Illegal Immigrants = Scabs (???)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

My friend got laid off a couple years ago and got a job mowing laws. Sounds shitty, but he got paid several hundred bucks a week for 20 hours or so of pretty hard labor. Instead of going to work retail and earn slightly more, my friend began advertising with his now-partner and the 4 or 5 guys began to do all right. Sure, they weren't rolling in dough but for mowing lawns and keeping your apartment it's not horrible.

That was a while ago. Now my friend is working at a gas station because he can't compete. One guy in a truck can supply enough immigrant labor to take out any legal competition and still make more money.

I don't see how the immigrants are anything but scabs.

When all you have to make ends meet is selling your labor, and someone comes in and agrees to sell his labor for less than you can live on then he is a scab. He is taking money out of your pocket, he is robbing you of food, he is making your labor worth less.

And when all you have to sell is labor, someone who makes your labor worth less is your enemy and a scab.

That's just how I see it. And don't get me wrong, many immigrants come from nasty places and are in search of money to feed their families. And the man selling illegal labor to affluent people highlights the root problem. But the immigrants are still scabs, like someone who takes the non-union job at wal mart is a scab to all the ufcw people who will, as a result, find it harder to maintain their standards.

[Burn A Flag]

Well it's true, but they can't exactly get a legal job. It's not really their fault since they have no other opportunities. I understand that they're basically indirectly betraying the working class, but I can't see pinning the blame on them for it.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

No I'm not trying to blame immigrants. I'm just pointing out the instance.

[#FF0000]

My friend got laid off a couple years ago and got a job mowing laws. Sounds shitty, but he got paid several hundred bucks a week for 20 hours or so of pretty hard labor. Instead of going to work retail and earn slightly more, my friend began advertising with his now-partner and the 4 or 5 guys began to do all right. Sure, they weren't rolling in dough but for mowing lawns and keeping your apartment it's not horrible.

That was a while ago. Now my friend is working at a gas station because he can't compete. One guy in a truck can supply enough immigrant labor to take out any legal competition and still make more money.

I don't see how the immigrants are anything but scabs.

When all you have to make ends meet is selling your labor, and someone comes in and agrees to sell his labor for less than you can live on then he is a scab. He is taking money out of your pocket, he is robbing you of food, he is making your labor worth less.

And when all you have to sell is labor, someone who makes your labor worth less is your enemy and a scab.

That's just how I see it. And don't get me wrong, many immigrants come from nasty places and are in search of money to feed their families. And the man selling illegal labor to affluent people highlights the root problem. But the immigrants are still scabs, like someone who takes the non-union job at wal mart is a scab to all the ufcw people who will, as a result, find it harder to maintain their standards.

Except that non-union labor has the CHOICE to join a union or not.

If you're unskilled labor, you're not getting into the United States unless you have family living there, and even then there's a long, long, long line.

Further, it doesn't matter if illegal immigrants come here or not. This actually sounds similar to rhetoric used to get poor whites to fight in the Civil War for the Confederacy. "If slaves are freed, they'll take your jobs!", completely ignoring the fact that the slaves already have "their" jobs.

Whether labor comes here or capital goes there, people in other countries are going to work more for less, and I think it's a mistake to blame them. They're worker's like us, and we ought to support them in their struggle for fairer wages and better conditions.

[Ele'ill]

And don't get me wrong, many immigrants come from nasty places and are in search of money to feed their families. And the man selling illegal labor to affluent people highlights the root problem.

This.

If your friend lost his gas station job you would be upset with him for selling his labor some place for cheaper so that he could get a job?

[Ovi]

And when all you have to sell is labor, someone who makes your labor worth less is your enemy and a scab.

Every other worker makes your labor worth less. Welcome to the market. Wages are dictated by the competition among workers for the job, whether they're immigrant or not.

[synthesis]

CoAL, I think you're generally right, but in my opinion this doesn't call for opposition to illegal immigration so much as it calls for a reexamination of the concept of a "scab."

[Die Neue Zeit]

1) FYI, those Brits who helped form Marx's First International joined mainly out of "British jobs for British workers" sentiment.

2) I'm for matching the transnational mobility of labour with the establishment of a transnationally entrenched bill of workers’ political and economic rights, and with the realization of a globalized and upward equal standard of living for equal work, thus allowing real freedom of movement through instant legalization and open borders, and thereby precluding the extreme exploitation of immigrants. This is not about empty slogans of "freedom of movement," "open borders," "immediate legalization," etc.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I'm not trying to blame immigrants, I'm just pointing out that in the way they're exploited they, in some cases, directly undercut the workers who had already established the price of their labor. And like I said it doesn't merely apply to immigrants.

