Breaking: North and South Korea exchanging artillery fire

[The Vegan Marxist]

So far, all Western and South Korean news reports are stating that the DPRK had fired first, hitting a South Korean island. No word as of yet from the North about what’s going on. So it’s best to stay opened minded about this until both words of the current, ongoing events are spoken.

Tue Nov 23, 2010

(Reuters) – North Korea on Tuesday fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island, setting buildings on fire and prompting a return fire by the South, Seoul’s military and media reports said.

Seoul’s YTN television quoted a witness as saying 60 to 70 houses were on fire after the shelling.

The military confirmed the exchange of firing, without providing more details.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM0TZ20101123

[¿Que?]

This is truly a depressing moment. I hope Clinton has the capacity to defuse this, or else we're all boned.

[blake 3:17]

Serious craziness. Yikes! Is the area that was fired ona disputed territory?

I'll try to find out what my friends in Seoul have to say about this.

[Manic Impressive]

They do fire at each other now and then it might be nothing.

Edit: my mate in Seoul just said "it's all bull shit nothing to worry about"

[The Vegan Marxist]

According to this report below, while these exchanging of fire between both North & South Korea, US convoys were already on their way, according to them because of the recent revelations of the DPRK accumulating uranium for their Nuclear enrichment site.

Coincidence?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM0YS20101123

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Images/2010/11/23/2010112364442705621_20.jpg


And heres what the SK govt has in response. What a great way to ease tensions by saying "you cant have nukes but we can have them"
Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/22/c_13617266.htm)

SEOUL, Nov. 22 (Xinhua) -- South Korea might consider redeploying U.S. tactical weapons here as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) reportedly seeks a uranium enrichment program, Seoul's defense chief said Monday.
"(The government) will consider what you've just said" in consultation with Washington, defense minister Kim Tae-young was quoted as saying by local media when asked by a lawmaker whether Seoul would consider bringing back U.S. nuclear weapons on its soil.
Kim said Seoul and Washington could discuss the issue in their Extended Deterrence Policy Committee meeting next month. The joint military committee by the two allies is aimed at bolstering security deterrence against Pyongyang.
The remarks came amid new concerns here over potential nuclear threats as Pyongyang reportedly showed a U.S. nuclear scientist a new and sophisticated facility to enrich uranium with centrifuges installed.
A U.S. envoy on the DPRK visited Seoul earlier in the day to discuss the issue with South Korean Foreign Minister Kim Sung-hwan and Seoul's representative on stalled nuclear disarmament talks.
The U.S., which has stationed some 28,500 troops here since the 1950-53 Korean War ended with a truce, withdrew its tactical nuclear weapons in 1991 for nuclear arms reduction.
Washington has since repeatedly recommitted itself to defending South Korea, including keeping the country under the U.S. nuclear umbrella.

[cb9's_unity]

What exactly is the time-line on this thing? I'm trying to figure it out and having limited success.

[Rusty Shackleford]

DPRK announces enrichment around the same time of latest military drills in south.

south declares its possible willingness to redeploy us nukes

artillery fire on border....


i think thats whats going on. i know the souths nuclear weapons thing was in the news before the artillery exchange.

[The Vegan Marxist]

South Korean govt. is now stating that they were not considering redeploying US nuclear arsenals towards the DPRK. Though, not sure how great of a word we can trust from them:

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/23/28/0301000000AEN20101123005600315F.HTML

[Rusty Shackleford]

Reminds me of the Swedish government retracting the warrant for Assanges arrest. and then weeks later, theres now an INTERPOL warrant for him...


anyways. interesting market news (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE6AM03B20101123).



SEOUL, Nov 23 (Reuters) - Seoul shares fell on Tuesday, as news crossed the wire during the final few minutes of trade that North Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/north-korea) had fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island.
Even before that, the index had turned lower as investors sought to reduce risk in their portfolios amid growing European debt worries.
The Korea Composite Stock Price Index .KS11 (http://www.reuters.com/finance/markets/index?symbol=kr%21kspi) (KOSPI) ended down 0.79 percent at 1,928.94 points.
"This is not good. The aggression was on a residential area, occupied by civilians," said Han Beom-ho, a market analyst at Shinhan Investment Corp.
North Korea on Tuesday fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/south-korea)n island, setting buildings on fire and prompting return fire by the South, Seoul's military and media reports said. [ID:nL3E6MN09Z]
"The market will start off badly tomorrow for sure...South Korea's geopolitical risks are again heightened," Han added.
While the shelling dampened overall market sentiment, some defence shares rose, with military equipment producer Victek (065450.KQ (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=065450.KQ)) jumping 4.7 percent.
surprise surprise, weapons manufacturers just made a quick buck.

[Wanted Man]

It's not the first time that there are exchanges of fire across the border. A news site here claimed that it was a possible reaction to SK-US military exercises, which could very well be possible. This in combination with the constant paranoia on both sides of the line. Also, could it be a kind of show of NK's conventional capabilities? I.e. their ability to massively shell southern cities, including Seoul?

