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View Full Version : The Destruction of Capitalism can only be done on it's own rules



Blood
10th December 2010, 17:03
Basically, most revolutionaries do not understand how a system can be taken over. You can't just decide to go to your government building, kill everyone, and then hope for the best when you decide to do whatever you want to do.

No, in order to take on Capitalism, you HAVE TO use parts of it's own economic system in order to take it down. Also, you can't practice Communism or Socialism in a Capitalist economy. The ways of overthrowing the bourgeoisie cannot be done in a Communist sense. For example, modern use of money and invisible money (e.g. credit cards, stocks) is an invention of Capitalism. But in order to sustain a revolution, we need to use that money. We need to use the Capitalist economic system in order to take itself down. Mostly because that is the way it has built itself up. Paper for posters wasn't created by some random dude out in the middle of nowhere. It's created by corporations (en mass). Same as pencils, same as computers, same as almost every single thing you come by today (even organic food, which used to be a non-corporate fling, is now in the control of the Capitalists).

Another reason is that because economic resourcefulness of the Communist and Socialist movements will eventually be absorbed by the Capitalist movements. The whole green movement used to rely on the idea that wasting resources is useless. Demand and want were not the goals. Need was the goal. But the green movement, under the wing of Capitalism and the corporate media, turned into a corporate controlled entity. Whatever you want to create independently will eventually be sucked into Capitalism, mostly because Capitalism is meant to do that. Everything is controlled in Capitalism. The free market is a market that is freely controlled by a few corporate heads and CEOs. The free market, what most blind-eyed economists think, is that it is a system where everyone is free to trade or sell or create anything else they want. In reality, it means everyone has the ability to trade, sell, or create, but corporations usually buy them out before they become big, thus controlling the market.

Capitalism cannot be defeated by Communist realism. Idealism, yes. The ideas of Communism and Socialism must remain. But in order to overthrow the bourgeoisie, you must earn money under the Capitalist system. If that means going to college to learn more about things, then that is good. I can honestly say some of the most intelligent people I have met have been in college, because they WANT to learn. I also can say most people who are my friends or whom I have met who do not go to college end up taking on a conspiracist thinking process (e.g. the Illuminati have been controlling the world since ancient Egypt). Or they bring on some thought process to themselves such as Ayn Rand (which is probably the most unintelligible political and economic philosophy ever). Working a job at a Capitalist job would be necessary to fund the revolution. Many people say they can find jobs where it doesn't hurt anyone, but they don't understand that every job under the Capitalist system somehow takes the rights of the people and tries to demolish them. I work at a fast food restaurant. My boss tells us if anyone tries to start a Union, we will be fired. But do you know what my money from that place goes to? I donate to Socialist movements. I supply local kids with tools to help vandalize rich people. Is this activity of me working at a fast food restaurant going to help the revolution? If my money is going towards it, then yes, it will.

Capitalism's resources must be diverted from itself and onto us. This can only happen when we use Capitalism and gain it's money. The working class is called the "working class" for a reason. They work under the Capitalist system to overthrow it, because we are the majority. You can place any number of requirements to overthrow the bourgeoisie, but one of those requirements must be to use the resources of Capitalism to overthrow itself.

Savior
11th December 2010, 11:54
I agree completly, My motto is the opposite of Lenin, "We will sell the capitalists the rope for which they will hang themselves." beating Capitalism at its own game.

Zanthorus
11th December 2010, 12:47
I'm not sure what about this post warranted a thread really.


In reality, it means everyone has the ability to trade, sell, or create, but corporations usually buy them out before they become big, thus controlling the market.

The market is not problematic because it represents the power of any group of human beings.

ZeroNowhere
11th December 2010, 12:53
The market is not problematic because it represents the power of any group of human beings.
To be fair, the tendency towards centralisation is in fact the tendency towards capital expropriating everyone, to crudely paraphrase Marx, and hence becoming ever more a force separate from and above people. In fact, as per corporate personhood, capitals are now people. However, you are right in your essential point, namely that it's not how free or equal the market is that is the problem, but rather that it is a market.

Widerstand
11th December 2010, 12:59
So OP is saying that we need money to buy stuff? Oh gee!


To be fair, the tendency towards centralisation is in fact the tendency towards capital expropriating everyone, to crudely paraphrase Marx, and hence becoming ever more a force separate from and above people. In fact, as per corporate personhood, capitals are now people. However, you are right in your essential point, namely that it's not how free or equal the market is that is the problem, but rather that it is a market.

Kill capitalism, shoot capital!

Blood
11th December 2010, 13:12
"So OP is saying that we need money to buy stuff? Oh gee!"

Yes, because I have seen a few deluded people on here say they essentially don't need jobs to start a revolution. But that's not all I was saying. I am also saying that money will be a necessary component in bringing down Capitalism (among other things).

Savior
11th December 2010, 13:30
Ill say it again.

Beat the
Bourgeoisie as their own game.

I like the big letters...

Widerstand
11th December 2010, 13:43
You're saying we should attack capital by accumulating capital?

ZeroNowhere
11th December 2010, 13:50
To be fair, they may be referring to the Members' Forum thread about whether getting corporate money via the banner ads is in some way hypocritical. However, it's not clear that that would have merited a new thread and fairly long post, especially given that the original one has already been responded to adequately, and hardly involved 'most revolutionaries', so perhaps they had another reason.

In either case, it's not clear what this is doing in the 'Learning' Forum.

