What needs to happen so people can start giving a shit?

[R_P_A_S]

I don't know how people... specially in the US can not give a shit about these w i k i l e a k s...

What in the world will ever drive Americans to protest.. to take to the streets and demand answers and change from their "leaders". revolutionary/overhauling change! not the same BS in the polls.

Surprisingly enough they find time to get in line for sales and holiday bargains.

[RadioRaheem84]

And trample the shit out of each other for shit at the stores on black Friday! The problem is that we're overworked and distracted. I too get pissed off at my compatriots, I mean yeah I don't get just what the fuck it would take to get a fool to understand that he is being underpayed and overworked and that there is something he can do about it.

[R_P_A_S]

I mean.. I understand the problem. I think I do. I'm well aware of the decades of indoctrination that has create the society we live in now. (american dream Bullshit, consumerism and countless other *things*) that keeps us conform and distracted from what's really going on.

It's like the majority of the population in the US probably has more aspirations on being in debt and getting "that big loan" than to question why the hell are we supposed to keep borrowing money and live on credit.

[R_P_A_S]

When was the last time the American people took to the streets, fought and won?

I feel we aren't used to fighting. As some other regions in the world. They fight!

[Kuppo Shakur]

Just tell everybody that Capitalism takes away from their great deals on christmas gifts. /cynicalism

[La Comédie Noire]

I don't know, I just become so upset. I think we American comrades need to get together sometime and chew this out. I mean where even to begin?

Everyone at my work is complaining about how bad things are getting, but I don't dare suggest we organize, it just seems so far from the realm of possibility.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Ok, seriously, most Americans just don't recognize communism as an alternative. They realize that their situations are unsustainable and something in the governance of the US needs to change, but they are stuck thinking about tiny pointless reforms. It's just that the communism/bad association has been so ingrained into so many peoples minds, that they don't even see it as something to consider.

[R_P_A_S]

I'm not even talking about communism. come on now. I'm talking about just reform. communism? thats wishful thinking.

[RadioRaheem84]

Socialism is about as far away in people's minds as I am to Siberia.

And I hate that.

I hate it that all people think about is reform, and not even fighting for that reform, just hoping for a politician to enact that reform. They're even cynical about politicians but they just hope for a Messiah-like politician to deliver them from evil.

I really hate the situation in the US and see no hope for it.

First chance I get I am getting out of this country, I don't care if I get called a traitor to the cause here in the States, I just do not see this nation even coming close to the level of consciousness as the rest of the world.

[RedTrackWorker]

I don't think the problem is "people" "not giving a shit". Not at all.
It's that the leaders of the mass organizations are working overtime to stop any movement from happening and to contain any movement that breaks out.
Their success creates apathy and confusion and prevents the spread of revolutionary-ideas.
And their success is only possible thanks to a self-proclaimed revolutionary left that by-and-large covers for them in one way or another.
One can see this in the recent history of my union, which was demoralized by a failed 1980 strike and the general attacks on the labor movement in the 80's, so a growing movement in the 90's, which culminated in a qualified-victory over the old guard bureaucracy but which lead to the 2005 strike being stabbed in the back after 2 and a half days. And what's worse than such a betrayal? Not having an understanding of why the betrayal happened. Outside of the League, no other active left group in the union was explaining what happened--since the other active left groups had supported the new-president and helped mislead the workers into thinking that his election was enough (oversimplified but still...).
Given that so many had fought so hard to get the union to the point were it could and did strike, but it went wrong and there was confusion as to why, and those that many looked to for leadership were part of the problem, confusion and demoralization result.
So I think the key link in the chain here--the final line of defense for the continued rule of a tiny group of capitalists--is the "far left" such as it exists today.

[Widerstand]

You'll find that most people don't give a shit with what their state and bourgeoisie does because they are too troubled with living their live.

[Amphictyonis]

What in the world will ever drive Americans to protest.. to take to the streets and demand answers and change....

Surprisingly enough they find time to get in line for sales and holiday bargains.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/grossman/1929/breakdown/


What do you guys think keeps prisoners (most of the time) from taking over the prison and in cases where it did happen what do you think drove the prisoners to do so?

EDIT- the answer is grievances based in MATERIAL CONDITIONS. Look at the world as a giant mock prison. We're all under the control of the bourgeoisie (prison guard) but what will cause us to take the prison over? It's simple to understand- it's not economic determinism but a common sense guide to what will spark a successful global revolution. Severe capitalist crisis =declining material conditions.

