The US prison system is Barberic and discusting

[RGacky3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvqj8hgxRfg&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPUsdxMBEOQ&feature=channel

Just 2 of many many many barbaric and shameful aspects of the American prison system.

The American prison system can only be described as a massiave crime against humantiy, Americans should be ashamed of their prison system.

Yet American politicians call America a "christian country," that should make real christians sick to the stomach.

[Havet]

Yet American politicians call America a "christian country," that should make real christians sick to the stomach.

(most) Christians are disgusting

[Milk Sheikh]

(most) Christians are disgusting

Christianity is a peaceful religion because the founder himself happened to be peaceful, like Buddha. So the blame lies on the followers.

[ComradeMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvqj8hgxRfg&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPUsdxMBEOQ&feature=channel

Just 2 of many many many barbaric and shameful aspects of the American prison system.

The American prison system can only be described as a massiave crime against humantiy, Americans should be ashamed of their prison system.

Yet American politicians call America a "christian country," that should make real christians sick to the stomach.


And for your next shocking revelation that we didn't all know already....?

[Amphictyonis]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/structural-unemployment-t145301/index.html?t=145301

[danyboy27]

Another blatant exemple that a rough penal system is not a good deterrent against crime.

Really, prison should only exist to protect the population from the criminals and the criminals from the population.

[Havet]

Christianity is a peaceful religion because the founder himself happened to be peaceful, like Buddha. So the blame lies on the followers.

ha ha, no.

The Bible (you know, the friggin' "word of god")has been used for centuries by Christians as a weapon of control. To read it literally is to believe in a three-tiered universe, to condone slavery, to treat women as inferior creatures, to believe that sickness is caused by God's punishment and that mental disease and epilepsy are caused by demonic possession.

The same goes for every other religions (except for Pastafarism)

A religion cannot exist without followers

[RGacky3]

And for your next shocking revelation that we didn't all know already....?

Sounds like someones got a bug up their ass.

[RGacky3]

Forget I said the christian thing :P, this was supposed to be about the prisons

[Revolution starts with U]

And for your next shocking revelation that we didn't all know already....?

And what if someone said that about your East Timor or Bushman posts?

[Milk Sheikh]

ha ha, no.

The Bible (you know, the friggin' "word of god")has been used for centuries by Christians as a weapon of control. To read it literally is to believe in a three-tiered universe, to condone slavery, to treat women as inferior creatures, to believe that sickness is caused by God's punishment and that mental disease and epilepsy are caused by demonic possession.

The same goes for every other religions (except for Pastafarism)

A religion cannot exist without followers


Not all followers are bad; in fact, in every religion, there are very few extremists. The early Christians, including the apostles, were communists and were living simple, beautiful lives.

[Havet]

Not all followers are bad; in fact, in every religion, there are very few extremists. The early Christians, including the apostles, were communists and were living simple, beautiful lives.

Oh, you mean these guys?

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9124/agorahypatiaofalexandri.jpg

Taken from this (http://www.examiner.com/movie-in-san-francisco/agora-an-historically-justified-damnation-of-early-christians) movie

[The Red Next Door]

ha ha, no.

The Bible (you know, the friggin' "word of god")has been used for centuries by Christians as a weapon of control. To read it literally is to believe in a three-tiered universe, to condone slavery, to treat women as inferior creatures, to believe that sickness is caused by God's punishment and that mental disease and epilepsy are caused by demonic possession.

The same goes for every other religions (except for Pastafarism)

A religion cannot exist without followers


Pure Christanity is not bad and you should not take the bible literary; it not the written word of god; it the written word of bigots and dumb stupid white people. anybody can put shit in the bible; they can say that god said it okay for one to have sex with a 6 year old girl.

[The Red Next Door]

Tell us something we do not know; of course, duh. We have a barberic prison system.

[Ele'ill]

I'm not sure why people are posting with 'tell us something we don't know' on a forum for discussing social and political problems that are hidden, entrenched and go unnoticed. I mean would you all go into the theory section and say the same thing in any one of the threads there?

[Havet]

Pure Christanity is not bad and you should not take the bible literary;

So what's the point of the bible if you don't have to believe it?

A good bed time story?

Sorry, I prefer reading Cheerios cereal box ingredients for that

[Bud Struggle]

Yet American politicians call America a "christian country," that should make real christians sick to the stomach.

America a "Christian country?" Not likely.

As to the system--I can't speak foir the system. But the state prison system in Florida (as opposed to the federal penetentery system and the county jail system) is harsh difficult and largely fair.

I teach enterpreneaurship at the local prison--and I can't say the inmates are ill treated. The food is OK (I eat it) the guards aren't mean or unfair, but the prisoners do KNOW that are prisoners.

I suggest if you really want to know what prisonsw are like were you live--do the "Christian" thing and voulenteer at one instead of just showing videos.

[Sir Comradical]

Yet American politicians call America a "christian country," that should make real christians sick to the stomach.

There is no 'real christianity', christianity is as christianity does, which is a very wide spectrum ranging from the Westboro baptist line of "god hates fags" through to people like Pastor Ted Noffs here in Australia who said "I am a Christian, I am a Catholic, I am a Protestant, I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am a Jew, I am a Sikh, I am an Agnostic and I am an Atheist. But first and foremost I am a human being and no one in this world is a stranger to me". So yeah, no such thing as 'real christianity'.

As for the American prison system, I've found it funny how anti-communists blame the gulags on communism but will not blame America's prison economy on the capitalist system even though the link is infinitely more obvious.

[Ele'ill]

America a "Christian country?" Not likely.

As to the system--I can't speak foir the system. But the state prison system in Florida (as opposed to the federal penetentery system and the county jail system) is harsh difficult and largely fair.

I teach enterpreneaurship at the local prison--and I can't say the inmates are ill treated. The food is OK (I eat it) the guards aren't mean or unfair, but the prisoners do KNOW that are prisoners.

I suggest if you really want to know what prisonsw are like were you live--do the "Christian" thing and voulenteer at one instead of just showing videos.

I'll do the 'christian' thing without a god and work towards prison abolition. (http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/abolition_alternatives.html)

I guess I'll hold off to see where this thread goes- what is everyone's opinion on prison abolition?






Edit- I get all the good mail my roommate gets nothing! :lol:

[#FF0000]

I'm just going to split the off-topic/boderline stuff. Keep it on topic and no snipes at others please.

[La Comédie Noire]

There was this girl I really liked, but then she became a corrections officer. I don't think I ever weeped inside so much in my life. :(

But I'd like to see prisons abolished and the morally reprehensible justice system that goes with it, which is really just a racket for making money. I had the misfortune of going through the justice system and not only was it dehumanizing it was expensive, arbitrary, and down right brutal.

Especially when I met with our district attorney, she was a complete asshole it was like she was trying to sell me some insurance really aggressively.

"Well you could go in there without a lawyer, but then don't be surprised if you get a year or more in prison" Just in a really haughty, I'm really powerful disgusting tone.

I went there for a fight in school btw that only lasted 30 seconds. More zero tolerance bullshit in action. Honestly I don't know how these people can sleep at night.

Oh and to top it all off, one day I left early because it seemed like they were done. They immediately issued a warrant for my arrest and then made me pay a $50.00 fine when I returned of my own free will.

Okay rant over.

[MarxSchmarx]

I'll do the 'christian' thing without a god and work towards prison abolition. (http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/abolition_alternatives.html)

I guess I'll hold off to see where this thread goes- what is everyone's opinion on prison abolition?


Like many essentially single-issue campaigns, in general it's a perspective that could help inform us about how a stateless/classless society can work. It's an idea worth exploring.

Since the thread is about the system in the US, it is a real headache of a movement that is going nowhere. Especially because prison is so deeply caught up with the issues of race. Perhaps it will have some resonance among certain segments of the population that suffer disproportionately from high incarceration, but it offers those without much ties to prison nothing except appearing to make their lives worse.

Moreover, I think that it is hard to link up this struggle, with its heavy implications for a post-capitalist order, with the broader left. These folks have enough on their plate without being asked to abolish capitalism as well. At this stage, I think many on the left should be educated about it, and we should seek to develop a consensus about the idea. injecting an analysis of why prison abolition cannot happen under capitalism will be necessary if we want to see it as a necessary organization.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Anyone who thinks that Christianity is as much of a pressing problem for workers in the US as US prisons are, needs to get their priorities straight before they talk to one other person IRL as a representative of the left:lol:. Going into a working class black or Latino community and telling people, yeah prisons suck, but the worse problem is Christianity is a sure way to set back the left another 20 years.


I teach enterpreneaurship at the local prison--and I can't say the inmates are ill treated. The food is OK (I eat it) the guards aren't mean or unfair, but the prisoners do KNOW that are prisoners.

I suggest if you really want to know what prisons are like were you live--do the "Christian" thing and volunteer at one instead of just showing videos.

I've been to Death Row in California for my activism and another Prison for personal visits with an inmate (also known as a good friend of mine and a fantastic human being).

Food: While the food is OK (but that's mostly only if you compare it to jail food - which I have had the misfortune to try first hand) imagine it being your only option. If the food was so great, then the private vendors would not be able to come by and sell shitty pizza and chicken at 5 times the normal price to family members in the visiting areas. Well maybe they could try but the inmates would not beg their friends and relatives to buy it for them.

Treatment: Most of the time the treatment is not like in a movie where guards act like Caligula or the captains of a pirate ship or something. But there have been many well-documented cases of abuse by guards and I have heard many first hand accounts, but for the most part, physical abuse seems to be reserved for special occasions or for particular inmates. My friend is not in the highest security blocs either, so treatment might vary within prisons.

However, the psychological abuse and mind-games is very apparent and even directed at visitors like little old me. Collective punishment is the norm in California Prisons and is based on location (prison or cell bloc) and most of the time on race. The last time I visited, the prison was punishing a Latino gang with notes on the windows of main office: "No Mexican Citizens Are Allowed Visitation Until further notice". Now, if the problem was that a Mexican gang was rioting and the prison was afraid that visitors were sneaking in weapons, why punish the entire prison population when only a section are in the gang? Further, visitors have all sorts of arbitrary rules and regulations that you are not informed of until you show up. So people from Mexico had to plan this big trip to the states, get all the paperwork done, jump through all the hoops, spend all that money to visit their loved one... only to show up and be told through a hand-written sign made on notebook paper: "you can't come and we don't know when you will be able to". That's psychological punishment - the prisons do everything they can to make visiting unpleasant and difficult for working class people and while I don't have any proof of it, I think the reason is that they want to isolate the prisoners from the outside as much as they can. Everytime I've gone to visit (which must be like a dozen times) it's a 2 hour drive (6-7 hour drive for his family who live in southern California) and then I show up and it turns out that I'm not allowed to wear some other article of clothing... if I'm lucky I can get some Grey sweats that they loan you if you are not wearing the proper colors of the week. As a visitor the guards try and intimidate you if you are male and make creepy small-talk with you if you are female. I've had one guard insinuate that I was there to do something illegal and another guard berate me for not knowing the absurd and constantly changing protocols and he said: "You need to know this stuff for when all your other friends get arrested".

While the guards are not going around beating people up right and left at all times, there is widespread corruption and racketeering by the guards - often working with the gangs. Inside it is pretty open and the way my friends describe it, it sounds just like the widespread police corruption from the 30s and 40s when cops controlled things like prostitution and used pay-off systems for other organized criminal activities. Smuggling cell phones seems to be a big thing right now. (Remember that so that in 2 years or 3 moths or whatever when you read in the papers in a small article on page 8 about a few "bad apple" guards being caught in a corruption ring:lol:).

The worst thing about US prisons is that my friend is now on his 7th year for a horrible accident that he handled poorly (he was right out of college) but is by no means the result of an intentional act or ongoing behaviors, it was a freak thing that probably never would have happened again. It was a hit and run (the person he hit lived but was injured badly), he didn't call to report the accident and he wasn't sure what had even happened because he was scared. It's terrible and he regrets it, but it doesn't matter, the prisons system isn't about justice.

Then I read this:

http://blogs.forbes.com/halahtouryalai/2010/11/08/wall-street-broker-escapes-felony-hit-and-run-charge/

Martin Joel Erzinger, a billion dollar Morgan Stanley Smith Barney financial advisor, managed to dodge felony charges on a hit-and-run incident that left his victim with spinal cord injuries and bleeding from the brain (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327323/Morgan-Stanley-financial-adviser-escapes-felony-charges-hit-run-jeopardise-job.html#ixzz14hUgRaPa).


Steven Milo, a NYC physician, was allegedly hit by Erzinger’s black 2010 Mercedes while biking near Denver.Instead of stopping, Erzinger drove away and stopped in a Pizza Hut parking lot where he called the Mercedes auto assistance service to report damage to his car but did not ask for police, court documents say.
The judge said that the felony conviction would mean that the financial adviser might loose his job. His reasoning was that if he lost his job he would not be able to pay the restitution for the victim.

That's American Justice:rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

But the state prison system in Florida (as opposed to the federal penetentery system and the county jail system) is harsh difficult and largely fair.


I don't know about the Florida system, but if its anything like the California system, where they throw you in solidary confinement for the slightest infraction for months, no its not fair, or if they gie you 20 years for drug dealing, no its not fair.

You do realize that the US system is the largest and harshest in the world right? More people are in US prisons than China, numerically.

[RGacky3]

BTW Bud, it is comendable that you volunteer at the prisons, but there are much much more useful things to do to help out those victimized by the prison system.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't know about the Florida system, but if its anything like the California system, where they throw you in solidary confinement for the slightest infraction for months, no its not fair, or if they gie you 20 years for drug dealing, no its not fair.

