Tendencie wars

[Savior]

I have no idea if this is the right place. But what is the tendency wars about?

[Property Is Robbery]

People like to bicker, Pan Leftism is where it's at.

[hatzel]

I suppose we just love telling everybody else why they're wrong. And, I guess we might agree, one is more likely to find a reason to conflict with those who are closer to us in opinion. What I mean is...well, think of the whole Catholic-Protestant conflict. It's easier for a Christian to say 'well, Hinduism is a different religion, so of course they're viewpoint is different', but a Catholic might say to a Protestant 'this is our book and you're doing it wrong!'. I guess it's the same here. We look at fascists, for instance, and of course they're wrong. We look at those of other tendencies, and maybe we just think 'what?! You took the same idea I took, read these books, same problem, same solution, but that's what you came up with? How the hell did you fuck it up so bad?!' :rolleyes:

[Widerstand]

Basically, people trying to gain a sense of self-importance by "proving" how much all other ideologies suck. Overall, it's pretty amusing online, but rather irrelevant in real life, at least for me. None of the groups I work with organize along tendency lines, and indeed such an organization would be pretty stupid (most of the dogmatic sectarians get around this by simply disowning other tendencies of being part of the left and the working class, and "justifying" their attacks on them that way).

There are some tendency wars that are or were relevant in certain parts of the world, for example the Stalinist - Anarchist conflict in Greece (citation needed?), the Communist - Anarchist conflict in the Spanish revolution and the USSR (Kronstadt), or the Anti-German - Anti-Imp conflicts in the German radical left, where practical concepts and political view points/goals conflict in struggle.


People like to bicker, Pan Leftism is where it's at.

How does Pan-Leftism differ from non-doctrinaire communism though?

[Red Commissar]

How does Pan-Leftism differ from non-doctrinaire communism though?

I think the "pan-Leftism" group here welcomes anyone of socialist thought, be it anarchist, syndicalist, democratic socialist, etc not just differences among Marxists like non-doctrinaire would have.

As for OP, sit around the forum for awhile and you'll see what a tendency war is. Popular topics include,

-Bakunin and Marx
-Stalin and Trotsky
-Krondstadt
-Socialism in One Country and the Permanent Revolution
-Anti-Revisionism
-Khrushchev
-The Cultural Revolution
-Vanguards
-The "Transition State"
-Was the Soviet Union capitalist, or when did the Soviet Union become capitalist?
-The role of a Communist party

etc etc etc etc many of them overlap and have differing opinions depending on if you're an anarchist, a Left Com, a ML, Trotskyist, Maoist, Hoxhaist, and what ever else.

[Widerstand]

I think the "pan-Leftism" group here welcomes anyone of socialist thought, be it anarchist, syndicalist, democratic socialist, etc not just differences among Marxists like non-doctrinaire would have.

Hm... I see. Makes more sense than non-doctrinaire communism then.

I just am very critical of "Pan" lol.

[Zanthorus]

...what is the tendency wars about?

A long time ago in a distant land, the kingdom of the Workingmen's International, there reigned a benevolent king, Karlus Marxicus. Karlus brought much wisdom to the kingdom, his doctrines of class struggle and abstract labour as the qualitative aspect of exchange-value allowed the kingdom a prosperous reign. But one day, a dark wizard, Mikhaili Baku, attempted to enter the kingdom to prosper from it's success, with his band of followers, the International Alliance of Sourcerors of Darkness. Marxicus allowed Baku and his followers into the kingdom, but on the proviso that they disband their alliance and cease their nefarious trickery. But Baku was unwilling to listen and he and his followers began gathering forces within the kingdom to break down the harmony and transform into a decentralised system of isolated states with only a nominal unity. Marxicus saw through Baku's nefarious scheme and banished him and his gang of followers from the kingdom forever. Baku and his followers then set up a rival kingdom and the two camps have been at war ever since.

(I would keep going and expand this ridiculous yarn into every tendency war but I can't be arsed)

[Impulse97]

Eh, a lot of people (Especially us Trots) seem to have one or two other tendencies that they look at and just go 'WTF?' while being cool, or at least indifferent to all the others.

