics of UAF.

Actually, it all begins with the promotion of a united front. If you want to draw the working class into anti-fascist struggle, you need to connect that struggle with the more urgent one facing the British working class: the struggle against capital's intention to force the workers to pay for a crisis they didn't create.


Brighton's like, the gay capital and multicultural hub of the UK, I'd be incredibly surprised if there's a single nazi here.

Don't be so naive. You never heard of Rudolf Hess?

And what about these guys?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_League_%28United_States%29

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Actually, it all begins with the promotion of a united front. If you want to draw the working class into anti-fascist struggle, you need to connect that struggle with the more urgent one facing the British working class: the struggle against capital's intention to force the workers to pay for a crisis they didn't create.

I agree with your description of a united front. The UAF's idea is a wholly different class collaborationist approach.

[Hit The North]

The EDL want counter protests against the students??? and for the cuts???

Who knows what their official policy is? But there's plenty of them calling for it on their forum. It stands to reason: student demos are run by lefties. Why wouldn't the right-wing scum of the EDL oppose it?

It'll be the same when the big demonstrations against the cuts come. They will also be dominated by the left. The idiots in the EDL will have to oppose them.

[Manic Impressive]

So they'll just be doing it for revenge, I guess I shouldn't be so surprised at their logic I mean they think muslims are taking over the country so shouldn't be surprised at whatever they think.

[Hit The North]

So they'll just be doing it for revenge, I guess I shouldn't be so surprised at their logic I mean they think muslims are taking over the country so shouldn't be surprised at whatever they think.

Yes, they are, as the saying goes, "fucked in the head".

[IndependentCitizen]

http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/topic/3986734/1/

Have a gander through this guys, they're all suggesting counter demonstrations, and there's a large group of them with in London as well.

As for the Nazis, I'm sure it'll be fine, we can handle ourselves ;)

[A.J.]

You mean like this.....

1mtX9EAMEcg

[9]

The working class needs to be militant against fascists and use all of its strength to kick the bastards off of our streets.
Meanwhile, the capitalist class.... :rolleyes:

[Aesop]

Meanwhile, the capitalist class.... :rolleyes:

Well fighting against the fascists which represent a immediate physical threat on the streets is in part fighting against the capitalist class.

Fighting against the wider cuts and the right wing media and against the likes of the EDL are not mutual exclusive.

[Devrim]

The thing that seems noticeable to me is how utterly impotent fascists are when there is, even a small, and let's be clear this isn't 1979, class movement.

Devrim

[electro_fan]

lol.

[MAFA]

UAF is more popular front & is apparently being put on the backburner by SWP post-CC conference. Start your own groups and tailor it to your area, build links with groups in other cities, top-down just means getting bent over a barrell by the state eventually. Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow/Edinburgh all have groups, then youve got Notts Stop the BNP etc who arent too bad

[9]

Originally Posted by Aesop
Well fighting against the fascists which represent a immediate physical threat on the streets is in part fighting against the capitalist class.I really don't see how fighting some marginal far right 'football hooligans' is part of fighting the capitalist class, tbh. And actually, I'd imagine the British ruling class would be pretty pleased if the energy of the anti-cuts movement were somehow channeled into anti-fascism.

I would also seriously question the extent to which the EDL, who I don't think are "fascists" anyway, actually "represent a immediate physical threat on the streets" to begin with, particularly in relation to other "physical threats", like the police.

[gorillafuck]

I would also seriously question the extent to which the EDL, who I don't think are "fascists" anyway, actually "represent a immediate physical threat on the streets" to begin with, particularly in relation to other "physical threats", like the police.
I don't understand it either.

Honestly, I don't see why the EDL are so important to leftists, when the obvious real enemies are the tories, the Labor party, the lib dems, the police, the bosses, and the company owners. Not small racist groups.

[IndependentCitizen]

I don't understand it either.

Honestly, I don't see why the EDL are so important to leftists, when the obvious real enemies are the tories, the Labor party, the lib dems, the police, the bosses, and the company owners. Not small racist groups.

Because this small racist group is siding with them, and threatening to counter-demonstrate our demonstrations.

Fascism grows in economic disorder, we shouldn't allow them to have any sort of platform.

[Manic Impressive]

I would also seriously question the extent to which the EDL, who I don't think are "fascists" anyway, actually "represent a immediate physical threat on the streets" to begin with, particularly in relation to other "physical threats", like the police.
I've heard plenty of reports from the last demo of a group going around beating up and harassing protesters, generally the weaker ones not in a large group. From what I've seen and heard they might have been EDL although no one really knows who they were.

