Lumpenproletariat

[Fawkes]

Is a dumb term.

What's the point of making this class distinction? A low-level drug dealer is petit-bourgeois, a prostitute is proletarian, a mob boss is bourgeois. The only difference is that they operate outside of the legal marketplace, the class relations are the same.

Have at it.

[The Idler]

Lumpenproletariat are the section of the proletariat who think they have more to gain by being counter-revolutionary and fighting against leftists, trade unionists and progressives. Also, low-level drug dealers aren't petit-bourgeois.

[Fawkes]

Also, low-level drug dealers aren't petit-bourgeois.

How are they not?


Lumpenproletariat are the section of the proletariat who think they have more to gain by being counter-revolutionary and fighting against leftists, trade unionists and progressives.
And huge sections of the "legitimate" proletariat don't think that?

[Burn A Flag]

I agree with you Fawkes, but I think it is a term to describe the lowest of the low. The Lumpenproletariat being the lowest hemisphere of the proletariat.

[Manic Impressive]

De Ja Vu with this thread

I think all of Marx's definition of classes need to be re-evaluated or at least shouldn't be used too strictly for instance a city banker sells his labour to an employer which he gets paid shit loads for where as someone with a small business will earn relatively little but the banker would be of a lower class. Originally Marx includes rag and bone men and beggars in the lumpenproletariat, this is because they do not produce any productive labour and also no one directly extracts profit from their labour. For me the lumpenproletariat should be defined as someone whose interests are not the same as the proletariat and who make a living by damaging the proletariat. Marx says like the petit-bourgeoisie some may decide to side with the workers I think low level drug dealers would be 50-50 if it came down to it. The reason I would include low level dealers in the lumpenproletariat is that they are more likely to be involved in petty crime such as mugging or theft and no I'm not talking about the guy who sits in his bedroom and sells you weed I'm talking about dealers standing on the corner or in shooting galleries selling white and brown.

Marx said that the lumpen are the refuse of all classes personally I think this was a bit of snobbery on his part.

[Palingenisis]

Marx said that the lumpen are the refuse of all classes personally I think this was a bit of snobbery on his part.

Not really....Professional drug dealers, pimps, house robbers, etc have a very different mindset to ordinary working class people and often they are made up of the psychopathtic elements of all classes (especially as you near the top of the lumpen hierarchy).

[Niccolò Rossi]

Marx used the term class and identified the classes he did in various different contexts. For example in Capital Vol III Marx identifies three classes of capitalism: the proletariat, bourgeoisie and landowners. In other contexts Marx speaks of the petit-bourgeoisie, the state bureacracy and yes, the lumpenproletariat.

Nic.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Not really....Professional drug dealers, pimps, house robbers, etc have a very different mindset to ordinary working class people and often they are made up of the psychopathtic elements of all classes (especially as you near the top of the lumpen hierarchy).

Yeah definitely. I've read on irishrepublican.net how all the once strong working class republican areas in the north of Ireland that were able to withstand the Brit army and the loyalist death squads are now on their knees as a result of all the lumpens who get a free pass from the cops for their activities. your sig's right. The lumpenproletariat are the bourgeoisie's best friends

[red cat]

Prostitutes are definitely working class; Marx had been affected by his surrounding culture while classifying them wrongly as lumpen. As for beggars and other people who remain unemployed, don't they somehow help in extraction of greater surplus value from workers by enlarging the available labour pool ? So indirectly capitalists profit from their miserable condition. This is a kind of exploitation too. So someone who has only his labour power to sell but does not get the opportunity to do so should also be considered as a proletarian.

[Palingenisis]

Yeah definitely. I've read on irishrepublican.net how all the once strong working class republican areas in the north of Ireland that were able to withstand the Brit army and the loyalist death squads are now on their knees as a result of all the lumpens who get a free pass from the cops for their activities. your sig's right. The lumpenproletariat are the bourgeoisie's best friends

Its a repetition of the stratergy that was perfected in Dublin. The cops here always side with the lumpens against the working class for whatever reason. My sig though isnt saying that they are their best friends...Its saying that they share the same values.