It can get pretty, petty sometimes(a lot of the time with Trot Stalin :blushing:)which is never good. No matter which one you follow, in the end we all need to band together and help the revolution succeed(or elections, for you Dem. Social's out there).:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

A long time ago in a distant land, the kingdom of the Workingmen's International, there reigned a benevolent king, Karlus Marxicus. Karlus brought much wisdom to the kingdom, his doctrines of class struggle and abstract labour as the qualitative aspect of exchange-value allowed the kingdom a prosperous reign. But one day, a dark wizard, Mikhaili Baku, attempted to enter the kingdom to prosper from it's success, with his band of followers, the International Alliance of Sourcerors of Darkness. Marxicus allowed Baku and his followers into the kingdom, but on the proviso that they disband their alliance and cease their nefarious trickery. But Baku was unwilling to listen and he and his followers began gathering forces within the kingdom to break down the harmony and transform into a decentralised system of isolated states with only a nominal unity. Marxicus saw through Baku's nefarious scheme and banished him and his gang of followers from the kingdom forever. Baku and his followers then set up a rival kingdom and the two camps have been at war ever since.

(I would keep going and expand this ridiculous yarn into every tendency war but I can't be arsed)
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Q]

The Peoples Front Of Judea is totally awesome. Fuck the Popular Front... SPLITTERS!

Anyway, the tendency wars is a result of a combination of natural human desire to debate + the sectarian dividedness of the left + a webforum.

[Spawn of Stalin]

No matter which one you follow, in the end we all need to band together and help the revolution succeed(or elections, for you Dem. Social's out there).:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:
I'll never band together with Trots. They started the tendency wars! How can they possibly be trusted?!

[Impulse97]

I'll never band together with Trots. They started the tendency wars! How can they possibly be trusted?!

Awww, how cute, the little Stalinite is trying to derail this constructive, useful, non partisan thread! Surely that'll help our young friend find his way!:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[Palingenisis]

I'll never band together with Trots. They started the tendency wars! How can they possibly be trusted?!

There are also class differences involved...Trots tend to be middle class or labour aristocrats while M-Ls and Maoists tend to be "middle" or "lower" working class...With anarchists its harder to tell.

[Widerstand]

The Peoples Front Of Judea is totally awesome. Fuck the Popular Front... SPLITTERS!

Anyway, the tendency wars is a result of a combination of natural human desire to debate + the sectarian dividedness of the left + a webforum.

Striking materialist analysis.

Pray tell, are tendency wars degenerated sectarianism?

[Widerstand]

none of the groups i work with organize along tendency lines, and indeed such an organization would be pretty stupid (most of the dogmatic sectarians get around this by simply disowning other tendencies of being part of the left and the working class, and "justifying" their attacks on them that way).


there are also class differences involved...trots tend to be middle class or labour aristocrats while m-ls and maoists tend to be "middle" or "lower" working class...with anarchists its harder to tell.

qed.

[Q]

There are also class differences involved...Trots tend to be middle class or labour aristocrats while M-Ls and Maoists tend to be "middle" or "lower" working class...With anarchists its harder to tell.
:laugh:


Striking materialist analysis.

Pray tell, are tendency wars degenerated sectarianism?

Yes, obviously ;)

[4 Leaf Clover]

I think the "pan-Leftism" group here welcomes anyone of socialist thought, be it anarchist, syndicalist, democratic socialist, etc not just differences among Marxists like non-doctrinaire would have.

As for OP, sit around the forum for awhile and you'll see what a tendency war is. Popular topics include,

-Bakunin and Marx
-Stalin and Trotsky
-Krondstadt
-Socialism in One Country and the Permanent Revolution
-Anti-Revisionism
-Khrushchev
-The Cultural Revolution
-Vanguards
-The "Transition State"
-Was the Soviet Union capitalist, or when did the Soviet Union become capitalist?
-The role of a Communist party

etc etc etc etc many of them overlap and have differing opinions depending on if you're an anarchist, a Left Com, a ML, Trotskyist, Maoist, Hoxhaist, and what ever else.

and of course , civil war in Spain

[Ovi]

I hope this thread about tendency wars turns into a tendency war.

