OCCUPATION BLUES No. 19

[redstar2000]

No blues for Rupert Murdoch as "patriotism sells"...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/business/3148015.stm

But stealing Iraq's oil looks like a tough proposition...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/3156661.stm

A Danish mercenary is properly rewarded...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3157877.stm

And the mercenaries strike back, killing a Palestinian cameraman (Reuters)...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3159019.stm

Iraqis see through the "blue helmets"--the United Nations personnel in Iraq are lackeys of U.S. imperialism...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/3164887.stm

Excellent news! And more to come...

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[Sabocat]

The Iraqi resistance to imperialism is getting quite impressive.

I find it particularly laughable that Kofi Anann was shocked at the attack on the UN headquarters. Why should he be? The UN backed down to the U$' demands on invasion and allowed the attack on Iraq people with barely a wimper. Why shouldn't they be pissed at the UN? They're just another player in the occupation at this point.

[187]

Yeah that bombing really helped the Iraqi cause....

"Excellent news! And more to come..."

Yes, we are all excited for more "excellent news" on death and destruction.

[Loknar]

It will eventuallly die down. Remember the Polish resistance to the Russians after WW2?

[suffianr]

Remember the Polish resistance to the Russians after WW2?

I've heard that history repeats itself, but hey, maybe it's just me, but why is it that people like to compare one conflict to another, as if to say that they might be interpreted in similar ways, and to which they can say that they fully understand the implications and outcomes of both scenarios, despite the possiblity that there lies absolutely no congruence between, say, Iraq and Poland whatsoever? Despite the fact that certain events happen with unique variables like, oh I don't know, geographical location? Or how about different opposing forces, tactical & logistic plans and even, well, I maybe taking a wild guess here, different social and political circumstances? Or even timelines?

Remember the massacre at Khalistan? Doesn't it remind you of The Great Revolt of 1857? Or, wait, how about the French Revolution? Doesn't that remind you of Cromwell? Hey, while we're at it, doesn't Chuck Norris remind you of one of the bad guys in Bruce Lee movies? Wait, he was a bad guy in Bruce Lee movies...

For goodness sake, what does the Polish resistance have to do with Iraqi Fedayeen? Oh, I get it, maybe the world will forget about Iraqis the same way they forgot about the Poles. Yes, that's it! By Jove, Loknar, you're a genius!

[Kapitan Andrey]

Remember the Polish resistance to the Russians after WW2?

No! Ukrainian resistance! Bendera's bandits killed our soliders untill 1957!!! But they are SUFFERD!!! :D



yankee are dieing!!! And that's good! :angry:

[Invader Zim]

No offence anyone, but those who fight for the removal of US troops from Iraq, are the reminance of the Imperial Guard (I know that’s not what they were really called, but hey, it sounds more dramatic :lol: ) The same ones who have committed genocide in the name of Saddam... and you support them.

Another thing we must ask our selves about these, self proclaimed, "freedom fighters", is why do they want to remove the Americans from there nation. You may be correct, perhaps they are noble men and women fighting the good fight out of righteousness and pure selflessness... But I doubt it, no, what they really are trying to achieve is the restoration of the Baath party regime, primarily under their old leader, Saddam, "the beast of the middle east" as I saw him described by a member of "amnesty international", They want to return a genocide, fascist, tyrant and you support them. I remember when you questioned my credentials as a leftist, perhaps you should review your own ideology's.

Of course there other fighters against the American and British occupation, them vast majority of them are not even from Iraq, they are people who hate the Americans, and have gone to Iraq to fight a Jihad against the hated infidels, in the name of Allah, and who ever else gives them an excuse to vent their racist rage and kill Americans.

Like I said there may be some members of the righteous freedom fighter persuasion out to save there country from Americans. However as soon as the Americans leave, you can bet your money that Saddam will be back like a shot, back to his old despotic ways.