There I agree with you. It's all about drugs. I'd say that maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the population is in there for drug related crime of one sort or another--buying, selling, stealing for drugs, killing for drugs but mostly posession.

Now I agree THAT part is off the wall. People get YEARS for posessing a small (non sale amounts) of one or another illegal substance. That area needs to be fixed. Robbery, murder, things like that are bad for society--and those kinds of crimes should be punished. On the other hand if some asshole kids is doing something to get him a little high--it doesn't need to be punished by five years of hard time.

[Ele'ill]

What do you think the steps to decriminalize drugs would be- as in right now if possible? (within the context of what you're saying here, please no more drug threads)

[Lt. Ferret]

BTW Bud, it is comendable that you volunteer at the prisons, but there are much much more useful things to do to help out those victimized by the prison system.


you know i have gathered from your posts that you dont do shit for anyone, nor do you think that anything will change anything. what SHOULD he be doing, organizing some sort of prison union? I hear the Aryan Nations are way ahead of him in that field.

[Ele'ill]

you know i have gathered from your posts that you dont do shit for anyone, nor do you think that anything will change anything. what SHOULD he be doing, organizing some sort of prison union? I hear the Aryan Nations are way ahead of him in that field.

Let's not turn this thread into what it was yesterday.

Bud barely talks about the prison stuff he does- he's mentioned it once before. I don't think he's under the illusion that he is solving a problem outright but he is contributing to a solution of sorts- I'd rather not get into the semantics of it right now.

[Lt. Ferret]

Roger, I dont think anyone of us in particular is revolutionizing how the prison industrial complex is being maintained, but man, even one minute of one day to help a prisoner is better than nothing. Me and my wife write letters to prisoners in the punk magazines we get, mostly from MRR. it isn't a lot, but a letter can really give someone hope. I remember in basic training theo nly thing i had to look forward to was letters.

I really would rather write a letter than do nothing just because writing letters doesn't end the oppression.

[Bud Struggle]

LBud barely talks about the prison stuff he does- he's mentioned it once before. I don't think he's under the illusion that he is solving a problem outright but he is contributing to a solution of sorts- I'd rather not get into the semantics of it right now.

I talk about stuff I do when the topic come us.

Anyway--here's part 2 of the problem (Part 1 is drugs.)

There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Some are made that way by taking drugs (I guess) or if they aleady had a problem is made worse by taking drugs.

My personal Inmate is one of them (my helper--arranges chairs, collects papers, etc.) He's the nicest guy in the world--he's in prison for murder, he killed a clerk at 7-11 while robbing it to buy drugs.

He's the nicest guy, but when he gets pissed off he goes crazy and he'll kill anything or anybody. He's a lifer and really can't function in te real world.

Now does he belong in PRISON? I'm not sure--but he'll kill if the conditions are right very easily if he's on the outside.

Society needs to be protected from him. Can he be cured? I haven't a clue, but he can't be loose--for society's protection.

A lot of people in prison are (well I wouldn't day bad) but could cause a lot of harm. The very harsh rules in prison keep these people off guard and out of the way.

[ComradeMan]

It's a vicious circle that cannot be broken unless there is a major social change.

System-creates-poverty-creates social problems-creates criminals-creates prisoners-creates prisons-perpetuates crime.

Now- in prison we have two types of people for the most part

1) People whose fundamental crime is poverty.

2) People who are mentally ill.

1) Are victims of the system that locks them up and 2) needed help from the system a long, long time ago.

However- what do you do- with the situation as it is- not the theory, with some evil person who has kidnapped, raped and murdered a child? Or a serial killer--- what do you do with them? That is the problem.

[Bud Struggle]

It's a vicious circle that cannot be broken unless there is a major social change.

System-creates-poverty-creates social problems-creates criminals-creates prisoners-creates prisons-perpetuates crime.

Now- in prison we have two types of people for the most part

1) People whose fundamental crime is poverty.

2) People who are mentally ill.

1) Are victims of the system that locks them up and 2) needed help from the system a long, long time ago.

However- what do you do- with the situation as it is- not the theory, with some evil person who has kidnapped, raped and murdered a child? Or a serial killer--- what do you do with them? That is the problem.

I would say the problem is

1. drugs

2. mentally ill.

Oddly enough it seem the social welfare system isn't that bad that people need to steal to eat. If they want consumer goods they can't afford--that's isn't something I think is a problem, and that's what jails are for. If people are in prison for crimes of passion or just plain being evil--that again is what jails are for. I have no problem there.

[Ele'ill]

There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Some are made that way by taking drugs (I guess) or if they aleady had a problem is made worse by taking drugs.

Why do people take drugs?

I think it's because they are bored- perhaps because they have no way to engage in activities that they want to and are good at - and because they have never been exposed to an educational system that wasn't simply there to sort winners from 'losers'.

Society isn't set up to and hasn't offered anything of worth to them.





He's the nicest guy, but when he gets pissed off he goes crazy and he'll kill anything or anybody. He's a lifer and really can't function in te real world.

I think that it's quite often the real world that isn't functioning correctly and the reactions to it are extreme but explainable.


Now does he belong in PRISON? I'm not sure--but he'll kill if the conditions are right very easily if he's on the outside.

I look at this as the conditions were wrong on the outside. I'm not playing words here either.



Society needs to be protected from him. Can he be cured? I haven't a clue, but he can't be loose--for society's protection.

Looking at this from a post revolution perspective it raises an interesting question as to how we are all going to handle the old world prisoners. I think we can come to an agreement on this in this thread (this is actually exciting to think about)



A lot of people in prison are (well I wouldn't day bad) but could cause a lot of harm. The very harsh rules in prison keep these people off guard and out of the way.


The systems in place right now are fucking people up. There are a lot of 'sociopaths' in prison like the person you mentioned earlier that could have been helped out way in advance with an adequate mental health system, educational system and actual prison rehabilitation as I'm guessing he's been in and out of the pen since he was younger.

[Bud Struggle]

Why do people take drugs?

I think it's because they are bored- perhaps because they have no way to engage in activities that they want to and are good at - and because they have never been exposed to an educational system that wasn't simply there to sort winners from 'losers'. I don't care why people take drugs. People have to be in charge of thie own lives. I could give a flying hoot if they are bored. As far as the educational system goes--my kids are in public education. And it's pretty damn good--if it wasn't they'd be in a private school.


Society isn't set up to and hasn't offered anything of worth to them. They have to make something of their own lives. It's not my job as a member of society to make sure everyone is happy--everyone has to look out for themselvesw in that respect--AND play by the rules.


I think that it's quite often the real world that isn't functioning correctly and the reactions to it are extreme but explainable. Maybe--but they'd rape and murder you for $20. Best they are off of the streets.


I look at this as the conditions were wrong on the outside. I'm not playing words here either. Conditions are just fine for 95% of the population--it's these people that need to change.


Looking at this from a post revolution perspective it raises an interesting question as to how we are all going to handle the old world prisoners. I think we can come to an agreement on this in this thread (this is actually exciting to think about) No agreement from me. The USSR, China, Cuba all had (have) prisons. Read Gorky Park--there are still "bad guys" no matter what the economic system.


The systems in place right now are fucking people up. Your opinion. I think there's problems with the system--but it's no reason to muder or steal.


There are a lot of 'sociopaths' in prison like the person you mentioned earlier that could have been helped out way in advance with an adequate mental health system, educational system and actual prison rehabilitation as I'm guessing he's been in and out of the pen since he was younger. Well maybe--but right now they should be kept off of the streets--and after you rehabalitate the--if you want them released in your community, fine with me.

Not in mine.

[Ele'ill]

I don't care why people take drugs.

This is part of the problem right here. You've established that drugs are a contributor but you don't care why people use them. Prisons are being used as a systemic throw rug for 'demographics' and individuals that have not been born into a world of choice but are born into a monoculture revolving around winners, losers and profit.



People have to be in charge of thie own lives.People are NOT in charge of their own lives and are subjected to systems that they simply do not fit into as a healthy (or unhealthy) person.



As far as the educational system goes--my kids are in public education. And it's pretty damn good--if it wasn't they'd be in a private school.Are you saying the public education system in America is healthy and beneficial?



They have to make something of their own lives.They do- they don't have the money for scotch so they use street drugs and the public education system sucks so badly that they are left as ghosts in a one system fits all world- for most of their immediate problems they are better off hustling.





It's not my job as a member of society to make sure everyone is happy--We're not talking about like bad day 'happy' or 'sad'.


everyone has to look out for themselvesw in that respect--AND play by the rules.Education.




Maybe--but they'd rape and murder you for $20. Best they are off of the streets.I'd rather start by making the streets an acceptable place for them to exist, that way they don't end up back into the same environment with the same options with the same solutions to their immediate problems.


Conditions are just fine for 95% of the population--it's these people that need to change.I know you don't believe this. The prison population fluctuates as people come and go. Where are they coming and going from? What kind of background? How many people haven't gotten caught?

I think there's about 2 million people in the US prison system.




No agreement from me. The USSR, China, Cuba all had (have) prisons. Read Gorky Park--there are still "bad guys" no matter what the economic system.For this discussion I'm not arguing in favor of prison abolition (verbatim).


Your opinion. I think there's problems with the system--but it's no reason to muder or steal.So people do it for fun?

[RGacky3]

Now I agree THAT part is off the wall. People get YEARS for posessing a small (non sale amounts) of one or another illegal substance. That area needs to be fixed. Robbery, murder, things like that are bad for society--and those kinds of crimes should be punished. On the other hand if some asshole kids is doing something to get him a little high--it doesn't need to be punished by five years of hard time.

Of coarse, I think drugs should'nt be punished at all.

When it comes to Robbery and Murder and everything else, of coarse you gotta do something, but I think the approach should be how can we minimize it, and protect society while at the same time being humane, not how can we punish people.

The idea that prisoners, once they are prisoners are basically not human, they have no rights, and anything can be done to them, is an idea that has to be changed.


you know i have gathered from your posts that you dont do shit for anyone, nor do you think that anything will change anything. what SHOULD he be doing, organizing some sort of prison union? I hear the Aryan Nations are way ahead of him in that field.

If your trying to judge what I, or anyone else does, in their personal like from their posts on an internet forum, then your gonna end up with wildly wrong impressions, so don't.

It was supposed to be teasing the idea of euntrepreiorship, but it come off as kind of douchy, so I apologise.


There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Some are made that way by taking drugs (I guess) or if they aleady had a problem is made worse by taking drugs.

My personal Inmate is one of them (my helper--arranges chairs, collects papers, etc.) He's the nicest guy in the world--he's in prison for murder, he killed a clerk at 7-11 while robbing it to buy drugs.

He's the nicest guy, but when he gets pissed off he goes crazy and he'll kill anything or anybody. He's a lifer and really can't function in te real world.

Now does he belong in PRISON? I'm not sure--but he'll kill if the conditions are right very easily if he's on the outside.

Society needs to be protected from him. Can he be cured? I haven't a clue, but he can't be loose--for society's protection.

A lot of people in prison are (well I wouldn't day bad) but could cause a lot of harm. The very harsh rules in prison keep these people off guard and out of the way.

PEople like that need help, they should be in a mental hospital, not just locked up, thats the humane way to deal with it. Just because your crazy does'nt mean your not a human.


They have to make something of their own lives. It's not my job as a member of society to make sure everyone is happy--everyone has to look out for themselvesw in that respect--AND play by the rules.


See Bud thats the problem, for many people in society the "rules" are fixed to their disadvantage, vast vast disadvantage, to the point where the Logical reasonable thing to do, is not play by the rules, the rules need to be changed.

By rules I also mean conditions and circumstances of society.


Your opinion. I think there's problems with the system--but it's no reason to muder or steal.


Its not about making excuses for criminals, or defending them, its about seeing how to reduce crime and make society better.

Many criminals grow up in enviroments that shape them to be criminals, or where they are more likely to become criminals, poverty, desperation, everything that comes out of that, its not an excuse its a fact, if you want to reduce crime and make society better, you have to deal with that stuff.

[Bud Struggle]

This is part of the problem right here. You've established that drugs are a contributor but you don't care why people use them. Prisons are being used as a systemic throw rug for 'demographics' and individuals that have not been born into a world of choice but are born into a monoculture revolving around winners, losers and profit. yea, that's the real world. :(


People are NOT in charge of their own lives and are subjected to systems that they simply do not fit into as a healthy (or unhealthy) person. Preaching.



Are you saying the public education system in America is healthy and beneficial? My kids are in that system. I see my daughter's HS. Some people take FULL ADVANTAGE of a great system--and some slide by. (As a truly Proletarian Bourgeoise) my kids go to a school that is 45% Black, and located in a "bade part of town" an take advantage of the IB, and AE courses and does really well. We have dids here from Mainland China that go to her school just for the academics. And some of the locals just don't appreciate it.

They are there and they are paid for. What more can a taxpayer do?



They do- they don't have the money for scotch so they use street drugs and the public education system sucks so badly that they are left as ghosts in a one system fits all world- for most of their immediate problems they are better off hustling. It's NOT MY PROBLEM what peoples personal needs are. They have a life and they choose how to live it.


I'd rather start by making the streets an acceptable place for them to exist, that way they don't end up back into the same environment with the same options with the same solutions to their immediate problems. Lovely thought--I don't know what it means.


I think there's about 2 million people in the US prison system. And now get rid of the "posession" crimes--and that will take care 1.3 million people--and then we just have the bad ass criminals the NEED to be in prison.