Why do you think the bourgeoisie are pumping up the anti communist propaganda during the current crisis? Because they understand Marx/human history I just quoted myself :)

[marxist maxime]

same here in britain...no one can give a shit not just because people are told communism is not good but that no one actually knows of it...it played such an important role but now they think of it as another failed experiment...we need somthing big...a flash mob in trafalgar,new york center, the UN headquarters! we need to show the world we are not a bunch of hippies and that we mean deep shit.:mad:

[redz]

I don't think the problem is "people" "not giving a shit". Not at all.
It's that the leaders of the mass organizations are working overtime to stop any movement from happening and to contain any movement that breaks out.
Their success creates apathy and confusion and prevents the spread of revolutionary-ideas.
And their success is only possible thanks to a self-proclaimed revolutionary left that by-and-large covers for them in one way or another.


I think Red Track Worker is square on target here - I was about to post the same kind of message myself, in different words.

The craven subservience of the labor bureaucracy (labor lieutenants of the ruling class) plus the craven subservience of 99.99% of "progessives" and the "radical left" to those bureaucrats and in turn to the various Judas goats in the Democratic Party, has castrated and eviscerated the labor movement and demoralized the American working class and "progressive" public, causing them to lose hope and in turn distrust the left (and for good reason).

That should be the starting point of discussion...

Redz

[Delenda Carthago]

I m kinda hangovered right now, so I ma make this quicker than I would like.

A.Stop *****in, stop cryin. Pessimism is the child decease of the revolutionary as Lenin said. And stop spreading your pessimism around. It only makes things worse.

B. You are talkin about a country that 50.000.000 people are eating from the state meals and are living in tents and shit, and you talkin about people shopping? No wonder you dont have the space to be heard my dear revolutionary...

C. Peoples minds are away from socialism NOW. But not to far ago, in the 70s socialism was on the table for hunderds of thousands. So, start to sharping your mind if you think its worth it, because the potential excists.

D. No empires capital ever in history has ever beeing the spark of a revolution.This is US today. Dont worry.Its not your job to start something. Your job is to clear the land so when its going to happen in the rest of the western world,you will be able to capitalise from it.

[redz]

same here in britain...no one can give a shit not just because people are told communism is not good but that no one actually knows of it...it played such an important role but now they think of it as another failed experiment...we need somthing big...a flash mob in trafalgar,new york center, the UN headquarters! we need to show the world we are not a bunch of hippies and that we mean deep shit.:mad:


The struggle to rebuild workingclass consciousness, seems to me, must be focused initially in the trade unions. The unions are the base, frontline organizations of the workers fighting for their interests (or supposed to fight). The task of revolutionists is to use transitional demands to lead working people beyond an economistic consciousness and toward a revolutionary political consciousness.

This requires a tedious, systematic struggle, during which revolutionists must accrue trust by supporting, yes, legitimate economistic goals (e.g., higher wages, better working conditions) but linking those ultimately to the need to struggle for workers' seizure of state power.

It also means exposing and opposing the lackeys of the capitalists within the union leaderships, and the left-lackeys of the lackeys.

Redz

[Rakhmetov]

What needs to happen is that some guy like John Brown needs to carrry out a raid against a U.S. military arsenal to moblilize popular opinion.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif“I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with Blood. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/quotation/i-john_brown-am_now_quite_certain_that_the_crimes/259083.html)”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F6SKsEEQC0QJ:thinkexist.com/quotes/top/first-name/john/last-name/brown/+john+brown+quotes&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[theAnarch]

well the fact that theres people on here asking why people dont give a shit proves that people give a shit.

[NKVD]

I think Lenin's theory of imperialism helps explain the problems we are facing.

[apawllo]

well the fact that theres people on here asking why people dont give a shit proves that people give a shit.

Most people I know and come across genuinely care. The problem I see more frequently than apathy is fear. This I think is a product of misunderstanding, or possibly a complete lack of understanding of what is causing current socioeconomic conditions.

[Widerstand]

Most people I talk to are like "anarchism/communism would be great but it can't work."

So like.

Meh.

[apawllo]

I hear a lot of partisan accusations here. It's more often something like "the Democrats need to fight for jobs" than anything of substance that we as people can do. I'll sometimes throw out something like "I find it interesting that people in Europe are going through essentially the same things as we are and as a result rioting in the streets." It typically raises a few eyebrows and at the same time scares people off...