[Palingenisis]

As for beggars and other people who remain unemployed, don't they somehow help in extraction of greater surplus value from workers by enlarging the available labour pool ?.

There are beggars and beggars though...I have begged in a couple of situations where I basically had no other choice...But there are such thing as professional beggars or people who will use begging as an add on to robbing houses, thieving, selling drugs, etc.

[Manic Impressive]

Not really....Professional drug dealers, pimps, house robbers, etc have a very different mindset to ordinary working class people and often they are made up of the psychopathtic elements of all classes (especially as you near the top of the lumpen hierarchy).
Oh for sure, I totally agree but I was mainly talking about the rag and bone men, beggars and prostitutes. That's why the concept of the lumpenprolatariat doesn't make sense.

[red cat]

There are beggars and beggars though...I have begged in a couple of situations where I basically had no other choice...But there are such thing as professional beggars or people who will use begging as an add on to robbing houses, thieving, selling drugs, etc.

They commit crimes against the proletariat and hence are lumpen elements.

[Palingenisis]

Prostitutes are definitely working class

When we talk about prostitution we have to look at so many contexts....Is a high class escort in New York part of the working class? I would say no. Is some girl working in a brothel in India or Thailand part of the working class? I would say yes.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Its a repetition of the stratergy that was perfected in Dublin. The cops here always side with the lumpens against the working class for whatever reason. My sig though isnt saying that they are their best friends...Its saying that they share the same values.

Reminds me of what I've read about the CIA apparently filling up African-American areas with drugs to take out the Black Panthers. Can't put anything past the upper classes

Yeah, I meant that they're best friends in how the lumpens serve the bourgeoisie's interests perfectly

[Palingenisis]

Oh for sure, I totally agree but I was mainly talking about the rag and bone men, beggars and prostitutes. That's why the concept of the lumpenprolatariat doesn't make sense.

Look though there is this nasty "street" culture out there that is very much about looking after number one and is very hierarchical...That is the lumpenproletariat.

You should read this article (and its not Maoist or M-L but its spot on)... http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134 .

[red cat]

When we talk about prostitution we have to look at so many contexts....Is a high class escort in New York part of the working class? I would say no. Is some girl working in a brothel in India or Thailand part of the working class? I would say yes.

I thought of the latter one while referring to prostitutes.

[Palingenisis]

I thought of the latter one while referring to prostitutes.

In the western world for me at least the whole topic of "sex work" is a complex issue...I think I would have to discuss fully in an all female group (because it is a sensitive issue) before coming to a "Line".

[Rotfront]

Proletarians with low class consciousness can be subsumed under the term "Lumpenproletariat".

[Palingenisis]

Proletarians with low class consciousness can be subsumed under the term "Lumpenproletariat".

No they cant.

Proletarians with low class conciousness dont break into the house of eldery working class people and rob what little they have.

[Rotfront]

Are Lumpenproletarier necessarily criminals? I don't think so.

[Palingenisis]

Are Lumpenproletarier necessarily criminals? I don't think so.

Than what exactly are they?

One majior problem with a lot of the left in England and to a lesser extent in Ireland is dismissing "lower" working class as "lumpen" when they just arent....One comrade on here talked about being told to go from an anti-fascist demonstration because he was obviously a "tough" "lower" working class kid.

[Fawkes]

I think I would have to discuss fully in an all female group
Believe me, females are not the only sex workers.


I agree with you Fawkes, but I think it is a term to describe the lowest of the low. The Lumpenproletariat being the lowest hemisphere of the proletariat
Why the need for the separate distinction though?


Not really....Professional drug dealers, pimps, house robbers, etc have a very different mindset to ordinary working class people and often they are made up of the psychopathtic elements of all classes (especially as you near the top of the lumpen hierarchy).
No, they don't always have a different mindset, as if all working-class people had the same mindset anyway. And you're missing the point of what I'm saying. A drug distributor does not have the same relation to the means of production as a street-level dealer does, they are not all the same and it's idiotic to categorize them as such.


As for beggars and other people who remain unemployed, don't they somehow help in extraction of greater surplus value from workers by enlarging the available labour pool ? So indirectly capitalists profit from their miserable condition. This is a kind of exploitation too. So someone who has only his labour power to sell but does not get the opportunity to do so should also be considered as a proletarian.

