Right to Die

[Fawkes]

So, I've long believed that one has every right to terminate their life whenever and however (provided it doesn't inflict physical harm upon another, and yes, I know this opens up a whole other can of worms) they wish. But it's a lot easier to just say that than to actually be in a situation where someone's suicide is imminent.

About a month ago my friend killed himself by running a hose from his exhaust through his car window. Now, if I was to have walked by the car, I really don't know what I would have done. Part of me think I would've grabbed a rock or whatever I could and smashed the car window and forcibly pulled him out. Another part of me just as strongly thinks I would've have just stood there and watched him end what is his and only his on his own terms.

But what do people here think about this? I find it hard to imagine even the most ardent believer in one's right to die would be able to walk into a room to see their child hanging themselves and not immediately cut them down.

[Meridian]

"Right to die" is bullshit, seek the causes for it and help the person.

[Fawkes]

"Right to die" is bullshit, seek the causes for it and help the person.

You can't help someone unless they want it. And how are you ever supposed to find the causes of it? You can't know, it's not you. If it's your life, why can't you end it?

[Blackscare]

I support the right to die in cases of cancer, debilitating conditions, etc, but not in cases of mental distress. Mental distress is something that can be helped and is, if treated, temporary.

Meanwhile a person killing themselves over depression or the like not only ends their lives but negatively impacts those around them.


It's one thing to have a family member opt to "go out" with dignity when losing to cancer, at least that's understandable. But when a person kills themselves over something that could have been prevented, it makes it all the more traumatic. I think suicide is a very selfish thing under these types of circumstances, and I personally lose respect for someone unless I've heard of a damn good reason for their choice.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think suicide is a very selfish thing under these types of circumstances, and I personally lose respect for someone unless I've heard of a damn good reason for their choice.

Can. Worms. Everywhere.

[Fawkes]

I think suicide is a very selfish thing under these types of circumstances, and I personally lose respect for someone unless I've heard of a damn good reason for their choice.

Me smashing the window of my friend's car and pulling him out would've been one of the most selfish things I could've possibly done. He wanted to die, who the hell am I to force him not to?

[Sosa]

I think suicide is a very selfish thing under these types of circumstances, and I personally lose respect for someone unless I've heard of a damn good reason for their choice.

As if the person actually cares about your judgment.

Yes, I support a person's right to die.

[Noinu]

Me smashing the window of my friend's car and pulling him out would've been one of the most selfish things I could've possibly done. He wanted to die, who the hell am I to force him not to?

Well how about asking him why on earth he wants to kill himself in the first place? I mean, if he still wants to die after that, it's not like he can't. People can try suicide more than once, you know.

[Blackscare]

Can. Worms. Everywhere.


As if condoning suicide for whoever wants it at any given time, for any given reason, isn't a bit of a "can of worms".


What about people under the influence of a drug? I've wanted to kill myself a few times on LSD and the like.

For that matter, what about people frustrated from addiction? If you're a heroin addict and you feel hopeless (which I can again attest, everyone does) about getting better, should you just be able to end it over an addiction that most certainly can be helped (even if it's a long, shitty process)?

Of course, this is all pretty pointless anyway. The only point where this becomes a practical issue is assisted suicide for those who can't perform it themselves, as anyone else who wants to usually can without a hitch.

[Blackscare]

As if the person actually cares about your judgment.


Yes, they probably care about as much as they do about the impact they're having on friends and family ;)

[WeAreReborn]

I as well support a persons right to die. I do however think if it is possible to talk to them and try to get them help. But if they do not sincerely want it and refuse then that is their choice.

[Blackscare]

Also, I'd like to add, I've attempted suicide for precisely the reason I gave above (addiction), in the last year when I was away from here. I'm really glad I failed now that I've put it behind me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Sosa]

Yes, they probably care about as much as they do about the impact they're having on friends and family ;)

I'm talking about those whose judgment isn't impaired. People who are on drugs or mentally impaired, that's a different story

[Noinu]

I'm talking about those whose judgment isn't impaired. People who are on drugs or mentally impaired, that's a different story

I wonder how being clinically depressed means you're not mentally impaired?

[Blackscare]

I'm talking about those whose judgment isn't impaired. People who are on drugs or mentally impaired, that's a different story


So how is that any different from what I'm saying? Anyway, how do you define "impaired"? To what extent is depression a chemical imbalance (something I also deal with, lol) and thus an "impairment" and when is it the logical result of some factor in a person's life?

[Blackscare]

I wonder how being clinically depressed means you're not mentally impaired?

You sniped me.

[Meridian]

Well, a "right to die" would be completely un-materialistic.

A person dying at young age obviously has large implications for the society around the person. In some cases one could perhaps make the case that it is the right of the person to choose to end their own lives. But to commit suicide is not just 'another' decision, it is a decision that in many cases people are not capable of taking rationally, even if it appears as if they do.

For that reason, it is in most cases also unacceptable for someone to be passive yet informed while another person commits suicide.


You can't help someone unless they want it.
That isn't true, and I could bring up countless examples to show it.


And how are you ever supposed to find the causes of it?
I am not, professionals can.


If it's your life, why can't you end it?
A life is not a property.

[Noinu]

So how is that any different from what I'm saying? Anyway, how do you define "impaired"? To what extent is depression a chemical imbalance (something I also deal with, lol) and thus an "impairment" and when is it the logical result of some factor in a person's life?

I know this is sorta off topic and not for me, but I always got the impression that people who have that chemical imbalance are depressed, yet don't really know why.
And those who are depressed because of some traumatic incident etc. usually do know what made them sad and later on depressed?