I think we should also consider the long term effects of this attack on US/UK troops, if the Americans were left alone, they would set up some government and stability to Iraq then go away. But with these continuing attacks that will not be the case, I will explain, as the Americans don’t want to lose face in front of the world, they will simply send more troops to Iraq in order to protect the ones they already have there, rather like a show of strength. The Iraq fighters will simply be faced by yet more troops, and a bloody war of attrition will follow. Where all that will happen is that US troops and Iraqi fighters get killed, while stuck in the middle Iraqi people will suffer and be killed. Yes the very same people you claimed to want to protect by not going to war, now by supporting the fascist resistance forces (who will simply prolong the suffering and death of Iraqi civilians) you are effectively supporting yet more civilians being killed. This shows that you guys have obviously not thought through your position in this situation, and are using dodgy logic to justify your desire to see American troops being killed. Which is basically what you want, if Andrey here is a fine example of your attitudes.

AK47

:cool:

[Sabocat]

My initial response is that Iraq has every right to self determination. That shouldn't be the determination of a foreign entity. If these guys fighting the guerilla war aren't fighting for freedom from occupation but for re-installment of Saddam, then I would imagine it would be the duty of the people to rise up against them, or rat them out to the U$ forces. They've gotta be hiding somewhere. So far that doesn't seem to be happening, so it appears that they have support of the people.

What I'm not aware of, (and quite naturally don't see on the news here in the US) is there growing support from the Iraqi people for these guerilla's?

At first blush, as evidenced by demonstrations by parties that were once opposition to Saddam's regime, it appears that they want the U$ occupational forces out as well.

As far as the stabilization of the country by American forces, I'm not sure that is their true goal. Client state is probably more accurate a term. The U$ and Britain want it stabalized so as to have stable, unrestricted access to oil I would guess. I would also suspect that there will always be several large U$ and possibly coalition military bases there. They are definitely not going to walk away from the strategic goodie that they've grabbed.

It would appear that a good indication of intentions, is that the American forces broke up and arrested members of a forming labor union the other day. So much for the people controlling their destiny, and hopes and dreams for a better life in the New Iraq I guess.

Remember as well that the U$ and coalition forces were there under completely false pretences. That as well makes me question the intentions of the occupation.

I guess the true indicator of it being Republican Guard based, or freedom fighter base, will be the willingness of the population to join the struggle. What are the odds that we'll ever know if that's the case or not. I don't suspect that that's going to be something that we're going to see on FauxNews anytime soon.

[redstar2000]

No offense anyone, but those who fight for the removal of US troops from Iraq, are the remnants of the Imperial Guard (I know that’s not what they were really called, but hey, it sounds more dramatic) The same ones who have committed genocide in the name of Saddam... and you support them.

Offense taken. You are not there, AK47, you do not speak the language, you have no fucking idea who is in the resistance movement(s) there or why...like always, all you can do is repeat the press handouts of your imperial masters, lackey!

I think we should also consider the long term effects of this attack on US/UK troops, if the Americans were left alone, they would set up some government and stability to Iraq then go away. But with these continuing attacks that will not be the case, I will explain, as the Americans don’t want to lose face in front of the world, they will simply send more troops to Iraq in order to protect the ones they already have there, rather like a show of strength. The Iraq fighters will simply be faced by yet more troops, and a bloody war of attrition will follow.

Therefore no one should ever resist U.S. imperialism...it's just better for everyone to obey the "good master", right, squire?

...you are effectively supporting yet more civilians being killed...

Whereas you prefer them to accept their chains, made in America and in your own imperialist country.

A leftist? You? You are a servile lackey of U.S. and British imperialism.

And this is the only forum you should be allowed to post in!

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 01:41 PM
My initial response is that Iraq has every right to self determination. That shouldn't be the determination of a foreign entity. If these guys fighting the guerilla war aren't fighting for freedom from occupation but for re-installment of Saddam, then I would imagine it would be the duty of the people to rise up against them, or rat them out to the U$ forces. They've gotta be hiding somewhere. So far that doesn't seem to be happening, so it appears that they have support of the people.

What I'm not aware of, (and quite naturally don't see on the news here in the US) is there growing support from the Iraqi people for these guerilla's?

At first blush, as evidenced by demonstrations by parties that were once opposition to Saddam's regime, it appears that they want the U$ occupational forces out as well.