[Rusty Shackleford]

question.

when was the last time any structures on either side were hit in an exchange of fire?

[The Vegan Marxist]

question.

when was the last time any structures on either side were hit in an exchange of fire?

Not to mention the deaths of military personnel (right now, just SKorean military personnel).

[Rusty Shackleford]

Lookie here. (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6AM0BX20101123)

German and US futures are better immediately after this.

LONDON, Nov 23 (Reuters) - German Bund futures rose on Tuesday, matching a sharp rally in U.S. Treasuries after reports of North Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/north-korea)n artillery fire at a South Korean island pushed investors towards safe-haven government bonds. At 0740 GMT, the Bund future FGBLc1 was 38 ticks higher at 128.32. U.S. Treasuries climbed around 20/32 to a peak of 125-55/64 following reports that North Korea had fired artillery shells at a South Korean island. [ID:nL3E6MN095]
"It's given us a bit of a spurt in line with Treasuries," said a trader.
The two-year Schatz yield DE2YT=TWEB dropped below 1 percent for the first time since Nov. 12 and was last 3.8 basis points lower at 0.996 percent. The 10-year German bond yield DE10YT=TWEB was 2.612 percent, down 3.6 basis points.
In the euro zone, focus remains firmly on Ireland and the successful passage of its austerity budget, with political opposition threatening to keep markets on edge despite Dublin's application for aid from the European Union and International Monetary Fund.
"There's obviously decent conditions attached to any aid package and even vague doubts about getting the budget through are not going to be taken well, so it's not going to help the tone in the periphery at all," the trader added.
Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen defied mounting pressure to quit on Monday, saying he would stay in office until parliament passed the budget, then call an early election.[ID:nLDE6AL2AG]
The sale of up to 4 billion euros of Spanish T-Bills later in the session should gve some indication of how peripheral issuance is likely to fare while Irish tensions persist, with yields expected to rise.
"Normally two Spanish letras auctions would not be in focus, and to be honest we do not expect them to be significantly troubled, but they will probably be well watched by the broader financial markets given the fraught environment," said Credit Agricole analysts in a note.
Flash purchasing managers' index data for November was also due to be released, with investors looking for any sign of weakness in the strong German economy that has underpinned the euro zone economic recovery.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's a video showing images of the impact of the shells on Yeonpyeong island:

482j-MPjslA

[~Spectre]

If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.

[The Vegan Marxist]

If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.

:rolleyes:

[~Spectre]

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry, I don't see a rebuttal in the above quote.

[cb9's_unity]

If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.

As much as I hate the north korean leadership, this only happened a few hours ago. There may be pieces left to fill in and this is certainly not the thread to start another debate over the DPRK.

[Manic Impressive]

It's nothing all that unusual

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/asia/24korea.html?_r=1

November 09, 2009- A North Korean naval vessel entered South Korean waters, refused to return to the North, and then was brought under fire by the South Korean navy. The North Korean ship was partially destroyed, and managed to escape back across the Naval Limit Line, which is the sea-border between the Koreas. Perhaps not coincidentally, the Northern incursion came only days before U.S. President Barack Obama was due to visit East Asia.

July 29, 2009- North Korean naval forces seized a South Korean fishing vessel early on the morning of July 29, 2009, after it accidentally strayed into North Korean waters. The South Korean government asked the Pyongyang regime to release the fishing boat and to return the four crewmen. The captured ship is 29 tons and is called the "800 Yeonan." The South claims the ship strayed into North Korean waters due to a satellite navigation system error or malfunction.

June 28, 2002-North and South Korean naval vessels fought a twenty-minute gun battle in which 4 South Korean sailors died and 18 wounded near Yeonpyeong island in the Yellow Sea. A South Korean frigate was sunk and a North Korean vessel sustained damage.

Dec. 21 and 22, 2001-The Japanese Coast Guard chased a suspected spy ship and sank it. Crew members of the spy ship fired on the Japanese ships, wounding two Coast Guard sailors. Spy ship crew all believed dead. Japan suspects the ship was North Korean.

The first cross-border shooting of 2001 between North and South Korea. North Korean troops fired several shots at a South Korean guard post. Fire was returned by the South Koreans.

(June 1999) --Six North Korean patrol boats repeatedly cross the Yellow Sea maritime border over the course of nine days, prompting an exchange of fire between the North and South Koreans. South Korea says 20 to 30 North Korean sailors are killed, while seven South Korean sailors were wounded.

[The Vegan Marxist]

This is interesting:

"A Ministry of Defense spokesman contradicted the Yonhap report, saying that no deaths had been confirmed and that the military was checking on possible civilian casualties." (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/23/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html)

[Wanted Man]

I'm sorry, I don't see a rebuttal in the above quote.

What is there to rebut? Ever heard of the burden of proof? It's like saying, "Please prove to me that you're not an idiot."