[Noinu]

You sniped me.

Eh?

[Sosa]

I wonder how being clinically depressed means you're not mentally impaired?

Have I said anything regarding clinically depressed?

[Noinu]

Have I said anything regarding clinically depressed?

No, you only spoke of mentally impaired. Most people who commit suicide, though, are depressed, so that's why I ventured into the area.

[Sosa]

So how is that any different from what I'm saying? Anyway, how do you define "impaired"? To what extent is depression a chemical imbalance (something I also deal with, lol) and thus an "impairment" and when is it the logical result of some factor in a person's life?

I don't define it. I'm neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. It wouldn't be up to me to decide.

[Sosa]

No, you only spoke of mentally impaired. Most people who commit suicide, though, are depressed, so that's why I ventured into the area.

mentally impaired in the broader sense. It may or may not include depression.

[Noinu]

mentally impaired in the broader sense. It may or may not include depression.

So may it or may it not? I'm asking your opinion, not some universal truth on depression.

[Sosa]

So may it or may it not? I'm asking your opinion, not some universal truth on depression.

My opinion doesn't mean anything.

If depression is considered to be a mental impairment by professionals then they should be helped instead of assisted in suicide. If not, then these people should be allowed to do with their lives as they wish.

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject of whether depression is or is not a mental impairment.

[Noinu]

My opinion doesn't mean anything.

If depression is considered to be a mental impairment by professionals then they should be helped instead of assisted in suicide. If not, then these people should be allowed to do with their lives as they wish.

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject of whether depression is or is not a mental impairment.

As if the rest of the people on this thread would be, it's just a question. Plus, you just stated your opinion, really wasn't that hard, was it?

Besides, if you don't think your opinion matters, why post in the first place? Really don't see the logic in that. (Not that I'd agree with you, I think everybody's opinion matters, it's suicide, it could affect every one of us, if it hasn't already).

[Sosa]

As if the rest of the people on this thread would be, it's just a question. Plus, you just stated your opinion, really wasn't that hard, was it?

Besides, if you don't think your opinion matters, why post in the first place? Really don't see the logic in that. (Not that I'd agree with you, I think everybody's opinion matters, it's suicide, it could affect every one of us, if it hasn't already).

I wasn't stating an opinion on whether depression is a mental impairment. I was opining on whether or not there is a right to die, which is what the thread is about.

[Blackscare]

I was opining on whether or not there is a right to die, which is what the thread is about.

Yes, and then the thread became (as these discussions always do) about the "can of worms" aspect of it, IE how do you make a clean definition of what is "acceptable" suicide, if that is even possible?


BTW to the person I said "you sniped me" to, I said that because you said exactly what I was trying to say and posted it while I was still typing my own post.

[Sosa]

Yes, and then the thread became (as these discussions always do) about the "can of worms" aspect of it, IE how do you make a clean definition of what is "acceptable" suicide, if that is even possible?

I would defer to people who have more expertise in that subject than me. I only acknowledge that the right exists under those certain conditions. I don't pretend to know what defines them though, I would have to read about what other knowledgeable people say regarding it.

[Fawkes]

debilitating conditions


Like depression.


Meanwhile a person killing themselves over depression or the like not only ends their lives but negatively impacts those around them.

As opposed to ending it for another, "more acceptable" reason?


But when a person kills themselves over something that could have been prevented, it makes it all the more traumatic.
It's death, it usually is traumatic.


I personally lose respect for someone unless I've heard of a damn good reason for their choice.
Obviously they have a damn good reason, so why should your judgement play into it?


why on earth he wants to kill himself in the first place? I mean, if he still wants to die after that, it's not like he can't.
Of course I would've talked to him had I known, but that doesn't necessarily mean I should forcibly stop an action he has set into motion with full knowledge of its outcome. Dying from carbon monoxide is a long process, he had ample time to leave the car, he knew he wanted to die.


What about people under the influence of a drug?
I don't know really, that's why I made this thread, to try to get a better understanding.


as anyone else who wants to usually can without a hitch.
What about if I walked by the car and saw what was happening?


Yes, they probably care about as much as they do about the impact they're having on friends and family

Obviously their own personal pain has overridden that.


I'm really glad I failed now that I've put it behind me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Sure, but there are also a lot of people who have attempted suicide, failed, and then successfully did it again.


Meridian:

"right to die"
I'm well aware, I'm using this for lack of a better term.


But to commit suicide is not just 'another' decision, it is a decision that in many cases people are not capable of taking rationally, even if it appears as if they do.
Okay, but who gets to dictate whether or not it is a rational decision?


That isn't true, and I could bring up countless examples to show it.

What're you gonna do, force someone into therapy? It doesn't work like that.


I am not, professionals can.
Professionals can if the person is willing to talk with them and disclose information, something they have to willingly do.


A life is not a property.

What is it? Are you implying that I should not have ultimate control over my life?



I guess I'll offer an expanded, realistic scenario to help in this discussion:
I see my friend in his car and I smash out the window. I pull him out and hold him. I call 911. Ambulance arrives and they take him to the hospital and place him on 72 hour psychiatric hold and put him on suicide watch. They talk to him and run whatever tests they do, yet he just keeps repeating that he just wants to die. Could someone please explain to me why his pleas should not be heard?

[Rafiq]

I guess so under Capitalism.

But guys, in our Worker's society, will their be any reasons for someone to want to Commit suicide?

[Fawkes]

I guess so under Capitalism.

