Forming a Trotskyist Group at my school

[PolishTrotsky]

Okay, I'll sum this up in a few points:
-I am Trotskyist
-I am trying to set up a Communist Revolutionary group at my school
-I need some tips
So, I am in a Middle School. People I know are already forming Political Opinions. For example My friend is an Anarchist. However, they are blinded by American Propeganda. Anyways, I can easily change their opinion. So, what are some ideas?

[The Idler]

Just get a few of the clever kids and take over.

[L.A.P.]

Make sure you oppose socialism in one school and promote permanent revolution in the whole school district. Also, start a revolution against the popular kids.:laugh:

Seriously though, that's great but if I were you I would make the group multi-tendency because if you make it strictly trotskyist then you'll alienate other leftists.

[revolution inaction]

don't

[Q]

Great initiative. But I agree with xx1994xx and don't think it's wise to make it strictly Trotskyist. Do draw up some basic principles though, but keep it so that it separates the genuinely interested in revolutionary politics from the left-leaning liberals. A clear statement against capitalism, for free education and students and teachers collectively running the school democratically would go some way.

Also, nurture a climate of active discussion and debate as this helps you to flesh out your group's ideas and educate them in political abilities. You can join a bigger national group if you feel it could help you. You can also learn from other groups. Two groups I know of in the UK at least (I don't know any specific studentgroups in the US) are Socialist Students (http://www.socialiststudents.org.uk/) and Communist Students (http://communiststudents.org.uk/).

[Widerstand]

Great initiative. But I agree with xx1994xx and don't think it's wise to make it strictly Trotskyist. Do draw up some basic principles though, but keep it so that it separates the genuinely interested in revolutionary politics from the left-leaning liberals. A clear statement against capitalism, for free education and students and teachers collectively running the school democratically would go some way.

Also, nurture a climate of active discussion and debate as this helps you to flesh out your group's ideas and educate them in political abilities. You can join a bigger national group if you feel it could help you. You can also learn from other groups. Two groups I know of in the UK at least (I don't know any specific studentgroups in the US) are Socialist Students (http://www.socialiststudents.org.uk/) and Communist Students (http://communiststudents.org.uk/).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_a_Democratic_Society_(2006_organizati on)

This might be worth looking into, though they don't sound too radical.

[red cat]

Okay, I'll sum this up in a few points:
-I am Trotskyist
-I am trying to set up a Communist Revolutionary group at my school
-I need some tips
So, I am in a Middle School. People I know are already forming Political Opinions. For example My friend is an Anarchist. However, they are blinded by American Propeganda. Anyways, I can easily change their opinion. So, what are some ideas?

Don't you think you're a bit too young for this ? I suggest that you keep it limited to a study circle and discussion sessions for some time. Invite leftist friends from all tendencies, and no need to join any bigger organizations, as they will almost certainly bias your thinking. After you mature and gain strength in numbers, you can participate in class struggle.

[Triple A]

Don't you think you're a bit too young for this ? I suggest that you keep it limited to a study circle and discussion sessions for some time. Invite leftist friends from all tendencies, and no need to join any bigger organizations, as they will almost certainly bias your thinking. After you mature and gain strength in numbers, you can participate in class struggle.


I agree with this.
Try to make a study group and debate leftism with your mates.
Be aware that some of your mates wont have political conscience.

[Morgenstern]

Assuming we're talking high school I'd say don't. High school is a time to develop yourself, not work towards revolution. Few organizations take people of a young age seriously (ageism). The only time the mainstream media and mainstream groups of control take us seriously is when we say something that they want us to say. Ageism is a sad thing but we should just wait for now, it's only a few years out until college.

Now college on the other hand... the USA needs some good college groups.

[Mannimarco]

Don't spread your vile reactionary disorder to people who could potentially be real communists.

A chicken in every pot, and a pick in every Trot.

This is flagrant flaming. Take this as a verbal warning. If all you contribute to this site is trolling and stoking the tendency wars you will soon find yourself banned. - Bob The Builder

[Sam_b]

Assuming we're talking high school I'd say don't. High school is a time to develop yourself, not work towards revolution. Few organizations take people of a young age seriously (ageism). The only time the mainstream media and mainstream groups of control take us seriously is when we say something that they want us to say. Ageism is a sad thing but we should just wait for now, it's only a few years out until college.