[~Spectre]

What is there to rebut?

Claim: North Korea shot artillery at South Korea.

me: If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.


The reasons why are fairly obvious. If you need help identifying them, just say so.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Claim: North Korea shot artillery at South Korea.

me: If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.


The reasons why are fairly obvious. If you need help identifying them, just say so.

Why exactly would this be an act of "anti-working class"? South Korea & the US went against the wishes of peace by the DPRK by continuing war-drills. Not to mention yesterday word was given that the South was all for US nuclear arsenals to strike the DPRK.

What exactly should the DPRK have done? Just continue to sit there with thumbs up their asses, waiting for the South to do something first?

[cb9's_unity]

This is interesting:

"A Ministry of Defense spokesman contradicted the Yonhap report, saying that no deaths had been confirmed and that the military was checking on possible civilian casualties." (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/23/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html)


Yonhap television was covering the attack nonstop in South Korea, forgoing other news Tuesday. Meanwhile, state television in North Korea did not mention the attack.

This shows that we have no idea how either side is going to spin this. The South Korean government still doesn't totally have its shit together about this issue and North Korea, to my knowledge, still hasn't made a public announcement about the attack.

It will be morbidly fascinating to watch the whole western media wake up to this.

[~Spectre]

Why exactly would this be an act of "anti-working class"?

Who exactly do you think dies in the hostile exchanges between states?




South Korea & the US went against the wishes of peace by the DPRK by continuing war-drills.Is an artillery attack more likely, or less likely to produce peace?



Not to mention yesterday word was given that the South was all for US nuclear arsenals to strike the DPRK. Is an artillery attack more likely, or less likely to push South Korea towards housing U.S. nukes?



What exactly should the DPRK have done? Just continue to sit there with thumbs up their asses, waiting for the South to do something first?Is an artillery attack more likely, or less likely to hasten a U.S. backed attack (that you seem to think is imminent)?


To be honest, if you change a few names, you'd sound like a typical neo-con. Korean workers have no business dying over the bullshit games of geopolitics that are played by the relevant states.

[Rusty Shackleford]

jesus christ spectre give it a rest. can someone split the thread and keep this a news and news discussion thread only?

[Chimurenga.]

This shows that we have no idea how either side is going to spin this. The South Korean government still doesn't totally have its shit together about this issue and North Korea, to my knowledge, still hasn't made a public announcement about the attack.

It will be morbidly fascinating to watch the whole western media wake up to this.

I think it will play out exactly like the Cheonan incident where you had actual high ranking members bringing truth about the situation (for example, the director of South Korea’s National Intelligence, Won See-hoon, admitted that there was no connection between the DPRK and Cheonan's sinking) from South Korea. Meanwhile, hysteria and sensationalism in the Western press.

I can't speak on how the news will be handled in the DPRK as KCNA hasn't been updated in a couple of days for some reason.

[Chimurenga.]

Also, CNN just edited that link and removed any comment regarding any other view relating to a death toll.

I wish I saved a screen shot of that link.

[cb9's_unity]

Claim: North Korea shot artillery at South Korea.

me: If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.


The reasons why are fairly obvious. If you need help identifying them, just say so.

Considering the relatively small military response by South Korea it would seem to indicate that the DPRK actually has a fairly good understanding of the South Korean government (if what has happened has actually happened the way the western media is reporting it). North Korea did literally just enough to show the west it was serious without causing immediate full scale war. They are far from being "absolutely fucking insane".

But of course this is all complete speculation. Because again, this only happened a few hours ago and we have no fucking clue about what exactly happened and what the official justifications will be. It is far to early to be using any of this as a reflection on either state.

[~Spectre]

Considering the relatively small military response by South Korea it would seem to indicate that the DPRK actually has a fairly good understanding of the South Korean government. North Korea did literally just enough to show the west it was serious without causing immediate full scale war. They are far from being "absolutely fucking insane".


These types of attacks are political gifts to war hawks.

Still, let's for the sake of argument accept that they made a perfectly calculated political move, and that they can launch these small artillery blasts without retaliation. Then that defeats any justification they may have had. No imminent threat, and certainly not the United States, is contained by some artillery shells on an island. If there was an imminent threat to North Korea, this attack fuels it.


But of course this is all complete speculation. Because again, this only happened a few hours ago and we have no fucking clue about what exactly happened and what the official justifications will be.

Which is why I prefaced it with "if true". As for official justifcations, who gives a shit what the official lies of the North Korean state is, or those of any state for that matter? One can form opinions without waiting for the happyspin.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Also, CNN just edited that link and removed any comment regarding any other view relating to a death toll.

I wish I saved a screen shot of that link.

http://forum.ebaumnation.com/showthread.php?56013-Breaking-Koreas-exchanged-artillery-fire

[Rusty Shackleford]

New US statement.


