What's up with soldiers

[Fawkes]

A lot of people on the left seem to be inline with the whole "I support the troops, not the war" or something like that, where they view low level military personnel as being victims and pawns and see the commanding officers and bourgeois as the real enemy. That's all fine and everything, but how come nobody on the left ever views cops in the same manner? With all the ACAB stuff on the left (not that I disagree with it) there seems to be a discontinuity in ideology. The only real difference between soldiers and cops is that one enforces and protects private property and the bourgeois in foreign environments and the other does so domestically.

[Widerstand]

Because Soldiers don't shoot at them.

[Blackscare]

Well, there are a lot of reactionary-ass soldiers out there, so I don't really hold one view concerning the whole group.

What should be much more concerning is the Officer Corps, which is not only obviously reactionary, but (IIRC, I'll try to find source on this) increasingly coming from the same 5 states. It's basically becoming a military caste, which is much harder to sway to revolutionary politics IMO. These people have their own specific culture and less connection with the rest of the country (in the US, I mean).

I don't see much of a difference between the modern US officer corps and the Cossacks of the Tsar. At least it seems to be shaping up that way.

[Meridian]

Because Soldiers don't shoot at them.
Are you saying cops shoot at people where you live?

[Palingenisis]

There is a huge difference between conscripts and mercenaires.

[Magón]

Well, there are a lot of reactionary-ass soldiers out there, so I don't really hold one view concerning the whole group.

What should be much more concerning is the Officer Corps, which is not only obviously reactionary, but (IIRC, I'll try to find source on this) increasingly coming from the same 5 states. It's basically becoming a military caste, which is much harder to sway to revolutionary politics IMO. These people have their own specific culture and less connection with the rest of the country (in the US, I mean).

I don't see much of a difference between the modern US officer corps and the Cossacks of the Tsar. At least it seems to be shaping up that way.

This, definitely this.

[Fawkes]

Because Soldiers don't shoot at them.

Tell that to an Iraqi.


There is a huge difference between conscripts and mercenaires.
I understand that, I'm talking about my personal experience living in the U.S. where the draft no longer exists.


Well, there are a lot of reactionary-ass soldiers out there, so I don't really hold one view concerning the whole group.

What should be much more concerning is the Officer Corps, which is not only obviously reactionary, but (IIRC, I'll try to find source on this) increasingly coming from the same 5 states. It's basically becoming a military caste, which is much harder to sway to revolutionary politics IMO. These people have their own specific culture and less connection with the rest of the country (in the US, I mean).

I don't see much of a difference between the modern US officer corps and the Cossacks of the Tsar. At least it seems to be shaping up that way.

Yeah, you're definitely right about the formation of a caste of sorts, and I don't think many on the left would disagree with you about the position held by military officers. What I'm more concerned with is the totally different attitudes exhibited toward a 1st year private in the Army and a first year NYPD cop.

[Widerstand]

Are you saying cops shoot at people where you live?

I'm saying I've never seen a Soldier with a police bat.

[Widerstand]

Tell that to an Iraqi.

I'm sure most Iraqi leftists don't think of Soldiers the way you described in the OP. You're pretty much misunderstanding my argument I assume. People can excuse the actions of their army's low Soldiers because they don't have to deal with them.

[Fawkes]

I'm sure most Iraqi leftists don't think of Soldiers the way you described in the P. You're pretty much misunderstanding my argument I assume. People can excuse the actions of their army's low Soldiers because they don't have to deal with them.

Yeah, I know, which is the origin of this inconsistency.

[gorillafuck]

I'm saying I've never seen a Soldier with a police bat.
If soldiers had police bats that would be a serious step down in equipment.

It's because in America (I'm talking about America since I am only aware of this in America, I don't know about this attitude in other places) it's basically seen as incredibly unacceptable to not support the troops. This is why so many leftists believe "support the troops, not the war". I've heard many leftists argue that it is the anti-war crowd that truly supports the troops.

[Wanted Man]

It seems like a kind of holdover from back when we still had the draft in the US, UK, etc. (some European countries still have some kind of mandatory military training). "It worked for the left in the 1970s, so why should we change the formula even though reality now is totally different?"

With a bit of imagination, you could even pin it on the tendency of the left to try and regard every issue in society as if it were still 1917, and soldiers are still faceless, starving peasant conscripts in World War I...

Of course, it's still true that a lot of people enlist out of economic necessity, but I wouldn't exactly say that our view of military service can be directly copied from how the left felt about it 40 or 90 years ago...