By the way I read somewhere that cesar chavez opposed immigration policy at the time. Did you know the us govt used to have programs to ship in mexican migrants to do all the work them ship them out? I did not until a little while ago, though it was interesting.

[Magón]

Like I always say, and it's even more apparent in todays world, there are two types of jobs in Mexico.

1. Involving one's self in the Drug World.

2. Being and Illegal Alien in the US.

As for Mexicans or any other immigrant being a scab, it can't be helped when you're under the impression that the US is a great place to live and work, and that since you're not so needy on so much, you can work for less pay than say a US Citizen. (Also have to factor in the matter that the Peso is a lot less than the USD, so working for just 5 USD is a lot in Peso terms. Especially when you start counting the hours.) Sad, but I wouldn't call them scabs, even though it might seem they are.

[RGacky3]

Thats not a scab, becasue there is no strike going on, they are just market operators, they arn't part of some union with native workers, they arn't scabs, they are victims of the system.

If they'res a strike and illigal workers brake it THEN they are scabs.

[ComradeMan]

Well creating a situation in which "cheap" immigrant labour undermines the established worker base of a society is a very clever tactic. This way you exploit the immgrant labour cheaply = capitalism, you undermine the proletariat = capitalism, and you create the perfect scenario for xenophobia/racism and divide the workers = capitalism.

[Bud Struggle]

The thing is that the USA and Mexico are only separate countries when it suits the rules of these countries for them to be separate. When it comes to business--they are both the same place. Businesses import and export freely, people cross the boarder with just a hint of protestation (if America wanted to close the boarder they could do it quickly and completely.) America lets Mexico have their own political system and as long as the leasers there don't cause too much trouble--they really don't care.

So the illegal immigrants aren't that at all--they are just another part of the same workforce, they just don't get paid as much and can be treated as disposable items. When the USA wants them here--everyone looks the other way, when we don't want them--then they have to go.

:)

[F9]

I have only 2 words for you. Fuck off

[danyboy27]

Immigrants are not scabs, they just do what they have to do to survive.

Immigration is actually a pretty good thing, more manpower mean more service and good avaliable for the people.

The problem isnt immigrants but the corporation who use them has a leverage to exploit their folks even more.

Capitalist use basicly everything has a leverage. You like your job? well sure you can be paid less than your co-worker and be used to gradually lower the wage of your co-worker.

Right now, america got so many immigrant and unemployed people, it could become a fucking powerhouse if the market would be abolished, and allow everyone to work for a decent living.
The steel and manifacturing industry could be rebuilt in a matter of year, public service could be restored, road would be built, university would be more accessible and the number of engineer and specialist would increase at an incredible pace.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The thing is that the USA and Mexico are only separate countries when it suits the rules of these countries for them to be separate. When it comes to business--they are both the same place. Businesses import and export freely, people cross the boarder with just a hint of protestation (if America wanted to close the boarder they could do it quickly and completely.) America lets Mexico have their own political system and as long as the leasers there don't cause too much trouble--they really don't care.

So the illegal immigrants aren't that at all--they are just another part of the same workforce, they just don't get paid as much and can be treated as disposable items. When the USA wants them here--everyone looks the other way, when we don't want them--then they have to go.

I agree a lot with this post, and I think it puts my sentiments into perspective. Instead of dealing with the United Farm Workers or other labor groups, it's more economically viable to ship in migrant labor and remove it when the work is done. I did some more reading into the bracero program, I find it fascinating that I didn't realize the US had a guest worker program of such magnitude. In the war it might be understandable, but afterwards it was clearly kept not only to provide growers with ultra cheap labor but also put the unions at a huge disadvantage. Which is why the ending of the program is considered a huge victory for Cesar Chavez and for the organization of farm workers in general.

Now, instead of that, growers pay much less for migrant labor and keep them in shanty towns like some parts of the cali valley and ship them out when the work is done. And like I said earlier, a guy with a truck and some spanish can do alright paying migrants very little while they do all the work. Then give them to INS.

Migrant workers are in a position that's like wage slave crossed with indentured servant. At least, migrant workers who work in agriculture.


I have only 2 words for you. Fuck off

Have a nice day and please, when your vocabulary expands a little bit, feel free to chime in.

[synthesis]

Thinking a little bit more about this, it seems obvious that part of the term "scab," when used in a pejorative manner, implies a conscious decision to betray class struggle on the part of the perpetrator. How many illegal immigrants are even remotely conscious of their role in domestic American capitalism?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ That's my biggest problem with the usage of the word "scab."

