Sex-change surgery

[NKVD]

I feel that sex-change operations are a symptom of a reactionary society in which people are forced to mutilate their bodies to have their bodies conform to their personality. Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad, and there is no such thing as transsexual. Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.

Thoughts?

[Volcanicity]

I would say most have sex change operations because they feel that their body is alien to themselves and is nothing to do with conforming with society at all.To wake up every morning hating the sight of your body and wishing you had or did'nt have male/female genitilia is nothing to do with their sexuality more to do with feeling trapped in a body that goes against their actual beings and personality.

[NKVD]

I would say most have sex change operations because they feel that their body is alien to themselves and is nothing to do with conforming with society at all.To wake up every morning hating the sight of your body and wishing you had or did'nt have male/female genitilia is nothing to do with their sexuality more to do with feeling trapped in a body that goes against their actual beings and personality.

Shouldn't it be considered a mental disorder to want to mutilate your genitalia?

[Tablo]

I feel like you are completely wrong NKVD and that is a very backwards view. They don't get it because they are effeminate and gay, they get it because the seriously do not feel comfortable with their body and actually feel they are the opposite sex on the inside. Arguing that this is a result of bourgeois society goes hand in hand with the idea that homosexuality is a bourgeois luxury.


Shouldn't it be considered a mental disorder to want to mutilate your genitalia?
No.

[NKVD]

I feel like you are completely wrong NKVD and that is a very backwards view. They don't get it because they are effeminate and gay, they get it because the seriously do not feel comfortable with their body and actually feel they are the opposite sex on the inside. Arguing that this is a result of bourgeois society goes hand in hand with the idea that homosexuality is a bourgeois luxury.

Every instance I've seen of people being uncomfortable with their bodies has been due to societal judgements. I feel that society is to blame here, not genetics. And I don't see how that can be considered reactionary.

[Volcanicity]

Shouldn't it be considered a mental disorder to want to mutilate your genitalia?
No more of a bodily disorder if a sex change operation can make the person trully happy it's a question of the body becoming tuned to the mind rather than the other way around.Ultimately it's a question that can only truthfully be answered by a person who is Transsexual.

[bloodbeard]

No dude, you're wrong. Some people are literally born into the wrong gender. Do some research on androgen insensitivity syndrome and adrenal gland abnormalities like CAH, and etc.

Besides, it really isn't up to you whether someone choose to have a sex change operation or not, and really who cares if you think these operations are bad or not.

[Tablo]

What if a person wants to have a penis or wants to have a vagina? I don't think they should be treated as if they are mentally ill at all. Some people seriously feel differently than they physically are and want to be modified to fit the way they feel they should be. no matter what the prominent cause may or may not be there will always people that want sec changes. They should be accepted and understood, not looked down upon.

In all honesty I think it would be best to have this question answered by a transsexual.

[NKVD]

No dude, you're wrong. Some people are literally born into the wrong gender. Do some research on androgen insensitivity syndrome and adrenal gland abnormalities like CAH, and etc.

Besides, it really isn't up to you whether someone choose to have a sex change operation or not, and really who cares if you think these operations are bad or not.

I don't think people should be pressured into having operations. The current society considers sex-change to be the solution for perceived transgenders. Besides, getting a sex-change will cause problems later on such as finding a partner who is comfortable with a transgender (I know I wouldn't be).

[red cat]

Shouldn't it be considered a mental disorder to want to mutilate your genitalia?

The way technology is progressing, within a few centuries we will probably be able to replace arms with wings if we want to. Not a matter of mental disorder, just your willingness to use modern technology to satisfy yourself. :)

[red cat]

I don't think people should be pressured into having operations. The current society considers sex-change to be the solution for perceived transgenders. Besides, getting a sex-change will cause problems later on such as finding a partner who is comfortable with a transgender (I know I wouldn't be).

They are not pressured. They opt for it fully knowing all the possible drawbacks.

[bloodbeard]

Besides, getting a sex-change will cause problems later on such as finding a partner who is comfortable with a transgender (I know I wouldn't be).

Ugh so basically that's what it comes down to? it's about what you think or what society thinks of them? You make me sick.

[IronEastBloc]

No dude, you're wrong. Some people are literally born into the wrong gender.

Doesnt that break with and go against a dialectical materialist narrative though?

[Widerstand]

I don't think people should be pressured into having operations. The current society considers sex-change to be the solution for perceived transgenders.

While I don't think it's the policy in all countries, in some there is a requirement to have reached a certain age and to be fully educated about the possible effects before undergoing sex change. If a too young person expresses they may want to undergo sex change they are subjected to hormone treatment (inhibiting the development of their sexual organs) until they reach the legal age, so the operation becomes easier.


Besides, getting a sex-change will cause problems later on such as finding a partner who is comfortable with a transgender (I know I wouldn't be).

There is an increasing number of people open-minded enough to accept transsexuals. Doesn't come as much a surprise that you aren't, though.

Also, most of these people undergo sex change because they feel severely uncomfortable in their bodies, not because they think they are too "feminine" or something like that. There are enough "feminine" guys who may even dress in what is traditionally defined as "women's" clothes which don't want to undergo surgery, and there are enough transsexuals who don't want to conform to the stereotypical image of how a woman has to be, but rather just want another body in which they can feel comfortable.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Shouldn't it be considered a mental disorder to want to mutilate your genitalia?

I don't see why you consider it to be mutilating your genitalia. I suppose you really don't understand it. Some people have penises but want to have vagina's and vice versa. It's more an act of creation.

And there is no reason for a transexual to be labelled as someone with a mental disorder, they feel that they don't belong to the sex they have been born into.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Well since this hits me at home, here I go, gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with who you are attracted to. Some Male to Female (MtF) transsexuals identify as straight women, some identify as lesbian and I identify as a bisexual woman.


Besides, getting a sex-change will cause problems later on such as finding a partner who is comfortable with a transgender (I know I wouldn't be).
Depending on which SRS procedure (there are a few different procedures) you wouldn't know if they didn't say.

And to blame something that I've had since before society had a chance to influence me. I've always hated the male/quasi-male body I was born into. I've hated it all my life and have tried as a little child to claw my genitalia off before I knew what a vagina even is I knew there was something wrong down there. I've always known I was born into the wrong body.

It's my body, my choice and to argue against that is ultimately reactionary. Of course the first modern clinic for GID was in Germany before the rise of the Reich (that was where the first major attempts at full bottom surgery were made) and it was the Nazi party that shut it down. So who's side are you really on? (http://www.cinematter.com/tshistory.html)

The fact is, I was born into the wrong body and repressing the woman I am has done me more harm than good. It is people like NKVD who have been the triggers for most of the suicide attempts I've made. It was because people got me to believe that my existence was wrong. I was almost successful in some of these attempts. This isn't just some obscure theoretical concept, this is a matter of people's lives, including my own. I tried to hang myself in a closet because my existence was a "fuck up" because stupid people who were dumb enough to buy into and believe in the gender binary told me.

As far back as I can remember, I'd sit in the shower and tuck it between my legs and cross my legs so it looked like it wasn't there, so it looked like it was supposed to.

But you,NKVD, with your cisgendered privilege, want to tell people like myself that our own lives don't truly exist? Basing it of the same gender binary that the racist white colonists from Europe brought over to force upon the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

Our historical precedents pre-date modern society. The same society that NKVD says "is to blame here". The gender binary itself is just a reactionary creation of judeo-christian teachings. But we are as old as humanity. From The Hijras in India, to the Muxes amongst the indigenous tribes of whats now Mexico, to the two spirits of the northern native Americans and there were other names through out parts of Asia and Africa. We Transfolks predate the society that NKVD claims causes our discontent with our bodies.

And to claim that us transsexuals "don't exist"? NKVD, who the fuck are you to tell me that I don't exist? Kiss my tranny ass you dumb backwards ass motherfucker! If you were what is "revolutionary" then I'd rather be a "reactionary" because it is people like you who are responsible for people like me having a higher suicide rate than pretty much any other part of the population. Keep your statements off my body, you fucking pig!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

What if a person wants to have a penis or wants to have a vagina? I don't think they should be treated as if they are mentally ill at all. Some people seriously feel differently than they physically are and want to be modified to fit the way they feel they should be. no matter what the prominent cause may or may not be there will always people that want sec changes. They should be accepted and understood, not looked down upon.

In all honesty I think it would be best to have this question answered by a transsexual.
What question?

[Milk Sheikh]

Let's all calm down, shall we?:thumbup1:

I wonder what 'being born in the wrong body' means. What is being born in the wrong body? I am not able to understand that part. That said, I believe everyone has the freedom to do what they want with their bodies.

[Milk Sheikh]

Some Male to Female (MtF) transsexuals identify as straight women, some identify as lesbian and I identify as a bisexual woman.


Meaning?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Let's all calm down, shall we?:thumbup1:
That is easier said than done.



I wonder what 'being born in the wrong body' means. What is being born in the wrong body? I am not able to understand that part. That said, I believe everyone has the freedom to do what they want with their bodies.
I know in a way I fit into the gender binary personally just on the wrong end for what body I was born into. I fit plenty of female stereotypes, that said I'll answer to the best of my ability as not every transperson carries the same identity. I was born into a male body. I've always been a female inside, just trapped. I would rather be dead then spend a full lifetime in the wrong body.

[red cat]

Meaning?

Identifying oneself with a certain sex and one's sexual orientation are independent of each other.

[Volcanicity]

If Esperanza's last post does'nt make the OP shamefaced nothing will.Thank's for for the honesty Esperanza.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Meaning?
what? that I was born into a male body but identify as a bisexual woman? It isn't that complicated.

Gender identity has to do with how one identifies (i.e. male, female, genderqueer, etc).

sexual orientation has to do with who one is attracted to (i.e. homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, etc)

gender identity and sexual orientation do not coordinate. Can someone who understands what I'm trying to explain who knows how to draw it out visually make a visual that explains this? That might help.

Hell, why do I always end up in a position to have to explain myself? Read some Kate Bornstein god damn it!

[Milk Sheikh]

That is easier said than done.
I know in a way I fit into the gender binary personally just on the wrong end for what body I was born into. I fit plenty of female stereotypes, that said I'll answer to the best of my ability as not every transperson carries the same identity. I was born into a male body. I've always been a female inside, just trapped. I would rather be dead then spend a full lifetime in the wrong body.

Thanks for the explanation. I am only asking out of curiosity, not judging you. According to Marxist materialist ideology, people are not born this or that; they're products of social conditions. I am not saying you're wrong, but your views (like inside I am this or I am born that way or I belong to the wrong body) may contradict a strict materialist analysis.

[Volcanicity]

Thanks for the explanation. I am only asking out of curiosity, not judging you. According to Marxist materialist ideology, people are not born this or that; they're products of social conditions. I am not saying you're wrong, but your views (like inside I am this or I am born that way or I belong to the wrong body) may contradict a strict materialist analysis.
When it comes to peoples lives in situations like this who cares what anyone thinks.Any human being has the right to be happy and comfortable in themselves.I'm sure Marx would agree with that if not tough shit.

[Thirsty Crow]

I feel that sex-change operations are a symptom of a reactionary society in which people are forced to mutilate their bodies to have their bodies conform to their personality. Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad, and there is no such thing as transsexual. Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.

Thoughts?

You are an idiotic, bigoted reactionary.

Thanks for the explanation. I am only asking out of curiosity, not judging you. According to Marxist materialist ideology, people are not born this or that; they're products of social conditions. I am not saying you're wrong, but your views (like inside I am this or I am born that way or I belong to the wrong body) may contradict a strict materialist analysis.