For this discussion I'm not arguing in favor of prison abolition (verbatim). fine.


So people do it for fun? They do if for drugs and because they want to be something they are not.

Get rid of the small change drug crimes--and the system works just fine.


Problem solved.

[Ele'ill]

yea, that's the real world. :(

Not that long ago the real world involved slaves, little if any women's rights, genocide being a desirable thing. Saying 'that's how it is' doesn't make any sense at all.


Preaching.

No it isn't. If you're going to reply with stuff like that at least explain why you feel that way.





My kids are in that system. I see my daughter's HS. Some people take FULL ADVANTAGE of a great system--and some slide by. (As a truly Proletarian Bourgeoise) my kids go to a school that is 45% Black, and located in a "bade part of town" an take advantage of the IB, and AE courses and does really well. We have dids here from Mainland China that go to her school just for the academics. And some of the locals just don't appreciate it.

It sounds like your kids have a lot of support- I'm glad for that. Now back to the main topic which is non-anecdotal in nature.









It's NOT MY PROBLEM what peoples personal needs are. They have a life and they choose how to live it.


If we were at an ice rink for your first hockey game and I gave you a stick and gloves- no skates- and expected you to skate, would that be fair?




Lovely thought--I don't know what it means.

The real world is sending them to prison because the real world isn't fair or equal. Fix the real world.


And now get rid of the "posession" crimes--and that will take care 1.3 million people--and then we just have the bad ass criminals the NEED to be in prison.

That isn't good enough- why are the 'bad ass criminals' in prison? What can be changed on the outside that can help people not end up as 'bad ass criminals'.



They do if for drugs

Some do it for drugs but why are drugs so important to them?




and because they want to be something they are not.

Yes, able to eat and pay rent.






Problem solved.[/QUOTE]

[Bud Struggle]

Gack and Mari3L I don't thin you need me to spend an hour posting your quotes here.

So yea, lets see where we agree. Possession (for personal use) crimes should be abolished for the most part. (Maybe there should be some exceptions--but I don't know what they would be.)

REAL criminals should be put away in prison. And people with mental problems should be treated. Most of that is easy enough if everything was simple--but lots of criminals fall into askew categories. A little of everything.

Anyway, I have no problem with people with troubles being treated --but more important to me is that regular people be kept safe.

There we agree.

Blaming society and Capitalism--it's a waste of time for now.

[ComradeMan]

The idiots who stole my scooter--- they did it for drug money, now I have to walk around in the rain...

[Bud Struggle]

The idiots who stole my scooter--- they did it for drug money, now I have to walk around in the rain...

http://www.pictureshowman.com/images/articles/Articles_graphics/Singing_in_Rain/Singing_3.jpg

[ComradeMan]

There's a death penalty group on RevLeft.

They support the death penalty for harming children- do you agree with that?

I don't support the death penalty--- but I'll be honest, when it comes to harming children... I'm not sure anymore- I think I would support it.

[Ele'ill]

Gack and Mari3L I don't thin you need me to spend an hour posting your quotes here.

:lol:

Yeah, I don't need you to but would be happy to read what you have to say. I'm a bit distracted right now doing other things and was thinking that I really hope this doesn't take off in which case I'd have to see it through right now because obsessive compulsive forum posting tendencies are fun.


So yea, lets see where we agree. Possession (for personal use) crimes should be abolished for the most part. (Maybe there should be some exceptions--but I don't know what they would be.)It would be interesting to see what would happen.



REAL criminals should be put away in prison. And people with mental problems should be treated. Most of that is easy enough if everything was simple--but lots of criminals fall into askew categories. A little of everything.I believe that a lot of these people can be treated by abolishing capitalism in which case they'd never engage in many of the activities that get them sent to prison.


Anyway, I have no problem with people with troubles being treated --but more important to me is that regular people be kept safe. So you're talking about the people that are born with mental illnesses and not the ones who have a latent mental illness triggered from stress caused by wealth imbalance and inadequate community services.



There we agree.Not quite but better than usual.


Blaming society and Capitalism--it's a waste of time for now.No, blaming the root cause is perfectly valid and rather important.

[RGacky3]

Blaming society and Capitalism--it's a waste of time for now.

It does'nt take building it, it takes stopping the destruction of it by Capitalism, or at least, for a start, stopping as much destruction of it by capitalism as possible.

[Bud Struggle]

Then Mari3L since you are looking for a career for when you "grow up" I suggest you go into social work.

I have no problem with people being helped--help them.

But as long as they are a danger to society--I don't want them on the street.

[Ele'ill]

Then Mari3L since you are looking for a career for when you "grow up" I suggest you go into social work.

I disagree with this statement because I am grown up. Are you suggesting that people who don't have a set career are not grown up? Are they children?


I have no problem with people being helped--help them.

I have a problem with pandemic poverty.


But as long as they are a danger to society--I don't want them on the street.

Society has become a danger to people.

[ComradeMan]

What about the death penalty for those who harm children?

[Bud Struggle]

I disagree with this statement because I am grown up. Are you suggesting that people who don't have a set career are not grown up? Are they children? OK, if you think you are grown up--then I guess you are.

But being able to support yourself comfortable is a a CLUE to being grown up.


I have a problem with pandemic poverty. Me too. Have you moved to Zimbabwe lately?


Society has become a danger to people. There were disagree. While I don't think it's perfect--it's pretty damn good if you try a bit.

[Bud Struggle]

What about the death penalty for those who harm children?

Nope for me. I'm against all killing of fellow human beings. No death pealty, no euthenasia, no abortion.

All human life, (potential, disliked, usless, disguared,) is sacred.

[Ele'ill]

What about the death penalty for those who harm children?

I assume by 'harm children' we're mainly discussing pedophiles.

I would need a plethora of psychological data to make an education decision on where I stand. It isn't a subject that I can say I've spent a lot of time thinking about (collecting data on my own and such)

I have heard that rehabilitation doesn't work- statistically speaking- in regards to pedophiles.

I am unsure if pedophiles act on an impulse that they can not control which would be more along the lines of them being mentally ill and akin to someone having troubling thoughts or voices enter into their mind.

It would seem by similar logic that if pedophiles should get the death penalty for a mental illness that essentially forces them into a line of thought that it's ok to sexually engage a child then those who are mentally ill and plan harmful actions against people or community should also get the death penalty.

I am not agreeing with that- and my current stance is that I am opposed to the death penalty.

[ComradeMan]

Nope for me. I'm against all killing of fellow human beings. No death pealty, no euthenasia, no abortion.

All human life, (potential, disliked, usless, disguared,) is sacred.

Well, I tend to agree- but when it comes to harming innocent children, something really evil and perverted--- I'm sorry- children are the future of humanity and if you deliberately harm them then you are de facto an enemy of the people, as well as an evil bastard.

[Ele'ill]

OK, if you think you are grown up--then I guess you are.

But being able to support yourself comfortable is a a CLUE to being grown up.

Bud, this is all kinds of offensive because it's ridiculous and no where even close to a half-truth.

I mean come on... really?



Me too. Have you moved to Zimbabwe lately?

LOL what?


There were disagree. While I don't think it's perfect--it's pretty damn good if you try a bit.

I don't have to even give a detailed reply to this because you know it isn't true.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, I tend to agree- but when it comes to harming innocent children, something really evil and perverted--- I'm sorry- children are the future of humanity and if you deliberately harm them then you are de facto an enemy of the people, as well as an evil bastard.

I know they are evil. I have no problem with that.

But killing is evil too. And I rather take these people and put them in the fucked up American prisons than kill them.

It prison is worse-- so much the better.

[Bud Struggle]

Bud, this is all kinds of offensive because it's ridiculous and no where even close to a half-truth.

I mean come on... really? I think it's true. My kids are being taught to support themselves--SERIOUSLY. They know how to manage their finances and save and earn to do what they want. I'll surely provide for them--but they have to learn and KNOW how to provide for themselves. They have to get skills and knowledge so that they can master any envoirnment they are thrown into.

THAT is being grown up--not being dependant on anyone or any society.


I don't have to even give a detailed reply to this because you know it isn't true. Difference of opinion. Society is quite good if you give it a try.

[ComradeMan]

I assume by 'harm children' we're mainly discussing pedophiles.

I would need a plethora of psychological data to make an education decision on where I stand. It isn't a subject that I can say I've spent a lot of time thinking about (collecting data on my own and such)

I have heard that rehabilitation doesn't work- statistically speaking- in regards to pedophiles.

I am unsure if pedophiles act on an impulse that they can not control which would be more along the lines of them being mentally ill and akin to someone having troubling thoughts or voices enter into their mind.

It would seem by similar logic that if pedophiles should get the death penalty for a mental illness that essentially forces them into a line of thought that it's ok to sexually engage a child then those who are mentally ill and plan harmful actions against people or community should also get the death penalty.

I am not agreeing with that- and my current stance is that I am opposed to the death penalty.

Mari3L- that's only the tip of the iceberg-

There are child traffickers, evil pornography circuits run by criminal gangs and all sorts of things. There are those who have created child soldiers too- I would include them.

I repeat, I am not generally in favour of the death penalty- but when it comes to hurting children, I find it hard to back up my own stance if you know what I mean.

Nevertheless, I see Pallingenesis has started a pro- Death Penalty group for this issue.

[Ele'ill]

Mari3L- that's only the tip of the iceberg-

There are child traffickers, evil pornography circuits run by criminal gangs and all sorts of things. There are those who have created child soldiers too- I would include them.



Yes, I only commented on pedophiles as most of the discussions I've seen have only been about them.

[Revolution starts with U]

Comrade, do you know they did it for drug money? I'm just saying, me and my friends used to steal bikes around our town every night, but not for drug money (forgive me, we were stupid young punks). We just wanted bikes to ride.
The problem is, with the drugs are a problem theory, is that drug use is universal from rich to poor. It is just more of a problem for the poor, because they're poor. Already suspect to the cops, no good lawyers, possibly no money for fines, and a myriad other reasons.
I'm not saying drugs aren't a problem. I'm saying there are deeper problems than just the drugs.

[Revolution starts with U]

I can never support the death penalty because at least one person will be falsely convicted. And that makes me a murderer.:thumbdown:

[ComradeMan]

Where I am that is the 90% probability.

However- a thief steals from everyone in a certain sense.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think people are confusing crime and prisons in this thread. Since incarceration rates have been shown to have no effect on crime rates, the issues really should be seen as separate.


REAL criminals should be put away in prison. And people with mental problems should be treated. Most of that is easy enough if everything was simple--but lots of criminals fall into askew categories. A little of everything.

Anyway, I have no problem with people with troubles being treated --but more important to me is that regular people be kept safe.

There we agree.

Blaming society and Capitalism--it's a waste of time for now.

If the prison system keeps people on the outside safe then California would have seen crime rates drop corresponding to incarceration rates. But in the real world, the police and courts and prison system do jack shit to keep anyone safe. When was the last time you heard on the news that a store was being robbed and a cop walked by or drove by - it's pretty rare and usually just ends up being morning DJ fodder for stories like: "hey, did you hear about the guy who tried to rob a doughnut shop, but 3 of the customers were cops"? All that the police do in my neighborhood is drive around pulling people over for vehicle or traffic violations and they use that as an excuse to check out their cars for evidence of drugs and check the id to see if people have warrants or are violating their parole terms. These systems - at best - can only react to crimes that have been committed.

The problem with the view that locking up individuals means keeping the source of violent crimes away from the rest of society is that it conflates the causes of crime with the perpetrators of a crime. The sources of crime are a social problem, not a personal problem of victims and perpetrators.


Blaming society and Capitalism--it's a waste of time for now.I disagree when people say that because crime and the prison system are the results of capitalism, nothing can really be done about reducing criminal acts until the revolution comes and the social causes of crime are eliminated. However, is identifying the source of these problems in capitalism a waste of time? Not if you are actually trying to challenge the way these issues are dealt with in capitalist society right now. Saying that it's a wast of time to try and understand and explain where this comes from because of the immediacy of the issues facing us is like saying it doesn't matter where the bubonic plague comes from, the important thing is treating the sick.

I think it has to be a combination of reform struggles right now against both the prison system and its abuses and excesses as well as the source of crime - which is primarily poverty and issues connected with that. True, all the external sources of crime can not be done away with in the context of capitalism (inequality and so on) but significant steps can be made to combat it from a left-wing perspective. The Black Panthers with their drug-treatment programs and food programs and organizing the poor did more to stop crime in Oakland than anything the government has done to try and repress criminals. The Crips in LA tried to create their own truce (with the help of some catholic priests and other community organizers) among all the various crip gangs and they laid out what they thought would reduce gang violence: in short it was give people something to live for and they would rather live a quiet safe life than risk it all for money and infamy. Their "demands" for ending gang culture were almost the same as the Black Panther Platform: they called for decent affordable housing, job programs, and reductions of police surveillance and repression in their neighborhoods.

[Sir Comradical]

Nope for me. I'm against all killing of fellow human beings. No death pealty, no euthenasia, no abortion.

All human life, (potential, disliked, usless, disguared,) is sacred.

Why stop at human life? Why not consider the lives of other animals to be sacred as well? Why is it that human life is worth more than a chicken's life?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why stop at human life? Why not consider the lives of other animals to be sacred as well? Why is it that human life is worth more than a chicken's life?Because humans can organize and consciously express their desires and chose to kill or not to kill for food or punishment or war or whatnot. A mountain lion kills its prey not out of a conscious desire, just survival - there is a difference. That's not to excuse unnecessary abuse of animals or non-living things either like rivers or forests or rocks, but there is most certainty an observable and qualitative difference.