As far as the stabilization of the country by American forces, I'm not sure that is their true goal. Client state is probably more accurate a term. The U$ and Britain want it stabalized so as to have stable, unrestricted access to oil I would guess. I would also suspect that there will always be several large U$ and possibly coalition military bases there. They are definitely not going to walk away from the strategic goodie that they've grabbed.

It would appear that a good indication of intentions, is that the American forces broke up and arrested members of a forming labor union the other day. So much for the people controlling their destiny, and hopes and dreams for a better life in the New Iraq I guess.

Remember as well that the U$ and coalition forces were there under completely false pretences. That as well makes me question the intentions of the occupation.

I guess the true indicator of it being Republican Guard based, or freedom fighter base, will be the willingness of the population to join the struggle. What are the odds that we'll ever know if that's the case or not. I don't suspect that that's going to be something that we're going to see on FauxNews anytime soon.
My initial response is that Iraq has every right to self determination. That shouldn't be the determination of a foreign entity. If these guys fighting the guerilla war aren't fighting for freedom from occupation but for re-installment of Saddam, then I would imagine it would be the duty of the people to rise up against them, or rat them out to the U$ forces. They've gotta be hiding somewhere. So far that doesn't seem to be happening, so it appears that they have support of the people.

Then how do you account for leaders of the old regime and heads of the resistance such as Uday, Qusay and "chemical" Ali as you put it being ratted out?

What I'm not aware of, (and quite naturally don't see on the news here in the US) is there growing support from the Iraqi people for these guerilla's?

Of course the news will not be 100% reliable, but I have seen many articals from the BBC, (who are very much against the war) which show people talking about the fighters saying how they should go away etc. Also speeking out against Saddam Hussein. But reliability is going to be a problem as you pointed out.

At first blush, as evidenced by demonstrations by parties that were once opposition to Saddam's regime, it appears that they want the U$ occupational forces out as well.

And I dont blame them, who would not want an occupying army out of there country, but those who actually fight are in support of Saddam and his reinstating in power. Well thats what I have been seeing and reading about in the news... as I pointed out the BBC is very much against the war, so I asume it is more accurate than other sources.

As far as the stabilization of the country by American forces, I'm not sure that is their true goal. Client state is probably more accurate a term. The U$ and Britain want it stabalized so as to have stable, unrestricted access to oil I would guess.

True, but as they are under the international spot-light and the voters eye, Bush and Blair have to restore order and all they promised or lose face infront of the voting public. Especially Blair, he is becoming increasingly unpopular in Britain.


It would appear that a good indication of intentions, is that the American forces broke up and arrested members of a forming labor union the other day. So much for the people controlling their destiny, and hopes and dreams for a better life in the New Iraq I guess.

I dont think anybody is saying the Americans have got it right...

Remember as well that the U$ and coalition forces were there under completely false pretences. That as well makes me question the intentions of the occupation.

The intentions of the occupation are as clear as glass, you have already highlighted them in your post. OIL.

I guess the true indicator of it being Republican Guard based, or freedom fighter base, will be the willingness of the population to join the struggle.

If the Iraqi people turn round in a massive revolution and boot out the US/UK forces I will stand corrected.

[Sabocat]

Then how do you account for leaders of the old regime and heads of the resistance such as Uday, Qusay and "chemical" Ali as you put it being ratted out?


Well certainly a 15-20 million dollar cash reward for information will usually find someone to jump on board.

I've never heard that there was any real evidence of Saddam's sons being the head/leadership of the resistance.

Certainly there is no love lost between the people of Iraq and the Hussien's but I haven't seen any evidence of people turning in actual rebel fighters.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 04:29 PM
No offense anyone, but those who fight for the removal of US troops from Iraq, are the remnants of the Imperial Guard (I know that’s not what they were really called, but hey, it sounds more dramatic) The same ones who have committed genocide in the name of Saddam... and you support them.

Offense taken. You are not there, AK47, you do not speak the language, you have no fucking idea who is in the resistance movement(s) there or why...like always, all you can do is repeat the press handouts of your imperial masters, lackey!

