DPRK internal politics discussion

[Rusty Shackleford]

Discuss your views about the DPRK to your hearts content here.

Talk about how its glorious, a deformed workers state, an anti-worker government, striving to maintain socialism or what have you.

[Spawn of Stalin]

It's a pretty glorious revisionist state, I'd love to go.

[Red Commissar]

Kim Jong-Il has a good theme song

Cfg3EgKaOgY

I am deeply concerned his son might not be able to reproduce one at that scale.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Agreed, No Motherland Without You is a classic, beats the shit out of the Internationale in my opinion.

[Cultural Revolution]

LOL isnt DPRK a hot topic at the moment.
Ok i will spell out my views on the DPRK, which are not the best informed.

Korea was subjagated and the people had enough and supported the communists and became communists, fighting to end colonialism and create a workers state.
Before this could happen, the USA and UK interviened and during the civil war, most of the norths infrastructure was destroyed.

The DPRK is militarised out of the need to defend from imperialism and the southern ROK regime, so they have the army first policy, but this is not wasted like most say, as the army spend most of their time farming or engaged in producing in some way or another.

Now, the DPRK is not communist, and i would hesitate to even say its remotely socialist, it might be collectivised, and have planned economy, however this does not mean its communist, state capitalist would apply better, as like cuba, it relies on the markets and is not self reliant...HOWEVER The DPRK was born with no infrastructure due to US bombing and shelling, yet it outpoduced the south until a while ago.

DPRK cannot ever become self reliant as it cannot produce the things its people need to survive, so it can never become socialist even if it wants to.

The leadership is corrupt and it passes on hereditary rule like a monarch, and as we all know, "the idea of a hereditary ruler is as absurd as a hereditary mathemetician"
So i support the DPRK against imperialism and support the workers and peasentry of Korea, and hope to see them reclaim their government and have an internal revolution and do away with this hereditary bullshit.

I also advocate for the workers to gain more workers control.

This all said, the DPRK, even if it got rid of kim etc, could not become socialist as it cannot become self sufficient, and cannot remove itself from the markets without millions then starving.

The only hope is Nepal and India have their revolutions, and they aid one another and build another socialist block.

[Sosa]

socialism /= self sufficiency

[Burn A Flag]

The cult of personality of so obviously and awfully huge, I am guessing it is somewhere along the lines of the USSR with the beauracratic class and class antagonsims which are downplayed. I do think that this is due to the failure of Korea to rebound after the Korean War and Japanese imperialism straight to a modern socialist economy. North Korea never had an industrial capitalist phase, like Russia and their failure to acheive Socialism.

[Spawn of Stalin]

socialism /= self sufficiencyYes, international trade is the only route to socialism. Long live the markets!

[The Vegan Marxist]

socialism /= self sufficiency

Not hardly. Nice try though.

[4 Leaf Clover]

DPRK is Socialist with some additions tho. Some market liberalisation happened , since socialist bloc dissapeared and DPRK lost its allies. Such liberations have the goal of preserving their own people's existence , their own working class.

3,2,1 , Shitstoooorm

[Tzonteyotl]

Regards the cult personality, why wouldn't they idolize him. I mean, isn't he like the best golfer ever AND an accomplished composer?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

They'd be much better off dropping Juche and going back to Marxism-Leninism but otherwise, yeah, I'd say it's the only proper workers' state left

[Cultural Revolution]

Kim is just so undeserving of the worship, I think alot of Koreans like him because of his dad.

At least Mao and Stalin were active revolutionaries, What Kim Jung Il done, except be a spoiled brat all his life?

[Tzonteyotl]

They'd be much better off dropping Juche and going back to Marxism-Leninism but otherwise, yeah, I'd say it's the only proper workers' state left

Link to information for basis of this claim? How are they a "proper workers' state?"

[Tankred]

North Korea could have been a proper worker's state. Now its just a cult of personality fustercluck that masquerades as the state it could have been.

[The Vegan Marxist]

North Korea could have been a proper worker's state. Now its just a cult of personality fustercluck that masquerades as the state it could have been.

:confused:

Did anything you just rant about show any evidence that the DPRK is not Socialist? All you stated was that it had a bad cult of personality and holds onto a State that isn't what it hoped for. Yet, I see no reason to use these internal problems as a means of showing any lack of socialism.