[Rafiq]

Because Soldiers don't shoot at them.

Shoot at who? If you mean civilians, yes, yes they do

[Widerstand]

Shoot at who? If you mean civilians, yes, yes they do

For your convenience, I'll point out the flaw of this argument:



I'm sure most Iraqi leftists don't think of Soldiers the way you described in the OP. You're pretty much misunderstanding my argument I assume. People can excuse the actions of their army's low Soldiers because they don't have to deal with them.

[gorillafuck]

For your convenience, I'll point out the flaw of this argument:
You're being very unclear.

What people are you referring to? Because people in occupied countries certainly have to deal with soldiers.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I wont support troops or cops, as soon as they obtain their badge or uniform, they become agents of oppression. However, that doesn't mean to say I wont understand the conditions that make young and disaffected workers sign up for the army. I sympathize with them and even feel for them, but the nature of the contract they sign and the work they do ultimately makes them enemies of our movement, and we will eventually have no choice but to oppose them.

[Fawkes]

You're being very unclear.

What people are you referring to? Because people in occupied countries certainly have to deal with soldiers.

Most of the people on this website live in countries that are not occupied by a foreign military force. I live in the U.S., Widerstand in Germany, we both subsequently interact with leftists that live in our home countries, both of which are unoccupied. Much of our interactions with leftists from other parts of the world are done through this website. Seeing as how most users of this website don't actively face repression and violence from a military force, many hold the view that soldiers are victims, unlike cops, because those are the people they're confronted by every day. That is the origin of this problem and why I find it necessary for it to be addressed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

A lot of people on the left seem to be inline with the whole "I support the troops, not the war" or something like that, where they view low level military personnel as being victims and pawns and see the commanding officers and bourgeois as the real enemy. That's all fine and everything, but how come nobody on the left ever views cops in the same manner? With all the ACAB stuff on the left (not that I disagree with it) there seems to be a discontinuity in ideology. The only real difference between soldiers and cops is that one enforces and protects private property and the bourgeois in foreign environments and the other does so domestically.First of all, police, unlike enlistees or conscripts can leave the job anytime they want if they find it distasteful. Police officers are more like military officers than enlistees or conscripts who are workers and will have to go back and get a job when their time is done. We can win over individual policemen to our politics, but then they'd have to quit being cops because you can't be a socialist cop, just imagine what happens when there is a strike... not only do you HAVE to cross the picket line, but your job will be protecting scabs and helping the bosses break the strike!

Enlistees are often lied to by recruiters and the US spends millions to advertise enlisting to working class kids with little prospects for employment - most ads and recruiters start by telling people the job training and skills they will learn. A policeman is generally a careerist and so they are not lied to about the benefits they are lied to about how the public will shoot them on sight if they detect weakness in cops and how protesters will shoot chemical agents against them and try and dose them with LSD (seriously, my relatives are cops and it's amazing the things they are told by their superiors in order to make them dehumanize the general population).

When a soldier is caught in something like Abu Grade torturing pictures, the military throws them under the bus and blames them for what is unspoken SOP - like burning Vietnamese villages or torturing prisoners. When a cop gets caught doing something bad, the police close ranks and do everything to perserve their special position in society. This special position in society is that cops are encouraged to live above the law - not only do they get paid much higher wages than most workers ($90K in Oakland) but they get the best legal defense through their "union" and they are virtually untouchable by the law.

Soldiers on the other hand, make shit money, and are treated as fodder in the military. The way that class is reflected inside the military means that solders who enlist for job opportunities realize too late that they just became indentured servants and that "success" at their job means killing and being shot at so that their higher ups get promotions.

[Rafiq]

For your convenience, I'll point out the flaw of this argument:

Ooh I didn't see that...

I just replied to yours first.

But Iraqi leftists despise the soldiers.

[Fawkes]

First of all, police, unlike enlistees or conscripts can leave the job anytime they want if they find it distasteful.

Yes, they'll be jobless, but yes.


We can win over individual policemen to our politics, but then they'd have to quit being cops because you can't be a socialist cop, just imagine what happens when there is a strike... not only do you HAVE to cross the picket line, but your job will be protecting scabs and helping the bosses break the strike!
That is no different from soldiers though. You can't be a socialist U.S. Marine any more than you can be a socialist LAPD officer.