I think we should also consider the long term effects of this attack on US/UK troops, if the Americans were left alone, they would set up some government and stability to Iraq then go away. But with these continuing attacks that will not be the case, I will explain, as the Americans don’t want to lose face in front of the world, they will simply send more troops to Iraq in order to protect the ones they already have there, rather like a show of strength. The Iraq fighters will simply be faced by yet more troops, and a bloody war of attrition will follow.

Therefore no one should ever resist U.S. imperialism...it's just better for everyone to obey the "good master", right, squire?

...you are effectively supporting yet more civilians being killed...

Whereas you prefer them to accept their chains, made in America and in your own imperialist country.

A leftist? You? You are a servile lackey of U.S. and British imperialism.

And this is the only forum you should be allowed to post in!

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas
:yawn:

Do I have to even bother addressing this sorry excuse for a flame... I suppose I will have to.

Offense taken.

:yawn: whatever. :rolleyes:


You are not there, AK47, you do not speak the language, you have no fucking idea who is in the resistance movement(s) there or why...

I have the same information as you do. At least I am basing what I am saying on media and eyewitness accounts, primary sources. All you are doing is speculating with no basis at all.

all you can do is repeat the press handouts of your imperial masters, lackey!


My imperialist masters??? WTF? What kind of crap is that? You dont know the slightest thing about me, arrogant prick. As for press handouts, if you think that the BBC are undercontrol of the government then i suggest you review the recent news involving Dr David Kelly, before you make ignorant attacks.

Therefore no one should ever resist U.S. imperialism...it's just better for everyone to obey the "good master", right, squire?

Squire? LOL. Act your age Redstar.

"Therefore no one should ever resist U.S. imperialism...it's just better for everyone to obey the "good master","

I am not even going to dignify that with a response, other than to say you find where I said that.

Whereas you prefer them to accept their chains, made in America and in your own imperialist country.

whatever... excuse me while I go and plan the invasion of some other small inoffensive country and eat some babies. Idiot.

A leftist? You? You are a servile lackey of U.S. and British imperialism.

Blar blar balr... :yawn: If you are going to try and irritate me you may as well at least try and be origoinal, that line is getting very dull.

And this is the only forum you should be allowed to post in!

So I have been told by others, I suggest you take a number and get in line.

However if you feal so strongly post a thread in the CC, or havent you got the balls?



I never thought that I would have to tell a 50+ year old to grow up, but redstar I dont have to take this immature shit from you, seriously grow up.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:44 PM

Then how do you account for leaders of the old regime and heads of the resistance such as Uday, Qusay and "chemical" Ali as you put it being ratted out?


Well certainly a 15-20 million dollar cash reward for information will usually find someone to jump on board.

I've never heard that there was any real evidence of Saddam's sons being the head/leadership of the resistance.

Certainly there is no love lost between the people of Iraq and the Hussien's but I haven't seen any evidence of people turning in actual rebel fighters.
Well certainly a 15-20 million dollar cash reward for information will usually find someone to jump on board.

LOL good point. :D

Certainly there is no love lost between the people of Iraq and the Hussien's but I haven't seen any evidence of people turning in actual rebel fighters.

You also dont here about massive uprisings to smash the Americans.

[Ian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:01 AM
As for press handouts, if you think that the BBC are undercontrol of the government then i suggest you review the recent news involving Dr David Kelly, before you make ignorant attacks.

>ahem< Who is ignorant?&#33; Are you aware that the BBC has been one of the biggest contributors to Tony Blair&#39;s party over the last few years?

An independent group called Media Tenor did a survey and found that the BBC allowed less opposing views than American networks. Look it up&#33;&#33;

[redstar2000]

Do I have to even bother addressing this sorry excuse for a flame

The reason that it&#39;s a "sorry excuse for a flame" is that it isn&#39;t one.

A flame is a post where you call people "arrogant pricks", tell them to "grow up" and "act their age", or that you don&#39;t have to take their "immature shit".

When I pointed out the logical implications of your servile remarks, that was a political criticism...something that you may wish to pretend not to understand but that will be obvious to any leftist who reads this exchange.