[Burn A Flag]

I'd like to see evidence that it is socialist, because I have a hard time believing it is without some proof.

[StalinFanboy]

It's a capitalist state where bureaucrats have replaced the role of the bourgeoisie. Workers are not in power. It is also imperialist like all countries are.


:]

[Cultural Revolution]

how are all nations imperialist, if they are a social constuct, and even if they were not, how is afghanistan imperialist?

[fa2991]

Progressive. Revisionist. Not socialist, but better than South Korea. :tt2:

[Sosa]

Not hardly. Nice try though.

Maybe you misunderstood. Socialism does not mean it has to be self-sufficient.

[fa2991]

I'm pretty sure Sosa meant "socialism =/= self-sufficiency", or however it's written, suggesting how dubious such a claim is.

[StalinFanboy]

how are all nations imperialist, if they are a social constuct, and even if they were not, how is afghanistan imperialist?

All countries are imperialist because it is only through imperialism that any modern state can survive. It is not possible for a country to exist outside of capitalism and because of this, they must rely on militaristic expansion or defense of territories that are not proletarian in nature. This will always mean that proletarians will be killed by other proletarians for the sake of their ruling class' interests.

Just because a country is less powerful than, say, the US, doesn't make it non-imperialist.

[Cultural Revolution]

i see, i thought you mean occupational imperialism such as colonialism, not economically imperialist.

and no, maoist china and lenins ussr was not imperialist.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Prove that the DPRK is imperialist then.


Or, Haiti,

or, Palestine,

or, Tunisia?

do it. i dare you to prove that these countries are imperialist.


extra credit for Laos and Azerbaijan.

[StalinFanboy]

Prove that the DPRK is imperialist then.


Or, Haiti,

or, Palestine,

or, Tunisia?

do it. i dare you to prove that these countries are imperialist.


extra credit for Laos and Azerbaijan.
I already did. Unless you believe that the capitalist market is not worldwide and that it's possible for countries to exist outside of capitalism.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Blanket statements dont prove anything.

costa rica is a country that is capitalist yet has not military.

[Cultural Revolution]

but the government of Haiti does not economically dominate other nations by wiping out of blocking competition, so how is it imperialist?

if anything its a imperialists neo colony

[fa2991]

I already did. Unless you believe that the capitalist market is not worldwide and that it's possible for countries to exist outside of capitalism.

And I suppose there is no working class, either, since we all live within bourgeois societies, therefore we MUST all be bourgeoisie. Or if I go to Mexico and drink a glass of water I must be a Mexican since a Mexican product sustained me. Etc. :rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

there are two general camps.

those who dominate and those who are dominated.

israel dominates and palestine is dominated. israel is a colonial state and palestine is the territory for which the israeli colony expands into. in no way is palestine imperialist.

[StalinFanboy]

"As in the Mafia, only the Godfather can dominate the entire town, while the neighbourhood pimps can dominate only a single street, but nothing distinguishes them at the level of the aspirations and methods of gangsters. Thus the smallest states devote as much energy as the others to becoming a greater nation at the expense of their neighbours."

[Rusty Shackleford]

then what about UNASUR and ALBA? Is Venezuela trying to become economically independent, and implement pro-worker and pro-latin american policies at the expense of Bolivia or Cuba?

[StalinFanboy]

And I suppose there is no working class, either, since we all live within bourgeois societies, therefore we MUST all be bourgeoisie. Or if I go to Mexico and drink a glass of water I must be a Mexican since a Mexican product sustained me. Etc. :rolleyes:
Don't be ridiculous. We are talking about countries, which are inherently bourgeois constructs.

Unless you think the modern state developed in a vacuum outside the development of capital...

[StalinFanboy]

then what about UNASUR and ALBA? Is Venezuela trying to become economically independent, and implement pro-worker and pro-latin american policies at the expense of Bolivia or Cuba?
Venezuela cannot implement "pro-worker" policies and at the same time participate in the capitalist market.

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

:confused:

Did anything you just rant about show any evidence that the DPRK is not Socialist?



All you stated was that it had a bad cult of personality and holds onto a State that isn't what it hoped for.

I think the whole active cult of personality thing is pretty good evidence. Socialism is more than just a centralized economy.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think the whole active cult of personality thing is pretty good evidence. Socialism is more than just a centralized economy.