But guys, in our Worker's society, will their be any reasons for someone to want to Commit suicide?

Um, yeah. It ain't gonna be perfect. I'm bipolar (if anyone has ever noticed that I go through phases of posting here a lot and then not posting at all for a long period of time, that is why) and I've been suicidal, would that go away in a post-capitalist society? No.

[Tablo]

I think everyone has the right to die, but if I were to personally witness a friend trying to kill themselves I would have stopped them even though it would be an illegitimate act of force. My personal feelings at a given moment are more powerful than what my concept of right and wrong may be in this situation. A good example is that I think that killing a person for murder is wrong, but if I saw someone kill my mother I would jump the person and without a second thought probably kill them.

[Blackscare]

Fawkes, you keep saying this as if "they" could stop him from doing it if he really wanted to. The point is, as much as you should have the opportunity to do as you please in that regard (and almost everyone does, all the time), you should have the opportunity to fail at it if someone comes across you (assuming you're not, again, getting assisted suicide, which I support).


Look, what I mean is that a lot of people who make the attempt realize during the process that they do not, in fact, really want to die. Look that interviews of the few people who survived jumping off the golden gate, one thing that is almost universal is that they say that almost immediately after jumping off the bridge they wish they hadn't, but at that point it is of course too late to get back on.


Perhaps this argument wouldn't apply to something like what your friend did, considering that you do have a fairly decent amount of time to think it over. But let me get just a little bit morbid and explain what I did, and why I'm thankful someone helped me.


When I tried to kill myself, I did it by shooting up an insane amount of heroin at once, into my ankle. The effect is damn near immediate that route, and as soon as I felt this extremely intense feeling (which I immediately recognized was too much, or just enough I suppose depending on how you look at it), and I knew it would kill me, I had misgivings. I was pretty sure I was going to die anyway but I frantically tied a power cord around my leg and tried to call for help, but I just passed out. I woke up after having been shot up with Naxalone, an anti-overdose dealy that my friend next door had (not that shit from pulp fiction). Anyway, my friends had no idea that I didn't want to die (although they did have a strong suspicion that I was trying to kill myself for a number of reasons, considering they knew I wasn't just nodding or whatever) but they saved me anyway. I'm really glad they did.

Also, I learned a little something about what it does to people in the 12 or so hours I had to be watched by friends, being shot up with naxalone every once and a while (heroin lasts a lot longer than naxalone, so you can be fine and then overdose again in 6 hours). They were terrified and distraught, and I sat there imagining how it would have been had I not been helped.


Anyways, I came out of that not wanting to die, but that was probably something that only could have happened had I tried? I don't know, I just think that if you find a friend who attempts some form of suicide that makes it difficult to extricate yourself (hanging, slitting your wrists in a bathtub, OD), you should help. If they really want to after that, they'll do it and they'll make sure their nosy friends aren't around.

Make it hard to do :)


(it's not like it's ever really impossible anyway, except in specific instances)


It just makes me nervous when people talk about making it easier to do, without any intervention. A lot of people think that it's what they want to do, but realize that they don't. If you make it a streamlined, easy process that anyone can do, I'm afraid people that didn't need to or ultimately want to would die.

[Blackscare]

Also, I'd like to add that you actually pass out from carbon monoxide long before you die, so it's hard to say what your friend would have done had he had the full amount of time to think about it. Granted, though, you still have plenty of time before you pass out. IDK.

[Rafiq]

Um, yeah. It ain't gonna be perfect. I'm bipolar (if anyone has ever noticed that I go through phases of posting here a lot and then not posting at all for a long period of time, that is why) and I've been suicidal, would that go away in a post-capitalist society? No.

I suppose.

But some people usually commit suicide because they don't find a meaning to life, and sometimes people lose jobs, harrassed because they are gay, ect.

These would go away in our society.

[Blackscare]

I suppose.

But some people usually commit suicide because they don't find a meaning to life, and sometimes people lose jobs, harrassed because they are gay, ect.

These would go away in our society.


Or just petty inter-personal shit like adultery, etc.

[9]

lol "adultery"

[Os Cangaceiros]

Someone I knew commited suicide. One day he just took his pistol, wandered down to a river by his house and blew his brains out. He was around 18 at the time.

What made it unusual was that no one expected it, as he wasn't depressed (or at least not visibly so), and he had friends in school and a family. People were fairly shocked by it, as you could imagine.

I've been under the impression that most people who fail at suicide never really commited to the idea in the first place. Killing yourself is never really more difficult than an incision from your elbow to your wrist. I don't like the idea of suicide (who amoung the non-suicidal does?), but I imagine a life where the only reason that you don't put a bullet in your head or swallow a bottle of pills is the fact that other people will be sad when you're gone...well, that sounds like a nightmarish existence. Obviously it's not an easy subject (I do support "right-to-die" for terminally ill people, though.)

[Amphictyonis]

I support the right to die in cases of cancer, debilitating conditions, etc, but not in cases of mental distress. Mental distress is something that can be helped and is, if treated, temporary.



And in many cases mental distress is caused by capitalism. As was the case in the Bay Area recently when a man held up the Bay Bridge with threats of suicide because he was working 2 jobs and living in his car. There's more material causes for 'mental illness' than most bourgeois psychologists will admit. Brain chemistry can change from years of stress and toil. Do rich people go insane or suffer from mental illness? Sure, but, if you look at how many Americans are suffering from mental illness (I think they say 1 in 10) you have to ask yourself whats causing this epidemic. I say capitalism and the sick life pace it sets. Life at 95 mph almost every waking moment all under the division of labor doing the same shitty task everyday....for years. It's unnatural.

