Israel biggest forest fire

[Havet]

This is a continuation from the closed thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/haha-israel-fire-t145988/index.html) with apparently a bad taste title. I am going to continue the discussion that was bruptly closed with ComradeMan, at his own personal request.


Fuck this for a thread--- haha a humanitarian disaster? WTF... get this post off of here- I would never celebrate a disaster that could harm ordinary people, usually the ones at the bottom of the heap too- in this case Palestinians/Arab-Israelis!!!

I am not celebrating, I simply find it funny. You know, amusing, but not in the sense of entertainment.


Did you celebrate the earthquake in L'Aquila because you hate Berlusconi? Did you celebrate the tsunami because Indonesia has a terrible human rights record?

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing Berlusconi or Indonesia could have done to prevent those natural disasters. But in this case, Israel could have been better prepared if it weren't so busy killing other people, spending 7% of its GDP to do so (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures).


Did you think well, Haiti is a corrupt brutal country with a puppet regime to it serves them right they have an earthquake.

Earthquakes are not preventable. It might be argued that its effects on the population are, but whether Haiti is corrupt or not, it would never have the resources to build anti-seismic infrastructures for everybody.

[Havet]

And the worse part is that the victims of these fires might be citizens of Israel which might not support the actions of their State, the excessive military spending, the conflict with Palestine, but become the victims in these collateral scenarios.

[ComradeMan]

This is a continuation from the closed thread with apparently a bad taste title. I am going to continue the discussion that was bruptly closed with ComradeMan, at his own personal request.

Fair enough- the title was really not good!



I am not celebrating, I simply find it funny. You know, amusing, but not in the sense of entertainment.

You have a strange sense of humour then, because I don't see much that is funny in this to be honest- "amusing" but not in the sense of entertainment, i.e. being "amused"? :confused:


As far as I am concerned, there is nothing Berlusconi or Indonesia could have done to prevent those natural disasters. But in this case, Israel could have been better prepared if it weren't so busy killing other people, spending 7% of its GDP to do so (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)..

Well, there was a lot of criticism at the time about the shoddy architecture of the student house for example, or the general poor level of standards applied in the construction in a well-known seismic zone for years. In Japan when a greater magnitude earthquake hit a larger area hardly anyone died- hmmm.... why was that?

Katrina's devastation could also have been reduced had the river delta flood barriers and dyke system been properly maintained by successive governments- although I don't know if it's state or federal level in the US.

The devastation of the tsunami was also partially due to the construction of resorts and tourist industry developments, i.e. commercialisation, in areas that indigenous peoples had long avoided for such risks and therefore you could also look at it being in part a manmade disaster- wasn't there also an issue around the warning system too?


Earthquakes are not preventable. It might be argued that its effects on the population are, but whether Haiti is corrupt or not, it would never have the resources to build anti-seismic infrastructures for everybody.

But being a corrupt, poverty stricken "third world" country doesn't help....

The point is that the "natural disaster" in question here won't really impact the people who you deem responsible for its being out of control anyway.

[Havet]

The point is that the "natural disaster" in question here won't really impact the people who you deem responsible for its being out of control anyway.

Most are israeli citizens are partially responsible for its huge military spending by indirectingly supporting them through taxes. There is also the problem that taxes are mandatory, but surely there are other parties that run against the current policies...?

[Bud Struggle]

Most are israeli citizens are partially responsible for its huge military spending by indirectingly supporting them through taxes. There is also the problem that taxes are mandatory, but surely there are other parties that run against the current policies...?

True there's a large amount of military spending--but almost all of the money comes from the United States. The Israelis get the arms for free.

(There is a "Visit Israel" ad playing at the top of the page. ;) )

[Dean]

Most are israeli citizens are partially responsible for its huge military spending by indirectingly supporting them through taxes. There is also the problem that taxes are mandatory, but surely there are other parties that run against the current policies...?
Please. Those that support the state do so due to propaganda. There are Arab Israeli citizens and citizens that identify as Palestinians. Being an Israeli citizen is absolutely not comparable to support for the racist regime, and rhetorical support is not comparable to blame for a system which already existed and specifically targets media with propaganda.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the intricacies of the very systems that you complain about. But this isn't really a hard issue - it is the difference between government policy and subjects of that government. They are opposites, if anything.

[Havet]

True there's a large amount of military spending--but almost all of the money comes from the United States. The Israelis get the arms for free.


Well that is definitely true (http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html). (i actually agree, im not being sarcastic)

[Havet]

Being an Israeli citizen is absolutely not comparable to support for the racist regime, and rhetorical support is not comparable to blame for a system which already existed and specifically targets media with propaganda.