If there is no difference in the value of a human or chicken life, then we should hold animals personally accountable for when they kill or injure a human and the poultry industry is worse than the holocaust. I think it's not a very good political position to hold.

[Sir Comradical]

Because humans can organize and consciously express their desires and chose to kill or not to kill for food or punishment or war or whatnot. A mountain lion kills its prey not out of a conscious desire, just survival - there is a difference. That's not to excuse unnecessary abuse of animals or non-living things either like rivers or forests or rocks, but there is most certainty an observable and qualitative difference.

If there is no difference in the value of a human or chicken life, then we should hold animals personally accountable for when they kill or injure a human and the poultry industry is worse than the holocaust. I think it's not a very good political position to hold.

I mean of course it would be a ridiculous political position. See my previous post was directed at Bud Struggle who claimed that human life is sacred. My response to this statement was to to ask why we should stop at human life being uniquely "sacred"?

[RGacky3]

Well, I tend to agree- but when it comes to harming innocent children, something really evil and perverted--- I'm sorry- children are the future of humanity and if you deliberately harm them then you are de facto an enemy of the people, as well as an evil bastard.

As an emotional response, yes, but thats why we should'nt havce a justice system based on emotion and vengance, it should be based on protecting society.


Why stop at human life? Why not consider the lives of other animals to be sacred as well? Why is it that human life is worth more than a chicken's life?

Because we are human.


Difference of opinion. Society is quite good if you give it a try.

No its not, sorry bud, thats like saying a Casino is good if you try, yeah, for some maybe, bud overall the house wins, except Casino odds are WAY WAY WAY better.

[Ele'ill]

Because humans can organize and consciously express their desires and chose to kill or not to kill for food or punishment or war or whatnot.

Animals organize consciously as well- this is an issue of sentience as it always is and animals are sentient.



A mountain lion kills its prey not out of a conscious desire, just survival - there is a difference.It is a conscious desire to eat- with both humans and other animals.



That's not to excuse unnecessary abuse of animals or non-living things either like rivers or forests or rocks, but there is most certainty an observable and qualitative difference.So then you're agreeing with Sir Comradical- as if there would be a time when 'necessary abuse' would be appropriate.




If there is no difference in the value of a human or chicken life, then we should hold animals personally accountable for when they kill or injure a human and the poultry industry is worse than the holocaust. I think it's not a very good political position to hold.Yes, because meat is a thing of the old world and simply isn't necessary.

How's THIS for wildly off topic
(I realized after posting this that it's a valid reply but very very very unrelated to this thread)

[Bud Struggle]

I called an Assistant Warden of a prison in Florida and asked him to respond to the things you mentioned here. He couldn't directly address California's situation--but I don't think both states are far apart in how they do things.



Food: While the food is OK (but that's mostly only if you compare it to jail food - which I have had the misfortune to try first hand) imagine it being your only option. If the food was so great, then the private vendors would not be able to come by and sell shitty pizza and chicken at 5 times the normal price to family members in the visiting areas. Well maybe they could try but the inmates would not beg their friends and relatives to buy it for them. Prisoners are fed nutritious medium caloric food. The variety of the good a reasonably well moved around. Ethnic foods are not served and the food is not seasoned because it is cooked in large quantities and has to appeal to the most basic palates. There is nothing wrong with the food and it does its job. Also the food is served in copious quantities. The Asst. Warden mentiontioned--it is a prison not a country club, but the food is healthy.


Treatment: Most of the time the treatment is not like in a movie where guards act like Caligula or the captains of a pirate ship or something. But there have been many well-documented cases of abuse by guards and I have heard many first hand accounts, but for the most part, physical abuse seems to be reserved for special occasions or for particular inmates. My friend is not in the highest security blocs either, so treatment might vary within prisons.

However, the psychological abuse and mind-games is very apparent and even directed at visitors like little old me. Collective punishment is the norm in California Prisons and is based on location (prison or cell bloc) and most of the time on race. The last time I visited, the prison was punishing a Latino gang with notes on the windows of main office: "No Mexican Citizens Are Allowed Visitation Until further notice". Now, if the problem was that a Mexican gang was rioting and the prison was afraid that visitors were sneaking in weapons, why punish the entire prison population when only a section are in the gang? Further, visitors have all sorts of arbitrary rules and regulations that you are not informed of until you show up. So people from Mexico had to plan this big trip to the states, get all the paperwork done, jump through all the hoops, spend all that money to visit their loved one... only to show up and be told through a hand-written sign made on notebook paper: "you can't come and we don't know when you will be able to". That's psychological punishment - the prisons do everything they can to make visiting unpleasant and difficult for working class people and while I don't have any proof of it, I think the reason is that they want to isolate the prisoners from the outside as much as they can. Everytime I've gone to visit (which must be like a dozen times) it's a 2 hour drive (6-7 hour drive for his family who live in southern California) and then I show up and it turns out that I'm not allowed to wear some other article of clothing... if I'm lucky I can get some Grey sweats that they loan you if you are not wearing the proper colors of the week. As a visitor the guards try and intimidate you if you are male and make creepy small-talk with you if you are female. I've had one guard insinuate that I was there to do something illegal and another guard berate me for not knowing the absurd and constantly changing protocols and he said: "You need to know this stuff for when all your other friends get arrested".

While the guards are not going around beating people up right and left at all times, there is widespread corruption and racketeering by the guards - often working with the gangs. Inside it is pretty open and the way my friends describe it, it sounds just like the widespread police corruption from the 30s and 40s when cops controlled things like prostitution and used pay-off systems for other organized criminal activities. Smuggling cell phones seems to be a big thing right now. (Remember that so that in 2 years or 3 moths or whatever when you read in the papers in a small article on page 8 about a few "bad apple" guards being caught in a corruption ring:lol:).
The Asst Warden said the main concern of the prison is safty. Moving, excercising and feed large amounts of sometimes violent men is sometimes very dangerous and several tactics are used to keep them constantly off guard.

Blaming groups for individual behavior keeps stray personalities in check with peer pressure. Keeping rules changing keeps prisoners concentrated on the problems of daily life and keeps their thoughts away from hurting other inmates and police officers.

In reality there are a very few officers to keep control over a large number of prisoners and they do indeed use psychological tactics. Most of these things were put into practice after the severe prison riots of the '60s and '70s--and for the most part they work--the number of prison deaths from prisoner on prisoner crime has decreased to almost nothing compared to what it was 30 years ago.


I'm not saying you should LIKE any of this--but there are definite reasons why things are done they way they are done in prisons. All these seemingly arbitary actions are really well planned and orchestrated.

As to the corruption of the guards--it is an ongoing problem that sometimes gets overlooked.




The worst thing about US prisons is that my friend is now on his 7th year for a horrible accident that he handled poorly (he was right out of college) but is by no means the result of an intentional act or ongoing behaviors, it was a freak thing that probably never would have happened again. It was a hit and run (the person he hit lived but was injured badly), he didn't call to report the accident and he wasn't sure what had even happened because he was scared. It's terrible and he regrets it, but it doesn't matter, the prisons system isn't about justice. This is more a problem of the legal system than the correction system. Best of luck to your friend.

[RGacky3]

Blaming groups for individual behavior keeps stray personalities in check with peer pressure. Keeping rules changing keeps prisoners concentrated on the problems of daily life and keeps their thoughts away from hurting other inmates and police officers.


Thats an inhuman way of dealing with an inumane system

Its like kicking a dog, then holding the dog down because he's crazy, why not just stop kicking the dog?


I'm not saying you should LIKE any of this--but there are definite reasons why things are done they way they are done in prisons. All these seemingly arbitary actions are really well planned and orchestrated.


THe question is'nt whether or not they worked, what Stalin did "worked" too, but it voilated peoples rights, prisoners are still humans, with dignity and rights.

[Bud Struggle]

Thats an inhuman way of dealing with an inumane system

Its like kicking a dog, then holding the dog down because he's crazy, why not just stop kicking the dog?

THe question is'nt whether or not they worked, what Stalin did "worked" too, but it voilated peoples rights, prisoners are still humans, with dignity and rights.

Well, I'm not sure if using peer pressure and motivational techniques is akin to "Stalinist" methods in the Gulags. (You've been listening to the Stalinst propaganda around here for too long :D)

The reason for these techniques is safety. Many, but not all of course, of these prisoners are dangerous and harmful people and they need to be kept neutralized so they don't harm guards and don't harm other members of the prison population.

The other point is "rights". While prisoners so have some rights--many other rights are lost when when you are convicted of a crime. Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.

[RGacky3]

Well, I'm not sure if using peer pressure and motivational techniques is akin to "Stalinist" methods in the Gulags. (You've been listening to the Stalinst propaganda around here for too long :D)


I was using it to show how the argument of "it works" does'nt work if it goes against peoples humanity.


Many, but not all of course, of these prisoners are dangerous and harmful people and they need to be kept neutralized so they don't harm guards and don't harm other members of the prison population.


Why are they dangerous and harmful people? Most of them become that way THROUGH the prison system. Many of these people are gonna get out, you want them to leave with THAT mentality?


The other point is "rights". While prisoners so have some rights--many other rights are lost when when you are convicted of a crime. Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.

I"m pretty sure they have a right to be treated fairly and humanely, and not be subject to psychological torture.

[synthesis]

But killing is evil too. And I rather take these people and put them in the fucked up American prisons than kill them.

It prison is worse-- so much the better.

Do you at least recognize that this is precisely the mentality which passively allows U.S. prisons to be so extraneously fucked up in the first place?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.Or, as my anecdote about my friend shows, be rich and do the crime without any time.

As to the methods in prisons, its a question of means and ends. If the end of the US prison system are just in your view then the bland food, collective punishment, solitary confinement, psychological abuse, racial segregation are just. It's the same if you lived in the USSR and wanted Russia to be a strong economic power - then I guess all of Stalin's methods were justified. Or the holocaust is justified if you think the NAZIs goal of a all-German empire was just. Or the war in Iraq is just if you think the US's ends were liberation and democracy, not occupation and imperialism.

Since the prison system in the US is the largest in the world; does nothing to alleviate the sources of violent crimes; prison culture actually helped create modern gangs in California; increases racial animosity (I'd argue as a conscious divide and rule tactic in CA prisons); incarcerates people more often when they are poor and have only a public defender; arrests are often done because of profiling in the first place (I'm sure if cops patrolled fraternity row near any college like they do a working class cruse or bar they would get just as many drug possession arrests and drunk-driving arrests) - then none of the prison systems means are justified because their ends has nothing to do with helping individual inmates, preventing crime, or rehabilitation - the ends of the US prison system is to maintain the staus-quo. Since in California the politicians are now cutting education and raising tuition while continuing prison spending (and actually taking out a 300 million dollar loan for prison construction), maintenance of the status quo hurts all working class people in California.


This is more a problem of the legal system than the correction system. Best of luck to your friend. Thanks, but its all part of one system - injustice in police profiling followed by injustice in the way the courts favor the rich or testimony by police is followed by injustice in the prisons. You can't excuse the lion by blaming his claws for doing the killing or his teeth for doing the chewing, it's all part of the same system.

[Bud Struggle]

Or, as my anecdote about my friend shows, be rich and do the crime without any time. And I agree it's not always totally fair. BUT your friends punishment (in my opinion--you may not agree) is fair. There should be rules against hit and run. (Actually it's uinfair to bring your friend into the picture--it's not about hte particular, it's about the general.)


As to the methods in prisons, its a question of means and ends. If the end of the US prison system are just in your view then the bland food, collective punishment, solitary confinement, psychological abuse, racial segregation are just. It's the same if you lived in the USSR and wanted Russia to be a strong economic power - then I guess all of Stalin's methods were justified. Or the holocaust is justified if you think the NAZIs goal of a all-German empire was just. Or the war in Iraq is just if you think the US's ends were liberation and democracy, not occupation and imperialism. Bit of a rant there, don't you think? The Prison system in the USA--may be bad, but it certainly isn't the HOLOCAUST! Geez get a grip.


Since the prison system in the US is the largest in the world; does nothing to alleviate the sources of violent crimes; prison culture actually helped create modern gangs in California; increases racial animosity (I'd argue as a conscious divide and rule tactic in CA prisons); incarcerates people more often when they are poor and have only a public defender; arrests are often done because of profiling in the first place (I'm sure if cops patrolled fraternity row near any college like they do a working class cruse or bar they would get just as many drug possession arrests and drunk-driving arrests) - then none of the prison systems means are justified because their ends has nothing to do with helping individual inmates, preventing crime, or rehabilitation - the ends of the US prison system is to maintain the staus-quo. Since in California the politicians are now cutting education and raising tuition while continuing prison spending (and actually taking out a 300 million dollar loan for prison construction), maintenance of the status quo hurts all working class people in California. That's the issue. Really. People have to make their own decisions how to live their lives. Every criminal DECIDES to commit a crime. If they make that decision, fine, they deserve what they get. On the other hand does society OWE people more opportunity--no. But is it in the interest of society to give people more opportunity--yes. It's good business. Business interests aren't doing a good job here and neither are people making good decisions for themselves.

This is where government might help a bit.


Thanks, but its all part of one system - injustice in police profiling followed by injustice in the way the courts favor the rich or testimony by police is followed by injustice in the prisons. You can't excuse the lion by blaming his claws for doing the killing or his teeth for doing the chewing, it's all part of the same system.

Sorry but in the end it's a matter of INDIVIDUAL responsibility. People have to change their lives one by one--each person has to take responsibility from the ground up. Put down that crack pipe, start a business, get a job, vote. Then things will change.