[malthusela]

I really don't see how fighting some marginal far right 'football hooligans' is part of fighting the capitalist class, tbh. And actually, I'd imagine the British ruling class would be pretty pleased if the energy of the anti-cuts movement were somehow channeled into anti-fascism.

Even if it is not, your point is? The group aren't capitalists, so let's not bother trying to quell them? The rising Fascist groups in Britain are a real problem. Fascist parties are giving a reason for the bad conditions working class people are in. It's not a great reason, or even a correct one, but it's the only one they are getting 'we' (I.E. the left wing) are partaking in these arguments about whether this will fight capitalism, instead of giving people the correct answers. The correct answers which, in my opinion' will help anti-capitalism.

As a side note, they may be 'marginal', but they are still a visible worry, and they aren't being stopped. If anything they are getting more supporters. I'd rather not wait until it is like
1979, class movement.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Even if it is not, your point is? The group aren't capitalists, so let's not bother trying to quell them? The rising Fascist groups in Britain are a real problem. Fascist parties are giving a reason for the bad conditions working class people are in. It's not a great reason, or even a correct one, but it's the only one they are getting 'we' (I.E. the left wing) are partaking in these arguments about whether this will fight capitalism, instead of giving people the correct answers. The correct answers which, in my opinion' will help anti-capitalism.

As a side note, they may be 'marginal', but they are still a visible worry, and they aren't being stopped. If anything they are getting more supporters. I'd rather not wait until it is like

Which hinges on the view that; fascism is going to "grow" if we do not act now, and that, out of all the "threats" to leftism, fascism should have resources devoted to it which far outweigh its current (and from what I can safely assume) future levels of power.

It would seem to me that the best way to counter the arguments fascists put forward as to the causes of the economic downturn are best countered by increased militancy and unity amoung workers - and though that realising their class intrests in unity, regardless of race etc, though struggle, and that itself leading too greater struggle. I think actual experience of the material conditions of sturggle, which highlight class division as they do, along with its primary importance of actually overthrowing capitalism, acts as a better anti fascist device than attacking, with the rest of the leftist ghetto, a few thugs/nutters, both groups lacking almost any connection to the working class.

[Aesop]

Thanks for taking what i said out of context.




I really don't see how fighting some marginal far right 'football hooligans' is part of fighting the capitalist class, tbh.

Not sure where you live in the UK, however recently the likes of the EDL has developed from more than being mere footie hooligans.

The fact that they have interrupted union meetings, issued statements calling BA stewerts who took strike action 'agents of communism', attacking students who are against the cuts to university funding and the raise in tuition fees and their intend to curb socialist/communist agitation obviously shows that calling the EDL solely a bunch of footie hooligans is a moot point.

In regards to fighting against the capitalist class, don't you think that the likes of the EDL are just there to serve and protect the interest of a large section of the ruling class?


And actually, I'd imagine the British ruling class would be pretty pleased if the energy of the anti-cuts movement were somehow channeled into anti-fascism.

No one is this thread is stating that the anti-cuts movement should suddenly stop fighting against the cuts and devout all of its energy into focusing on the EDL.



I would also seriously question the extent to which the EDL, who I don't think are "fascists" anyway, actually "represent a immediate physical threat on the streets" to begin with, particularly in relation to other "physical threats", like the police.

To be honest may they are maybe they are not(If really interested to see of their fascist maybe you could start another thread), however they play a reactionary role which helps to divide the working class and they seek to show themselves as the radical alternative, remember what is vital for communism to be achieved is for the working class to think of themselves as a class.

How can this happen effectively if they is a movement on the streets that try to say to one group of workers that your enemy is 'islamists' and 'reds' and your friends are the ruling class?

In regards to a physical threat we may that see it may not widespread now, but why wait?
The fact that they have interrupted May Day marches and issued threats to activists, although small shows their potential if left uncombatted(is not even a word) by the working class.

Also as i said before fighting against wider issues and the EDL are not mutually exclusive.

[Kaze no Kae]

If you want to draw the working class into anti-fascist struggle, you need to connect that struggle with the more urgent one facing the British working class: the struggle against capital's intention to force the workers to pay for a crisis they didn't create.
I think everyone here probably agrees with that assessment. Unfortunately the UAF leadership doesn't. The last time I tried to suggest in a UAF meeting that part of fighting fascism was educating workers about how it undermines their attempts to defend their standards of living, I was basically ignored.