The White House has issued a statement describing North Korea's action as "belligerent" and reinforcing US support for South Korea:
The United States strongly condemns this attack and calls on North Korea to halt its belligerent action and to fully abide by the terms of the Armistice Agreement.
The United States is firmly committed to the defense of our ally, the Republic of Korea, and to the maintenance of regional peace and stability.

[cb9's_unity]

At spectre-

I am not at all interested in defending North Korea right now. If my last post gave you a different impression then I apologize.

My point is that there are many different angles and arguments that can be created right now. However these arguments only exist because of the current lack of information we have. We think that South Korea was legitimately considering bringing in more US missiles. We think U.S convoy's may have already been on their way before the attacks even started. We don't know the full extent of the damage of the attack. We can do a lot of thinking, but with very little knowing there isn't much of a point.

Any speculation we do now is subject to be totally destroyed by new factual information that could come out in a few hours. There is no point in deeply debating something if it stands the real chance of becoming immediately useless.

Finally, when it comes to conflict between the DPRK and the west there is no clear cut side that is totally correct. In fact I believe they are both deeply flawed. Thus any discussion of them needs to be both complex and substantial. Unfortunately while the issues that precluded these attacks were certainly complex, the information we have is far from substantial.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

According to the BBC on tv about an hour ago NK is claiming it was attacked first.

[revolution inaction]

Sky news says 2 SK marines where killed

[~Spectre]

Sky news says 2 SK marines where killed

That's what the NY Times is going with as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24korea.html?pagewanted=1&src=mv

[Antifa94]

This actually is unique, When was the last time the DPRK actually bombarded civilian areas? in all previous skirmishes they were naval and military, this is actually quite fucking bad...

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I think I'll get some popcorn.

[~Spectre]

From the times link:


The official North Korean news agency said in a brief statement Tuesday night that the South had started the fight when it “recklessly fired into our sea area.”
The South Korean deputy minister of defense, Lee Yong-geul, acknowledged that artillery units had been firing test shots on Tuesday afternoon close to the North Korean coast, from a battery on the South Korean island of Paeknyeongdo. But he denied Pyongyang’s charge that the shots had crossed the sea border.While skirmishes between the two countries have not been uncommon in recent years, the clash appeared to have been the most serious in decades and came amid heightened tensions over the North’s nuclear program.

[Xuix]

given North korea's track record...is it so wrong to say that it's most likely that the NK is probably the ones provoking the hostilities the most?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

This may not be true. I hope not.

if it is then god i may not be ready for all this

[~Spectre]

given North korea's track record...is it so wrong to say that it's most likely that the NK is probably the ones provoking the hostilities the most?

If the times is quoting NK's state propaganda accurately, then you'd be correct. NK is essentially admitting to killing people and potentially sparking a major conflict, because South Korea fired too close to the water that the North Korean state thinks it owns.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

As much as I disagree with what North Korea has done, the RoK hasn't exactly been letting up on the stick poking either. Joint US war-games, talks to allow US Nukes on its soil, various fuckups around the Cheonan sinking. You can only annoy a dog so much before it bites your hand off.

[penguinfoot]

If this is true, it's even more proof that the North Korean leadership is absolutely fucking insane and anti-working class.

This is the mirror image of the kind of ignorant nonsense you would expect from Stalinists. Firstly, it shouldn't take a fairly minor spat between two countries in which one of them may have played the role of the aggressor to tell you that the government of a society is anti-working-class, you should be able to grasp that from the fact that the North Korean bureaucracy exercises control over the means of production and extracts surplus value from the working class in order to support its own material privileges, these being the features that make it a ruling class, as well as the fact that the bureaucracy has, over the past two decades, been following the example of the reform process in China by enhancing the role of market forces in the North Korean economy, through the establishment of SEZs and other such concessions, with the result being that those elements of the North Korean social system that are of benefit to the working class have come under attack, such as the health and education systems, which have enabled North Korea to maintain high levels of life expectancy and literacy respectively despite the gross economic mismanagement of the government and the tactics deployed against the North by countries such as the US.

Secondly, and more importantly, there's nothing about this incident or any other part of the modern history of Korea that suggests that the North Korean leadership is "insane" or that their individual psychologies are the most important factor in explaining their foreign policy decision-making. In any context it's absurdly anti-Marxist to assume that you can understand the policy of a government solely with reference to the subjective impulses or mental defects of an individual or small group of leaders, but in this instance it's particularly stupid, because, far from being insane, the leaders of the bureaucracy in North Korea are very sensible and effective at conserving their own class interests, because the creation of spats such as this one are an effective way for Kim Jong-un, as a newly ascendant leader, to prove his capabilities to other factions and interest groups within the leadership, and they also give the bureaucracy as a whole a means of hiding their own class interests and the class structure of North Korean society behind a facade of national unity in the face of alleged provocations and external threats. Saying that they are "insane" is an argument that is deeply steeped in orientalist assumptions, because it counterposes an irrational and unpredictable "oriental" state to a supposedly careful and rational "western" bloc.