[synthesis]

Furthermore, sometimes that "anti-scab line" can be reactionary in itself. Back in the day, it was not unheard of for striking white workers to roll through black communities and just murder the fuck out of them because some black workers had "scabbed."

[Demogorgon]

I think you are being too harsh. The problem is the legal environment in which unskilled labour operates. United States citizens and other legal residents have certain (extremely basic) protections while illegal immigrants have absolutely nothing. This means that employers (who are hardly forced into hardship by meeting the ridiculously low minimum wage laws) can take on labour at even lower cost. If immigration laws were liberalised and those termed "illegal" were given the protection of labour laws then the problem would dry up because the "race to the bottom" would no longer involve some able to go lower than others.

Ironically those with the "steal our jobs" rhetoric make the problem "worse". Every time immigration law is tightened it gets harder for legal residents to find employment.

[Devrim]

My friend got laid off a couple years ago and got a job mowing laws. Sounds shitty, but he got paid several hundred bucks a week for 20 hours or so of pretty hard labor. Instead of going to work retail and earn slightly more, my friend began advertising with his now-partner and the 4 or 5 guys began to do all right. Sure, they weren't rolling in dough but for mowing lawns and keeping your apartment it's not horrible.

So basically your friend set up a small business, and got forced out of the market by a slightly bigger business.

That's capitalism.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

btw in my opinion, the line of immigration today is THE internationalist line. those who do not stand for the complete liberalization of the border are not communists

[ComradeMan]

My view:-

Immigration laws should be illegal.

Arbitrary lines drawn on a map divide people from people.

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant- economic migrant perhaps.

In Italy the same people who complain about illegal immigrants with racist overtones were quite happy to buy cheap tomatoes, employ "immigrants" in factories, as domestic servants and also... who is it who visits the prostitutes along the sides of the road- many of whom are "illegal" immigrants from Nigeria?

Cheap labour, cheap exploitation and hypocrisy.

[Demogorgon]

My view:-

Immigration laws should be illegal.

Arbitrary lines drawn on a map divide people from people.

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant- economic migrant perhaps.

In Italy the same people who complain about illegal immigrants with racist overtones were quite happy to buy cheap tomatoes, employ "immigrants" in factories, as domestic servants and also... who is it who visits the prostitutes along the sides of the road- many of whom are "illegal" immigrants from Nigeria.

Cheap labour, cheap exploitation and hypocrisy.
Now now, some racist Italians don't pick up prostitutes at the roadside. They summon them to their Prime Ministerial residences.

Seriously though, I completely agree with you.

[Bud Struggle]

Immigration already is "legal"--inexpensive labor can move anywhere they are needed WHEN they are needed. And then when they aren't needed--they are "exported" or jailed.

The system isn't broken. It's works fine for those who need cheap labor they don't want to be socially or economicly responsible for.

[ComradeMan]

Immigration already is "legal"--inexpensive labor can move anywhere they are needed WHEN they are needed. And then when they aren't needed--they are "exported" or jailed.

The system isn't broken. It's works fine for those who need cheap labor they don't want to be socially or economicly responsible for.

Yeah and it's not morally defensible in any way.

[RGacky3]

The fight should be for immigrant rights, thats where it should begin.

[Devrim]

If you're unskilled labor, you're not getting into the United States unless you have family living there, and even then there's a long, long, long line.

Or you just pay the money to the people smugglers and take your chances.

Devrim

[danyboy27]

Immigration already is "legal"--inexpensive labor can move anywhere they are needed WHEN they are needed. And then when they aren't needed--they are "exported" or jailed.

The system isn't broken. It's works fine for those who need cheap labor they don't want to be socially or economicly responsible for.

moral issue aside, this model isnt viable beccause of all the social, cultural and economical tension it create in both countries.

With lack of good monetary opportunities, illegal now and then join the organised crime, those who do a normal job is destroying the living condition of the working class inside that country thanks to those who exploit them, fueling xenophobic rethoric inside the working class, that is verry likely to end up in violence and bloodshed.

and when those ''illegal'' will be relatively numerous,you can be sure a lot of them will become pissed of being used has tool, and will paralyse their workplace, such movement is likely to damage the economy.

that why using immigrant has slaves is not viable, its inherently instable.

scrapping the current way to handle immigration would reduce crime and stimulate the market, make the whole thing more stable.

[#FF0000]

Or you just pay the money to the people smugglers and take your chances.

Devrim

Oh, of course. But I'm talking about entering the country legally. :lol:

[PoliticalNightmare]

I hate to use laissez-faire arguments, but sometimes they are relevant, (yes, even to communism!)