I haven't got time to respond to this now but this is complete and utter crap.

[Red Commissar]

I agree with the rest here- don't restrict your views or membership solely on being "Trotskyist" or not- it's hard enough to find leftists and you'll just make it worse by restricting it.

More importantly though I'm not sure how feasible this group would work in a middle-school environment. At that age I suggest bringing together like minded people on a private basis and solidifying your understanding of Marxism, anarchism, socialism in general, and radical politics. Especially if you know some of them will come with you into High School, they'll provide a useful base for forming a political group to counter the "Young Republicans" and "Young Democrats" (or in my school back in the day, "Young Libertarians":laugh:).

In short I'd recommend against establishing such a group in Middle-School- save that for High School. For now find people who hold similar views and build up a base for such a group in High School.

I'd argue really in high school it is more when people begin to become more politically aware and where you might have some success (however little it might be). It'll at least get you ready for the mindset in College where political discourse is even more loud, and again you'll see the usually suspects- Young Dems, Young Reps., Young Libertarians, etc etc.

[the youth dialectic]

The first thing to know about building a revolutionary organization from scratch is that almost any young person can be converted into a revolutionary.

you should try and get your friends and siblings to join your group to learn about the basics of revolutionary thinking. A group of 7 is enough to build a solid revolutionary group that can lead your country to revolution. there is no age limit for a revolutionary, in fact, the older generation is held back by their conservative idealism, the youth must be the leaders, the youth will be the leaders!

the articles on my page should be used to teach others about revolution, no prior knowlege is needed. start with the programme while applying it to the specific conditions of your own country, then discuss dialectics, and then the evolution of consciousness.

the other articles should be discussed after discussing and understanding the first three articles

more articles will come soon on science, history of the modern era since the french revolution, history of marxism, world perspectives and tactics for building a revolution. this will be everything you need to know to lead a revolution in your country.

you should not allow revolutionaries of other tendencies to join your organization. their misunderstanding of revolutionary thinking will confuse the other members of your group. you must dismiss all non trotskyist tendencies as opportunist (counter revolutionary)

once your group has a revolutionary consciosness, you can start to distribute magazines and leafletes throughout the community.
the dialectical presentation of the communist ideal will spread irrististably throughout your community and nation.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Instead of building an organization for its own sake, find things worth doing.

When I was younger, this meant distributing literature, inviting speakers and . . .
uh . . . not stinkbombing local corporate chains. 'Cos I mean, that'd just be hooliganism and I was totally above that.

:thumbup:

Seriously though - don't put the cart before the horse - an organization for its own sake is useless. Think of something you want to accomplish, then decide how the group should work on the basis of achieving a concrete goal. Putting out a radical newspaper, for example, requires a very different style of group than . . . hooliganism.

HOOLIGANISM. HINT.

[Ocean Seal]

Okay, I'll sum this up in a few points:
-I am Trotskyist
-I am trying to set up a Communist Revolutionary group at my school
-I need some tips
So, I am in a Middle School. People I know are already forming Political Opinions. For example My friend is an Anarchist. However, they are blinded by American Propeganda. Anyways, I can easily change their opinion. So, what are some ideas?



I started out my own revolutionary socialist group in eighth grade so perhaps I can offer some advice.

Be non-sectarian
Right off the bat I can tell you, don't make it a Trotskyist group. You say your friend is an anarchist, make it such that people from all parts of the revolutionary left can join. Try to make it tendency neutral. My group was mostly made up of Maoists and Anarchists, but we made it work because we were still a minority group.

Working to your advantage you have the fact that at this age political opinion is still somewhat malleable for the general population.

Some other things

Target things which appeal to people.
If you live in Europe or North America you are going to have a large population of workers. More importantly they are workers who aren't too happy. Make sure that you direct their satisfaction towards the enemies of the people: The corporations and the corporate run government. Make sure that the struggle is about them.

Don't label people
You might be inclined to think of some kids as reactionaries because of the way they act or what they say. Some believe in giving more power to the government. Some may call Obama a socialist. That doesn't mean that they can't be turned. As a supplement to this argument, keep in mind that people's opinions are molded by material conditions. Some people may be anti-immigration, some might be anti-welfare, some might want increased privatization. They may be self-described as right wingers. But as I said before, workers are dissatisfied. This dissatisfaction can turn them towards the right. Make sure to show them who is causing the real trouble. The bourgeoisie. They'll soon adopt platforms that go with the socialist message.

