Solidarity Now

[Elect Marx]

I have found a large group of productive leftists here at Che-Lives but a large obstacle exists within our community and I would like to see the people of Che-Lives find a solution.

While posting Marxism vs. Religion, I received a wide range of positive feedback and had reasonable debate to a point. My entire reason for posting the tread was to unite leftists, mostly (Marxist/communists), but my feedback was corrupted in a way that is all too common. Instead of debate and critical analysis of my concept promoting solidarity, my discussion was refocused on irrelevant specifics of Marxism. I was glad to debate the specifics of the concept and I agreed with most of the points made being made but after a point in the debate, my interpretation and willingness to discuss my understanding of Marxism was not longer tolerated. The responses to my critiques were: quotes without explanation coupled with a dogmatic lack of interpretation and objectivity. When I pointed this out, I received tactical character deformation in the form of Insults and labeling, just as is done by the far right. This is destructive to our movement because if we want to influence the working class and create a just society we cannot be attacking our own people for personal agendas. If we persist in this self-righteous and destructive method, we will drive away all interest in our activities. I see these acts as a threat to the progress at Che-Lives and I ask for the support of my fellow leftists, to recognize the hypocrisy of reactionary tactics used in the guise of leftist practice.

During the argument, I recognized a clear-minded mediator attempting to demonstrate solidarity and show the similarities of the positions presented. I thank Comrade Victorcommie for being an objective and constructive participant and I would like to see more people acting to strengthen our leftist resolve. I am sorry to say, I could not respond with such diplomacy but when my convictions as a communist are questioned, I become rather hostile.

I believe many people, new to Che-Lives, will not speak up when the forum is being abused through leftist concepts to support a person’s ego and belittle others. I find this unacceptable and again,

I call all leftists here to show solidarity and support class struggle.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

thank you comarde, i'm always glad to contribute to a good topic such as yours. You make a very valid point. The left is going nowhere unless we can at least be united within our own faction. Like comarde EM said, we are on the same side of this conflict, we are all fighting for the working class against the ruling capitalist class. However, we cannot compromise with bourgeois notions that plague the left such as reformism. We must stay true to our principles, and not follow others just because they are on the same side of the political scale. We must always remember that what we are fighting for is the emancipation of the proletariat.

Communists that resort to personal insults need to grow up. Che-lives, i believe, serves the purpose of resolving conflicts among leftists so that we can be better prepared when some sort action is to be taken. Insulting remarks are extremely counter-productive to this goal, as they do nothing but cause further conflict among the left.

good call, comarade

[CompadreGuerrillera]

excellent post comrade!


And i thought i was alone on my quest for Solidarity and Unity.
We..I am very glad to have you in the community.

I support this every step of the way.

rock on man!

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade 313C7 iVi4RX,
I agree completely. I get sick of seeing dogmatic communists spend more time arguing with one another rather than preparing for the revolution and attacking capitalism. Sadly, there are individuals on this forum that must constantly battle one another... sectarian communists vs. sectarian anarchists... Trots vs. Stalin... Leninists vs. Anti-Leninists... Marxists vs. who they consider pseudo-Marxists...

Both sides repeat quotes from the leftist of their choice, often without trying to defend them. I see Leninists here, an example--I happen to admire Lenin, who will thump State and Revolution like a Baptist would thump the Bible. Another dogmatic leftist of another persuasion will counter with their "prophet" of choice. A flame war ensues... and what does this accomplish? Nothing!

Was Marx divine? How about Proudhon, Bakunin, Goldman, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, or Castro? Of course not. Then why must so many treat their every word as some kind of infallible gospel truth? It is important that we keep our minds open, because one can be surprised where great information can be found sometimes...

[Elect Marx]

Thanks comrades, I am glad my call for solidarity was so clearly recieved. I hope this will be a sign of progress on Che-Lives. United as leftists, we can always make it better!

[Sensitive]

I guess the most important thing that Marxists need to do is try to build a decent sized party (here in the US).

313C7 iVi4RX, Marxist in Nebraska and myself all live in the same city. Maybe we could start a branch of a national party here and help organize. I was thinking we could build a Communist Party USA branch for Lincoln Nebraska. I was reading the CPUSA website, and you don't even have to be a Marxist to join the party, it sounds pretty easy going and I think we could build up nicely. And they are also part of the huge coalition of communist parties (including Communist Party of Cuba).

I just sent you (Marxist in Nebraska) a private message. And I also found this really old PM you sent me on July 29, which I had not read yet, I replied to that one as well. Hope to hear from you soon.

313C7 iVi4RX, do you like the idea? I could send you the same text I PM'd Marxist in Nebraska if you like.

Hope to hear from you guys soon.

