IRA take community action against Rapist.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Fair play to the volunteers who carried this out a resounding well done.
This sends a clear message to all sexual devients that working class justice is not far away.

A RAPIST who was shot seven times in the legs and genitals in a paramilitary attack in Belfast last month has lost his genitals, after surgeons were unable to save them.
Darren Murdoch was wounded after masked men broke into a house he was staying in, in Ardoyne on the northside of the city, on November 15 and fired at his groin, abdomen and legs, striking him seven times.
The Irish News reports that though surgeons were able to save his legs, which were severely damaged, they were unable to salvage his penis and testicles. Murdoch will require permanent medical treatment for the rest of his life as a result.
Óglaigh na hÉireann, a splinter group from the continuity IRA, has claimed responsibility for the attack, with a spokesman saying the wounds were “punishment befitting of the crime”.
Local MLA Alban Maginness of the SDLP condemned the shooting as “animalistic”, while Community Restorative Justice said it was “barbaric” but ultimately “ineffective”.
Murdoch was jailed for ten years in 2002 after confessing to raping a 30-year-old woman in her home on St Stephen’s Day, 2001. He served eight years and remains on the sex offenders’ register for life.

[fionntan]

your not really in the workers party/sticks are you:lol::lol:

[Yazman]

Can we get a source on this please? I'm not challenging the authenticity, I just want to know where it was sourced from.

Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure what to think of this at the moment. Having done his time I'm not sure this is really something I condone, although its definitely something to consider and I can't say I've made up my mind just yet.

[fionntan]

In a mater of fact there was two rapist clipped in the same street in the space of a few days in ardoyne him being one. It would seem the community dont want these filth living amoung them.

[fionntan]

Can we get a source on this please? I'm not challenging the authenticity, I just want to know where it was sourced from.

Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure what to think of this at the moment. Having done his time I'm not sure this is really something I condone, although its definitely something to consider and I can't say I've made up my mind just yet.


I live in the place it happened and the community as a whole welcome the actions.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Can we get a source on this please? I'm not challenging the authenticity, I just want to know where it was sourced from.

Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure what to think of this at the moment. Having done his time I'm not sure this is really something I condone, although its definitely something to consider and I can't say I've made up my mind just yet.

I cant post links yet.

[Fat Cat Killer]

your not really in the workers party/sticks are you:lol::lol:
The Workers Party dose not prohibit its members from having personal opinions on things.
Unlike some.

[fionntan]

http://www.thejournal.ie/rapist-loses-genitals-after-being-shot-seven-times-2010-12/

[Fat Cat Killer]

Blowing of the genitals of a rapists/peados is the only way to deal with the dirt.

[Milk Sheikh]

When will people realize that punishment isn't going to solve the problem of crime and, if anything, it might even make matters worse?

[fionntan]

When will people realize that punishment isn't going to solve the problem of crime and, if anything, it might even make matters worse?

So at present should we tolerate sex offenders living in our community i agree its a short term fix but one that has to taken in the present times. And is demanded by the community.

[Fat Cat Killer]

When will people realize that punishment isn't going to solve the problem of crime and, if anything, it might even make matters worse?

Your right punishment will not solve crime. Severe punishment on the other hand will.

[Boboulas]

"If having your house stormed by masked intruders and being shot in the balls seven times is “punishment to fit the crime,” then what’s the fitting punishment for storming someone’s house and shooting him in the balls seven times?"

[Fat Cat Killer]

"If having your house stormed by masked intruders and being shot in the balls seven times is “punishment to fit the crime,” then what’s the fitting punishment for storming someone’s house and shooting him in the balls seven times?"

Punishment, I say whats the reward? Rapists are deviants who have no place in our communities.

[Kotze]

What do you guys consider to be the fair punishment for the surgeons?

[fionntan]

"If having your house stormed by masked intruders and being shot in the balls seven times is “punishment to fit the crime,” then what’s the fitting punishment for storming someone’s house and shooting him in the balls seven times?"

FFs a copy and paste from the link.. Think for yourself:rolleyes:

[Jazzratt]

It's funny how "community action" and "working class justice" look a fuck of a lot like mindless vigilante lynch mobs.

[empiredestoryer]

the IRA are freedom fighters not police men

[Boboulas]

Im sure the rape victim and their family feel so much better knowing that the rapist has no genitals.

[fionntan]

I would just like to point something out these 2 people lived beside 3 schools and were know to be deviants and also the one who got shoot 7 times was harrasing the family of the girl he viciously raped as he was a bully boy. The other raped his own aunt.

[Boboulas]

FFs a copy and paste from the link.. Think for yourself:rolleyes:

Thats why it has quotation marks arround it ;)

[Palingenisis]

Here's to the lads (or laddettes ;)) who did it!

[Fat Cat Killer]

I would just like to point something out these 2 people lived beside 3 schools and were know to be deviants and also the one who got shoot 7 times was harrasing the family of the girl he viciously raped as he was a bully boy. The other raped his own aunt.

I heard the craic about the scumbags glad to see the **** lost his balls and these shootings send a clear message to others who think with their dick and not their head.

[Jazzratt]

I would just like to point something out these 2 people lived beside 3 schools and were know to be deviants and also the one who got shoot 7 times was harrasing the family of the girl he viciously raped as he was a bully boy. The other raped his own aunt. I don't think anyone's trying to argue that they aren't scum or that they haven't done terrible things. The question is what sort of 'justice' is random masked thugs running about shooting people in the bollocks? The entire concept of retributive "justice" really has little basis in rational thought and certainly should have been left behind years ago by any civilised people.

[Palingenisis]

Im sure the rape victim and their family feel so much better knowing that the rapist has no genitals.

Im sure the women and the girls in the area feel a lot safer knowing that the boys and men will think twice about even thinking about rape.

Anyway as an Irish woman I say well done the Volunteers.

[#FF0000]

Im sure the women and the girls in the area feel a lot safer knowing that the boys and men will think twice about even thinking about rape.

This probably isn't going to stop rape though.

[fionntan]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that they aren't scum or that they haven't done terrible things. The question is what sort of 'justice' is random masked thugs running about shooting people in the bollocks? The entire concept of retributive "justice" really has little basis in rational thought and certainly should have been left behind years ago by any civilised people.


You see thats were we are going to have to disagree the community make a decsion the "armed thugs" as you call them are nothing more than the stricking arm of that community.

[Palingenisis]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that they aren't scum or that they haven't done terrible things. The question is what sort of 'justice' is random masked thugs running about shooting people in the bollocks? The entire concept of retributive "justice" really has little basis in rational thought and certainly should have been left behind years ago by any civilised people.

Uh...These are not random masked thugs. They are volunteers in an underground army that maintains strict discipline over its members and relies on community support. When things like this happen its usually with a lot of thought and after the community has asked the Volunteers to act.

[Palingenisis]

This probably isn't going to stop rape though.

Rape is a lot rarer in communities where insurgents maintain a strong presence....A lot rarer. I feel much safer in Tyrone, Newry and Belfast than I do in Dublin or Galway.

[Jazzratt]

You see thats were we are going to have to disagree the community make a decsion the "armed thugs" as you call them are nothing more than the stricking arm of that community.Communities aren't infallible and they can easily make suspect decisions, like this one. You're relying on fallacious reasoning (argumentum ad populum) to prop up what is essentially an outdated and consistently debunked form of brutal psuedojustice. This action, while it obviously stymies the rapists in question, is really quite unlikely to have a large impact on rape in the area in general.

Of course it's very nice that a poisonous culture of violence has been introduced to the community,you can be proud of yourselves for that.:thumbup1:

[Boboulas]

This is simple "eye for an eye justice" Or eye for a ball in this case.

This hasnt stopped rape, it hasnt changed the fact that someone got raped AND i seriously doubt any civilized community asked some members of the IRA to shoot the rapist in the balls. If you can give me any sort of proof of that ill shut up.

[Jazzratt]

Uh...These are not random masked thugs. They are volunteers in an underground army that maintains strict discipline over its members and relies on community support. When things like this happen its usually with a lot of thought and after the community has asked the Volunteers to act. So they're an organised lynch mob? Well, that makes all the difference. :rolleyes:


Rape is a lot rarer in communities where insurgents maintain a strong presence....A lot rarer. I feel much safer in Tyrone, Newry and Belfast than I do in Dublin or Galway. This is a bare assertion and unless you have concrete data to back it up (no, anecdotal evidence about where you "feel safer" isn't data) there's no point in making it.

[Palingenisis]

Im not an out and out supporter of the IRA...A lot of the time I find Irish Republicans short sighted to say the least.

But credit where credit is due....The IRA is very good at keep heroin dealers, rapists and fascists away from working class communities. The reason that the far-right cant show its head in Ireland is because they know the Republican movement will deal with them. These are all very good things.

[Kotze]

Please answer my question.

[fionntan]

well i dont live in some utopian bubble i live in a working class district run by the people for the people and if these people deem sex offences anti social and they want other people to act on that well good enough for me. Will it stop rape and other reactionary acts NO does it curtail it yes. when we declare the workers republic will there still be a need for it YES on a larger scale for a brave while.

[Fat Cat Killer]

What do you guys consider to be the fair punishment for the surgeons?

Elaborate please?

Another plus is that its going to cost the NHS millions to look after this rapist scum for the rest of his life and probably hundreds of thousands on DLA etc making the occupation of Ireland that wee bit more costly for British Imperialism.

Result all round then.:)

[Kotze]

You see my little comprehension problem is this: Without the surgeons, he would probably be dead, right? They even saved his legs! So if you think that what these lads/ladettes did was good, how can you like what the surgeons did? But if you agree with what the surgeons did, then don't you agree that the lads/ladettes did something wrong? What's the solution here? Do we now have to shoot the lads/ladettes or the doctors? Or maybe a moderate solution: both. I don't get it.

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

[Palingenisis]

This is a bare assertion and unless you have concrete data to back it up (no, anecdotal evidence about where you "feel safer" isn't data) there's no point in making it.

For obvious reasons there are no accurate figures regarding rape however from talking to friends and family in the occupied north it really does seem much less of an occurance there than in other parts of these islands...Plus generally there is much more of a culture of general respect towards women within working class Republican communities than elsewhere. This action shows that whether you want to accept that or not. The actual alternative to occasional violence of this type is people living fear from either rape or the intimidation of drug dealing gangs.

[Fat Cat Killer]

You see my little comprehension problem is this: Without the surgeons, he would probably be dead, right? They even saved his legs! So if you think that what these lads/ladettes did was good, how can you like what the surgeons did? But if you agree with what the surgeons did, then don't you agree that the lads/ladettes did something wrong? What's the solution here? Do we now have to shoot the lads/ladettes or the doctors? Or maybe a moderate solution: both. I don't get it.

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

Your a prick.

[Milk Sheikh]

"If having your house stormed by masked intruders and being shot in the balls seven times is “punishment to fit the crime,” then what’s the fitting punishment for storming someone’s house and shooting him in the balls seven times?"

Storming their house and shooting them in the balls seven times.:rolleyes: If this trend continues, they'll run out of balls to shoot.

[fionntan]

It is women that run most of the community based projects and women/feminsts groups and deal with republican issues..

[Palingenisis]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

Again the supersitious paddy stereotype comes out...Well done...The fact is that the Republican movement was the only viable resistance against Political Roman Catholicism in Ireland for a long time...But I guess the complexities of history are to much for bigots such as yourself.

[Spawn of Stalin]

So a rapist takes a gun to the balls and all people are concerned with is slagging off the volunteers? Guy served eight years for one of the most disgusting crimes a single human being can possibly commit, now at least the scales have tipped a little, nothing can take away the fact that a rape did occur, but you can bet your balls that Darren Murdoch won't do it again. The working class obviously supports rough justice, if they didn't the IRA would have been kicked out of their neighbourhoods a long long time ago.

[RedSonRising]

This is "cool" and all, probably short-term effective for discouraging rape in those communities, and I don't exactly sympathize with the rapists...but this kind of violence isn't constructive to civilized systems of justice. Perhaps this time nobody was adversely affected besides the rapists, and I understand it was an organized venture, but it is not difficult to imagine a situation where an innocent person present at such an assault is harmed in a violent exchange, or a vengeful friend/family member decides to violently react against these communities, or the accusations of rape of a target are revealed to be mistakenly false. Again, hard to feel bad too bad for any of these guys and it is good to see militant protection of working class communities, but actions like these will not contribute to a working model of community justice nor spread positive ideas concerning the group's ideological standpoint or material accomplishments to outside individuals. One must think about such things if hoping to meaningfully contribute to a revolutionary society.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)
Wow congratulations on outing yourself as a racist idiot!

[Obs]

Another shining example of working class justice through community action:

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/washington_ground_level.jpg

[Wanted Man]

Not the most desirable form of meting out "justice" to people, but I can't say that I feel sorry for the "victim".

Also, no matter how many self-important denunciations are posted on this forum, nobody will give a shit.


Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

A bit of raging sectarianism never goes amiss either. Don't forget to say something about "Papists".

Also funny is that instead of being dealt with, this post gets thanked by an admin. Maybe I have to be a smelly, raging, sexually frustrated anti-semitic raghead who worships a paedo prophet to understand this. Or maybe a greedy, whiny, hook-nosed banker wearing some weird kind of cap.

Or perhaps some other group whom prejudice is (un)acceptable towards. Take your picks.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Not the most desirable form of meting out "justice" to people, but I can't say that I feel sorry for the "victim".