:blink:
I cannot believe that I'm reading this.
Y'know, there are possible fields for a materialist analysis, like hormones or other biological bases for the phenomenon of transgedered people.
Ditch the tabula rasa approch, it stinks (just as the biologically determinist one).

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Thanks for the explanation. I am only asking out of curiosity, not judging you. According to Marxist materialist ideology, people are not born this or that; they're products of social conditions. I am not saying you're wrong, but your views (like inside I am this or I am born that way or I belong to the wrong body) may contradict a strict materialist analysis.
Well that analysis applies in many situations, But I wouldn't say it applies to gender. But I'll let the Marxists argue with each other about Marxist theory, I'm not going to worry my pretty little anarchist face over such complications.:p

[Milk Sheikh]

Identifying oneself with a certain sex and one's sexual orientation are independent of each other.

What if preferences change after the sex change operation?

[Volcanicity]

What if preferences change after the sex change operation?
What if they do'nt?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

What if preferences change after the sex change operation?
It isn't too uncommon for people to experiment with their sexuality though out their transition and after they get bottom surgery. People experiment with their sexuality, it happens. People figure themselves out and are all the better for it if they are happy.

[red cat]

What if preferences change after the sex change operation?

Then the person concerned will act accordingly. Trans-sexuals are not babies that anyone else will have the right to decide what is good for them.

[Volcanicity]

Thanks for the explanation. I am only asking out of curiosity, not judging you. According to Marxist materialist ideology, people are not born this or that; they're products of social conditions. I am not saying you're wrong, but your views (like inside I am this or I am born that way or I belong to the wrong body) may contradict a strict materialist analysis.
I just don't know why Marxian analysis or any analysis is even being talked about here.Why should someone live their whole lives in misery just because it goes against Marx or any left thinkers word?That for me is Religious dogma not Marx.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Then the person concerned will act accordingly. Trans-sexuals are not babies that anyone else will have the right to decide what is good for them.
I generally do agree with you. But I actually find it funny that some of the trans groups in Milwaukee consider me the baby of the group.
Now I need to finally try to sleep again since it's been over 24 hours. Wish me luck at trying to fall asleep, it has been a rarity for me lately.:sleep:

[Jazzratt]

OP is a reactionary fuckwad, and therefore restricted, thread moved to Opposing Ideologies where it belongs.

[ComradeMan]

Does it really matter?

If someone is transsex does it affect their ability to function as part of society? If society were perhaps not bigotted towards them?

Transsex/gender people have existed as long as anyone can remember and many different societies have had different approaches to the issue, some very progressive, some not so. Obviously modern medical technology allows us perhaps to go even further with the biological transformation of a person. But still, I don't see this as being an issue.

A transsex person could be reactionary, just like anyone else could be- but I don't think it's because of their trans-ness to be honest.

On a lighter note... "furries" they freak me out.... :lol: Reactionaries, species-traitors, bourgeois collaborators with primitivism.... LOL!!!

To the OP--- it's a big world brother, there's room for everyone.;)

[Volcanicity]

Does it really matter?

If someone is transsex does it affect their ability to function as part of society? If society were perhaps not bigotted towards them?

Transsex/gender people have existed as long as anyone can remember and many different societies have had different approaches to the issue, some very progressive, some not so. Obviously modern medical technology allows us perhaps to go even further with the biological transformation of a person. But still, I don't see this as being an issue.

A transsex person could be reactionary, just like anyone else could be- but I don't think it's because of their trans-ness to be honest.

On a lighter note... "furries" they freak me out.... :lol: Reactionaries, species-traitors, bourgeois collaborators with primitivism.... LOL!!!

To the OP--- it's a big world brother, there's room for everyone.;)
Have'nt you read the previous post's?How can you say that a Human being feeling they are trapped in a body that does'nt belong to them is'nt an issue?

[balaclava]

Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad -Thoughts?

In my opinion, anyone should be able to do what they like with their own bodies as long as they use their own money and are obliged to take out insurance to cover any ‘cock ups’ (excuse the pun). I object when I (the taxpayer) have to pay for it.

[Volcanicity]

In my opinion, anyone should be able to do what they like with their own bodies as long as they use their own money and are obliged to take out insurance to cover any ‘cock ups’ (excuse the pun). I object when I (the taxpayer) have to pay for it.
So you only give a shit about peoples lives when it does'nt affect you?And no I won't excuse the pun.

[ComradeMan]

Have'nt you read the previous post's?How can you say that a Human being feeling they are trapped in a body that does'nt belong to them is'nt an issue?

The issue was with it being reactionary, which I don't think it is.

It's not an issue anyway if people don't make a big deal out of it. If society had not persecuted people for what they can't help it wouldn't be an issue either.

[Volcanicity]

The issue was with it being reactionary, which I don't think it is.

It's not an issue anyway if people don't make a big deal out of it. If society had not persecuted people for what they can't help it wouldn't be an issue either.
I'ts been stated many times in this thread that it has nothing to do with society.How can you read Esperanza's posts without seeing that it has nothing to do do with external pressure it's purely an interior problem. It beggars belief how you ca'nt see that Transsexual people are'nt happy within themselves they hate the sight and feel of their own bodies .I can't begin to imagine how that feels but I for one will back them all the way.

[Widerstand]

I'ts been stated many times in this thread that it has nothing to do with society.How can you read Esperanza's posts without seeing that it has nothing to do do with external pressure it's purely an interior problem. It beggars belief how you ca'nt see that Transsexual people are'nt happy within themselves they hate the sight and feel of their own bodies .I can't begin to imagine how that feels but I for one will back them all the way.

I think what they were saying is that there is nothing wrong with sex changes, except for society's reaction to them.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Volcanicity]

I think what they were saying is that there is nothing wrong with sex changes, except for society's reaction to them.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
People are talking about it being a societal problem and being pressured from outside themselves when in reality it is purely an internal thing on behalf of the transsexual person and has absolutely nothing to do with external pressures.

[ComradeMan]

I'ts been stated many times in this thread that it has nothing to do with society.How can you read Esperanza's posts without seeing that it has nothing to do do with external pressure it's purely an interior problem. It beggars belief how you ca'nt see that Transsexual people are'nt happy within themselves they hate the sight and feel of their own bodies .I can't begin to imagine how that feels but I for one will back them all the way.

What are you going on about?

It's no more of an issue than all the other people who might hate their bodies because they are this, that or the other- the difference being that those people have not been discriminated against in the same ways are not marginalised by society in the same way. Duh!!!

I didn't say it was due to external pressure, dumbass, I said it was an issue because of society's bigotry.

My post was also in response to NKVD's denouncement of transexualism as reactionary.

I suggest you read through the posts and threads before trying to posture all over the place.

I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH TRANS-PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR TRANS-NESS- I DON'T CARE!!! THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODIES AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT GENDER THEY FEEL!!!

It's hard at RevLeft sometimes....

[Volcanicity]

What are you going on about?

It's no more of an issue than all the other people who might hate their bodies because they are this, that or the other- the difference being that those people have not been discriminated against in the same ways are not marginalised by society in the same way. Duh!!!

I didn't say it was due to external pressure, dumbass, I said it was an issue because of society's bigotry.

My post was also in response to NKVD's denouncement of transexualism as reactionary.

I suggest you read through the posts and threads before trying to posture all over the place.

I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH TRANS-PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR TRANS-NESS- I DON'T CARE!!! THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODIES AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT GENDER THEY FEEL!!!

It's hard at RevLeft sometimes....
If it has anything to do with pressure from society then it is external to the transsexual person involved dumbass.It has fuck all to do with hating some part of their body it's to do with hating every part of themselves as if it does'nt belong to them.Which part of Esperanza's post's -who is actually trans herself -are you having trouble with?

[Widerstand]

If it has anything to do with pressure from society then it is external to the transsexual person involved dumbass.It has fuck all to do with hating some part of their body it's to do with hating every part of themselves as if it does'nt belong to them.Which part of Esperanza's post's -who is actually trans herself -are you having trouble with?

Are you really dense? ComradeMan isn't saying that society pressures people into having sex changes...

[Magón]

For those who call themselves Leftists, and yet say wanting a sex change is a mental disorder, or it's reactionary to mutilate your body, all I have to say to that is just wow. What a bunch of idiots.

So do you idiots think that getting a piercing of some kind is a mental disorder since you're mutilating your body in a way? Sure it might not be as dramatic as changing sex, but it's still mutilation right?

Holy shit to this thread.

[ComradeMan]

Are you really dense? ComradeMan isn't saying that society pressures people into having sex changes...

I think he is... but I'll try again because I appreciate that English is not everyone's language here too...

Right-

If society did not have a historical prejudice against transsexuals the fact that someone were a transsexual would be of no more relevance than the colour of one's hair, would it?

The reason that it is an issue is that trans people have been marginalised by society and ridiculed etc etc - I'd call that external...

To say that transness is reactionary, as in the OP, is the exact symptom of this bigotted mentality.

For me, it's not an issue, I know a couple of trans-people, we never even mention it to be honest- because it's not an issue!!!!

[NKVD]

Would you be able to take a transsexual as a partner? That just feels gross.

[Quail]

Would you be able to take a transsexual as a partner? That just feels gross.
Why is that gross? You seem very fucking narrow minded.

[red cat]

Would you be able to take a transsexual as a partner? That just feels gross.

Reading such a post is what feels gross. You should seriously reconsider your point of view. You are discriminating against sexual minorities.

[balaclava]

So you only give a shit about peoples lives when it does'nt affect you?And no I won't excuse the pun.

Limited resources; limitless demands. I might have some hangup about a part of me which could be fixed with a nip here and tuck there but I wouldn’t expect the taxpayers to pay for it. I want my taxes used to pay for people who are get sick and injured and I don't want the service they get reduced because the cash was spent on someones sex change.

[Quail]

Limited resources; limitless demands. I might have some hangup about a part of me which could be fixed with a nip here and tuck there but I wouldn’t expect the taxpayers to pay for it. I want my taxes used to pay for people who are get sick and injured and I don't want the service they get reduced because the cash was spent on someones sex change.
I think that being born into the wrong body is slightly different to just not liking part of yourself.

[ComradeMan]

Limited resources; limitless demands. I might have some hangup about a part of me which could be fixed with a nip here and tuck there but I wouldn’t expect the taxpayers to pay for it. I want my taxes used to pay for people who are get sick and injured and I don't want the service they get reduced because the cash was spent on someones sex change.


Okay... so what about people who have sports injuries? That was their fault wasn't it? People who drink? Do drugs? Smoke? Have an unhealthy diet? Where do we stop?

Hey, we only provide healthcare to people we deem healthy.

This isn't really about cosmetic plastic surgery is it?

[NKVD]

Why is that gross? You seem very fucking narrow minded.

I'm not homosexual. It feels gross to fuck someone who is a man with some surgical changes.


Reading such a post is what feels gross. You should seriously reconsider your point of view. You are discriminating against sexual minorities.

I'm not homophobic if that is what you are saying. I just can't bring myself to sleep with another man (or a man disguised as a woman). It isn't a crime to have one sexual orientation rather than being bisexual.

[Quail]

I'm not homosexual. It feels gross to fuck someone who is a man with some surgical changes.

You probably wouldn't know that a post-op trans woman was trans unless she told you. A trans woman isn't a "man disguised as a woman" - a trans woman is a woman. Your attitudes are fucking disgusting.

[Widerstand]

I'm not homosexual. It feels gross to fuck someone who is a man with some surgical changes.

There's a difference between saying you're not homosexual and saying sex with a transwoman is "gross."