I've heard plenty of reports from the last demo of a group going around beating up and harassing protesters, generally the weaker ones not in a large group
Actually, yeah now that I think of it, someone tried to mug a friend of mine when he went to the Whitehall end to try to get out of the kettle, at the time I assumed the mugger was one of those nihilist hooligans who seem to like infiltrating black blocs but in hindsight it would make sense if it was a fascist


Which hinges on the view that; fascism is going to "grow" if we do not act now, and that, out of all the "threats" to leftism, fascism should have resources devoted to it which far outweigh its current (and from what I can safely assume) future levels of power.
Fascism represents a potential direct physical threat to ordinary people not involved in activism, as well as to activists.

[Manic Impressive]

Oh yeah forgot to say earlier that EDL members did set up a fake protest on facebook on the 19th or 20th (can't remember). I don't think it's hard to guess what their intentions were.

[Sam_b]

The bloody UAF. Useless assholes' front

So you regard the hundreds of students, workers and young people who are opposed to fascism and who are members of UAF as 'assholes' then?
What about members of your own organisation that have joined us on these demos?

[Devrim]

As a side note, they may be 'marginal', but they are still a visible worry, and they aren't being stopped. If anything they are getting more supporters. I'd rather not wait until it is like
1979, class movement.

I think that you have misunderstood my point totally.

What I said was this:


The thing that seems noticeable to me is how utterly impotent fascists are when there is, even a small, and let's be clear this isn't 1979, class movement.

What I was referring to was the fact that even though the National Front was 'strong' in the UK in 1979, they didn't run around attacking workers during the winter of discontent. In the election in the aftermath of the events the NF polled just under 200,000 votes, which would include a base far beyond their active support. It pales into insignificance next to the millions of workers who were on strike in the second biggest strike movement in history.

When we look at the situation today, the student movement isn't anywhere near as powerful as that strike movement was, yet I don't see massed ranks of the right taking it on in the street.

The OP said:


With the EDL threatening counter-demostrations against student protests, and the BNP becoming more militant.

I imagine that threatening them will be about as far as they get.


The fact that they have interrupted union meetings, issued statements calling BA stewerts who took strike action 'agents of communism', attacking students who are against the cuts to university funding and the raise in tuition fees and their intend to curb socialist/communist agitation obviously

Can you provide details about them 'interrupting union meetings', and 'attacking students'. As for the statements, I would imagine that it is pretty much what they are reduced to.

I think that it is important to know what actual incidents we are talking about. People tend to get a bit over excited about these things. There are examples in this thread:


Actually, yeah now that I think of it, someone tried to mug a friend of mine when he went to the Whitehall end to try to get out of the kettle, at the time I assumed the mugger was one of those nihilist hooligans who seem to like infiltrating black blocs but in hindsight it would make sense if it was a fascist

Oh, come on. Do you have any idea how many people get mugged in the UK everyday? I couldn't find any up to date information in the very brief time I bother to look, but this should give you a clue:


Attacks in which a knife was used in a successful mugging have soared, from 25,500 in 2005 to 64,000 in the year to April 2007. The figures mean that each day last year saw, on average, 175 robberies at knife-point in England and Wales – up from 110 the year before and from 69 in 2004-5.

Why does it 'make sense' that it is a fascist?


I've heard plenty of reports from the last demo of a group going around beating up and harassing protesters, generally the weaker ones not in a large group. From what I've seen and heard they might have been EDL although no one really knows who they were.

Well yes, you have heard a few rumors and as you say 'nobody really knows'.


Fascism grows in economic disorder, we shouldn't allow them to have any sort of platform.

I don't think that that is exactly right. Fascism grows on the back of working class defeat.

Gangsterio in my opinion has it spot on:


It would seem to me that the best way to counter the arguments fascists put forward as to the causes of the economic downturn are best countered by increased militancy and unity amoung workers - and though that realising their class intrests in unity, regardless of race etc, though struggle, and that itself leading too greater struggle. I think actual experience of the material conditions of sturggle, which highlight class division as they do, along with its primary importance of actually overthrowing capitalism, acts as a better anti fascist device than attacking, with the rest of the leftist ghetto, a few thugs/nutters, both groups lacking almost any connection to the working class.

Devrim

[Aesop]

So you regard the hundreds of students, workers and young people who are opposed to fascism and who are members of UAF as 'assholes' then?
What about members of your own organisation that have joined us on these demos?

To be fair, i doubt he was calling all those who come out of the streets assholes, he was referring to the leadership and the stewards on the demos.

Like when i attended the preston demo last month, i saw some guy(if my memory serves correctly he must have been a local councillor) with a huge liberal democrats placard inside the pen. So, i then went up to the pen stewards and said why do we have a guy sporting a liberal democrat placard here(this was when the student movement against the con-dems was kicking off). He stated something on the lines that 'it doesn't matter, we are just here united against fascism' and hinted to the fact that he was not going to remove the placcard or tell him to get rid. At this point i went returned to outside of the pen.