[penguinfoot]

This may not be true. I hope not.

if it is then god i may not be ready for all this

Put the canned food back in the cupboard...the only thing that's really significant about these events is that they serve as evidence of how a 24-hour news cycle leads to relatively minor incidents being blown out of proportion in order to produce a reality that is worth covering.

[~Spectre]

This is the mirror image of the kind of ignorant nonsense you would expect from Stalinists. Firstly, it shouldn't take a fairly minor spat between two countries in which one of them may have played the role of the aggressor to tell you that the government of a society is anti-working-class.

It doesn't, and I've never claimed that it does. I don't know if English is your first language, but "even more proof", signifies that this is not what it "takes...to tell" me.







Secondly, and more importantly, there's nothing about this incident or any other part of the modern history of Korea that suggests that the North Korean leadership is "insane"Your attempting to take a colloquial use of insane too literally. I don't frankly care if they are or aren't mentally sane (though if they actually think they are socialist, then they indeed are insane). Direct escalation of military violence with your U.S. backed neighbor does also reek very heavily of an almost pathological lack of concern for the lives of your citizenry. The cult around the North Korean leadership is also certainly not the brightest picture of mental health. So while I wasn't using insane in a literal sense, a literal application of the term does have some merit if you choose to take it in that direction.




or that their individual psychologies are the most important factor in explaining their foreign policy decision-making.That's another claim I never made.


Kim Jong-un, as a newly ascendant leader, to prove his capabilities to other factions and interest groups within the leadershipYou seem to be the one buying in to official state fairy tales. There's no remotely credible evidence that Kim Jong-un had anything remotely to do with this, and engaging in this type of risky escalation for such chauvinistic motives, is not well calculated - it's simple minded.



Saying that they are "insane" is an argument that is deeply steeped in orientalist assumptions, because it counterposes an irrational and unpredictable "oriental" state to a supposedly careful and rational "western" bloc.You're full of shit and you can fuck off with that charge. Don't project your own imagined comments on to me. Nowhere was any sort of "oriental = insane, western = rational" dichotomy stated except for in the conversation you seem to be having with yourself.

[Antifa94]

The President of South Korea has said he believes "enormous retaliation is going to be necessary to make North Korea incapable of provoking us again".Quoted by Yonhap news agency, Lee Myung-bak said (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/23/81/0301000000AEN20101123013700315F.HTML): "Reckless attacks on South Korean civilians are not tolerable, especially when South Korea is providing North Korea with humanitarian aid."
"As for such attacks on civilians, a response beyond the rule of engagement is necessary.
"Our military should show this through action rather than an administrative response," he added.
Lee did not rule out the possibility of follow-up attacks.
"Given that North Korea maintains an offensive posture, I think the Army, the Navy and the Air Force should unite and retaliate against [the North's] provocation with multiple-fold firepower," Lee said.
"I think enormous retaliation is going to be necessary to make North Korea incapable of provoking us again."


sounds like war.

[penguinfoot]

Your attempting to take a colloquial use of insane too literally

Words have meanings, they do not exist to be thrown around in a careless way by you or anyone else. If you don't think that the North Korean leadership is insane, then don't say they're "absolutely fucking insane".

Also, English does happen to be my first language, so I hope you won't mind be pointing out that it should be "you're", not "your".


I don't frankly care if they are or aren't mentally sane (though if they actually think they are socialist, then they indeed are insane).

I've no doubt that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown think they are socialists, does that make them insane as well? Do you think the many people in the United States who think that Obama is a socialist do so because they are mentally ill? I do happen to think that the North Korean leadership see themselves as socialist, because the alternative, that they do not see themselves or their society as socialist, is to assume, in light of the place of socialism in the discourses of the government, that they and other ruling classes in state-capitalist societies possess a degree of class consciousness and agency that they do not realistically have, in that it assumes that they are actually fully conscious of the capitalist nature of North Korean society and of the existence of mutually opposed class interests, and are consciously using the language of socialism as a way of cynically promoting their class interests - there's nothing wrong with that explanation in logical terms and it would be pretty naive to say that ruling classes or factions within ruling classes are incapable of being extremely cynical, but to rely on that kind of explanation to account for the whole decision-making of the North Korean bureaucracy (including, for example, the frequent references to socialism in their constitution) entails an absurdly conspiratorial attitude that has nothing to do with any Marxist analysis. There is a more sensible alternative to saying that the North Korean leadership do see themselves as socialist and are therefore insane or that they do not see themselves as socialist and are therefore perfectly conscious of their class interests and utterly cynical, which is to accept that class societies are not governed by a single standard of rationality, and that ruling classes are taken in by their own ideology - that they can, qua Althusser, only govern as a class in and through ideology because it is ideology that gives them consciousness and the ability to act on their own class interests. It's likely that Marx himself would have agreed with the notion of ruling classes being taken in by their own ideology and genuinely believing themselves to be acting on behalf of the whole of society because he states as such in The German Ideology, when he points out, having posed the possibility of ideas being separated from conflicting class interests and seen as representative of a universal interest, that "the ruling class itself on the whole imagines this to be so".