Enlistees are often lied to by recruiters and the US spends millions to advertise enlisting to working class kids with little prospects for employment - most ads and recruiters start by telling people the job training and skills they will learn. A policeman is generally a careerist and so they are not lied to about the benefits they are lied to about how the public will shoot them on sight if they detect weakness in cops and how protesters will shoot chemical agents against them and try and dose them with LSD (seriously, my relatives are cops and it's amazing the things they are told by their superiors in order to make them dehumanize the general population).
They're careerists, yes, and that is a fundamental difference, but they are lied to just as much as soldiers are. Many cops go in with the impression that they'll be helping their community and "stopping bad guys", just like a lot of soldiers join to defend their country.


When a soldier is caught in something like Abu Grade torturing pictures, the military throws them under the bus and blames them for what is unspoken SOP - like burning Vietnamese villages or torturing prisoners. When a cop gets caught doing something bad, the police close ranks and do everything to perserve their special position in society.
That's not entirely true. An example would be the recent uncovering of taped conversations at a Brooklyn precinct where officers were briefed on the necessity of meeting quotas and other bullshit stuff, and some of the officers were then deemed to be mentally unfit and transferred.


they are virtually untouchable by the law
So are soldiers when in an occupied territory.


Soldiers on the other hand, make shit money, and are treated as fodder in the military. The way that class is reflected inside the military means that solders who enlist for job opportunities realize too late that they just became indentured servants and that "success" at their job means killing and being shot at so that their higher ups get promotions.

Okay, so some soldiers realize upon their enlisting what position they actually hold and what they are being used for, but some cops do also. Soldiers are continually brainwashed throughout their enlisted time as are cops.

Edit: 2,000 posts, WHAT! WHAT!?!?!

[FreeFocus]

It's because these leftists don't take opposition to imperialism seriously. They largely don't ever have to deal with the brutality of an imperialist military. They have no idea what it's like.

[Widerstand]

But Iraqi leftists despise the soldiers.

I literally said that...


I mean really people, it's not so fucking hard as you pretend it is to figure out what Fawkes is talking about. If he's talking about why people view soldiers as victims he's quite obviously not talking about the people that do not do so.

[theAnarch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts9TNlFVK1o

[What Would Durruti Do?]

People become soldiers for varying reasons. I agree with the inconsistency in ideology bit as this is true for cops as well but it's not hard to see where the confusion comes from. Soldiers and cops as entities are anti-working class and as communists we are all aware of this. However, not everyone that is apart of those entities are anti-working class. Some do it for the money or other benefits to their life goals. While it is easy to write off all soldiers and cops as class traitors, it's unfair to the cops and soldiers who do it to put food on the table to feed their families or because they had nowhere else to go and saw it as an escape from their previous life. In the end it is an individual choice and is pretty irrelevant to the class struggle.

Slaves have often fought on behalf of their masters, but that doesn't mean they ideologically supported what they were forced to do.

[Os Cangaceiros]

A lot of leftists have less of a negative reaction to soldiers than cops for the reasons that which doctor mentioned in this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/your-views-people-t132795/index.html?t=132795) thread:



Regardless of what you think of soldiers themselves, it is important to understand that the fate of a socialist revolution would hinge on the support of the military. In a world as militarized as we are now, a people's revolution would stand no chance against the huge and powerful militaries of countries like the US and China. While they may not necessarily perform any productive labor, they still belong to the working-class.

The defection of soldiers is seen as necessary for success, while the defection of police is not (for reasons which should be obvious).

[The Douche]

That is no different from soldiers though. You can't be a socialist U.S. Marine any more than you can be a socialist LAPD officer.



Hi.


They're careerists, yes, and that is a fundamental difference, but they are lied to just as much as soldiers are. Many cops go in with the impression that they'll be helping their community and "stopping bad guys", just like a lot of soldiers join to defend their country.


Most people I have known/met through out my life who were interested in being cops were racist, or wanted to beat people up, or were just bullies and wanted to bully people for a career. I know very few soldiers who joined "to defend their country", or who think that their job is to "defend the country". Those who do think that only adopted that position after undergoing some of the extensive mental conditioning the military puts one through.


So are soldiers when in an occupied territory.


False. Sometimes terrible things happen but they are not the norm, and there are very serious organizations set up for oversight.


Okay, so some soldiers realize upon their enlisting what position they actually hold and what they are being used for, but some cops do also. Soldiers are continually brainwashed throughout their enlisted time as are cops.