Also, since you were asking: As a bisexual/bicurious I'm pretty turned on by the thought actually. Then again, as kayl mentioned, with modern surgery standards you prolly wouldn't even notice.

[NKVD]

You probably wouldn't know that a post-op trans woman was trans unless she told you. A trans woman isn't a "man disguised as a woman" - a trans woman is a woman. Your attitudes are fucking disgusting.

Nope. The underlying anatomy is that of a man. You simply have changes on the outside appearance that make him more seem like a woman.

[ComradeMan]

This is like Drace II- The Come Back.

[red cat]

I'm not homosexual. It feels gross to fuck someone who is a man with some surgical changes.



I'm not homophobic if that is what you are saying. I just can't bring myself to sleep with another man (or a man disguised as a woman). It isn't a crime to have one sexual orientation rather than being bisexual.

All this is your personal prejudice. What have you got against surgical changes ? Even plastic surgeries and organ implantations are surgical changes. You seem to attach someone who is born with some particular physical features to the related sex. This is a reactionary stand, specially when we have technological abilities to alter those features.

[Quail]

Nope. The underlying anatomy is that of a man. You simply have changes on the outside appearance that make him more seem like a woman.
Him? You mean her? A trans woman is a woman, end of. I doubt you would be able to tell the difference unless she told you, and I'd love for you to fuck a trans woman without realising it just so that you can realise that you're a massive cockend.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Nope. The underlying anatomy is that of a man. You simply have changes on the outside appearance that make him more seem like a woman.

Since you failed to get the message the first time, I repeat:

Fuck off and die

[NKVD]

All this is your personal prejudice. What have you got against surgical changes ? Even plastic surgeries and organ implantations are surgical changes. You seem to attach someone who is born with some particular physical features to the related sex. This is a reactionary stand, specially when we have technological abilities to alter those features.

Plastic surgeries disgust me too.


Him? You mean her? A trans woman is a woman, end of. I doubt you would be able to tell the difference unless she told you, and I'd love for you to fuck a trans woman without realising it just so that you can realise that you're a massive cockend.

Not happening.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Not happening.

You wouldn't know though.

[red cat]

Plastic surgeries disgust me too.

Then the problem is with you, not people who get altered surgically.

[gorillafuck]

I'm not homophobic if that is what you are saying. I just can't bring myself to sleep with another man (or a man disguised as a woman).
You're an idiot.

Edit: I just noticed the post your user title is referencing. Not only are you an idiot, you might wanna get a couple pointers on how to mock people without just making yourself seem extremely unfunny.

[ComradeMan]

I think he thinks it's like Furries putting on a costume....

Look, we don't really yet understand what causes this biological/psychological phenomenon- but those people can't help being the way they are and feeling the way they do- so what's your problem?

Do you find she-males attractive in a secret way and this has caused you to question your own masculinity? Now you are fighting it... deep inside.

:lol:

[NKVD]

You wouldn't know though.

You think I'd never find out? Really?


I think he thinks it's like Furries putting on a costume....

Look, we don't really yet understand what causes this biological/psychological phenomenon- but those people can't help being the way they are and feeling the way they do- so what's your problem?

Do you find she-males attractive in a secret way and this has caused you to question your own masculinity? Now you are fighting it... deep inside.

:lol:

Or maybe I'm a woman in a man's body and can't handle it. Just sayin. :laugh:

[Quail]

You think I'd never find out? Really?



Or maybe I'm a woman in a man's body and can't handle it. Just sayin. :laugh:
Stop being such a dickhead.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

You think I'd never find out? Really?

Unless you're psychic. No.

[ComradeMan]

You think I'd never find out? Really?



Or maybe I'm a woman in a man's body and can't handle it. Just sayin. :laugh:

Okay.....

Could you explain just exactly what your issue with trans-people is?

Live and let live- it's not like anyone is forcing you to have a sex change is it?

[NKVD]

Okay.....

Could you explain just exactly what your issue with trans-people is?

Live and let live- it's not like anyone is forcing you to have a sex change is it?

I never said I had an issue with having an attitude of live and let live towards trans-people. I just was arguing from a materialist standpoint that our treatment might be wrong. The only "issue" I have is that I'm not willing to have a transsexual as a partner.


Unless you're psychic. No.

So when we try to have children he'll pretend he doesn't know he's infertile?

[Widerstand]

So when we try to have children he'll pretend he doesn't know he's infertile?

Do you try to have children with everyone you sleep with?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

So when we try to have children he'll pretend he doesn't know he's infertile?

You incorrectly assume anyone would want to have sexual relations with you. Let alone children.

[NKVD]

Do you try to have children with everyone you sleep with?

Have you not been reading anything about me wanting long-term monogamous relationships?


You incorrectly assume anyone would want to have sexual relations with you. Let alone children.

Including trannies?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Including trannies?

Enjoy your ban. Prick.

[ComradeMan]

I never said I had an issue with having an attitude of live and let live towards trans-people. I just was arguing from a materialist standpoint that our treatment might be wrong. The only "issue" I have is that I'm not willing to have a transsexual as a partner.

So when we try to have children he'll pretend he doesn't know he's infertile?

You know MATERIALISM isn't the be-all and end-all of everything, as even Marx pointed out.

Now, was this your standpoint or something you read, or a combination?

[Blackscare]

What a stupid fucking troll.

[Blackscare]

I mean, you guys realize that this exact strategy is on the ED page about trolling revleft, right?

[NKVD]

Enjoy your ban. Prick.

Whatever happens I've accomplished one thing: I've made a purge-happy Stalinist out of you.


You know MATERIALISM isn't the be-all and end-all of everything, as even Marx pointed out.

Now, was this your standpoint or something you read, or a combination?

It was a mixture of my personal reservations with transsexuality and materialist arguments I have read criticizing transsexual surgery.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Whatever happens I've accomplished one thing: I've made a purge-happy Stalinist out of you.

You can't purge scum.

[Blackscare]

NKVD, assuming for a second that you're not a troll, where in your self-absorbed mindset do you actually come to the conclusion that your own childish hang-ups would be of any concern to anyone else?


Only a fucking 7th grader would think that a mature opinion consisted of "well, I think that's gross, so I'm against it".

[ComradeMan]

NKVD, assuming for a second that you're not a troll, where in your self-absorbed mindset do you actually come to the conclusion that your own childish hang-ups would be of any concern to anyone else?


Only a fucking 7th grader would think that a mature opinion consisted of "well, I think that's gross, so I'm against it".

Perhaps he is a 7th grader...

Let's try to reason with this guy....

NKVD are you a 7th grader?

[Volcanicity]

Would you be able to take a transsexual as a partner? That just feels gross.
Welcome back Thomas Sankara.

[ComradeMan]

It was a mixture of my personal reservations with transsexuality and materialist arguments I have read criticizing transsexual surgery.

So what are your personal reservations?

Explain= in a sincere way.

Which materialist arguments?

[NKVD]

NKVD, assuming for a second that you're not a troll, where in your self-absorbed mindset do you actually come to the conclusion that your own childish hang-ups would be of any concern to anyone else?


Only a fucking 7th grader would think that a mature opinion consisted of "well, I think that's gross, so I'm against it".

I don't. I'm merely trying to learn.


Perhaps he is a 7th grader...

Let's try to reason with this guy....

NKVD are you a 7th grader?

I'll be an adult in 20 years.

[Blackscare]

I'll be an adult in 20 years.

Don't you think you're being a tad optimistic there?

[Ele'ill]

I feel that sex-change operations are a symptom of a reactionary society in which people are forced to mutilate their bodies to have their bodies conform to their personality. Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad, and there is no such thing as transsexual. Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.


What if it's a woman in a man's body who is attracted to women?

[NKVD]

Welcome back Thomas Sankara.

Oh THAT Thomas Sankara.


So what are your personal reservations?

Explain= in a sincere way.

Which materialist arguments?

My reservations are that people are forced to conform to societies expectations and thus they will be forced to conform to societal gender roles by changing their bodies. The materialist argument is that a woman can't be born in a man's body, it is just society that causes it.

[Blackscare]

Wait, do you realize that there's typically huge societal pressure/discrimination against trans people? How are they "conforming" by getting surgery and correcting gender?


If anything, there's a ton of pressure to not acknowledge such feelings and continue on "as god intended".


Jesus, you're a fucking idort.

[gorillafuck]

NKVD probably is a troll who read the ED page. I didn't think of that.

Most of the trolls we get around here don't even know how to troll, so this would be a change.

[ComradeMan]

My reservations are that people are forced to conform to societies expectations and thus they will be forced to conform to societal gender roles by changing their bodies. The materialist argument is that a woman can't be born in a man's body, it is just society that causes it.

Why? Does society expect a person born as a "man" to become a woman? I think it's quite the opposite really, don't you?

Okay, look, technically a trans man is always going to have a Y-chromosome, but you could also argue that what you perceive as gender is behavioural too, thus based on society? See what I mean?

[NKVD]

NKVD probably is a troll who read the ED page. I didn't think of that.

ED page?

[Blackscare]

NKVD probably is a troll who read the ED page. I didn't think of that.

Most of the trolls we get around here don't even know how to troll, so this would be a change.


Yea, why am I indulging in this. I fucking pointed this out :laugh:

[gorillafuck]

ED page?
Endless dreamers.

[NKVD]

Endless dreamers.

This? (http://endless-dreamers.net/)

[danyboy27]

Sex change operation are verry well supervised, the person who want to have one need to past a tremendous battery of psychological and physiological test to be absolutely sure that the person is a sane and conscious individual.

Basicly, this is not a really big deal, the difference between a man and a women is defined by a damn chromosome. Look at any anatomic chart, the female sexual organ is just a Penis that have undergone a different process.

Some of these operation are so sucessful, you cant tell the difference between a normal women and a men that have decided to become a woman.

[Kotze]

The underlying anatomy is that of a man. You simply have changes on the outside appearance that make him more seem like a woman.Actually, the average male and average female brain are a bit different and with trans people it is often the case that there is something in their noggin that is like what you find in the other sex then the one they are born with (here is an incomprehensible study about it (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)).

As for all those YOU WOULDN'T KNOW IF YOU FUCKED A TRANS PERSON SO HURFDURF AT YOU SIR comments: Even though things are getting better that simply isn't true in many, many, many cases. I understand that people here want to be supportive of trans persons, but when you say stuff like that or pretend that only a microscopic group of people are grossed out by trans persons, you are just not being truthful.

Ignorance can be addressed by education, but you can't dictate personal preferences. I for example think that people who find eating insects scary are very childish, but I don't call you reactionary just for being idiots :P

[Palingenisis]

My reservations are that people are forced to conform to societies expectations and thus they will be forced to conform to societal gender roles by changing their bodies. The materialist argument is that a woman can't be born in a man's body, it is just society that causes it.

I think things though are more complicated. Men and women are also wired different emotionally, etc. There is a psychic as well as a a physical component to gender.

[Magón]

NKVD how about you follows these 3 simple steps.

1. Buy a gun/knife

2. Purge yourself with said weapon.

3. ????

[Palingenisis]

Look I think we are forgetting something....Most men find the idea of a knife anywhere near they genitals a tad disturbing to say the least...Hence NKVD's reaction to this topic. Of course the oh-so we hate moralizing crowd have to turn it into some hysterical drama rather than calmly reflect over the issue...Nah, y'll hate moralizing. :rolleyes:

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Look I think we are forgetting something....Most men find the idea of a knife anywhere near they genitals a tad disturbing to say the least...Hence NKVD's reaction to this topic. Of course the oh-so we hate moralizing crowd have to turn it into some hysterical drama rather than calmly reflect over the issue...Nah, y'll hate moralizing. :rolleyes:
Are you really complaining about moralizing Pali?