Direct escalation of military violence with your U.S. backed neighbor does also reek very heavily of an almost pathological lack of concern for the lives of your citizenry

Why would you expect the North Korean ruling class to exhibit anything other than a "lack of concern" for their own "citizenry", and why would a lack of concern be deemed "pathological" or evidence of mental illness? Does this mean that the governments of other societies where working people are mistreated are also full of people who are mentally ill? North Korea is a class society, the state is the executive committee of the ruling class, so the only sensible standard by which to judge the effectiveness of government decision-making is in terms of whether it enhances or undermines the interests of the ruling class, which it generally does, hence why I said that the North Korean ruling class is not mentally ill but actually very sensible. By suggesting otherwise - that the North Korean state should or is capable of pursuing a universal interest - you're perpetuating the idea that a universal interest exists in capitalist societies and that it is the role of the state to pursue this interest, which is a liberal, not a class analysis.


The cult around the North Korean leadership is also certainly not the brightest picture of mental health.

If the fetishization of leaders and other individuals is your criterion for whether someone is mentally ill or not, then entire societies must have been mentally ill at various points in history, including almost the whole of the classical world, due to their leaders being literally treated as gods, and the inhabitants even of "liberal-democratic" societies, where there is not government support for a cult of personality around a particular government leader, might also be seen as such, on account of their fetishization of individuals in the entertainment industry - in which case you rob the concept of mental illness of any determinate meaning or usefulness.


So while I wasn't using insane in a literal sense, a literal application of the term does have some merit if you choose to take it in that direction.

So are the leaders of North Korea suffering from mental illness or not? What about the rest of the population?


That's another claim I never made.

Then why cite this incident as evidence that the North Korean leadership are "absolutely fucking insane"?


You seem to be the one buying in to official state fairy tales. There's no remotely credible evidence that Kim Jong-un had anything remotely to do with this, and engaging in this type of risky escalation for such chauvinistic motives, is not well calculated - it's simple minded.

I don't think there is any government narrative, "fairy tale" or otherwise, which says that this incident is partly influenced by the interests of different actors within the North Korean regime, and whilst I don't have any direct evidence for my suggestion that this might have something to do with the need for Kim Jong-un to assert his power as an ascendant leader, this is a reflection of the fact that, when faced with a more or less opaque political system, we have to rely on theorizing and speculation to a degree. I don't think it would be simple-minded of Kim Jong-un to do such a thing, because it's hardly unheard of for new (or threatened) political leaders to use external incidents as a way of enhancing their own power and overcoming potential divisions within the state or society as a whole - consider the Falklands conflict as an alternative example, which was used by both sides to handle domestic unrest.


You're full of shit and you can fuck off with that charge. Don't project your own imagined comments on to me. Nowhere was any sort of "oriental = insane, western = rational" dichotomy stated except for in the conversation you seem to be having in yourself.

All I'm pointing out is that it's fairly common for "orientals" to be characterized as fundamentally irrational and counterposed to an enlightened and sensible "west", especially in place of a more nuanced analysis. I'd just like to see you explain why you think that the North Korean leadership is mentally ill and especially how this is suggested by the incident we're discussing.

[RadioRaheem84]

Nothing will come of this. There will be no WWIII.

NK is not workers state, but I would still defend it from imperial attack. Especially from hypocritical Western politics and their puppet States (SK).

The Juche ideology is just weird, but at least there is a modicum of somewhat decent living standards for all N.Koreans that the the government provides. I don't know how long this will last though considering the inane reform policies NK has conducted in order to follow China's road.
I do not like the accusations of it being a "Stalinist/Fascist" totalitarian State bullshit either. It's most assuredly not even a Cuba, but it's not Mussolini's Italy.

[penguinfoot]

their puppet States (SK)

By what definition is South Korea a "puppet state"? It's the world's 15th biggest economy, home to a range of multinational corporations, a country that dispatches forces as part of coalitions in countries like Afghanistan, a regional power in its own right...it's quite depressing how you feel you can just throw around words without justifying their use. Do you think Israel is a "puppet state" as well?

[RadioRaheem84]

Client State.....there, happy?

[RadioRaheem84]

By what definition is South Korea a "puppet state"? It's the world's 15th biggest economy, home to a range of multinational corporations, a country that dispatches forces as part of coalitions in countries like Afghanistan, a regional power in its own right...it's quite depressing how you feel you can just throw around words without justifying their use. Do you think Israel is a "puppet state" as well?

When it comes to defense South Korea does take a line from the US.

I find it depressing that you can be such a brazen asshole to some comrades in here instead of just stating your point in a clear headed manner.

[penguinfoot]

When it comes to defense South Korea does take a line from the US.