We are radical so we don't need to be perceived as more radical
On the left we risk the chance of being labeled as counter-culturalists. Why? Well we advocate strikes, and reject the current mode of production. Which is the only mode of production that most Americans know. Don't preach against morality or start labeling everything you don't like as reactionary. We are here to make change, not waste our breath. As a rather extreme example: Drunk driving; there seems to be a strong stance against this, and for good reason. A counter-culturalist would support the drunk drivers, freedom yeah!!. But we shouldn't make this our platform ever. It is unnecessarily shocking and disagreeable. Avoid unnecessarily shocking and disagreeable, it works to your disadvantage. Remember if you could advocate one radical position, which would it be: Socialism.

When explaining: Be nice, be clear, and if you see someone who might be persuaded go for them.
Be nice. If you're nice to people, they might open up to you. Make sure that you make some kind of effort to be nice to others and to be respectful. You don't have to turn into Mother Theresa, but just understand that what you're explaining is a concept that isn't very intuitive for most people in America. When explaining use analogies and examples, and be willing to give an explanation to anyone who is willing to listen. Notice if someone is especially persuaded. They might talk to you afterwards and explain their qualms with your position. Be ready and prepared, and address their qualms as important, but resolved by your position.

Be sensitive
The last and most important one. On a leftist forum you might be able to get away with attacks against several different institutions, but it will be much more difficult to do so in a general setting. Keep in mind that many people might have a relative in the police or in the armed forces. Criticize things like imperialism, the war, riot cops, and police brutality, but make sure to move the blame away from those most numerous. Soldiers/ police officers are not your target. A way to attack the war is to stealthily hide an attack on it while supporting the individual troop.

Example: The war is fought for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. The rich send our troops to fight for their profits.

Example:
The ruling class forces the police to uphold discrimination in order to keep the workers divided and depressed. The ruling class turns minorities into the enemy, and never give them a chance to succeed. Look at the numbers. African Americans make up 41% of all prison inmates. This places a social stigma on them and causes a rift between races. This distracts from the real issue which is the fact that the ruling class has been long abusing workers of every race.

Don't make arbitrary rules
Don't create divisions for the sake of doing so. As in don't make it you can only join if you've read Kapital or something ridiculous. Don't call someone an oppressor. Don't state that you need your parents to be proletarians to join. This will cause both the kid whose dad owns a shop to quit and the kid who has family that are agrarian workers to quit.

[Nuvem]

I really urge you to not base the group out of the school if at all possible. In middle and high school, it only takes a few phone calls from pissed off parents to ruin loads of hard work and organizing. To put it in perspective, my old high school didn't even allow Leftist political groups and our GLBT club was shut down just because a few parents called in and threw a fit- and that was just a club promoting equality for non-heterosexuals, much less controversial than a radical Communist organization.

[Mannimarco]

I really urge you to not base the group out of the school if at all possible. In middle and high school, it only takes a few phone calls from pissed off parents to ruin loads of hard work and organizing. To put it in perspective, my old high school didn't even allow Leftist political groups and our GLBT club was shut down just because a few parents called in and threw a fit- and that was just a club promoting equality for non-heterosexuals, much less controversial than a radical Communist organization.

Wow. You should have complained to the board of education. That's severe bigotry.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I really urge you to not base the group out of the school if at all possible. In middle and high school, it only takes a few phone calls from pissed off parents to ruin loads of hard work and organizing. To put it in perspective, my old high school didn't even allow Leftist political groups and our GLBT club was shut down just because a few parents called in and threw a fit- and that was just a club promoting equality for non-heterosexuals, much less controversial than a radical Communist organization.

