Pop quize!!

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Cameraman:
http://www.arch.uiuc.edu/Projects/Arch199ITA/Archive%202001/cameraman.jpg

Man with rocket launcher:
http://about.reuters.com/media/c-news-images/slide_images/rocket_launcher.jpg


Can you tell the difference?

Evidently U.S. troops can't... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3159019.stm

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

LOL
ass-hole U$ soldier-assasins :angry:

[Rastafari]

hmm.. well, it was at long range (actually, I guess it wasn't), and that particular soldier hadn't killed anybody else, so I guess it was bound to happen sometime.


But maybe that cameraman was an Iraqi, (or worse) a fan of Geraldo, or maybe he would have maybe been one. Makes me feel safe at night to know that Geraldo-lovin' bastard is dead, personally...

[Felicia]

hahaha :D

[BOZG]

No matter what happened, the US soldiers did not took a kneejerk reaction without any caution.

At close range, it would be clear that it was a camera.
At long range, it would be first logical to use binoculars to identify what it was because at such a range, it could be anything at all on his shoulder.

[sliverchrist]

well, I think that I passed.

Don&#39;t get me wrong, the incident blows, but I some of my best teachers were active in the military, in some pretty hot spots, and some of the things that they have told me <but mostly the stuff they hace declined to tell me> makes me wonder about just how easy it could be to do something like that, something you probably regret and suffer through the rest of your life.

thats I&#39;ll I&#39;ve got to say on that. :)

[RedCeltic]

oh... reminds me of that quote from Full Metal Jacket... how does that go? Just of the top of my head here....but.... the scene in the chopper with the gunner firing at pesents working in rice paddies... and said;

"Anyone who runs, is a V.C. anyone who doesn&#39;t run is a well Disciplined V.C."

[Loknar]

Ther are many differnt kinds of rocket launchers. Some look like a camera from long range. Not the RPG you showed. And I need to remind you all that this was from a distance. Most American troops arent bent on killing Iraqis, they are following the orders of their C-in-C.

[Loknar]

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/individual/pf89.asp

[RedCeltic]

click on the link to the BBC news article. There is a photo of the man killed and the camra he used. It doesn&#39;t look anything like those weapons.

[Rastafari]

I agree completely Sliverchrist.

Loknar, the Orders of the C-in-C ARE to kill Iraqis&#33;

[Loknar]

Guys, when under fire and when someone is a ways from the fighting it may freak you out to see some dude with a tube like object on his shoulder, what if it was a a man with a RPG? Click on the link, look at that PLA AT weapon. Out of curiosity, have any of you ever been in combat? I have not, buit if I were I am sure I&#39;d be pretty jumpy when under fire.


Their orders are to kill terrorists. If the general order was to kill Iraqis there would be massive blood baths on the streets.

[IHP]

Under fire? That&#39;s funny enough. But secondly, soldiers are trained not to be &#39;jumpy&#39; or twitchy. They are supposed to be disciplined enough to shoot at something that remotely appears like a rocket launcher. Much like hotels with jounalists in it I suppose.

--IHP

[Loknar]

Yes they are. But it is easy to mistake a man with a camera from a man with a rocket launcher. It takes only seconds for that thing to hit you. Tell me, would you have simply looked at the camera man and just have known what his function in the area was?


Guys, could it be that this was an accident?

[RedCeltic]

Their orders are to kill terrorists. If the general order was to kill Iraqis there would be massive blood baths on the streets.

The people they are trying to kill are not "Terrorists" but rather Iraqis defending their countery from a hostile (illegal) invasion.

If they were killing civilians like say camramen, than they would be terrorists. ;)

[Urban Rubble]

You know what, I think this whole war is horrible. I think it&#39;s terribly unfortunate that this camerman was killed. But to say this soldier was some kind of madman who was out for blood is nuts. Put away your political feelings for a second and imagine this : You&#39;re in a battle where your life is in danger. You have instructions to kill or be killed. You&#39;re jumpy, you&#39;re scared. You&#39;re out in the desert and from far away you see a guy holding something on his shoulder and pointing it a you.

It&#39;s very easy to sit back in your comfy little chair and judge this man. He made a mistake, yes, a serious one. But to act like it&#39;s a war crime is nuts.