[highway star]

congratulations comrade.i am glad to see u in our community.i am agree with u .if we wanna achieve we must show solidarity.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade Sensitive, my fellow Nebraskan, is quite right about needing a mass party. We most certainly do not need to factionalize any further than we already have. I have seen on this site that there are dozens of Trotskyite parties even within the same country. It is one thing to have serious debate on the question of what is to be done, but it is quite another for communists supposedly following the same ideology to form pseudo-religious sects and argue dogma even within the same theory (e.g. Trotskyism). I have now made my second call for unity on this thread...

Getting back to Comrade Sensitive's post, I do not know much about CP-USA. I wonder if any of my comrades here can tell me more about them. I would appreciate it.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Getting back to Comrade Sensitive's post, I do not know much about CP-USA. I wonder if any of my comrades here can tell me more about them. I would appreciate it.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=4&t=16188 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=16188)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 08:45 PM

Getting back to Comrade Sensitive's post, I do not know much about CP-USA. I wonder if any of my comrades here can tell me more about them. I would appreciate it.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=4&t=16188 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=16188)
Thanks, Comrade Victorcommie...

[praxis1966]

If I might interject here, I don't think the formation of a new CPUSA chapter in your hometown is necessarily the right direction in which to go. Instead, maybe you could just form an activist organisation. Perhaps something akin to the old Peace and Freedom Party, or Students for a Democratic Society.

I have attempted to do something similar in the past, and you would be surprised at how easy it is. All you need is some galvanizing event or issue to serve as a rallying point. Something that the populus at large can relate to. In my case, I got together a music fest/rally in support of the Oct. 22nd Coalition's National Day of Protest to End Police Brutality. In my relatively small and very conservative town, we managed to gather about 350 kids in a downtown park around a central issue.

Believe me, it's not as hard as you think. Besides, if you start you're own organisation instead of joining someone else's, you can make up you're own rules. If you have any further interest let me know. Our organisation fizzled out later, but not for lack of interest. I would hate to think someone else made the same mistakes as us.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 09:25 PM
If I might interject here, I don't think the formation of a new CPUSA chapter in your hometown is necessarily the right direction in which to go. Instead, maybe you could just form an activist organisation. Perhaps something akin to the old Peace and Freedom Party, or Students for a Democratic Society.

I have attempted to do something similar in the past, and you would be surprised at how easy it is. All you need is some galvanizing event or issue to serve as a rallying point. Something that the populus at large can relate to. In my case, I got together a music fest/rally in support of the Oct. 22nd Coalition's National Day of Protest to End Police Brutality. In my relatively small and very conservative town, we managed to gather about 350 kids in a downtown park around a central issue.

Believe me, it's not as hard as you think. Besides, if you start you're own organisation instead of joining someone else's, you can make up you're own rules. If you have any further interest let me know. Our organisation fizzled out later, but not for lack of interest. I would hate to think someone else made the same mistakes as us.
I have never heard of the Peace and Freedom Party, and I am unfamiliar with Students for a Democratic Society. I think I have heard of the latter...

I like the part about making up my own constitution and rules... not that I mean to be a control freak, of course...

I do certainly have further interest... by the way, where are you from, Comrade praxis1966?

[elijahcraig]

blah blah blah, you are an idiot. United? With someone who thinks Marx was a pro-theistic Anarchist? :lol:

[Palmares]

I have always been for unity, but solidarity is a form of dogmatism.

In the past I tried to rally for unity, but most seemed resistant.

I am happy to see this thread, and from this I suggest we forget about 'ism's besides socialism because that itself forms disunity.

I think back, and Kamo was the one who gave me hope.

I ask this however, what are your conceptions of "Stalinist"s in unity?

[CompadreGuerrillera]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 02:55 AM
blah blah blah, you are an idiot. United? With someone who thinks Marx was a pro-theistic Anarchist? :lol:
you elijah, i now consider a traitor to the revoluiton!, you dont want unity, u want disunity. You are not wililng to cooperate with our bretheren, for the same goals, the same purpose:PRGORESS!

You are a traitor and a hinderance to progress! You of course, are entitiled to your opinion, because unlike you, us for unity, want complete freedom, so unlike you we wont try and stop you. You should consider yourself a disgrace to the cause, You CANNOT trully be a revolutionary You POSER!

I am horrified, pretty soon you will see.

And in fact perhaps you are the FBI sent to cause factions and isms and disunity within revolutionary "organizations"

I wouldnt be surprised.

If first impressions mean everything, yours is quite bad.

my 2 fucken cents!

[elijahcraig]

you elijah, i now consider a traitor to the revoluiton!, you dont want unity, u want disunity. You are not wililng to cooperate with our bretheren, for the same goals, the same purpose:PRGORESS!

Oh no... :lol:

Anyone who thinks Marx was an Anarchist is not my comrade.

What revolution?


You are a traitor and a hinderance to progress! You of course, are entitiled to your opinion, because unlike you, us for unity, want complete freedom, so unlike you we wont try and stop you. You should consider yourself a disgrace to the cause, You CANNOT trully be a revolutionary You POSER!