Yes.


The cops here always side with the lumpens against the working class for whatever reason.
What are you talking about? Lumpens against the working-class?


There are beggars and beggars though...I have begged in a couple of situations where I basically had no other choice...But there are such thing as professional beggars or people who will use begging as an add on to robbing houses, thieving, selling drugs, etc.
So people steal and rob as a means to get by, you're telling me they wouldn't benefit from a revolution?

Also, I know people who have jobs and still rob and steal from people, so how would you classify them?


Is a high class escort in New York part of the working class? I would say no. Is some girl working in a brothel in India or Thailand part of the working class? I would say yes.
They both are. They both have to sell their labor power for a wage.


Yeah, I meant that they're best friends in how the lumpens serve the bourgeoisie's interests perfectly

Proletarians are the bourgeois's best friends as they are the ones responsible for making them wealthy.


Look though there is this nasty "street" culture out there that is very much about looking after number one and is very hierarchical...That is the lumpenproletariat.
Yes, it is hierarchical, which is why to classify everyone that makes a living by illegal means as all members of the same class is incredibly stupid. As I said before, the drug importer has a different relation to the means of production as a street-level dealer.


Proletarians with low class consciousness can be subsumed under the term "Lumpenproletariat".
No, they're proletarians with low class consciousness. Do you have any idea how many proletarians here in the U.S. call themselves middle class? How's that for low class consciousness? Are they lumpens?

[Palingenisis]

What are you talking about? Lumpens against the working-class?



I gave a link that described it perfectly.

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134

At community meeting near where I live with tons of cops snopping outside lumpens burst in and slashed someone's throat. Lumpen elements in Dublin regularly try to enforce their will on working class neighbourhoods through the barrel of a gun. They rob our homes and try to fuck up our kids on drugs (and in a country with hardly any rehab for heroin we are talking whats next to a death sentence).

[Palingenisis]

Also, I know people who have jobs and still rob and steal from people, so how would you classify them?


Scumbags who need their heads kicked in or a bullet in the calf of their legs or maybe if they are especially bad their actual knee caps?:confused:

[The Red Next Door]

Speaking as a victim of lumpens; they need to have their fucking head kick in. none of you bastard never had a person pull a gun out on you or almost come to your house and try to put a fucking bullet in your head. we lost soul around here. those motherfuckers must die.

[Fawkes]

none of you bastard never had a person pull a gun out on you or almost come to your house and try to put a fucking bullet in your head. we lost soul around here. those motherfuckers must die.

Yes, cause you know all about what I've been through ya fuckin prick.

P.S. I have been robbed at gunpoint

[Manic Impressive]

Speaking as a victim of lumpens; they need to have their fucking head kick in. none of you bastard never had a person pull a gun out on you or almost come to your house and try to put a fucking bullet in your head. we lost soul around here. those motherfuckers must die.
actually I have I've also been stabbed twice

[The Red Next Door]

Yes, cause you know all about what I've been through ya fuckin prick.

P.S. I have been robbed at gunpoint

then you should know; why they fucker need to be ice.

[Fawkes]

then you should know; why they fucker need to be ice.

No, I should know why the motherfuckers that put those guys in a position where the only way they could get by was by robbing someone need to be iced (i.e. bourgeois). It's not like I'm an apologist for what they're doing, but I recognize the dire position they're in. I'm not supporting someone who is going into a project apartment and robbing some old man, I am disputing the notion of all people that operate within the illegal marketplace as being of the same class and having the same relations to the means of production.

[Palingenisis]

No, I should know why the motherfuckers that put those guys in a position where the only way they could get by was by robbing someone need to be iced (i.e. bourgeois)..

Oh shit.....I have had to beg in order to eat....No one is condemning shoplifting.....But robbing from those who have fuck all in the first place is scumbaggery end of story.