On the other hand scientologists are crazy :).

Usually when a person is young they can become depressed over social situations as opposed to older people who are more concerned with their material situation. Mental illness exists separate of economic systems I just think capitalism has plugged our potential for mental illness into an amplifier.

[Noinu]

It's death, it usually is traumatic.

Actually, death that you know for a long time is coming, is usually a lot less traumatic.



Obviously they have a damn good reason, so why should your judgement play into it?

So all those people who kill themselves 'cause they got dumped had really good reasons for suicide. Sorry, but a few nice words and a little medicine here and there, might have taken that wish to die, away. I'm not saying it's the case for everyone, but knowing enough people that have tried, I certainly know that some are happy they didn't die.



Of course I would've talked to him had I known, but that doesn't necessarily mean I should forcibly stop an action he has set into motion with full knowledge of its outcome. Dying from carbon monoxide is a long process, he had ample time to leave the car, he knew he wanted to die.


And how do you know he hadn't drugged himself, knowing perfectly well that carbon monoxide poisoning isn't the fastest way to go? You know, like a sleeping tablet to keep you unconscious until you're dead? Kinda makes it impossible to stand up and leave the car.


Obviously their own personal pain has overridden that.

A pain, that might have been able to be taken away without the ending of a life.


Sure, but there are also a lot of people who have attempted suicide, failed, and then successfully did it again.

Yes, exactly. That's my point. If you had stopped him and asked him and nothing you tried helped him, he could always try again and die. Thus you're not really taking away his 'right to die' with just asking for him to think a day longer.



I guess I'll offer an expanded, realistic scenario to help in this discussion:
I see my friend in his car and I smash out the window. I pull him out and hold him. I call 911. Ambulance arrives and they take him to the hospital and place him on 72 hour psychiatric hold and put him on suicide watch. They talk to him and run whatever tests they do, yet he just keeps repeating that he just wants to die. Could someone please explain to me why his pleas should not be heard?

Could someone please explain to me, why do random tests and not ask him what it is that makes him want to kill himself?
'Life's crap'
'Alright, why?'
What doctors usually do in a suicide attempt -case isn't really the best way forward, seeing as most psychiatrists are total twats too, but how about just asking him what makes him do it now? I mean, he's had his whole life to commit suicide, what's the trigger?
As I said, it's not as if though he can't go and attempt suicide again if he really wants to afterwards.

[Noinu]

BTW to the person I said "you sniped me" to, I said that because you said exactly what I was trying to say and posted it while I was still typing my own post.

Ah, alright, never heard that saying before :) thanks for the explanation

[Tavarisch_Mike]

What kind of vulgare individualism is this about that "we have a right to commit suicide", they got a menthal illness and should be treated and helped for that, you cant just give up on thees people, try to aplicate this on a aother case like if someone got HIV and it has started to developed pretty bad and the chances to survive is very limited and the patient dont want any etempt to be curred. Should we just accept that?

[Fawkes]

What kind of vulgare individualism is this about that "we have a right to commit suicide"
Why the hell shouldn't they? It's their individual (OH NO!) life.


you cant just give up on thees people
But at some point they should be able to give up on themselves.



try to aplicate this on a aother case like if someone got HIV and it has started to developed pretty bad and the chances to survive is very limited and the patient dont want any etempt to be curred. Should we just accept that?

Umm... yeah...? Are you kidding me? You want to force HIV treatment on somebody who would just wants to die sooner rather than suffer through the disease? To twist your own quote around, what kind of anti-individual bullshit is this?


Thanks for the posts Noinu and Blackscare, I definitely see your point now and that has somewhat changed how I feel about it.

[Noinu]

Umm... yeah...? Are you kidding me? You want to force HIV treatment on somebody who would just wants to die sooner rather than suffer through the disease? To twist your own quote around, what kind of anti-individual bullshit is this?

How much do you actually know about current HIV treatments? Sure, there's quite a lot of meds to be taken, but people with HIV can easily live long and happy lives, if they take those medicines. People who before died of AIDS, now die of normal ageing, since HIV medication prevents the disease from getting to the point of actual AIDS.
HIV doesn't make well treated people suffer physically anymore, the suffering comes from knowing you can give it to others and the fact you'll be depending on medication for the rest of your life. But seeing as that can be said of oh so many other conditions and diseases as well, I (as a person depending on medication) cannot see it as a cause for suicide.




Thanks for the posts Noinu and Blackscare, I definitely see your point now and that has somewhat changed how I feel about it.

Very sweet of you to say that :)

[Fawkes]

People who before died of AIDS, now die of normal ageing, since HIV medication prevents the disease from getting to the point of actual AIDS.



if someone got HIV and it has started to developed pretty bad and the chances to survive is very limited and the patient dont want any etempt to be curred. Should we just accept that?



HIV doesn't make well treated people suffer physically anymore, the suffering comes from knowing you can give it to others and the fact you'll be depending on medication for the rest of your life.
That's still suffering and is just as legitimate as physical suffering. What if you don't want to have to be fearful and be on medication your whole life? And it's not like you feel as physically good as you would if you didn't have HIV or AIDS even if you are taking the medication. The prospect of someone being forced to take medication and not having the choice to do otherwise sets a pretty scary precedent in regards to ones individual sovereignty.

[Noinu]

That's still suffering and is just as legitimate as physical suffering. What if you don't want to have to be fearful and be on medication your whole life? And it's not like you feel as physically good as you would if you didn't have HIV or AIDS even if you are taking the medication. The prospect of someone being forced to take medication and not having the choice to do otherwise sets a pretty scary precedent in regards to ones individual sovereignty.