Also, no matter how many self-important denunciations are posted on this forum, nobody will give a shit.



A bit of raging sectarianism never goes amiss either. Don't forget to say something about "Papists".

Also funny is that instead of being dealt with, this post gets thanked by an admin. Maybe I have to be a smelly, raging, sexually frustrated anti-semitic raghead who worships a paedo prophet to understand this. Or maybe a greedy, whiny, hook-nosed banker wearing some weird kind of cap.

Or perhaps some other group whom prejudice is (un)acceptable towards. Take your picks.

Well said.

[#FF0000]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand?

woah it's like i'm in the 1800's all over again

[fionntan]

Another shining example of working class justice through community action:

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/washington_ground_level.jpg


there is no comparision as well you probably know ..But nothing like a bit of shit to spice up reality..

[fionntan]

Ive seen a few times posts on this forum that were racist to say the least again the irish population. Is it acceptable to be anti Irish and to use sterio types on this forum????

[Palingenisis]

Ive seen a few times posts on this forum that were racist to say the least again the irish population. Is it acceptable to be anti Irish and to use sterio types on this forum????

I think with a lot of English leftists, particularly the anarchists, their chauvinism is so ingrained that they dont realize what they are doing.

[Kotze]

I see everybody jumped at the opportunity to be terribly offended so they didn't have to answer the question.
there is no comparision as well you probably knowThe killed person in the picture was found guilty of raping and murdering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Washington_lynching) a woman.

[Wanted Man]

I see everybody jumped at the opportunity to be terribly offended so they didn't have to answer the question.

What does it matter if you mask your dumb questions with even dumber ethnic or religious slurs?

[Palingenisis]

I see everybody jumped at the opportunity to be terribly offended so they didn't have to answer the question.The killed person in the picture was found guilty of raping and murdering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Washington_lynching) a woman.

You really dont understand how things like this are handled in the north. Also the danger the volunteers ran undertaking the operation (bringing guns out of hiding, arranging the get away, doing intelligence to find the best time, etc). This sort of thing is NOT something undertaken lightly.

[Wanted Man]

The killed person in the picture was found guilty of raping and murdering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Washington_lynching) a woman.

The very introduction of that article says that it was a racially motivated lynching. It would have been analogous if the rapist was a black person who was burned and hanged to death in the centre of Belfast by a roaring all-white crowd of 15,000. This is completely different. No racial, ethnic or religious element as far as is known. No open and risk-free act. No rabble.

But I guess you're too much of a fucking idiot to understand that, which can only be expected to people who make prejudiced comments and then get upset when called on it.

[Sam_b]

Will this be the same 'community action' that used to kneecap drug dealers? Nothing needs justified as long as some people are labelled 'deviants' it seems.

[fionntan]

Yes.... no real need to get into semantics with a member of the SWP..

[fionntan]

Sam if it was your friends in the UVF it would be grand no doubt..Mug:lol::lol:

[Fat Cat Killer]

Sam if it was your friends in the UVF it would be grand no doubt..Mug:lol::lol:

I love it when these SWP trendys take the non violent moral high ground the hypocrisy is stinking. They have short memories, when the IPLO attacked the INLA and killed 14 people they used the excuse that the INLA were turning "Stalinist" the leaders of the IPLO were ex members of the fore runner of the SWP the International Socialists and were openly supported by the Trotskyist Chris Bambery the Irish head of the latter day SWP.

Maybe a fwe history lessons are needed lol wankers.

[Sam_b]

Yes.... no real need to get into semantics with a member of the SWP..

Sam if it was your friends in the UVF it would be grand no doubt..Mug

So that'll be no comeback and no factualities then? I mean, i'm sure we'd all love to see your sources showing the SWP's links with the UVF...especially since we formerly held a stance of critial support towards the IRA...or do we just conveniently forget things when faced with propaganda of the deed antics?

[Kotze]

Please read this. I apologize to esteemed discussion contributors Fat Cat Killer, fionntan, and Palingenisis.

Upon reflection, it became clear to me — as it must be clear to anyone who has a rudimentary grasp when it comes to the issue at hand (the issue of shooting people in the nuts, that is) — that they, by which I mean above discussion participants as well as our heroic lads or ladettes, were — and are — only concerned with security for women and children; and that their minds were certainly not — and are certainly not, and have never been, at any point — in any way whatsoever clouded by questionable revenge fantasies of any kind.

Sorry. I'm very sorry for making a crude jokey comment that ruined which was after all a light-hearted thread about celebrating that someone who spent eight years in jail for his crime got shot in the legs, penis, and testicles (seven bullets struck him, the penis and testicles had to be removed).

If only I could reverse time before the point where I made that tasteless comment. But I can't! I guess I have learned something today: That in a world where we can never be 100% sure to have all the information we need it is important to have an institutional design that encourages courses of action where you know you can stop, or better revert. For example, when it comes to convicted rapists there is the method of chemical castration, which can be reversed in cases of a wrong conviction.

Someone might say all is good since things went "well" in this case, but even if you agree with that judgement it is like saying smoking is a great idea because your grandpa smoked and made it to 90. This is no way to run things. It's a pre-scientific mindset.

I digress, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, IN THE NUTS LOLOLOLOL!!!!111

[Fat Cat Killer]

Please read this. I apologize to esteemed discussion contributors Fat Cat Killer, fionntan, and Palingenisis.

Upon reflection, it became clear to me — as it must be clear to anyone who has a rudimentary grasp when it comes to the issue at hand (the issue of shooting people in the nuts, that is) — that they, by which I mean above discussion participants as well as our heroic lads or ladettes, were — and are — only concerned with security for women and children; and that their minds were certainly not — and are certainly not, and have never been, at any point — in any way whatsoever clouded by questionable revenge fantasies of any kind.

Sorry. I'm very sorry for making a crude jokey comment that ruined which was after all a light-hearted thread about celebrating that someone who spent eight years in jail for his crime got shot in the legs, penis, and testicles (seven bullets struck him, the penis and testicles had to be removed).

If only I could reverse time before the point where I made that tasteless comment. But I can't! I guess I have learned something today: That in a world where we can never be 100% sure to have all the information we need it is important to have an institutional design that encourages courses of action where you know you can stop, or better revert. For example, when it comes to convicted rapists there is the method of chemical castration, which can be reversed in cases of a wrong conviction.

Someone might say all is good since things went "well" in this case, but even if you agree with that judgement it is like saying smoking is a great idea because your grandpa smoked and made it to 90. This is no way to run things. It's a pre-scientific mindset.

I digress, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, IN THE NUTS LOLOLOLOL!!!!111
Stick your apology up your hole ya trendy bastard ;)

[Quail]

I think with a lot of English leftists, particularly the anarchists, their chauvinism is so ingrained that they dont realize what they are doing.
What is your basis for this comment? Why anarchists in particular?

As for my response to the OP, I don't think that this kind of behaviour is constructive. In the end, it doesn't acheive anything. It doesn't stop rape from happening and it doesn't do anything for the survivors.

[khad]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)
Couldn't quit while you were ahead, eh? Had to throw the prejudiced language to prove your hip cred?

In any event, you earned this infraction.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)
Man, the things you'll read on a supposedly "leftist" website...

[Marxach-Léinínach]

on another note, fair play to the volunteers

[Fat Cat Killer]

What is your basis for this comment? Why anarchists in particular?

As for my response to the OP, I don't think that this kind of behaviour is constructive. In the end, it doesn't acheive anything. It doesn't stop rape from happening and it doesn't do anything for the survivors.

Ha "it doesn't achieve anything" spoken like a true trendy. This happened because working class people from the community that this beast lived in were fearful of walking the streets they went to republicans for action.
And the deviant got his cock and balls blew off with a 9mm.
Where Im from they call that a "good job".

[#FF0000]

Yeah I have serious doubts that this action has done anything but sated some bloodlust or something.

I am p. indifferent either way.

[Quail]

Ha "it doesn't achieve anything" spoken like a true trendy. This happened because working class people from the community that this beast lived in were fearful of walking the streets they went to republicans for action.
And the deviant got his cock and balls blew off with a 9mm.
Where Im from they call that a "good job".
This action isn't going to stop future rapists from doing the same thing, and it doesn't undo the trauma of the rape. All it really does is satisfy a desire for revenge.

[Fat Cat Killer]

This action isn't going to stop future rapists from doing the same thing, and it doesn't undo the trauma of the rape. All it really does is satisfy a desire for revenge.

Bollox, if you think a sex offender getting his genitals blown of with a 9mm wont deter these sickos then your more deluded than I first thought.
Now enlighten us all to how anarchists would deal with these scum while we live within the capitalist system as Im all ears?

This should be good:laugh:

[Quail]

Bollox, if you think a sex offender getting his genitals blown of with a 9mm wont deter these sickos then your more deluded than I first thought.
Now enlighten us all to how anarchists would deal with these scum while we live within the capitalist system as Im all ears?

This should be good:laugh:
Interesting you ask, because I know of someone in the anarchist movement who sexually assaulted another member. He was disassociated from the organisation and will be let back in if he can prove that he's changed his attitudes, is no longer a danger to women and has made as many reparations as he can. In the meantime, we are letting people know what he did if he goes to a party or whatever. A more constructive solution than blowing his balls off, surely?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

and if he sexually assaults someone again?

[#FF0000]

Bollox, if you think a sex offender getting his genitals blown of with a 9mm wont deter these sickos then your more deluded than I first thought.
Now enlighten us all to how anarchists would deal with these scum while we live within the capitalist system as Im all ears?

This should be good:laugh:

It won't and you think it will because you don't understand how people work and how deviant behavior works.

[#FF0000]

and if he sexually assaults someone again?

You can't really punish people to that extent for something they "might" do.

[gorillafuck]

I think with a lot of English leftists, particularly the anarchists, their chauvinism is so ingrained that they dont realize what they are doing.
I don't see how chauvinism is more prevalent in anarchists than ML's. In the US, the last CP to stop opposing homosexuality was the Maoists, btw.

If this is what the IRA does then good luck with freeing Northern Ireland. Why take action against the British occupiers when you can shoot rapists in the balls and kneecap people for selling hash pipes?

[Fat Cat Killer]

Interesting you ask, because I know of someone in the anarchist movement who sexually assaulted another member. He was disassociated from the organisation and will be let back in if he can prove that he's changed his attitudes, is no longer a danger to women and has made as many reparations as he can. In the meantime, we are letting people know what he did if he goes to a party or whatever. A more constructive solution than blowing his balls off, surely?

If this was not so serious a subject I would take the piss out of that post.

So in essence what you are saying is Anarchists solution to sexual crime is tell the perpetrators friends and hope for the best he/she dose not do it again?

I think its high time you took a big drink of "wise the fuck up" you just made a total fool out of yourself and your "ideology".

What a dick.(pun intended)

[Os Cangaceiros]

Some of the posts on this thread are really Stormfront-esque, with the ranting echo chamber of individuals praising the fact that some pervert "got his". :rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

surely there is some middle ground between asking people politely to not rape again and shooting dicks off.

[Old Man Diogenes]

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/michaelwalford/2006/10/06/triumph_of_the_will_stadium_shot.jpg?maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600


So they're an organised lynch mob? Well, that makes all the difference. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the Reductio ad Hitlerum, but I truly could not resist.

[Fat Cat Killer]

It won't and you think it will because you don't understand how people work and how deviant behavior works.

I understand all to well the inherent excuses the trendy left use for these crimes.
Bullying as a child, being a victim of sexual abuse themselves,coming from a broken home, poverty, being a social outcast bla bla bla.

Sex crime is individualist fascism, when one person forces his/her own will/agenda on another for the benefit of the perpetrators own desires/needs then they cross a line that you can never come back from hence the need for extreme justice.

[#FF0000]

I understand all to well the inherent excuses the trendy left use for these crimes.

No, that isn't what I'm talking about at all. People who murder and rape aren't going to stop because of harsher punishments. That just isn't how it works. The fact that people who commit these crimes aren't thinking of the consequences isn't a coincidence.

And could you stop using "trendy" as a slur or whatever. This isn't high school.

[Os Cangaceiros]

LOL right...there's absolutely nothing behind sex crime in our societies other than people being evil sex fascists who deserve to have their cocks blown off.

[Quail]

If this was not so serious a subject I would take the piss out of that post.

So in essence what you are saying is Anarchists solution to sexual crime is tell the perpetrators friends and hope for the best he/she dose not do it again?

I think its high time you took a big drink of "wise the fuck up" you just made a total fool out of yourself and your "ideology".

What a dick.(pun intended)
Did you not read my post? He's currently getting therapy and making efforts to change his behaviour. I believe that he is also working towards making reparations to the survivors. By letting other people know what he is like, they can decide whether or not to hang out with him, and keep themselves safe. He is not welcome at activist meetings. The whole thing has been handled in a very mature, solution-orientated way in my opinion.

Shooting someone in the balls doesn't make reparations to the survivors and doesn't solve the problems in society that cause people to rape others in the first place. It's like killing the leaves of a weed but leaving the root so that it just grows back.

[#FF0000]

To be honest at least a few people I know are probably rapists (I go to college, after all) and it is REALLY hard for me to say that I would have a problem with the IRA shooting their dicks off in the dead of night.

But this is besides the point.

[gorillafuck]

I understand all to well the inherent excuses the trendy left use for these crimes.
Bullying as a child, being a victim of sexual abuse themselves,coming from a broken home, poverty, being a social outcast bla bla bla.
Lol "trendy left". Did they get their politics at Abercrombie and Fitch?