[Palingenisis]

Since you failed to get the message the first time, I repeat:

Fuck off and die

I see that Witerstand thanked that post and yet on another thread he was moaning about people being made social rejects for transgressing moral boundaires being forced to kill themselves...Conistency isnt your strong point a chara?

[Palingenisis]

Are you really complaining about moralizing Pali?

Nope....I dont have a problem with moralizing as such.

Hypocracy that is just so baltant and yet completely unaware of itself is another issue though.

[ComradeMan]

^^^^ This is the same person who is on a death penalty group for those who hurt children and yet accuses me of moralising when I don't want to support the Shining Path because they commit atrocities against err.... innocent women and children?

Confusing.

[Magón]

Look I think we are forgetting something....Most men find the idea of a knife anywhere near they genitals a tad disturbing to say the least...Hence NKVD's reaction to this topic. Of course the oh-so we hate moralizing crowd have to turn it into some hysterical drama rather than calmly reflect over the issue...Nah, y'll hate moralizing. :rolleyes:

Just because men don't like the idea of a knife or anything harmful near their dick and balls, doesn't mean that NKVD's idea that being transgendered is reactionary, isn't any less disgusting than it already is.

I'm a guy who wouldn't want anything happening to my dick or balls, but I don't care if another guy who wants to become a woman for whatever reason, shouldn't be able to. I definitely wouldn't call them reactionary or disgusting. Accepting people for who they are, and what they believe they should be is what being a leftist is about. Calling a selective group of people "gross" or "reactionary" is reactionary in and of itself when you're claiming to be a "leftist".

I believe there was a guy in the 30s & 40s who couldn't accept a group of people, and started killing them off, and deeming them sick and shit. This is no different than that.

[Widerstand]

I see that Witerstand thanked that post and yet on another thread he was moaning about people being made social rejects for transgressing moral boundaires being forced to kill themselves...Conistency isnt your strong point a chara?


I advocate positive freedom, best summed up by Bakunin's "The freedom of all is essential to my freedom."

I think that people who actively attack another's right to develop themselves and live as they want to (which condemning transphobes is) should be taken care of one way or another (informing and arguing with them, or in the case of psychopaths rehabilitation, being the preferred methods).

[Palingenisis]

Just because men don't like the idea of a knife or anything harmful near their dick and balls, doesn't mean that NKVD's idea that being transgendered is reactionary, isn't any less disgusting than it already is.


Where did I say it wasnt reactionary?...But in real life outside of trendy university circles you come across reactionary views all the time. If someone isnt an out and out fascist than I think its best to calmly argue things out with them.

[Widerstand]

Where did I say it wasnt reactionary?...But in real life outside of trendy university circles you come across reactionary views all the time. If someone isnt an out and out fascist than I think its best to calmly argue things out with them.

YOU didn't say it was reactionary, but NKVD did, in the first post of this thread.

[NKVD]

Just because men don't like the idea of a knife or anything harmful near their dick and balls, doesn't mean that NKVD's idea that being transgendered is reactionary, isn't any less disgusting than it already is.

I'm a guy who wouldn't want anything happening to my dick or balls, but I don't care if another guy who wants to become a woman for whatever reason, shouldn't be able to. I definitely wouldn't call them reactionary or disgusting. Accepting people for who they are, and what they believe they should be is what being a leftist is about. Calling a selective group of people "gross" or "reactionary" is reactionary in and of itself when you're claiming to be a "leftist".

I believe there was a guy in the 30s & 40s who couldn't accept a group of people, and started killing them off, and deeming them sick and shit. This is no different than that.

It's not like I'll discriminate against transsexuals. I was just asking if it is treated properly (or if it is something that needs to be treated in the first place).

[Palingenisis]

I think that people who actively attack another's right to develop themselves and live as they want to (which condemning transphobes is) should be taken care of one way or another (informing and arguing with them, or in the case of psychopaths rehabilitation, being the preferred methods).

But you just made out that you want transphobes to kill themselves? And be driven out of society? To fuck off and die?

While kiddie fiddlers and sociopaths should be treated as big cuddly bunnies...:rolleyes:

You are all over the place

[Widerstand]

But you just made out that you want transphobes to kill themselves? And be driven out of society? To fuck off and die?

Well, first off, CW's post was a post out of (imo very understandable) aggression.

No I don't think NKVD should kill themselves, nor do I think we should systematically bully transphobes into suicide, although, seeing as how the very same transphobes you so love to defend, bully transsexuals into suicide on a daily basis, I can understand why people get angry about it.

[Magón]

It's not like I'll discriminate against transsexuals. I was just asking if it is treated properly (or if it is something that needs to be treated in the first place).

Call thing them "gross" and "reactionary" is discriminating. Just because you don't like what they're doing, doesn't mean they should stop doing it. Would I ever think of becoming a woman? No, but I have transgendered friends who have, and there's nothing more an outside party like myself can say or do, than to support them. Even if I think they're okay as they are, and don't think they have to, I'll support them either way. I would never consider them "gross" or "reactionary" like you do. That's just a sickening and fucked thing to say, especially with this subject since it's a very emotional one too.

[NKVD]

Call thing them "gross" and "reactionary" is discriminating. Just because you don't like what they're doing, doesn't mean they should stop doing it. Would I ever think of becoming a woman? No, but I have transgendered friends who have, and there's nothing more an outside party like myself can say or do, than to support them. Even if I think they're okay as they are, and don't think they have to, I'll support them either way. I would never consider them "gross" or "reactionary" like you do. That's just a sickening and fucked thing to say, especially with this subject since it's a very emotional one too.

I said it is a symptom of a reactionary society. And that I find it gross for me to sleep with a transsexual. I don't recall considering them either gross or reactionary. If I did, I must not have written my post properly.

[L.A.P.]

Congratulations NKVD! You got your ass restricted! Now you'll be stuck in the gulag spending your time on Reactionary Chatter watching Mari3L, ComradeMan, and Bud Struggle have pointless conversations. You just couldn't leave transexuals alone could you?

[NKVD]

Congratulations NKVD! You got your ass restricted! Now you'll be stuck in the gulag spending your time on Reactionary Chatter watching Mari3L, ComradeMan, and Bud Struggle have pointless conversations. You just couldn't leave transexuals alone could you?

I didn't realize asking a few questions would get me restricted. Perhaps I should have posted in Learning.

[Manic Impressive]

NKVD is a troll how has everyone else not realised this yet?

[Magón]

I said it is a symptom of a reactionary society. And that I find it gross for me to sleep with a transsexual. I don't recall considering them either gross or reactionary. If I did, I must not have written my post properly.

You do know you said it should be considered a mental disorder, right? That's both reactionary and just fucked to say. You're a waste of time and space. Maybe you should choose your words more carefully next time before stating your PERSONAL opinion, rather than saying shit like that which makes you out to be a Fascist.

[ComradeMan]

Congratulations NKVD! You got your ass restricted! Now you'll be stuck in the gulag spending your time on Reactionary Chatter watching Mari3L, ComradeMan, and Bud Struggle have pointless conversations. You just couldn't leave transexuals alone could you?

Is that why you post there too? :lol:

Shame there are no restricted trans people..... LOL!!!

[NKVD]

NKVD is a troll how has everyone else not realised this yet?

I'm certainly not the one trolling. Every time I make a serious post I get replies like "Fuck of and die".

[Quail]

What does that tell you about your opinions?

[L.A.P.]

I didn't realize asking a few questions would get me restricted. Perhaps I should have posted in Learning.

Well true, you did just ask questions but what you did imply was transphobic. How about this, when you get your views on transexuals figured out and it happens to be that you believe in equal rights for them then go and beg for forgiveness from the Admins.

[NKVD]

You do know you said it should be considered a mental disorder, right? That's both reactionary and just fucked to say. You're a waste of time and space. Maybe you should choose your words more carefully next time before stating your PERSONAL opinion, rather than saying shit like that which makes you out to be a Fascist.

I admit that was a bit over the top. I meant to imply that I was skeptical that people would actually want to change their genitalia.

[Manic Impressive]

I'm certainly not the one trolling. Every time I make a serious post I get replies like "Fuck of and die".
Which is an understandable reaction to your trolling.

I've just gotta say congratulations on lasting so long without being restricted or banned until now.

[Blackscare]

You should have to verify your age somehow to post here.

[Blackscare]

Which is an understandable reaction to your trolling.

I've just gotta say congratulations on lasting so long without being restricted or banned until now.


He got restricted a few pages back :D

[NKVD]

Which is an understandable reaction to your trolling.

I've just gotta say congratulations on lasting so long without being restricted or banned until now.

Who's trolling here?


You should have to verify your age somehow to post here.

I'll solve a differential equation for you if you like.

[Manic Impressive]

yeah he should have been restricted at least yesterday when he said people who do not want to be in monogamous relationship should be encouraged to commit suicide.

[Blackscare]

I'll solve a differential equation for you if you like.


How about doing something a little more difficult? Like, displaying a modicum of maturity perhaps.

[Magón]

I admit that was a bit over the top. I meant to imply that I was skeptical that people would actually want to change their genitalia.

Why should you be skeptical though? What they do with their body is their choice, not yours. Like I said, if I had another transgendered friend who wanted to become a man or woman, I'd let them, and would hold no problems against them, or skepticism for them wanting to do it. No matter what the reason, anyone who wants to do anything with their own body, is their personal actions and opinion.

If I wanted to get a tattoo or pierce my ball sack, would you be skeptical about that? I mean, I'm mutilating my body in a way, and you seem to be skeptical about people doing such things. When it gets right down to it, it's none of your business what someone else does with their body. No matter whether you'd have sex with them or not, whether that makes you homosexual or not, doesn't matter.

[L.A.P.]

Is that why you post there too? :lol:

Yes.

[NKVD]

Why should you be skeptical though? What they do with their body is their choice, not yours. Like I said, if I had another transgendered friend who wanted to become a man or woman, I'd let them, and would hold no problems against them, or skepticism for them wanting to do it. No matter what the reason, anyone who wants to do anything with their own body, is their personal actions and opinion.

I don't agree with your libertarian reasoning, but yes I would let them too, and would hold no problems against them either. My beef isn't with transgenders. My only question is wether society "treats" it properly, or more importantly wether there is something that needs to be "treated".


If I wanted to get a tattoo or pierce my ball sack, would you be skeptical about that? I mean, I'm mutilating my body in a way, and you seem to be skeptical about people doing such things. When it gets right down to it, it's none of your business what someone else does with their body. No matter whether you'd have sex with them or not, whether that makes you homosexual or not, doesn't matter.

Yeah I don't think people should mutilate themselves, wether it is circumcision or piercings. Obviously I have a bigger problem with the former than with the latter. It seems from the previous posts like there is an actual reason other than just gender norms for transgenders to surgically change their genders, so I would make an exception for that.

[Blackscare]

Yeah I don't think people should mutilate themselves, wether it is circumcision or piercings. Obviously I have a bigger problem with the former than with the latter. It seems from the previous posts like there is an actual reason other than just gender norms for transgenders to surgically change their genders, so I would make an exception for that.

Wait, so you're against any kind of body modification now? I happen to like tattoos, you wouldn't let me get them? Fuck you.

[NKVD]

Wait, so you're against any kind of body modification now? I happen to like tattoos, you wouldn't let me get them? Fuck you.

By piercings I meant more of the kind of inserting metal onto your body, not ink. And I wouldn't stop you from getting a piercing. I just think people shouldn't. I wouldn't even treat you any differently.