And the vast majority of soldiers spend their minimum enlistment and can't wait to get out, most cops spend 25 years in their jobs.

[Fawkes]

Hi.
Hello there.


Most people I have known/met through out my life who were interested in being cops were racist, or wanted to beat people up, or were just bullies and wanted to bully people for a career. I know very few soldiers who joined "to defend their country", or who think that their job is to "defend the country". Those who do think that only adopted that position after undergoing some of the extensive mental conditioning the military puts one through.
My personal experience has been pretty different. My dorm roommate last year wanted to be NYPD and he wasn't racist or a bully at all, he legitimately wanted to be a help to his community, and he had friends that were the same way. I've also met numerous people that were super nationalists and later went on to join the military. Of course I've also met racist pricks who wanna be cops and non-assholes who want to be in the military.



False. Sometimes terrible things happen but they are not the norm, and there are very serious organizations set up for oversight.
Military actions are predicated upon murder and destruction. All the dead civilians in Iraq are not the norm?


And the vast majority of soldiers spend their minimum enlistment and can't wait to get out, most cops spend 25 years in their jobs.
You're right, but I'm still having trouble with what appears to be an inconsistency in ideology.

[The Douche]

Hello there.


It was meant to point out the inconsistency in your assertion that one cannot be a socialist and a soldier, I am. (but not for much longer, thankfully)


My personal experience has been pretty different. My dorm roommate last year wanted to be NYPD and he wasn't racist or a bully at all, he legitimately wanted to be a help to his community, and he had friends that were the same way. I've also met numerous people that were super nationalists and later went on to join the military. Of course I've also met racist pricks who wanna be cops and non-assholes who want to be in the military.

So this is what it really comes down to in situations like this, isn't it, individuals. BUT when your buddy got into the NYPD and realized he was not helping the community, he has the option for quitting, the super nationalists who have their eyes opened by the experience of the military or combat, do not have such an option. So the cop really does choose to oppress people, the soldier, often, does so reluctantly and under penalty of law.


Military actions are predicated upon murder and destruction. All the dead civilians in Iraq are not the norm?

And the job of the police is to protect private property and maintain the subjugation of the working class, is that not a problem? In the context of bourgeois society, when the cops break the law they get a slap on the wrist (if anything), if soldiers break the laws of war there are consequences. I think we can find more instances of soldiers recieving disciplinary action than cops.


You're right, but I'm still having trouble with what appears to be an inconsistency in ideology.

Its mostly because soldiers are usually workers before enlisting, and are workers after their 4 or 6 year enlistment, cops are bourgeois tools for life.

[RedSonRising]

I know a soldier who is very disillusioned with the US government and realizes their imperialist ambitions very vividly, but could only go to a university under an ROTC program. He is familiar with the military structure and has based a future career on it, but he has lost a lot of incentive to really involve himself with the structure beyond necessity and certainly doesn't agree with the wars in the east. I realize more than most on which side I must stand if battle lines are drawn clearly and violently, and that the enemy is not some big evil phantom but flesh and blood, but I can't help but think there are others like him who deserve consideration.

[Dimitri Molotov]

i do think soldiers are a victim, however i think they are still part of the problem. victims or not, they still join the military (unless drafted) and chose to fight the wars we must end. i view soldiers and police the same, but i do not believe police are victims. the only reason i think the soldiers are victims is because alot of them i think were taught or "brainwashed" into thinking it is glorious and it is the right thing to do, or grew up in overly patriotic homes with veteran relatives, and they probably believe the war is justified, so in that sense, they are victims but still no excuse in my opinion.

[Manic Impressive]

A lot of leftists have less of a negative reaction to soldiers than cops for the reasons that which doctor mentioned in this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/your-views-people-t132795/index.html?t=132795) thread:
The defection of soldiers is seen as necessary for success, while the defection of police is not (for reasons which should be obvious).
I cannot imagine a situation where the military would defect in large enough numbers for a revolution to be possible. It was only possible in Russia because of it's previous defeats in Russo-Japanese war followed by the horrendous conditions of WW1. The soldiers were mostly conscripts or at least not professional armed forces like we have today. Today some individual soldiers might refuse to fire on their own citizens but they won't turn their guns on their own generals.

[La Comédie Noire]

It depends on the soldier. If they're going to be overly patriotic and gun ho assholes I will bait them at every opportunity. Like this one kid from my class who was a giant sexist and racist who joined up, he also got a giant American flag tattoo. Let's just say our conversation wasn't civil.

