Log in

View Full Version : Question on the LTV



Robot Rebellion
21st August 2003, 02:43
Should the worker be entitled to the fruit of his/her labor, how does the factory construction worker get paid? Or put another way, how can the means of production be public, while the fruit of ones labor remain private, should the labor fruit result in the creation of a means of production???

redstar2000
21st August 2003, 04:09
Try this thread...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6362 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6362)

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

Robot Rebellion
21st August 2003, 04:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 10:09 AM
Try this thread...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6362 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6362)

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas
What does that have to do with the labor theory of value?

redstar2000
21st August 2003, 23:49
The labor theory of value does not apply under communism.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

sc4r
22nd August 2003, 00:08
Originally posted by Robot [email protected] 21 2003, 02:43 AM
Should the worker be entitled to the fruit of his/her labor, how does the factory construction worker get paid? Or put another way, how can the means of production be public, while the fruit of ones labor remain private, should the labor fruit result in the creation of a means of production???
This, IMHO, is actually a very insightful question.

The naked reality is that the two ideas cannot be reconciled,within a socailist notion of ownerships rights, completely.

One has to assume that something is deciding what part of the fruits of anothers labour should go to the creator of production tools (factories, machines etc.) to simulate the effect of directly giving that worker the fruits. In other words the idea that it is self working is so much dog-doo.

This , of course, is why some form of social body is needed. This implies administration, and this knocks the idea of anarchy on the head.

Robot Rebellion
22nd August 2003, 02:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:49 AM
The labor theory of value does not apply under communism.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas
But it applies under socialism/marxism does it not?

Robot Rebellion
22nd August 2003, 03:22
Originally posted by sc4r+Aug 22 2003, 06:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sc4r @ Aug 22 2003, 06:08 AM)
Robot [email protected] 21 2003, 02:43 AM
Should the worker be entitled to the fruit of his/her labor, how does the factory construction worker get paid? Or put another way, how can the means of production be public, while the fruit of ones labor remain private, should the labor fruit result in the creation of a means of production???
This, IMHO, is actually a very insightful question.

The naked reality is that the two ideas cannot be reconciled,within a socailist notion of ownerships rights, completely.

One has to assume that something is deciding what part of the fruits of anothers labour should go to the creator of production tools (factories, machines etc.) to simulate the effect of directly giving that worker the fruits. In other words the idea that it is self working is so much dog-doo.

This , of course, is why some form of social body is needed. This implies administration, and this knocks the idea of anarchy on the head.[/b]
I think various socialist authors have tried to reconcile this dilemma, by stating the capital creator can only get what he put in... The capitalist argue stored labor (AKA capital) is a reward for delaying consumption, and yet surely the reward should be the delay itself and nothing more, as a farmer who benefits from saving his seeds by not eating them in the fall, gets the reward of spring crops and nothing more.

The capitalist ignores the fact that their means of production are worthless without labor. Come an Armageddon, and there exist several people on earth, the factory will be deemed worthless, for it only had worth when it was mixed with labor. As a turnpike operator would benefit from a local tripling of the population, through this was not his hand, to which would seem to contradict the tenant that the capitalist has an objective price on their rent. Labor and the means of production are both important, but it is silly for the capitalist to assign the importance to such a magnitude that he does, for he is utterly dependent upon labor, and preys upon them with his superior bargaining power.

Sort of like a plant that needs both sunshine and water. They are both worthless to the plant without the presence of the other, and for one element to claim importance over the other (like what the capitalist do) would be absurd. Perhaps it would be best to properly share that which can only come about with a union together. A plus for communism and minus for socialism in my book... Ultimately I view socialism as being overly rigid.

Perhaps the only way socialism could work, would be if the stored labor is a public creation, fitting since the usage will ultimately (even in capitalism) be a public consumption. Ideally this would be communally or voluntarily conceived and would not necessitate the state with command economy or a clumsy tax system.

What&#39;s certain is that the current system has misallocated 99.99% of stored labor wealth due to compounded errors, and concern for the modern day factory &#39;owner&#39; who never laid one brick and who fears loosing &#39;his&#39; property to which such pity is misplaced.

Vinny Rafarino
22nd August 2003, 12:04
Mr Robot,


The LTV is only applicable to a socail economic platform. Under a social economic platform where money is still an issue, value is is assessed to commodities and products by using the international market value of each individual product. As any socialist state today will have to inevitably trade internationally with other nations to support their GDP, our nations can easily adopt the value assessments of other nations, keeping your commodites within normal trading perameters. Assessing a value bases simply on the LTV in a &#39;socialist&#39; nation will only serve to attach an inapprioriate value to each commodity, making international trade impossible or even disaterous to the GDP if the value is set too low. As any socialist nation will have to trade with other nations to secure resources that may not be native to their country as well as provide the necessary means to guage production of these goods. The surplus value inevitably created by this system will in turn be placed back into the ecomomy to increase the national GDP as well as provide the needed financial support required to provide social healthcare, housing, transportation and food distribution.

The LTV becomes important once capitalism has been dissolved entirely as there is now no market value being assessed to commodities and products. Without a set value, there is no way to judge the production costs of these products, effectively shutting down production. the LTV solves this problem as well as conquering the issue of surplus value. As surplus value (this value consitutes the profit made by labour exploitation under capitalism) is now re-directed directly[/B]back to the workers[B] as without capitalist markets, there is no national GDP.