Socialism is a centralized, collectivized economy where the means of production is, of the majority, controlled by the working class people. Cult of personality have nothing to do with what you state, whatsoever.

[Tzonteyotl]

Socialism is a centralized, collectivized economy where the means of production is, of the majority, controlled by the working class people. Cult of personality have nothing to do with what you state, whatsoever.

Granted, it has nothing to do with socialism. But can socialism and democratic workers' control truly exist in such a situation? If we accept the argument others have made that famine did not occur, or that it was the result of a combination of things like the Soviet collapse and the imposition of sanctions, what about the way Kim Jong-Il lives versus the life of a regular North Korean citizen? As I said in the other thread, I'm sure there are exaggerations. But surely there is a factual basis for some of the claims about forced labor camps, Kim Jong-Il's appetite for the fancier things in life (cognac, huge movie collection, limos, etc.), defections, and so on. And if that's the case, throw in the personality cult, and it seems a rather unlikely environment for socialism to blossom under.

[KC]

Disappointing.

Let me know when this thread turns into an all-out flamewar, hopefully I can get some troll posts in before it's locked/trashed.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Granted, it has nothing to do with socialism. But can socialism and democratic workers' control truly exist in such a situation? If we accept the argument others have made that famine did not occur, or that it was the result of a combination of things like the Soviet collapse and the imposition of sanctions, what about the way Kim Jong-Il lives versus the life of a regular North Korean citizen? As I said in the other thread, I'm sure there are exaggerations. But surely there is a factual basis for some of the claims about forced labor camps, Kim Jong-Il's appetite for the fancier things in life (cognac, huge movie collection, limos, etc.), defections, and so on. And if that's the case, throw in the personality cult, and it seems a rather unlikely environment for socialism to blossom under.

Well, certainly one would come to a conclusion that, as being leader to a small country surrounded by capitalist countries, he's able to attain better wages than that of industrial workers or agrarian workers. Not saying that it should be massively larger, but each amount of wage should be determined, not just also based on the commodity itself, but also on at what level does one's labor force contribute to society. And so, as being leader to such a country, at such a position, I wouldn't be surprised that he has greater wages than others. Of course, is there any info stating that Kim Jong-Il is the only person able to play golf? I've never heard of any of this. Also, when it comes to movies, I've never heard of Kim riding in a limo. Even if so, are limo's at the same price-range or level of value as that of limo's present in the US or other first world countries?

[KC]

Of course, is there any info stating that Kim Jong-Il is the only person able to play golf?

He is Hennessey's biggest customer, spending an average of $700,000 a year on the stuff.

[Rusty Shackleford]

He is Hennessey's biggest customer, spending an average of $700,000 a year on the stuff.
wasnt that from some placard made by some right-wing group?

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Socialism is a centralized, collectivized economy where the means of production is, of the majority, controlled by the working class people.
Not necessarily. You are aware there are some branches of socialism that advocate decentralization? Oh wait, I'm sure you do; You just don't acknowledge it :thumbdown:

Kim Jong-Il is a spoiled Brat. DPRK isn't socialism, and I really hope TVM moves there.
We have these threads every other day. Can't we just sticky the best one?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Not necessarily. You are aware there are some branches of socialism that advocate decentralization? Oh wait, I'm sure you do; You just don't acknowledge it :thumbdown:

Kim Jong-Il is a spoiled Brat. DPRK isn't socialism, and I really hope TVM moves there.
We have these threads every other day. Can't we just sticky the best one?

I go based on Socialism as advocated by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. And that is a centralized, collectivized economy. Not some dreamworld where anarchists fap to.

[The Vegan Marxist]

He is Hennessey's biggest customer, spending an average of $700,000 a year on the stuff.

Link, please?

[KC]

Google it lazyass

[Bright Banana Beard]

He probably got it from sensationalism journal: http://factoidz.com/facts-and-notsofacts-about-north-korean-dictator-kim-jong-il/

[Tzonteyotl]

Link, please?

This is as close as I got to the source of that claim:


The case against selling weapons and nuclear know-how to a bellicose government argues itself. Restricting designer duds, Chanel No. 5 and rare stamps involves subtler reasoning, said Jerrold M. Post, psychiatrist and director of the political psychology program at George Washington University. Post's book "Leaders and Their Followers in a Dangerous World" profiles Kim's eclectic tastes and includes a sales figure from Hennessy that puts Kim's annual cognac budget at up to $800,000 a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/29/AR2006112900388.html

Where this Post fellow got those numbers, I don't know.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Google it lazyass

It's nothing about being lazy, dick! It's about you making accusations, yet show no courtesy into proving such with the simple acts of linking your claims. If you can't handle that, then you don't belong in a political forum obviously.