[NKVD]

Most people I talk to are like "anarchism/communism would be great but it can't work."

So like.

Meh.

That's cause anarchism won't work, and most "communists" in the west are anarchists. Thus, communism in people's minds gets associated with anarchism.

[Struggle]

To quote one of my professors "[Unfortunately] People vote with their mouths"

That should give you some explanation of when 'people will start giving a shit' - In a word, when people are suffering so much, that they will, without thinking, ‘want to give a shit’.

There is another popular phrase; "Democracy is just a word to people who are starving".

[Rafiq]

They think they are putting too much at risk.

Tell them they have nothing to lose but their chains.

Tell them they could be getting much more.

Don't be a huge tankie to them, don't even mention Communism.

Whenever you do, an alarm goes off in there head saying "ALERT ALERT DO NOT LISTEN"

[Jazzhands]

That's cause anarchism won't work, and most "communists" in the west are anarchists. Thus, communism in people's minds gets associated with anarchism.

I had no idea Stalin was an anarchist!:rolleyes:

[Tatarin]

You have to turn the question around: shit needs to happen in order for people do give a shit (you can only fight shit with shit you see).

The thing is - shit is already happening. When the "worker-leaned" governments of Europe started to screw over the working class, they declined. Instead, the European right-wing (the "liberals") started using similar slogans - "we are the ones who gives to people who work!". The xenophobes turned away from openly neonazism, even accepted some immigrants into their parties, and also started to use the very same slogans: "take from immigration, give to workers, pensioneers, etc".

So in a far away sense (if you like), people do still cling to their interests. Thus they do give a shit. As far as I can see, the tea party in the US is also proof of that, that people want some sort of drastic change (it doesn't even matter that they are supported and defended by powerful interests, just that they really are a mass movement and do have sympathies).

In short, as it looks today, real shit needs to happen in order for people to do something, as history proves also. Russia and China was even worse of, and for a long time, before their respective revolutions, and even then they had civil wars to win. Not to mention India and Nepal, countries I can only imagine what they had before they started their insurrections.

I mean, a bear in the woods won't attack you until you start destroying it's home, stealing it's food, cutting down it's environment, paving a road it hasn't allowance to be on, and so on. The prison example mentioned at the beginning of this thread is also a good way of looking on it. People do tend to survive as best they can until they can't survive in any state (i.e. having to work for 50 hours in 24 hours, or eating once a week, etc).

[R_P_A_S]

I just don't see it. I don't see it happening the way most of you "have read about" in your books. I have very little now. I have not found found full time work in nearly 18 months and my unemployment expires in 2 weeks. My part time job is a joke and these internships are just exploiting me. I sleep in my car 4 to 5 days out of the week.

I just wanna work so I can pay my fucking student loans so my parents don't get stiff with the damn bill cus they are also in debt. I'm just saying. I want something to go down and every day we learn how fucked up the working people have it but no one does shit about it. People really believe things will start looking up. Start looking up as in.. capitalism will be working "for me again"

[Amphictyonis]

B. You are talkin about a country that 50.000.000 people are eating from the state meals and are living in tents and shit, and you talkin about people shopping? No wonder you dont have the space to be heard my dear revolutionary...





B.There is always a perpetually unemployed population in advanced capitalist nations. Out of the 350,000,000 people in the US don't you think, perhaps, capitalism has formed hundreds of millions of peoples perceptions of what so called human nature is (selfishness/geed) what freedom means (the freedom to "choose" multi colored products) what it means to be a man or woman etc. The very fibers of humanity by in large in the USA and other advanced capitalist nations are saturated with capitalism/consumerism/greed/selfishness. Breaking this spell is the goal of both anarchists and Marxists.

u2GOdOYegW4

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Leftists need to stop dissociating themselves from the people. We are the people. The fact that some leftists talk about people in society as if they were outsiders looking in on them is testament to the level of atomization and loneliness forced on individuals in advanced capitalist societies. You are somebody and you give a shit! Realizing that we are not alone is the first step.

Enough talk about "Americans" as some homogeneous reactionary mass. If you live in the USA, look at yourself and ask yourself how did you get radicalized? Share your experiences and engage in the struggles that people around you are going through, because most likely they are having the same problems as you.

[La Comédie Noire]

Leftists need to stop dissociating themselves from the people. We are the people. The fact that some leftists talk about people in society as if they were outsiders looking in on them is testament to the level of atomization and loneliness forced on individuals in advanced capitalist societies. You are somebody and you give a shit! Realizing that we are not alone is the first step.