[Magón]

I don't agree with your libertarian reasoning, but yes I would let them too, and would hold no problems against them either. My beef isn't with transgenders. My only question is wether society "treats" it properly, or more importantly wether there is something that needs to be "treated".

If society treated Transgendered folk properly, we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor would anyone be talking about the "ethical" and "moral" problems of having a transgendered operation. But people like you who say stupid shit, make it a problem.


Yeah I don't think people should mutilate themselves, wether it is circumcision or piercings. Obviously I have a bigger problem with the former than with the latter. It seems from the previous posts like there is an actual reason other than just gender norms for transgenders to surgically change their genders, so I would make an exception for that.

So you wouldn't let me get my ball sack, nipple, tongue, ear, lip, eyebrow, or anything be pierced?

[Blackscare]

By piercings I meant more of the kind of inserting metal onto your body, not ink.


And the big difference is?

So, your world view basically amounts to "I don't like that, so you can't do it".


Who gives a shit about piercings? It's an aesthetic thing, it's different than cutting yourself or whatever. I also have piercings.

[NKVD]

If society treated Transgendered folk properly, we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor would anyone be talking about the "ethical" and "moral" problems of having a transgendered operation. But people like you who say stupid shit, make it a problem.

I'd treat transgendered people the same way I'd treat non-transgendered people (with the exception being sleeping with them).


So you wouldn't let me get my ball sack, nipple, tongue, ear, lip, eyebrow, or anything be pierced?

I'd let you do anything you want. I don't think you should though.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm not homosexual. It feels gross to fuck someone who is a man with some surgical changes.
I don't have sex with Gay guys nor straight women. The genitalia I was born with doesn't define my gender. I also think the question isn't whether you would date a Transsexual but whether a transsexual would ever want to even come near a dumb fuck face like yourself. By the ways I'm engaged to a straight man.




I'm not homophobic if that is what you are saying. I just can't bring myself to sleep with another man (or a man disguised as a woman). It isn't a crime to have one sexual orientation rather than being bisexual.
Once again, you are an idiot.

[NKVD]

And the big difference is?

So, your world view basically amounts to "I don't like that, so you can't do it".


Who gives a shit about piercings? It's an aesthetic thing, it's different than cutting yourself or whatever. I also have piercings.

:confused: It amounts to "I think you shouldn't do it." Not "you can't do it."

[Blackscare]

By the ways I'm engaged to a straight man.

inb4 "He's not straight"

[Magón]

I'd treat transgendered people the same way I'd treat non-transgendered people (with the exception being sleeping with them).



I'd let you do anything you want. I don't think you should though.

What the fuck is it to you if I do get piercing? How in any way, shape, or form, does me getting a piercing, hurt or make you think less of me?

[NKVD]

I don't have sex with Gay guys nor straight women. The genitalia I was born with doesn't define my gender. I also think the question isn't whether you would date a Transsexual but whether a transsexual would ever want to even come near a dumb fuck face like yourself. By the ways I'm engaged to a straight man.

Problem solved then.


Once again, you are an idiot.

It doesn't make any difference, since no trans would date me.

[NKVD]

What the fuck is it to you if I do get piercing? How in any way, shape, or form, does me getting a piercing, hurt or make you think less of me?

It doesn't... I think wanting to pierce your skin is weird, but it's no big deal. Circumcision on the other hand. :crying:

[Widerstand]

What the fuck is it to you if I do get piercing? How in any way, shape, or form, does me getting a piercing, hurt or make you think less of me?

How it makes them think less of you?

Easy, by them being easily offended authoritarian control freaks who panic at the thought of people having sex outside of marriage.

[Tablo]

It doesn't... I think wanting to pierce your skin is weird, but it's no big deal. Circumcision on the other hand. :crying:
I'm circumcised. Is there a problem with that?

[Magón]

Problem solved then.



It doesn't make any difference, since no trans would date me.

You know, it's kind of funny NKVD. Whenever you hear someone speaking out against Gay Marriage/Sex, and other things "obscene" or "gross", it usually ends up with them being caught doing what they're so against in the public eye.

So maybe you're personally confused on which sexual preference/gender you are, and that's why you had to speak out about it like this? Which if you are, there's no reason to be, and I'm sure people here will support your decision either way you go? (And I'm not being sarcastic.)

[ComradeMan]

NKVD--- what do you think about Furries?

Or the Cat Person?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1Dcdml5DUgUXZAUu-ErcBznw5thou6wO6Vql4NsEtiNRW_jsCVA

[danyboy27]

It doesn't... I think wanting to pierce your skin is weird, but it's no big deal. Circumcision on the other hand. :crying:

Mind your own buisness buddy, something a consenting adult do to its body is none of your buisness :D

[NKVD]

You know, it's kind of funny NKVD. Whenever you hear someone speaking out against Gay Marriage/Sex, and other things "obscene" or "gross", it usually ends up with them being caught doing what they're so against in the public eye.

So maybe you're personally confused on which sexual preference/gender you are, and that's why you had to speak out about it like this? Which if you are, there's no reason to be, and I'm sure people here will support your decision either way you go? (And I'm not being sarcastic.)

Wouldn't it be funny if a trans was restricted for transphobia? :laugh:


NKVD--- what do you think about Furries?

Or the Cat Person?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1Dcdml5DUgUXZAUu-ErcBznw5thou6wO6Vql4NsEtiNRW_jsCVA

Don't tell me they are cats in humans bodies. Just don't. :thumbdown:

[NKVD]

Mind your own buisness buddy, something a consenting adult do to its body is none of your buisness :D

So you support legalizing attempted suicide and/or attempted suicide?

[Magón]

Wouldn't it be funny if a trans was restricted for transphobia? :laugh::

Hey, it could happen? Like all those church leaders who speak out against homosexuality, yet the next week they're found in some slummy hotel room with their male lover.


So you support legalizing attempted suicide and/or attempted suicide?

It's because of people like you, that suicide is even an issue with gays and transgender people. Calling them mentally ill or whatever doesn't quite make them feel good. Whether you worded that wrong, I don't care, it's what you said and I'm holding you to it for as long as I have to.

[Kotze]

You should have to verify your age somehow to post here.I wish we were a bit more sensitive about that kind of joke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism) here. :closedeyes:
I also think the question isn't whether you would date a Transsexual but whether a transsexual would ever want to even come near a dumb fuck face like yourself.It's reassuring to know that when I'm not around there will always be others working hard to win people over through the power of good arguments.

Back to the original topic:
Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.Yeah, well it's complicated. That gay people get treated as being basically heterosexuals in the wrong body is really uncommon in the western world nowadays, but that can happen to you in Iran. And it's also entirely possible that if you enjoy a bit of crossing gender-boundaries, that your "open-minded, understanding, supportive" friends push you towards a sex change (Dan Bunten/Danielle Berry (http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm)). In the USA today it is as far as I know quite typical for people who believe they are born with the wrong sex to delay bottom surgery while taking hormones and dressing regularly for months as the other gender. So they usually have a good idea what they are getting into when they decide whether to have a full change.

[gorillafuck]

Look I think we are forgetting something....Most men find the idea of a knife anywhere near they genitals a tad disturbing to say the least...Hence NKVD's reaction to this topic. Of course the oh-so we hate moralizing crowd have to turn it into some hysterical drama rather than calmly reflect over the issue...Nah, y'll hate moralizing. :rolleyes:
A couple people accused you of that and so all of a sudden there's some big anti-morality crowd?

By the way, the person who you've been agreeing with and consistently taken the side of and defended the whole time they've been on revleft has been reading off of a page on encyclopedia dramatica on how to troll revleft.

[Palingenisis]

yeah he should have been restricted at least yesterday when he said people who do not want to be in monogamous relationship should be encouraged to commit suicide.

No he did not...Stop being a drama king.

[#FF0000]

So you support legalizing attempted suicide and/or attempted suicide?

lol that isn't illegal stupid and even so it shouldn't be illegal anyway.

[Palingenisis]

A couple people accused you of that and so all of a sudden there's some big anti-morality crowd?


I was pointing out the hypocracy of others who had accused NKVD of moralizing on another thread and than endulged in moral outrage over what he has said here.

As for trolling...Well maybe after having asked the question he should have just let the issue drop.

[gorillafuck]

I was pointing out the hypocracy of others who had accused NKVD of moralizing on another thread and than endulged in moral outrage over what he has said here.
People were opposing using personal morality to restrict what people can do with their own bodies, not morality in general. But even then, that wasn't many people. You act as if there's some huge anti-morality group out to pounce on you and NKVD.


As for trolling...Well maybe after having asked the question he should have just let the issue drop.No, that's not what I meant. The whole time he's been posting he's been using this: http://www.revleft.com/vb/trolling-revleft-t145136/index.html

[Manic Impressive]

No he did not...Stop being a drama king.
Yes he did and stop being a Stalinist mother hen protecting your babies

:D

[ComradeMan]

lol that isn't illegal stupid and even so it shouldn't be illegal anyway.


Even more stupid is that when it was illegal in many places it was punishable by...... death.

[Palingenisis]

Yes he did and stop being a Stalinist mother hen protecting your babies



Oi!....WE ARE THE PEOPLE!

He really didnt. And Im not being a Stalinist mother hen. There was good, productive but maybe heated discussion going on and it got messed up by "comradewolfie" being an insulting chauvinst prick and to a lesser extent witerstand defending his fantasies of global communist orgies. NKVD may have come across the arch-severe GothonicStalinoid in response...May have...But thats hardly a gulagable offense.

[Widerstand]

to a lesser extent witerstand defending his fantasies of global communist orgies.

Hey you "I know how you should live better than you" control freak, I am saying that if people want to monogamous, they should be, and if people want to have casual sex, they should have that.

You are saying that your cultural visions and morality are superior to all others (we've heard that one before, haven't we?) and that somehow you are the single person on earth who has the right to say how everyone should live.

Get a fucking grip you stupid misanthrope.

[Palingenisis]

You are saying that your cultural visions and morality are superior to all others (we've heard that one before, haven't we?) and that somehow you are the single person on earth who has the right to say how everyone should live..

You certainly believe that your morality and cultural visions are superior to all others and those of your little affinity group but they dont seem to bring you much contentment do they? So that would suggest it might be better to go back to the drawing board...:)

[Widerstand]

You certainly believe that your morality and cultural visions are superior to all others and those of your little affinity group but they dont seem to bring you much contentment do they? So that would suggest it might be better to go back to the drawing board...:)

Yes, I believe that an egalitarian society where people aren't bullied into suicide is preferable to one where a single person dictates what lifestyle everyone should have.

If you don't I don't quite get what you are doing on a pro-communist platform.

[gorillafuck]

He really didnt.
And then.....

to a lesser extent witerstand defending his fantasies of global communist orgies.Do you not see the irony?


If you don't I don't quite get what you are doing on a pro-communist platform.
Just because she's saying stupid things doesn't make it anti-socialist.

[Palingenisis]

If you don't I don't quite get what you are doing on a pro-communist platform.

Uh...My views would fit in perfectly in general with the Socialist societies that have been attempted in the last century. And also with the vast majiority of those who call themselves across the world....So what exactly are you getting at?

:confused:

[Magón]

Uh...My views would fit in perfectly in general with the Socialist societies that have been attempted in the last century. And also with the vast majiority of those who call themselves across the world....So what exactly are you getting at?

:confused:

Even the Sandinista's in Nicaragua?

[Palingenisis]

The more I think about the more I believe that this was a troll thread in "revenge" for yesterday by NKVD. You all seemded pretty eager to get played though...:laugh:

However it was in bad taste. Surely time to let the thread die?