Without that individual responsibility--neither Capitalist Democracy or Communism will ever work. There seem to be a failure in the human spirit for such things. The Proletariat doesn't need a Revolution to be free--only a voter ballot.

[ComradeMan]

That's the issue. Really. People have to make their own decisions how to live their lives. Every criminal DECIDES to commit a crime. If they make that decision, fine, they deserve what they get. On the other hand does society OWE people more opportunity--no. But is it in the interest of society to give people more opportunity--yes. It's good business. Business interests aren't doing a good job here and neither are people making good decisions for themselves.

Every criminal DECIDES to commit a crime.

Do they really Bud? Or can you not concede a little that there is a Pavlovian element to it too? The problem is what brings them to having to make that "decision"?

[RGacky3]

Sorry but in the end it's a matter of INDIVIDUAL responsibility. People have to change their lives one by one--each person has to take responsibility from the ground up. Put down that crack pipe, start a business, get a job, vote. Then things will change.


How is that an argument for the system?


Without that individual responsibility--neither Capitalist Democracy or Communism will ever work. There seem to be a failure in the human spirit for such things. The Proletariat doesn't need a Revolution to be free--only a voter ballot.

Really? How did that work out with Obama?

Demanding Individual responsibiluty is'nt a defence of a system.

[Bud Struggle]

Demanding Individual responsibiluty is'nt a defence of a system.

True. But only individual responsibility will change the system. And people aren't even taking the little steps--they never will take the big ones.

So stop it. May dad was in the union and it screwed him. He worked for a big company it screwed him, too. All you have is yourself. The system doesn't matter--Capitalist, Communist, Anarchist, Feudal--who cares?

Make a good life for you and yours. I don't give a damn about Capitalism--it's what's here and now. If it was Communism--I'd make my way in that.

Gack, there is only you.

[Lord Testicles]

Make a good life for you and yours. I don't give a damn about Capitalism--it's what's here and now. If it was Communism--I'd make my way in that.



Even if it means making the lives of others miserable. It's a good way to live your life Bud, let's hope it doesn't come around and bite you on the ass.

[Bud Struggle]

Even if it means making the lives of others miserable. It's a good way to live your life Bud, let's hope it doesn't come around and bite you on the ass.

Well yea. But it was a philosophical point.

If we are all big time MARERIALISTS please tell me exactly why I SHOULD care about you.

Respond in the space provided below.

[Lord Testicles]

Well yea. But it was a philosophical point. Tell me exactly why I SHOULD care about you.

Respond in the space provided below.

I'm not saying you should, I don't think you need to CARE about me.

But using your philosophical point, if I was a poor dude with nothing to my name but a run down shack on the edge of down and a heavy lead pipe and I was walking through your neighbourhood during thanksgiving and I happened to glance through your window and saw you and yours having a wonderful time whilst I knew that me and mine were starving and cold. Using your logic of "make it good for only you and yours", I'd be perfectly justified in breaking into your house clobbering you and your familiy with my heavy lead pipe and then stealing your delicious thanksgiving dinner and anything in your wallet to make life a little better for me and mine, no?

[Ele'ill]

Every criminal DECIDES to commit a crime.

Do they really Bud? Or can you not concede a little that there is a Pavlovian element to it too? The problem is what brings them to having to make that "decision"?


To an extent, this.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm not saying you should, I don't think you need to CARE about me.

But using your philosophical point, if I was a poor dude with nothing to my name but a run down shack on the edge of down and a heavy lead pipe and I was walking through your neighbourhood during thanksgiving and I happened to glance through your window and saw you and yours having a wonderful time whilst I knew that me and mine were starving and cold. Using your logic of "make it good for only you and yours", I'd be perfectly justified in breaking into your house clobbering you and your familiy with my heavy lead pipe and then stealing your delicious thanksgiving dinner and anything in your wallet to make life a little better for me and mine, no?

I agee. But you won't do that. You would vote for a Senator or congressman that would extend tax cuts for people makining over a billion dollars a year. That is where you heart is at.

Look , I'm Bourgeoisie--but even I think the Capitalists are money hungry bastards but I also think workers are "please fuck me" ass holes.

I think there could be some sanity here for all concerned.

[Lord Testicles]

I agee. But you won't do that. You would vote for a Senator or congressman that would extend tax cuts for people makining over a billion dollars a year. That is where you heart is at.

Look , I'm Bourgeoisie--but even I think the Capitalists are money hungry bastards but I also think workers are "please fuck me" ass holes.

I think there could be some sanity here for all concerned.

I certainly wouldn't do that because I like to think that I'm not a massive bastard, then again I've never been that hungry or had kids to feed. But considering the amount of burglaries that happen, I'm assuming quite a lot of people are willing to do it and it's all justified according to bud struggle. :)
Remember that if you ever get mugged, don't get mad, it's just someone following your philosophy in life, "Me and mine".

[Bud Struggle]

I certainly wouldn't do that because I like to think that I'm not a massive bastard, then again I've never been that hungry or had kids to feed. But considering the amount of burglaries that happen, I'm assuming quite a lot of people are willing to do it and it's all justified according to bud struggle. :)
Remember that if you ever get mugged, don't get mad, it's just someone following your philosophy in life, "Me and mine". You don't have to steal of kil or murder of any of that.

All you have to do is vote.

That's how it's set up. Now YOU just have to get up off your ass and find a guy that represents you and vote for him.

Trust me--if you can't do that then you can't have a Revolution.

SO---sit down and--WELCOME yourself to the world as it is. :)

[Lord Testicles]

You don't have to steal of kil or murder of any of that.

All you have to do is vote.

That's how it's set up. Now YOU just have to get up off your ass and find a guy that represents you and vote for him.

Trust me--if you can't do that then you can't have a Revolution.

SO---sit down and--WELCOME yourself to the world as it is. :)

But people don't do that. Bud, you're living in lala land, do you think the average mugger cares about voting, does he fuck. All he cares about is what's in your wallet and how sharp his knife has to be to get at it. I'm not talking about the revolution or any kind of social change, welcome to the world as it is now.

[Bud Struggle]

But people don't do that. Bud, you're living in lala land, do you think the average mugger cares about voting, does he fuck. All he cares about is what's in your wallet and how sharp his knife has to be to get at it. I'm not talking about the revolution or any kind of social change, welcome to the world as it is now.

I agree. Really.

And I'm not seeing any chance of change from this in the forseeable future.

Now how do we change this paradigm?

[RGacky3]

All you have is yourself. The system doesn't matter--Capitalist, Communist, Anarchist, Feudal--who cares?

Make a good life for you and yours. I don't give a damn about Capitalism--it's what's here and now. If it was Communism--I'd make my way in that.

Gack, there is only you.

There is only me, and HUGE institutions of power, look you managed to get a good middle class life, and you ALWAYS say "look at what Capitalism did for me, it worked for me," if your gonna say that you can't take away blame for the damage it does.

Bud, sure you can make in in stalinism too, become a beaucrat, but only a small percentage of the population can make it, thats the way the system is set up, which makes it a shitty system.


All you have to do is vote.

That's how it's set up. Now YOU just have to get up off your ass and find a guy that represents you and vote for him.


But your vote does'nt matter, Obama tought us that lesson for the hundreth time.

[RGacky3]

Now how do we change this paradgmn?

What? You contradict yourself over and over again in this thread.

[Lord Testicles]

I agree. Really.

And I'm not seeing any chance of change from this in the forseeable future.

Now how do we change this paradigm?

I wouldn't know, but the current system of incarceration certainly doesn't seem to work, or at least not very well.

[Bud Struggle]

What? You contradict yourself over and over again in this thread.

Imagine that!

Maybe, just maybe, I'm not that monoculture Capitalistic bastard that you've been painting me as for these last couple of years.

SUPRISE!

[Jazzratt]

Imagine that!

Maybe, just maybe, I'm not that monoculture Capitalistic bastard that you've been painting me as for these last couple of years.

SUPRISE! Not contradicting yourself doen't make you monoculture. It makes you consistent; as in not a complete tool.

[Bud Struggle]

Not contradicting yourself doen't make you monoculture. It makes you consistent; as in not a complete tool.

I totally agree, my lord. I am a fool you are all great.

:)

Now, moving on....

[Lord Testicles]

I totally agree my lord. I am a fool you are all great.

:)

Are you positive you've had only three martinis? ;)

You're also right, Jazzratt is pretty epic.

[Bud Struggle]

Are you positive you've had only three martinis? ;) I said what happened...;)


You're also right, Jazzratt is pretty epic.I've make 8000 posts here and Jazz has never said anything else intelligent to me than, "your a bellend". Maybe he's right or maybe he's a broken record--who knows?

[RGacky3]

I totally agree, my lord. I am a fool you are all great.


I don't think he said anything about being great, but he did call you a tool, which is what you call someone who contradicts himself over and over again in the same damn thread, I mean common, at least have the decency to condradict yourself in different threads.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't think he said anything about being great, but he did call you a tool, which is what you call someone who contradicts himself over and over again in the same damn thread, I mean common, at least have the decency to condradict yourself in different threads.

If in any time I'm known Jazz he didn't make a post that just insulted me--I'd consider what he had to say. But that hasn't been the case. My job as his servant is to do what he say--not consider his points.

You have a point Gack?--make it yourself, don't rely on me bowing to whatever criticism that lord of the manor has to make.

[Ele'ill]

If in any time I'm known Jazz he didn't make a post that just insulted me--I'd consider what he had to say. But that hasn't been the case. My job as his servant is to do what he say--not consider his points.

You have a point Gack?--make it yourself, don't rely on me bowing to whatever criticism that lord of the manor has to make.

The things that sound good after three martinis :rolleyes:

[Jazzratt]

I've make 8000 posts here and Jazz has never said anything else intelligent to me than, "your a bellend". Maybe he's right or maybe he's a broken record--who knows? Perhaps it's the fact that you appear to have some serious damage to the part of your brain that governs memory, presumably due to the unnecessary brain surgery that made you the total cretin you are today, but there was a time when I used to try to engage your bollocks. These days you say the same aggravating shit over and over again, it's probably not a surprise that all the replies have merged into one single phrase. I do think it captures the essence of what I've been saying to you because you are one of the most aggravating numpties (aside t_wolves_fan) to ever grace this site.

I don't usually engage with you at all except on off topic posts and I think I have presented satisfactory reasons for that (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-there-so-t144835/index.html?p=1926427#post1926427). Although it does boil down to the fact that you are, when all is said and done, a bellend. A bellend that can spout inanities from now until the heat death of the universe, twisting them ever so slightly or going on completely contradictory lunatic tangents but a bellend none the less. You occupy your own, wonderfully warped, reality which you pompously tell anyone insensible enough to listen is "the real world" and "how it works" because you're a bellend. You spill your rancid parody of the already dubious "folksy wisdom" shit that so many people seem to view as a worthwhile replacement for actual argument and wrap it up as the common sense of the self-made man because you're a bellend. Ultimately nearly every post you've made on this site and certainly all the ones made in the serious threads here and on the religion subforum are made, at base, because you are a total and utter, colossal and unbelievable, unfathomable and unthinkable imbecilic, snot-nosed, empty-headed bellend.

[Bud Struggle]

Perhaps it's the fact that you appear to have some serious damage to the part of your brain that governs memory, presumably due to the unnecessary brain surgery that made you the total cretin you are today, but there was a time when I used to try to engage your bollocks. These days you say the same aggravating shit over and over again, it's probably not a surprise that all the replies have merged into one single phrase. I do think it captures the essence of what I've been saying to you because you are one of the most aggravating numpties (aside t_wolves_fan) to ever grace this site.

I don't usually engage with you at all except on off topic posts and I think I have presented satisfactory reasons for that (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-there-so-t144835/index.html?p=1926427#post1926427). Although it does boil down to the fact that you are, when all is said and done, a bellend. A bellend that can spout inanities from now until the heat death of the universe, twisting them ever so slightly or going on completely contradictory lunatic tangents but a bellend none the less. You occupy your own, wonderfully warped, reality which you pompously tell anyone insensible enough to listen is "the real world" and "how it works" because you're a bellend. You spill your rancid parody of the already dubious "folksy wisdom" shit that so many people seem to view as a worthwhile replacement for actual argument and wrap it up as the common sense of the self-made man because you're a bellend. Ultimately nearly every post you've made on this site and certainly all the ones made in the serious threads here and on the religion subforum are made, at base, because you are a total and utter, colossal and unbelievable, unfathomable and unthinkable imbecilic, snot-nosed, empty-headed bellend.

I love you! :) And I am a Bellend.

But in the end I'm a bellend that made a comfortable life out of what this world has to offer. I did that in Capitalism and I can do as well or better in Communism.

Bring it on, Comrade. ;)

[Ele'ill]

But it isn't a matter of doing better than with Communism. Bring it on and help the left change the world- don't you want everyone to be as comfortable as you are or do you have a complex?

[Bud Struggle]

don't you want everyone to be as comfortable as you are?

I wish them well--but I really don't care. :)

As I said, I'll be at the top of the heap no matter what system is in place. It's like this: I like driving a Bentley. If everyone had a Bentley--GREAT, but if there was only one Bentley--I'd get it.

I may be a Bellend, but I'm a Bellend with a Bentley. If you are a Rocket Scientist taking public transit--more power to you.

[Ele'ill]

I wish them well--but I really don't care. :)

As I said, I'll be at the top of the heap no matter what system is in place. It's like this: I like driving a Bentley. If everyone had a Bentley--GREAT, but if there was only one Bentley--I'd get it.