(a) Legalise immigration (cut out most of the procedures - let more people in to the country legally) and this will not be a problem - they will be working for minimum wage, etc. (well the bit about minimum wage is not laissez-faire but...)
(b) Once "legalised", immigrants not only provide a "cheap source" of labour (though they would be working at minimum wage) but they also come to the country with a need for goods and services. E.g. it is a local shop they go to to purchase groceries therefore they are providing local citizens with new opportunities for labour/ they are providing new opportunities for new businesses to open up, etc.
(c) Of course, it will be the capitalist class that ultimately benefits from immigration but that is the way the system works, unfortunately: not a problem at all under communism.

Most economies have gone through massive boom periods thanks to immigration, Australia being a huge example. Of course, as ever it is the capitalist class that profits but that is not to say ordinary workers do not profit as well. Overall, I would be foolish to say that there are no disadvantages from immigration but the pros definitely outweigh the cons. Also, immigrants trying to escape from impoverished backgrounds and tyrannical regimes also provide an "incentive" for their governments to improve working conditions, etc.: the strain of a diminishing population on a government is huge.

[ComradeMan]

Most economies have gone through massive boom periods thanks to immigration, Australia being a huge example. Of course, as ever it is the capitalist class that profits but that is not to say ordinary workers do not profit as well. Overall, I would be foolish to say that there are no disadvantages from immigration but the pros definitely outweigh the cons. Also, immigrants trying to escape from impoverished backgrounds and tyrannical regimes also provide an "incentive" for their governments to improve working conditions, etc.: the strain of a diminishing population on a government is huge.

....disadvantages from immigration but the pros definitely outweigh the cons. Also, immigrants trying to escape from impoverished backgrounds and tyrannical regimes also provide an "incentive" for their governments to improve working conditions, etc.: the strain of a diminishing population on a government is huge.

I agree with some of your points but not this one. I think the people leaving the original countries justs means the governments wherever they come from don't have to implement human rights, labour rights or welfare systems that are acceptable.

The thing is that imperialist/capitalist forces know this and this means they have a steady supply of cheap labour with no rights whilst at the same time profitting from the low costs of raw materials in the "original" countries with brutal regimes. I believe it's all part of the same big "game". Of course these same supporters of imperialism/capitalism are the hypocrites who complain about the ghettoisation of their cities and how immigrants are ruining their communities etc yet at the same contributing to this phenomenon.

[RGacky3]

The argument about immigrants hurting or helping workers is kind of like arguing if gypsies in the concentration camp made it worse for the jews, since there was less food to go around, maybe, but attacking the gypsies is'nt gonna change the situation, getting rid of the camp will.

(I can all ready anticipate people taking this literally, I'm not saying the US is as bad as a concentration camp, its an anaology stupid.)

[maskerade]

are there no unions which attempt to organize illegal immigrants?

perhaps it's because the union movement in america is pretty much dead, but there are still lessons to be learned from Sweden's syndicalists, for example - they organize illegal immigrants, and they even blockade places which exploit illegal immigrants by paying them much lower than any form of minimum wage.

[RGacky3]

Yeah there are unions that organize illigal immigrants, but your right about sweedens syndicalists, unions in the US gotta get more militant and stop trying to be part of the system, although there are a lot starting to do that, so things are going that direction.

[La Comédie Noire]

I don't see how the immigrants are anything but scabs.



someone who makes your labor worth less is your enemy and a scab.



No I'm not trying to blame immigrants.

With the language you use it's really hard to escape that conclusion.

But let's say you do blame immigrants. What do you propose we do? Deport them? I think the better method is to force businesses to pay the same wages as any other worker, then they'd have no choice, but to hire domestic labor.

Not like immigrant labor has that much of an effect on the economy anyways. It's over-exaggerated by right wing pundits in order to whip up patriotic sentiment.


My friend got laid off a couple years ago and got a job mowing laws. Sounds shitty, but he got paid several hundred bucks a week for 20 hours or so of pretty hard labor. Instead of going to work retail and earn slightly more, my friend began advertising with his now-partner and the 4 or 5 guys began to do all right. Sure, they weren't rolling in dough but for mowing lawns and keeping your apartment it's not horrible.

Who'd your friend have to under cut in order to get the business in the first place? And is he a student? Cause personally having done landscaping and roofing before I'd rather work with the illegal immigrant than some young guy trying to make cash.

1. They work harder even if they get paid the same.
2. They actually know what they're doing.

[PoliticalNightmare]

....disadvantages from immigration but the pros definitely outweigh the cons. Also, immigrants trying to escape from impoverished backgrounds and tyrannical regimes also provide an "incentive" for their governments to improve working conditions, etc.: the strain of a diminishing population on a government is huge.