Sex crime is individualist fascism, That doesn't make sense at all.


when one person forces his/her own will/agenda on another for the benefit of the perpetrators own desires/needs then they cross a line that you can never come back from hence the need for extreme justice.That would mean that every crime committed except victimless crimes deserves "extreme justice"

[IndependentCitizen]

Well done, lads.

[Palingenisis]

What is your basis for this comment? Why anarchists in particular?

As for my response to the OP, I don't think that this kind of behaviour is constructive. In the end, it doesn't acheive anything. It doesn't stop rape from happening and it doesn't do anything for the survivors.

Read back through the archives (including "comradewolfie's" very similar remarks to Kotze). I didnt bring up the subject of the anti-Irish racism here. Someone else who I have argued against quite strongly in the past did. And two non-Maoist posters thanked him for that comment. The English anarchist movement is quite infamous for its anti-Irish attitudes, Class War which is actually made up of ordinary working class people excluded, and members of DAM on another forum have admitted singing loyalist songs down the pub for a "laugh". You see these attitudes a lot less among other left wing organizations (SPEW maybe excluded) because they are well...more thoughtful.

And on next point it sends a message about how seriously the community views rape which is very refreshing in a world where it is usually swept under the carpet and while obviously it doesnt stop it completely men know they run serious risks doing it in Republican areas in a way they know they dont in a lot of other places...And yes that does tend to equal less rapes strangely enough.

[#FF0000]

And yes that does tend to equal less rapes strangely enough.

But can you actually produce some facts that state this?

[Fat Cat Killer]

Did you not read my post? He's currently getting therapy and making efforts to change his behaviour. I believe that he is also working towards making reparations to the survivors. By letting other people know what he is like, they can decide whether or not to hang out with him, and keep themselves safe. He is not welcome at activist meetings. The whole thing has been handled in a very mature, solution-orientated way in my opinion.

Shooting someone in the balls doesn't make reparations to the survivors and doesn't solve the problems in society that cause people to rape others in the first place. It's like killing the leaves of a weed but leaving the root so that it just grows back.

Oh la de da, hes very sorry for his rape so lets all hold hands and dance around the may berry bush.
Catch a fucking grip comrade get the bastard into a back ally some night and break his arms and legs that'll teach him a lesson he wont forget.

[StalinFanboy]

Your right punishment will not solve crime. Severe punishment on the other hand will.


I think this sort of logic has been refuted by history.


That being said, I'm not opposed to rapists getting fucked up.

[#FF0000]

lol implying any sort of therapy is ever "holding hands and dancing around bushes"

[gorillafuck]

And two non-Maoist posters thanked him for that comment.
Maoists in America have been extraordinarily chauvinistic.


The English anarchist movement is quite infamous for its anti-Irish attitudes
This would actually be worth going into.

[StalinFanboy]

Bollox, if you think a sex offender getting his genitals blown of with a 9mm wont deter these sickos then your more deluded than I first thought.
Now enlighten us all to how anarchists would deal with these scum while we live within the capitalist system as Im all ears?

This should be good:laugh:

There was a man that lived in santa cruz that I know that played some fairly important roles in the student/occupation movement last year. Turns out he's actually a dirt-bag rapist/sexual assaulter.

long story short: he was beaten up, and his name and shit were posted on anarchistnews. He can no longer participate in the anarchist scene at all.

I don't think this is the answer for every single case, but fits for this particular person because he has a history of sexual assault and rape, and has been kicked out of cities before.

[Palingenisis]

I don't see how chauvinism is more prevalent in anarchists than ML's. In the US, the last CP to stop opposing homosexuality was the Maoists, btw.


Are you refering to the RCP? There is a lot that can be dragged up against them including their opposition to school busing in Boston and some pretty nasty anti-Black racism. They are really not and never were what Maoism is about...On the other hand the heavily Maoist influenced WWP were very strong on Gay rights even before Stonewall. In France the first leftist group to really take Gay rights up was Gauche Proletairene. In Ireland the first party to call for Gay liberation was the than Maoist influenced Irish Republican Socialist Party. Im not saying Anarchists in general, thats unfair I realize...But members of AF and DAM in the UK certainly have given a lot of people (not just me that impression).

And yes a lot of the M-Ls from Eastern Europe on here have expressed homophobic and nationalist attitudes...But weirdly so have some of the Trots from over there aswell. I do though think in general that people arrive at Marxism-Leninism or Maoism after a lot more thought than they do with Democratic Socialism, Trotskyism and Anarchism for the simple reason that the whole "Stalinist" movement gets so much bad press in the west. And for that reason Stalinists are kinda more thoughtful generally (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION).

[#FF0000]

I think it's a pretty common complaint for English leftists in general to be a lil chauvinistic.

I mean you'll be hard pressed to find someone who has a stronger distaste for America than an American leftist. Same doesn't seem to be true for England.

Regardless, back to the topic at hand, I don't really care about the rapist in this situation but the backpatting going on in here is kind of stupid considering it probably won't mean much for stopping rape in general.

[Jazzratt]

The wonderful assumption that everyone makes when they talk about how great a "deterrent" shooting dicks and breaking bones is that people commit crimes with a view to getting caught for it.

[Palingenisis]

If this is what the IRA does then good luck with freeing Northern Ireland. Why take action against the British occupiers when you can shoot rapists in the balls and kneecap people for selling hash pipes?

The thing about shooting the guy for selling hash pipes was WRONG full stop. It wasnt carried out though by the IRA but by Republican Action Against Drugs in Derry.

Rape can have truelly appalling long terms effects on the victim that basically fuck up large chunks of her life. All to often its an issue that isnt taken half as serious as it should be.

Those two actions are in no way comparable.

[gorillafuck]

The thing about shooting the guy for selling hash pipes was WRONG full stop. It wasnt carried out though by the IRA but by Republican Action Against Drugs in Derry.
I'm extremely glad that you admit that, I thought you were in support of it (did you used to be?). And yeah, I thought that was IRA. My bad.


Rape can have truelly appalling long terms effects on the victim that basically fuck up large chunks of her life. All to often its an issue that isnt taken half as serious as it should be. It isn't taken as seriously as it should be, but the attention that's paid to it shouldn't necessarily be shooting peoples dicks off.


Those two actions are in no way comparable.Fair enough.

[scarletghoul]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre

[#FF0000]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre

j_ekugPKqFw

[Fat Cat Killer]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre

+1 Thats a fantastic quote mo chara Im going to use that as my sig.

[Palingenisis]

But can you actually produce some facts that state this?

No accept my own experience....FatCatKiller and fiontann are from those places....But if you really dont think that a huge social taboo as well as serious consequences been attached to rape and sexual assult doesnt lower them than I doubt all the figures in the world would be able to persuade you otherwise.

[Jazzratt]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre That's a profoundly depressing and pessimistic view of "the people" if you think about it for more than, say, five seconds. Regardless of how Robespierre intended it to sound it basically implies that it's institutions like law courts which stop us behaving like total fucking savages.

[Palingenisis]

Oh la de da, hes very sorry for his rape so lets all hold hands and dance around the may berry bush.
Catch a fucking grip comrade get the bastard into a back ally some night and break his arms and legs that'll teach him a lesson he wont forget.

Honestly a chara we both know they wont to do that because deep down they probably dont give a shit about people or even themselves.

[Fat Cat Killer]

No accept my own experience....FatCatKiller and fiontann are from those places....But if you really dont think that a huge social taboo as well as serious consequences been attached to rape and sexual assult doesnt lower them than I doubt all the figures in the world would be able to persuade you otherwise.

Mo chara dont try and appease the British trendys they will never understand, hold them in contempt of our class for not rising up they are moderates fastened to the heel of their Imperialist masters.

[Crux]

It is said that this action had support in the community. How could they possibly know that? Were they petitioned by the community? No I doubt that. Could it have been because they wanted to be hard men and shoot someone no one would defend anyway? It has nothing to do with justice, even less to do with stopping rape and most of all it has fuck all to do with left-wing politics here. Who gives a fuck about nationalist socdems with guns? You republicans on here, if you disagree with that, do please tell me of the virtues of the political position of the Volunteers, the CIRA or the RIRA. Or maybe the fact that they have guns (and carry out "punishment shootings" against "deviants" just like the rightwingers would do, oh wait) makes you forget that. I mean at least the IRSP:ers should get it, I will reserve judgement for fat cat 'til he is at least out of puberty. And Palingenesis need not bother since she is a troll.

[scarletghoul]

That's a profoundly depressing and pessimistic view of "the people" if you think about it for more than, say, five seconds. Regardless of how Robespierre intended it to sound it basically implies that it's institutions like law courts which stop us behaving like total fucking savages.
"A sensibility that wails almost exclusively over the enemies of liberty seems suspect to me. Stop shaking the tyrant's bloody robe in my face, or I will believe that you wish to put Rome in chains." - Robespierre

[Robocommie]

The argument that judicial punishments aren't severe enough and that's why crime continues has always seemed fairly childish to me. It seems self-evidently wrong - there was a period in time when traitors were drawn on a rack in a public square, eviscerated and then forced to watch as their severed genitals were burned in a fire, and then they were quartered by draught horses. City bridges used to be adorned with the severed heads of criminals, or decorated with gibbets from which the rotting corpses of criminals would hang until the birds pecked off the flesh.

And yet despite these incredibly vicious, severe, and public displays of justice, people still committed treason, theft, and did various forms of evil against each other.

The thing about severe punishment is that you can never really be certain it's warranted. You can never be 100% sure of anything, and to be able to unleash such incredibly brutal retributive justice on someone, frankly without perfect information you're never going to be sure enough. Mistakes get made in criminal trials constantly, because people are fallible. Evidence gets misplaced, facts get confused. A number of people have since been cleared of charges that they were originally convicted of since genetic testing has been introduced. And this is all assuming good faith efforts on the part of the courts - court corruption is a serious problem. Leftists simply have no excuse for being unaware of the extent to which the courts are open to political agendas or vendetta or class or racial bias. Even confessions are not 100% sound because it's hardly uncommon for police to use torture to extract a confession from a suspect, particularly if the police have already decided for themselves that a suspect is guilty.

If you're going to deprive someone of life or limb, you better be able to restore it if it turns out later you were wrong. Because no matter how much populist sentiment is behind you, you're not the unerring Hand of God who smites only the unrighteous. You're a person, just as capable of succumbing to your base prejudices and emotions as anyone else, just as capable of error as anyone else.

[gorillafuck]

"A sensibility that wails almost exclusively over the enemies of liberty seems suspect to me. Stop shaking the tyrant's bloody robe in my face, or I will believe that you wish to put Rome in chains." - Robespierre
"Yeah, well you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man." - The Dude

[Jazzratt]

"A sensibility that wails almost exclusively over the enemies of liberty seems suspect to me. Stop shaking the tyrant's bloody robe in my face, or I will believe that you wish to put Rome in chains." - Robespierre It's nice to see you can enter a thread without providing a single syllable of your own insight.

[Robocommie]

"A sensibility that wails almost exclusively over the enemies of liberty seems suspect to me. Stop shaking the tyrant's bloody robe in my face, or I will believe that you wish to put Rome in chains." - Robespierre

You know we normally get on Scarlet, but I want to point out that the logic behind this quote seems to generally be "Either you're with us or the TERRORISTS."

[scarletghoul]

The argument that judicial punishments aren't severe enough and that's why crime continues has always seemed fairly childish to me. It seems self-evidently wrong - there was a period in time when traitors were drawn on a rack in a public square, eviscerated and then forced to watch as their severed genitals were burned in a fire, and then they were quartered by draught horses. City bridges used to be adorned with the severed heads of criminals, or decorated with gibbets from which the rotting corpses of criminals would hang until the birds pecked off the flesh.

And yet despite these incredibly vicious, severe, and public displays of justice, people still committed treason, theft, and did various forms of evil against each other.

The thing about severe punishment is that you can never really be certain it's warranted. You can never be 100% sure of anything, and to be able to unleash such incredibly brutal retributive justice on someone, frankly without perfect information you're never going to be sure enough. Mistakes get made in criminal trials constantly, because people are fallible. Evidence gets misplaced, facts get confused. A number of people have since been cleared of charges that they were originally convicted of since genetic testing has been introduced. And this is all assuming good faith efforts on the part of the courts - court corruption is a serious problem. Leftists simply have no excuse for being unaware of the extent to which the courts are open to political agendas or vendetta or class or racial bias. Even confessions are not 100% sound because it's hardly uncommon for police to use torture to extract a confession from a suspect, particularly if the police have already decided for themselves that a suspect is guilty.

If you're going to deprive someone of life or limb, you better be able to restore it if it turns out later you were wrong. Because no matter how much populist sentiment is behind you, you're not the unerring Hand of God who smites only the unrighteous. You're a person, just as capable of succumbing to your base prejudices and emotions as anyone else, just as capable of error as anyone else.
You are entirely missing the point.

To be honest, I'm not completely comfortable with anyone having their genitalia blown off, but that is of secondary importance. Whether or not you think its an effective preventative measure, whether or not it upsets your ethical sensibilities, or whatever, it is wrong to cry for a rapist in the face of community action.

[Robocommie]

You are entirely missing the point.

To be honest, I'm not completely comfortable with anyone having their genitalia blown off, but that is of secondary importance. Whether or not you think its an effective preventative measure, whether or not it upsets your ethical sensibilities, or whatever, it is wrong to cry for a rapist in the face of community action.