[Manic Impressive]

funny how those same people all sang the line

"no more traditions chains shall bind us"

[Palingenisis]

Even the Sandinista's in Nicaragua?

I dont believe that they were "sexual libertarians".

[Palingenisis]

"no more traditions chains shall bind us"

However crap me and NKVD may have been at arguing last night we werent arguing from the Bible or something...We were trying to argue from reason and experiance.

[Magón]

I dont believe that they were "sexual libertarians".

I think you might want to look again.

[Palingenisis]

Even the Sandinista's in Nicaragua?

Wait a minute the Sandinistas were not an attempt at a Socialist society...Yes they were progressive and social democratic but they werent socialist as such, or at least the actual goverment they set up wasnt once it got into power even if Socialists may well existed among their base.

[Manic Impressive]

I always suspected that there was a Stalinist bible that you only got to read once you reached level 5 in Stalinism

[NKVD]

I always suspected that there was a Stalinist bible that you only got to read once you reached level 5 in Stalinism

Yes!!!

[#FF0000]

The more I think about the more I believe that this was a troll thread in "revenge" for yesterday by NKVD. You all seemded pretty eager to get played though...:laugh:

However it was in bad taste. Surely time to let the thread die?

I'm sort of stunned that you think that NKVD's trolling at the expense of a disadvantaged group is anywhere close to acceptable.

[Magón]

Wait a minute the Sandinistas were not an attempt at a Socialist society...Yes they were progressive and social democratic but they werent socialist as such, or at least the actual goverment they set up wasnt once it got into power even if Socialists may well existed among their base.

Uh, I believe you've got yourself mixed up. The Sandinistas were trying to create a socialist society. They had Marxist tendency's just like Fidel and Che did in Cuba. Though granted they were more on the farther left scale of Marxism. But still, they were shooting for a socialist land, and Communism in the end.

[Widerstand]

We were trying to argue from reason and experiance.

The only reason you have given is that it "destabilizes society", which I have challenged in the other thread. You however preferred to not respond to it and instead hide behind blanket attacks on my supposedly "bourgeois liberalism."

Your experience, I don't know about that, since you don't talk about it. I'm talking about relationships between fully consenting partners where each party knows they are engaging in a polygamous, polyamorous relationship or casual sex. I've you've had bad experiences with relationships of these kind, I'm willing to listen. If not, I'll have to assume you are just blaming bad personal experiences on totally legitimate movements. The polyamorous community itself is well aware that polyamory isn't easy and that there are many difficulties for a polyamorous person conditioned to engage in RBRs. Nonetheless, it emphasizes in respecting each other's needs and borders. The fact that there are people that capitalize on "free love" rhetoric and make dishonest promises to get laid doesn't discredit the concept of polyamory.

[Palingenisis]

I'm sort of stunned that you think that NKVD's trolling at the expense of a disadvantaged group is anywhere close to acceptable.

I said that it was in bad taste.

[Palingenisis]

Uh, I believe you've got yourself mixed up. The Sandinistas were trying to create a socialist society. They had Marxist tendency's just like Fidel and Che did in Cuba. Though granted they were more on the farther left scale of Marxism. But still, they were shooting for a socialist land, and Communism in the end.

I dont consider that Cuba was ever Socialist....Fidel was always a progressive social democratic nationalist who wrapped himself in the red flag to get protection from the USA (fair enough I suppose).

[NKVD]

People were opposing using personal morality to restrict what people can do with their own bodies, not morality in general. But even then, that wasn't many people. You act as if there's some huge anti-morality group out to pounce on you and NKVD.

No, that's not what I meant. The whole time he's been posting he's been using this: http://www.revleft.com/vb/trolling-revleft-t145136/index.html

Oh that's what you mean't by ED?


Post anything against trannies. The srs revolutionaries of revleft are so sensitive when it comes to trannies that if you don't want to fuck a tranny and aren't full of faggotry yourself, then they'll accuse you of being a religious fundie, Hitler, or both. Bonus points for posing as a feminazi and accusing trannies of being men conducting psyops against women's liberation.

:laugh: So I guess I forgot to say that you trannies are men conducting psyops against women's liberation. :laugh:

[9]

Or the Cat Person?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1Dcdml5DUgUXZAUu-ErcBznw5thou6wO6Vql4NsEtiNRW_jsCVA

Dude, I've seen this guy at Costco twice. I'm dead serious; he must live in Washington. Honestly thought I was tripping balls the first time.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

inb4 "He's not straight"
He is. He is very, very, very, very much a man (not to come off like miss swan from SNL) and he's attracted to women and not men.

Oh, he is like a dream... :tt1:

[gorillafuck]

Oh that's what you mean't by ED?
Lol, endless dreamers.

[Property Is Robbery]

I feel that sex-change operations are a symptom of a reactionary society in which people are forced to mutilate their bodies to have their bodies conform to their personality. Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad, and there is no such thing as transsexual. Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.

Thoughts?
I would say you don't know what you're talking about

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I would say you don't know what you're talking about
I wish I could give you a hug and say thanks!:) You Rock!

[Tomhet]

I feel that sex-change operations are a symptom of a reactionary society in which people are forced to mutilate their bodies to have their bodies conform to their personality. Thus, I think sex-change operations are bad, and there is no such thing as transsexual. Just cause a guy is homosexual and effeminate, for example, doesn't mean he is a woman in a guy's body.

Thoughts?
Reactionary and horrible attitude.. :rolleyes:
If you are in this situation which you really feel like the opposite gender, wouldn't you change it?
Without sex change operations, some people would have to live being something they loathe being, every single day..

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Reactionary and horrible attitude.. :rolleyes:
If you are in this situation which you really feel like the opposite gender, wouldn't you change it?
Without sex change operations, some people would have to live being something they loathe being, every single day..
Or as I pointed out, committing suicide like I had attempted.

[#FF0000]

I said that it was in bad taste.

Yeah but why is this any more acceptable than if he had been talking about an ethnic minority or homosexuals? He would have been banned if that was the case.

And, you know, if it was just ignorance, that'd be one thing. If his intention from the get-go was to troll then I think that's even worse.

[9]

Despite the fact that this is a troll thread, I remember reading some posts on here in the past by Marsella and (iirc) maldoror which made some points on this topic which I think were actually valid. Basically that there is a really blatant contradiction in the way that a lot of leftists will argue, on the one hand, that 'gender is entirely a social construct', and on the other hand, will defend exactly the opposite position when it comes to issues around transexuality, i.e. will defend the position that gender, basically, is hardwired in the brain.
Obviously gender can't be both a social construct and be hardwired in the brain. Obviously it can be one or the other, but it can't be both at the same time because they are polar opposites - they're mutually exclusive.

The reality, though, is that I know virtually nothing about transexuality or the scientific basis of it etc. and so it would be totally out of line for me, I think, to put forward any sort of argument on the subject because I'm not adequately informed and don't really want to talk out of my ass and unintentionally say something really offensive. I do think, however, that if it is accepted or has been demonstrated by science that transexuals are basically people with 'male brains' or 'female brains' who - as a result of their brain gender - fit lots of 'male stereotypes' or 'female stereotypes' but are born in 'the wrong body', that really the only honest and consistent thing to do is dispose of the entire idea that gender is a social construct, because obviously that can't be the case if there are such things as 'male brains' and 'female brains' and they correspond to 'male stereotypes' and 'female stereotypes'.

[Revolution starts with U]

Don't you guys get it, all (so-called) weird sexualities (except all the weird shit "normal" people get into) are gay. If we let gays be gay, there would never be any trans, or pedophiles, or even gays!!!

[gorillafuck]

9: I don't think it is inconsistent, because gender is a social construct, but it is still hardwired into society and peoples frames of mind. Therefore it can be both very relevant to peoples psychology and societal pressures as well as also be a social construct.

[9]

Originally Posted by Zeekloid
gender is a social construct, but it is still hardwired into society and peoples frames of mindWell, yeah. But then you're saying it isn't really 'male brains' and 'female brains' and people 'born in the wrong body', but rather, the product of social conditioning. Which hasn't exactly been a popular position so far in this thread from what I can gather.

[#FF0000]

9: I don't think it is inconsistent, because gender is a social construct, but it is still hardwired into society and peoples frames of mind. Therefore it can be both very relevant to peoples psychology and societal pressures as well as also be a social construct.

Yeah but then if you have a "genderless" society then that means you'll have a society where no one would ever want to change their sex, right?

[gorillafuck]

Well, yeah. But then you're saying it isn't really 'male brains' and 'female brains' and people 'born in the wrong body', but social conditioning. Which hasn't exactly been a popular position so far in this thread from what I can gather.
I don't know a lot about psychology (I wish I did) but I'm doubtful of the idea that all differences between men and women are due to society. I think it's more likely that they're just pushed to extremes and heavily enforced.

But still, the point you bring up is actually really interesting, I didn't think of that. I dunno the answer.

[Tablo]

I don't align myself with any particular gender identity. So I don't think it is necessarily hardwired. Like most things there is probably some genetic influence and some influence from outside factors.

[NKVD]

The whole reason I brought up the issue in the first place is that I view gender as a social construct so I found it hard to group people into female brains in male bodies or vice versa.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Despite the fact that this is a troll thread, I remember reading some posts on here in the past by Marsella and (iirc) maldoror which made some points on this topic which I think were actually valid. Basically that there is a really blatant contradiction in the way that a lot of leftists will argue, on the one hand, that 'gender is entirely a social construct', and on the other hand, will defend exactly the opposite position when it comes to issues around transexuality, i.e. will defend the position that gender, basically, is hardwired in the brain.
Obviously gender can't be both a social construct and be hardwired in the brain. Obviously it can be one or the other, but it can't be both at the same time because they are polar opposites - they're mutually exclusive.

The reality, though, is that I know virtually nothing about transexuality or the scientific basis of it etc. and so it would be totally out of line for me, I think, to put forward any sort of argument on the subject because I'm not adequately informed and don't really want to talk out of my ass and unintentionally say something really offensive. I do think, however, that if it is accepted or has been demonstrated by science that transexuals are basically people with 'male brains' or 'female brains' who - as a result of their brain gender - fit lots of 'male stereotypes' or 'female stereotypes' but are born in 'the wrong body', that really the only honest and consistent thing to do is dispose of the entire idea that gender is a social construct, because obviously that can't be the case if there are such things as 'male brains' and 'female brains' and they correspond to 'male stereotypes' and 'female stereotypes'.
I don't consider gender a social construct, so don't try to pin that on me, but I don't think you are totally out of line just not fully aware of all the facts about GID specifically. Though I'd like to point out that gender is not just male and female boxes. It is a spectrum with some fluidity. However, I am less of a challenge to the gender binary concept of male and female since I fit the female box and with most stereotypes of a girly gurl. But my ex gf on the other hand was closer to the middle. She is MtF but didn't fit quite a few of those stereotypes. She is more of the androgynous point. If being on that point of the spectrum makes her happy, I'm happy for her. I have friends all over the gender spectrum and what ever makes them happy is okay with me. Personally I like being the girly girl that I am.

[#FF0000]

The whole reason I brought up the issue in the first place is that I view gender as a social construct so I found it hard to group people into female brains in male bodies or vice versa.

You definitely could have done it in a way more constructive way.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I don't know a lot about psychology (I wish I did) but I'm doubtful of the idea that all differences between men and women are due to society. I think it's more likely that they're just pushed to extremes and heavily enforced.

But still, the point you bring up is actually really interesting, I didn't think of that. I dunno the answer.