Incidents like this just shows the one of major problems with the UAF.

In regards to 'members of your own organisation that have joined us' i don't think you have phrased that correctly. Yes our members are active and who go out on the streets, but this does not necessary mean that agreeing and fledging support to the UAF. I have attended counter-protests and it has always been UAF dominated due to the fact that the UAF has almost a monopoly on anti-fascist counter-demos.

[gorillafuck]

Because this small racist group is siding with them, and threatening to counter-demonstrate our demonstrations.
And police threaten strikes and any actions against the bourgeois, and the main political parties preside over a government that already engages in mass deportations, racist policies, imperialist war, and capitalist rule. Yet somehow the biggest threat to the radical left is the EDL.

[Aesop]

Can you provide details about them 'interrupting union meetings', and 'attacking students'. As for the statements, I would imagine that it is pretty much what they are reduced to.

I think that it is important to know what actual incidents we are talking about. People tend to get a bit over excited about these things. There are examples in this thread:

In contrary to popular belief, i do not actually get a 'hard-on' when talking about such incidents.:lol:

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/9478

In regards to a may day demo held by the local unions.

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/church-and-king-mob/

In regards to attacking students.

[Sam_b]

To be fair, i doubt he was calling all those who come out of the streets assholes, he was referring to the leadership and the stewards on the demos

You shouldn't make excuses to try and cover his back. How can you 'doubt' something, and then say he specifically refers to it?

TBH though, this is the guy who calls one guy and a forum an 'EDL Front' so I don't think i'll be taking much of what he says as legit anyway.


I have attended counter-protests and it has always been UAF dominated due to the fact that the UAF has almost a monopoly on anti-fascist counter-demos.

It says a lot that UAF do all the organising and grassroots work which is then condemned by so-called 'militant anti fascists' and the like.

[Devrim]

In contrary to popular belief, i do not actually get a 'hard-on' when talking about such incidents.:lol:

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/9478

In regards to a may day demo held by the local unions.

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/church-and-king-mob/

In regards to attacking students.

So the first one says:


"At the end of the demo in Castle Square there was a motley crew of about a dozen far-right English / Welsh Defence League members.

"Despite the far-rights' attempts to appeal to workers recently, their attempts today to disrupt a workers' anti-cuts march shows their true colours.

It doesn't read to me like they attacked anyone. I think it would be mentioned there if they had. It sounds like there were a handful of rightists standing around feeling impotent.

The second is reporting a speech critising students. If by 'attacking students' you mean a pretty pathetic verbal 'attack' well then I suppose you have a point. If not, you don't.

Devrim

[Aesop]

You shouldn't make excuses to try and cover his back. How can you 'doubt' something, and then say he specifically refers to it?

I am not make excuses though. In the past when i have said 'i fucking hate the tories' i have meant that i hate the conservative party leadership and active cadres within it, this does not mean i hate every single person who happened to voted for conservative does it?

Maybe i should have said to 'in all probability in was referring to the stewards and the leadership'.



It says a lot that UAF do all the organising and grassroots work which is then condemned

This just makes it more tragic when the UAF fucks thing up, like spliting protests and/or hijacking demos that have already been organised by some local anti-fascist groups like in newport.




by so-called 'militant anti fascists' and the like.

Do you not honestly think that UAF has major problems, which in some cases is counter-productive.

[Sam_b]

i have meant that i hate the conservative party leadership and active cadres within it, this does not mean i hate every single person who happened to voted for conservative does it?

Except people that have voted Conservative are not generally 'the tories'.


Maybe i should have said to 'in all probability in was referring to the stewards and the leadership'.

So you're answering for him?


This just makes it more tragic when the UAF fucks thing up, like spliting protests and/or hijacking demos that have already been organised by some local anti-fascist groups like in newport.


So instead of whining why don't you do something about it?


Do you not honestly think that UAF has major problems, which in some cases is counter-productive.

I've not said this.

[Manic Impressive]

Well yes, you have heard a few rumors and as you say 'nobody really knows'.

Devrim
Rumours is one way to put it multiple reports from different sources would be another, including a good friend of mine. I didn't see them with my own eyes and no one knows who they were affiliated with if anyone it doesn't mean it's untrue.

You also ignored my second post about known EDL members calling a fake protest in London. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to connect the two incidents.

[Devrim]

Rumours is one way to put it multiple reports from different sources would be another, including a good friend of mine. I didn't see them with my own eyes and no one knows who they were affiliated with if anyone it doesn't mean it's untrue.