So the answer to your question is this, the LTV effectively eliminates surplus value, giving each worker the exact amount of pay in accordance to what he produces, so in turn yes, the worker now gets to reap the fruits of ther labour entirely.


Under a communist economic platform, all of these issues are irrelevant as trade union census organisations provide the necessary production assessments.

Robot Rebellion
22nd August 2003, 16:29
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 22 2003, 06:04 PM
Mr Robot,


The LTV is only applicable to a socail economic platform. Under a social economic platform where money is still an issue, value is is assessed to commodities and products by using the international market value of each individual product. As any socialist state today will have to inevitably trade internationally with other nations to support their GDP, our nations can easily adopt the value assessments of other nations, keeping your commodites within normal trading perameters. Assessing a value bases simply on the LTV in a &#39;socialist&#39; nation will only serve to attach an inapprioriate value to each commodity, making international trade impossible or even disaterous to the GDP if the value is set too low. As any socialist nation will have to trade with other nations to secure resources that may not be native to their country as well as provide the necessary means to guage production of these goods. The surplus value inevitably created by this system will in turn be placed back into the ecomomy to increase the national GDP as well as provide the needed financial support required to provide social healthcare, housing, transportation and food distribution.

The LTV becomes important once capitalism has been dissolved entirely as there is now no market value being assessed to commodities and products. Without a set value, there is no way to judge the production costs of these products, effectively shutting down production. the LTV solves this problem as well as conquering the issue of surplus value. As surplus value (this value consitutes the profit made by labour exploitation under capitalism) is now re-directed directlyback to the workers as without capitalist markets, there is no national GDP.

So the answer to your question is this, the LTV effectively eliminates surplus value, giving each worker the exact amount of pay in accordance to what he produces, so in turn yes, the worker now gets to reap the fruits of ther labour entirely.


Under a communist economic platform, all of these issues are irrelevant as trade union census organisations provide the necessary production assessments.
I don&#39;t like your vision... International trade is a tool to which the populace gets trapped with unpayable debt and unwinnable currency wars. New York bankers will attack your currency with a serious of shorts, to which such a demonstration of lack of faith turns into a self-defining prophecy, as your currency collapses... Some countries will hoard the likes of dollars to prop up their domestic currency to prevent such an attack, but this means you are producing wealth for nothing in an exploited manner. In economics this is all known as the &#39;unholy trinity&#39; and is the reason world trade is in such a mess, and the US is so rich. Perhaps a barter system like what Chavez is doing with oil, might be conceivable...

Your acceptance of one being separated with their surplus value is also disturbing...

On market value being a necessity to determine production, I would argue there is no way in capitalism to determine value. The capitalist figures are (as know in statistics) garbage in, garbage out. Akin to a feudalist arguing without feudalism, there will be no way to evaluate the worth of the peasant&#39;s crops (the implication being the current measurement was objective)...

Vinny Rafarino
23rd August 2003, 09:12
It&#39;s not a vision my friend, it is a reality. Untul the time that inthe international market is not controlled by capitalist nations, any socialist nation will have to comply with the value of commodities and goods that is already in place under capitalism. If a nation refuses to do this and therefore relies solely on the labour theory of value to assign value to their tradable commodities, there will be a severe defficiency or severe excess of value on your products, making trade out iof the question.

We must realise that in order to create a socialist nation in this modern era we must work within the practical boundries of what will actually be viable. And currently, in order to survive as a social nation on it&#39;s way to creating a communist society, national GPD is of the utmost importance.

Without creating and sustaing the means to supply the proletariat with what they have been promised in return for revolution, you can simply not bother because counter-revolution will be right around the corner. Our goal in the communist party during the intermidiate stages of transition to communism is to;


first, create the conditions for revolution.
second, nationalise all property and means of production.
third, increase wages to more accurately provide a fair wage in return for labour
fourth, create socialised medicine, housing and food distribution programmes using a portion of the surplus value on goods produced.
fifth, eliminate the bourgeois.
sixth, re-programme the masses to conform with the socialist model of man.


To accomplish any of these goals, there must be a stable national GDP, otherwise all is for nil. By not folowing these logical economic and political steps, your nation will not have the capacity to provide the proletariat with goals 3 and 4. These happen to be the most important benefits in the eyes of the proletariat.

What collapses national GDP is over-supply of goods versus the national and international demand for these goods causing massive unemployement and depressive public spendig. As social economics uses trade union census data to eliminate over-supply of goods and maintains 100 percent employment, proletarian and government funds are always placed back into the economy. Proletarian international trading is prohibited (as it creates class distinctions) so every dollar given in wages to the proletariat plus 90% of surplus value is going right back into the ecomony with a 10% holdover ratio that&#39;s primary function is to provide "emergency funds" to any portion of the nation struck with any natural disaster, these numbers (charting them out would take too much time and space for a message board) coupled with a rate of unemployment of less that 1% (only those that CANNOT work will not have access to jobs) (reference Okun&#39;s law) will create a model of GDP growth exceeding 3.5% to 4%. (that&#39;s very very good)


That being worked out, the national monetary unit will increase in value every year making it possible to maintain a 3.5% GDP growth rate as well as constantly provide wage increases eventually even exceeding the actual value of the labour used to produce these goods.