I find it depressing that you can be such a brazen asshole to some comrades in here instead of just stating your point in a clear headed manner.

Firstly, people like you are not my comrades. Secondly, yet more simplistic rubbish, the US does not just "set" the ROK's defense policy, the US was strongly opposed to the ROK's nuclear program in the 1970s, for example, and the relationship between the two countries is overall not so simple that you can say that one is the "client" or "puppet" of the other. Assertions without analysis and evidence may be good enough for Stalinists, but they're not good enough for Marxists.

[scarletghoul]

Don't be too CNN..



DPRK army counters S Korean artillery firing: KCNA



English.news.cn (http://english.news.cn/) 2010-11-23 18:44:13 http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/feedback.gif ([email protected])Feedback ([email protected])http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/dayin.gif (javascript:doPrint();)Printhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/rss.gif (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)RSS (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/rss/index.htm)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/line.gifhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t+.gif (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/23/c_13618991.htm#)http://www.xinhuanet.com/english2010/static/imgs/t-.gif (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/23/c_13618991.htm#)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/23/13618991_21n.jpg (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/23/c_13618991_3.htm)
Smoke is seen at Yeonpyeong island near the border against the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), in South Korea, Tuesday, Nov. 23, 2010. (Xinhua/AFP Photo)
PYONGYANG, Nov. 23 (Xinhua) -- The army of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) countered South Korean artillery firing with "determined military measures" on Tuesday afternoon, the official news agency KCNA reported.
The annonucement was made in a statement issued by the Supreme Command of the Korean People's Army (KPA) of the DPRK, said the report.
According to the KCNA, South Korea insisted on hold military exercises ignoring the repeated warning of the DPRK and shot toward the waters of DPRK with dozens of shells around Yonphyong Islet at 1:00 o'clock p.m. local time on Tuesday afternoon.
The KPA immediately beat back to the South Korean military provocation with determined military measures.
The statement didn't refer the concrete content of the "military measures."
"It is a traditional mode of counter-action of the army of the DPRK to counter the firing of the provocateurs with merciless strikes," said the statement.
If South Korea dared to intrude into the waters of the DPRK, the DPRK will take merciless military counter-actions against it without any hesitation, the statement warned.
According to South Korean media, the Yonphyong Islet suffered artillery firing from the DPRK side on Tuesday and there were reportedly casualties.
It is reported that a military exercise was held by South Korea in the nearby waters from Nov. 22 to Nov. 30.http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-11/23/c_13618991_2.htm

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

More pointless tit-for-tat posturing along the DMZ, nothing interesting to see here people.

[~Spectre]

Words have meanings, they do not exist to be thrown around in a careless way by you or anyone else.

I agree. Which is why charges of prejudice shouldn't be thrown around in a careless way by people like you. It's a poor substitute for actual argument, it cheapens the terms, and it doesn't cover up for the fact that you just invented things.
.


Also, English does happen to be my first language, so I hope you won't mind be pointing out that it should be "you're", not "your". I don't mind. I haven't slept for 30 hours so typos happen. I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.




I've no doubt that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown think they are socialists, does that make them insane as well?No, but it does make you a fucking moron. Neither of them consider themselves socialists. This is a trend in both your posts to me. You have a fundamental disconnect with reality.




Do you think the many people in the United States who think that Obama is a socialist do so because they are mentally ill? No not at all. A leadership however that claims to be Marxist, and yet engages in the anti-Marxist behavior that they do, is either consciously lying, or very likely pathological.



I do happen to think that the North Korean leadership see themselves as socialist, because the alternative, that they do not see themselves or their society as socialist, is to assume, in light of the place of socialism in the discourses of the government, that they and other ruling classes in state-capitalist societies possess a degree of class consciousness and agency that they do not realistically have, in that it assumes that they are actually fully conscious of the capitalist nature of North Korean society and of the existence of mutually opposed class interests, and are consciously using the language of socialism as a way of cynically promoting their class interests -Itt: They think they are socialist because they aren't aware of what is going on and would otherwise by lying with their official state rhetoric.

Well that's fucking brilliant. That could obviously never happen. :rolleyes:



(including, for example, the frequent references to socialism in their constitution):laugh: You might as well have added that they believe they are a democratic people's republic, because after all that's what they call themselves. It would be equally as silly.



entails an absurdly conspiratorial attitude that has nothing to do with any Marxist analysis. I missed the part where Marx says to believe a state about what it says. I'm not sure what conspiracy you're talking about. States use rhetoric all the time.






It's likely that Marx himself would have agreed with the notion of ruling classes being taken in by their own ideology and genuinely believing themselves to be acting on behalf of the whole of society because he states as such in The German Ideology, when he points out, having posed the possibility of ideas being separated from conflicting class interests and seen as representative of a universal interest, that "the ruling class itself on the whole imagines this to be so".
Sure. But then you're left with the laughable task of having to defend war with South Korea and invariably the United States as being the rational advancement of the working class.