Listen, I don't know anything about this guy, and I really don't give a damn about him in particular. If he is in fact guilty, hypothetically, then whatever.

But what you are essentially saying is that it's wrong to defend someone accused of a crime against a mob. Isn't it? I mean, I think you're missing MY point. There is a reason we developed the system of laws, courts and legal processes we have. There's a reason "vigilante justice" is generally considered to be a bad thing in modern society.

[scarletghoul]

You know we normally get on Scarlet, but I want to point out that the logic behind this quote seems to generally be "Either you're with us or the TERRORISTS."
Ironically this is the almost-same-but-entirely-opposite meaning; Robespierre was speaking in support of the revolutionary Terror.

The point is why do you care so much about a rapist.

[Crux]

So in Free Ireland, shooting the balls off rapists (or even alleged rapists) would be the customary way to punish people? This does not strike anyone else as reactionary? Fat Cat here displays the same old conservtive "harder punishment" logic towards crime as right wingers have done all through history. The fact that it has proven to not actually work as a deterrent is of course secondary (especially if you can throw in insults like "leftist", oh wait sorry "trendy leftist" was it? Oh well, close enough.).

[Sasha]

You are entirely missing the point.

To be honest, I'm not completely comfortable with anyone having their genitalia blown off, but that is of secondary importance. Whether or not you think its an effective preventative measure, whether or not it upsets your ethical sensibilities, or whatever, it is wrong to cry for a rapist in the face of community action.

and you are missing points by the landslide.
point is that it are thin lines between "community action" and "self appointed vanguard" and "cops by just another name but these even unrestraind by bourgois law".

If this guy was clearly guilty and the cops/system where obviously sheltering the guy/denying justice and the victim wanted this done and some actual community volunteers stepped forward and did this backed by an actual community dicision after it was deemed that because of the likelyhood that this guy would do this again only expulsion or naming and shaming wouldnt work and if it then was done with and goal to limit suffering THEN you wouldnt hear me complaining.
but that doesnt really seem the case here now does it?

[Crux]

Ironically this is the almost-same-but-entirely-opposite meaning; Robespierre was speaking in support of the revolutionary Terror.

The point is why do you care so much about a rapist.
A Terror, while exaggerated in history books (more people were murdered by the french state after the paris commune was destroyed yet this is never called the Great Terror), which hardly could have said to done much good for the revolutionary process. Remember that it saw Robespierres own head roll in the end.

[Aurora]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre
You think the situation in NI warrants revolutionary terror? lol

[Robocommie]

Ironically this is the almost-same-but-entirely-opposite meaning; Robespierre was speaking in support of the revolutionary Terror.

The point is why do you care so much about a rapist.

I understand he was speaking in support of La Terreur, Scarlet, I'm not an idiot.

This is the kind of logic that creates witch hunts. Anyone calling for rationality and restraint in judicial action automatically is asked, why are you standing up for a child molestor/communist/devil worshipper?

[Palingenisis]

So in Free Ireland, shooting the balls off rapists (or even alleged rapists) would be the customary way to punish people? This does not strike anyone else as reactionary? Fat Cat here displays the same old conservtive "harder punishment" logic towards crime as right wingers have done all through history. The fact that it has proven to not actually work as a deterrent is of course secondary (especially if you can throw in insults like "leftist", oh wait sorry "trendy leftist" was it? Oh well, close enough.).

Actually seeing as working class people, particularly the easy to pick on members of the class such as women and elderly suffer the brunt of crime a lot of working class have very similar attitudes...They arent necessarily right wing as such, though they certainly arent liberal...I remember something about Trots and Anarchists crying horror when Revolutionary Communists in France in either the late 60s or early 70s delievered popular justice to some rich guy who had raped a working class girl. Some things never change.

[Sasha]

And this is the kind of logic that creates witch hunts. Anyone calling for rationality and restraint in judicial action automatically is asked, why are you standing up for a child molestor/communist/devil worshipper?


this...
remember the smartshop guy that was shot by some brave volunteers?
cry heroin and shoot the hippie...

[scarletghoul]

I understand he was speaking in support of La Terreur, Scarlet, I'm not an idiot.

This is the kind of logic that creates witch hunts. Anyone calling for rationality and restraint in judicial action automatically is asked, why are you standing up for a child molestor/communist/devil worshipper?
1. This person was found guilty by what we have no reason to doubt was a fair trial.
2. Rape is not the same as communism; people hate rapists for good reason, whereas commiephobia is usually based on bullshit.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The trendys getting their knickers in a twist about this rapist getting his just deserts is laughable.

Marxism is a economic theory, putting the means of production distribution and exchange firmly in the hands of the people through council democracy's is what our ideology is all about.

Nowhere in Marx and Engels manifesto dose it state that rapists,peados,murderers and class collaborators should be dealt a fair hand and this is what I believe.

Irish Republican social justice is something that should be admired by the left not frowned upon.

Those that do look down their noses are simply watery bastards.

[Robocommie]

1. This person was found guilty by what we have no reason to doubt was a fair trial.
2. Rape is not the same as communism; people hate rapists for good reason, whereas commiephobia is usually based on bullshit.

Dude, 1. The whole point is that things like the death penalty are bullshit because you can never be sure just how fair the trial was. And the fact is, you can't appeal against a lynch mob, you can't sue for breach of civil rights, or anything like that. There are legal proceedings for a reason.

2. This isn't about Communism scarlet, why else do you suppose I included pedos and witches in the example? All it takes is an accusation by enough people and suddenly that person is guilty, and then before long, everyone who points out that people need to keep a cool head and not jump to overly emotional and rash action, gets branded as some kind of sympathizer. "What's with you? Do you LIKE rape or something?" It's completely unfair, childish and simple-minded. Just because a lot of people back something up doesn't mean it's automatically right or true.

[scarletghoul]

Dude, 1. The whole point is that things like the death penalty are bullshit because you can never be sure just how fair the trial was. And the fact is, you can't appeal against a lynch mob, you can't sue for breach of civil rights, or anything like that. There are legal proceedings for a reason.

2. This isn't about Communism scarlet, why else do you suppose I included pedos and witches in the example? All it takes is an accusation by enough people and suddenly that person is guilty, and then before long, everyone who points out that people need to keep a cool head and not jump to overly emotional and rash action, gets branded as some kind of sympathizer. "What's with you? Do you LIKE rape or something?" It's completely unfair, childish and simple-minded.
1.In that case any sentence is bad because there's a possibility of the person being innocent.

2. My last post covered the pedo and witch scenarios too. If an innocent person is accused of molesting a child and attacked then obviously that is awful; however if, like with this rapist, the child molester was (found) guilty then it's a different matter.

As for witches, they occupy a space between innocentpersonaccusedofpedophilia and communist: they are almost certainly not guilty, but even if they were it's not such a bad thing as satanophobia is based off bullshit religious indoctrination. In this sense witches are the opposite to the person in question

[Jolly Red Giant]

Irish Republican social justice is something that should be admired by the left not frowned upon.
Robert McCartney -

[Fat Cat Killer]

Robert McCartney -

Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, see you later alligator.

[9]

The trendys getting their knickers in a twist about this rapist getting his just deserts is laughable.

Marxism is a economic theory, putting the means of production distribution and exchange firmly in the hands of the people through council democracy's is what our ideology is all about.

Nowhere in Marx and Engels manifesto dose it state that rapists,peados,murderers and class collaborators should be dealt a fair hand and this is what I believe.

Maybe not in the Manifesto, but that's hardly the only writing they did...

Originally Posted by Karl Marx, well known "trendy"
...it would be very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to establish any principle upon which the justice or expediency of capital punishment could be founded, in a society glorying in its civilization. Punishment in general has been defended as a means either of ameliorating or of intimidating. Now what right have you to punish me for the amelioration or intimidation of others? And besides, there is history — there is such a thing as statistics — which prove with the most complete evidence that since Cain the world has neither been intimidated nor ameliorated by punishment. Quite the contrary. From the point of view of abstract right, there is only one theory of punishment which recognizes human dignity in the abstract, and that is the theory of Kant, especially in the more rigid formula given to it by Hegel. Hegel says:
“Punishment is the right of the criminal. It is an act of his own will. The violation of right has been proclaimed by the criminal as his own right. His crime is the negation of right. Punishment is the negation of this negation, and consequently an affirmation of right, solicited and forced upon the criminal by himself.” [Hegel, Philosophy of Right (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/pr/prwrong.htm#PRn100a)]
There is no doubt something specious in this formula, inasmuch as Hegel, instead of looking upon the criminal as the mere object, the slave of justice, elevates him to the position of a free and self-determined being. Looking, however, more closely into the matter, we discover that German idealism here, as in most other instances, has but given a transcendental sanction to the rules of existing society. Is it not a delusion to substitute for the individual with his real motives, with multifarious social circumstances pressing upon him, the abstraction of “free-will” — one among the many qualities of man for man himself! This theory, considering punishment as the result of the criminal’s own will, is only a metaphysical expression for the old “jus talionis” [the right of retaliation by inflicting punishment of the same kind] eye against eye, tooth against tooth, blood against blood. Plainly speaking, and dispensing with all paraphrases, punishment is nothing but a means of society to defend itself against the infraction of its vital conditions, whatever may be their character. Now, what a state of society is that, which knows of no better Instrument for its own defense than the hangman...?

Irish Republican social justice is something that should be admired by the left not frowned upon.

Those that do look down their noses are simply watery bastards.

Or perhaps just materialists. We're all very impressed by how much of a big, strong hardman you clearly are, though (lol)

[Fat Cat Killer]

Maybe not in the Manifesto, but that's hardly the only writing they did...


Or perhaps just materialists. We're all very impressed by how much of a big, strong hardman you clearly are, though (lol)

Yawn.

[Sasha]

"Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law; they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts." - Robespierre

yes vigilantes think they are infallible Gods, communists dont do gods, my point exactly

[The Red Next Door]

Another shining example of working class justice through community action:

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/washington_ground_level.jpg


That diguesting!!!!! Don't be using that to compare to this. fuck this.

[L.A.P.]

Half of these people *****ing about how shooting him won't solve anything and it's wrong, what should people do about it then? In reality, nothing will make things better including rehabilitation. So when you whine about saying it doesn't solve the problem, what's your point?

[#FF0000]

Yawn.

Er, she kinda beat you. Marx would look at this and be like "Oh what the fuck is this?"

I'm not saying we should listen to literally everything someone says, but, uh, Marx had pretty clear thoughts about the death penalty and things like that.

[#FF0000]

No accept my own experience....FatCatKiller and fiontann are from those places....But if you really dont think that a huge social taboo as well as serious consequences been attached to rape and sexual assult doesnt lower them than I doubt all the figures in the world would be able to persuade you otherwise.

No, see, this is why you guys are so fucking wrong. People who commit a rape don't give half a fuck about the consequences or the social taboos because they don't expect to get caught. Harsher punishments do fuck all as a direct result of this.

And because of things like this, normalizing and justifying vigilante actions with vague political overtones, all that's really being done is that you're giving alienated and anti-social elements a supposedly legitimate way of being alienated and anti-social, which you kind of run the risk of in any paramilitary organization. (This is my biggest concern in here, tbh, not dick-shooting)

But like I said, if you can show me that this sort of "community action" is having an impact on the occurrence of rape, then fine, good job. But from the very basic knowledge I have of psychology and "deviant behavior", this alone probably won't do very much.

[Palingenisis]

Er, she kinda beat you. Marx would look at this and be like "Oh what the fuck is this?"

I'm not saying we should listen to literally everything someone says, but, uh, Marx had pretty clear thoughts about the death penalty and things like that.

Beat how so? It really annoys (and all who at least claim to follow Lenin's legacy are especially guilty of this) when people quote Marx or whoever the way that fundie's quote the the Bible as if to say that because they said it they must be write....Also thats taken from an early book (A critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right I think) and Marx like everyone changed as he got older (his writings in On The Civil War in France can be quite severe).

[#FF0000]

Half of these people *****ing about how shooting him won't solve anything and it's wrong, what should people do about it then? In reality, nothing will make things better including rehabilitation. So when you whine about saying it doesn't solve the problem, what's your point?

Because vigilante actions like this run the risk of introducing a whole new set of problems.

[Palingenisis]

No, see, this is why you guys are so fucking wrong. People who commit a rape don't give half a fuck about the consequences or the social taboos because they don't expect to get caught. Harsher punishments do fuck all as a direct result of this.


Most men who rape get away with it, most men know that if they rape a girl that they will probably get away with it which is sad but true. "Community action" and the threat of it means that they dont usually in some communities and therefore men are much less likely to rape.

[#FF0000]

Beat how so? It really annoys (and all who at least claim to follow Lenin's legacy are especially guilty of this) when people quote Marx or whoever the way that fundie's quote the the Bible as if to say that because they said it they must be write....Also thats taken from an early book (A critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right I think) and Marx like everyone changed as he got older (his writings in On The Civil War in France can be quite severe).

I think there is a difference between "justice" in the middle of a Revolution and "Justice" in a stable society, though.

[#FF0000]

Most men who rape get away with it, most men know that if they rape a girl that they will probably get away with it which is sad but true. "Community action" and the threat of it means that they dont usually in some communities and therefore men are much less likely to rape.

Except this isn't how it works. They do not care about the consequences, be it jail time, or getting shot by the IRA, because they do not expect to face them. It isn't like a guy will sit there weighing his options on whether or not to rape someone. If they even consider it, the chances are they are "far gone" enough to do it.