How am I a "poser"? I argue for Marxism, not anarchism, not revisionism, not tolerance of ignorance...but Marxism! The man in your avatar did not tolerate counter-revolutionaries and neither do I. Is Che also a "traitor"?


And in fact perhaps you are the FBI sent to cause factions and isms and disunity within revolutionary "organizations"

A paranoid communist, never though I'd see that. :lol:





my 2 fucken cents!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Like I said, Elijah, we must not unite with reactionaries. Compromise is the last thing we want. The point we are trying to make is that the only way to succesfuly counter the bourgeoisie is if we are united. The goal here, comrade, is to take the power for those who create the power, but alone, a member of the working class is little, but united with his proletarian brotheren, they are the most powerful force, no matter how many resources and how much money the bourgeoisie has managed to reap from the people and their labor. This is why we must be united.
WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!

[redstar2000]

313C7 iVi4RX, it seems to me that the "worst" thing that happened in the thread you mentioned was that elijahcraig insulted you.

He does that to everybody. It's really not a big deal or a symptom of the problems of the left or anything like that.

The best response is to reply to his political points and just ignore his insults.

313C7 iVi4RX, Marxist in Nebraska, and Sensitive: Please listen to Praxis1966!

The "Communist" Party USA is an absolutely wretched organization.

Start your own group; make your own mistakes.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 05:18 AM
313C7 iVi4RX, it seems to me that the "worst" thing that happened in the thread you mentioned was that elijahcraig insulted you.

He does that to everybody. It's really not a big deal or a symptom of the problems of the left or anything like that.

The best response is to reply to his political points and just ignore his insults.

313C7 iVi4RX, Marxist in Nebraska, and Sensitive: Please listen to Praxis1966!

The "Communist" Party USA is an absolutely wretched organization.

Start your own group; make your own mistakes.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas
redstar2000, I understand your point. I knew this point would be made and I would gladly ignore elijahcraig while continuing, as long as I could. The insults were not my biggest concern, he may insult me and call me names for all I care but this hurts our movement more than it hurts me. This turns away people that see a divided and petty left. As far as debate goes, I am done debating with him. I tried to reason with him but all I received was rhetoric and insulting arrogance. This may be more hurtful to the Che-Lives community than we realize. If we tolerate such disregard for the important issue of unity within our own organizations, we are implying that it is acceptable leftist behaviors. Thanks for your input on the CPUSA, praxis1966 too, and your view on my thread. I would gladly help start an organization with my comrades.

redstar2000 - quote, "He does that to everybody"
I know, that is why I first tried to reason with him but he was not open to discussion, even with a comrade.
A comrade that you cannot reason with, is no comrade at all.

CompadreGuerrillera, thanks for the support. Your post is very thought provoking. I would have never thought about the possibility of poser, FBI agents, infiltrating our group to cause divisive interaction. Though I had not doubt there might be spies :ph34r: Let them watch us grow ;) :hammer:

"Anyone who thinks Marx was an Anarchist is not my comrade."
Too true elijahcraig, you are not my comrade, simply because you have such a great reason to divide our community.

[Valkyrie]

The internet is a great tool for getting the word out to moblize for mass actions and likewise be productive for discussion.

However, what I worry about most is not the factions so much, but that the left gets caught up in the vaccuum that the internet tends to be and forgets that the Important Unity is the one you create with those you can influence and leave your mark on right now --- those in your communities, workplace, schools etc, or wherever you live at the moment. This is where the work has to be done. and This can not be stressed enough.

try to make the effort that No matter where you go, you leave your trademark behind and let them know that the enemy of capitalism has just been there.... even if you are but an army of one.

You can guarantee that when the time comes and the lines are drawn and there is no turning back and you can taste the freedom--- communists of all tribes will stand together on the same side united by the one cause..... you can bet your life on that.

[Don't Change Your Name]

This topic shows what is happening to us. Someone comes and asks for unity (I agree with that) and then someone (elijahcraig) comes and ruin it all, starting a very pointless discussion that will lead us nowhere.

Now, what do you want elijahcraig? You clearly dont give a f*ck about changing anything is this capitalist world, you only want to become the new Stalin. You are proposing us to be divided, you dont seem to like cooperation, and you dont seem to tolerate the rest of the people here.
This sectarian way of thinking leave socialism (in all its different styles) as a THEORY, but it never gets to PRACTICE. Do any of you get what I mean?

This way your ideology will never become a real thing, and simmilar ones wont either.

[praxis1966]

Marxist in Nebraska: They were both radical student organisations that were at the height of their noteriety in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Both had heavy socialist ties, as well as links to the Black Panther Party. The Peace and Freedom Party was founded by Abbie Hoffman (author of the definative work Steal This Book!). SDS also had an affiliation (if not direct oversite) of a guerrilla group known as The Weather Underground. Otherwise known as The Weathermen, you may recognise them from the reference in the RATM song "Township Rebellion." Several bombings and prison breaks were attributed to them.