While traditionally men have been thought to be capable of transcending the level of the biological through the use of their rational faculties, women have tended to be defined entirely it terms of their physical capacities for reproduction and motherhood. In an effort to avoid this conflation of the social category of woman with biological functions (essentialism), earlier forms of feminism developed a theory of social construction based on the distinction between sex and gender. The sex/gender distinction represents an attempt by feminists to sever the connection between the biological category of sex and the social category of gender. According to this view of social construction, gender is the cultural meaning that comes to be contingently attached to the sexed body. Once gender is understood as culturally constructed it is possible to avoid the essentialist idea that gender derives from the natural body in any one way. However, while the distinction between ahistorical biological sexes and culturally constructed gender roles challenges the notion that a woman’s biological makeup is her social destiny, it entails a problematic dissociation of culturally constructed genders from sexed bodies. The effect of this dissociation is that the sexed body comes to be seen as irrelevant to an individual’s gendered cultural identity. It is this disconcerting consequence of drawing a distinction between sex and gender that has led some feminists to appropriate Foucault’s theory of the body and sexuality. In the first volume of The History of Sexuality, Foucault develops an anti-essentialist account of the sexual body, which, however, doesn’t deny its materiality. At the heart of Foucault’s history of sexuality is an analysis of the production of the category of sex and its function in regimes of power aimed at controlling the sexual body. Foucault argues that the construct of a supposedly ‘natural’ sex functions to disguise the productive operation of power in relation to sexuality: ‘The notion of sex brought about a fundamental reversal; it made it possible to invert the representation of the relationships of power to sexuality, causing the latter to appear, not in its essential and positive relation to power, but as being rooted in a specific and irreducible urgency which power tries as best it can to dominate’ (Foucault 1978: 155). Foucault’s claim here is that the relationship between power and sexuality is misrepresented when sexuality is viewed as an unruly natural force that power simply opposes, represses or constrains. Rather, the phenomenon of sexuality should be understood as constructed through the exercise of power relations. Drawing on Foucault’s account of the historical construction of sexuality and the part played by the category of sex in this construction, feminists have been able to rethink gender, not as the cultural meanings that are attached to a pregiven sex, but, in Judith Butler’s formulation, ‘as the … cultural means by which “sexed nature” or “a natural sex” is produced and established as…prior to culture’ (Butler 1990: 7). Following Foucault, Butler argues that the notion of a ‘natural’ sex that is prior to culture and socialization is implicated in the production and maintenance of gendered power relations because it naturalizes the regulatory idea of a supposedly natural heterosexuality and, thus, reinforces the reproductive constraints on sexuality. In addition to his anti-essentialist view of the body and sexuality, Foucault insists on the corporeal reality of bodies. He argues that this rich and complex reality is oversimplified by the biological category of sex which groups together in an ‘artificial unity’ a range of disparate and unrelated biological functions and bodily pleasures. Thus, in The History of Sexuality, Foucault explains that: ‘The purpose of the present study is in fact to show how deployments of power are directly connected to the body – to bodies, functions, physiological processes, sensations, and pleasures; far from the body having to be effaced, what is needed is to make it visible through an analysis in which the biological and the historical are not consecutive to one another … but are bound together in an increasingly complex fashion in accordance with the development of the modern technologies of power that take life as their objective. Hence I do not envisage a “history of mentalities” that would take account of bodies only through the manner in which they have been perceived and given meaning and value; but a “history of bodies” and the manner in which what is most material and most vital in them has been invested’ (Foucault 1978: 151-2).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/foucfem/

Sexuality must not be thought of as a kind of natural given which
power tries to hold in check, or as an obscure domain which knowledge
tries gradually to uncover. It is the name that can be given to a
historical construct: not a furtive reality that is difficult to
grasp, but a great surface network in which the stimulation of bodies,
the intensification of pleasures, the incitement to discourse, the
formation of special knowledges, the strengthening of controls and
resistances, are linked to one another, in accordance with a few major
strategies of knowledge and power. [p. 106]

Even if deep down in the human organism there is some need for food,
warmth, love and sexual intercourse, psychoanalysis notwithstanding,
it has been amply demonstrated that such ‘essential’ drives and needs
are buried so deep beneath elastic and socially constructed
interpretations, that the constructivist hypothesis is by far the more
relevant as opposed to the essentialist, at least for the purposes of
understanding modern society. Human beings are their own product; our
essence is nothing but the need to negate and produce our own being;
humanity is essentially non-essential.

If a person’s needs do not originate in an individual’s ‘inner
nature’, but are socially constructed, the same is even more true of
cognition, the activity of understanding the world, which is shaped by
socially available discourse and objectified in books, artifacts,
languages, institutions, etc., etc.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg07277.html

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The whole reason I brought up the issue in the first place is that I view gender as a social construct so I found it hard to group people into female brains in male bodies or vice versa.
My existence is not a social construct. I've known I was a girl inside all my entire fucking life. The fact that I've always hated the male body I was born into (though I don't know for sure if I was born entirely male bodied in the first place. Having never had an adams apple, a female g spot, ominous scar tissue "down south" the quick visible effects of the estrogen in under a month, generally feminine physical features and more stuff I don't feel like going into is reason to question whether I was possibly born some variation of intersexed, but I don't know for sure either way.) shows that no societal pressures or social constructs caused me to identify and end up living as a young woman.

And if you really were going by the line of the social construct argument, you wouldn't use gendered pronouns. It would be all Ze/Hir/Hir's

[Che a chara]

Just to point out that sex change in Iran is legal and I believe that even the government pays for the operations. So under such conservative and reactionary religious beliefs, how is it possible that the whole idea of a person wanting a sex change is a social construct ?

[∞]

I honestly think its best to make sure that you want to stay your gender-essence.

Whatever, if you want to be another gender, no skin off my bone :). Although I find it hard to be attracted to trans people sorry.

[NKVD]

And if you really were going by the line of the social construct argument, you wouldn't use gendered pronouns. It would be all Ze/Hir/Hir's

Seriously? Why can't we just use he/she to imply biological sex?

[∞]

Its a troll post

Encyclopedia Dramatica on trolling Revleft



Post anything against trannies. The srs revolutionaries of revleft are so sensitive when it comes to trannies that if you don't want to fuck a tranny and aren't full of faggotry yourself, then they'll accuse you of being a religious fundie, Hitler, or both. Bonus points for posing as a feminazi and accusing trannies of being men conducting psyops against women's liberation.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Seriously? Why can't we just use he/she to imply biological sex?
Because that paints biological sex as being one or the other which is scientifically not true. There are many variations of intersex as well.

It can be argued that biological sex, as with gender, is a spectrum with varying shades.

That is based off scientific fact. Yes, scientific fact. Of course, I don't even need to look at that fact to see that picture, when I look into my heart I see it just as well. But maybe you should look into intersex conditions before you try and falsely make biological sex a matter of male or female and just that. It is a spectrum.

[9]

Originally Posted by Tsukae
Like most things there is probably some genetic influence and some influence from outside factors. Actually, I guess you are probably right.



Originally Posted by Esperanza Xochitl
don't try to pin that on meOh, I wasn't at all; it's just a general trend, not something I was accusing individuals of.



Originally Posted by Best Mod


Originally Posted by NKVD
The whole reason I brought up the issue in the first place is that I view gender as a social construct so I found it hard to group people into female brains in male bodies or vice versa. You definitely could have done it in a way more constructive way.
Is it really possible to troll in a constructive way, tho?



Originally Posted by Apoi Viitor as BobbyKindles
While traditionally men have been thought to be capable of transcending the level of the biological through the use of their rational faculties, women have tended to be defined entirely it terms of their physical capacities for reproduction and motherhood. In an effort to avoid this conflation of the social category of woman with biological functions (essentialism), earlier forms of feminism developed a theory of social construction based on the distinction between sex and gender. The sex/gender distinction represents an attempt by feminists to sever the connection between the biological category of sex and the social category of gender. According to this view of social construction, gender is the cultural meaning that comes to be contingently attached to the sexed body. Once gender is understood as culturally constructed it is possible to avoid the essentialist idea that gender derives from the natural body in any one way. However, while the distinction between ahistorical biological sexes and culturally constructed gender roles challenges the notion that a woman’s biological makeup is her social destiny, it entails a problematic dissociation of culturally constructed genders from sexed bodies. The effect of this dissociation is that the sexed body comes to be seen as irrelevant to an individual’s gendered cultural identity. It is this disconcerting consequence of drawing a distinction between sex and gender that has led some feminists to appropriate Foucault’s theory of the body and sexuality. In the first volume of The History of Sexuality, Foucault develops an anti-essentialist account of the sexual body, which, however, doesn’t deny its materiality. At the heart of Foucault’s history of sexuality is an analysis of the production of the category of sex and its function in regimes of power aimed at controlling the sexual body. Foucault argues that the construct of a supposedly ‘natural’ sex functions to disguise the productive operation of power in relation to sexuality: ‘The notion of sex brought about a fundamental reversal; it made it possible to invert the representation of the relationships of power to sexuality, causing the latter to appear, not in its essential and positive relation to power, but as being rooted in a specific and irreducible urgency which power tries as best it can to dominate’ (Foucault 1978: 155). Foucault’s claim here is that the relationship between power and sexuality is misrepresented when sexuality is viewed as an unruly natural force that power simply opposes, represses or constrains. Rather, the phenomenon of sexuality should be understood as constructed through the exercise of power relations. Drawing on Foucault’s account of the historical construction of sexuality and the part played by the category of sex in this construction, feminists have been able to rethink gender, not as the cultural meanings that are attached to a pregiven sex, but, in Judith Butler’s formulation, ‘as the … cultural means by which “sexed nature” or “a natural sex” is produced and established as…prior to culture’ (Butler 1990: 7). Following Foucault, Butler argues that the notion of a ‘natural’ sex that is prior to culture and socialization is implicated in the production and maintenance of gendered power relations because it naturalizes the regulatory idea of a supposedly natural heterosexuality and, thus, reinforces the reproductive constraints on sexuality. In addition to his anti-essentialist view of the body and sexuality, Foucault insists on the corporeal reality of bodies. He argues that this rich and complex reality is oversimplified by the biological category of sex which groups together in an ‘artificial unity’ a range of disparate and unrelated biological functions and bodily pleasures. Thus, in The History of Sexuality, Foucault explains that: ‘The purpose of the present study is in fact to show how deployments of power are directly connected to the body – to bodies, functions, physiological processes, sensations, and pleasures; far from the body having to be effaced, what is needed is to make it visible through an analysis in which the biological and the historical are not consecutive to one another … but are bound together in an increasingly complex fashion in accordance with the development of the modern technologies of power that take life as their objective. Hence I do not envisage a “history of mentalities” that would take account of bodies only through the manner in which they have been perceived and given meaning and value; but a “history of bodies” and the manner in which what is most material and most vital in them has been invested’ (Foucault 1978: 151-2).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/foucfem/

Sexuality must not be thought of as a kind of natural given which
power tries to hold in check, or as an obscure domain which knowledge
tries gradually to uncover. It is the name that can be given to a
historical construct: not a furtive reality that is difficult to
grasp, but a great surface network in which the stimulation of bodies,
the intensification of pleasures, the incitement to discourse, the
formation of special knowledges, the strengthening of controls and
resistances, are linked to one another, in accordance with a few major
strategies of knowledge and power. [p. 106]

Even if deep down in the human organism there is some need for food,
warmth, love and sexual intercourse, psychoanalysis notwithstanding,
it has been amply demonstrated that such ‘essential’ drives and needs
are buried so deep beneath elastic and socially constructed
interpretations, that the constructivist hypothesis is by far the more
relevant as opposed to the essentialist, at least for the purposes of
understanding modern society. Human beings are their own product; our
essence is nothing but the need to negate and produce our own being;
humanity is essentially non-essential.