As we saw from the two reports from different sources above, neither of them included anybody being attacked. In one a few people hung around and in the other somebody said something nasty about students in a speech. Things do tend to get a little exaggerated.



You also ignored my second post about known EDL members calling a fake protest in London. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to connect the two incidents.

Did it merit a response? I am not quite sure what you mean by 'fake protest'. Did they call a protest of their own and then bottle it? If so, the fact that they don't even strong enough to organise protests pretty much say it all.

Meanwhile, of course, there is a gang of people roaming the streets attacking students and protestors. They are called the police.

Devrim

[Manic Impressive]

As we saw from the two reports from different sources above, neither of them included anybody being attacked. In one a few people hung around and in the other somebody said something nasty about students in a speech. Things do tend to get a little exaggerated. And do you think they went round and spoke to all 30,000 people there? I have heard pretty much the same thing from people on here, from people involved with education activists network and from a friend who was there as well as other articles that people were attacked by people inside the kettle. I know for a fact my friend didn't speak to either of those sources. So obviously a lot of witness reports aren't going to be included.


Did it merit a response? I am not quite sure what you mean by 'fake protest'. Did they call a protest of their own and then bottle it? If so, the fact that they don't even strong enough to organise protests pretty much say it all.

Meanwhile, of course, there is a gang of people roaming the streets attacking students and protestors. They are called the police.

Devrim
Well as it directly connected to the post which you call rumours and corroborates accounts of students being attacked by the far-right.

No EDL members called a protest in central London through a fake organization probably with the intent on causing trouble for the people who turned up. Luckily by getting the word out and probably due to the heavy snow no-one turned up to the demo.

So yes while the police are a dangerous gang attacking students the demos are also being infiltrated by the far right. Why are you finding this so hard to believe?

[Devrim]

And do you think they went round and spoke to all 30,000 people there?

I think if you go back and check what is being talked about you will find that it is a demo in Swansea with 'up to 200 people' on it, so yes, I think that they would have noticed if it had been attacked.


I have heard pretty much the same thing from people on here, from people involved with education activists network and from a friend who was there as well as other articles that people were attacked by people inside the kettle. I know for a fact my friend didn't speak to either of those sources. So obviously a lot of witness reports aren't going to be included.

I am not very clear at all what you are talking about. Perhaps you could point me to something that explains it.


Well as it directly connected to the post which you call rumours and corroborates accounts of students being attacked by the far-right.

No EDL members called a protest in central London through a fake organization probably with the intent on causing trouble for the people who turned up. Luckily by getting the word out and probably due to the heavy snow no-one turned up to the demo.

So what you are saying here is that nobody was attacked. How exactly does this 'corroborate accounts of students being attacked by the far-right'?


So yes while the police are a dangerous gang attacking students the demos are also being infiltrated by the far right. Why are you finding this so hard to believe?

I don't find it difficult to believe that the far right is trying to do something. What I am questioning is the obsession with tiny irrelevant groups of people.

Devrim

[IndependentCitizen]

TBH though, this is the guy who calls one guy and a forum an 'EDL Front' so I don't think i'll be taking much of what he says as legit anyway.



Nice ad homien, typical of an SWP member - The Unite against Marxism was brought up on the EDL forum, with much support from the members. A little heads up if they do intend to make it serious.
Do you sign a form to become a member of the UAF? Do you? I'm referring to the initial structure of the organisation, this isn't reflective of who attends to oppose fascism, just because they attend, doesn't mean they're members of the UAF.

From my own experience, all they did was divert attention away from the fascists. When the ENA marched in Brighton, the UAF decided to march in the opposition direction, then hold a rally about 100 metres away, where we stood around shouting the same old friggin' chants for 2 hours. When anyone tried to break away from the main group and try to prevent the fascists from marching, the UAF stewards would instantly tell them to stop what they're doing, and protest 'peacefully'. They would then go around and try to sell as many papers as they could.

Also, what's the point in 'unity festivals', quickly announced when fascists choose to march? You should be doing what you can to prevent who ever you're opposing, from marching. Not standing around for a few hours listening to music. People are more concerned about the fascists, than a newspaper, a speech or two and what ever else there is. Granted, UAF gets the organising down, but it's useless if you're protesting a mile or 2 away. Get in there and prevent the fascists from marching, and block roads.

In regards to unity festivals, that's a very good idea - but having them the same day as an EDL march, when people are more interested in preventing them marching? Why not call for unity festivals every now and then, rather than propping up when they arrive? Build community relationships before and after the EDL et al have marched.