To be attacked by the enemy is a good thing . . .
-Some dead guy

When my high school anarchist group came under fire from school administrators, we turned it into the worst headache they'd ever had. If you want to attract attention, and create a space for talking about issues, go toe-to-toe with the principal (chances are that they're widely disliked, if my experience with principals is at all typical). Seriously, when conservative parents and administration try to shut down students talking about liberating themselves (as queers, as anarchists, as whatever) it's totally the right time to escalate. If they tell you to stop putting up posters, put up more - if they tell you to stop meeting, hold bigger, more public meetings - and so on. I mean, it's fucking high school - the worst they can do is expel you (who gives a shit? succeeding in high school makes no fucking difference, I promise), or try to have you charged with, like, mischief (which will disappear once you're no longer a minor).

SRSLY. STEP IT UP.

Or like, call the ACLU, and ask them to fight the battle for you. They're into these things.

[bricolage]

Two groups I know of in the UK at least (I don't know any specific studentgroups in the US) are Socialist Students (http://www.socialiststudents.org.uk/) and Communist Students (http://communiststudents.org.uk/).
It's a bit misleading for you to talk of keeping it 'multi-tendency' then post links to two students groups that are appendages of larger parties (one of which, ironically, Trotskyist) in themselves.

Few organizations take people of a young age seriously (ageism).
In the UK right now kids as young as eleven have been walking out of school and engaging in militant demonstrations across the country. More fool the organisations that don't take them seriously.

[Ztrain]

Don't spread your vile reactionary disorder to people who could potentially be real communists.

A chicken in every pot, and a pick in every Trot.

This is flagrant flaming. Take this as a verbal warning. If all you contribute to this site is trolling and stoking the tendency wars you will soon find yourself banned. - Bob The Builder
Wow can you say Fringe Politics!

[Ztrain]

Be non sectarian I advise...The only leftists who are COMPLETELEY WRONG are and should be ignored aer Maoists

[PolishTrotsky]

Thanks everyone. Especially Virgin Molotov Cocktail's first post. The Hint was good

Also, Thanks for the Advice Nuvem. I didn't think of Fascist Parents throwing a fit :D
And Thanks everyone for the idea of not making it strictly Trotskyist. It's a good Idea.

[the last donut of the night]

Assuming we're talking high school I'd say don't. High school is a time to develop yourself, not work towards revolution. Few organizations take people of a young age seriously (ageism). The only time the mainstream media and mainstream groups of control take us seriously is when we say something that they want us to say. Ageism is a sad thing but we should just wait for now, it's only a few years out until college.


1. This assumes most every high school student will go to college.

2. This is ageist and patronizing.

3. This is very defeatist.

4. So what about the poor kids (mostly of color) that have to go to schools with metal detectors, cops, shitty education, and gang violence? Let them wait and go to college, so your illusions can be fed?

what a load of shit

[Q]

It's a bit misleading for you to talk of keeping it 'multi-tendency' then post links to two students groups that are appendages of larger parties (one of which, ironically, Trotskyist) in themselves.

Both are relevant to the subject at hand: Socialist Students is explicitly Trotskyist and the OP wants to set up a Trotskyist youthgroup and could learn from its politics. Communist Students, despite what you say, is an independent student group that was set up by the CPGB a few years ago (have a look at the "meet the executive" page for example: you'll see only two (out of five) CPGB members there).

[bricolage]

Both are relevant to the subject at hand: Socialist Students is explicitly Trotskyist and the OP wants to set up a Trotskyist youthgroup and could learn from its politics.
Well yes the OP did say that but then again you said;

Great initiative. But I agree with xx1994xx and don't think it's wise to make it strictly Trotskyist.
Followed up with a 'strictly Trotskyist' group...

Communist Students, despite what you say, is an independent student group that was set up by the CPGB a few years ago (have a look at the "meet the executive" page for example: you'll see only two (out of five) CPGB members there).
I'm well aware of all that. I still don't believe a group set up by a party can ever really be independent from it.

[Q]

Well yes the OP did say that but then again you said;

Followed up with a 'strictly Trotskyist' group...
Just trying to keep things on topic.


I'm well aware of all that. I still don't believe a group set up by a party can ever really be independent from it.

Why exactly is that?

[Sam_b]

Both are relevant to the subject at hand: Socialist Students is explicitly Trotskyist and the OP wants to set up a Trotskyist youthgroup and could learn from its politics. Communist Students, despite what you say, is an independent student group that was set up by the CPGB a few years ago (have a look at the "meet the executive" page for example: you'll see only two (out of five) CPGB members there).