I may be a Bellend, but I'm a Bellend with a Bentley. If you are a Rocket Scientist taking public transit--more power to you.

Why?

[Lord Testicles]

I wish them well--but I really don't care. :)

As I said, I'll be at the top of the heap no matter what system is in place. It's like this: I like driving a Bentley. If everyone had a Bentley--GREAT, but if there was only one Bentley--I'd get it.

That's my plan.

You mean until someone took your philosophical advice and car jacked you? ;)

[Bud Struggle]

Why?

I like what I like and I do what I do. You can do what you like--fair?

[Ele'ill]

I like what I like and I do what I do. You can do what you like--fair?

I don't even know what that means

[Bud Struggle]

I don't even know what that means


I live the life I want to live--with the goals I choose, and you can do the same for yourself.

Easy enough.

ENJOY!

[Lord Testicles]

I live the life I want to live--with the goals I choose, and you can do the same for yourself.

Easy enough.

What if your way of life or your goals infringe on my ability to live my life and achieve my goals? How do we decide which one takes precedence?

[Ele'ill]

I mean it's not like we've ever had this conversation with Bud Struggle before :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

What if your way of life or your goals infringe on my ability to live my life and achieve my goals? How do we decide which one takes precedence?

You can PERSONALLY do whatever you want. So can I. You personally never have to work in my factory or be a second mate on my boat. I trust you will oblige me the same privilidge.

If other people want to work in my factory--that is no business of yours.

[Lord Testicles]

I mean it's not like we've ever had this conversation with Bud Struggle before :rolleyes:

I enjoy them to a degree, so stop making it sound like I'm just wearing away my keyboard. ;)


If other people want to work in my factory--that is no business of yours.

I think the important difference is that they don't necessary want to work in your factory but are driven by economic need to do so. I wouldn't want to work in your factory or on your boat but if you offered me a job I wouldn't turn it down because I need to work to sustain myself.

[Jazzratt]

I enjoy them to a degree, so stop making it sound like I'm just wearing away my keyboard. ;) There's a saying about not arguing with idiots because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. In this case I don't think there are any idiots (or fools, imbeciles, cretins or morons) that have quite the preponderance of experience in this particular merry-go-round of a conversation as Bud Struggle.

[Revolution starts with U]

Whoa.. wait...


You don't have to steal of kil or murder of any of that.

All you have to do is vote.

That's how it's set up. Now YOU just have to get up off your ass and find a guy that represents you and vote for him.

Trust me--if you can't do that then you can't have a Revolution.

SO---sit down and--WELCOME yourself to the world as it is. :)[/QUOTE]

That is THE problem with the republic Bud. People go and find some guy that "represents them" votes for him, and goes home and eats cheetos feeling proud of themselves.
The true revolution happens when people start going to city council meetings, building houses for the homeless, getting control of their workplace, etc. You're only half right in what you're saying.
It is up to YOU, or I.
Representative democracy is just a facade hiding tyranny if people aren't involved.
(Hint; as long as purchasing power remains a means of power, it will be that much harder for those without to have a say)

[Revolution starts with U]

If in any time I'm known Jazz he didn't make a post that just insulted me--I'd consider what he had to say. But that hasn't been the case. My job as his servant is to do what he say--not consider his points.

You have a point Gack?--make it yourself, don't rely on me bowing to whatever criticism that lord of the manor has to make.

Hmmm... is that what it takes to "make the system work for you?" :D

[Bud Struggle]

The true revolution happens when people start going to city council meetings, building houses for the homeless, getting control of their workplace, etc. You're only half right in what you're saying.
It is up to YOU, or I.
[/QUOTE]

Well I use my right as a citizen to petition my government quite frequently (mostly in zoning and land use issues) and it all works quite well for me. That being said: I don't ever see any "citizens" ever going to these meetings. Ever.

Sure the world can change if people start doing things differently--but it just isn't happening.

[RGacky3]

I may be a Bellend, but I'm a Bellend with a Bentley.

Thats exactly the problem with Capitalism. :).

But anyway, no one cares that you do it yourway, or how rich you are or whatever, no one is impressed like that on a revolutionary left forum.

What matters here is your abilituy to formulate arguments and use logic to make points and have a proper discussion, and when it comes to that you fail misserably.

If you don't care, then go do something thats worth your time rather than waste it here.

[Bud Struggle]

Thats exactly the problem with Capitalism. :).

But anyway, no one cares that you do it yourway, or how rich you are or whatever, no one is impressed like that on a revolutionary left forum.
It wasn't meant to impress--it was ment to explain my position when someone asked.


What matters here is your abilituy to formulate arguments and use logic to make points and have a proper discussion, and when it comes to that you fail misserably.I have a lot to learn. Actually right now I'm learning the wonders of Pol Pot. I'm learning that in the thread nex door to this one. It seems we Communist need to reintroduce him to the world. :)



If you don't care, then go do something thats worth your time rather than waste it here.You are one bitter guy.:rolleyes:

[La Comédie Noire]

I thought bellend was a fancy french for someone who was intellectually dishonest or a philistine, but I just looked it up. :lol:

[RGacky3]

It wasn't meant to impress--it was ment to explain my position when someone asked.


No one asked, but for some reason you feel the need to repeat it everytime you get called out for not being able to have a discussion or make arguments.


I have a lot to learn. Actually right now I'm learning the wonders of Pol Pot. I'm learning that in the thread nex door to this one. It seems we Communist need to reintroduce him to the world. :)


You do have a lot to learn, but you refuse to learn and continue in your team america dillusion, and just ignore arguments when you don't like them but can't think of anything to respond.


You are one bitter guy.

If you think revolution, social change or being consistant is a waste of time and if you refuse to listen to any arguments then I honestly don't know why your posting here.

[RGacky3]

BTW, if you want to hear about new Pol Pots look up indonesias history.

[Bud Struggle]

No one asked, but for some reason you feel the need to repeat it everytime you get called out for not being able to have a discussion or make arguments.



You do have a lot to learn, but you refuse to learn and continue in your team america dillusion, and just ignore arguments when you don't like them but can't think of anything to respond.



If you think revolution, social change or being consistant is a waste of time and if you refuse to listen to any arguments then I honestly don't know why your posting here.

Mari3L asked. Post #99.

And your point other than personal attack? Gack--I don't discuss your personal reasons for posting here--no need to get into it with me.

[RGacky3]

My personal reason for posting here is anyones personal reason for posting here, to have intelligent discussions and enjoy learning new viewpoints and exchanging arguments. I honestly don't know why you troll here.

[ComradeMan]

My personal reason for posting here is anyones personal reason for posting here, to have intelligent discussions and enjoy learning new viewpoints and exchanging arguments. I honestly don't know why you troll here.

Well, Bud has never said he wasn't a capitalist, although I see him more as a person in capitalism and not of it, and he has his viewpoint- so exchange ideas and learn new viewpoints, but don't expect people to agree with you automatically all the time- and then get nasty because they don't. That's intellectual authoritarianism. Although Bud and I don't agree on practically any political line he is one of the most left-sympathetic cappies I ever came across, especially in a US context.

His point about Pol Pot is valid in the context that an objection raised to communism by the non-left is that it leads to Pol Pot, to purges and gulags, to Stalin and to North Korean style dystopias. Surely, it would be more constructive to demonstrate why this may not be so instead of calling someone who is admittedly a non-leftist but a "sympathiser" a stupid idiot all the time.

Gacky, you were also restricted for your stance on a certain issue- does that make you a non-leftist? A reactionary? Etc... let he who is entirely non-reactionary cast the first stone in this one... :lol:

These days "we" seem to be a minority, and if you want that to change you're going to have to talk to a lot of Bud's and try to convince them. He serves his purpose here- how do you know he's not a double-agent? Testing your "leftism" to the maximum?

[RGacky3]

I have no problem with people that don't agree with me, what I have a problem with is people who don't make honest arguments, people who contradict themself, people that just ignore arguments and move on to something else rather than actually engange.

NO ONE, was attacking bud for his beliefs, it was that he refuses to have an honest discussion and rather spouts incoherant bullshit that has no basis in any sort of fact or logic.

Its like trying to argue with a child thats already made up his mind on what he wants and refuses to listen to anything that goes against what he wants, refuses to respond to it, and just yells over and over again the same thing no matter what anyone says.

Thats why Jazzrat and others just ignore Bud (probably smart thing to do), and why I call him an idiot, because what else do you call someone that goes on a lefitst forum and has the same level of discussion of a child that wants candy.

I have no problem having discussions with Capitalists, I have many discussions with libertarians and most of the time we never agree, but at least we have coherant discussions and they make coherant arguments that adults can follow.

Havet who is totally a free market socialist and whos views we usually never agree on, can formulate himself in a way that makes sense and has to do with the topic, and I respect that. But someone who comes on a leftist forum and acts like a child, and then when he's called out he just says things that have nothing to do with anything like saying he has money as if its relevant.

[Bud Struggle]

I have no problem with people that don't agree with me, what I have a problem with is people who don't make honest arguments, people who contradict themself, people that just ignore arguments and move on to something else rather than actually engange.

NO ONE, was attacking bud for his beliefs, it was that he refuses to have an honest discussion and rather spouts incoherant bullshit that has no basis in any sort of fact or logic.

Its like trying to argue with a child thats already made up his mind on what he wants and refuses to listen to anything that goes against what he wants, refuses to respond to it, and just yells over and over again the same thing no matter what anyone says.

Thats why Jazzrat and others just ignore Bud (probably smart thing to do), and why I call him an idiot, because what else do you call someone that goes on a lefitst forum and has the same level of discussion of a child that wants candy.

I have no problem having discussions with Capitalists, I have many discussions with libertarians and most of the time we never agree, but at least we have coherant discussions and they make coherant arguments that adults can follow.

Havet who is totally a free market socialist and whos views we usually never agree on, can formulate himself in a way that makes sense and has to do with the topic, and I respect that. But someone who comes on a leftist forum and acts like a child, and then when he's called out he just says things that have nothing to do with anything like saying he has money as if its relevant.

OK. There thre is no need for me to respond to anything you say further. :)

[Robert]

Representative democracy is just a facade hiding tyranny if people aren't involved.

Yes! If. If. If. If.

And NOTHING is stopping you from getting involved. Nothing but yourself. Quick, do you know your local representative or councilman? Have you ever made an appointment to go meet him? Have you ever written him a letter? He won't know you're alive unless you do, and you can tell him anything you want short of threatening to kill him.

[ComradeMan]

Yes! If. If. If. If.

And NOTHING is stopping you from getting involved. Nothing but yourself. Quick, do you know your local representative or councilman? Have you ever made an appointment to go meet him? Have you ever written him a letter? He won't know you're alive unless you do, and you can tell him anything you want short of threatening to kill him.

Anything... even partying with his wife? LOL!!! Joking.

Robert makes a good point- the power is with the people if they want.

Like, I know this might never happen- but what if.... if everyone, and I mean everyone just stayed at home for a week, okay, candles, pasta and bread rations- but a week, the whole fucking damn system would be on its knees....

[Bud Struggle]

The problem is that all this apperatus is in effect--representitive democracy exists--and few people use it. I don't think you can blame the system. I could understand there being a problem if there was no system (like the non existant "soviets" in the SU) or if the system didn't work--which really isn't the case because it works if you tried it.

I don't think people would be any more involved no matter what system was in place.

[Robert]

Like, I know this might never happen- but what if.... if everyone, and I mean everyone just stayed at home for a week, okay, candles, pasta and bread rations- but a week, the whole fucking damn system would be on its knees....Well, it certainly might happen. One of the aftershocks of the financial crisis of Sept. 2008 was that people stared eating out of their pantries. Nothing like what you are proposing, but it was significant enough to screw up supply chains and affect the cash flow and stock prices of food suppliers like General Mills, if temporarily. However, people like fresh Cheerios and milk far more than they do liberating the proletariat, and so they don't want the system brought to its knees. Not even the revolutionaries here really want that. (Do you ever hear them really calling for it?)

[ComradeMan]

Well, it certainly might happen. One of the aftershocks of the financial crisis of Sept. 2008 was that people stared eating out of their pantries. Nothing like what you are proposing, but it was significant enough to screw up supply chains and affect the cash flow and stock prices of food suppliers like General Mills, if temporarily. However, people like fresh Cheerios and milk far more than they do liberating the proletariat, and so they don't want the system brought to its knees. Not even the revolutionaries here really want that. (Do you ever hear them really calling for it?)

Well... I have, and then I was accused of "lifestylism"....:thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

The problem is that all this apperatus is in effect--representitive democracy exists--and few people use it. I don't think you can blame the system. I could understand there being a problem if there was no system (like the non existant "soviets" in the SU) or if the system didn't work--which really isn't the case because it works if you tried it.


It was tried, thats what Obama was, biggest voter turnout in a long time, and it proved it again, once again, that the system does'nt work, its works just as good as the USSR soviet system.

[Revolution starts with U]

I actually do, and I go bi-weekly to city council meetings. I write letters to the editors of local papers. I do this, mayne :thumbup1:
And more people should. But as long as you can both write letters, and/or threaten to take your business somewhere else, your effect is minimum at best.
BUT, the way to change the system is for more people to get more involved. Nobody is going to change it for them. So I can agree with you there. I am vehemently opposed to vangaurdism.

[Bud Struggle]

It was tried, thats what Obama was, biggest voter turnout in a long time, and it proved it again, once again, that the system does'nt work, its works just as good as the USSR soviet system.