If a person’s needs do not originate in an individual’s ‘inner
nature’, but are socially constructed, the same is even more true of
cognition, the activity of understanding the world, which is shaped by
socially available discourse and objectified in books, artifacts,
languages, institutions, etc., etc.

http://www.mail-archive.com/marxism-.../msg07277.htmltl;dr

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Oh, I wasn't at all; it's just a general trend, not something I was accusing individuals of.

I didn't think you were. Moreover, I was just making sure in clarification. But thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Nolan]

I really, really think we should just ban this topic from discussion or something. It doesn't end well and is a godsend for any troll that happens to drop by.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Red America, I see your point and to some extent agree. But on the other hand, I still feel that we shouldn't throw trans+ issues out the window over some trolls. So Idk whether thats a good idea.

[NKVD]

Because that paints biological sex as being one or the other which is scientifically not true. There are many variations of intersex as well.

It can be argued that biological sex, as with gender, is a spectrum with varying shades.

That is based off scientific fact. Yes, scientific fact. Of course, I don't even need to look at that fact to see that picture, when I look into my heart I see it just as well. But maybe you should look into intersex conditions before you try and falsely make biological sex a matter of male or female and just that. It is a spectrum.

The vast majority of people can be put in to one or the other biological sex. Are there people in between? Certainly. But to say that we can't use our existing adjectives just cause there are some intersex people is insane.

[Agapi]

Despite the fact that this is a troll thread, I remember reading some posts on here in the past by Marsella and (iirc) maldoror which made some points on this topic which I think were actually valid. Basically that there is a really blatant contradiction in the way that a lot of leftists will argue, on the one hand, that 'gender is entirely a social construct', and on the other hand, will defend exactly the opposite position when it comes to issues around transexuality, i.e. will defend the position that gender, basically, is hardwired in the brain.

Gender (this being choice of attire, acceptable hobbies or professions, speech, etc) is entirely a social construct. Sex (this being physical distinctions in the body, like breasts, fat distribution, facial shape, and so on) is not. Being trans is only a gender issue because cispeople have made it that; at its core, it's about bodies.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The vast majority of people can be put in to one or the other biological sex. Are there people in between? Certainly. But to say that we can't use our existing adjectives just cause there are some intersex people is insane.
So you are fine with writing intersexed people off just like that? Lets take your logic to the extent that it leads, that if a group isn't in the vast majority, they only deserve invisibility at best. Have fun on stormfront ese. You don't belong on anything but the reactionary bigoted bullshit you spew, not here.
Ciao!

[ComradeMan]

So you are fine with writing intersexed people off just like that? Lets take your logic to the extent that it leads, that if a group isn't in the vast majority, they only deserve invisibility at best. Have fun on stormfront ese. You don't belong on anything but the reactionary bigoted bullshit you spew, not here.
Ciao!

Cool it.....!!!

The best way to educate someone is not to attack them by calling them this, that and the other.

He's hardly Dr Kinsey is he?

What he is saying is the stuff that used to be said in the mainstream and was classed as "science"- unfortunately transness was considered to be a psychological disorder- by science.

Early communist writings were also not fond of non-hetero, "normal" people- and there was a bit of a battle to get this recognised as wrong. It's not the first time I have heard homophobic and transphobic sentiments on the left-

Having said that,

NKVD!!! I suggest you read some updated literature on the subject, from at least the 90s onwards and I don't mean the 1890s!!!

[IronEastBloc]

So you are fine with writing intersexed people off just like that? Lets take your logic to the extent that it leads, that if a group isn't in the vast majority, they only deserve invisibility at best. Have fun on stormfront ese. You don't belong on anything but the reactionary bigoted bullshit you spew, not here.
Ciao!

but there are so few intersexed people...isnt that the tail wagging the dog? :confused:

[Jalapeno Enema]

but there are so few intersexed people...isnt that the tail wagging the dog? :confused:Just because something is in the majority does not make it right.

Just because there are so few of somebody doesn't mean they don't matter or shouldn't be accounted for.

Let's say I'm buying lunch for 10 people. 6 eat meat, 3 are vegan, and one is lactose intolerant. Would I throw the latter in with the first group where a bit of cheese would make them sick? In the latter where they're safe from dairy, but haven't the option for meat? No, I'd get them a burger sans cheese.

It's not always possible to provide complete accommodation for a particularly small minority, but that doesn't excuse the majority from trying.

[Rottenfruit]

Every instance I've seen of people being uncomfortable with their bodies has been due to societal judgements. I feel that society is to blame here, not genetics. And I don't see how that can be considered reactionary.
That complete horseshit, im a recovering anorexic and people with ocd and other mental disorders(such as me) are more prone to get body dismorphic disorders such as anorexia then people who do not suffer from them,

There have been studies that show that ocd is in indeed a hereditary mental disease

[Agapi]

Every instance I've seen of people being uncomfortable with their bodies has been due to societal judgements. I feel that society is to blame here, not genetics. And I don't see how that can be considered reactionary.

How, pray tell, do you suppose society has pressured me into wanting to be a woman?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Cool it.....!!!

The best way to educate someone is not to attack them by calling them this, that and the other.

He's hardly Dr Kinsey is he?

What he is saying is the stuff that used to be said in the mainstream and was classed as "science"- unfortunately transness was considered to be a psychological disorder- by science.

Early communist writings were also not fond of non-hetero, "normal" people- and there was a bit of a battle to get this recognised as wrong. It's not the first time I have heard homophobic and transphobic sentiments on the left-

Having said that,

NKVD!!! I suggest you read some updated literature on the subject, from at least the 90s onwards and I don't mean the 1890s!!!
I was referring to his statements about intersexed people and his idea of discounting minorities on the basis that they don't fit the vast majority. That is pretty fucking bigoted (and totally not pretty)

[ComradeMan]

I was referring to his statements about intersexed people and his idea of discounting minorities on the basis that they don't fit the vast majority. That is pretty fucking bigoted (and totally not pretty)

I agree... but I think this is a case of someone who is perhaps ignorant (innocently) or very badly informed as opposed to a genuine hater.

Do you get me?

[Magón]

I agree... but I think this is a case of someone who is perhaps ignorant (innocently) or very badly informed as opposed to a genuine hater.

Do you get me?

His comments have gone beyond ignorance in my opinion.

[NKVD]

I was referring to his statements about intersexed people and his idea of discounting minorities on the basis that they don't fit the vast majority. That is pretty fucking bigoted (and totally not pretty)

Stop insulting me by forcing me into a gender role.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Stop insulting me by forcing me into a gender role.
You've made plenty of statements revealing that you identify as male with in this thread.

[NKVD]

You've made plenty of statements revealing that you identify as male with in this thread.

I identify as biologically male. I don't identify with the male gender role. You said that he/she/him/her shouldn't be used for biological sex. So stop being a fucking hypocrite.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Hello this is Kuppo.

I identify as biologically male. I don't identify with the male gender role. You said that he/she/him/her shouldn't be used for biological sex. So stop being a fucking hypocrite.
You are so goddamn clever, haha you just pwned these fukers amirite.

ugh

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I identify as biologically male. I don't identify with the male gender role. You said that he/she/him/her shouldn't be used for biological sex. So stop being a fucking hypocrite.

I was pointing out the bigotry of dismissing a group of people based on the fact that they are not in the vast majority.

You believe pronouns should be based on biological sex, you have very much implied that in your statements.
You implied male identification with not being gay so "grossed out by the idea of having sex with a man"

[NKVD]

I was pointing out the bigotry of dismissing a group of people based on the fact that they are not in the vast majority.

You believe pronouns should be based on biological sex, you have very much implied that in your statements.
You implied male identification with not being gay so "grossed out by the idea of having sex with a man"

I didn't just imply that. I explicitly just stated that pronouns should be based on biological sex. And you were complaining abut me using he/she for biological sex, because you think they are terms for genders. Which was why I tok offense to you calling me by a term which according to you refers to gender. And I implied male biological identification you idiot.


And if you really were going by the line of the social construct argument, you wouldn't use gendered pronouns. It would be all Ze/Hir/Hir's

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I didn't just imply that. I explicitly just stated that pronouns should be based on biological sex. And you were complaining abut me using he/she for biological sex, because you think they are terms for genders. Which was why I tok offense to you calling me by a term which according to you refers to gender. And I implied male biological identification you idiot.


And if you really were going by the line of the social construct argument, you wouldn't use gendered pronouns. It would be all Ze/Hir/Hir's

That's based off the and if... I don't consider gender to be a social construct. Yeah, some aspects of gender maybe, but not gender per se. The binary concept that it's fixed by biological sex is.

I've had gender since the day I was born. Idiots who think and speak like you scared me into self-repression, idiots who think and speak like you pressured me into trying to kill myself.

[synthesis]

a trans woman is a woman

Can we just say that a trans-woman is a trans-woman? It seems like this denies the social aspect of "being transgendered." I could be completely wrong here, of course.

[NKVD]

That's based off the and if... I don't consider gender to be a social construct. Yeah, some aspects of gender maybe, but not gender per se. The binary concept that it's fixed by biological sex is.

I've had gender since the day I was born. Idiots who think and speak like you scared me into self-repression, idiots who think and speak like you pressured me into trying to kill myself.

And like I said I take offense to you placing me in a gender role. Don't do it again.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

And like I said I take offense to you placing me in a gender role. Don't do it again.
Okay, then what is your preferred pronoun?

[NKVD]

okay, then what is your preferred pronoun?

nkvd.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Can we just say that a trans-woman is a trans-woman? It seems like this denies the social aspect of "being transgendered." I could be completely wrong here, of course.
Some of us who are trans-women, consider ourselves just women. Some fully identify with the trans label. To me that is a foot note placed by society, but when it comes down to it I don't see myself as trans and most people around me realize I'm just a young woman and the rest is just a side note detail.

[synthesis]

Some of us who are trans-women, consider ourselves just women. Some fully identify with the trans label. To me that is a foot note placed by society, but when it comes down to it I don't see myself as trans and most people around me realize I'm just a young woman and the rest is just a side note detail.

I fully respect that you consider yourself as such, and I'm not seeking to "challenge your woman-hood," if that is in any way how it came across. But is "society's label" really that irrelevant to your identity? We are social creatures, after all.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

nkvd.
Okay, nkvd, why don't you show the same respect and stop denying the existence of an entire broad portion of the human population? And also maybe it wouldn't be a nice idea to dismiss another portion of the population on the basis that they are not in the majority. Homosexuals are also a minority should you also discard their existence and make room for the discrimination and oppression of them? Or how about racial and ethnic minorities?

But I will, in the future, refer to you by your preferred pronoun since that's what you wish and I'm truly sorry that I fucked that up.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I fully respect that you consider yourself as such, and I'm not seeking to "challenge your woman-hood," if that is in any way how it came across. But is "society's label" really that irrelevant to your identity? We are social creatures, after all.
No, I'm pretty recluse lately.

[synthesis]

You're still a social creature, just on the Internet, is all ;)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

You're still a social creature, just on the Internet, is all ;)
Well my situation is in recovery so I will be able to go out more soon.

[synthesis]

Well my situation is in recovery so I will be able to go out more soon.

Glad to hear it. (You recovering, I mean, not that you won't be posting as much.) All I was getting at is that we define ourselves socially, a great deal more so than we often recognize ourselves.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Glad to hear it. (You recovering, I mean, not that you won't be posting as much.) All I was getting at is that we define ourselves socially, a great deal more so than we often recognize ourselves.
If society defines us one way and we self identify differently, who's right should it be?