The only reason I mention them is that you might choose to model your organisation's structure and constitution after them. For further help, you might look to the Black Panthers themselves. In the book The Black Panthers Speak, there is a complete printing of their famous "10 Point Program" as well as their bylaws.

BTW, I'm from the armpit of the universe. AKA a little town in the panhandle of Florida called Panama City.

[Hampton]

At the back of the book Liberation, Imagination, and the Black Panther Party they have the results from the Revolutionary People's Constitutional Convention workshops and lists an opinion on almost every issue you could imagine that concerns the black community. Needless to say it was created from the spirt of the BPP. It's a good book too.

[elijahcraig]

I know, that is why I first tried to reason with him but he was not open to discussion, even with a comrade.
A comrade that you cannot reason with, is no comrade at all.

I remember quoting Marx many times, and then you saying he was not anti-religion or a Marxist...but a theistic Anarchist Idealist! Now, that's debating.


Now, what do you want elijahcraig? You clearly dont give a f*ck about changing anything is this capitalist world, you only want to become the new Stalin. You are proposing us to be divided, you dont seem to like cooperation, and you dont seem to tolerate the rest of the people here.
This sectarian way of thinking leave socialism (in all its different styles) as a THEORY, but it never gets to PRACTICE. Do any of you get what I mean?

Wow, now that's some nonsense to think about. :lol:

You don't know me or what I do, posting on a message board about "THEORY" is the last thing which is going to put into "PRACTICE" anything. Stop the idiotic rantings, you know I'd unite with all socialist revolutionaries against capitalism. Debate within the group is not to be suppressed, only fools would have it so. There's been about 10 "Solidarity" threads, it's a joke. Stop the rhetoric.

[Elect Marx]

elijahcraig,
"I remember quoting Marx many times, and then you saying he was not anti-religion or a Marxist...but a theistic Anarchist Idealist! Now, that's debating."

To refresh your memory I said: "Marx was an atheist, not anti-theism." I never said he was not against religious systems. Prove that I said, Marx "was not...a Marxist!" this is possibly the most blatantly absurd claim I have seen on Che-lives, as it is wrong by definition and because I have not seen this anywhere before, I can only assume you have come to this conclusion by yourself.

Also I said, "Marx's model for social change ended with anarchism. Marx was in the end an anarchist." The Idealist part is also your fabrication.

I have disproved your claims and shown you to again be providing flat out lies instead of valid argument. Are you just incapable of remembering positions stated in debate? That would explain a lot.
Too bad your entire post is based on lies.

"Debate within the group is not to be suppressed, only fools would have it so. There's been about 10 "Solidarity" threads, it's a joke. Stop the rhetoric."
True, you don't seem to suppress debate but you don't seem to participate unless you agree to the views stated. What great debates you must have. I am not surprised you see solidarity as a joke.

[redstar2000]

Here is a short essay I wrote on Students for a Democratic Society...

http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000/monthlythe...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1053789156&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[commie kg]

Elijah, you were a much more positive contribution to this community before you had your little "epiphany" and converted.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a capitalist! :lol:

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 11:26 PM
Wow, now that's some nonsense to think about. :lol:

You don't know me or what I do, posting on a message board about "THEORY" is the last thing which is going to put into "PRACTICE" anything. Stop the idiotic rantings, you know I'd unite with all socialist revolutionaries against capitalism. Debate within the group is not to be suppressed, only fools would have it so. There's been about 10 "Solidarity" threads, it's a joke. Stop the rhetoric.
I posted that "idiotic ranting" to help sorting out the debate. What I am asking is that we all cooperate, I dont want to end debates, I want them to lead into something positive, not in stupid discussions like if Marx was anarchist or not, mostly because if you want to discuss those details, you better open another thread instead of using it to make people chnage their attitude and forget the point.

[emp]

I think the best activism that can be done by socialist, etc is to set a good example in our personal interactions with people.

If it doesn't already exist, a short PRACTICAL book (not dialectic materialism) should be written describing not yet more about the economics of socialism, communism, and not describing yet again the history of a hundred years ago, but a book that shows how the socialists, marxists, etc should act towards their fellow man on an individual basis.

Show people that we are interested in more than economic inequality and stopping war. Show explicitly how in our everyday actions we give a damm about one another. How we are honest, compassionate, etc.

...I've known very historically knowledgeable communists that most certainly were not very honest or much for respecting their fellow man.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

elijah, the man in my avatar wasnt no traitor! He was revolutionary, UNLIKE YOU!
this is not counter revolution!, this IS part of the revolution, go to CONSERVATIVE X wont you!
I respect Che as much as the next guy, trust me, Che would see our unity as counter revolutionary. He would see YOUR Conservative Communism counter revolutionary, Che didnt even see exactly eye to eye with that either, stop playing big shot, you dont know or have as much power as noone! You are not holy for being "communist"

If the FBI gets anyone, it better be you! You know, noone likes you lol!
Youre a fucken unlikable guy!
Youre idea for society is DEAD!