[Palingenisis]

Because vigilante actions like this run the risk of introducing a whole new set of problems.

True but to be frank we dont live in a nice world...We live in a pretty nasty and brutal place and most of the time we are talking about lesser evils and not ideals.

[Nolan]

I've never seen so many people get a hard on because someone lost their genitals. Are IRA supporters in this thread castration fetishists?

[Fat Cat Killer]

Er, she kinda beat you. Marx would look at this and be like "Oh what the fuck is this?"

I'm not saying we should listen to literally everything someone says, but, uh, Marx had pretty clear thoughts about the death penalty and things like that.

I am product of the manifesto, Communist economics are the most superior form of working class emancipation and that is what I adhere to. In no way do I believe that that quote from Marx exonerates sexual criminals.

[Palingenisis]

If they even consider it, the chances are they are "far gone" enough to do it.

I know this will probably sound man-hating or whatever but given the high percentage of women who have been raped I really believe that it could well be something that has crossed a lot of guys minds at least once or twice.

[#FF0000]

I am product of the manifesto, Communist economics are the most superior form of working class emancipation and that is what I adhere to. In no way do I believe that that quote from Marx exonerates sexual criminals.

No he doesn't but he's had a pretty dim view of the death penalty, for pretty simple reasons.

[#FF0000]

I know this will probably sound man-hating or whatever but given the high percentage of women who have been raped I really believe that it could well be something that has crossed a lot of guys minds at least once or twice.

Yeah from my experiences you're actually probably right.

._.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I think there is a difference between "justice" in the middle of a Revolution and "Justice" in a stable society, though.

Would you consider the North of Ireland a "stable society"?

[Fat Cat Killer]

No he doesn't but he's had a pretty dim view of the death penalty, for pretty simple reasons.

you keep your revisionist liberalism and ill keep my Marxism.

[Palingenisis]

Would you consider the North of Ireland a "stable society"?

This is a good point...I live in Dublin and it really does seem that the Police collaborate with drug gangs...One thing is for sure that they really dont give a fuck about my community...I really dont feel like I feel in a stable society at all.

[#FF0000]

Would you consider the North of Ireland a "stable society"?

Hahah that's a good question. I mean I wouldn't say it's totally in flux. I think it's pretty safe to say (unfortunately) that the government in place is viewed as "legitimate" by a lot of people and I don't think that's being seriously challenged right now.


you keep your revisionist liberalism and ill keep my Marxism.

But Marx himself thought the death penalty was a barbaric thing. And I generally oppose it because it's actually far more expensive than life imprisonment and there's a chance you'll execute the wrong guy. That alone basically makes the death penalty unjustifiable, I think, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

[IronEastBloc]

I certainly would not want any rapists in my community. they must be dealt with in a strict manner, whether through corrective labor or execution.

it sounds a bit harsh i will admit per se but if the state is weak with such deviants then certainly that will encourage more criminal behavior.

i have no problem with this. i in fact applaud them.

[Crux]

you keep your revisionist liberalism and ill keep my Marxism.
You are such a joke.

[#FF0000]

This is a good point...I live in Dublin and it really does seem that the Police collaborate with drug gangs...

That's common everywhere, I think. I was actually just reading about how in Freetown Christiania, they gave cops a list of heroin dealers and allowed the cops to come in and clear them out. What the pigs actually did was come in, arrest everyone selling marijuana, and left the heroin rings completely untouched.


One thing is for sure that they really dont give a fuck about my community...I really dont feel like I feel in a stable society at all.

I guess stable is the wrong word.

What I'm saying is that there isn't a revolution going on openly, you know what I mean?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It'd be funny if this was adopted as a social program. Instead of paying for so much jail time and parole officers and therapists and counsellors to deal with the aftermath of a rape, a group of people just blew his balls off with a shotgun. Then tape it and make a tv show.

But really it is barbaric.

[The Red Next Door]

He will not rape no more; i know that much. creds to the irish brothas.

[Manic Impressive]

This is just another failure of bourgeois law, 8 years for rape c'mon? what justice is that? You can get 15 years for armed robbery (without hurting anyone)

When the bourgeois fail (as they always will) to protect working class communities don't the working class have a right to protect themselves?

[Manic Impressive]

It'd be funny if this was adopted as a social program. Instead of paying for so much jail time and parole officers and therapists and counsellors to deal with the aftermath of a rape, a group of people just blew his balls off with a shotgun. Then tape it and make a tv show.

But really it is barbaric.
Well there is a program in America where convicted paedophiles go into a centre after they've served their time and are released when they are deemed no threat to the public. One way which is encouraged is by voluntary castration which actually seems like quite a good plan to me. And they made a tv show about it

[Sam_b]

So that'll be no comeback and no factualities then? I mean, i'm sure we'd all love to see your sources showing the SWP's links with the UVF...especially since we formerly held a stance of critial support towards the IRA...or do we just conveniently forget things when faced with propaganda of the deed antics?

Very conveniently passed over by Fat Cat Killer and Scarletghoul who seemed to be in agreement with fiontann's assertion that the SWP's "mates" are the UVF. Any one of you going to back it up?



+ Preemptive "Nah, I didn't think so".

[StoneFrog]

What if he was actually innocent?

[#FF0000]

What if he was actually innocent?

Guy confessed 8 years ago.

[Sean]

Well there is a program in America where convicted paedophiles go into a centre after they've served their time and are released when they are deemed no threat to the public. One way which is encouraged is by voluntary castration which actually seems like quite a good plan to me. And they made a tv show about it
Pretty sure that was one of Louis Theroux's weird weekends.

Anyway, rather than "Community Action", shooting someone in the bollocks multiple times sounds more like a drunken revenge thing regardless of whether or not everyone applauded afterwards. There's nothing corrective or deterring about it. Maybe if he managed to slink out of serving the eight years or avoided being put on the sex offenders register for life I'd be more inclined to cheer and make dick jokes.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Not naming names but I've seen more than a few people who I know support/take part in direct action antifascism in this topic shun the actions of the volunteers. Seems a tad hypocritical to me, kicking the shit out of Nazis, then saying that republican brand punishment won't solve or change anything. I dunno, most of us support revolutionary violence against the bourgeoisie, isn't a rapist just as bad as a lot of western capitalists? Fundamentally they're both just individualists to whom the consequences of their actions do not matter.

[Manic Impressive]

Pretty sure that was one of Louis Theroux's weird weekends.
yeah it was


Anyway, rather than "Community Action", shooting someone in the bollocks multiple times sounds more like a drunken revenge thing regardless of whether or not everyone applauded afterwards. There's nothing corrective or deterring about it. Maybe if he managed to slink out of serving the eight years or avoided being put on the sex offenders register for life I'd be more inclined to cheer and make dick jokes.
So do you think that we should respect bourgeois law and justice?

If we did that there would be no revolution ever

The law is not there to protect citizens, 8 years is a joke the punishment did not fit the crime and as a result there was a reaction to this.

I find it worrying that people in this thread are blaming the working class for reacting to the failure of the law.

[#FF0000]

Not naming names but I've seen more than a few people who I know support/take part in direct action antifascism in this topic shun the actions of the volunteers. Seems a tad hypocritical to me, kicking the shit out of Nazis, then saying that republican brand punishment won't solve or change anything. I dunno, most of us support revolutionary violence against the bourgeoisie, isn't a rapist just as bad as a lot of western capitalists? Fundamentally they're both just individualists to whom the consequences of their actions do not matter.

Beating the shit out of someone is different than literally shooting their dick off.

[gorillafuck]

Yawn.
Haha you just got absolutely destroyed.

I'm not a supporter of this sort of thing but the person who compared this to a lynch mob earlier was being totally false and outrageous.

[#FF0000]

I find it worrying that people in this thread are blaming the working class for reacting to the failure of the law.

No one is doing this.

[Magdalen]

Very conveniently passed over by Fat Cat Killer and Scarletghoul who seemed to be in agreement with fiontann's assertion that the SWP's "mates" are the UVF. Any one of you going to back it up?



+ Preemptive "Nah, I didn't think so".

Members of the SWP were present at and active in promoting an SSP-organised 'Socialism' event at which Billy Hutchinson, a convicted double-murderer and UVF/PUP member was a main speaker. At that event, Hutchinson was applauded for his exclamation that he was 'a socialist, and proud of it, and British, and proud of it!'. To my knowledge, the Socialist Worker Platform did not object to Hutchinson's presence. Indeed, a former member of People's Democracy who dared to heckle him, telling the audience of the death-threats he had received from the UVF, was drowned out.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah but it doesn't solve anything does it? It's just mindless violence until it actually affects positive change. Also in the antifascist forum there are always comrades cheering when they hear about Nazis getting hospitalised/dying in car crashes.

[The Red Next Door]

http://fav.me/d34dmca




made this my self.

http://fav.me/d34dmca (http://fav.me/d34dmca)http://deepinonespersona.deviantart.com/art/ANTI-RAPE-POSTER-188752474

[Sam_b]

Not naming names but I've seen more than a few people who I know support/take part in direct action antifascism in this topic shun the actions of the volunteers. Seems a tad hypocritical to me, kicking the shit out of Nazis, then saying that republican brand punishment won't solve or change anything.

If you fancy explaining how rape or drug dealing are ideological movements set to detroy any vestiges of working class power and organisation, then go ahead and people might agree.

Also, 'revolutionary violence against the bourgeoisie' would indicate that there is some sort of revolutionary movement which backs up the action. So how does such tactics weaken the position of capital here, or solidly consolodate working class forces to push forward revolutionary goals?

You can't just compare action for the sake of it.

[Sam_b]

Members of the SWP were present at and active in promoting an SSP-organised 'Socialism' event at which Billy Hutchinson, a convicted double-murderer and UVF/PUP member was a main speaker. At that event, Hutchinson was applauded for his exclamation that he was 'a socialist, and proud of it, and British, and proud of it!'. To my knowledge, the Socialist Worker Platform did not object to Hutchinson's presence. Indeed, a former member of People's Democracy who dared to heckle him, telling the audience of the death-threats he had received from the UVF, was drowned out.

What year, and were you there?
How would you know if our platform objected to it or not? Regardless this is a pretty shaky link to tying the SWP to the UVF organisation.

[#FF0000]

Yeah but it doesn't solve anything does it? It's just mindless violence until it actually affects positive change. Also in the antifascist forum there are always comrades cheering when they hear about Nazis getting hospitalised/dying in car crashes.

Yeah but I also think there is a difference between beating the shit out of nazis who are active nazis and shooting the dick off of someone who raped someone almost a decade ago.

[gorillafuck]

If it was a recent rapist, I'd have no problem whatsoever with him having been beaten silly. But shooting the dick off of someone who raped a decade ago is just stupid.

[Spawn of Stalin]

If you fancy explaining how rape or drug dealing are ideological movements set to detroy any vestiges of working class power and organisation, then go ahead and people might agree.
Anti-worker ideological movements are not the only things that need to be fought you know, we can be socialists and still oppose rape.

Also, 'revolutionary violence against the bourgeoisie' would indicate that there is some sort of revolutionary movement which backs up the action. So how does such tactics weaken the position of capital here, or solidly consolodate working class forces to push forward revolutionary goals?
So, we should only support something which is a legitimate challenger to capitalism, is that what you are saying? Should we give up on finding a cure for cancer because it isn't anti-capitalism? What about space exploration? Putting a man on the moon didn't weaken capital, it was still quite an achievement. But then, how does beating up Nazis significantlyweaken capital?

[Magdalen]

What year, and were you there?
How would you know if our platform objected to it or not? Regardless this is a pretty shaky link to tying the SWP to the UVF organisation.

Firstly, I didn't endorse the accusations of SWP being the UVF's 'mates' which were made earlier on - that's something of a leap, and I think the comrades on this forum should know better than to bandy around that term so lightly, in spite of the SWP's record on Ireland over the past forty years, my opinions on which I've made clear in the past.

I wasn't present myself, but I've heard numerous second-hand reports from the event, and not just from members of the RCG.

I said 'to my knowledge' as I haven't heard any rumours of the slightest peep from SWP itself, or any of its members, objecting to Hutchinson's presence. If you can correct me on that, I'd be more than happy to discover that I'm wrong.

[StalinFanboy]

I think we have the technological capacity in today's world to effectively exclude someone from a "community" without resorting to actions that drastically physically alter someone's life for good.


I'm also down with just tattooing "rapist" somewhere on them.

[Sam_b]

Anti-worker ideological movements are not the only things that need to be fought you know, we can be socialists and still oppose rape.

You've missed the point. You made the point specifically with regards to violent anti-fascist tactics, which stem from ideas of no platform. I'm pointing out that this has little to do with vigilante justice tactics.


So, we should only support something which is a legitimate challenger to capitalism, is that what you are saying? Should we give up on finding a cure for cancer because it isn't anti-capitalism? What about space exploration? Putting a man on the moon didn't weaken capital, it was still quite an achievement. But then, how does beating up Nazis significantlyweaken capital?

Again you are missing the point here. You were making the point that vigilante measures are comparable to the revolutionary use of violence. I was again pointing out that this has little to do with the case at hand.

[Sam_b]

Firstly, I didn't endorse the accusations of SWP being the UVF's 'mates' which were made earlier on - that's something of a leap, and I think the comrades on this forum should know better than to bandy around that term so lightly, in spite of the SWP's record on Ireland over the past forty years, my opinions on which I've made clear in the past.