Enough talk about "Americans" as some homogeneous reactionary mass. If you live in the USA, look at yourself and ask yourself how did you get radicalized? Share your experiences and engage in the struggles that people around you are going through, because most likely they are having the same problems as you.

I agree with this 100% People are always like "People are too stupid to get it and they never will" but it's like"well you got it and you aren't exactly a genius are you?"

[Amphictyonis]

.

Enough talk about "Americans" as some homogeneous reactionary mass. If you live in the USA, look at yourself and ask yourself how did you get radicalized?

By poverty. By having it be almost impossible to survive. By realizing life doesn't have to be like this. Through hunger, anger and desperation. By bosses treating me like an object. A thing. A tool. Anger. I was revolutionized via anger.

The Americans I do see as a homogeneous reactionary masses are the ones content with their daily lives. I see them in the streets, at the market, driving in cars laughing, going on vacation. Probably get 10 hours of sleep a night. Eat well. Have 3.5 kids and a dog. The middle class.

In my neighborhood the poverty has, at the behest of the capitalist, turned into a very reactionary culture. The bourgeoisie have managed to turn 'ghettos' into areas manufacturing hyper exaggerated capitalist mind frames. Ego's, greed, obsession with wealth and social status but at the same time in San Fransisco/Oakland most of the actual socialists are minorities or students.

The Bay Area by in large is a bastion of middle class reactionaries completley consumed by the reality capitalism has created (and this is the Bay Area- supposedly the most "progressive" area in America). I don't see people in Marin, Orinda, Lafayette, Moraga, Blackhawk etc just turning to socialism one day because workers in San Fransisco/Oakland organize and take to the streets.

[Across The Street]

People do give a shit. Obama has plunged this nation over 60 trillion dollars into debt, though each of us has played our part. I think people are starting to realize the dollar has almost no fucking value. Everyone I spark up a conversation with who doesnt seem to be radical, usually just so happens to be. The comrade from Greece is right. The negativity and pessimism are bullshit. People are not sheep or cattle, we may make some stupid collective decisions, such as destroying the environment day by fucking day, but in general we are the only source of power. Real power, not some figment of the imagination. Unemployment is practically at Depression-era levels. The US is feeling it and we're getting hit hard. I refuse to think that we won't find a way out of this mess, and I refuse to believe capitalism will last much longer. The internet won't be around forever either, or at the very least we'll witness a major lapse in communications technology. Some heads need to be pulled out of some asses here. We're on the brink of true change. Everyone in the world with an ounce of feeling and even a thin shred of soul feels it. We have been living our lives just trying to survive and not giving a shit here in the US for too fucking long. Don't let it hit you when it meets the fan.

[Outinleftfield]

People know more and care more than they let on.

Disillusionment is the problem.

I'm one of the few people among my friends who actually has the guts to bring things like this up. I've heard many people say they've heard of the same things and agree it's a problem but don't believe there's anything that can be done. Some even believe in socialism but don't see it is as possible to effect any change whether reformist or revolutionary.

The people who care don't think anything can be done. That is the problem. A credible resistance movement is needed.

1. Expand Union Presence To High Schools. Let us establish ourselves in the high schools, form unions, organize the students. Alienation and capitalist indoctrination is at its worst in primary education and must be confronted there.

2. Encourage Independent Organizing. People should be encouraged that even if they are prohibited from forming a union or their union is irresponsible then they can still do "union-like" activities. They can meet and talk with their coworkers about what's going on and what they could do in the workplace without calling it a union.

3. Be Proactive. The state is ignoring the needs of the people more now than ever. We should organize to end social ills that the capitalist system is incapable of fighting effectively to demonstrate the uselessness of capitalism to the public. We can organize to find ways to end homelessness, and provide better disaster relief outside of the system.

4. Sow The Seeds of A New Economic System. We should participate more in online bartering and encourage people to extract themselves from the capitalist system(while teaching them that "capitalist system" doesn't mean "private sector" it means the entire system of exploitation that encompasses both the international market economy and the "states" used by it to maintain the system) as much as possible.