Seriously, how many people would rather choose suicide over a normal life with medication?
The strain medication puts on a person, is really much less than people who have never had to take them assume. It even gives life certain constants, which I personally enjoy.
Sorry but HIV meds don't make you feel half as crappy as the disease itself.
And being on medication for the rest of ones life really doesn't make people fearful.

[Fawkes]

Seriously, how many people would rather choose suicide over a normal life with medication?
The strain medication puts on a person, is really much less than people who have never had to take them assume. It even gives life certain constants, which I personally enjoy.
Sorry but HIV meds don't make you feel half as crappy as the disease itself.
And being on medication for the rest of ones life really doesn't make people fearful.

I was referring to the fearfulness of transferring the disease to someone else and also of the disease getting worse in spit of antiretrovirals. T_M was implying that we should not accept a patient's hypothetical decision to not be cured (obviously ignoring the fact that there isn't a cure), which again sets a really scary precedent.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Why the hell shouldn't they? It's their individual (OH NO!) life.



You dont seems to be regarding that peopel who wants to commit suicide are menthaly ill, they have not made theire choice with a "sober" mind. Its like saying that alcoholics and drug-adicts also have "choosen" what to do with their own lifes without regarding theire sickness.



But at some point they should be able to give up on themselves.



Im glad that most people wont agree with this.



Umm... yeah...? Are you kidding me? You want to force HIV treatment on somebody who would just wants to die sooner rather than suffer through the disease?


Yeah i would if there is a chance to save that person.


To twist your own quote around, what kind of anti-individual bullshit is this?

Thats just rethoric.

[Noinu]

I was referring to the fearfulness of transferring the disease to someone else and also of the disease getting worse in spit of antiretrovirals. T_M was implying that we should not accept a patient's hypothetical decision to not be cured (obviously ignoring the fact that there isn't a cure), which again sets a really scary precedent.

There are also many people who have found real help to that problem online, finding friends and even future spouses from people who have HIV themselves. I'm just saying, I would rather make all the possible alternatives clear to someone than just letting them go kill themselves on a whim.
Most of those who try suicides and fail usually are happy that they failed. They're happy they're still alive and wouldn't try it again.
So why not make it as clear to those who are in a suicidal place, that it's not the only option.

The disease rarely, very very rarely, gets worse in spite of retrovirals. Not to mention that retrovirals aren't the only HIV meds nowadays. The field is constantly finding better medications and hopefully, one day, even a cure.

[Blackscare]

try to aplicate this on a aother case like if someone got HIV and it has started to developed pretty bad and the chances to survive is very limited and the patient dont want any etempt to be curred. Should we just accept that?

Yes! Are you joking? Also, regarding this HIV mini-debate; the cost of medication/etc, make it difficult to get proper treatment if you're poor, and mostly hinges on the idea of treating a person before their viral load is too high, afterwards you're pretty much boned anyway because treatment of HIV mostly revolves around containment.

So there are in fact instances where HIV really isn't something that can be dealt with.


Tavarich_Mike, you seem a little over-emotional about this. There is absolutely no reason a person suffering a terminal illness (for the sake of simplicity, let's go with cancer) with little/no hope should be forced to continue on. Hell, chemo is an awful thing to go through and all it really does is possibly, maybe, after a long time of suffering, to go into remission for however many years, only to inevitably get cancer again (from the chemo!).

You seem awfully misguided, man. Also, I don't know how you could even justify such an action as helping the friends and family, considering the trauma associated with watching a person slowly degenerate and die without a shred of dignity (against their wishes, no less!). Have you ever seen someone with an advanced stage of cancer? It's terrible.

[Fawkes]

You dont seems to be regarding that peopel who wants to commit suicide are menthaly ill, they have not made theire choice with a "sober" mind. Its like saying that alcoholics and drug-adicts also have "choosen" what to do with their own lifes without regarding theire sickness.

Not everyone that commits suicide is necessarily mentally ill. Even when I'm in the happiest of moods, I've still said that I may die by suicide if someone/thing doesn't kill me first cause I don't ever want to be over the hill, I wanna end at the top of it. While I have been diagnosed as "mentally ill" by DSM's definitions, that doesn't really play a huge factor in this case.



Im glad that most people wont agree with this.

Yeah i would if there is a chance to save that person.
There was a slight chance that by keeping her in a hospital, my mom could have lived longer than she did, but she didn't want to prolong her suffering and chose to refuse all medical care and come home to die. She shouldn't have been able to do that?

[Blackscare]

I mean, T_M, you do realize that in certain circumstances patients already have the right to refuse treatment, right? This is already common. Assisted suicide, however, is not.


You say "people won't agree with you (fawkes)" as if the option to refuse care is somehow not already a societal norm.

[Fawkes]

Have you ever seen someone with an advanced stage of cancer? It's terrible.

To quote you: you sniped me (it was cancer my mom died from).

[Noinu]

Yes! Are you joking? Also, regarding this HIV mini-debate; the cost of medication/etc, make it difficult to get proper treatment if you're poor, and mostly hinges on the idea of treating a person before their viral load is too high, afterwards you're pretty much boned anyway because treatment of HIV mostly revolves around containment.

So there are in fact instances where HIV really isn't something that can be dealt with.


Tavarich_Mike, you seem a little over-emotional about this. There is absolutely no reason a person suffering a terminal illness (for the sake of simplicity, let's go with cancer) with little/no hope should be forced to continue on. Hell, chemo is an awful thing to go through and all it really does is possibly, maybe, after a long time of suffering, to go into remission for however many years, only to inevitably get cancer again (from the chemo!).