Oh of course. Don't think that I was referring to you or misinterpreting your position here. Apologies if you think I was.

TBH I was asking these questions out of curiosity. I think it was probably before my time - I wasn't able to be at any of the Socialism conferences and wasn't a member of the SSP until around 2004.

[Spawn of Stalin]

You've missed the point. You made the point specifically with regards to violent anti-fascist tactics, which stem from ideas of no platform. I'm pointing out that this has little to do with vigilante justice tactics.
No, I'm not missing anything, you are dodging my question, if you couldn't answer it you shouldn't have responded. Physical violence antifascism is, at its core, "vigilante justice tactics", isn't it? That's not to say that I don't support it because I always have and always will. I was merely bringing to light the double standards displayed by people who laugh when Nazis get their teeth kicked in, but get all liberal when the poor little rapist gets his dick shot to pieces. Do you really think a rapist is more worthy of our sympathy than a Nazi? I don't, in fact given the choice I'd say the rapist is far more deserving of punishment than some little skinhead thug who thinks its cool to wave his flag and shout down Muslims.

[Crux]

Anti-worker ideological movements are not the only things that need to be fought you know, we can be socialists and still oppose rape.
Because someone was suggesting otherwise? Hilarious non-argument by the way.


So, we should only support something which is a legitimate challenger to capitalism, is that what you are saying? Should we give up on finding a cure for cancer because it isn't anti-capitalism? What about space exploration? Putting a man on the moon didn't weaken capital, it was still quite an achievement. But then, how does beating up Nazis significantlyweaken capital?
Personally I do not believe in individually beating up nazis as an effective strategy to drive them out, because it does not build a movement. Self-defence is of course always legitimate. But this is beside the point and mostly part of your reducto ad absurdum fallacy.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Because someone was suggesting otherwise? Hilarious non-argument by the way.
Sam suggested otherwise, and if he didn't then he can deny it and explain what he meant, I think that's fair but he seems to be able to hold his own without your help.

Personally I do not believe in individually beating up nazis as an effective strategy to drive them out, because it does not build a movement. Self-defence is of course always legitimate. But this is beside the point and mostly part of your reducto ad absurdum fallacy.
But do you really think that individual acts should be opposed just because they do not build a mass movement? I'm sure we've all been involved in things that don't, it doesn't mean they can't be progressive in their own right.

[Crux]

Sam suggested otherwise, and if he didn't then he can deny it and explain what he meant, I think that's fair but he seems to be able to hold his own without your help.

But do you really think that individual acts should be opposed just because they do not build a mass movement? I'm sure we've all been involved in things that don't, it doesn't mean they can't be progressive in their own right.
It does mean however it's a poor strategy, and this is just referencing direct physycal attacks against nazis. The vigilantism of the Volunteers is different, they carry guns, purport to act as a vigilante group. Oh and non of their backers here have yet responded why anyone should like a bunch of nationalist socdems just because they carry guns.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Because not all Irish nationalists are socdems? This is a gross misrepresentation.

Regardless, I don't think the point of tactics like these are to build up a mass movement against rapists or other criminal elements. However in the 90s working class Irish used to picket the houses of known drug dealers, which is similar. The IRA have been using these tactics for years and like I said earlier, if people didn't approve there wouldn't be so much popular support.

[Sam_b]

Sam suggested otherwise

If you are trying to interpret my position as that of somehow excusing rape this is nothingh short of slander, and wish you to retract it. Not once did I state that we should not be opposing rape. However, such crimes have social causes, and vigilateism is not the way to solve this as it doesn't do anything to address the root of the problem.

As was pointed out, this is a complete and utter strawman used to make an absurd comparison.


Physical violence antifascism is, at its core, "vigilante justice tactics", isn't it?

No it isn't. Militant antifascism, in my extent of the meaning, deals with physical confrontation and self-defence with regards to organising. This of course, stems from no platformism. There is no such thing as no platform when it comes to rape as rape is not a political movement that has a physical and numbered presence on the street. To my knowledge, rapists don't hold political meetings.

You'll notice that in much of the Anti-Fascist forum I have argued against squadist tactics. I trust you don't need an explanation of what I mean by this.


So, we should only support something which is a legitimate challenger to capitalism, is that what you are saying? Should we give up on finding a cure for cancer because it isn't anti-capitalism? What about space exploration? Putting a man on the moon didn't weaken capital, it was still quite an achievement. But then, how does beating up Nazis significantlyweaken capital?

You seem to interpret ducking questions as one which addresses the points that you make ridiculous comparisons. Saying that this action in Ireland is comparable to violence against the bougeoisie in a revolutionary environment completely misses the obvious point of revolutionary environments here. What I was arguing, that appears to have gone over your head completely, is that the use of violence is acceptable when it is employed on behalf of a mass revolutionary movement that is evidently aiding the class struggle by weakening the causes of capital and helping to bring around a wide class-conscious movement. This is not, you'll notice, stating that everything we oppose has to be from an anti-capitalist basis. Though you will obviously accept that rape is a phenomenon that is steeped in the causes of today's society.

Thus, by what I have argued, the events here do not in any shape or form become and extension of revolutionary violence. You seem to make your comparisons based on "X is bad and therefore similar to Y because Y is also bad". This negates basic theory that I thought you would have been able to grasp.

[Sam_b]

However in the 90s working class Irish used to picket the houses of known drug dealers, which is similar.

If you cast your mind back to a thread that I believe was last year, you'll see the same usual suspects cheering the Republican Action Against Drugs kneecapping of some dealers.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I didn't mean that you were excusing rape. I know I was making ridiculous comparisons, that was my intention, I was making the point that not everything can be looked at in a black and white "it doesn't weaken capital so we should oppose it" manner, we have both obviously misunderstood one another so lalalala that was a waste of time. But now that you say you don't approve of squadism your position at least seems consistent on the basis that you oppose meaningless violence full stop. I was primarily talking about people who favour such tactics.

[Sam_b]

Fair enough I suppose. I felt it appropriate to elaborate here.

[the last donut of the night]

sexual devients


i wonder where i've heard this one before...

[Crux]

Because not all Irish nationalists are socdems? This is a gross misrepresentation.

Regardless, I don't think the point of tactics like these are to build up a mass movement against rapists or other criminal elements. However in the 90s working class Irish used to picket the houses of known drug dealers, which is similar. The IRA have been using these tactics for years and like I said earlier, if people didn't approve there wouldn't be so much popular support.
Then defend the political program of the Volunteers. What I know of the political wings of CIRA and RIRA seems to confirm that.

Of course not, the point is to act like hard men and get an excuse to fire their guns. There is nothing progressive about that and hints at a fatal misunderstanding of how society works, supposed community support has nothing to do with it. They are a dead end.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah well maybe when Sweden becomes a victime of British imperialism you'll see why having "hard men with guns" (:laugh:) on your side isn't such a bad thing.

[Crux]

Yeah well maybe when Sweden becomes a victime of British imperialism you'll see why having "hard men with guns" (:laugh:) on your side isn't such a bad thing.
Because the IRA campaign succeeded so wonderfully? Oh wait.
Funny that a brit should use that argument, considering I have comrades in Ireland, both north and south.
Yeah well, if you are just going to continue to dodge the questions, maybe we should stop here? I have no desire to feed a dishonest little troll.

[#FF0000]

I don't see what the topic at hand has to do with the British occupation.

[Sean]

So do you think that we should respect bourgeois law and justice?

If we did that there would be no revolution ever

The law is not there to protect citizens, 8 years is a joke the punishment did not fit the crime and as a result there was a reaction to this.

I find it worrying that people in this thread are blaming the working class for reacting to the failure of the law.
Punishment did not fit the crime? I don't really buy into the whole Dante's Inferno style of special torture. Was eight years too short a time? I think rape and murder jail terms are pretty appropriate in both the UK and Ireland. I'm all for CRJ of course and I'm not exactly trusting of criminal justice handed down on the people, but yeah it seems reasonable to me. I suppose we could haggle and end up at 15 to 20 years if I talk you down from OMG infinity plus one.

I find it worrying that people in this thread are blaming the working class for reacting to the failure of the law.
When I read something like this I always hear it said in the voice of Tony Soprano's insanely passive agressive mother. They shot a man in the dick. In. The. Dick.
Also in saying I'm "blaming The Working Class", I can't remember there being a ballot on this one, if it was held by the Irish Union of Shop Workers and Dick Shooters I could join as I at least satisfy one of the criteria and maybe I could join this special working class that I'm not a part of. You don't get to decide who is and who isn't working class based on which side you agree on in a forum argument, we're all fucking workers, but I'm sure you can get prolier than thou and tell me how I'm not because I'm not a fucking paramilitary or someone cheering from the sidelines.

[Manic Impressive]

Punishment did not fit the crime? I don't really buy into the whole Dante's Inferno style of special torture. Was eight years too short a time? I think rape and murder jail terms are pretty appropriate in both the UK and Ireland. I'm all for CRJ of course and I'm not exactly trusting of criminal justice handed down on the people, but yeah it seems reasonable to me. I suppose we could haggle and end up at 15 to 20 years if I talk you down from OMG infinity plus one.
Wow seriously you think 8 years for rape is a suitable punishment? Well I reckon the majority of people would disagree with you, but there is little point debating how long is appropriate.


When I read something like this I always hear it said in the voice of Tony Soprano's insanely passive agressive mother.LMAO:laugh:

Also in saying I'm "blaming The Working Class", I can't remember there being a ballot on this one, if it was held by the Irish Union of Shop Workers and Dick Shooters I could join as I at least satisfy one of the criteria and maybe I could join this special working class that I'm not a part of. You don't get to decide who is and who isn't working class based on which side you agree on in a forum argument, we're all fucking workers, but I'm sure you can get prolier than thou and tell me how I'm not because I'm not a fucking paramilitary or someone cheering from the sidelines.
I wasn't specifically talking about you but just had to vent my opinion of some of the posts in this thread. I think some people here have become detached from the opinions of the working class in general although this is going to differ slightly between communities it could have happened in any working class community.

And just gotta ask is all this outrage just because it was his dick that got shot off? what if he'd taken a beating and ended up paralysed? I think you're all too focused on the part of the body that's missing.

[Crux]

The question is a) how could this possibly be "appropriate punishment"? b) even if it were, why should these paramilitaries be the unaccountable and armed force that carries it out? Support in the communities, sure I could buy that, not majority, but support sure. Community control? Hardly.

When did "tough on crime" become a left-wing position?

[Sean]

And just gotta ask is all this outrage just because it was his dick that got shot off? what if he'd taken a beating and ended up paralysed? I think you're all too focused on the part of the body that's missing.
Nah its not some macho thing, its the fact that its a nonstandard punishment and a lot of people are focusing on the idea that use something for bad, have it removed is a sane way of dealing with criminals. Its not. If someone loses an eye in a beating because they were videotaping wee kids thats too bad, if someone has it deliberately removed with a corkscrew because of some throwback bullshit about cutting off that which offends that's fucked up torture. Jeremy Kyle will be settling those child custody battles on his show by cutting babies in two with a sword at that rate.

[Manic Impressive]

The question is a) how could this possibly be "appropriate punishment"?
It's not appropriate punishment, it's a reaction to insufficient punishment.


b) even if it were, why should these paramilitaries be the unaccountable and armed force that carries it out?Because they can. Why should the bourgeois state make the law and why should we or they follow or respect it when it obviously does not work?

[Sean]

^I didn't say that! Edit your lying post lest I cut your tongue out for the Workers!

[synthesis]

He will not rape no more; i know that much. creds to the irish brothas.

Untrue. I believe it was Jeffrey Dahmer who raped his victims with a stick, for example. (I'd give credit to whoever posted that the last time this came up, but my memory is just fucked.)

Perhaps it will come across as suspect that I'm putting myself in this guy's shoes, but I would have rather the bullet go in my head.

[Sam_b]

Because they can. Why should the bourgeois state make the law and why should we or they follow or respect it when it obviously does not work?

I see this as a wee bit of a strawman. I don't think anyone here is supporting bourgeois state and its right to make laws, but this is just using that factor as an excuse for the actions taken.

If anything, and this idea of 'reaction to insufficient punishment' you've completely done away with the idea that this is a) a leftist measure which was appropriate and b) something that the mass of the community supports - as what you've done here is identified that this reaction is a social cause of the current system, and the crime that has been committed is also a social cause. As I said earlier, this vigilanteism does not attack the root of the problem; and by your logic, this action is also condemnable as not going to the root of the problem either.

[Devrim]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)

I have just read this thread and that is absolutely shocking. You can get away with labeling Irish republicans as religious reactionaries because some, though by no means the majority I would imagine, are. However, 'smelly', 'raging' and 'alcoholic' all to me seem to be out of the worst pack of English created anti-Irish stereotypes. You might as well as added 'bog-trotting' or other terms of abuse.

You received an infraction for this:


Couldn't quit while you were ahead, eh? Had to throw the prejudiced language to prove your hip cred?

In any event, you earned this infraction.

Personally I think that if you had used similar language about other minority groups in the UK, say blacks or Asians, you would have been banned, or at least restricted.

In my opinion you should think seriously on what you have said, and consider if you really think this is in any way acceptable.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I think with a lot of English leftists, particularly the anarchists, their chauvinism is so ingrained that they dont realize what they are doing.