I agree with some of your points but not this one. I think the people leaving the original countries justs means the governments wherever they come from don't have to implement human rights, labour rights or welfare systems that are acceptable.

The thing is that imperialist/capitalist forces know this and this means they have a steady supply of cheap labour with no rights whilst at the same time profitting from the low costs of raw materials in the "original" countries with brutal regimes. I believe it's all part of the same big "game". Of course these same supporters of imperialism/capitalism are the hypocrites who complain about the ghettoisation of their cities and how immigrants are ruining their communities etc yet at the same contributing to this phenomenon.

What I mean is that if, for instance Britain started employing a tyrannical regime, disregarded human rights, scrapped minimum wage laws and decent working conditions. Lets say that the USSR said, "Hey guys, come and work over here, we'll pay you better and give you free beer (it's communism)!" and the workers all decided to pack up their stuff and go over to the USSR, obviously the result would be that Britain's economy would suffer a tremendous deal. The result would be, of course, that the British government would have to start employing better working conditions, etc. Less workers would go over to the USSR as a result and so the economy of the USSR would not be strained too deeply (though, of course, as mentioned previously, immigration is more often than not, very good for an economy - though, yes too much of a good thing can be a bad thing).

[ComradeMan]

What I mean is that if, for instance Britain started employing a tyrannical regime, disregarded human rights, scrapped minimum wage laws and decent working conditions. Lets say that the USSR said, "Hey guys, come and work over here, we'll pay you better and give you free beer (it's communism)!" and the workers all decided to pack up their stuff and go over to the USSR, obviously the result would be that Britain's economy would suffer a tremendous deal. The result would be, of course, that the British government would have to start employing better working conditions, etc. Less workers would go over to the USSR as a result and so the economy of the USSR would not be strained too deeply (though, of course, as mentioned previously, immigration is more often than not, very good for an economy - though, yes too much of a good thing can be a bad thing).

It's not a fair comparison. The sad truth is that even the shit life they have in the West is better than the shit life they have in their home countries. The countries they are leaving do not have much of a developed labour class or industrialisation to start with. You also presume that the assholes in charge of some of these countries actually give a shit as long as they've got a presidential palace, Swiss account, limousine and a yacht- with first world trained armed guards of course and the emergency helicopter for when the shitstorm explodes. ;)

[brigadista]

Quite frankly calling immigrant workers scabs is ludicrous----

this article from May this year puts it into perspective in the uk and shows the problem is the usual...

http://thecommune.co.uk/2009/06/15/soas-occupied-free-the-cleaners/

SOAS (a college of the University of London) has been occupied by student and supporters over the immigration raid which we reported recently. SOAS management appear to have been involved in the raid, but in any case it is clear that it represents an attack on workers as a response to their decision to organise for a living wage. The ‘two tier workforce’ is not a necesary fact, it is created and enforced through state violence.

45-50 Immigration police entered through the fire doors and the main entrance to the room and surrounded the cleaning staff; the police officers were in riot gear. They cleaners were locked in the room and then led one by one into another room, where their immigration status was checked during which they had no representation or even a translator (many staff are native Spanish speakers). A lot of the cleaners were in emotional distress. A trade union representative was refused access to the staff. The raid was instigated by the cleaning contractor ISS who requested the police action. Two members of SOAS Management were present during the raid liasing with the police, suggesting that they had prior knowledge of the raid.9 Cleaners, five of whom are UNISON members were taken into detention. One detained cleaner was six months pregnant, she is thought to have collapsed during the events.





Press release from the occupation

SOAS directorate block occupied over brutal deportation of SOAS cleaners
University cleaners who won living wage detained after dawn raid

Students and allies at the University of London’s School of School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) have occupied the university today to protest against managers’ attacks on migrant workers.

Nine cleaners from the university were taken into detention after a dawn raid by immigration police on Friday.

Five have already been deported, and the others could face deportation within days. One has had a suspected heart attack and was denied access to medical assistance and even water. One was over 6 months pregnant. Many have families who have no idea of their whereabouts.

The cleaners won the London Living Wage and trade union representation after a successful “Justice for Cleaners” campaign that united workers of all backgrounds and student activists.
Activists believe the raid is managers’ “revenge” for the campaign.

Immigration officers were called in by cleaning contractor ISS, even though it has employed many of the cleaners for years. Cleaning staff were told to attend an ‘emergency staff meeting’ at 6.30am on Friday (June 12).