Thirsty Crow
11th December 2010, 14:44
Yes, because I have seen a few deluded people on here say they essentially don't need jobs to start a revolution. But that's not all I was saying. I am also saying that money will be a necessary component in bringing down Capitalism (among other things).

Saying this is equivalent to saying that people will get wet if they take a shower.

Widerstand
11th December 2010, 15:05
Saying this is equivalent to saying that people will get wet if they take a shower.

I bet you've never showered in a water-resistant poncho.

Cowboy Killer
11th December 2010, 15:25
I agree with Blood. If you want to do anything (make propaganda,transport materials,etc.) in this system you are forced to participate in it unless you know how to rip the system off, but then you run the risk of making martyrs.

Savior
11th December 2010, 16:04
You're saying we should attack capital by accumulating capital?

Well, this is just a theory, and if the current situation continues. The Capitalists are strong, perhaps too strong. I do believe in the working class 100%, but so much of it has been brainwashed by the media and various goverments. We must educate. To do that we must aquire our own media. or perhaps accumlate the nessary industries so if push comes to shove we can break the capitalists while keeping the infastucture intact for use After the revolution.

Hit The North
11th December 2010, 16:06
I agree with Blood. If you want to do anything (make propaganda,transport materials,etc.) in this system you are forced to participate in it unless you know how to rip the system off, but then you run the risk of making martyrs.

But of course, unless we move into the wilderness and set up an entirely self-sustaining community, everyone is forced to participate in some form or other in the capitalist system. Even people who refuse to work would be required to rely on benefits and to buy the commodities of the capitalist system. Even those organisations who politically oppose the capitalist system, such as revolutionary organisations, need to raise funds in order purchase access to materials and printing, etc. in order to disseminate their ideas.

So it is difficult to understand how this argument is in anyway controversial, or how it goes against the practice of communists. As Mennochio points out above, to suggest that we need to earn money is nothing but a truism.

In fact, for communists, it is the fact that workers are forced to sell their labour to the capitalist, before the capitalist enterprise can create value, which makes the working class best placed to overthrow the capitalist system. Marx and Engels argued this in contradiction to the earlier utopian socialists of the nineteenth century who, more or less, argued that socialism could be built through the isolated examples of enlightened communes.

Widerstand
11th December 2010, 16:12
But of course, unless we move into the wilderness and set up an entirely self-sustaining community, everyone is forced to participate in some form or other in the capitalist system. Even people who refuse to work would be required to rely on benefits and to buy the commodities of the capitalist system. Even those organisations who politically oppose the capitalist system, such as revolutionary organisations, need to raise funds in order purchase access to materials and printing, etc. in order to disseminate their ideas.

So it is difficult to understand how this argument is in anyway controversial, or how it goes against the practice of communists. As Mennochio points out above, to suggest that we need to earn money is nothing but a truism.

In fact, for communists, it is the fact that workers are forced to sell their labour to the capitalist, before the capitalist enterprise can create value, which makes the working class best placed to overthrow the capitalist system. Marx and Engels argued this in contradiction to the earlier utopian socialists of the nineteenth century who, more or less, argued that socialism could be built through the isolated examples of enlightened communes.

I may be wrong, but I think the OP is suggesting more than that: If I read it right, they want us to create for-profit businesses to out-compete "the capitalists."

tracher999
11th December 2010, 16:19
shoot the motherfuckers to hell with some good havy metal on the background is that not a problem i like that:lol:

Hit The North
11th December 2010, 16:20
I may be wrong, but I think the OP is suggesting more than that: If I read it right, they want us to create for-profit businesses to out-compete "the capitalists."

If this is the case, they are dead wrong. This would mean creating businesses that have a vested interest in maintaining the capitalist system, rather than overthrowing it. It would also mean participating in the exploitation and alienation of labour in order to make profit. Worse, in order to "out compete" regular capitalist enterprises, we would have to impose a greater level of exploitation of the workforce than they do.

Widerstand
11th December 2010, 16:25
If this is the case, they are dead wrong. This would mean creating businesses that have a vested interest in maintaining the capitalist system, rather than overthrowing it. It would also mean participating in the exploitation and alienation of labour in order to make profit. Worse, in order to "out compete" regular capitalist enterprises, we would have to impose a greater level of exploitation of the workforce than they do.

Not to mention that it falls to the misconception of personalized capital, that assumes the laws of capital development and capitalism would somehow not apply to capital "controlled" by leftists.

But I'd like for the OP to explain whether or not this was what they meant.

ZeroNowhere
11th December 2010, 16:26
I think that we could make a far greater contribution by becoming physicists and engineers, and working on things which increase productivity, and hence the technical composition of capital. Nonetheless, ultimately a revolution is the ultimate product of the working class organizing politically, and I don't think that it is likely that they shall do so under a communist banner at first, but rather simply as an opposition. And the further they've risen, the further they may fall, and the less they will tolerate it.

Hit The North
11th December 2010, 16:32
I think that we could make a far greater contribution by becoming physicists and engineers, and working on things which increase productivity, and hence the technical composition of capital.

I think we would be better becoming labour organizers, wherever we work, whatever our grade or skills-set, and agitating for opposition to capitalism and its ability to make the workers pay for its own crisis.

PilesOfDeadNazis
11th December 2010, 17:08
I, too, ask the OP to verify what they mean by the thread.


I supply local kids with tools to help vandalize rich people.
Also, what does this do to help the working class become either educated or active? I hope this isn't the only kind of ''Socialist organization'' you support.