No love for SWSS? Pretty sure you know them, and pretty sure they're a student group.

[L.A.P.]

Don't spread your vile reactionary disorder to people who could potentially be real communists.

A chicken in every pot, and a pick in every Trot.

This is flagrant flaming. Take this as a verbal warning. If all you contribute to this site is trolling and stoking the tendency wars you will soon find yourself banned. - Bob The Builder

Quit being a dick!

[PolishTrotsky]

Quit being a dick!
thanks, xx1994xx. Why does everyone hate Leon Trotsky?

[Widerstand]

thanks, xx1994xx. Why does everyone hate Leon Trotsky?

He just couldn't keep his shit together.

[Reznov]

Dam, reading some of these posts makes me feel bad.

I was looking at girls and playing video games in the 8th grade.

[Tablo]

Same here Reznov. It wasn't until the end of 8th that I became an atheist and started studying politics.

[Q]

No love for SWSS? Pretty sure you know them, and pretty sure they're a student group.

Hmm, you're right, there are many more groups.

Here is a comprehensive list to all the socialist student and youth groups (http://communiststudents.org.uk/?page_id=460) (scroll a bit down).

Wikipedia isn't very helpful though, I can't find comprehensive lists of the USA :(

[Tablo]

Hmm, you're right, there are many more groups.

Here is a comprehensive list to all the socialist student and youth groups (http://communiststudents.org.uk/?page_id=460) (scroll a bit down).

Wikipedia isn't very helpful though, I can't find comprehensive lists of the USA :(
I don't think there are many good groups like that in the US to begin with.. SDS, while focusing primarily on anti-war, labor rights, and students rights I think is a good group since it attracts mostly socialists to begin with. Everyone in my chapter is a real socialist except for a random democrat that rarely comes to meetings.

[WeAreReborn]

thanks, xx1994xx. Why does everyone hate Leon Trotsky?
Not everyone hates him. The guy who just posted is a Stalinist troll. But I personally am not a fan because he was a military general and he was authoritarian. But besides that I really don't care. But yeah just to reinforce other posts avoid a sectarian group. I suggest posters and pamphlets. Try to make an after school group and maybe some lunch meetings? But taking up the whole lunch would be a turn off to most students... But try to incorporate the students likes as well and make it personal when you try to convert. If you know the kids likes then you can make connections with said interest. In doing so, especially for a younger teenager, you have a much higher chance of converting. But make sure you have them read a lot and make them understand deeply why the oppose the current system. If you just get the kid to say he is a Trot or Anarchist it means nothing and may just act as a phase. If the kid reinforces his knowledge on the subject it has a higher chance to last longer. So good luck comrade! :thumbup1:

[Mannimarco]

thanks, xx1994xx. Why does everyone hate Leon Trotsky?

Because he divided the movement bitterly just because he was jealous of Stalin, and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism. He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

[Q]

Because he divided the movement bitterly just because he was jealous of Stalin, and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism. He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

If you have nothing to add to this topic, please don't reply.

[Hit The North]

Because he divided the movement bitterly just because he was jealous of Stalin, and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism. He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

Someone's been reading Nineteen Eighty-four :rolleyes::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate

[red cat]

Be non sectarian I advise...The only leftists who are COMPLETELEY WRONG are and should be ignored aer Maoists

Contradiction is in the air ! :lol:

[red cat]

Because he divided the movement bitterly just because he was jealous of Stalin, and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism. He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

Very true, but I think that the OP needs to be encouraged to be active nevertheless, and this thread should be used to inform him about the basic principles of organizing the working class. There are other threads from where he can learn more about Trotsky if he wants to.

[L.A.P.]

Because he divided the movement bitterly just because he was jealous of Stalin, and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism. He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

Mannimarco, what did I tell you god damn it!?

[Hit The North]

Very true, but I think that the OP needs to be encouraged to be active nevertheless, and this thread should be used to inform him about the basic principles of organizing the working class. There are other threads from where he can learn more about Trotsky if he wants to.

Indeed, and he would be wise to actually learn about Trotsky rather than listen to the lies spouted almost like ritualistic mantra by the devotees of a dead dictator.

[Jazzhands]

and he made up most of the lies the bourgeoisie today use to damage communism.

So him being brained with an ice axe never happened?