The English anarchist movement is quite infamous for its anti-Irish attitudes, Class War which is actually made up of ordinary working class people excluded, and members of DAM on another forum have admitted singing loyalist songs down the pub for a "laugh". You see these attitudes a lot less among other left wing organizations (SPEW maybe excluded) because they are well...more thoughtful.


Im not saying Anarchists in general, thats unfair I realize...But members of AF and DAM in the UK certainly have given a lot of people (not just me that impression).

I am going to presume that you don't know these people, Palingenisis, in which case I think that you are misinformed, quite probably understandably so. Otherwise I would think that you are being disingenuous.

I do know some of them, and personally don't think that the UK anarchists are 'anti-Irish' in anyway. There are a few fools in SolFed (it hasn't been DAM for nearly two decades), including some people who are Northern Irish catholics, who think that they are being clever in some sort of 'ironic' way with these kind of comments. Of course it is not in any way clever at all, and they shouldn't be surprised when people who don't know them and read what they say on an internet forum get the same impression as you do.

However, you then seem to extend this to the AF, which I don't think there is any reason for, apart from trying to tar them with the same brush, which I think is unfair. Yes, when people in SolFed behave like that, one can understand you saying what you do. I don't think that I have ever heard of people in the AF saying the same thing though.

On the point of 'Class War', and its class composition, my impression of the UK anarchist organisations is that they are all "actually made up of ordinary working class people", but that 'Class War' was, or to the extent that it still exists is, the least so. That doesn't mean that the vast overwhelming majority of its members weren't working class, but I did meet two people in it who were the only people that I have ever met who went to UK public schools.

What I think that your posts come across as implying though is that "ordinary working class people" have a different position on the Irish republican movement than people like the AF, who you seem to imply aren't "ordinary working class people". Worse you imply that the AF, who of the UK anarchist groups have probably been most vocal in condemning Irish nationalism are coming from a "chauvinism is so ingrained that they dont realize what they are doing".

As I aid earlier, you probably don't know them, and their is no reason you should be that informed about the political positions of a group in another country. Otherwise what you were saying would come across as smear tactics, which I don't think it was intended to be.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I would just like to point something out these 2 people lived beside 3 schools and were know to be deviants and also the one who got shoot 7 times was harrasing the family of the girl he viciously raped as he was a bully boy. The other raped his own aunt.

Be careful you are starting to sound like the English Sun newspaper. Without having any sympathy for this guy in any way, he was somebody who raped a 30 year old woman. A horrific act to be sure, but what does that have to do with him living beside a school.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Uh...These are not random masked thugs. They are volunteers in an underground army that maintains strict discipline over its members and relies on community support. When things like this happen its usually with a lot of thought and after the community has asked the Volunteers to act.

And how exactly does 'the community' do that? One can believe that it is possible that people within 'the community' had asked them, or that it had support within 'the community'.

I would be interested to know what the mechanisms for 'the community' asking them were though.



well i dont live in some utopian bubble i live in a working class district run by the people for the people and if these people deem sex offences anti social and they want other people to act on that well good enough for me. Will it stop rape and other reactionary acts NO does it curtail it yes. when we declare the workers republic will there still be a need for it YES on a larger scale for a brave while.

What are the mechanism for it being 'run by the people'?

Devrim

[Aurora]

Is this something I have to be a smelly raging anti-abortion alcoholic who worships some half-fossilised former Hitler youth and current leader of the most ominous pedo ring in the world for to understand? :)
Funny when i read this i didn't give it a second thought, i guess it's cause i haven't experienced that kind of attitude towards the irish before. So this is what racism feels like.. learn something new every day :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Your right punishment will not solve crime. Severe punishment on the other hand will.


Well, they used to regularly hang people for committing minor acts of theft, right up to the beginning of the 19th century; funnily enough that didn't prevent theft. Thus I think we can safely dismiss the notion that even the harshest of punishments will prevent crime. You can always spot right wing nutters, they are attracted to the notion of sadistic punishment dished out by the state like flys are addicted to shit.



Another plus is that its going to cost the NHS millions to look after this rapist scum for the rest of his life and probably hundreds of thousands on DLA etc making the occupation of Ireland that wee bit more costly for British Imperialism.

Ah, the stench of a psuedo-leftist nationalist creeps onto this board once more; you are more interested in the token cost this may have to Britain than the impact this kind of expensive surgery will have on eating up the budget which otherwise could have been spent on the community you profess to love so very much.

[Sasha]

Well, they used to regularly hang people for committing minor acts of theft, right up to the beginning of the 19th century; funnily enough that didn't prevent theft.


but hanging is an lifestylist liberal lefty easy way out.
hands chopping, ball blasting and stoning that what fat cat is all about.
you see, the IRSP/INLA crowd here had me almost convinced that the struggle in NI was about socialism and anti-imperialism but than Fat Cat comes by and makes it this whole sectarian reactionary torture fest that puts the worst of Irans mullahs too shame.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

sectarian?

[black magick hustla]

i am glad i dont share the same worldview as people who get off about some dude gettin his balls blown off by the holy warriors of proletariat (tm)

[black magick hustla]

the worst part is that this dude languished in prison for eight years already. i wonder if these folks have less faith in humanity than the state

[Marxach-Léinínach]

the worst part is that this dude languished in prison for eight years already.

Boo-hoo. the poor rapist

[Manic Impressive]

the worst part is that this dude languished in prison for eight years already. i wonder if these folks have less faith in humanity than the state
No the worst part was when he chose to rape someone

[Marxach-Léinínach]

I read on another forum that the bastard bumped into his victim's brother and asked him "How's your sister doing" or something. I have no sympathy for him

[Invader Zim]

sectarian?

Certainly, Fat Cat here is more interested in the fact that the medical treatment of the tortured rapist will, in a convoluted in-direct fashion, cost the British state money, than the far more direct negative consequence it will have on Irish workers in his own community in taking up medical resources and budget allocated for providing medical treatment to said community, is out-and-out reactionary, nationalist sectarianism.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Nope I still don't see any "sectarianism"

[ZeroNowhere]

No the worst part was when he chose to rape someoneAs it appears that we are trying to see who can look most like the American right wing here, the obvious response is: learn English or get out.

[pastradamus]

All I can hear is a bunch of Republicans saying "he deserved it" and a bunch of people who dont agree with what happened.....

Seriously though, in my opinion - it was a bit "animalistic" as the SDLP described it but all the same, im not losing any sleep thinking about a rapist.

[Sasha]

1. This person was found guilty by what we have no reason to doubt was a fair trial.

So "revolutionarys" accept the bourgeois trial but not the sentencing?
We have to castrate him by shooting him in the crotch because prison isn't enough and we know he is guilty because "we have no reason to doubt he had an fair trial"?
Can't have both mate.

Opportunism and wanting to play hardnosed cop, that's as deep as these "politics" go.

[pastradamus]

Certainly, Fat Cat here is more interested in the fact that the medical treatment of the tortured rapist will, in a convoluted in-direct fashion, cost the British state money, than the far more direct negative consequence it will have on Irish workers in his own community in taking up medical resources and budget allocated for providing medical treatment to said community, is out-and-out reactionary, nationalist sectarianism.

I dont think they exactly sat down and did a health related cash-flow forecast on this guy getting his balls blown off.

Either way...I accept what your saying. I don't see the point in doing this act at all. IRA elements such as these have in the past been quite reactionary - we once saw these very same elements killing members of other Republican groups - Namely the INLA members they wiped out in the past.

[pastradamus]

So "revolutionarys" accept the bourgeois trial but not the sentencing?
We have to castrate him by shooting him in the crotch because prison isn't enough and we know he is guilty because "we have no reason to doubt he had an fair trial"?
Can't have both mate.

Opportunism and wanting to play hardnosed cop, that's as deep as these "politics" go.

Who care's about what happened this guy? Seriously, he was a rapist and an abusive person to the public. What annoys me is the IRA's view that its out to help the community by doing such things.

[Invader Zim]

Nope I still don't see any "sectarianism"

Given that you are an apologist for hard-right ideals, which even extend to playing apologist to vigilantes torturing criminals as a form of supposedly legitimate 'punishment', it really doesn't begin to supprise me that you can't spot sectarianism. Possibly, like several other individuals we have had here (though by no means universally) who sport (what I consider to be highly reactionary) nationalist politics, your 'leftism' is in fact little more than a thin varnish masking a rotten ultra-right ideology.

[Musicos]

Fair play to the volunteers who carried this out a resounding well done.
This sends a clear message to all sexual devients that working class justice is not far away.

Working class justice? I was under the impression that our politics were supposed to be progressive. This kind of vigilante mob violence is not an image I feel comfortable about endorsing for the post-capitalist world we aim to create. Sorry but these guys are as bad as the rapist himself.

[Invader Zim]

I dont think they exactly sat down and did a health related cash-flow forecast on this guy getting his balls blown off.

Either way...I accept what your saying. I don't see the point in doing this act at all. IRA elements such as these have in the past been quite reactionary - we once saw these very same elements killing members of other Republican groups - Namely the INLA members they wiped out in the past.

I'm not saying they did, I was commenting on Fat Cat's attempt at justification for this act of torture.

Of course, I do largely agree with everything you have said in this thread. I do not have sympathy for this racist, but nor am I willing to defend reactionary arch-conservatives, who still maintain a facade of leftist politics, in the IRA who feel the need to take 'justice' into their own hands. While I have little faith in the qualifications of bourgeois law makers and judges to develop a fair or just system for dealing with crime and criminals; I certainly don't think the IRA, purporting to represent the 'community', are at all qualified either.

But this masks a real and disturbing issue here, on this board. How many people here have contended that this rapist diserved to be punished more because the 8 year sentense just wasn't enough, and therefor the IRA were justified in their actions? I haven't counted, but a fair few. Now obviously, the reactionary nonsense in that rhetoric is there for all to see, but more disturbingly is the more central ideological reactionary notion that 'punishment', and harsh punishment at that, is not only a necessary but desirable means of dealing with crime and criminals. This is a very right wing concept. It plays into the notion of individualism/intentionalism; the idea that people are criminals because they have inherently criminal tendencies which must be punished for. It ignores the reality, which is the vast bulk of crime (if not all crime) actually has its roots in wider structures outside of the control of the individual criminal. Therefore the best method of curtailing crime is actually to alter how society actually operates, rather than ignore the real cause and simply attempt to punish the criminals. The idea is at the heart of conservatism; blame and punish the individuals, protect the system which created them.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Given that you are an apologist for hard-right ideals, which even extend to playing apologist to vigilantes torturing criminals as a form of supposedly legitimate 'punishment', it really doesn't begin to supprise me that you can't spot sectarianism. Possibly, like several other individuals we have had here (though by no means universally) who sport (what I consider to be highly reactionary) nationalist politics, your 'leftism' is in fact little more than a thin varnish masking a rotten ultra-right ideology.

Do you know what 'sectarianism' means?

[Sasha]

Who care's about what happened this guy? Seriously, he was a rapist and an abusive person to the public. What annoys me is the IRA's view that its out to help the community by doing such things.

Before he became an victim of an horrendous attack I couldn't have cared less if he walked under bus, the world probably would have.been a better place. Now I don't care what he did, I don't care about this persons backgrounds at al anymore. I care about these kinds of poisonous barbaric acts.

[Manic Impressive]

As it appears that we are trying to see who can look most like the American right wing here, the obvious response is: learn English or get out.
What the fuck is that meant to mean you fucking turnip

[khad]

What do the admins say to closing this thread already?

[black magick hustla]

Boo-hoo. the poor rapist

lol. this whole thread is so incredibly gross and simplistic that it actually strikes a nerve in me. people are product of their enviroments and every one of us languishes under an extremely damaging and fucked up world. you folks are the same kind of people who cry "monster" when a bullied kid in highschool snaps and commits murder. the same kind of people who do not try to understand the hell some of these people probably endured before that converted them into animals.

you folks exaggerate the agency human beings have in this fucked up world

[black magick hustla]

No the worst part was when he chose to rape someone

its all about retribution huh

[Invader Zim]

Do you know what 'sectarianism' means?

Sure, but the issue here is what you understand given your patently reactionary politics.

[Ravachol]

lol. this whole thread is so incredibly gross and simplistic that it actually strikes a nerve in me. people are product of their enviroments and every one of us languishes under an extremely damaging and fucked up world. you folks are the same kind of people who cry "monster" when a bullied kid in highschool snaps and commits murder. the same kind of people who do not try to understand the hell some of these people probably endured before that converted them into animals.

you folks exaggerate the agency human beings have in this fucked up world

While I fully agree with that post, let us not forget that rape is one of the most vile, dominating and sexist individual acts in existence. If the victim or the victim in combination with some support would have fucked him up, good for them. The same goes for giving gay-bashers a taste of their own medicine.



The Rapist is not a deviant. Rape is the norm. Rape is not a crime of passion; it is quite possibly passion’s farthest opposite. Passion’s crime par excellence is murder; we can imagine murder for hate or for love. Murder is an act that violates “the right to life” that is promised by governments; its logical conclusion is “pure murder,” a violence without object. Rape has only its object. Rape’s logical concussion is “pure distance.” The Rapist does not hate or love its object; the Rapist only feels distance. At least perverts have their imagination to feel at home with. Rapists are alone even when they are with their thought. They are the saddest creatures to walk this earth.