[Red Commissar]

and of course , civil war in Spain

Ah yes, I forgot about that one. Not sure how :crying:

[Savior]

Ah yes, I forgot about that one. Not sure how :crying:

Hmmm...how exciting, I'm a pan leftist myself. Is that even a tendency?

[4 Leaf Clover]

can you describe what pan-leftism is ?

Are you a marxist ?

[Widerstand]

From what I gathered it's really just undogmatic leftism under a confusing name.

[Savior]

can you describe what pan-leftism is ?

Are you a marxist ?

Ian a Marxist. Just I'm trying to find out a name for what I believe in.

[Red Commissar]

From what I gathered it's really just undogmatic leftism under a confusing name.

AFAIK I've only seen the concepts of the pan-Leftist group done here. The other possible name, "Pan-Socialism" has been already taken by those who attempted to group the various anti-revisionists into a unified camp.

That's not saying it's never happened. Historically the closet I can think of was the attempts at United Fronts.

[Savior]

AFAIK I've only seen the concepts of the pan-Leftist group done here. The other possible name, "Pan-Socialism" has been already taken by those who attempted to group the various anti-revisionists into a unified camp.

That's not saying it's never happened. Historically the closet I can think of was the attempts at United Fronts.

I want us to stop being so divided over trivial things. Also I'm developing my own economic theory using Marxism as a base.

[Magón]

People like to bicker, Pan Leftism is where it's at.

I'll fuckin' burn that Pan-Leftist shit down!!!! ;)

[ZeroNowhere]

I have no idea if this is the right place. But what is the tendency wars about?
Essentially, Trots are bastards who are unwilling to leave the rest of us alone and go and drown in a flood somewhere.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I hope this thread about tendency wars turns into a tendency war.
Those are always fun. We'll win since we use bricks and molotovs and we have lots of glitter and are cuter than the other tendencies.;)

Anarchists are lovelier! I should probably go to sleep instead of typing everything as I go along and what was I saying again?

[Impulse97]

Sure.:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[∞]

Its a wonderful place to get tons of rep.

1. Read post you don't agree with
2. Make a witty and snide comment
3. ????
4. PROFIT

[Impulse97]

Essentially, Trots are bastards who are unwilling to leave the rest of us alone and go and drown in a flood somewhere.


Well, harrumph to you too sir.:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[Amphictyonis]

lhdrhrlT4mk

Ideological dogma. It's universal.

[revolution inaction]

There are also class differences involved...Trots tend to be middle class or labour aristocrats while M-Ls and Maoists tend to be "middle" or "lower" working class...With anarchists its harder to tell.

actual communists understand that class is about the relationship to the means of production and therefore there are 2 principle classes, middle class is a social/cultural thing and has nothing to do wiht real class analysis.

[Red Commissar]

lhdrhrlT4mk

Ideological dogma. It's universal.

Well of course. Look at new trek vs old trek.

[Magón]

Tendency War Link 1 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/stalinism-versus-revolution-t146443/index.html)


Tendency War Link 2 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchists-position-thoroughly-t146400/index4.html)

[Amphictyonis]

Tendency War Link 1 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/stalinism-versus-revolution-t146443/index.html)


Tendency War Link 2 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchists-position-thoroughly-t146400/index4.html)

I just cannibalized three anarchists and shot a Maoist in the knee cap. This was very revolutionary :)

[Widerstand]

I just cannibalized three anarchists and shot a Maoist in the knee cap. This was very revolutionary :)

Left Comm power!

Anti-All!

[revolution inaction]

Left Comm power!

Anti-All!

left communists are just soft bolsheviks

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I have a tendency to make comments that don't make sense.:thumbup:

[PoliticalNightmare]

I want us to stop being so divided over trivial things. Also I'm developing my own economic theory using Marxism as a base.

We all have completely different ideas about transitional phases to communism. I don't see how we can "work together" :confused:

[Amphictyonis]

We all have completely different ideas about transitional phases to communism. I don't see how we can "work together" :confused:

Solidarity is bullshit.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Ian a Marxist. Just I'm trying to find out a name for what I believe in.

You don't need to.

Recognize the inherent injustice in Capitalism?
Want to abolish wage-labor relations?
Abolish private property?

You're good.