Gack--nobody's going to do it for you. If you want a REAL Progressive movment you have to start from the ground up. You have to build concensus in a base, you have to generate enthusiasm in the rank and file and you have to have candidates that share a common vision of America.

That doesn't exist in the Left right now. I'm not saying that there aren't some people that want that to happen--but I don't see people doing anything to make that happen. Nobody is going to just GIVE Progressives power--they have to take it like the Tea Party is trying to do. They went out and challenged the Republican power base. There is no reason that Progressives can't do the same for the Democrats.

[Ele'ill]

Gack--nobody's going to do it for you. If you want a REAL Progressive movment you have to start from the ground up. You have to build concensus in a base, you have to generate enthusiasm in the rank and file and you have to have candidates that share a common vision of America.

I had to double check to see if this was actually you posting- I don't disagree with this- the left in the United States needs to do the job of tying movements together- I didn't say do a better job because as far as I can tell there hasn't been too large of a push for it- it simply isn't happening. What are some things going on in the world right now that would be appropriate to approach with the intent of organizing? Student movements would be a big one- unemployment- housing rights- as far as I can see those three all go hand in hand.

The last part of the little paragraph you wrote I'll respond to by saying I don't think we need 'candidates' in the conventional sense but we need people that shine- we need good speakers- we need quiet people that are hella organized- we need fierce people in the streets when that time is appropriate we need friendly arms over our shoulders- we need calm and assertive people to handle info-out styled interviews with mainstream media- we need people comfortable quaterbacking door to door operations so on and so forth.




That doesn't exist in the Left right now. I'm not saying that there aren't some people that want that to happen--but I don't see people doing anything to make that happen. Nobody is going to just GIVE Progressives power--they have to take it like the Tea Party is trying to do. They went out and challenged the Republican power base. There is no reason that Progressives can't do the same for the Democrats.

These days it's really hard to distinguish between those who are confused and those who have a hidden agenda.

[RGacky3]

Gack--nobody's going to do it for you. If you want a REAL Progressive movment you have to start from the ground up. You have to build concensus in a base, you have to generate enthusiasm in the rank and file and you have to have candidates that share a common vision of America.


I absolutely agree, except for the candidate part, at least until we have public financing and other reforms that put a little democracy in the system.


That doesn't exist in the Left right now. I'm not saying that there aren't some people that want that to happen--but I don't see people doing anything to make that happen. Nobody is going to just GIVE Progressives power--they have to take it like the Tea Party is trying to do. They went out and challenged the Republican power base. There is no reason that Progressives can't do the same for the Democrats.

I totally agree again. Except the Tea Party had one thing that progressives don't, which is kind of a big deal, HUGE HUGE HUGE amounts of corporate money and corporate backing. Before the the tea party had that they were isignificant.

BTW, there ARE people trying to make it happen, lots and lots of people, but dollars speak louder than people.

You cannot look at the situation without looking at the context, which is the context of monied interests.

What the left has to do is stop supporting the democrats and they have to scare the hell out of them, btw you won't know when they are scared shitless, because the politicians will never admit that.

[Ele'ill]

What the left has to do is stop supporting the democrats and they have to scare the hell out of them, btw you won't know when they are scared shitless, because the politicians will never admit that.

It's important to remember that we've all grown up in an environment that encourages a submissive attitude towards positions of power and that even more importantly when pushing for massive socio-political change we cannot fall into the rut of bashful approval seeking. The ruling class will always portray their position as the correct position all the way up until they have fallen and even after their systems of oppression have been dismantled.

[Bud Struggle]

but dollars speak louder than people.


I agree with everything you say except this point. Committed people trump dollars (i.e. people bought by money) every time.

[RGacky3]

I agree with everything you say except this point. Committed people trump dollars (i.e. people bought by money) every time.

Well, it takes a lot of hard work, but history says that people can win over money. But heres what it always takes, a damn near revolution, you need militancy, and you need to scare the establishment, not just vote.

However nowerdays monied power is way way way more powerful than it was in the past, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

[Ele'ill]

Well, it takes a lot of hard work, but history says that people can win over money. But heres what it always takes, a damn near revolution, you need militancy, and you need to scare the establishment, not just vote.

However nowerdays monied power is way way way more powerful than it was in the past, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

The greatest threat to current power isn't necessarily the individual peripherals of a revolt but the beginning stages of a population's collective acknowledgement of autonomy. Wildcat strikes- spontaneous actions against systemic violence by the state (police, city ordinances etc) as seen in Portland and Oakland as examples- the seemingly ethereal student uprisings everywhere- the ability of one website, Wikileaks, to force entire governments into damage control mode.

We need to continue these tactics and abolish the ideas of borders in our minds- the new world will not function with borders and neither will revolutionary organizing and action.

[Bud Struggle]

The greatest threat to current power isn't necessarily the individual peripherals of a revolt but the beginning stages of a population's collective acknowledgement of autonomy. Wildcat strikes- spontaneous actions against systemic violence by the state (police, city ordinances etc) as seen in Portland and Oakland as examples- the seemingly ethereal student uprisings everywhere- the ability of one website, Wikileaks, to force entire governments into damage control mode.

We need to continue these tactics and abolish the ideas of borders in our minds- the new world will not function with borders and neither will revolutionary organizing and action.

Exactly. Stop hating. Start planning.

[Ele'ill]

Exactly. Stop hating. Start planning.


It's the hatred of our own forced condition that drives us to plan against the ruling class. I'd trade that spark for a bonfire any day. I think there has been planning and it's what has gotten us to where we're at- especially after the relatively recent death of the Global Justice Movement in the 90's. We're still here and you're right- there is a 'next big step' but I don't think it needs to be choreographed as intimately as you might think. I feel that there will be a breakthrough in tactical approach within the next year and it will have to do with abolishing the idea of borders with quite a touch of altruism.

[Bud Struggle]

It's the hatred of our own forced condition that drives us to plan against the ruling class. I'd trade that spark for a bonfire any day. I think there has been planning and it's what has gotten us to where we're at- especially after the relatively recent death of the Global Justice Movement in the 90's. We're still here and you're right- there is a 'next big step' but I don't think it needs to be choreographed as intimately as you might think. I feel that there will be a breakthrough in tactical approach within the next year and it will have to do with abolishing the idea of borders with quite a touch of altruism.

Nice analysis. :)

You are totally sublime in theory. Sublime in maybe to many theories, but your on the ground work is where you needf to improve.

Good Luck. :)

[Ele'ill]

Nice analysis. :)

You are totally sublime in theory. Sublime in maybe to many theories, but your on the ground work is where you needf to improve.

Good Luck. :)

Aren't all theories sublime?

[Jimmie Higgins]

And I agree it's not always totally fair. BUT your friends punishment (in my opinion--you may not agree) is fair. There should be rules against hit and run. (Actually it's uinfair to bring your friend into the picture--it's not about hte particular, it's about the general.)When my friend is involved in a freak accident and handles it poorly, the state decides it's best to throw him away for 7+ years, take away his right to vote, temporarily take away his ability to live where he wants when he gets out, reduce his ability to get a job on the outside, and pay for the victims medical bills and suffering. This one bad decision which was the result of a moment of being scared has more or less meant that my friend will live the rest of his life in constant debt on top of the remorse he naturally feels anyway.

Is that justice? What does it accomplish? How is this punishment going to protect people - my friend planned to drive around hitting people all day if he hadn't been arrested? As a deterrence? The fact that a judge thought it was too much of a punishment for a Wall Street guy who did the same thing is telling.

What does this current system accomplish? If it is judged on reducing crime rates, then empirically it is a failure. If it is to deter people from doing these acts, again it is an utter failure as the drug-war shows.

I argue it serves none of these ends, the only thing the prison system does increase the repressive powers of the state and blame widespread social problems of drug-abuse, crime, and random violence on individuals rather than attempting to solve these underlying social problems.


Quote: As to the methods in prisons, its a question of means and ends. If the end of the US prison system are just in your view then the bland food, collective punishment, solitary confinement, psychological abuse, racial segregation are just. It's the same if you lived in the USSR and wanted Russia to be a strong economic power - then I guess all of Stalin's methods were justified. Or the holocaust is justified if you think the NAZIs goal of a all-German empire was just. Or the war in Iraq is just if you think the US's ends were liberation and democracy, not occupation and imperialism.
Bit of a rant there, don't you think? The Prison system in the USA--may be bad, but it certainly isn't the HOLOCAUST! Geez get a grip.It's not as bad as the holocaust since the US prison system currently kills less people, but jim-crow isn't as bad as the holocaust either in terms of actual numbers of people killed by vigilante or KKK violence. My point wasn't to say X is as bad as Y but just to point out that if you are a Russian bureaucrat trying to make a strong national economy for the USSR... from that perspective, you have to break a few working class eggs to do that. NAZIs weren't vile and sadistic for the sake of it, from their perspective their violence and thuggery was necessary to break the working class resistance movements and destroy radical political ideas in Germany as well as eliminate different cultures. People who think the US was sincerely interested in peace likewise defend the dropping of the A-bombs in Japan.

So it's a question of means and ends. With prisons, the means (collective punishment, bland food, solitary confinement and so on) are not justified because the ends of this system is not justified. From my perspective this is because the goal of the system is social control and an ideological bulwark. But even from a capitalist perspective, the means and ends are not in harmony in regards to prisons because the real ends to not live up to their stated ends. They say racial segregation, collective punishment, restrictions on rights, and so on are justified because prisons act as a deterrent, reform people, or get social vengeance for victims are all demonstrateably false. The only thing the pro-prison people can argue is that crime would be "worse" without it - but this is just pure speculation.


That's the issue. Really. People have to make their own decisions how to live their lives. Every criminal DECIDES to commit a crime. If they make that decision, fine, they deserve what they get. On the other hand does society OWE people more opportunity--no. But is it in the interest of society to give people more opportunity--yes. It's good business. Business interests aren't doing a good job here and neither are people making good decisions for themselves.

Sorry but in the end it's a matter of INDIVIDUAL responsibility. People have to change their lives one by one--each person has to take responsibility from the ground up. Put down that crack pipe, start a business, get a job, vote. Then things will change.No they won't because that EXACTLY the situation we have set up to deal with crime right now... don't work too good does it!

First I hate this explanation because the vast majority of working class people are more than responcible - in fact on top of dealing with their own personal responsibilities in this society, they have to beyond that and take on things that tradditionally have been social responsibilities. As I said before the prison and police system serves an ideological function and part of that is to make the poor seem irresponsible - thus crime in poor areas and poverty are the fault of the victims of these things, not the result of social neglect and economic inequalities.

Second, do you think every German lining in Germany in the 1930s and 40s is responsible for the holocaust? Why didn't all those German soldiers who weren't even NAZIs stop the trains? People can not just act as they want irregardless to the situations they find themselves in. Individual Germans could not take "personal responsibility" for German antisemitism, it would have taken active organizing by anti-fascists to build a resistance and fight that order of society. Just wishing for an end to antisemitism would not have cut it.


Without that individual responsibility--neither Capitalist Democracy or Communism will ever work. There seem to be a failure in the human spirit for such things. The Proletariat doesn't need a Revolution to be free--only a voter ballot. When in order to afford an apartment, food, and clothing for kids, parents have to take multiple jobs, work long hours, or have a both parents working... the parent's "personal responsibility" of raising their kids is no longer really under their control. When you live in a community where young men have 30-40% chronic unemployment, people making money through the black market is no longer a simple matter of "personal responsibility".

The problem with capitalism is that it makes this idealist demand of "personal responsibility". First it is a highly hypocritical demand in a society that lets companies BP police itself and where pushing poor people onto the street by banks (who took public money to cover their "personal responsibilities") is not only responcible but necessary business. Second, in order to have personal responcibility, individuals would have to have total control over factors in their lives: since where and how much we work, how we live, how much rent costs and so on are not under either individual or democratic control, it is an insane argument to say that there really is personal responsibility in these societies.

Socialism and communism seek to allow for real personal control and responsibility over our own lives because we see these problems as not stemming from poor choices or biological defects or racial inferiority, but from the structure and nature of our society. To get rid of slavery what do you do? Ask slave-masters to take "personal responsibility" or do you change the structures and power-base of that society to eliminate slavery?

[Bud Struggle]

When my friend is involved in a freak accident and handles it poorly, the state decides it's best to throw him away for 7+ years, take away his right to vote, temporarily take away his ability to live where he wants when he gets out, reduce his ability to get a job on the outside, and pay for the victims medical bills and suffering. This one bad decision which was the result of a moment of being scared has more or less meant that my friend will live the rest of his life in constant debt on top of the remorse he naturally feels anyway. But that's the law. If your friend has problems with the legal system for using public roads--he doesn't have to drive. When he takes his car out on the road he is tacitly agreeing to whatever rules and stipulation hold for whatever he decides to do.

I'm not saying the law is perfect--and maybe for your friend it didn't work very well, but the law wasn't made just for your friend. It covers everyone and has to cover a road spectrum of hit and runs. I'm not saying it's perfect, but he did hit that person and instead of taking responsibility and letting the law take it's course, he took the law into his own hands. So now (I guess) by fleeing he claimed full responsibility for the hit and run. Maybe the law didn't apply perfectly to your friend--but laws have to apply to everyone.


Is that justice? What does it accomplish? How is this punishment going to protect people - my friend planned to drive around hitting people all day if he hadn't been arrested? As a deterrence? The fact that a judge thought it was too much of a punishment for a Wall Street guy who did the same thing is telling. I'm sure he didn't mean to do it--and really that's what the court system is all about. Those things should have been told to a jury and then they should have taken the extenuating circumstances into account. I have no idea why they didn't.