5. Embrace and Engage in the Culture War. The right has monopolized "culture war" rhetoric for too long. It is time for us to proudly acknowledge that there is a "culture war" and the right is on the wrong side of it. The prevailing culture and norms is always that of the ruling class. The cultural norms have evolved to suit their interests. By investigating, challenging, and opposing those norms which exist to prop up capitalism we weaken the system. Activism, including involvement in referenda and local politics to push against laws and attitudes based on reactionary puritanism should be encouraged. We should actively get involved in campaigns against the war on drugs, for gay rights, but not stop there. Issues that are not currently politically contentious should be raised, such as legalizing public nudity. Each cultural struggle challenges preconceptions and ideas that help keep the capitalist system alive.

[Hexen]

The internet won't be around forever either, or at the very least we'll witness a major lapse in communications technology.

It's more like that the internet will not survive much longer under capitalism as stated here (http://www.marxist.com/capitalism-internet-patents130306.htm). However I do predict that the internet will be one of the major causes of the revolution if the capitalists will eventually rob it from us which will only expose what their truly are and it will piss alot of people off who once took the internet for granted.

The internet as it currently exists now is meant to exist and can only survive permanently under a post-revolutionary society which is something that is incompatible with a capitalist society and they'll not allow that.

[Delenda Carthago]

B.There is always a perpetually unemployed population in advanced capitalist nations. Out of the 350,000,000 people in the US don't you think, perhaps, capitalism has formed hundreds of millions of peoples perceptions of what so called human nature is (selfishness/geed) what freedom means (the freedom to "choose" multi colored products) what it means to be a man or woman etc. The very fibers of humanity by in large in the USA and other advanced capitalist nations are saturated with capitalism/consumerism/greed/selfishness. Breaking this spell is the goal of both anarchists and Marxists.

u2GOdOYegW4
what i m sayin is that when you occupy yourself with the people that are in a good condition right now instead of doing work with the unemployed and the poor, what do you expect?And what is that moralistic treatment towards people that are in a good economic situation? Why do you expect from them something like that? That is so anarchist morals. I hate that. People will do whatever their fuckin need is. If their need is to shop,they are going to shop.There is nothing wrong with that. When their need is gonna be something else, there gonna do something else. Our job is to make clear to them the character of the system and what alternatives there is.

[Amphictyonis]

And what is that moralistic treatment towards people that are in a good economic situation? Why do you expect from them something like that? That is so anarchist morals. I hate that. People will do whatever their fuckin need is. If their need is to shop,they are going to shop.

But only when their need cannot be fulfilled will you see a mass movement arise. It's not moralistic treatment and I'm not an anarchist. I'd rather not rehash this argument here so I'll direct you over here if you want to have nice happy play time fun. Also I don't occupy myself with the petty bourgeoisie but I don't live in an isolation chamber. Also, I am the unemployed and poor, I speak with my fellow unemployed and poor in a non condescending manner every day. Maybe I should invite you to the next function in the Bay Area I attend?

(EDIT- well we can have have this conversation here but I'm just going to be repeating a few of the things I said below :))


http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-barbarismi-t145387/index.html

[Victus Mortuum]

There ARE protests and demonstrations. There IS general discontent and anger at the government and the system. What there needs to be is a FRAME-BREAKING alternative culture. We need to break people out of the way we are taught to FRAME the question of change. Either private capitalism or public capitalism - because the members of the government are just the servants of private capital. We need massive sociopolitical organization to pose the question of something to replace economic and political dictators, to break people of the presupposition of these things:

Worker-Class Party-Movement (http://www.revleft.com/vb/worker-class-party-t143857/index.html)

Forget your tendency. Forget the stupid disputes of the past. Educate, Agitate, Organize!

[FreeFocus]

What needs to happen is that some guy like John Brown needs to carrry out a raid against a U.S. military arsenal to moblilize popular opinion.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/3star.gif http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/ThumbsUp.gif http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/i/sq/ThumbsDwn.gif“I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with Blood. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/quotation/i-john_brown-am_now_quite_certain_that_the_crimes/259083.html)”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F6SKsEEQC0QJ:thinkexist.com/quotes/top/first-name/john/last-name/brown/+john+brown+quotes&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

While it would be a (symbolic) blow to imperialism, the general public will be crying about terrorists "targeting our heroes." The public might have been mad about the bailouts, for example, and people like Bernie Madoff, but they don't get mad at the military for massacres and occupying other people's countries.

[Delenda Carthago]

But only when their need cannot be fulfilled will you see a mass movement arise. It's not moralistic treatment and I'm not an anarchist. I'd rather not rehash this argument here so I'll direct you over here if you want to have nice happy play time fun. Also I don't occupy myself with the petty bourgeoisie but I don't live in an isolation chamber. Also, I am the unemployed and poor, I speak with my fellow unemployed and poor in a non condescending manner every day. Maybe I should invite you to the next function in the Bay Area I attend?