There's no need for you to develop a complex position regarding when the Soviet Union ceased being Communist, or if Trotsky was in league with Japanese and German agents.

Just go get active!

[PoliticalNightmare]

Solidarity is bullshit.

Without it, liberty cannot be maximised.

[∞]

How about the Leninists say sorry and not purge others next time.
We should all form together and fight the Stalinists.

[Property Is Robbery]

A long time ago in a distant land, the kingdom of the Workingmen's International, there reigned a benevolent king, Karlus Marxicus. Karlus brought much wisdom to the kingdom, his doctrines of class struggle and abstract labour as the qualitative aspect of exchange-value allowed the kingdom a prosperous reign. But one day, a dark wizard, Mikhaili Baku, attempted to enter the kingdom to prosper from it's success, with his band of followers, the International Alliance of Sourcerors of Darkness. Marxicus allowed Baku and his followers into the kingdom, but on the proviso that they disband their alliance and cease their nefarious trickery. But Baku was unwilling to listen and he and his followers began gathering forces within the kingdom to break down the harmony and transform into a decentralised system of isolated states with only a nominal unity. Marxicus saw through Baku's nefarious scheme and banished him and his gang of followers from the kingdom forever. Baku and his followers then set up a rival kingdom and the two camps have been at war ever since.

(I would keep going and expand this ridiculous yarn into every tendency war but I can't be arsed)
Mikhaili Baku was a benevolent wizard! :lol:

[Savior]

We all have completely different ideas about transitional phases to communism. I don't see how we can "work together" :confused:
We must unite for revolutions sake.

[PoliticalNightmare]

We must unite for revolutions sake.

How would you propose those who advocate a dictatorship of a proletariat, or even worse, a vanguard party work with anarchists? Working together for "revolution's sake" is not going to help those who want to create grassroots worker's organisations and abolish the state (a historically coercive institution). I hate to cite the brutal destruction of the Kronstadt sailors or Makhno's army by the bureacratic Red Army.

[Savior]

How would you propose those who advocate a dictatorship of a proletariat, or even worse, a vanguard party work with anarchists? Working together for "revolution's sake" is not going to help those who want to create grassroots worker's organisations and abolish the state (a historically coercive institution). I hate to cite the brutal destruction of the Kronstadt sailors or Makhno's army by the bureacratic Red Army.
Well, all those things are better than being a wage slave (in theory). After power is gained then we can decided where to go from there, or we will never unite and Capitalism will continue to gain more and more of a foothold.

[Luís Henrique]

After power is gained then we can decided where to go from there, or we will never unite and Capitalism will continue to gain more and more of a foothold.

Unity is not a precondition to struggle - it is a product of struggle.

The reason that we are so divided is that there is no actual fight against the bourgeoisie. The moment we actually start fighting, most "tendencies" will just get obsolete, insisting in putting their own cultish notions above real struggle, or will abandon such notions in favour of class struggle.

Luís Henrique

[ZeroNowhere]

We must unite for revolutions sake.
I don't think that revolution depends on 'us'.

[RED DAVE]

Tendency wars are real. Once people that are now floating around on the Internet try to immerse themselves in the working class, they'll find out how real these differences are. They involve issues such as working class organizing, relationship to the union bureaucracy, work with other tendencies, etc. The more "practical work" being done, the realer differences will become.

RED DAVE

[Quail]

Tendency wars are real. Once people that are now floating around on the Internet try to immerse themselves in the working class, they'll find out how real these differences are. They involve issues such as working class organizing, relationship to the union bureaucracy, work with other tendencies, etc. The more "practical work" being done, the realer differences will become.

RED DAVE
I don't think I'd make half the sectarian comments I do if I hadn't had to work with other tendencies in real life. A certain tendency (that I won't name, but I'm sure most people could take a good guess) makes me want to bash my head against the fucking wall every time I work with them.

[RedScare]

Damn you and your agreeing with me on 97% of issues, that's not good enough.

[Quail]

It's the tactics more than anything that I can't be doing with. Differences in tactics are very difficult to resolve in practice.