Unity, Solidarity, this IS anarcho-socialism and united leftists time to shine! Not your stinking Stalinist way!

SOLIDARITY!

[commie kg]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 09:40 PM
I think the best activism that can be done by socialist, etc is to set a good example in our personal interactions with people.

If it doesn't already exist, a short PRACTICAL book (not dialectic materialism) should be written describing not yet more about the economics of socialism, communism, and not describing yet again the history of a hundred years ago, but a book that shows how the socialists, marxists, etc should act towards their fellow man on an individual basis.

Show people that we are interested in more than economic inequality and stopping war. Show explicitly how in our everyday actions we give a damm about one another. How we are honest, compassionate, etc.

...I've known very historically knowledgeable communists that most certainly were not very honest or much for respecting their fellow man.
You have a pertinent point.

Welcome to the board. :)

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 05:40 AM
I think the best activism that can be done by socialist, etc is to set a good example in our personal interactions with people.

If it doesn't already exist, a short PRACTICAL book (not dialectic materialism) should be written describing not yet more about the economics of socialism, communism, and not describing yet again the history of a hundred years ago, but a book that shows how the socialists, marxists, etc should act towards their fellow man on an individual basis.

Show people that we are interested in more than economic inequality and stopping war. Show explicitly how in our everyday actions we give a damm about one another. How we are honest, compassionate, etc.

...I've known very historically knowledgeable communists that most certainly were not very honest or much for respecting their fellow man.
You bring to light one of the most important issues in this thread I've started. Welcome to Che-Lives Comrade emp :hammer:

[elijahcraig]

elijahcraig,
"I remember quoting Marx many times, and then you saying he was not anti-religion or a Marxist...but a theistic Anarchist Idealist! Now, that's debating."

To refresh your memory I said: "Marx was an atheist, not anti-theism." I never said he was not against religious systems. Prove that I said, Marx "was not...a Marxist!" this is possibly the most blatantly absurd claim I have seen on Che-lives, as it is wrong by definition and because I have not seen this anywhere before, I can only assume you have come to this conclusion by yourself.

You don't remember when you called Marx an anarchist? Wow. That's pathetic.


Also I said, "Marx's model for social change ended with anarchism. Marx was in the end an anarchist." The Idealist part is also your fabrication.

Then you did call him an anarchist? That's my point. Anarchism IS idealism, so you are also calling Marx an idealist once you call him an anarchist.


I have disproved your claims and shown you to again be providing flat out lies instead of valid argument. Are you just incapable of remembering positions stated in debate? That would explain a lot.
Too bad your entire post is based on lies.

You just cleared it up, and proved ME right. Nice "debate". :lol:


"Debate within the group is not to be suppressed, only fools would have it so. There's been about 10 "Solidarity" threads, it's a joke. Stop the rhetoric."
True, you don't seem to suppress debate but you don't seem to participate unless you agree to the views stated. What great debates you must have. I am not surprised you see solidarity as a joke.

I debate people who have OPPOSING views much more often than those who agree. How do you argue about something you both agree on? You can't.

Solidarity, a joke? Where did I say that? I said "Solidarity threads" are a joke, why? Because I've seen about 10-15 of them over the past few months.


Elijah, you were a much more positive contribution to this community before you had your little "epiphany" and converted.

Actually, I was a rambling Trotskyist.


Arguing with you is like arguing with a capitalist!

Only a capitalist would say that! :lol:


I posted that "idiotic ranting" to help sorting out the debate. What I am asking is that we all cooperate, I dont want to end debates, I want them to lead into something positive, not in stupid discussions like if Marx was anarchist or not, mostly because if you want to discuss those details, you better open another thread instead of using it to make people chnage their attitude and forget the point.

YOU stated Marx was an anarchist, I don't exactly mix well with fools.


elijah, the man in my avatar wasnt no traitor! He was revolutionary, UNLIKE YOU!

I never called Che a traitor, where did you get that from? I said Che saw "counter-revolutionaries" such as anarchists as traitors.


this is not counter revolution!, this IS part of the revolution, go to CONSERVATIVE X wont you!

?


I respect Che as much as the next guy, trust me, Che would see our unity as counter revolutionary. He would see YOUR Conservative Communism counter revolutionary, Che didnt even see exactly eye to eye with that either, stop playing big shot, you dont know or have as much power as noone! You are not holy for being "communist"

Che was a Stalinist, just as I am. You might want to learn a few things before going around insulting others, which would include Che in this case, as "Conservative" Communists. That's just ridiculous.

"you don't know or have as much power as noone!" Well done Tocqueville, you've served your purpose as a moron.


If the FBI gets anyone, it better be you! You know, noone likes you lol!
Youre a fucken unlikable guy!
Youre idea for society is DEAD!

What idea, Communism? So who is the capitalist here? :lol:


Unity, Solidarity, this IS anarcho-socialism and united leftists time to shine! Not your stinking Stalinist way!