Rape must be understood in its totality; it is a practice where the singular potency for communication is extinguished. What is called “the lack of consent,” is a useful phrase for the legal punishment of rapists, but it fails to clarify that rape is an act that dissolves the possibility of consent. If I ask “is this okay?” and you say yes, that doesn’t mean it is okay, or that you communicate with same language that I do. Rape hushes the part of us that wants to learn different ways a body communicates. Rapists, although experiencing a deafening distance, wield their sad power against all difference. They rape a body in order to both impose their deep xenophobia, and to genre a body as women, and make it make sense in their world as an object of rape. Because rape hushes the words contained even in our limbs, it is the most hostile act one can wage against an other. Thus, rape must be understood as an act of war.

Rapists are the bosses and police of our erotic lives. They enact the fiction of alienated individuals acting on their “self-interest” within our prescribed sexualities. They reduce the erotic field of play into a productive circuit that genres us into fixed roles. They create our eroticism as a factory of sexualities. They come in the form of bosses and police but also as acquaintances and as ourselves. Only a double edged sword can cut the tie that binds our bodies to their terror. Known Rapists should be routed out. Because this is war, no instrument of violence is unthinkable. For the rest, only an invasion into their territories will reduce their capacity to act. All the zones of eroticism—the bars, the cafés, the house- parties, the schools, the churches, fraternities, the streets—must have their defenses mapped, and carefully assaulted and disengaged. Good that rapists would not want to act, even better when they cannot.

There will be blood and broken bones, but preemptive maneuvers that minimize our energy and resources will position us better to neutralize rape. Courage to speak and to listen and to become sensitive to all the ways a body communicates is how we will be able to distinguish between an environment managed by rapists and one in which we occupy. Each occupation may seem little and harmless against “bros” who get women drunk in order to take advantage of them, and against rape that is called making love that occurs in so many marriages, but each space where there is fearless communication within the erotic field inches closer to surrounding the enemy, and neutralizing his positions. The Rapist’s main source of power is his capacity to occupy both the position of the dark and of the norm. Once he is excluded from these positions and all his faculties to do harm, his instruments of social pressure, gender roles, and sexual reproduction are annihilated, he will be neutralized. Until then, let no more rapists go unmolested by the violence of our desire.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I have to say I neither shocked or surprised that the trendys left wankers are on a full offensive on this thread.
A sexual deviant rapist got his cock and balls blew of with a 9mm, whats the big deal? It was a great job and those who did it have the full support of the working class people in the area that it happened.

What the fuck would you trendy bastards to with a rapist,eh? Probably give him a big hug and hold hands and talk about his feelings? Fuck that shit blast the mo fo in the gennies.

[Invader Zim]

I have to say I neither shocked or surprised that the trendys left wankers are on a full offensive on this thread.
A sexual deviant rapist got his cock and balls blew of with a 9mm, whats the big deal? It was a great job and those who did it have the full support of the working class people in the area that it happened.

What the fuck would you trendy bastards to with a rapist,eh? Probably give him a big hug and hold hands and talk about his feelings? Fuck that shit blast the mo fo in the gennies.

The problem is that you are a right wing arch-reactionary masquerading as a leftist.

[Jazzratt]

What do the admins say to closing this thread already? Why?


Before he became an victim of an horrendous attack I couldn't have cared less if he walked under bus, the world probably would have.been a better place. Now I don't care what he did, I don't care about this persons backgrounds at al anymore. I care about these kinds of poisonous barbaric acts. Well said. it's really quit strange that anyone who opposes this is immediately assumed to be on the rapists side, as if there hasn't been a current of legitimate opposition to barbaric approaches to justice before. I don't think that cloaking the illegitimate violence of this act in crocodile tears for the rapists victims makes it any more right, I find that whole approach cynical and insulting.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The problem is that you are aright wing arch-reactionary masquerading as a leftist.

Erm I believe in Marx's vision for a fair economic system an end to wage slavery and the means of production distribution and exchange firmly under the democratic control of the people.

So in the eyes of some trendy wanker Im a fascist because I support the action taken against some Lumpen scumbag?

Take your head out of your hole lad.

[Sasha]

Even worse, these kind of actions transform indeed the perp in a victim. You can't avenge evil with evil.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Sure, but the issue here is what you understand given your patently reactionary politics.

well sorry if I don't have much sympathy for some lumpen rapist bastard. Would you be so 'live and let live' if it was your sister or mother who was raped?

[Jazzratt]

Erm I believe in Marx's vision for a fair economic system an end to wage slavery and the means of production distribution and exchange firmly under the democratic control of the people. Isn't it funny that when 9 quoted Marx himself you suddenly changed your tune on the whole thing. You're not a Marxist, you're an opportunist selling the police state in a red shirt.


So in the eyes of some trendy wanker Im a fascist because I support the action taken against some Lumpen scumbag? Who the action was taken against isn't really relevant in this case, though, it's the fact you support largely unaccountable groups doling out punishments based on ideas long since abandoned. You might not be a fascist in any traditional sense but you're peddling much the same nonsense as the rest of the far right goons.


Take your head out of your hole lad. I don't think you're in a position to judge who's head is where. It's not like you're even using yours given you're abandoning a system of looking logically with how to deal with crime in favour of screaming for people to sate your bloodlust. Your reasons, if you really consider them, have fuck all to do with whatever class politics you're pretending to and a lot to do with what you consider emotionally satisfying retribution.

[Invader Zim]

Erm I believe in Marx's vision for a fair economic system an end to wage slavery and the means of production distribution and exchange firmly under the democratic control of the people.

So in the eyes of some trendy wanker Im a fascist because I support the action taken against some Lumpen scumbag?

Take your head out of your hole lad.

Yet Marx also pointed to structural forces created by the capitalist system under which we live, as the root cause of crime, rather than to individuals; but I guess he too was a 'trendy leftist wanker'.

Fuck off back under your rock with the rest of the rightwing pond life.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Yet Marx also pointed to structural forces created by the capitalist system under which we live, as the root cause of crime, rather than to individuals; but I guess he too was a 'trendy leftist wanker'.

Fuck off back under your rock with the rest of the rightwing pond life.

so until communism is achieved we should just ignore crime in the meantime?

[Manic Impressive]

Even worse, these kind of actions transform indeed the perp in a victim. You can't avenge evil with evil.
Unless your killing for communism

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Who the action was taken against isn't really relevant in this case, though, it's the fact you support largely unaccountable groups doling out punishments based on ideas long since abandoned. You might not be a fascist in any traditional sense but you're peddling much the same nonsense as the rest of the far right goons.

I'd say they're pretty accountable to the working class communities from which they come from, those communities being their primary source of support and all

[Marion]

Also, 'revolutionary violence against the bourgeoisie' would indicate that there is some sort of revolutionary movement which backs up the action. So how does such tactics weaken the position of capital here, or solidly consolodate working class forces to push forward revolutionary goals?

I'm interested in hearing the answer to this one.

As far as I can see it is "justified" as the "community" somehow made a collective decision and passed this on to those involved. It is then justified on the sole fact that the "community" asked for it. I'm prepared to admit that there may well be very large proportions (perhaps even a majority) of areas that might be in favour of this type of action- after all, bringing back the death penalty is still pretty popular. That's not really the point, though, as revolutionary organisations should not be in the business of doing everything the "community" asks them to or wants. Instead we have a "community" in favour of capitalism (unless I'm hugely mistaken) who supposedly want a more thuggish version of the local police and are happy to let a "revolutionary" organisation do the posing.

Perhaps the biggest clue to the fact shooting up local gangsters or rapists or criminals is not revolutionary is the fact that there's plenty of countries (Jamaica, Mexico etc) where the regular police do this type of thing fairly regularly. In other words, doing this makes the IRA as revolutionary as the local corrupt police in Kingston.

No mention of internationalism, not even a mention of class or workers, no real justification. I'll give it to them, though, if I ever need anyone to waffle on gratuitously about "cock and balls" I'll know where to go...

[Invader Zim]

well sorry if I don't have much sympathy for some lumpen rapist bastard. Would you be so 'live and let live' if it was your sister or mother who was raped?

I didn't say 'live and let live' so you can drop that dishonest nonsense right now; I pointed out the outright ineffectiveness of 'punishment' as a means of preventing crime, but rather to focus attention on dealing with the root cause of crime. You know, exactly the same argument Marx and Engels made:

"crime must not be punished in the individual, but the anti-social sources of crime must be destroyed, and each man must be given social scope for the vital manifestation of his being. If man is shaped by environment, his environment must be made human."


Would you be so 'live and let live' if it was your sister or mother who was raped?

This is of course the typical come back of rightwing cretins; but in reality it is of course horse shit because in reality emotional proximity to the victim does not lend weight and relevence to an opinion on crime and suitable punishment, rather it detracts from it.


so until communism is achieved we should just ignore crime in the meantime?

Again, that isn't what I said; pay attention and stop making shit up.

Furthermore your solution of handing out barbaric punishment to those few criminals actually caught really does 'ignore' crime; in that it doesn't address the actual cause of criminality and therefor will not prevent crime. You're a fucking hypocrite as well as a dumbass.

But aside from your intellectually deficent ramblings, there is a point to be addressed; the reality is that even under capitalist systems there is a considerable range of approaches to dealing with crime, some with more effect than others. And rehabilitating criminals, and addressing the factors that have driven them to crime, is a far more effective way of dealing with criminals than punishing them. The UK and the USA have among the most strengent penal codes in the 'Western' world, yet they also have among the highest re-offence rates. Capitalist nations that have a system that is more driven to rehabilitation have contrastingly lower reoffence rates. Therefore rehabilitation is presumably a more efficent method of dealing with crime than retribution.

[Sasha]

Unless your killing for communism

even in revolutionary warfare there must be place for morality, in fact it wont be an revolutionary war if there isnt.

After the souring and dissolution of Nestor Makhno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno)'s Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine with Bolsheviks the captured Red commanders and commissars were similarly summarily executed. However, Makhno usually preferred to release the disarmed enlisted men that were captured, as "proletarian brothers", with a choice of joining his army or returning home, after all commanding officers were executed. This happened to an Estonian Red Army unit that surrendered to Makhno in 1920.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine#cite _note-6) Viktor Belash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Belash) noted that even in the worst time for the revolutionary army, namely at the beginning of 1920, "In the majority of cases rank-and-file Red Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army) soldiers were set free". Of course Belash, as a colleague of Makhno's, was likely to idealize the punishment policies of the Batko. However, the facts bear witness that Makhno really did release "in all four directions" captured Red Army soldiers. This is what happened at the beginning of February 1920, when the insurgents disarmed the 10,000-strong Estonian Division in Huliajpole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huliaipole).[8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine#cite _note-7)but then again "killing for communism" for you propably means supporting the sending of actual communist to the firingsquads or the gullag so i doubt we will ever come to terms..

[Palingenisis]

Yet Marx also pointed to structural forces created by the capitalist system under which we live, as the root cause of crime, rather than to individuals; but I guess he too was a 'trendy leftist wanker'.

If this was a punishment attack for robbing a bookies or even mugging a yuppie I would be the first (I hope) to oppose it...But we arent talking here about a crime involving property or one carried out for economic reasons...We are talking about rape. Rapists choose their victims because of their at least perceived vunerability and leave them never the same again. Its not something that you ever get over. Do we excuse fascist skinheads who also go out of their way to beat up and murder the most vunerable proletarians because they are "victims of structural forces" (as if we completely lacked free will which would of course make revolution and communism an impossibility). You could use that excuse for let off the biggest scumbags in corporate board rooms and state torturers.

In the real world as it is now how should communities handle rape in your views?

[Palingenisis]

"crime must not be punished in the individual, but the anti-social sources of crime must be destroyed, and each man must be given social scope for the vital manifestation of his being. If man is shaped by environment, his environment must be made human."
.

Man is shaped by his envoirment but he also makes choices that shape it in turn. To deny that rapists are in no way responsible for their crimes Im afraid is absurd even if Marx may have implied it.

[Sasha]

Erm I believe in Marx's vision for a fair economic system an end to wage slavery and the means of production distribution and exchange firmly under the democratic control of the people.

So in the eyes of some trendy wanker Im a fascist because I support the action taken against some Lumpen scumbag?

Take your head out of your hole lad.


well sorry if I don't have much sympathy for some lumpen rapist bastard. Would you be so 'live and let live' if it was your sister or mother who was raped?


i thought we communist our aim was doing away with class, not creating a new one by creative shopping of derogatory terms out of das kapital.
reactionarys kick down, revolutionarys strike up

[Palingenisis]

i thought we communist our aim was doing away with class, not creating a new one by creative shopping of derogatory terms out of das kapital.

You are forgetting that lumpen elements (who a lot of the time are actually economically better off than the proles) pose a real and constant threat to many working class people....So feelings in a lot of places about them run high.

You really should check out this article before jumping all over him....

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134

[Cencus]

I honestly dunno how to react to stuff like this. My initial gut reaction is "good the bastard deserved it".

I've know many folks over the years who have been the target of sexual attacks and every one of them has been seriously damaged. To me rape is as bad murder because of the effects on the victim, it's a truely horrific act that no one should ever have to go through.

The flipside is that I find this sort of thing dangerous in that if it ever became the norm who's to say that folks won't get their bollocks blown off/killed if they piss someone off.

Most folks who are victims of sex crimes don't come forward under the current system, would this harsh justice encourage any mor, I've no idea.

After a revolution community justice is almost definitely gonna happen a lot more as folks won't have the worry of being nicked for such stuff. The question is do we support this kind of community justice or oppose it on the grounds that it's the start of a dangerous slippery slope.

No matter what we will need some sort of justice after the abolishon of capitalism just aint sure if this is what we should be aiming for.