On the other hand, I work with a guy whose been in the guard for over 20 years and while he's not the most enlightened guy I know, he hates the police and the bosses. Although combat didn't bother him, he described it as "awesome."

But, yes, leftists have never seemed to answer this question satisfactorily.

[YouSSR]

It's because these leftists don't take opposition to imperialism seriously. They largely don't ever have to deal with the brutality of an imperialist military. They have no idea what it's like.

This is basically the answer. Cops beat us up they're fascist pigs. Soldiers kill some brown people far away, they're just victims. There's definitely an element of racism, and many people have family in the military and the rules don't apply to yourself. After all, there's no way my brother in the military is an imperialist murderer, he's just doing it for the money. The other guys in the unit are the actual savages.

[synthesis]

It seems to me that at least in the U.S., Vietnam was sort of the turning point in terms of the left's attitude towards American soldiers, from the "faceless conscripts" of WWI to the generally lionized soldiers of WWII to the disengaged attitude many people have today; partially because it is composed of so-called "volunteers," military people today are much more isolated in society than they were fifty years ago. Personally, I don't think we have to support what soldiers actually do in order to not treat them like shit.

[theAnarch]

My personal experience has been pretty different. My dorm roommate last year wanted to be NYPD and he wasn't racist or a bully at all, he legitimately wanted to be a help to his community, and he had friends that were the same way. I've also met numerous people that were super nationalists and later went on to join the military. Of course I've also met racist pricks who wanna be cops and non-assholes who want to be in the military.


Well thats why they have the acadamy, to weed out those sorts of people.

[FreeFocus]

I don't have positive opinions of either the police or the military in general as state institutions, but when talking about the American military and imperialist militaries more broadly, my opinion reverses compared to other people: there are some good police, who are interested in helping the community and actually do so. Of course their shit is misguided and they are still pigs, but nonetheless, that's there. They do accomplish some good, often on a regular basis. Imperialist troops, on the other hand, murder and suppress the independence of entire nations. They are used to sustain imperialism and the scale that they operate on is just another level up from police.

[fionntan]

A soldier/mercinary is only a victim when they zip the zip on the body bag. Fuck them..

[Jimmie Higgins]

When it comes down to it, grunts actually have a class interest in the ruling class interest in the ruling class not increasing its power, because when the domestic ruling class increases its power through imperial victories, it makes them that much more difficult to challenge back at home when enlistees and conscripts come back and have to be workers. The British Empire always used Irish soldiers in Africa or India - did these soldiers have an interest in a more powerful empire? Do Pakistani soldiers doing the bidding of the US have a class interest in a more powerful dictatorship at home and a more powerful US in the region?

Police, on the other hand actually benefit when the US is able to increase repression - right now when most public sector workers are taking hits on their Pensions and being laid-off, many cities in California are increasing police forces and Meg Whitman, in her unsuccessful run for Gov, promised to cut all pensions but to protect police and prison guard pensions. So in their position as cops, they have class-interests which are not only not aligned with working class interests (i.e. cops rarely decline to cross picket lines) but are opposed to it.

[Homage To Catalonia]

soldiers need to be liquidated and drunk by the thirsty masses, but TBH, im not that wise

[The Douche]

soldiers need to be liquidated and drunk by the thirsty masses, but TBH, im not that wise

Come liquidate me, bro.

[Homage To Catalonia]

wow we have a babykiller on the forum.

and one whos such a tough guy.

[Jimmie Higgins]

soldiers need to be liquidated and drunk by the thirsty masses, but TBH, im not that wiseKill all those Tsarist agents batteling on the eastern front, they're part of the problem and have no class interest in siding with the workers and ending the great war!:rolleyes:

[The Douche]

wow we have a babykiller on the forum.

and one whos such a tough guy.

Your baby is first on my list.;)

[Fawkes]

So this is what it really comes down to in situations like this, isn't it, individuals. BUT when your buddy got into the NYPD and realized he was not helping the community, he has the option for quitting, the super nationalists who have their eyes opened by the experience of the military or combat, do not have such an option. So the cop really does choose to oppress people, the soldier, often, does so reluctantly and under penalty of law.


When it comes down to it, a cop patrolling the streets of Chicago is no different from a soldier patrolling the streets of Baghdad, regardless of legal obligation, they are both fulfilling the same function.