Do you have some sort of source to show us just exctly how much propaganda there is there?

But like I said before, all citizens must still pay taxes right? In the previous post, the one Bud also talked about, we can all basically agree that much of these weapons are free. So the question is then, if the weapons they get (mostly) free of charge, and they still collect taxes, where is that money going rather than supporting some basic fire prevention infrastructures?

[ComradeMan]

Most are israeli citizens are partially responsible for its huge military spending by indirectingly supporting them through taxes. There is also the problem that taxes are mandatory, but surely there are other parties that run against the current policies...?

Are Arab-Israelis also repsonsible then?

Are all Americans responsible? Should we have cheered Katrina and scorned the victims of 9/11?

[Havet]

Are Arab-Israelis also repsonsible then?

Partially, yes


Are all Americans responsible?

Partially, yes


Should we have cheered Katrina and scorned the victims of 9/11?

No, and I don't follow the connection. Nobody is cheering for a burning Israel. I am merely expressing my amused contempt at those in power who appear to be less and less attached to the people who they supposedly represent

[ComradeMan]

No, and I don't follow the connection. Nobody is cheering for a burning Israel. I am merely expressing my amused contempt at those in power who appear to be less and less attached to the people who they supposedly represent

Well, perhaps people are still reeling from the shock of the original thread's title which is conditioning their responses to this one.

But perhaps rather than expressing amusement "in contempt" it would be more positive to focus on solidarity with the people who may be suffering for this and looking at answers afterwards.

[Havet]

Well, perhaps people are still reeling from the shock of the original thread's title which is conditioning their responses to this one.

But perhaps rather than expressing amusement "in contempt" it would be more positive to focus on solidarity with the people who may be suffering for this and looking at answers afterwards.

Sure, my main point was to let poeple know of Israel's inability to deal with this situation, and one proposed hypothesis was that they focused on war too much rather than protecting their people from real dangers.

[freepalestine]

This is a continuation from the closed thread with apparently a bad taste title. I am going to continue the discussion that was bruptly closed with ComradeMan, at his own personal request.

.
what is the thread that was shut down.

[Bud Struggle]

what is the thread that was shut down.

What is it, indeed?

[Widerstand]

what is the thread that was shut down.

It was sth like "Haha Israel is burning and they have no money left cos they spend it all on weapons."

OP seemed pretty happy about the fact that Israelis die.

[freepalestine]

It was sth like "Haha Israel is burning and they have no money left cos they spend it all on weapons."

OP seemed pretty happy about the fact that Israelis die.well there is another thread still up.
anyways the people who died in the coach werent civillians.they were part of the govt police/soldiers reservists.
the fact that settlers are committing arson to palestinian lands ,in westbank,and al quds,bethlehem today,gets sidelined.
apparently the area were the fire occured was a plantation of european forest,not accustomed to middle eastern weather.

[Havet]

what is the thread that was shut down.

I have edited the OP of this thread to include a link to the closed thread. You can check it out here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/haha-israel-fire-t145988/index.html).

[Havet]

OP seemed pretty happy about the fact that Israelis die.

One can laugh at a situation, yet not be happy with it.

I think it might be called satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire). It just might.

[Bud Struggle]

apparently the area were the fire occured was a plantation of european forest,not accustomed to middle eastern weather.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z2MVkuPx0yU/R8HT9mBR6QI/AAAAAAAAAN4/pOT_z0EIjng/s400/62951.gif

[freepalestine]

yeh,off topic
the olive trees of which some have been there for thousands of years or so.removed thanks to the iof.:crying:

[Widerstand]

One can laugh at a situation, yet not be happy with it.

I think it might be called satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire). It just might.

No actually I think you're just one of the "saves the bullets" crowd.

[Bud Struggle]

No actually I think you're just one of the "saves the bullets" crowd.

Look: fight the government of the country NOT the people of the country. You can't get any more Communist than that.

[Dimentio]

Nothing satirical about this. Forest fires are happening. Those who yet have died have mostly been poors and prisoners. It's the same in most natural disasters. The principle of class-based systems is that those most weak also should be the most exposed.

[Widerstand]

Look: fight the government of the country NOT the people of the country. You can't get any more Communist than that.

Forest fires fight governments?

Cool.

[Havet]

Those who yet have died have mostly been poors and prisoners.

And guards (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/03/world/la-fg-israel-fire-20101203)

They were going to save the prisioners, though.

[Havet]

Forest fires fight governments?

Cool.