This was used as a false pretext to lure the cleaners into a closed space from which the immigration officers were hiding to arrest them.

More than 40 officers were dressed in full riot gear and aggressively undertook interrogations and then escorted them to the detention centre. Neither legal representation nor union support were present due to the secrecy surrounding the action. Many were unable to communicate let alone fully understand what was taking place due to the denial of interpreters.

SOAS management were complicit in the immigration raid by enabling the officers to hide in the meeting room beforehand and giving no warning to them.

The cleaners were interviewed one by one. They were allowed no legal or trade union representation, or even a translator (many are native Spanish speakers).

The cleaners are members of the Unison union at SOAS. They recently went out on strike (Thursday 28 May) to protest the sacking of cleaner and union activist .

The occupation has issued a list of demands to SOAS management:........

One of the detained cleaners today stated, “We’re honest people not animals. We are just here to earn an honest living for our families. SOAS management are being unfair.”

[brigadista]

Or you just pay the money to the people smugglers and take your chances.

Devrim

you may also be in debt slavery to your"travel agent" when you arrive at your destination and forced to pay back the "travel expenses" by working long hours for no money to pay off the debt..

[PoliticalNightmare]

It's not a fair comparison. The sad truth is that even the shit life they have in the West is better than the shit life they have in their home countries. The countries they are leaving do not have much of a developed labour class or industrialisation to start with. You also presume that the assholes in charge of some of these countries actually give a shit as long as they've got a presidential palace, Swiss account, limousine and a yacht- with first world trained armed guards of course and the emergency helicopter for when the shitstorm explodes. ;)

Yeah, but I'm talking about brutal tyrannical regimes here where there are mass murders and political suppression and what not, not someone immigrating to a shit country from a slightly shittier country.

[ComradeMan]

Yeah, but I'm talking about brutal tyrannical regimes here where there are mass murders and political suppression and what not, not someone immigrating to a shit country from a slightly shittier country.

That's what I'm talking about too.

[Vanguard1917]

The idea that American workers should have some sort of privileged position in the American labour market is social chauvinism plain and simple. As another poster pointed out, socialists are internationalists and see complete freedom of movement of labour as the only progressive policy in response to the bourgeoisie's immigration laws, which are largely a product of 20th century imperialism.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

What you call "social chauvinism" are economic 'rights' which were guaranteed American workers after many long and bloody labor battles. Yes, many have fallen by the wayside and are no longer respected by corporations, but many workers benefit from things like minimum wage laws, 40 hour workweek, paid sick time and vacation time, employer covered insurance, and perhaps even a pension. I do not want to sound like I'm blaming immigrants for the decline of these things as doing such would be overly simplistic and wrong. But a group of workers who are not obeying minimum wage laws, for example, should be made to. And in that I mean the employers who exploit immigrants in that fashion.

Though before liberalisation of the border happens I really think we need to do something about the war on drugs.

[#FF0000]

I do not want to sound like I'm blaming immigrants for the decline of these things as doing such would be overly simplistic and wrong. But a group of workers who are not obeying minimum wage laws, for example, should be made to. And in that I mean the employers who exploit immigrants in that fashion.

Yeah I think we all mostly agree then.

[RGacky3]

But a group of workers who are not obeying minimum wage laws, for example, should be made to. And in that I mean the employers who exploit immigrants in that fashion.



So its the workers not obaying the minimum wage laws? Again, blaiming the victim is rediculous.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I thought I made it clear that it is the employers who are exploiting immigrant labor in this fashion that should be the focus.

But, well, technically I suppose that when someone works for less than minimum wage that they are breaking minimum wage laws. But like you said to blame the exploited and not the exploiter would be ridiculous.

[RGacky3]

But, well, technically I suppose that when someone works for less than minimum wage that they are breaking minimum wage laws.

Legally the employer is the one responsible, obviously.

But using words like scab and the such are not helpful when discussing this type of things. Scabs are people who brake strikes, not people who compete in the labor market.

[Vanguard1917]

I do not want to sound like I'm blaming immigrants for the decline of these things as doing such would be overly simplistic and wrong.

But you are indeed blaming immigrants, by basically arguing that they're making life harder for Americans.

[Bud Struggle]

But you are indeed blaming immigrants, by basically arguing that they're making life harder for Americans.

But if that is what is happening--then that is what is happening. I don't think it's "blaming"--it is just stating a fact.

[RGacky3]

But its not happening, and blaming is ALWAYS stating a suposed "fact."

[Bud Struggle]

But its not happening, and blaming is ALWAYS stating a suposed "fact."

