Share your opinion of Makhno

[Black Sheep]

Backed with sources and without trollish one-liners, if possible :)

[Magón]

By simply just reading this little excerpt, Makhno is badass. (And plus all the other stuff I've read on him.


While in Moscow, Makhno met with Lenin. This meeting came about by chance. Visiting the Kremlin to obtain a permit for free board and lodging, he met the chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee of the Soviets, Jakov M. Sverdlov, who arranged for Makhno to meet Lenin. Lenin asked Makhno, "How did the peasants of your region understand the slogan ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS IN THE VILLAGES?" Makhno states that Lenin "was astonished" at his reply:

"The peasants understood this slogan in their own way. According to their interpretation, all power, in all areas of life, must be identified with the consciousness and will of the working people. The peasants understand that the soviets of workers and peasants of village, country and district are neither more nor less than the means of revolutionary organisation and economic self-management of working people in the struggle against the bourgeoisie and its lackeys, the Right socialists and their coalition government."

To this Lenin replied: "Well, then, the peasants of your region are infected with anarchism!" [4] Later in the interview, Lenin stated: "Do the anarchists ever recognise their lack of realism in present-day life? Why, they don't even think of it." Makhno replied:

"But I must tell you, comrade Lenin, that your assertion that the anarchists don't understand 'the present' realistically, that they have no real connection with it and so forth, is fundamentally mistaken. The anarchist-communists in the Ukraine . . . the anarchist-communists, I say, have already given many proofs that they are firmly planted in 'the present.' The whole struggle of the revolutionary Ukrainian countryside against the Central Rada has been carried out under the ideological guidance of the anarchist-communists and also in part by the Socialist Revolutionaries . . . Your Bolsheviks have scarcely any presence in our villages. Where they have penetrated, their influence is minimal. Almost all the communes or peasant associations in the Ukraine were formed at the instigation of the anarchist-communists. The armed struggle of the working people against the counter-revolution in general and the Austro-German invasion in particular has been undertaken with the ideological and organic guidance of the anarchist-communists exclusively.

"Certainly it is not in your party's interest to give us credit for all this, but these are the facts and you can't dispute them. You know perfectly well, I assume, the effective force and the fighting capacity of the free, revolutionary forces of the Ukraine. It is not without reason that you have evoked the courage with which they have heroically defended the common revolutionary conquests. Among them, at least one half have fought under the anarchist banner. . .
"All this shows how mistaken you are, comrade Lenin, in alleging that we, the anarchist-communists, don't have our feet on the ground, that our attitude towards 'the present' is deplorable and that we are too fond of dreaming about the future. What I have said to you in the course of this interview cannot be questioned because it is the truth. The account which I have made to you contradicts the conclusions you expressed about us. Everyone can see we are firmly planted in 'the present,' that we are working and searching for the means to bring about the future we desire, and that we are in fact dealing very seriously with this problem."

Lenin replied: "Perhaps I am mistaken."

Link to the article. (http://libcom.org/history/makhno-nestor-1889-1934)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I'm currently reading Anarchy's Cossack by Alexandre Skirda. It's an amazing book on the subject, I read about that interview in the book.

This guy escaped death more than ten times. The greatest Anarchist this world has seen.

[Dire Helix]

None of the books and documents on Lenin`s biography contain any mention of the supposed meeting between Makhno and Lenin or their conversation. Makhno also claimed to have met Kropotkin and bragged about the "warm welcome" he gave him. To what extent all of this is true is unknown. All of this comes from Makhno`s memoirs and isn`t mentioned anywhere else(to my knowledge at least; feel free to correct me if i`m wrong).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

None of the books and documents on Lenin`s biography contain any mention of the supposed meeting between Makhno and Lenin or their conversation. Makhno also claimed to have met Kropotkin and bragged about the "warm welcome" he gave him. To what extent all of this is true is unknown. All of this comes from Makhno`s memoirs and isn`t mentioned anywhere else(to my knowledge at least; feel free to correct me if i`m wrong).

Both of these events are in the Alexandre Skirda book.

[Dire Helix]

Skirda used Makhno`s works as a source.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The most effective vehicle for communization is a horse-drawn cart . . . with a machine-gun on it.

(Or, at least in that context . . . arguably, the current weapon-of-choice is a motorcycle)

[Luc]

So far I'm a huge fan of Makhno and the R.I.A.U. (Revolutionary Insurrection Army of the Ukraine) but there are some things that are rather unsettling,

Voline said in The Uknown Revolution,

"Makhno and of many of his intimates -- both commanders and others... let themselves indulge in shameful and even odious activities, going as far as orgies in which certain women were forced to participate."

I don't care if people have orgies but the second part sounds like rape...