You seem awfully misguided, man. Also, I don't know how you could even justify such an action as helping the friends and family, considering the trauma associated with watching a person slowly degenerate and die without a shred of dignity (against their wishes, no less!). Have you ever seen someone with an advanced stage of cancer? It's terrible.

The first bolded text:

That is only the case when you have to pay for your meds. Where I live, HIV medication is payed for most part by the state (which makes your payment amount 3 euros). That's the same for most of the more expensive and/or rare medications.
Plus in a communist society, this would not be an issue, since anyone needing it would receive it regardless of money.


Second bolded text:

I have actually seen someone in the last stages of cancer. I've watched them for months fighting a war that could not be won. I have also seen how most of that suffering is a result of not the cancer but the cancer treatments. And most importantly, I have nothing against giving strong painkillers to someone like that, morphine for example is a very good painkiller and cannabis works in most cases as well. I've even been on morphine myself and can say that one can stay quite lucid with it at times, so one has the possibility of still living with it. It's not like one would be confided to a bed with strong painkillers.

[Fawkes]

I'm just saying, I would rather make all the possible alternatives clear to someone than just letting them go kill themselves on a whim.


Believe me, I'm right there with you on that.


Most of those who try suicides and fail usually are happy that they failed. They're happy they're still alive and wouldn't try it again.
So why not make it as clear to those who are in a suicidal place, that it's not the only option.


Yeah, and like I had said earlier since having read what you and Blackscare said I definitely agree with you in that regard.


The disease rarely, very very rarely, gets worse in spite of retrovirals. Not to mention that retrovirals aren't the only HIV meds nowadays. The field is constantly finding better medications and hopefully, one day, even a cure.
Yeah, I know, but like Blackscare pointed out, there are other factors involved too. Plus, I was really addressing what T_M said where they referred to a very severe case with little chance for survival.

[Noinu]

Yeah, I know, but like Blackscare pointed out, there are other factors involved too. Plus, I was really addressing what T_M said where they referred to a very severe case with little chance for survival.

I did understand that, I wasn't really trying to disspute your intention, I just though I say my opinion as well.
Since when it comes to those terminal cases, as was the case with the person I saw die of cancer, I would do whatever I can to make them comfortable and not hurt, but I wouldn't just let them kill themselves. Seeing as they're dying anyways, what's the point in making it faster, why not just make it a less painful process?

[Noinu]

There was a slight chance that by keeping her in a hospital, my mom could have lived longer than she did, but she didn't want to prolong her suffering and chose to refuse all medical care and come home to die. She shouldn't have been able to do that?

And that's not suicide.

[Fawkes]

And that's not suicide.

I know, but neither is refusing medical treatment or medication, which was brought into this as if it was. I mean, you could say it's indirect suicide or something, but that doesn't really make a difference.


Seeing as they're dying anyways, what's the point in making it faster, why not just make it a less painful process?
Painkillers don't slow the process at all, so it's not like they're making the process faster by not taking them. I can definitely see why someone would not want to go out all drugged up on a bunch of body numbing substances.


Since when it comes to those terminal cases, as was the case with the person I saw die of cancer, I would do whatever I can to make them comfortable and not hurt, but I wouldn't just let them kill themselves.
If someone is terminally ill and they're fully aware of all of their options, I don't really see why they shouldn't be able to end their lives. If they want to be comfortable and not hurt, which I'm sure they do, then the doctors should do everything they can to honor that. But if they want to just end their lives rather than continuing to suffer (and painkillers don't really eradicate all of that, they do just most of the physical pain) through their disease, they should be able to do that, and the doctors should make that process easier and painless for them.

[Noinu]

I know, but neither is refusing medical treatment or medication, which was brought into this as if it was. I mean, you could say it's indirect suicide or something, but that doesn't really make a difference.

Well when you're clinically depressed refusing treatment will in all likelyhood result in another suicidal episode.



Painkillers don't slow the process at all, so it's not like they're making the process faster by not taking them. I can definitely see why someone would not want to go out all drugged up on a bunch of body numbing substances.

Seeing as I've been on morphine, I can say it really doesn't make you all that numb inside. You can stay quite lucid on it.
When you're in that much pain, not taking any painkillers at all, it's likely you'll die faster since your mind is incapable of taking that strain from the pain.


If someone is terminally ill and they're fully aware of all of their options, I don't really see why they shouldn't be able to end their lives. If they want to be comfortable and not hurt, which I'm sure they do, then the doctors should do everything they can to honor that. But if they want to just end their lives rather than continuing to suffer (and painkillers don't really eradicate all of that, they do just most of the physical pain) through their disease, they should be able to do that, and the doctors should make that process easier and painless for them.

Seeing as we both have had the same person in our lives in the same situation, and have both died of the disease.
My mother would never have killed herself, no matter what pain. And she was in _terrible_ pain, but for her, dying with dignity meant dying a natural death, and not an induced one. And I'm sorry to take views from other people, but I do have the same value for life as she had. Just because I can understand the sentiment of wanting to die, I've wanted it more than once myself, I would not do it. Not for me and not for anyone else. I would do whatever else I can, and really strong painkillers, do take the physical pain away. Whatever mental pain there is, why would suicide somehow help with that? Sure when you're dead you don't care anymore, but the dying part really doesn't change whether you do it yourself or die of natural causes.