So you are saying that what Abe said--didn't happen? Here in Florida I see it happen all of the time. Undocumented Mexicans have taken over the entire lawn care business--as well as the roofing business. They bid low and are more than happy to make less than minimum wage. It's about the same thing as Abe discribed.

I could have hired them in my business. They mostly all have "pretty good" fake papers and if you question them about the papers--will try to make a deal with you to pay them under the table at reduced rates.

Gack, I'm shocked you never heard of these things going on!

[RGacky3]

Of coarse I know undocumented imigrants working for less, what you've failed to prove is the actual accusation, which is they've been making life worse for American workers, thats because, its not a fact that they have been making life worse for American workers.

[Bud Struggle]

Of coarse I know undocumented imigrants working for less, what you've failed to prove is the actual accusation, which is they've been making life worse for American workers, thats because, its not a fact that they have been making life worse for American workers.


You are right there. You can always find isolated cases of anything--but I can't recall any general statistics on the subject. Now their presence in the US is a great cause of disaffection among the Tea Party Class, but have they actually been HURT by them? I don't know.

[RGacky3]

The Tea Party is'nt a class, they are people from many classes, most of whome have been suckered into blaiming their problems on powerless people like immigrants rather than teh powerful (corporations), but there is no evidence that immigrants damage the well being of Americans.

[Bud Struggle]

The Tea Party is'nt a class, they are people from many classes, most of whome have been suckered into blaiming their problems on powerless people like immigrants rather than teh powerful (corporations).

It was a joke. :)

[GPDP]

I don't give a flying fuck if you say you don't actually mean to blame immigrants for the worsening living conditions of the American working class. You called them scabs. You called ME a scab. You called me and my fellow undocumented brothers and sisters class enemies.

You can rot here in OI for all I care, until you apologize for that.

[Lt. Ferret]

scab.

[Demogorgon]

So you are saying that what Abe said--didn't happen? Here in Florida I see it happen all of the time. Undocumented Mexicans have taken over the entire lawn care business--as well as the roofing business. They bid low and are more than happy to make less than minimum wage. It's about the same thing as Abe discribed.

I could have hired them in my business. They mostly all have "pretty good" fake papers and if you question them about the papers--will try to make a deal with you to pay them under the table at reduced rates.

Gack, I'm shocked you never heard of these things going on!
That happens and happens on a considerable scale but it is not the "immigrants" fault, as I remarked earlier, employers have found a way to undercut American workers by exploiting desperate Mexicans, but that is the employers fault, the immigrants are just another victim of all this.

As I said only by removing all restrictions on immigration and tightening workers rights can this situation be prevented.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I don't give a flying fuck if you say you don't actually mean to blame immigrants for the worsening living conditions of the American working class. You called them scabs. You called ME a scab. You called me and my fellow undocumented brothers and sisters class enemies.

You can rot here in OI for all I care, until you apologize for that.

Sad but true, workers who are not unionized hurt the working class that is unionized. Workers who work for less than others can legally work for, do indeed hurt that group. Workers who take a job and don't get the healthcare, vacation time, pension, and other benefits that have been paid for in blood undercut those workers who maintain these things and make it an easy decision for employers to replace them.

As gack pointed out, I misued the word scab. But it remains the case that in the way immigrants are getting fucked provides a means for employers to further fuck established labor.

In no way have I suggested deportation, anti-hispanic labor laws, or any other such xenophobic bullshit. But until immigration reform is brought about for the millions of undocumented workers who will now have to "play by the rules" (ie benefit from US labor victories) there is going to be a point of contention there between the US working class and the influx of migrants, a contention which may continue to hinder the resurgence of the labor movement.

Just a fact, if the left is unwilling to deal with it then...well, the left would at least be consistent in making misopportunities, not providing adequate vision, and remain largely meaningless in this country.

[Bud Struggle]

^^^^Excellent post.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

A scab is someone who undermines a worker's organization, not somebody who undermines another worker who's out for himself to begin with. Your friend (who I suspect you've pulled out of your butt for the sake of this discussion) still has time to figure out that in order to protect his job he has to protect everyone's job: UNITED WE BARGAIN, DIVIDED WE BEG.

And for starters, maybe it's time he learn some Spanish, go talk to these guys, see how their interests and his coincide as workers. Right now my union is gearing up for a strike, or rather being pushed into a strike by the bosses. I've been reaching out to the potential "scabs," because when push comes to shove they're not only the greatest threat, they're also, potentially,our best allies. Some unions have figured this out. Some haven't.

[#FF0000]

Just a fact, if the left is unwilling to deal with it then...well, the left would at least be consistent in making misopportunities, not providing adequate vision, and remain largely meaningless in this country.