And the job of the police is to protect private property and maintain the subjugation of the working class, is that not a problem?
Yes...? I don't really see what you're getting at there.


In the context of bourgeois society, when the cops break the law they get a slap on the wrist (if anything), if soldiers break the laws of war there are consequences.
The laws of war? Tell someone in Iraq that Americans have followed the laws of war when they're fighting an illegitimate, imperialistic war. Okay, so soldiers are more likely to be thrown under the bus than cops, but the bar for what is acceptable for soldiers is far higher than cops.


Of course there are "good people" that are cops and soldiers, but the jobs they partake in are fundamentally anti-working class, regardless of legal obligation.

[Widerstand]

Of course there are "good people" that are cops

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritische_Polizisten

A cop group concerned with human rights, civil rights, police brutality and a critical reflection of police practice.

Some of them even identify as radical leftists.

I mean, the fucking hell?

[The Douche]

When it comes down to it, a cop patrolling the streets of Chicago is no different from a soldier patrolling the streets of Baghdad, regardless of legal obligation, they are both fulfilling the same function.

Nobody is denying this. But if the soldier realizes it, he can do nothing, if the cop realizes it, he can quit right then and there. This is why, on the left, there is a greater understanding, not support, for soldiers as opposed to police.


The laws of war? Tell someone in Iraq that Americans have followed the laws of war when they're fighting an illegitimate, imperialistic war.

Unfortunately, imperialism is not illegal. I conducted myself in a manner in accordance with the laws or war, my conscience, and general human decency while I was in Iraq. And yes, Iraqis easily could tell the difference between me, and other soldiers, and I was told on multiple occasions, by insurgent prisoners, that I was "ok", that "more americans should be like me", that "if more americans were like you, we wouldn't be fighting", and even "if I see you in baghdad, I won't shoot".


Okay, so soldiers are more likely to be thrown under the bus than cops, but the bar for what is acceptable for soldiers is far higher than cops.

Yeah, it is generally accepted that cops will be pieces of shit who abuse their power. (the bar is lower for cops) Do soldiers abuse their power? Yes, and consequences are dealt out far more often when they can be caught. Cops are caught being shitheads daily, and nothing happens.


Of course there are "good people" that are cops and soldiers, but the jobs they partake in are fundamentally anti-working class, regardless of legal obligation.

This isn't the arguement though, is it? The question is not "are soldiers performing an anti-working class job", that answer is obvious, the question is, why is there tolerance/a desire to organize soldiers, and not police. I think it should be obvious.

[fionntan]

oh yes mister your not as bad as them other soldiers away and fuck ive seen your type before the nice guy approach and deal with yous like the rest of your ilk fuck of..

[fionntan]

Another thing why are imperalist murdering mercinaries aloud to post here the bastards.

[Ovi]

There can be nice policeman or soldiers, but that's not the point. All of them are constrained by material needs to join the police or the army. I don't support the army or the soldiers; if they have any desire to abolish capitalism, then they should strive to give up their position as class traitors.

[Palingenisis]

There can be nice policeman or soldiers, but that's not the point. All of them are constrained by material needs to join the police or the army. I don't support the army or the soldiers; if they have any desire to abolish capitalism, then they should strive to give up their position as class traitors.

I dont think you ever had to cross an Imperialist soldier in your life...Yes the "social services" in England pressure vunerable kids into the Army...But I remember as a kid encountering squaddies with mum on several occasions...Not a fun experience...So I can understand where fiontann is coming from.

[Ovi]

And that contradicts what I said how?

[empiredestoryer]

all soldiers are state terrorists

[The Douche]

Another thing why are imperalist murdering mercinaries aloud to post here the bastards.

Because I am a communist.

And I have never murdered anybody in my life.

I'm sure your strategy of incoherent insults will quickly rid your country of imperialism though, certainly a much more intelligent strategy that undermining the foundation on which the soldiers stand, and making an attempt to have them connect to the international ruling class instead of their national bourgeoisie, yes, the better option is clearly to rage on a message board.


all soldiers are state terrorists

Yes, soldiers and cops are servants of the bourgeoisie and operate against the working class, this was established in the first post, what was your point?

[The Douche]

I dont think you ever had to cross an Imperialist soldier in your life...Yes the "social services" in England pressure vunerable kids into the Army...But I remember as a kid encountering squaddies with mum on several occasions...Not a fun experience...So I can understand where fiontann is coming from.