I have the same information as you do. At least I am basing what I am saying on media and eyewitness accounts, primary sources.

You and the media both regurgitate the press handouts of the occupation authorities and their quislings and call it "primary sources".

I repeat: you have absolutely no way of knowing anything about the political character of the resistance movements in Iraq&#33;

I am not even going to dignify that with a response, other than to say you find where I said that.

It logically follows from what you did say. If Iraqi resistance turns into a bloody war of attrition--which you think would be bad--then it would be "better" if the Iraqis would simply quietly submit to their new masters. "Good advice" from the Colonel Blimp of Che-Lives. (&#33;)

As for dignity, I&#39;m amazed that someone who&#39;s spent most of the past year on his knees before Bush & Blair would even dare to utter the word.

Call me as many silly names as you wish. I will continue to name you for what you are: a servile lackey of U.S. and British imperialism&#33;

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___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW&#33;
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Ian Rocks+Aug 23 2003, 10:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ian Rocks @ Aug 23 2003, 10:16 AM)
[email protected] 23 2003, 03:01 AM
As for press handouts, if you think that the BBC are undercontrol of the government then i suggest you review the recent news involving Dr David Kelly, before you make ignorant attacks.

>ahem< Who is ignorant?&#33; Are you aware that the BBC has been one of the biggest contributors to Tony Blair&#39;s party over the last few years?

An independent group called Media Tenor did a survey and found that the BBC allowed less opposing views than American networks. Look it up&#33;&#33; [/b]
I have just finished reading a report on the survey, and its about the BBC&#39;s reporting on Isreil, it has jack shit to do with Blair. It did breifly mention the election and the number of party political broadcasts, but that was it.

That is also to assume that American media ever even mentions Britian, which is doubtful. It also doesnt change the fact that currently the BBC is on the verge of bringing the Blair cabinet to its knee&#39;s, and been largely against the the war and its motives.

Also if that is the case then why have the enemys of the BBC been making a huge kick and fuss about the BBC&#39;s lack of impartiality? Im sure ITV and BSKYB would love to publisise that, but they dont.

[Cassius Clay]

Glory to the Iraqi resistance and death to occupiers&#33;

The &#39;myth&#39; that the resistance is coming from &#39;Saddam Loyalists&#39; is a strong one. But it can be beat with some common sense. Just a few hours ago in the Shia dominated South British soliders have been killed, the Shia dominated region. The Iraqi people are not stupid, they remember what Saddam did to them and they also remember that Saddam and the Bathists were put in power by the Americans. Moroever the relationship between the CIA/U&#036; and the Bathists has been a strong one, as such the morally bankcrupt opportunists in the high ranks (commanders of Republican Guards and the like) of the regime merely sold out Saddam. The same policemen who were &#39;cutthroats&#39; and &#39;butchers&#39; are now representing &#39;freedom&#39; and &#39;law and order&#39;. I belive and I hope I&#39;m proved right that once Saddam is announced dead or captured then the Iraqi people will flock to the resistance. Since the only reason their queite now is because they look to the occupier as protecting them against a comeback of Saddam.

But as the occupation increases in length and brutality a average Iraqi declares &#39;One day of the Americans was worse than a hundred days of Saddam&#39;. Moreover here is a resistance fighters view of Saddam.

&#39;&#39;Ahmed denies having served in Saddam&#39;s military or any of the security
agencies. He offers a peculiar account of how he avoided military
service: "I put lots of tea leaves in cold water and gulped it down so
that it filled my lungs. The tea showed up as spots in my lungs and,
after I paid the doctor some money, I was rejected on health grounds."

Asked why he has joined the resistance after going to such lengths to
avoid doing time for Saddam, Ahmed declares: "Saddam was a loser. His
wars were useless and he made enemies of our Muslim neighbours."

Another resistance fighter who is only 19 says in a another article/interview said he was pissed at the Saddam regime because he had to bribe his way to get on the national athlectic team.

&#39;Saddam wasn&#39;t he CNN or CIA whatever you call it&#39; A Iraqi.