I attended an Anti-ENA demo as an anti-fascist, not as a member of the UAF, and I'm more than certain a lot of people do that as well.

[Manic Impressive]

I think if you go back and check what is being talked about you will find that it is a demo in Swansea with 'up to 200 people' on it, so yes, I think that they would have noticed if it had been attacked.I'm talking about the last major demo in London.


I am not very clear at all what you are talking about. Perhaps you could point me to something that explains it.
So what you are saying here is that nobody was attacked. How exactly does this 'corroborate accounts of students being attacked by the far-right'?
Is it really that hard to understand? Some EDL members posing as a group who is anti-cuts organized a demonstration with the intent to cause harm to those that turned up. This shows that there are sections of the far right in this case the EDL who want to attack protesters whether or not they were the same group which many people claim were attacking people inside the Westminster kettle is uncertain.
I'll try and find you some links with some evidence of the fake group set up by the EDL but it's going to take time and effort.


I don't find it difficult to believe that the far right is trying to do something. What I am questioning is the obsession with tiny irrelevant groups of people.

Devrim
I don't know about an obsession but they have grown fairly quickly and are quite vocal. They or another group have attacked and harassed protesters in the kettle and this has the potential to cause some serious harm to someone whether one of us or one of them. It's not more important than the movement itself but it is something that needs to be publicized to discredit them and to inform people of the risk that they represent. They are not an irrelevant group if they pose a real threat to peoples safety.

I can't find you the links I saw as the facebook page they were posted on has been deleted.
http://buddyhell.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/uk-uncuts-facebook-page-deleted/

[Kaze no Kae]

Some EDL members posing as a group who is anti-cuts organized a demonstration with the intent to cause harm to those that turned up
I do know the demo you're talking about actually, but was there any proof that they were EDL? I thought it was just a group of people who nobody had heard of before. I remember it looked pretty suspicious but I don't remember anything concrete.

[Manic Impressive]

It was called "the march of resistance" the group was called "UK peoples initiative" and was called for 20/12. The place that had the links for it was a FB page called UK Uncut which has been supplying information about demos and setting up local organization across the country. That page has now been deleted so I'm going to find it quite difficult to find all of the information about that group which was on that page. There is no definite link between the fake group which set up the march and the group who were in the Westminster kettle but the intent of both groups were the same.

Here's a news report of the unknown group who were attacking students in the kettle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eivbQ-fIrts

Here's a very long blog by the organizer of the peoples initiative John Abraham about the peoples initiative. http://peopinitiative.livejournal.com/478.html

[Aesop]

Except people that have voted Conservative are not generally 'the tories'.

But nevertheless are there still not supporting the Conservative party by voting for them?

The same could be said for those who attend the UAF demo, they may show support for the UAF but it doesn't mean they are part of the leadership or part of the active cadres within it.



So instead of whining why don't you do something about it?

Sam........it is called criticism. No need to throw your toys out of the pram.

I am not here to get into a slagging match about when and where the UAF actions have been counter-productive(I am sure you have had enough of them)

There is already local groups that have sprung up and do attend these demos and in their material such as the likes of MAFA and the EAFA

[malthusela]

Which hinges on the view that; fascism is going to "grow" if we do not act now, and that, out of all the "threats" to leftism, fascism should have resources devoted to it which far outweigh its current (and from what I can safely assume) future levels of power.

Does it not? It seems to be a recurring pattern that fascism grows when people do not act to stop it. A similar, and much more popular movement is occurring in the United States, and it is due to the same two reasons, nobody is stopping them, and nobody is giving the working classes, or even middle class a differing answer.


It would seem to me that the best way to counter the arguments fascists put forward as to the causes of the economic downturn are best countered by increased militancy and unity amoung workers - and though that realising their class intrests in unity, regardless of race etc, though struggle, and that itself leading too greater struggle.

That is what I am saying, but no effective force is organising these pepole, or giving them a reason as to why they are being paid so little etc. I'm not proposing to beat up and kill fascists, i'm proposing that 'we' give said classes an education as to what is really happening, rather than us squabbling over what direction we should take. In my opinion, there is no effective force which supports the British working class, bar the unions. And they don't particularly care whether the working class people are racist or not.

[Hit The North]

Like when i attended the preston demo last month, i saw some guy(if my memory serves correctly he must have been a local councillor) with a huge liberal democrats placard inside the pen. So, i then went up to the pen stewards and said why do we have a guy sporting a liberal democrat placard here(this was when the student movement against the con-dems was kicking off). He stated something on the lines that 'it doesn't matter, we are just here united against fascism' and hinted to the fact that he was not going to remove the placcard or tell him to get rid. At this point i went returned to outside of the pen.