Though there is no proof (and there are more reasons that dismiss this claim on the wikipedia page for Makhno) when it comes to rape I would take it very seriously (we can't dismiss it as a lie between two people that dislike each other) and I am currently trying to find any other sources that says "woman were forced to participate" in anything sexual.

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me if any leaders or armed forces like guerillas or the RIAU would of raped anyone (this seems to happen alot in any place) and if this is proven I will definitley hate Makhno as much as I do Lenin, Stalin and Guevara.

Besides the rape, allegations of attacks on menonites and anti-semitism (the other two are preety much disproven/explained on wikipedia) I think Makhno is a great leader and I would call him Batko anyday.

Also, in Nestor Makhno-Anarchy's Cossack: The Struggle for free Soviets in the Ukraine 1917-1921, is this talked about?

I hope it's all a lie.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Never mind, Blackscare set my worries straight

[Zanthorus]

With regards to the supposed meeting between Lenin and Mahkno, I believe RedScare1917 is correct, and this was backed up as well by ComradeOm who was certainly more than familiar with the literature on the subject, that there is no non-Anarchist source for the event. You'd think something like that would've been mentioned by at least one of the other leading Bolsheviks in a diary or something but as far as I'm aware no Soviet sources hint at the occurence of the meeting.

As for the Mahknovist movement itself, stories of daring bravery may be inspiring and all, but the real question is whether the movement could ever have provided a stable alternative to Bolshevik rule. On that score Paul Avrich, by no means a pro-Bolshevik writer, is interesting:


During October and November, Makhno occupied Ekaterinoslav and Aleksandrovsk for several weeks, and thus obtained his first chance to apply the concepts of anarchism to city life...

Makhno's aim was to throw off domination of every type and to encourage economic and social self-determination. "It is up to the workers and peasants," said one of his proclamations in 1919, "to organize themselves and reach mutual understandings in all areas of their lives and in whatever manner they think right." In October 1919, an SR speaker who called for effective leadership at a Congress of Workers and Peasants in Aleksandrovsk was greeted with shouts of protest from the Makhnovtsy: "We have had enough of your leaders. Always leaders and more leaders. Let us try to do without them for once.":" When the railroad workers of Aleksandrovsk complained that they had not been paid for many weeks, Makhno advised them to take control of the railway lines and charge the passengers and freight shippers what seemed a fair price for their services.

Makhno's utopian projects, however, failed to win over more than a small minority of workingmen, for, unlike the farmers and artisans of the village, who were independent producers accustomed to managing their own affairs, factory workers and miners operated as interdependent parts of a complicated industrial machine, and were lost without the guidance of supervisors and technical specialists. Furthermore, the peasants and artisans could barter the products of their labor, whereas the urban workers depended on regular wages for their survival. Makhno, moreover, compounded the confusion when he recognized all paper money issued by his predecessors-Ukrainian nationalists, Whites, and Bolsheviks alike. He never understood the complexities of an urban economy, nor did he care to understand them. He detested the "poison" of the cities and cherished the natural simplicity of the peasant environment into which he had been born.

[Misanthrope]

Not another Makhno vs Lenin thread.... All I have to say is neither man is the messiah his side claims them to be. Both have committed "anti-worker" actions and both have done some good things for the workers movement.

[Zanthorus]

Not another Makhno vs Lenin thread.

I'm sorry, who here is engaging in a 'Makhno vs Lenin' argument?

[Blackscare]

einfach: It's worth noting that Voline was a rabid opportunist and a liar, prone to exaggerating his own exploits while slandering others. Read "The Unknown Revolution", it drips with self indulgence.


In truth, Voline was a "paper revolutionary" as Makhno put it, he had very little connection with the working class and only spent a period of a few months with the Makhnovists. Voline did not make a habit of treating the movement fairly, and I wouldn't trust him at all.


I'm not saying that there aren't fair critiques to be had, but Voline is not a trustworthy source.

[Luc]

Ah I see, thank you Blackscare I probably should of actually read The Unknown Revolution and more about Voline.

My fault!

[Luc]

Hey Zanthorus, what is that from? (book? essay? articule? etc.) and where could I find it? It does sound interesting and I would love to read it.

(sorry for being off topic Blacksheep)

[Blackscare]

Yea, that said the Unknown revolution is pretty damn good at times, when not dealing directly with Voline. The bits about Father Gapon and especially the cultural role of the Nihilist wave that preceded the revolutionary days in Russia are pretty good.

[Zanthorus]

Hey Zanthorus, what is that from?

It's from Avrich's account of the Russian Anarchist movement, quite predictably titled 'The Russian Anarchists'. You can read the whole thing online here:

http://libcom.org/history/russian-anarchists-paul-avrich

[Luc]

Great! Thank you, I shall read this A.S.A.P.