[Tzonteyotl]

He probably got it from sensationalism journal: http://factoidz.com/facts-and-notsofacts-about-north-korean-dictator-kim-jong-il/

That's fucking hilarious. After every claim it says in bold "this is an actual FACT." Not that I support DPRK as I'm sure people gathered, but this is just stupid. Like the "fact" page of The Da Vinci Code haha.

[KC]

It's nothing about being lazy, dick! It's about you making accusations, yet show no courtesy into proving such with the simple acts of linking your claims. If you can't handle that, then you don't belong in a political forum obviously.You link to the fucking Marxist Leninist. You're a troll. Anything that goes against your view you completely dismiss. Remember when you openly admitted you had absolutely no substantiation for your claims regarding North Korea? Yet here you are again. What's the point in presenting a source to you? You believe something you have no basis for believing. You are, by definition, delusional. There's no speaking reason with someone like you.

I don't even know why you post on this forum, since you can't even defend your own fucking beliefs.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You link to the fucking Marxist Leninist. You're a troll. Anything that goes against your view you completely dismiss. Remember when you openly admitted you had absolutely no substantiation for your claims regarding North Korea? Yet here you are again. What's the point in presenting a source to you? You believe something you have no basis for believing. You are, by definition, delusional. There's no speaking reason with someone like you.

I don't even know why you post on this forum, since you can't even defend your own fucking beliefs.

Don't even straw man this you fucking dick. I've only resulted to linking to the Marxist Leninist because it had articles relevant towards the discussions held. Also, you showed absolutely no evidence to the contrary on North Korea either. What I presented was that there were many others who were actually there, & stated what we all stated. Thus, our views outweighed yours. So stop being a little punk-ass ***** & troll somewhere else.

[KC]

Don't even straw man this you fucking dick. I've only resulted to linking to the Marxist Leninist because it had articles relevant towards the discussions held. Also, you showed absolutely no evidence to the contrary on North Korea either. What I presented was that there were many others who were actually there, & stated what we all stated. Thus, our views outweighed yours. So stop being a little punk-ass ***** & troll somewhere else.

No evidence to the contrary of what? That your downplaying of the luxurious lifestyle of the North Korean bureaucracy is wrong? That's obvious to anyone that isn't completely off their rocker. To you it's all bourgeois lies, and thus can't be counted as "evidence to the contrary".

And we both know you linked to the ML because you read it regularly because you're ideologically aligned with those nutjobs. I don't see you linking to an AP or WaPo piece then saying "oh I just did that because it's relevant to the discussion".

And can the "they were there and more of them agree with us" crap. For every one single citation you can make that supports your claim I could cite 100 bourgeois articles that state the opposite. Appealing to popularity is supremely idiotic in your case, and it's truly astounding that you think it's actually beneficial to your insane position.

[The Vegan Marxist]

^You're such a god damn troll, it's not even funny. I refuse into furthering this bullshit any longer. Have fun KC in being nothing but an absolute dick.

Oh, & btw, nice dodging by refusing to link us to your bullshit claims.

[4 Leaf Clover]

It's a capitalist state where bureaucrats have replaced the role of the bourgeoisie. Workers are not in power. It is also imperialist like all countries are.


:]

Imperialist towards what nation


I'd like to see evidence that it is socialist, because I have a hard time believing it is without some proof.

Economy is centrally planed , workers enjoy central democracy on their workplace , everyone has a full right for employment , free complete education , health care , DPRK citizens don't pay any taxes , agriculture is collectivized

[RedSonRising]

Can someone post some sort of journalistic evidence that isn't from an overly biased/centralized news source? The Cuban model has a lot more study done on it and it is not hard to find various sources examining the functioning of their state. North Korea, however, for some reason does not have so much readily available. I either hear what are said to be firsthand accounts of escapees talking about labor camps, rice famines, and gross bureaucratic indulgence, or some M-L website listing the names of a bunch of unions that are supposedly incorporated into the State's decision-making process.