Incidents like this just shows the one of major problems with the UAF.



This is an incredible post. The stewards do not own the demo. If you had a problem with the Lib Dem placard, you should have confronted the liberal democrat and had the political argument with him/her.

Take responsibility for yourself.

[Aesop]

This is an incredible post.

Sorry but are you trying to say i am lying?



The stewards do not own the demo.

Nevertheless they do have some sort of authority in who is allowed into their pen and what signs can be held.
This line of arguement is no good so lets say if someone had a Ukip placard, the stewards who have no authority to eject that person from the pen or at least tell that person to get rid of it?

Don't remember where i read it, but the fact that in the past a steward had restrain some anarchist and handed them over to the police, shows that they must at least of some sort of power in regards to who enter the pens of what material is about..


If you had a problem with the Lib Dem placard

Don't you have a problem with representatives of the ruling class being in your partys' front(UAF) pen waving about their Lib Dem placards?


, you should have confronted the liberal democrat and had the political argument with him/her.

Now hang on there:bored:.

I am sorry if didn't give every nitty gritty detail of what happened that day.

I did in fact challenged him and his female friend(not sure if that was the wife) with another person(who also happens to be a member of RevLeft). When challenged he merely replied on the lines of that today he was here to oppose racism and that we should be united and all of that rhetoric.

What was i mean to do afterwards?
Beat him to a plup with his placard in front of the police?
Evict him myself even though i am not a member of the UAF or the fact that i didn't intend to remain in the pen?

Talking to that councillor should not really have been part of my job that day.


Take responsibility for yourself.

What is this meant to mean?

1) I really shouldn't be having to tell SWP members why having ardent Libdems in your pen and giving them a platform is kind of the wrong way to go about in regards to 'anti-fascism'.

2) I know that your SWP member, however your digging your head in the sand if you think that criticism of the UAF is undue. I personally do not hate UAF members, in fact if i would be very proud and pleased to have a neighbour who was willing to go out and be active in regards to anti-fascism, however this does not mean that i agree with the tactics of the UAF or agree with the leadership or active cadres in it.

Can't you just drop party politics for a moment and realise what happened that day what to some extend showed what is fundamentally wrong with the UAF

[Sam_b]

Nice ad homien, typical of an SWP member - The Unite against Marxism was brought up on the EDL forum, with much support from the members. A little heads up if they do intend to make it serious.

This doesn't make it an EDL fornt though, because it was 'brought up on the EDL forum, with much support'. Do you know what a front actually is?


Do you sign a form to become a member of the UAF? Do you? I'm referring to the initial structure of the organisation, this isn't reflective of who attends to oppose fascism, just because they attend, doesn't mean they're members of the UAF.


So just everyone who is signed up to UAF is an 'asshole' then? (What was that about ad hominems?)


the UAF stewards would instantly tell them to stop what they're doing, and protest 'peacefully'. They would then go around and try to sell as many papers as they could.


UAF doesn't sell papers champ.



Also, what's the point in 'unity festivals', quickly announced when fascists choose to march? You should be doing what you can to prevent who ever you're opposing, from marching. Not standing around for a few hours listening to music. People are more concerned about the fascists, than a newspaper, a speech or two and what ever else there is. Granted, UAF gets the organising down, but it's useless if you're protesting a mile or 2 away. Get in there and prevent the fascists from marching, and block roads.


Do you not agree that it is better to be making arguments in the wider group than cackling from the sidelines about 'failures' and 'the UAF are wrong'? Why don't you start going to UAF organising meetings and start bringing this up? Or is it much easier to snipe from the outside than actually take responsibility for any work?


But nevertheless are there still not supporting the Conservative party by voting for them?

So the working class families in Keithley (just an example) who voted Tory this year are the same political monster as the organisation?


Sam........it is called criticism. No need to throw your toys out of the pram.


Wow, nice bit of patrionise there. This is also called criticism - if you have problems with UAF, why don't you actually do something about it, like start taking some organisational responsibility. Calling something a 'hijack' is not criticism.

If you think this is 'throwing toys out of the pram' then you seem to be leading an awfully sheltered life.

[Sam_b]

I am sorry if didn't give every nitty gritty detail of what happened that day.

I did in fact challenged him and his female friend(not sure if that was the wife) with another person(who also happens to be a member of RevLeft). When challenged he merely replied on the lines of that today he was here to oppose racism and that we should be united and all of that rhetoric.

What was i mean to do afterwards?
Beat him to a plup with his placard in front of the police?
Evict him myself even though i am not a member of the UAF or the fact that i didn't intend to remain in the pen?