[Manic Impressive]

No, I should know why the motherfuckers that put those guys in a position where the only way they could get by was by robbing someone need to be iced (i.e. bourgeois). It's not like I'm an apologist for what they're doing, but I recognize the dire position they're in. I'm not supporting someone who is going into a project apartment and robbing some old man, I am disputing the notion of all people that operate within the illegal marketplace as being of the same class and having the same relations to the means of production.
but they don't have the same relation to the means of production they go another way

[Palingenisis]

Speaking as a victim of lumpens; they need to have their fucking head kick in. none of you bastard never had a person pull a gun out on you or almost come to your house and try to put a fucking bullet in your head. we lost soul around here. those motherfuckers must die.

Thats actually a very working class attitude among the working class who live among or near lumpens.

[Palingenisis]

but they don't have the same relation to the means of production they go another way

And they are often hired as scabs or recruited into death squads.

[Manic Impressive]

I was a lumpen that's why I've had a gun to my head and been stabbed twice. Luckily I found a way out

[Fawkes]

Oh shit.....I have had to beg in order to eat....No one is condemning shoplifting.....But robbing from those who have fuck all in the first place is scumbaggery end of story.

They would still benefit from a revolution, thus making them potential allies. And yes, obviously they're committing "scumbag" acts, I'm not disputing that.


but they don't have the same relation to the means of production they go another way
What do you mean they go another way? A pimp and a prostitute = bourgeois and proletarian; street-level dealer = petit-bourgeois; distributor = bourgeois.

[Palingenisis]

They would still benefit from a revolution, thus making them potential allies. And yes, obviously they're committing "scumbag" acts, I'm not disputing that.


They dont think in those terms though...Seriously at least in Ireland they seem very much tied into the system. The point is they dont think collectively as in they dont think about the wider community and how they have a stake in it...They think me, me, me...Just like capitalists do.

[Palingenisis]

I was a lumpen that's why I've had a gun to my head and been stabbed twice. Luckily I found a way out

What do you mean by lumpen though?

Lumpen isnt just a council estate kid who fucks up a bit.

[Fawkes]

They dont think in those terms though...Seriously at least in Ireland they seem very much tied into the system. The point is they dont think collectively as in they dont think about the wider community and how they have a stake in it...They think me, me, me...Just like capitalists do.

And just like a lot of individualistic, non-class conscious proletarians do. Isn't the whole point of raising class consciousness to get those that are subjugated to view things collectively and do away with the "me first" mentality engendered by capitalism? That is not just restricted to lumpens.

[Palingenisis]

]And just like a lot of individualistic, non-class conscious proletarians do.[/B] Isn't the whole point of raising class consciousness to get those that are subjugated to view things collectively and do away with the "me first" mentality engendered by capitalism? That is not just restricted to lumpens.

No they dont...They might not be socialist but they have some sense of solidarity or at least basic human decency.

[Summerspeaker]

There's so much confusion over this term. The one person I know who identifies as lumpen thinks of it as the bottom of the proletariat, specifically unemployed or irregularly employed folks. While not necessary correct, this definition has considerable spread. So we all need to be careful to define the category before making claims about it.

[Manic Impressive]

There's so much confusion over this term. The one person I know who identifies as lumpen thinks of it as the bottom of the proletariat, specifically unemployed or irregularly employed folks. While not necessary correct, this definition has considerable spread. So we all need to be careful to define the category before making claims about it.
That's so true I remember the last thread about this some confused comrades who thought that the disabled were part of the lumpenprolatariat

[synthesis]

Yeah, I always dread seeing this topic arise on this forum. The only useful understanding of the lumpenproletariat is that provided by its context in capitalist society. It is both the tragic excrement of capitalism and the deterrent that keeps proletarians "in their place." I might be working for an abusive boss and making less than minimum wage, but at least I'm not one of them - in jail, dead, hustling or somewhere in between.

[The Idler]

Lumpen = poor + counterrevolutionary (gangsters, pimps, dealers).
Lumpen is not simply poor (beggars, rag and bone men, homeless, living off unemployed welfare, council estate kid).
Nor is lumpen simply counterrevolutionary in employment (junior banker, conscripted soldier, debt collector, bailiff).

[Manic Impressive]

Lumpen = poor + counterrevolutionary (gangsters, pimps, dealers).
Lumpen is not simply poor (beggars, rag and bone men, homeles

The problem is that they are according to Marx which I think most of us can agree was not one of his more inspired moments.