I think the soldiers that opened fire on the crowd of protestors was alot worse. Now that&#39;s a war crime.

And if that guy was a Geraldo fan, well then good riddance.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2003, 01:01 AM
You know what, I think this whole war is horrible. I think it&#39;s terribly unfortunate that this camerman was killed. But to say this soldier was some kind of madman who was out for blood is nuts. Put away your political feelings for a second and imagine this : You&#39;re in a battle where your life is in danger. You have instructions to kill or be killed. You&#39;re jumpy, you&#39;re scared. You&#39;re out in the desert and from far away you see a guy holding something on his shoulder and pointing it a you.

It&#39;s very easy to sit back in your comfy little chair and judge this man. He made a mistake, yes, a serious one. But to act like it&#39;s a war crime is nuts.

I think the soldiers that opened fire on the crowd of protestors was alot worse. Now that&#39;s a war crime.

And if that guy was a Geraldo fan, well then good riddance.
The US Militery made excuses for killing whole villages in Vietnam in the same way that you made excuses for this. Sure.. this was just a little mistake... one of many in this conflict.

The first being, people actually believing George W. Bush when he spoke about the WMD as if he saw them there himself.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 02:16 AM
oh... reminds me of that quote from Full Metal Jacket... how does that go? Just of the top of my head here....but.... the scene in the chopper with the gunner firing at pesents working in rice paddies... and said;

"Anyone who runs, is a V.C. anyone who doesn&#39;t run is a well Disciplined V.C."
Any women or children?
Sometimes
How do you shoot women and children?
You just don&#39;t lead &#39;em so much....hahaha...ain&#39;t war hell&#33;?

[BOZG]

be massive blood baths on the streets.

What exactly is the continuous killing of 15 Iraqis a day?

[RedCeltic]

Any women or children?
Sometimes
How do you shoot women and children?
You just don&#39;t lead &#39;em so much....hahaha...ain&#39;t war hell&#33;?


Oh yeah&#33; haha... I love that movie... so much of it is just so true... haha. A very anti war war movie.

[suffianr]

Mazzen was the 17th "war correspondent" killed in Iraq. So much for occupational hazards.

For a Palestinian, it was a cruel irony to have survived working in hotspots in the West Bank, only to get slotted by "peacekeepers" in Iraq.

What a complete fucking mess.

[Loknar]

These guys follow the fighting they do so at their own risk.

[Moskitto]

The cameraman was Palestinian and according to the report it appeared to be a pre-arranged film shot of the tank, not in battle, Unless the tank crew where passing and didn&#39;t know what was happening which is probably most likely, they should have known what was going on, if they didn&#39;t know what was going on, they should have realised that it was a guy with a camera if he had been speaking to annother soldier (and the fact that a camera doesn&#39;t look like a RPG.) This is more an incident of soldiers making a very stupid and tragic mistake, this isn&#39;t a battlefield mistake which is very plausable, there should be very serious questions raised about the tank crew&#39;s competancy in the military, but by reading this I daubt they went out to kill this guy knowing he was a cameraman.

[suffianr]

These guys follow the fighting they do so at their own risk.

Of course they do. But that&#39;s to ensure that smug little bastards like you get they coverage they pay for on CNN.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 05:22 PM

These guys follow the fighting they do so at their own risk.

Of course they do. But that&#39;s to ensure that smug little bastards like you get they coverage they pay for on CNN.
Wrong, it is to record exactly what happens. I am not some lame brain who sat home watching the war all the time.

[Zombie]

Errr Felicia, why are you laughing? This is really sad, imo.



I am not some lame brain who sat home watching the war all the time.

Of course not, godforbid. You were actually on the field fighting with your comprades, weren&#39;t you.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 09:32 PM
Errr Felicia, why are you laughing? This is really sad, imo.



I am not some lame brain who sat home watching the war all the time.

Of course not, godforbid. You were actually on the field fighting with your comprades, weren&#39;t you.

No, I did my normal stuff.

[Xvall]

May I ask you something, Loknar?

[Loknar]

I suppose so, even though I know the question wont be nice.