Che was, once again, a Stalinist. He read him early in his transition to Marxism. Along with Sartre, Freud, Lenin, and Marx. No Trotsky.

Here is a "Stalinist" quote from The Communist Manifesto:


The working men have no country. We cannot take away from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself as a nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

National differences, and antagonisms between peoples, are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world-market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in conditions of life corresponding thereto.

The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish faster. United action, of the leading civilized countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

In proportion as the exploitation on one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.

That's Stalinism, Marxism-Leninism, Marxism, ie Socialism to Communism.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 02:45 PM
Here is a "Stalinist" quote from The Communist Manifesto:


The working men have no country. We cannot take away from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself as a nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

National differences, and antagonisms between peoples, are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world-market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in conditions of life corresponding thereto.

The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish faster. United action, of the leading civilized countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

In proportion as the exploitation on one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.

That's Stalinism, Marxism-Leninism, Marxism, ie Socialism to Communism.
What does this have to do with Stalin?

[Elect Marx]

"You don't remember when you called Marx an anarchist? Wow. That's pathetic."
Way to start off with a lie. Is that not pathetic?

"Anarchism IS idealism"
Does someone want to change the subject?

"You just cleared it up, and proved ME right. Nice "debate"."
"Proved [YOU] right," about as much as your pitiful lies.

"Because I've seen about 10-15 of them over the past few months"
Well, if the people on Che-lives care so much about solidarity, that must make it unimportant, according to you.

"Here is a "Stalinist" quote from The Communist Manifesto:"
Once again, you've posted a quote without any explaination. Too bad you don't seem to know what debate is, maybe you sould quote a definition from someone. That would prove how smart you are, no thinking required.

[elijahcraig]

What does this have to do with Stalin?

What is written there is exactly what Comrade Stalin attempted to do.



"You don't remember when you called Marx an anarchist? Wow. That's pathetic."

Way to start off with a lie. Is that not pathetic?

You have already quoted yourself on the subject, proving me correct.



"Anarchism IS idealism"

Does someone want to change the subject?

This is my basis of not going into a rant about solidarity, and how wonderful it is. Solidarity with my comrades, not with idealists.



"You just cleared it up, and proved ME right. Nice "debate"."

"Proved [YOU] right," about as much as your pitiful lies.

You've quoted yourself. You said Marx was an anarchist, that is my point. How is that a lie if you admit it?



"Because I've seen about 10-15 of them over the past few months"

Well, if the people on Che-lives care so much about solidarity, that must make it unimportant, according to you.

I think it is implied since we are ALL (or most of us) socialists.



"Here is a "Stalinist" quote from The Communist Manifesto:"

Once again, you've posted a quote without any explaination. Too bad you don't seem to know what debate is, maybe you sould quote a definition from someone. That would prove how smart you are, no thinking required.

I thought you might be intelligent enough to "decipher" some connection between Marx's "must constitute itself as a nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.", and Stalin's policies, too often run down as "socialism in one country" as in "Nationalism". I was actually replying to someone who called me names and called Marxism-Leninism "Stalinist trash", I think that's the phrase, though I could be mistaken.

[Elect Marx]

"You have already quoted yourself on the subject, proving me correct."
Wow elijahcraig, now you have managed to disprove everything I said, wait NO!

I guess I'm not "intelligent enough," to draw blind conclusions from your assertion. At least you made a passing explanation this time.

[elijahcraig]

So me saying you called Marx an anarchist and then you saying,


"Marx's model for social change ended with anarchism. Marx was in the end an anarchist." The Idealist part is also your fabrication.

So you didn't say Marx was an anarchist? Because that^^^ says different.

Anarchism is something I consider Idealism, so you called him an idealist as well.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 10:16 PM
Anarchism is something I consider Idealism, so you called him an idealist as well.
So according to your veiw I did. Not all people see anarchism as an idealist system, if you do, you should try to prove it and not build your argument on assumptions. Don't assume all people should see issues as you do, that is dogmatic. If you had proven anarchism to be idealism, then this would actually be debate and we would have accomplished something.

[elijahcraig]

I am a Marxist. Marxists believe Anarchism to be idealism, as opposed to materialism. Marx and Engels, and Lenin, and Stalin, have all written things on this. It isn't hard to find.

[commie kg]

Actually, I was a rambling Trotskyist.

Ah, I see. Well, now you're just a rambling Stalinist, so I guess nothing much has changed. How about we break even and call you a "rambling Leninist?"

Only a capitalist would say that!

:lol:
Your superior Stalinist intellect has proven itself with this witty comeback. :rolleyes:

So you didn't say Marx was an anarchist? Because that^^^ says different.

Marx was "in the end an anarchist". Anarchism and Communism share the same ultimate end. The only difference is how to reach that end.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

I may want to learn some more b4 i INSULT others?

HAHA, you started it, and u deserved, by coming in this room and being a fucken pig! I didnt start it trust me, besides no1 else complains about me, its worthless talking to a moron like you.