(EDIT- well we can have have this conversation here but I'm just going to be repeating a few of the things I said below :))


http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-barbarismi-t145387/index.html
Firstly, I was talkin on the guy who made the post.
Seconldy, we about to become neighbors... :tt2:

[human strike]

Oppose the spectacle, comrades. Smash the fuck outta it. Shake the world out of its dream like state.

[Across The Street]

Close friends and relatives are being taken to supposed mental health facilities and/or have pending court dates. I have a feeling any supposed dissent will trigger the lock-down of comrades and loved ones. This shit is as real for me as its ever gonna get. Everyone one I know is dirt poor and some of you may label me and everyone I know as middle class. Fuck anyone and everyone who threatens me and my family and those I know and love.

[palotin]

It always feels a little trite to respond to questions like this by invoking Society of the Spectacle. I've always felt that this concept of the spectacle is a bit too totalized, but in this instance it really is an essential component of any explanation.

People aren't out in the streets because they've been socialized into thinking of politics and acting politically according to a logic deriving from consumerism. I get annoyed at the oft-repeated truism that Americans equate political action with voting. This is clearly not the case. More people spend more time reading political writings and listening to political speech than ever before. We all have liberal friends who obsessively read the Huffington Post or Salon or something. They see themselves as politically engaged or at least define themselves strongly in terms of adherence to a particular ideology or of rejection of another. The point I'm trying to make is that politics has become the continual consumption of things like opinion 'journalism'.

Reaction to and opinion about world events have become the sole terrain of politics. The furor over Wikileaks exemplifies this. The moral imperative is to read what such luminaries as Sarah Palin, William Kristol and/or Glenn Greenwald have to say on the subject, depending on your orientation. Political action is not confined to the ballot box, it exists throughout our daily lives in the form of self-cultivation of ideological purity through the compulsive consumption of various commodified representations of real world events. This redefinition of politics is what allows the State to claim that anyone who participates in street demonstrations is acting in a way that is of borderline legitimacy, at best.

[Mindtoaster]

I only read the first page of this thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned already

I think one of the reasons socialism isn't that popular here is because the left at large still seems stuck on trying to break through to white males, often in the now puny industrial sector

I think a lot of leftists need to realize that people of color now likely make up a majority of the American working class, and that the best hope for revolution lies in them. Our energy needs to be taken out of the trendy urban centers, out of the industrial unions and universities and put into the ghettos and into low-income service sector workplaces. The proletariat isn't so much in the car factories anymore as it is McDonalds.

I believe a lot of the pessimism amongst the American left these days that you've seen with the rise of the tea party manifested itself because leftists are still hoping that their movement is going to arise out of the white working class. It just isn't, take this from a guy whose lived in the rural south his entire life, whites are going to be fixated in defending privilege (some real, mostly perceived) from the spread of black and hispanic populations. A lot of whites also have incomes so high that the idea of radical change brings about feelings of insecurity and uncertainty. A lot of work needs to be done in educating and agitating women of color, who now make up a huge portion of the American proletariat. Unionizing the service sector is another thing that needs to be worked on. Sorry if this wasn't directly on topic, but this sense of pessimism rises from misdirected energy.

On another note, the PSL seems to do a good job at reaching out to the demographics I mentioned above, but they still seem sort of stuck in the activist scene.

Also, I don't know why the most recent wikileaks would cause anyone to give a shit. Nothing of any serious importance has been leaked so far

[bcbm]

i don't think its useful to think in terms of organizing/spontaneous mass movements capable of challenging power happening at this stage. what is more useful is getting together with our friends/neighbors/coworkers/like-minded individuals and starting to form our own survival/support networks. things are going to get worse for the economy and for all of us on the bottom and the better situated we are now to deal with shit the better we will be in the long run. just do what you can and try not to get too bummed.

need/more/slashes/in/post

[El Rojo]

for the UK i think post Milbank there is a whif more popular dissent. at least with the students. however at the end of the day the maj. of the population are still totally monged out. In terms of what has to happen before people to care, its probably gonna take the food not arriving in thier supermarkets. the west is one 2 meals away from food riots at and given time

[Amphictyonis]

Firstly, I was talkin on the guy who made the post.
Seconldy, we about to become neighbors... :tt2:

Moving to San Fransisco/Bay Area?