[Xvall]

It is a very nice question.
I am a swell guy&#33;

How much wood would a &#39;woodchuck&#39; chuck if said &#39;woodchuck&#39; was capable of chucking said wood.

[suffianr]

Wrong, it is to record exactly what happens.

That&#39;s a forgone conclusion, you simplistic little snot. That&#39;s what journalists do. So what&#39;s your point in stating the obvious? Nothing better to reply with? Of course they&#39;re there to record exactly what happens. Come one, try harder.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 03:18 AM

Wrong, it is to record exactly what happens.

That&#39;s a forgone conclusion, you simplistic little snot. That&#39;s what journalists do. So what&#39;s your point in stating the obvious? Nothing better to reply with? Of course they&#39;re there to record exactly what happens. Come one, try harder.
They are there to record things. It is a very important job and it does not let governments get away with some very bad actions (US in Nam). Despite that some are annoying I regard their work as very important. In terms of historical value it is priceless. However with this in mind they have to be very careful of where they are and what they are doing.

[suffianr]

You didn&#39;t answer my question. And why are you still stating the obvious? Do you like stating the obvious? Do you go outside and say things like "Hmmm, it&#39;s sunny today, but that&#39;s because it&#39;s not cloudy, and that&#39;s what the weatherman said it was going to be like, anyway."

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 03:52 AM
You didn&#39;t answer my question. And why are you still stating the obvious? Do you like stating the obvious? Do you go outside and say things like "Hmmm, it&#39;s sunny today, but that&#39;s because it&#39;s not cloudy, and that&#39;s what the weatherman said it was going to be like, anyway."
I did answer your question. Does presentation of a different perspective suit what you&#39;re looking for?


Let me guess, you&#39;re looking for something like "they are there to film American soldiers killing Iraqi&#39;s" or some bullshit like that


Dude, I have already ignored your rudeness, will you try to not sound like an asshole? This is exactly what I am talking about, this is a OI thread and I am treated like shit by people like you.

[suffianr]

You already assume people are going to treat you that way, so you end up going into discussions in a defensive and hostile manner in the first place, and unwittingly, create conditions and tailor responses to meet those pre-conceived notions. In other words, it&#39;s self-fulfilling prophecy, and most of the time, you&#39;re asking for it.

I was only being rude because I was horribly disgusted by what I considered as your trivial attitude towards the death of the cameraman. War correspondants are fully aware of the consequences of being in a warzone, well, with the execption of brilliant writers like Michael Herr (Dispatches), who went to Nam with an open mind, but it doesn&#39;t mean we should suffer their deaths much easier because of that.


Let me guess, you&#39;re looking for something like "they are there to film American soldiers killing Iraqi&#39;s" or some bullshit like that

No, I wasn&#39;t expecting that at all. I honestly wanted to know why you&#39;d said such obvious things without implying further elaboration. That&#39;s all.


Well, suit yourself. Enjoy your stay.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 04:48 AM
You already assume people are going to treat you that way, so you end up going into discussions in a defensive and hostile manner in the first place, and unwittingly, create conditions and tailor responses to meet those pre-conceived notions. In other words, it&#39;s self-fulfilling prophecy, and most of the time, you&#39;re asking for it.

I was only being rude because I was horribly disgusted by what I considered as your trivial attitude towards the death of the cameraman. War correspondants are fully aware of the consequences of being in a warzone, well, with the execption of brilliant writers like Michael Herr (Dispatches), who went to Nam with an open mind, but it doesn&#39;t mean we should suffer their deaths much easier because of that.


Let me guess, you&#39;re looking for something like "they are there to film American soldiers killing Iraqi&#39;s" or some bullshit like that

No, I wasn&#39;t expecting that at all. I honestly wanted to know why you&#39;d said such obvious things without implying further elaboration. That&#39;s all.


Well, suit yourself. Enjoy your stay.
My intention was not to belittle them. If I came off that way I have mislead you.


And I am saddened you&#39;re over the age of 20, I am 19 and my left nut has more respect.

[suffianr]

And I am saddened you&#39;re over the age of 20, I am 19 and my left nut has more respect.

I&#39;m glad you got that off your chest. And seeing as how "immature" I am, well, say hello to your left nut for me.