[RED DAVE]

I don't think I'd make half the sectarian comments I do if I hadn't had to work with other tendencies in real life. A certain tendency (that I won't name, but I'm sure most people could take a good guess) makes me want to bash my head against the fucking wall every time I work with them.Inside the labor movement in the US, the level of betrayal I've experienced from Stalinists and Maoists is about the level of betrayal of the liberal bureaucracy. I have no doubt that if people of either of these tendences got elected to the leadership of a union, they're mo's would be the same as the bureaucrats they displaced.

RED DAVE

[Kiev Communard]

Most current tendencies are somewhat irrelevant and outdated, in view of many modern developments, so I prefer not to associate myself with any of them, adopting independent anti-capitalist position and learning from the ideas of both Marxist and Anarchist theoreticians (and practitioners), without turning into some ideology's overenthusiastic follower. That's what I think of these problems, at least.

[IronEastBloc]

People like to bicker, Pan Leftism is where it's at.

Pan Leftism is pointless idealism. how can we have pan-leftism if anarchists, Marxist-Leninists, Democratic Socialists and Trotskyists if they all fundamentally disagree on everything except what the end-result should be?

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Pan Leftism is pointless idealism. how can we have pan-leftism if anarchists, Marxist-Leninists, Democratic Socialists and Trotskyists if they all fundamentally disagree on everything except what the end-result should be?

We all agree that Capitalism is wrong, that wage-labor is slavery. We all agree that the modern worker is exploited and not paid what he is worth. We all agree we must overthrow the system through revolution. We agree that it must be the working class that overthrows Capitalism.

We all support the worker against Capitalism, by remaining divided we greatly weaken ourselves. We need to have a common face against a common enemy.

[IronEastBloc]

We all agree that Capitalism is wrong, that wage-labor is slavery. We all agree that the modern worker is exploited and not paid what he is worth. We all agree we must overthrow the system through revolution. We agree that it must be the working class that overthrows Capitalism.

We all support the worker against Capitalism, by remaining divided we greatly weaken ourselves. We need to have a common face against a common enemy.

and that's where the agreement ends. How we get past that is what none of of us can find in common, and as far as the anarchists go, we MLs can't even agree if that is the end goal we share in common with them.

so I say fuck solidarity. that's just an excuse to let insubordinates and infiltrators into our movements. you either accept Marx, Engels and Lenin in one form or another, or you're a class enemy as far as I'm concerned.

[mikelepore]

Pan Leftism is pointless idealism. how can we have pan-leftism if anarchists, Marxist-Leninists, Democratic Socialists and Trotskyists if they all fundamentally disagree on everything except what the end-result should be?

They don't all agree on what the end result should be either. So we have people with different goals and also different methods. To call for unity is like saying: "If you and I both plan to go on a trip, then let's travel together, for the benefits derived from traveling together. Let us not worry about the fact that you are going east by airplane and I am going west by boat. Since we have in common the desire to depart from the same place, that is enough for us to travel together."

[Ovi]

Sectarianism on the revolutionary left is bewildering. I really believe that socialists should unite, as long as we all agree that leninism is bullshit.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I really believe that socialists should unite, as long as we all agree that leninism is bullshit.
I think Lenin should unite as long as he agrees that socialism is bullshit.:rolleyes:

[RedTrackWorker]

Inside the labor movement in the US, the level of betrayal I've experienced from Stalinists and Maoists is about the level of betrayal of the liberal bureaucracy. I have no doubt that if people of either of these tendences got elected to the leadership of a union, they're mo's would be the same as the bureaucrats they displaced.

TWU Local 100: (ex-)Maoist Toussaint comes to power, betrays strike. Samuelsen comes to power, blocks struggle against layoffs, backed by Solidarity and somewhat by ISO, and now backed by WWP too (who had backed Toussaint in his worst times and mocked us for voting down his post-strike sellout contract). FRSO (fightback I believe) had an elected officer who supported Toussaint till the bitter end. Yeah, why don't they all just get together so they can more effectively organize to block the class struggle?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: people live and die because of right and wrong ideas. Sectarianism exists, but fighting for clarity of purpose in the workers' movement is not it.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Panleftism exists... until you meet Revleft.

[synthesis]

Fuck sectarianism. (Everyone else's, I mean. Mine is the shit.)