He is a tool of the western bourgeoisie with which to silence communism.

Whereas the eastern bourgeoisie used an ice axe. ZING!:lol:

[Q]

Let's stop feeding the troll, give him some more negreps if you want, and get back to topic.

[Palingenisis]

Let's stop feeding the troll, give him some more negreps if you want, and get back to topic.

So some one is a troll now for speaking his mind (which happens to be the truth aswell?)...Good one. Forget about arguments when insults will do.

Pretty typical of the CWI.

[Q]

So some one is a troll now for speaking his mind (which happens to be the truth aswell?)...Good one. Forget about arguments when insults will do.

Pretty typical of the CWI.

Yeah, respond like a troll. Whatever makes your day.

Can a global cut away the crap perhaps, so that we're back on topic?

[red cat]

Indeed, and he would be wise to actually learn about Trotsky rather than listen to the lies spouted almost like ritualistic mantra by the devotees of a dead dictator.

A dead would be dictator, that is. ;)

It's good that the OP is so eager to be active. The correct line establishes itself through nothing other than activism.

[dearest chuck]

i don't know if you realize this but you might be headed down a dead end. please don't throw away your youth.

[PolishTrotsky]

Ha, well I just think I've got a chance to form said group. as a Popular student was just kicked out, which is causing a hatred of the School burgoisie-run government. So, it is possible that I can start it.

[dearest chuck]

do they have leslie nielsen in poland? why don't you and all your comrades get together this weekend for a leslie nielsen marathon?

[PolishTrotsky]

do they have leslie nielsen in poland? why don't you and all your comrades get together this weekend for a leslie nielsen marathon?
To tell the truth, I am a Polish Nationalist who believes in Communism, and Ironically, I don't live in Poland :blink:

[red cat]

To tell the truth, I am a Polish Nationalist who believes in Communism, and Ironically, I don't live in Poland :blink:

I wonder how other Trotskyites will react to this. :lol:

[Widerstand]

Nationalist Trotskyist?

Sure is dialectical in there.

:)

[Q]

How do you combine Polish nationalism with the internationalist principles of the Trotskyist tradition?

[PolishTrotsky]

How do you combine Polish nationalism with the internationalist principles of the Trotskyist tradition?
Easily. You just take Nationalist ideals and combine them with the Ideas of supporting Communist Revolutions elsewhere. I guess you could call it an "Independant Permenant Revolution."

[Q]

Easily. You just take Nationalist ideals and combine them with the Ideas of supporting Communist Revolutions elsewhere. I guess you could call it an "Independant Permenant Revolution."

For Trotskyists, and Marxists in general, this is not so "easily" done. Socialism, let alone communism, cannot be achieved on a national scale. This is because of the fact that capitalism is a global system and can only be transcended globally. The working class fortunately (and by nature of the system) is a global class as well and for this reason we strive for the greatest unity of our class. Concretely this would mean, in the first place, European unification into a common federative republic.

That said, communists don't ignore the national questions of minorities that strive for more self-determination. Communists defend self-determination up to and including independence. The Bolsheviks for example, after they took power, granted independence to Finland and the Baltic states. However, self-determination does not equal independence and we do actively argue for unity. The overriding point of unity however is that it can only work if it is voluntary.

That said, how is Poland a supressed national minority? If I remember correctly, this issue was solved after world war one.

[Wanted Man]

I wonder how other Trotskyites will react to this. :lol:

There is a precedent in the great history of Revleft. We used to have this user called "Red Polak" who was a Polish nationalist and a Trotskyist. She also had this thing about the evils of race mixing. I believe she was eventually banned for that.

[Honggweilo]

if there is one thing that need to be erradicated in Poland, its rabid nationalism...

[Aurora]

I dont remember Red Polak being nationalist, iirc she was an IMT member or maybe im thinking of someone else.

PolishTrotsky which nationalist ideals are you talking about?

[PolishTrotsky]

@ Q:
The Polish Question wasn't solved. It was a deformed workers' state that ended up reverting to Capitalism. Wojciech Jaruzelski wasn't the most liberal person. Also, Nationalism can exist with Communism/Trotskyim. You can support other revolutions and other countries that are communist while being independant. Instead of one Global Country, Many countries in a UN-like organization could operate.