What does this current system accomplish? If it is judged on reducing crime rates, then empirically it is a failure. If it is to deter people from doing these acts, again it is an utter failure as the drug-war shows. These laws were passed by YOUR state legislature that YOU elected. You can ALWAYS petition your elected official to change the law if you feel it is unfair. Lots of people complain about things--but few go through the bother of actually going about the hard work of doing something about it. In my business I often talk to county and state officials (mostly about zoning and tax codes) and I always find them quite willing to help.



So it's a question of means and ends. With prisons, the means (collective punishment, bland food, solitary confinement and so on) are not justified because the ends of this system is not justified. From my perspective this is because the goal of the system is social control and an ideological bulwark. But even from a capitalist perspective, the means and ends are not in harmony in regards to prisons because the real ends to not live up to their stated ends. They say racial segregation, collective punishment, restrictions on rights, and so on are justified because prisons act as a deterrent, reform people, or get social vengeance for victims are all demonstrateably false. The only thing the pro-prison people can argue is that crime would be "worse" without it - but this is just pure speculation.

No they won't because that EXACTLY the situation we have set up to deal with crime right now... don't work too good does it! Most people don't commit crimes and most that do commit crimes aren't life your friend--no doubt a pretty decent guy that got caught up in the system. Most are in jail from REAL crimes against peoploe and property. I don't think society on the whole gives too much of a damn what happens to these people. The average WORKING CLASS guy is much more at risk from the people that go to prison than any Capitalist. They rather they are out of their neighborhoods.



First I hate this explanation because the vast majority of working class people are more than responcible - in fact on top of dealing with their own personal responsibilities in this society, they have to beyond that and take on things that tradditionally have been social responsibilities. As I said before the prison and police system serves an ideological function and part of that is to make the poor seem irresponsible - thus crime in poor areas and poverty are the fault of the victims of these things, not the result of social neglect and economic inequalities.
I was in grad school in the East Village in NYC when crack came through the Black community--in the '80s. It devistated the community--you can talk about freedom of choice and all that--but the quality of life for those peole that didn't take drugs suffered greatly. The police going after drug trafficers and users uas as a result of COMMUNITY PRESSURE not because some Capitalist wanted to control what was going on over there. The Rich were in their highrises with their security systems and their rent a cops.

The community wanted laws against drugs--and that's how all that came about.

[ComradeMan]

I was in grad school in the East Village in NYC when crack came through the Black community--in the '80s. It devistated the community--you can talk about freedom of choice and all that--but the quality of life for those peole that didn't take drugs suffered greatly. The police going after drug trafficers and users uas as a result of COMMUNITY PRESSURE not because some Capitalist wanted to control what was going on over there. The Rich were in their highrises with their security systems and their rent a cops.

The community wanted laws against drugs--and that's how all that came about.

Oh but that would be reactionary to even suggest that the community wouldn't want drug laws, despite the devastation of the community.

I wonder who was putting the drugs into the ghetto though?

But still--- seems like real-life stories aren't important here.

[Bud Struggle]

Oh but that would be reactionary to even suggest that the community wouldn't want drug laws, despite the devastation of the community. These Commies are going to get quite a suprise if they ever have their Revolution and let people decide how they want their communities run. :D


I wonder who was putting the drugs into the ghetto though?I don't think it matters who put them there--if people buy them and screw up their lives--fine. If they screw up OTHER PEOPLE'S lives--then there is a communirt backlash--and it won't be pretty.


But still--- seems like real-life stories aren't important here. :(

[RGacky3]

Oh but that would be reactionary to even suggest that the community wouldn't want drug laws, despite the devastation of the community.

I wonder who was putting the drugs into the ghetto though?

But still--- seems like real-life stories aren't important here.

All most all of the problems that have to do with drugs in ghettos are with the illigalization of drugs. Otherwise its the same as alcohol or tobacco, where the problem is more personal and is everywhere (regardless of social status). People, even people in the ghetto, are smart enough to see that.

[Ele'ill]

These Commies are going to get quite a suprise if they ever have their Revolution and let people decide how they want their communities run. :D

Most of the peripheral violence and negative activity associated with drugs won't have the environment and thus the causes to exist. If someone wants to boot up in their house they're going to- if someone wants to smoke trom on their porch they're going to. It's the case now anyways with drugs being banned essentially for profit.




I don't think it matters who put them there--if people buy them and screw up their lives--fine. If they screw up OTHER PEOPLE'S lives--then there is a communirt backlash--and it won't be pretty.

But you're describing a situation that is current times- with a multi million if not billion dollar war on drugs foreign and domestic- it's happening anyways.

Why does OI approach this issue as if there currently isn't a ban on drugs?



:(

Yeah, have you heard, some kids stole his scooter and they're obviously drug addicts that support cartels directly via charity. :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

Most of the peripheral violence and negative activity associated with drugs won't have the environment and thus the causes to exist. If someone wants to boot up in their house they're going to- if someone wants to smoke trom on their porch they're going to. It's the case now anyways with drugs being banned essentially for profit. There was an entire generation of black Men that just disappeared. And it wasn't about money--the entire social fabric of Black families and the Black community just vanished. The effects are still being felt today. There is definitely racism in America--but a lot of what is happening to black children and the Black community stems from the crack explosion of the 70s and 80s.


But you're describing a situation that is current times- with a multi million if not billion dollar war on drugs foreign and domestic- it's happening anyways. As I said the severe law against Crack possession and distribution were response to Community pressure. That's why they are so much harsher than those on plain coke.

[Ele'ill]

There was an entire generation of black Men that just disappeared. And it wasn't about money--the entire social fabric of Black families and the Black community just vanished. The effects are still being felt today. There is definitely racism in America--but a lot of what is happening to black children and the Black community stems from the crack explosion of the 70s and 80s.

Thanks for the reply but I think it ignores what I originally posted. What class background did those most affected by crack have? I think that's part of the problem if not the biggest problem right there. Poverty will make you do things you never imagined you would- just to escape. The education simply isn't available and not approached in a constructive manner.


As I said the severe law against Crack possession and distribution were response to Community pressure. That's why they are so much harsher than those on plain coke.

Banning individual drugs is, believe it or not, treating a symptom of a much larger problem. You can't ignore the demographics.

[Bud Struggle]

Thanks for the reply but I think it ignores what I originally posted. What class background did those most affected by crack have? I think that's part of the problem if not the biggest problem right there. Poverty will make you do things you never imagined you would- just to escape. The education simply isn't available and not approached in a constructive manner. That's were we disagree--I certainly was brought up poor enough. You have to take responsibility for your own life no matter what the conditions outside are.


Banning individual drugs is, believe it or not, treating a symptom of a much larger problem. You can't ignore the demographics. The democraphics for Crack is Black. The white poor never really hit with the drug in any substantive way.

[Ele'ill]

That's were we disagree--I certainly was brought up poor enough. You have to take responsibility for your own life no matter what the conditions outside are.

And here you are addicted to internet forums. (joke)

We can't visit anecdotes though. I'll say that some people get through but the vast majority don't. I don't think that this is an arguable point.

This issue immediatly opens like an umbrella- you have to address everything from poverty to mental health and find the relations (which there are plenty)




The democraphics for Crack is Black. The white poor never really hit with the drug in any substantive way.

I haven't done a fact check on this but if this were the case why do you think it is? Certainly it would have to do with where the demographics are concentrated in population. What about meth?

[RGacky3]

The democraphics for Crack is Black. The white poor never really hit with the drug in any substantive way.

They have Meth, but again theres way of proving that at all. Take pot for example, way more black people are in prison for possession and use type crimes with pot, yet studies show that percentage wise white people smoke more pot, the difference is, cops don't patrol white (middle class or wealthy) neighborhoods, so white (middle class or wealthy) kids don't get caught, even though they smoke more weed, black kids get caught even though they smoke less weed because cops patrol black neighborhoods a lot.


You have to take responsibility for your own life no matter what the conditions outside are.


Fine, but that does'nt mean we should'nt try and change the conditions (seeing as conditions are a GIANT part of the equation), and one of those conditions is the inhumane and brutal prison system.

[Bud Struggle]

They have Meth, but again theres way of proving that at all. Take pot for example, way more black people are in prison for possession and use type crimes with pot, yet studies show that percentage wise white people smoke more pot, the difference is, cops don't patrol white (middle class or wealthy) neighborhoods, so white (middle class or wealthy) kids don't get caught, even though they smoke more weed, black kids get caught even though they smoke less weed because cops patrol black neighborhoods a lot. I agree. I never saw the meth problem (it was just where I was at the time.) But I suppose it is much the same. And you are righ about wealthy kids--the police ARE their friends. I'm the first to agree that the laws on pot useage should be abolished. It's just stupid to go to jail for five years for a joint.


Fine, but that does'nt mean we should'nt try and change the conditions (seeing as conditions are a GIANT part of the equation), and one of those conditions is the inhumane and brutal prison system. I agree we whould work to change things--I do think the most important part is personal responsibilitym though.

[Revolution starts with U]

I have no problem with strong drug laws as long as their are protections's of one's rights to take drugs responsibly (meaning no trouble just because you have/used the drug) and the laws treat drugs as a medical issue, rather than a criminal one.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe the law didn't apply perfectly to your friend--but laws have to apply to everyone.Except for OJ Simpson, BP, and that investor who had a hit and run and the judge said it would cause hardships for him to be charged (for the same crime as my friend).

Second this ignores a whole system of inequality that leads all the way up to sentancing. You can't tell me there isn't just as much alcohol and drug abuse and rape on a college frat row (probably more rape in this case) than most working class/working-poor apartment block. You also can't tell me that police treat college people or tourists in tourist areas who are drunk the same as some random working class guy. On the subway, Oscar Grant was shot for supposedly being in a fight. I work near a college and see tons of drunken rowdiness and fights on Saturday nights or after a big game - I've even seen students being abusive to cops and the police treat them as humans. It's a totally different story for the kids in Oakland - one toe over the line, one sideways glance and they are in the back of a police car.


These laws were passed by YOUR state legislature that YOU elected. You can ALWAYS petition your elected official to change the law if you feel it is unfair. Lots of people complain about things--but few go through the bother of actually going about the hard work of doing something about it. In my business I often talk to county and state officials (mostly about zoning and tax codes) and I always find them quite willing to help. Petitioning really doesn't do much IMO because as I argued earlier, I think there is an ideological reason for prisons and the justice system that go beyond either the stated reasons of "keeping people safe" or other views of why the system exists like "the prison industrial complex". Prisons are not simply policy: if it was a matter of the state simply trying to control crime, then an honest look at the system shows it is an utter failure at either rehabilitation or reducing crime rates.

But I think there's a kernel here I agree with which is that the answer is organizing against the prison system and I support all efforts to get rid of 3 strikes laws, decriminalization of drugs in favor of treatment programs, ending profiling by the police, and re-outlawing the death penalty in the US. But it's not a slight or easy task - because the justice system is so rooted in the US capitalist system and because it is also warped up in the modern face of systemic racism, I think it will take something much like the civil rights movement to actually make significant and long-lasting reforms to they system.


Most people don't commit crimes and most that do commit crimes aren't life your friend--no doubt a pretty decent guy that got caught up in the system. Most are in jail from REAL crimes against people and property. I don't think society on the whole gives too much of a damn what happens to these people. The average WORKING CLASS guy is much more at risk from the people that go to prison than any Capitalist. They rather they are out of their neighborhoods. There are assholes inside as well as outside, but does it really help to lock people up? Again, no - crime is not reduced, petty criminals are more likely to become life-time criminals because of prison associations, institutionalized gang presence inside and a lack of opportunities once they are released, it is not a deterrent and it doesn't keep anyone safe.

Are working class people more at risk from criminals than the capitalist system. Well first since property crime can only exist in a system like capitalism, since people turn to making money on the black market because of lack of job opportunities or a stable income, since economic stress and unstable living situations basically cause many people to flip-out, become sociopaths, or seek oblivion through hard drugs and alcohol... I'd say that without capitalism many of the petty crimes that hit working class people wouldn't even exist. Second, while I've had my car broken into twice and have had one altercation with a stranger, as someone who'se lived in working class areas all my life, I'd say that things like my dad being drafted in Vietnam or being laid off in 2001 had a much greater and long-lasting effect than paying $250 to get car windows and a stereo replaced. Being kicked out of my apartment after I got laid off seperated me from more of my personal possessions (since I had to dump all my furniture and sell as much as I could) than even a team of burgalers could haul-off.

Violent crimes and their impact shouldn't be dismissed, but it's obvious that prisons are not the answer because if they were, the US would be much safer than places with fewer prisons, but it's just the opposite.


I was in grad school in the East Village in NYC when crack came through the Black community--in the '80s. It devistated the community--you can talk about freedom of choice and all that--but the quality of life for those peole that didn't take drugs suffered greatly. The police going after drug trafficers and users uas as a result of COMMUNITY PRESSURE not because some Capitalist wanted to control what was going on over there. The Rich were in their highrises with their security systems and their rent a cops.

The community wanted laws against drugs--and that's how all that came about.Your assumption is that it is either ignore crime or keep the present system in place. Crack was only one symptom of a larger problem of the de-industrialization of working class urban areas and a massive loss of jobs. Crack became big business and as I said in an earlier post, even the Crips had a better answer to the crack problem than the LAPD: decent public housing, job placement, public oversight of the police. It wasn't police repression and SWAT and gang units that ultimately actually reduced violent crime, it was a truce organized by the gangs themselves.