Talking to that councillor should not really have been part of my job that day.

If you see beating up a Lib Dem supporter or evicting him as one of the only possible options then that leads me to believe you didn't have a very good political argument ready, and are not really able to make tactical interventions.


I really shouldn't be having to tell SWP members why having ardent Libdems in your pen and giving them a platform is kind of the wrong way to go about in regards to 'anti-fascism'.

You shouldn't be having to tell SWP members this at all, seeing as it was a UAF organised demo and event. Though it's a nice bit of sect manoeuvring incinuating that the UAF is only the SWP and only led by the SWP.

[Kaze no Kae]

if you have problems with UAF, why don't you actually do something about it, like start taking some organisational responsibilityLike creating independant, grassroots-led anti-fascist groups that promote a class analysis of fascism and the way to defeat it, and aren't afraid to defy the police or piss off bourgeois political parties?

Like this one? (http://manchesterafa.wordpress.com/)
Or this one? (http://liveraf.wordpress.com/)
Or maybe this one? (http://www.edinburghantifascist.org.uk/)

[Delenda Carthago]

Judging by many people I know, I think antifascism may become the reason for people to get involved in the Left.So its not only that antifascism may turn people to safe for the system choises,but its also that it can become a tool for the revolutionaries to atract people.

[nuisance]

Brighton's like, the gay capital and multicultural hub of the UK, I'd be incredibly surprised if there's a single nazi here.
Be surprised then, because there are. And by that I mean those trying to create a street level movement, not the BNP electorate style, not that they've had much success!

[Aesop]

So the working class families in Keithley (just an example) who voted Tory this year are the same political monster as the organisation?

No i have not suggested that, but never the less they are giving/are have given support to the Conservative party.

Obviously this family is not the same 'political monster' as the Conservative but, it is a bit like when person why votes for the BNP because he or she believes that immigrants are taking British jobs. This person may well be bigotted and support the BNP by voting for them, however that person is probably not a fascist or as ideologically committed like Nick Griffin or other active cadres within the BNP.

Anyway doesn't your point contradict your earlier point, when you were critcising independent revolution's comment about the UAF.

Surely your same argument can used to state that independent revolution was talking about the leadership and some of the most active cadres within it?

[QUOTE=Sam_b;1973407]Wow, nice bit of patrionise there.

Coming from someone who accused me of whinging.


This is also called criticism - if you have problems with UAF, why don't you actually do something about it, like start taking some organisational responsibility.

What is this meant to mean?



Calling something a 'hijack' is not criticism.

Well this is what many people on the ground stated what happens on a number of occasions.


If you think this is 'throwing toys out of the pram' then you seem to be leading an awfully sheltered life.

Just don't, just don't sam. Let's remain on topic.

[Aesop]

If you see beating up a Lib Dem supporter or evicting him as one of the only possible options then that leads me to believe you didn't have a very good political argument ready, and are not really able to make tactical interventions.

They were meant to be rhetorical questions.

You can believe what you want to.
We had the political arguments but if someone does not want to listen and has already made his mind up it is a bit difficult to get the results you want.




You shouldn't be having to tell SWP members this at all, seeing as it was a UAF organised demo and event.

Stop lying too yourself Sam.
Everyone knows that there is a strong association between UAF and the SWP. The fact i see copies of the socialist workers on a stall giving information about UAF and giving join cards, is enough to believe there is a strong association with the SWP and UAF.
So it is not totally far-fetch to assume that the steward was an associate of the SWP or a SWP member.



Though it's a nice bit of sect manoeuvring incinuating that the UAF is only the SWP and only led by the SWP.

I have never stated that the UAF is only SWP, please quote if i have.

Just to throw this up, i do not hate the UAF in fact i agree with the aims of the UAF in 'smashing fascism in all forms'(i believe that is the aim). In fact i would be very happy to have a neighbour who supports the aims of the UAF. However the tactics that the UAF pursue sometimes i believe and among others, are counter-productive.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

UAF tacticts are not sometimes counter-productive, they are USUALLY counter-productive to say the least, if not outright useless, dividing and damaging. Everybody involved more or less seriously in "no platform" type of anti-fascism knows to stay away from UAF leadership and any UAF actions and do your own stuff. Unfortunatelly UAF has ahabit of turning up at things organised by other groups with biggest lacards and biggest megaphones and then pretend it was them doing it all along and taking people away from the confrontation (Brighton anti-ENA action is an excellent example). No amount of propaganda by any UAF cockface on this forum will change that.
And everybody fucking knows that UAF is another of SWP fronts, this is not a secret for many, many lyears (just as ANL before..)