Leftists in the southwest have been pushing for getting undocumented workers into unions and organized for awhile now.

[Bud Struggle]

Leftists in the southwest have been pushing for getting undocumented workers into unions and organized for awhile now.

But overall there is nothing to deal with. The workers come when we need them--work for low wages. Don't draw (much) from social and economic welfare and then are made to go away when they are not wanted.

[#FF0000]

They're generally pretty receptive to the idea of joining the Union. The trouble is many don't want to because they're afraid they'll be found out and deported.

[Bud Struggle]

They're generally pretty receptive to the idea of joining the Union. The trouble is many don't want to because they're afraid they'll be found out and deported.

Of course. If they join the union they have to be hired "on the books" which is illegal for the employer to do. (Well, "off the books" is illegal, too--but there's no paaper trail.)

[#FF0000]

Interesting thing! A lot of undocumented workers are on-the-books with fake SSNs. This is why they actually end up paying taxes, because the IRS doesn't care if the SSNs are real or not.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

That is very true. Employers (not individuals) seem to have little trouble in dealing with the INS, but the IRS, well, that's a whole different beast.

And I agree with Best Mod, the push for immigration reform from the labor movement does exist, and I whole heartedly support it. The United Farm Workers, for example, have been very adamant in both opposing deportation and calling for reform. For example, from the UFW site,



Farm workers and their allies led by United Farm Workers President and Catholic Bishop Richard Garcia will mark May Day, Saturday May 1, in Salinas with a 7 p.m. UFW-organized rally channeling widespread outrage over Arizona’s new anti-immigrant law into the push for comprehensive national immigration reform. Similar UFW-led events are scheduled the same day in Santa Rosa, Oxnard and several cities in Central Valley while demonstrations are held across the nation demanding Congress and President Obama enact a comprehensive reform law.

The California UFW-sponsored events are part of Reform Immigration FOR America, a national campaign supporting reforms that would allow about 12 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S. to earn legal status. Protesters will also condemn the recent Arizona law targeting Latinos and encouraging racial profiling.

“The Arizona anti-immigrant law is not the answer,” said the UFW’s Rodriguez, “The answer comes from AgJobs and comprehensive immigration reform. The Arizona bill not only singles out Latinos, but it specifically discriminates against those with dark complexion and humble attire,”



http://www.ufw.org/_board.php?mode=view&b_code=news_press&b_no=6457&page=1&field=&key=&n=655

[Kaze no Kae]

No I'm not trying to blame immigrants. I'm just pointing out the instance.
Basically the point is that while scabbing is always something to avoid if at all possible, it's excusable when there are no acceptable choices. And the solution in this case is regularisation of all migrants so that (apart from the obvious point of abolishing institutional prejudice) they can't be used to undermine other workers' pay and conditions

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Abe. You do know that it is the bosses that are bringing down the wages and that the workers are just following it? The workers are allways being divided depending on gender, culture, color, age and so on. Do you consider young workers for being scabs since they tend to accept a lower wage then theire older co-workers and therefor slow down the possible raise? Once again 'scab' is aterm for strike-breakers and are not meant to be miss-used like this.

[Module]

Immigrants are blamed for taking jobs because it is 1. consistent with existing social prejudice; 2. intellectually and physically easier than blaming unscrupulous employers.
People who move to a country for work that earns them a pittance because they want a better life for themselves and their families should be seen as fellow victims of a desperately unfair economic system, not 'enemies' of the working class. If they had a choice between earning below the minimum wage and staying where they are or not working at all, then its quite obvious they would not choose the former unless the latter meant living in even more desperate poverty.
I don't see how this is any different from, say, a more highly skilled worker being hired over others - that worker has economic advantages over others, in this case having skills, which deprive others of the same job. Well, its not as if that worker has colluded with the bourgeoisie to disadvantage other workers in comparison to themselves, its the employers that chose to employ that worker for their own benefit.
Unless you're suggesting that the entire working class just boycott employment in solidarity with the unemployed, lest they be branded "scabs", I don't know what else you expect.

[RGacky3]

Of course. If they join the union they have to be hired "on the books" which is illegal for the employer to do. (Well, "off the books" is illegal, too--but there's no paaper trail.)

Which is why unions (many of them are doing this BTW), need to think outside the box, like organizing unions that are not officially regestered, which bares them from some legal protection (which is'nt really a big deal since its never enforced), but it also opens them up to being more creative, there are mayn ways to organize other than the standared AFL-CIO style stright up regestered union with announced strikes and the such.