Can someone just please post an interview, human rights report, or any other documentary evidence for either argument? We can bicker about the potential biases afterwords. All I know is there are a lot of opinionated claims being made with little to substantiate them. I'd appreciate if an empirical approach was at least attempted, since that's what the thread seems to be aiming for.

[KC]

The only real source of information regarding life in North Korea is from reports by North Korean refugees. All foreign visits to the country, including Japanese tourists and South Koreans for family unification, are strictly controlled, and thus don't constitute a reliable source of what life is like in the country. Refugees are obviously also going to be biased in their position.

The entire point is that all of these sources are anecdotal and subject to the biases and subjectivities of those reporters. This, combined with the strictly controlled nature of visits to the country, makes it incredibly difficult to formulate a coherent picture.

This also paves the way for rampant speculation, as is evidenced by TVM's position for example, who chooses to pick and choose which sources agree with his position and to dismiss those that don't. The popular opinion does this in exactly the same manner, but from the opposite perspective.

If you want reports on human rights in the country, just check out Amnesty International. Butmrember that the reports are filtered through both biased refugees and an organization that is reportedly anti-DPRK.

[TwoSevensClash]

Prove that the DPRK is imperialist then.


Or, Haiti,

or, Palestine,

or, Tunisia?

do it. i dare you to prove that these countries are imperialist.


extra credit for Laos and Azerbaijan.

Azerbaijan had troops in Iraq and has troops in Afghanistan:laugh:

[robbo203]

People who talk of North Korea being "socialist" or semi socialist dont seem to have much of a clue about what socialism is, frankly. North Korea, like every other state on the face of the planet, is a capitalist state. Generalised wage labour predominates and this is the tell tale sign of capitalist relations of production.

Socialism as least in the classical Marxian tradition is a synonym for communism. It implies the absence of generalised wage labour, commodity production, market prices and economic classes. From that point of view North Korea is about as "socialist" as Upper Volta or Honduras or the United States. In other words not at all

[StalinFanboy]

I go based on Socialism as advocated by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. And that is a centralized, collectivized economy. Not some dreamworld where anarchists fap to.
That dream world that "anarchists fap to" is called communism, bro. Look it up sometime. Marx had some cool shit to say about it.

[4 Leaf Clover]

dont take amnesti international. Their understanding of "freedom" is 100% libertarian

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I go based on Socialism as advocated by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. And that is a centralized, collectivized economy. Not some dreamworld where anarchists fap to.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean you should ignore it's existence, considering it's a popular theory too. I'll refrain from smashing your last moronic statement, because I don't want to stoop to your trollish level. ;)

[Burn A Flag]

A bit of a necro, but I've been gone several days.

1. How is living in North Korea Better than South Korea? (North Korea's standard of living is terrible) Personally I see where you're coming from with the pro DPRK comments, but if it's really just the state bourgeois instead of the traditional bourgeois why support it? Also just for kicks name some progressive policies the DPRK has implemented.

2. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the fact that the DPRK has had hereditary leadership transfer makes me feel it's not one bit progressive. Any answers to that?

[bailey_187]

A bit of a necro, but I've been gone several days.

1. How is living in North Korea Better than South Korea? (North Korea's standard of living is terrible) Personally I see where you're coming from with the pro DPRK comments, but if it's really just the state bourgeois instead of the traditional bourgeois why support it? Also just for kicks name some progressive policies the DPRK has implemented.

2. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the fact that the DPRK has had hereditary leadership transfer makes me feel it's not one bit progressive. Any answers to that?

Well progressive policies would include AFAIK, social housing, health and education and economic planning (to a lesser degree now)

But yeah, the first part of question 1, if itmeans such a low standard of living compared to the South, be that due to the vague sanction we hear of, the official comitment to "self-reliance" (these two points not being compatible, but no pro-DPRKer will explain this) or "bureacratic ineffeciency" and whatever the Trots etc say, i have to (and it upsets me to do so) say whats the point?

However thats not say that the fall of the DPRK would lead it to have a living standard on par with the South, it would certainly fall further than it is already.


I really dont know what the best future of the DPRK is.

[Palingenisis]

Life is a nightmare.....I wish I was good at languages. The DPRK dont know how lucky they are.

[KC]

However thats not say that the fall of the DPRK would lead it to have a living standard on par with the South, it would certainly fall further than it is already.

That really depends on the conditions of the transition.