[elijahcraig]

Actually, I was a rambling Trotskyist.

Ah, I see. Well, now you're just a rambling Stalinist, so I guess nothing much has changed. How about we break even and call you a "rambling Leninist?"

Deal.



Only a capitalist would say that!


Your superior Stalinist intellect has proven itself with this witty comeback.

Somebody can't detect sarcasm . :lol:



So you didn't say Marx was an anarchist? Because that^^^ says different.

Marx was "in the end an anarchist". Anarchism and Communism share the same ultimate end. The only difference is how to reach that end.

Anarchists are utopian dreamers who do not understand what it takes to get to Communism. Marxists understand that to get to Communism, a dictatorship of the proletariat is absoletely necessary. Saying Marx was an Anarchist, when everything he wrote goes against it is just idiotic.


I may want to learn some more b4 i INSULT others?

HAHA, you started it, and u deserved, by coming in this room and being a fucken pig! I didnt start it trust me, besides no1 else complains about me, its worthless talking to a moron like you.

I started the Stalin-insults? Really? :lol:

What are you, five? Learn to type like a normal mature person and then we can debate...or I can order you about if you'd like that instead. lololol

[commie kg]

Anarchists are utopian dreamers who do not understand what it takes to get to Communism. Marxists understand that to get to Communism, a dictatorship of the proletariat is absoletely necessary. Saying Marx was an Anarchist, when everything he wrote goes against it is just idiotic.

No, Marx was not an anarchist, an neither am I, but you must aknowledge that the end result of communism is the same as the end result of anarchism. I believe that's what 313C7 iVi4RX was saying, but I may be wrong.

[elijahcraig]

Anarchism relies on communal federations, federalism. Communism relies on free asscociations of men. Anarchism in the form of Proudhonism, and of Bakuninism to a certain extent, does not address commodity production. Marx recognizes this, and comments several times in footnotes in "Capital".

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 21 2003, 11:34 PM
Marx was "in the end an anarchist". Anarchism and Communism share the same ultimate end. The only difference is how to reach that end.
That is basicaly what I am saying. elijahcraig, you are only inturpeting those systems in terms of the most promenent figures in there advancement. Proudhon, and Bakunin, and Marx were all important to the those systems but they are not completely defined by those figures. Each of these concepts goes beyond the people who furthered them. Sinse you are proving to be a literary revolutionary, why not explain, "Anarchism relies on communal federations, federalism. Communism relies on free asscociations of men," you keep saying this but you have provided no rationale. Remember, points, not dogmatic assertions.

[elijahcraig]

Are you denying Anarchism relies on federations? It's very clear from Bakunin about that. A loose federalism for Proudhon. I used to be an anarchist, I'm familiar with the ideology.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 08:56 PM
Are you denying Anarchism relies on federations? It's very clear from Bakunin about that. A loose federalism for Proudhon. I used to be an anarchist, I'm familiar with the ideology.
I am questioning if these specifications that you are using are universal or just generalizations. I am not so sure that communism and anarchism must be structured this way. If you have a reason for thinking so, this would be the more important information for you to provide, as most people could find your sources but may not have a clue as to you conclutions.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

am i five??? No, I am Czech, English is only 4 yrs new to me, so In English speaking countreis i am 5!! :lol:

dont be an idiot elijah!, oh and stalin? no- one likes him much.

I can only find stalinists(i dont capitalise stalins name cause i dont like him) on the INTERNET, maybe because in real life everyone would beat you up!! Really, Ive NEVER met a stalinist in real life! You are most likely afraid!!

All the communists i EVER talked to, were against stalin. You see, the ONLY place for stalinists to feel safe is the internet, is it not?

Likewise, i cant find any "left" leftists sites, but in real life plenty more people are "left" left.

Oh and calling me immiture is great! no one else seems to think so! Your really funny elijah, become a comedian plz, so i can laugh at you!
:lol: :lol:

[elijahcraig]

Maybe you should read some Anarchist material, it speaks for itself.

Here's a quote from Bakunin's "Stateless Socialism: Anarchism":


The Program of a Free Society. Outside of the Mazzinian system which is the system of the republic in the form of a State, there is no other system but that of the republic as a commune, the republic as a federation, a Socialist and a genuine people's republic - the system of Anarchism. It is the politics of the Social Revolution, which aims at the abolition of the State, and the economic, altogether free organization of the people, an organization from below upward, by means of a federation.

That's the "federation" part.


9. The Revolution being localized, it will necessarily assume a federalist character. Thus, upon overthrowing the established government, the communes must reorganize themselves in a revolutionary manner, electing the administrators and revolutionary tribunals on the basis of universal suffrage and on the principle that all officials must be made directly and effectively responsible to the people.

That is from Bakunin as well from "National Catechism". This is another flaw of anarchism. Federalist Local control. I have the opinion of William Blum, "Not much for local control."