@ Wanted Man, Deconditions Revleft +1, and Anarion:
I just want to point out 2 things: I'm not Red Polak, just want to say that, and How can you say you're Communist than say "Races should be pure and not interbred." Makes no since.

Also,

[IndependentCitizen]

To tell the truth, I am a Polish Nationalist who believes in Communism, and Ironically, I don't live in Poland :blink:



I literally just facepalmed. It now hurts, thanks dude.

[PolishTrotsky]

I literally just facepalmed. It now hurts, thanks dude.
You're very welcome.
And, IT IS COMPATIBLE. :mad:

[IronEastBloc]

isn't communism illegal in poland? that probably is not a good idea.

[IndependentCitizen]

You're very welcome.
And, IT IS COMPATIBLE. :mad:

I'd like to see a detailed explanation as to how...

I cannot see nationalism being applied to any form of communism.


isn't communism illegal in poland? that probably is not a good idea.

PolishTrotsky doesn't live in Poland, but considers himself as a Polish nationalist....

[Leo]

Also, Nationalism can exist with Communism/Trotskyim. Well it does with Trotskyism, although I am pretty sure you just rather embarrassed lots of Trotskyists on this website by saying that you consider yourself both a nationalist and a Trotskyist.

Nationalism can not, however co-exist with communism. I would recommend this book written by Rosa Luxemburg, herself a communist of Polish origin: http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1909/national-question/index.htm

If you are going to set up something in your school, set up a discussion group.

[PolishTrotsky]

.................................................. .................:cursing:
I do believe communism is illegal in Poland, yet I don't ive in Poland.
And Also, Look at Yugoslavia under Tito, especially under the Infrombiro period. Or the RSFSR during the Great Patriotic War. SEE?!

[Q]

Well it does with Trotskyism
Nope.


.................................................. .................:cursing:
I do believe communism is illegal in Poland, yet I don't ive in Poland.
And Also, Look at Yugoslavia under Tito, especially under the Infrombiro period. Or the RSFSR during the Great Patriotic War. SEE?!

See what? Would you say that Yugoslavia and the USSR were communist? If so, I'm afraid you really have no idea what you're talking about. Communism has nothing to do with a society of "wageslaves without capitalism" or somesuch. It is highly argueable that it was even in a transition to such a society (aka "socialism").

[Weezer]

.................................................. .................:cursing:
I do believe communism is illegal in Poland, yet I don't ive in Poland.
And Also, Look at Yugoslavia under Tito, especially under the Infrombiro period. Or the RSFSR during the Great Patriotic War. SEE?!

One of the most embarrassing mistakes of my internet career was me posting on forums during middle school without maturity.

Nationalism is not and cannot be compatible with Trotskyism.

Did you miss the whole thing on Permanent Revolution.

I believe you're looking for this ideology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

[Wanted Man]

@ Wanted Man, Deconditions Revleft +1, and Anarion:
I just want to point out 2 things: I'm not Red Polak, just want to say that, and How can you say you're Communist than say "Races should be pure and not interbred." Makes no since.

I know, I just wanted to thank you for triggering a pretty funny Revleft memory. :p

As for whether Trotskyism (or indeed many other left ideologies) and nationalism are compatible, you'd have to define both of them. With the definitions that are common, one would find a large amount of incompatibilities very quickly.


One of the most embarrassing mistakes of my internet career was me posting on forums during middle school without maturity.

You're only 14 anyway. Just relax.

[Leo]

Well it does with Trotskyism

Nope.

Aside from the fact that the concessions to the ideology of national-liberation opening the doors of Trotskyism to the many variants of nationalism in the third-world (I can give several striking historical examples from Vietnam, China, Sri Lanka, Argentina, Cuba etc. as well as many current examples of organizations both in the West and in the Third-World openly cooperating with, if not including nationalists); Trotskyist organizations historically did not hesitate to make concessions to variants of nationalism of the Western countries as well. Again there are many historical and current examples. In fact the English and Irish sections of your own international organization itself, which I believe are the central sections, have been involved in making concessions to the nationalist reactions to the Lisbon treaty, and not hesitating in forming a joint front organizations with the Liberal Party.