[Sosa]

If I was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was in pain, I would tell the doc to pull the plug regardless of what anyone else wants.

[Luisrah]

Also, I'd like to add, I've attempted suicide for precisely the reason I gave above (addiction), in the last year when I was away from here. I'm really glad I failed now that I've put it behind me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Exactly.

Many people that try to suicide, and then are helped by someone, tend to be glad they didn't die.

It's not normal for someone to want to die. After all, we are animals, through the logic of evolution, a suicide instinct is what's worse. Wanting to die goes against what life is about (surviving, feeding and reproduction).

So, someone who wants to die usually has a big problem, and if that problem is solved, than that person will be happy to live again, most of the times.

[MellowViper]

I think if they're terminally ill and have no cure, they should have the option. However, with someone who's just depressed, I think they just need help, reasons to live, and nothing short of that.

[DuracellBunny97]

if somebody was on a hospital bed, was a quadriplegic, being fed from a tube, he should be able to die with dignity if he wants, but if you found your friend whom you always thought was happy, attempting suicide, I would think saving him would be the right thing, because he's probably killing himself because of a treatable mental condition such as depression, so getting him help would be the best course of action.

[ev]

You have the right to die.

[Princess Luna]

i think people who are in a rational state of mind should be allowed to kill themselves , this of course excludes people who are depressed , on drugs , or insane

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Fuck. I've tried to die before.

[ZeroNowhere]

“It was thought that it would be possible to prevent suicide by degrading punishments and by branding the memory of the culprit with infamy. What can one say of the unworthiness of such branding of people who are no longer there to plead their case? The unfortunates, by the way, are little worried by that; and if suicide accuses anybody, it accuses above all the people who are left behind, because there is not one in this multitude who deserves that anyone should stay alive for him."

[MellowViper]

So, I've long believed that one has every right to terminate their life whenever and however (provided it doesn't inflict physical harm upon another, and yes, I know this opens up a whole other can of worms) they wish. But it's a lot easier to just say that than to actually be in a situation where someone's suicide is imminent.

About a month ago my friend killed himself by running a hose from his exhaust through his car window. Now, if I was to have walked by the car, I really don't know what I would have done. Part of me think I would've grabbed a rock or whatever I could and smashed the car window and forcibly pulled him out. Another part of me just as strongly thinks I would've have just stood there and watched him end what is his and only his on his own terms.

But what do people here think about this? I find it hard to imagine even the most ardent believer in one's right to die would be able to walk into a room to see their child hanging themselves and not immediately cut them down. Oh fuck, I had a friend do himself too. It was just aweful. I wish the mother fucker was around today. He felt unwanted, and I would have showed that he was very much wanted. He was an anti-fascist, and a friend of humanity. Shit, I wish he was around today. He ended his life with a noose, a death meant for the scum of the earth. I would have gotten him some fucking beer and a cradle of filth album if I could have. It was one of the saddest days of my mother fucking life when I found out he killed himself. i'd do anything to take that back. I loved the mother fucker. He was a really cool, guy, but life was too much for him. I betrayed and abandoned him by not being able to stop his death. It was so fucked up. I'm still not over it. It sucks so much. Fuck. I cried for hours when I found out. It just makes me kind of insane. God damn. Its so fucked up. He felt unwanted. I didn't do enough. Its just shit. I wish that never happened. I loved the guy. I mean god damn. I'm crying now. This was 2 years ago, and I'm still not over it.
Anyone who's suicidal, know you're fucking wanted. Don't be an idiot and kill yourself. If you want. PM me. I'll try to keep track. Don't make the universe more shitty than it needs to be. If Dave was still alive, I'd ***** slap him and hug him, no homo. It hasn't had a good effect on me. He had so much potential.

[brigadista]

with respect to those saying what they would do if receiving a terminal diagnosis - you really don't know what you will do until it happens-

[ZeroNowhere]

It's not normal for someone to want to die. After all, we are animals, through the logic of evolution, a suicide instinct is what's worse. Wanting to die goes against what life is about (surviving, feeding and reproduction).Well, yes, it's not 'normal', inasmuch as most people don't do it. Lots of things aren't, though. As an asexual, however, I find your view that there is something wrong with not doing what the nonexistent 'Logic of Evolution' proclaimeth somewhat peculiar. Your attempt to justify what 'life is about' through the 'logic of evolution', as if what 'life is about' is a biological fact and part of evolutionary theory, doesn't really have much to do with actual biology.

Edit: I knew that I had seen this thread before!

[Luisrah]

Well, yes, it's not 'normal', inasmuch as most people don't do it. Lots of things aren't, though. As an asexual, however, I find your view that there is something wrong with not doing what the nonexistent 'Logic of Evolution' proclaimeth somewhat peculiar. Your attempt to justify what 'life is about' through the 'logic of evolution', as if what 'life is about' is a biological fact and part of evolutionary theory, doesn't really have much to do with actual biology.

Edit: I knew that I had seen this thread before!

I'm not sure we understood each other competely, probably because english is not my main language.

What I was trying to say was that wanting to die is harmful for the evolution of a species. Species evolve by being selected by the environment. The best are selected, and they reproduce more, and thus spread their characteristics to descendants.
If an animal kills itself, or has the instinct of suicide, it won't be able to spread the characteristic to it's descendants, and thus the more advanced animals won't have that characteristic.

That's why I'm saying that suicide isn't normal in the biological sense. What sense would it make for all the instincts of survival, millions of years of adaptation, if in the end, you kill yourself? Something is clearly wrong with that.
So if it isn't normal in that sense, it most probably means that a person that wants to kill herself has mental issues (being it something genetical, or something from their lives that troubles them)
In any case, usually, when that person gets treatment and the cause for the depression is written off, the person finds the will to live again.

