If America should go Communist

[bawbag]

I wasn't sure where to post this and I don't know if it has been posted before but I wanted to get your views on this article I stumbled across.

http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/trotsky/if_america_should_go_communist.html

I must admit a lot of it has gone right over my head and there wasn't too much that I understood but what do you people think of this article?

Is it accurate/credible in today's USA?

Edit: I just realised it was written by Trotsky. I haven't read anything by Trotsky before this, I know a lot of people on here agree with him and others disagree but what are your opinions about this specific article?

[Spawn of Stalin]

I've read this one a few times before, I don't think you can really judge without first having a good understanding of the conditions in the US at the time Trotsky wrote it, something I do not have much of. But a lot of it seems fairly viable. I do however think that this is one of Trotsky's writings that truly represented his selling himself to the west, but that's just my opinion. Paragraphs like these really piss me off..

"In fact, the Soviet Yankees of the future will give a lead to Europe in those very fields where Europe has hitherto been your master. Europeans have little conception of the power of technology to influence human destiny and have adopted an attitude of sneering superiority toward "Americanism," particularly since the crisis. Yet Americanism marks the true dividing line between the Middle Ages and the modern world."

[Spawn of Stalin]

And this one too

"While the romantic numskulls of Nazi Germany are dreaming of restoring the old race of Europe's Dark Forest to its original purity, or rather its original filth, you Americans, after taking a firm grip on your economic machinery and your culture, will apply genuine scientific methods to the problem of eugenics. Within a century, out of your melting pot of races there will come a new breed of men -- the first worthy of the name of Man."

I dunno I guess to me it seems like Trotsky is saying "hey, you're American, you're better than this, and if you work hard at it, you can be superior to the whole world", something they more or less ended up doing, albeit without the help of Trotsky.

[Morgenstern]

His BS stinks of the same as those on the political right. Yes, America has shown to do things no other nation has done. It's quite unique. But at the same time we raise America up on such a high pedestal it's disgusting. America can fail just like the Soviet Union. But more importantly it takes more work for Americans to revolt (or revolt now in the 21st century). We are fat literally and figuratively. We don't want to revolt or do any work on the figurative side. On the literal side we are facing unhealthy foods and an unhealthy youth. With nearly 20% of our teenagers and 20% of our young children obese (http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/obesity/) a physical struggle isn't easy.

Europe will turn Communist before America. If anything America will be the last to turn Communist. Perhaps first to be a new police state or corporatist state but last to be Communist. Puritanical influences of free enterprise and ruthless money making still exist.

[Kléber]

this is one of Trotsky's writings that truly represented his selling himself to the westThis is one of motionless' posts that truly represents his trolling his own head up his ass.

Keep in mind that this article was written during the Great Depression, at the height of working-class radicalism in the USA, and before it assumed a position of hegemony among the imperialist countries.

[Q]

For the time it was written (context is everything in the use of language), it was a superb piece of agitation.

I love reading it every time I do. Especially parts like these:


As to the comparatively few opponents of the soviet revolution, one can trust to American inventive genius. It may well be that you will take your unconvinced millionaires and send them to some picturesque island, rent-free for life, where they can do as they please.

Let's see how they'd manage on their own :D

[Psy]

His BS stinks of the same as those on the political right. Yes, America has shown to do things no other nation has done. It's quite unique. But at the same time we raise America up on such a high pedestal it's disgusting. America can fail just like the Soviet Union. But more importantly it takes more work for Americans to revolt (or revolt now in the 21st century). We are fat literally and figuratively. We don't want to revolt or do any work on the figurative side. On the literal side we are facing unhealthy foods and an unhealthy youth. With nearly 20% of our teenagers and 20% of our young children obese (http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/obesity/) a physical struggle isn't easy.

Europe will turn Communist before America. If anything America will be the last to turn Communist. Perhaps first to be a new police state or corporatist state but last to be Communist. Puritanical influences of free enterprise and ruthless money making still exist.
You are confusing a stereotype of Americans with the American industrial proletariat that has a long history of violent militancy as recent as the 1980's. Just because the American industrial proletariat hasn't been as militant recently doesn't mean they we will never become militant again.

Also the American industrial proletariat are not as effected by obesity due to being on their feet most of the day and capitalists pushing industrial workers hard to maximize the physical labor they can exploit from them.

[Q]

You are confusing a stereotype of Americans with the American industrial proletariat that has a long history of violent militancy as recent as the 1980's. Just because the American industrial proletariat hasn't been as militant recently doesn't mean they we will never become militant again.