Occupying forces, especially forces who occupy a country for hundreds of years need to figure out a way to dehumanize the enemy, they can't have soldiers see you and your mother as real people, then they might not be so willing to do their jobs.

Obviously the answer is not to alienate them further. And the interesting thing is, attacking them militarily, is not alienating. The average soldier doesn't hate the enemy for shooting at them, there is a certain respect in that.

To successfuly defeat a bourgeois army you have to combine military resistance with concrete, radical organizing, and no, shitting on people and pushing them farther into the arms of those sending them to attack you, is not going to accomplish anything.

[Palingenisis]

I'm sure your strategy of incoherent insults will quickly rid your country of imperialism though, certainly a much more intelligent strategy that undermining the foundation on which the soldiers stand, and making an attempt to have them connect to the international ruling class instead of their national bourgeoisie, yes, the better option is clearly to rage on a message board.


Context...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-accused-of-sickening-sex-assault-on-iraqi-boy-14-866482.html

Context...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/army-child-sex-scandal-1.826476

Context...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216015/More-British-soldiers-prison-serving-Afghanistan-shock-study-finds.html

Context..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7142413.stm

And I know from first hand accounts and very close to personal experience that the same thing happened in Ireland. So good luck convincing a west Belfast working class Republican that Imperialist troops are okay...

[Palingenisis]

Obviously the answer is not to alienate them further. And the interesting thing is, attacking them militarily, is not alienating. The average soldier doesn't hate the enemy for shooting at them, there is a certain respect in that.
.

When you shove guns in children's faces in close knit working class communities they are going to hate you. When you terrify children infront of their mums until they piss themselves you are going to be hated. When you feel up young boys on their way to school you are going to be hated.

[The Douche]

Context...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-accused-of-sickening-sex-assault-on-iraqi-boy-14-866482.html

Context...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/army-child-sex-scandal-1.826476

Context...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216015/More-British-soldiers-prison-serving-Afghanistan-shock-study-finds.html

Context..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7142413.stm

And I know from first hand accounts and very close to personal experience that the same thing happened in Ireland. So good luck convincing a west Belfast working class Republican that Imperialist troops are okay...

...


Find where I said imperialist troops are ok. Find where I demonstrate support for imperialism. Find where I "support the troops".


As a matter of fact, here is a post by me while I was in Iraq, where I talk about how my death is a victory for the working class.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1031140&postcount=28

[fionntan]

...


Find where I said imperialist troops are ok. Find where I demonstrate support for imperialism. Find where I "support the troops".


As a matter of fact, here is a post by me while I was in Iraq, where I talk about how my death is a victory for the working class.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1031140&postcount=28


See the blood money you took did you donate it back to the country you helped rape and plunder????

[Palingenisis]

...


Find where I said imperialist troops are ok. Find where I demonstrate support for imperialism. Find where I "support the troops".



Okay fair enough....But some people are sensitive about this issue, and very understandably so.

[syndicat]

Imperialist armies, however, have been known to break down. This happened to the Portugese army in the '70s, who rebelled against the fascist regime and endless colonial wars they were forced to fight.

Happened in the fraggings and other forms of dissent in American army in Vietnam. a comrade of mine joined the U.S. Army circa 1970 to help organize with the American Servicement's Union, and they formed a soldier's council at a base in Germany.

as Jimmie Higgins points out, class position of soldiers is not the same as cops. soldiers are obtained thru the poverty draft, they're paid crap, and then dumped once they come back and have health or other problems. of course they are hired to work to sustain capitalism through its need for an international buttkicking force. but history indicates there is more potential for mutinty and soldiers going over to the side of the people than with police.

police are supervisors of the streets. their day to day role is to intimidate the lower class. this tends to create a certain mentality among the police.

[The Douche]

Okay fair enough....But some people are sensitive about this issue, and very understandably so.

I agree it is a sensitive issue. And pardon my sensitivity, but when somebody acts with this sort of immaturity:


See the blood money you took did you donate it back to the country you helped rape and plunder????

I tend to lose it a bit.

It is not possible to undo what I have done, and of course, this user is not interested in constructing a real solution to the problem. I deal with a pretty minor (in comparison) case of PTSD, and I expect to find security and support from my comrades, not childish insults.



This is no way meant to portray myself, or by extension, soldiers, as the ultimate victims in these situations, I hope it will not be taken as such, its just a bit of insight into the personal side of this, for me.

[Trigonometry]

Because lots of kids here have family in the army but not all have family in the police