[Palingenisis]

Aside from the fact that the concessions to the ideology of national-liberation opening the doors of Trotskyism to the many variants of nationalism in the third-world

He also believes in racial purity which is a tad further than just national liberation....:rolleyes:

[dearest chuck]

polish trotskyism... from the people who brought you polish submarines...

[Aurora]

PolishTrotsky i dont believe your a nationalist, you seem just to support an independent poland, which all communists do, we want a voluntary socialist federation of europe but if poland chooses to not to join such an organisation so be it.

[Q]

Aside from the fact that the concessions to the ideology of national-liberation opening the doors of Trotskyism to the many variants of nationalism in the third-world (I can give several striking historical examples from Vietnam, China, Sri Lanka, Argentina, Cuba etc. as well as many current examples of organizations both in the West and in the Third-World openly cooperating with, if not including nationalists); Trotskyist organizations historically did not hesitate to make concessions to variants of nationalism of the Western countries as well. Again there are many historical and current examples. In fact the English and Irish sections of your own international organization itself, which I believe are the central sections, have been involved in making concessions to the nationalist reactions to the Lisbon treaty, and not hesitating in forming a joint front organizations with the Liberal Party.

Many statements, not so much to back it up. So yeah, bring it.

Also, could you move this discussion to this topic (http://www.revleft.com/vb/trotskyism-vs-left-t144873/index.html)? As it is becoming very off topic here.

[The Red Next Door]

Be non sectarian I advise...The only leftists who are COMPLETELEY WRONG are and should be ignored aer Maoists

How is your comment non sectarian? hey kid don't listen to him; You are really not going to get people not to join your group. if you listen to him.

[PolishTrotsky]

PolishTrotsky i dont believe your a nationalist, you seem just to support an independent poland, which all communists do, we want a voluntary socialist federation of europe but if poland chooses to not to join such an organisation so be it.
Yay, someone who isn't bashing me for a variant of Communism.

[Crux]

Yay, someone who isn't bashing me for a variant of Communism.
I think you have some studying to do, but I don't think you're a nationalist. You are arguing for a federation, no?

[PolishTrotsky]

I think you have some studying to do, but I don't think you're a nationalist. You are arguing for a federation, no?
I think everyone just has a negative connotation with 'Nationalism.' It just means you have pride in one's country.

[Widerstand]

I think everyone just has a negative connotation with 'Nationalism.' It just means you have pride in one's country.

It also means that you look down upon everyone not from your country.

[Q]

I think everyone just has a negative connotation with 'Nationalism.' It just means you have pride in one's country.
That is because it is synonymous for many here with one of the very basic "divide and rule" tricks of the ruling class that weakens our class and is such a fertile ground for reactionary ideas.

[Aurora]

I think everyone just has a negative connotation with 'Nationalism.' It just means you have pride in one's country.

There are very good reasons to consider nationalism negatively. There's absolutely no reason to have 'pride' in a country you had no choice in being born in and what does it mean to have 'pride' in Poland, do you like the landscape or do you support its state?
I would posit that nationalism came into existence with the nation-state and capitalism and is thoroughly capitalist in nature.

[pastradamus]

An interesting issue, Nationalism.

I would define Nationalism, myself, as "having the point of view that your country is superior to all other nations and that the people in your country are also superior to all others". Thats my own viewpoint.

Now on the otherhand, I believe SOME people on this site use the word nationalism very lightly and imply the above lightly in cases.

For example, if the Irish Football team are playing (myself being Irish) I will of course cheer them on because I want them to beat the opposition - this does not imply that I have capitalist sentiments or that I believe Irish people or their country are superior to all others. As well as this, I do like the place im from - it wasn't my birth choice, but I like it and I dont see that as conflicting with my Socialist and Marxist views.

[Impulse97]

thanks, xx1994xx. Why does everyone hate Leon Trotsky?


If I knew then I'd find a was to dispel that ignorance.

Not that other views are bad, just that it seems that quiet a few people have been ganging up on his ideas and those of his school of thought.:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

[Q]

If I knew then I'd find a was to dispel that ignorance.

Not that other views are bad, just that it seems that quiet a few people have been ganging up on his ideas and those of his school of thought.:hammersickle::trotski::hammersickle:

His school of thought? That's a little much I think. Trotsky's "school of thought" was Marxism and his contributions should be appreciated in that context.