Also the American industrial proletariat are not as effected by obesity due to being on their feet most of the day and capitalists pushing industrial workers hard to maximize the physical labor they can exploit from them.

During the deindustrialisation of the last 40 years or so, things did change dramatically. From the world's leading industrial producer, the US changed to the world's drainage. I'd argue that did change a lot in the militancy and make up of the American working class. Other countries, notably the UK, have also seen massive deindustrialisation in this period. The reason for this exactly being to break the working class movement, uh, I mean "discipline" it.

[Spawn of Stalin]

This is one of motionless' posts that truly represents his trolling his own head up his ass.
Get the fuck out of here with that crap, I made a genuine criticism and you accuse me of trolling, I should've seen this coming. This is the thing about Trotsky, you can't say a single bad thing about him, ever, no matter how much you admit his merits, you just can't criticise the guy, because in the minds of people like you, he is untouchable. Like I said, the article is fine but Trotsky's angle is messed up, he's talking about Americans like they are Communism's chosen ones, he's just pandering to nationalism, I guess I'm the only one who has a problem with that.

[Kléber]

you just can't criticise the guy, because in the minds of people like you, he is untouchable
There are plenty of things to criticize about Trotsky, calling for a communist revolution in any country is not one of them.


Like I said, the article is fine but Trotsky's angle is messed up, he's talking about Americans like they are Communism's chosen ones, he's just pandering to nationalism, I guess I'm the only one who has a problem with that.He wasn't pandering to US nationalism, he was trashing reactionary European imperialism. Instead of encouraging fellow revolutionists like he had done in Russia, what should Trotsky have told the American comrades? "You 'US workers' are not workers at all, but a labor aristocrat bourgeoisie! Just wait until I build a new Red Army and march into your disgusting country..."

Like I said, this was written in 1934. The USA was not the dominant imperialist country, it was a minor one. Its economy was not flourishing, it was in the worst crisis in history. The workers were not fat and complacent, they were oppressed and militant.

Minneapolis Teamsters' Strike of 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Teamsters_Strike_of_1934)

Textile Workers' Strike of 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textile_workers_strike_%281934%29)

West Coast Waterfront Strike of 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_West_Coast_waterfront_strike)

Toledo Auto-Lite Strike of 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Lite_Strike)

[Obs]

There are plenty of things to criticize about Trotsky.
Dare ya to name one.

[Psy]

During the deindustrialisation of the last 40 years or so, things did change dramatically. From the world's leading industrial producer, the US changed to the world's drainage. I'd argue that did change a lot in the militancy and make up of the American working class. Other countries, notably the UK, have also seen massive deindustrialisation in this period. The reason for this exactly being to break the working class movement, uh, I mean "discipline" it.
I think the large reason is bourgeoisie unions disciplining workers more since the austerity of the 1980's causing militant workers having to fight more on two fronts (the capitalists and their union). For example the militancy of the industrial Japanese proletariat was crushed in 1987 when the JNR railway workers fought against privatization only to find their union had already sold them out and the militant group within the union were brutally crushed by police with the help of the union.

We can see this in the USA where the autoworkers were ready to fight yet the UAW sided with the bosses and helped bosses and police single out out militant leaders within the auto industry just like what happened to militant Japanese railway workers in the 1980's.

[bawbag]

I want to learn more about Trotsky's ideas and ideologies, where should I start?

[Aurora]

I want to learn more about Trotsky's ideas and ideologies, where should I start?
I think Trotsky's book "The Revolution Betrayed: What is the Soviet Union and where is it going? " gives a pretty good idea of trotsky's views relating to the SU his criticism of it and his defence of its gains. You could always look through the trotsky archive on www.marxists.org

Dare ya to name one.
According to Lunacharsky he was pretty arrogant and difecult to work with but brilliant. I think his position on the trade unions was wrong and his position on the treaty of brest litovsk was wrong, but neither of these are part of 'trotskyism'.

Also i think 'if america should go communist' is a very good article, its practical view of the huge development of the productive forces being the basis of communism is quite refreshing, especially when you consider that most marxists write about revolution in the underdeveloped countries.

[chegitz guevara]

Trotsky wasn't the only communist to right such paeans to the American workers. Marx did. Lenin did.

[Aurora]

Could you link them? i dont think ive read them before.

interesting word 'paean' learn something new everyday :)