[elijahcraig]

dont be an idiot elijah!, oh and stalin? no- one likes him much.

He was voted second greatest Russian leader ever by the Russian people in 2000. Somebody must like him. :lol:


I can only find stalinists(i dont capitalise stalins name cause i dont like him) on the INTERNET, maybe because in real life everyone would beat you up!! Really, Ive NEVER met a stalinist in real life! You are most likely afraid!!

hahhaa, that's an insult? Lower-case? What an idiot.

Also, I'd like to see a Trot beat up a Stalinist. :lol:


All the communists i EVER talked to, were against stalin. You see, the ONLY place for stalinists to feel safe is the internet, is it not?

I have debated my Oxford-educated AP English teacher on Stalin. If you know me, you know my views. My teacher says, "Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion."


Likewise, i cant find any "left" leftists sites, but in real life plenty more people are "left" left.

???


Oh and calling me immiture is great! no one else seems to think so! Your really funny elijah, become a comedian plz, so i can laugh at you!

Have you taken a poll? I'm sure you'd get a few votes tossed your way you incompetent piece of trash. :lol:

[CompadreGuerrillera]

well, i got to hand it to you, you sure are a funny comedian!

Why dont we try it? How many people here hate me? Would they have reasons to? I never walked into a room having a serius discussion and started acting like an idiot.

O well, I'm sorry you dont have freinds poor elijah
Incopetent peice of trash eh? Thats your best? It wasnt as funny as some of your other stuff, come up with new matirial joker! :lol:

[elijahcraig]

Maybe you should check out ISF for my "friends".

Joker? CompadreGuerrillera, if you want to get ass-raped...please bend over, because the foreplay is eroding my consiousness.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

Im sorry, i do not share in your sick tendencies!

Whatever gave you this impression that you can impose "things" into me, i am dreadfuly sorry. Im tolerant of people like you, ITs OK if u feel like this. You can express your anger, you have the right!
But you have to draw the line somewhere :lol:

DONT even think about trying to act tough on the INTERNET we all know its bullshit :P

[redstar2000]

He [Stalin] was voted second greatest Russian leader ever by the Russian people in 2000.

All the other leaders tied for first. :lol:

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[elijahcraig]

Lenin was solely first.


DONT even think about trying to act tough on the INTERNET we all know its bullshit

What does toughness have to do with anything?

A certain 5 year old can't comprehend sarcasm very well.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

uh elijah, that was weak, but i guess u had to say SOMETHING, lol, of course i comprehend it! Your a comedian were SUPPOSED to laugh and make fun of you, silly silly elijah :D

[elijahcraig]

Face it CG, you have been:

http://www.rit.edu/~bxw3064/ali-owned.jpg

O, O.

:lol:

[CompadreGuerrillera]

uh ok!!

I have been owned by a stalinist, what argument did he own me on : NONE, i just had a heart atak in the ring!!

dude elijah, please, your depserate, first its spam, now its photos, no what?

I think it is YOU who have been owned, but im not immiture enough to post a picture of a someone standing over someone else.

I guess im too old for arguing with you elijah! You used your stupidity to defeat me :lol:

Dont delude yourself please, BESIDES, were going OFF TOPIC, lets get back in the TOPIC shall we? You know im no good in a FLAME WAR, we were discussing unity, versus idiotism err... stalinism.

Lets get back to that or do u accept your defeat?

[elijahcraig]

Let me remind you, Trotsky is the factionalist, NOT Stalin. So, it is Trotsky and his side who have factionalized the movement. It is their fault.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

Yes, there is one place i kindof* agree with you, Trotskyists are more seperatist than you guys elijah, i got to hand you that. My one question is WHY?

Why are both stalinists and trotskyists both not willing to unify with the rest of thier bretheren?
If i HAD to chose one ruler at that time, I wouldve LEFT Russia, and moved somewhere else, because either desicion wouldve been bad.

[elijahcraig]

Yes, there is one place i kindof* agree with you, Trotskyists are more seperatist than you guys elijah, i got to hand you that. My one question is WHY?

Why are both stalinists and trotskyists both not willing to unify with the rest of thier bretheren?

Trotsky broke with the party, and created the term "Stalinist". Stalin never broke with the party. That is factionalist Trotskyism. Stalinism has always been Marxism-Leninism, only projected as bureacracy by the Trotskyists. Lenin wrote a whole long essay on Trotsky and Bukharin's factionalism.


If i HAD to chose one ruler at that time, I wouldve LEFT Russia, and moved somewhere else, because either desicion wouldve been bad.

One ruler? You are looking at things from a Western viewpoint. In the USSR, there were no dictators. There were party central committies, but that is Leninism, not a dictatorship by one man. A "dictatorship of the proletariat".

[elijahcraig]

I suggest this work by Leon Trotsky to show his anti-Leninist stance, only to "opportunily" become a Bolshevik as the revolution drew nigh.

On Political Tasks-Leon Trotsky (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1904/1904-pt/index.htm)