Now you're just trolling. Nobody said forest fires fight governments. But they sure as hell show how the Israeli government fights against its own people.

[ComradeMan]

,not accustomed to middle eastern weather.

Can a forest be accustomed to weather?

Please... this stuff happens a lot in the Mediterranean, it's just a bit weird at this time of year and not in high summer.

[freepalestine]

Nothing satirical about this. Forest fires are happening. Those who yet have died have mostly been poors and prisoners. It's the same in most natural disasters. The principle of class-based systems is that those most weak also should be the most exposed.yeh i.m not pleased about these forest fires and how it is affecting the environment.its my country that its happening at.also the people who died were iof .

[Widerstand]

Now you're just trolling. Nobody said forest fires fight governments. But they sure as hell show how the Israeli government fights against its own people.

Well I didn't make the connection between people dying in a forest fire and "fighting the government."

[hatzel]

Well I didn't make the connection between people dying in a forest fire and "fighting the government."

I think he was backing you up. As in, "don't start saying it's a good thing if Israelis die, just because you don't like Israel as a state". Much like I'm not a huge fan of Iran, for example, but I'm not going to go around punching random Iranians here in London...

Back to the idea, though, I think that it's far too easy to criticise a nation if it is so decided that it will be criticised. I remember reading that the fire spread at about 30km/h. That's actually quite fast, when you think about it, and it is a pretty major fire, and I do think that even the most advanced firefighting crack team anywhere would struggle to contain it. A country of 5 million can hardly be expected to be able to assemble such a crack team, irrespective of what else they may spend their money on, through will or necessity...judging by the thousands of people successfully evacuated, I think we can agree it could have been a lot worse.

Anyway, it seems at the moment that it was the result of human negligence in the Druze village of Isfiya (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/police-have-a-good-idea-who-started-carmel-wildfire-1.328772). I don't personally expect charges to be brought against anybody, though, although two boys have been taken in for questioning. I assume it will be merely to confirm that it wasn't arson.

By the way, anybody with an interest in critical discourse analysis might want to tackle the 'yeh i.m not pleased about these forest fires and how it is affecting the environment.its my country that its happening at' above...

[Revolution starts with U]

Punching Random Iranians...
Idk, for some reason that sounds like a band name to me..

[empiredestoryer]

they should let that terrorist state BURN....it will be a truely great moment in human history when that cancer is removed from palestine

[ComradeMan]

they should let that terrorist state BURN....it will be a truely great moment in human history when that cancer is removed from palestine

So the next time there are fires in California I suppose you will be there to throw petrol on them too....

What a cazzone!

[Havet]

they should let that terrorist state BURN....it will be a truely great moment in human history when that cancer is removed from palestine

The problem is that the State itself isn't burning. Well, only some prison guards died that way, but most of the casualties were not state folk

[Magdalen]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/20/why-jnf-plants-israeli-forests

Here's a rather interesting letter which was published in The Guardian last month regarding the Jewish National Fund's forest-planting project in Israel. Much of what is now forest in Israel was planted over the remains of Palestinian villages in the period following 1948, ensuring that the return of Palestinian refugees was rendered impossible.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december042010/israel-fire-ga.php

This article gives particular attention to Ein Hod, an Israeli artists' commune which has been badly affected by the recent fires. Ein Hod was surrounded by forest plantings in part to conceal the existence of the nearby 'unrecognised' Palestinian village of Ayn Hawd, which had been founded by those expelled from Ein Hod, and surrounded by fences to ensure no expansion took place.

These seem to illustrate that the disaster which is facing Israel is at least in part one of its own making, a direct consequence of the Zionist attempt to obliterate any sign of the land's former, and remaining Palestinian inhabitants.

[ComradeMan]

These seem to illustrate that the disaster which is facing Israel is at least in part one of its own making, a direct consequence of the Zionist attempt to obliterate any sign of the land's former, and remaining Palestinian inhabitants.

Most of these natural disasters are man-made in many senses.

[Magdalen]

Most of these natural disasters are man-made in many senses.

I didn't say they weren't. However, I think it's worth noting that the origins the current disaster are especially pertinent to Israel's nature as a settler-colonial state, and to the oppression of the Palestinian people.

[freepalestine]

Most of these natural disasters are man-made in many senses.:)

athe plantations arent native to the mid east ,they are european trees(apparently).
the same weather is affecting lebanon also.
still,they may blame some arab for it

[Rottenfruit]

You are a sick person, theres nothing funny about people losing there homes and burning to death.

[ComradeMan]

I see some Arab names on the victims list, including the wardens.

[freepalestine]

I see some Arab names on the victims list, including the wardens.
they are members of the iof.