Atleast, I think so.

[Fawkes]

Oh fuck, I had a friend do himself too. It was just aweful. I wish the mother fucker was around today. He felt unwanted, and I would have showed that he was very much wanted. He was an anti-fascist, and a friend of humanity. Shit, I wish he was around today. He ended his life with a noose, a death meant for the scum of the earth. I would have gotten him some fucking beer and a cradle of filth album if I could have. It was one of the saddest days of my mother fucking life when I found out he killed himself. i'd do anything to take that back. I loved the mother fucker. He was a really cool, guy, but life was too much for him. I betrayed and abandoned him by not being able to stop his death. It was so fucked up. I'm still not over it. It sucks so much. Fuck. I cried for hours when I found out. It just makes me kind of insane. God damn. Its so fucked up. He felt unwanted. I didn't do enough. Its just shit. I wish that never happened. I loved the guy. I mean god damn. I'm crying now. This was 2 years ago, and I'm still not over it.
Anyone who's suicidal, know you're fucking wanted. Don't be an idiot and kill yourself. If you want. PM me. I'll try to keep track. Don't make the universe more shitty than it needs to be. If Dave was still alive, I'd ***** slap him and hug him, no homo. It hasn't had a good effect on me. He had so much potential.

I empathize with your situation, believe me, but if you "don't [want to] make the universe more shitty than it needs to be", you could start by cutting the insecure homophobic bullshit:

I'd ***** slap him and hug him, no homo.

[Amphictyonis]

Suicide- when fear of death is outweighed by fear of life. I often wonder why more Christians don't kill themselves. Pearly gate and streets paved with gold and all....I think because at the end of the day most of them quietly know their belief is a fairy tale told to take away the fear of confronting meaninglessness in a vast incomprehensible universe.

For me, I want to extend this life as long as possible seeing it's the only thing I know that exists for sure. The thought of total annihilation after death is scary- it makes living life some what scary as well, if you think about such things too often. Kirkegaard did and embraced religion out of this fear. If I really believed 'heaven' awaited me at death I'd kill myself with a smile on my face. Unfortunately I think the only heaven thats even remotely possible will be here on earth in the tangible world. I guess Jim Jones really believed his own bullshit.

[ZeroNowhere]

If an animal kills itself, or has the instinct of suicide, it won't be able to spread the characteristic to it's descendants, and thus the more advanced animals won't have that characteristic.The same applies to not having sex, of course. This isn't 'normal', but is it wrong for some reason? Evolution, and the adaptation which it involves, has no purpose, in any case, whether or not you reproduce.

[Amphictyonis]

Kill the Buddha is what the Buddhists would say, which means, kill your conception of self and your problems will meld away but only if you also limit your desires (live a life of voluntary simplicity) and throw your ego out of the door (kill the Buddha). I guess that would be a good alternative to suicide but it isn't very much fun. I'm too much of a heathen hipster scum to kill the Buddha and throw my ego away.

I'm for the legalization of everything that doesn't produce a victim. I suppose suicide creates victims as in friends and family? Even if it was illegal what are you going to do? Send them to hell? I think the Catholic church has already tried that.

[ChrisK]

Suicide- when fear of death is outweighed by fear of life. I often wonder why more Christians don't kill themselves. Pearly gate and streets paved with gold and all....I think because at the end of the day most of them quietly know their belief is a fairy tale told to take away the fear of confronting meaninglessness in a vast incomprehensible universe.

For me, I want to extend this life as long as possible seeing it's the only thing I know that exists for sure. The thought of total annihilation after death is scary- it makes living life some what scary as well, if you think about such things too often. Kirkegaard did and embraced religion out of this fear. If I really believed 'heaven' awaited me at death I'd kill myself with a smile on my face. Unfortunately I think the only heaven thats even remotely possible will be here on earth in the tangible world. I guess Jim Jones really believed his own bullshit.

Because Christianity says you will burn in hell if you kill yourself.

[Amphictyonis]

Because Christianity says you will burn in hell if you kill yourself.

Only Catholics. Not the rest of the Christian sects. Christian sex? Sorry those two words just seem funny together. I be silly.

[ChrisK]

Only Catholics. Not the rest of the Christian sects.

Baptists too, and some Lutherans, and Fundamentalists. I have way too much experience in this issue.

[ChrisK]

Christian sects. Christian sex? Sorry those two words just seem funny together. I be silly.

Another myth. Christian's don't have sex. The wife lies down and the husband aims from across the room. But then again that is only the catholics.

[Os Cangaceiros]

How dare you cheat God out of the untimely death he has planned for you! :mad:

[Luisrah]

The same applies to not having sex, of course. This isn't 'normal', but is it wrong for some reason? Evolution, and the adaptation which it involves, has no purpose, in any case, whether or not you reproduce.

I am not saying it is wrong. What I am saying is that through that logic, you can somewhat ''prove'' that it isn't ''normal''.

The point I was trying to make was that usually it isn't normal to want to die, because most of the times your have a problem. A disease or something, and when that is taken care of, the person is usually grateful to be alive.

I think there should be effort to try and help people that want to kill themselves. Many times it is a rash decision. They should have help, and if they really want to kill themselves after having help, then very well.

[neosyndic]

x

[Simba420]

"Right to die" is bullshit, seek the causes for it and help the person.
if ya want to die, ya deserve to die.one less eater in the world poisoning mother earth