[freepalestine]

4 Arabs arrested


BEIT OREN (AFP) - Israeli police said Monday they arrested four teenagers suspected of starting a blaze that swept through a forest and killed 42 people in the country's worst fire disaster.

"We have made four arrests -- two teenagers from the ArabDruze village of Isfiya who were arrested on Saturday, and another two who were questioned on Sunday and released to house arrest," police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told AFP, without saying where the second two were from.

The four were suspected of negligence that sparked the wildfire, he said, adding that the two teenagers from Isfiya were scheduled to appear in court on Wednesday.

The fire in the Carmel hill range near the northern city of Haifa began on Thursday, killing 42 people before it was brought under control three days later after a massive international firefighting effort.

An initial investigation appears to show the blaze, the biggest in Israel's 62-year history, was started by accident by several teenagers who were having a picnic in the area, Rosenfeld said.

Light rain fell on Monday morning on the forests of Mount Carmel, dampening the ground, with meteorologists estimating there would be a total of 15 millimetres (0.6 inches) throughout the day.

The rain is some of the first the country has had this year, after a particularly dry summer and an unusually warm autumn. Last month saw the driest November in nearly 50 years.

Firefighters were still on the scene on Monday morning, working to ensure that the blaze, which consumed thousands of acres of forest, did not reignite.

Government officials cited by the Israeli media on Monday said the fire had caused damage estimated at two billion shekels ($533 million).

In addition to those costs, Israel now plans to buy several firefighting planes, after scathing domestic criticism at Israel's lack of an aerial firefighting capacity.

The country has just 1,500 firefighters and no firefighting planes, forcing it to rely on international assistance to put out the blaze.

The government has also announced plans to create a new body charged with overseeing the response to fires.

For the first time, the Israeli government has released emergency funding of 30 million euros to help residents who lost their homes in the fire.

"I don't want delays or bureaucracy. I want all the people who were evacuated to be able to return to their lives as soon as possible," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=339667

[Bud Struggle]

4 Arabs arrested


BEIT OREN (AFP) - Israeli police said Monday they arrested four teenagers suspected of starting a blaze that swept through a forest and killed 42 people in the country's worst fire disaster.

"We have made four arrests -- two teenagers from the ArabDruze village of Isfiya who were arrested on Saturday, and another two who were questioned on Sunday and released to house arrest," police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told AFP, without saying where the second two were from.

The four were suspected of negligence that sparked the wildfire, he said, adding that the two teenagers from Isfiya were scheduled to appear in court on Wednesday.

The fire in the Carmel hill range near the northern city of Haifa began on Thursday, killing 42 people before it was brought under control three days later after a massive international firefighting effort.

An initial investigation appears to show the blaze, the biggest in Israel's 62-year history, was started by accident by several teenagers who were having a picnic in the area, Rosenfeld said.

Light rain fell on Monday morning on the forests of Mount Carmel, dampening the ground, with meteorologists estimating there would be a total of 15 millimetres (0.6 inches) throughout the day.

The rain is some of the first the country has had this year, after a particularly dry summer and an unusually warm autumn. Last month saw the driest November in nearly 50 years.

Firefighters were still on the scene on Monday morning, working to ensure that the blaze, which consumed thousands of acres of forest, did not reignite.

Government officials cited by the Israeli media on Monday said the fire had caused damage estimated at two billion shekels ($533 million).

In addition to those costs, Israel now plans to buy several firefighting planes, after scathing domestic criticism at Israel's lack of an aerial firefighting capacity.

The country has just 1,500 firefighters and no firefighting planes, forcing it to rely on international assistance to put out the blaze.

The government has also announced plans to create a new body charged with overseeing the response to fires.

For the first time, the Israeli government has released emergency funding of 30 million euros to help residents who lost their homes in the fire.

"I don't want delays or bureaucracy. I want all the people who were evacuated to be able to return to their lives as soon as possible," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.

Write that yourself, did you?

:D

[Havet]

what

He thinks you invented that whole story because you didnt place any link with a source or reference

[Havet]

thats ok havet.its from ma'an website.

Can't you post a link? That would help your credibility a lot. And it would shut them up. As you can see by the two thanks I got, they're clearly too shy to say anything about it directly...

[ComradeMan]

Can't you post a link? That would help your credibility a lot. And it would shut them up. As you can see by the two thanks I got, they're clearly too shy to say anything about it directly...

Not too shy, just think of the bandwidth. I notice a certain member either posts one-liners or long pieces of copied and pasted text- the fact this was without references was odd, and that's what I thought Bud's comment was about.