You've still yet to say anything of substance, and much less anything that covers up how badly you made an ass out of yourself.






Why would you expect the North Korean ruling class to exhibit anything other than a "lack of concern" for their own "citizenry", and why would a lack of concern be deemed "pathological" or evidence of mental illness?If their state is destroyed, the NK ruling class dies. If they believe they are socialist, then setting their own working class up for destruction is an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance (what you're displaying right now).





Does this mean that the governments of other societies where working people are mistreated are also full of people who are mentally ill? No not necessarily. That would have nothing to do with anything I've said either.




North Korea is a class society, the state is the executive committee of the ruling class, so the only sensible standard by which to judge the effectiveness of government decision-making is in terms of whether it enhances or undermines the interests of the ruling class, which it generally does, hence why I said that the North Korean ruling class is not mentally ill but actually very sensible.It's not enforcing its own class interests very well by tempting destruction.




By suggesting otherwise - that the North Korean state should or is capable of pursuing a universal interest -
You're back to making things up. You should consider applying for work in the NK state.



If the fetishization of leaders and other individuals is your criterion for whether someone is mentally ill or not, then entire societies must have been mentally ill at various points in history, including almost the whole of the classical world, due to their leaders being literally treated as gods, and the inhabitants even of "liberal-democratic" societies, where there is not government support for a cult of personality around a particular government leader, might also be seen as such, on account of their fetishization of individuals in the entertainment industry - in which case you rob the concept of mental illness of any determinate meaning or usefulness.
No not at all. Actions and behaviors can be insane without all individuals in said society all being uniformly insane. The holocaust for instance was collective insanity. Yet that's not to say that all the citizens of Nazi germany would meet a definition of mentally ill.

Likewise, tempting regional destruction is insane unless you start with the following premises:

1) The U.S. and SK won't respond.

2) If they do, the destruction of North Korea is irrelevant to the leadership.

Then it becomes logical, but that just means they aren't very much in tune with reality. Neither are you, hence the laughable attempt at analysis you gave with the whole "THIS IS HOW THE NEXT IN LINE SHOWS HE BELONGS!!! SEE ISN'T THAT SENSIBLE?"





So are the leaders of North Korea suffering from mental illness or not? What about the rest of the population?
Probably at the same rate as all other humans in similar socio-economic hardships do. As for the leadership, surely there are many rational and sane individuals among it. That doesn't dispute the fact that certain actions and behaviors are in any sense of the word insane, or simply irrational based on any actual reality based premise.

I already explained to you how the term was meant though. Reckless, dangerous, foolish, etc. That's with the caveat however that they realize the danger of their actions and simply don't much care for the risk.



Then why cite this incident as evidence that the North Korean leadership are "absolutely fucking insane"?
Do you even read what you type?

Once can say "these people are fucking nuts because of this" without jumping to your totally fabricated claim of "their mental illness is the chief indicator of how they will formulate foreign policy".

You're in a hole, stop digging, or at least stop hitting your own head with the shovel.






I don't think there is any government narrative, "fairy tale" or otherwise,
Of course you do. External crisis strength domestic holds, but the idea that this level of decision is done for him is just insanely ignorant. It's akin to the idiocy of believing that Iranian foreign policy towards Israel depends on their president's stance on the holocaust. Pure, unadulterated, poorly constructed bullshit.

Moreover, it's not even a Marxist analysis. For someone who pretended to lecture about the imaginary violations of Marxist analysis, you sure do easily abandon it whenever you get called on your nonsense. This is probably because you don't actually give a damn about the analysis, you're simply spewing up walls of nonsense to cover up for your inability to read the initial fucking post that you so hilariously butchered. It's rather pitiful.

There are material reasons for them to act the way they did, and some of them do involve internal stability. For instance they'd like additional leverage to loosen up certain embargoes on them ( and thus better maintain internal stability by people not starving).

The problem is that it courts greater disaster, i.e. military obliteration. By all means don't let that stop your chauvinistic levels of personality politics. It's rather amusing after all.





All I'm pointing out You aren't pointing shit out. What you're doing is called trolling. You betrayed yourself as a troll when you can't be bothered to actually substantiate or back up any of your baseless allegations.

You asserted that I claimed this was a necessary proof for them being anti-working class. I never said this, yet you refused to back off your ludicrous claim.

You asserted that I claimed that the mental state of NK's leadership is the deciding indicator of their foreign policy. I never said this, yet you refused to back off your moronic claim.

Most shamefully of all, you dared accuse me of expressing "oriental = insane, western = rational", a fabrication so egregious that you should really be either banned or restricted for it.

I never said it. Everyone else can plainly see that I never said such a thing, yet you actually have the audacity to continue to assert such abject nonsense. That you can't read is your own issue, but fuck off with that bullshit. Rather than admit you were very badly confused, you make these pitiful attempts at victory via verbosity (argumentum ad wall of text). That says a lot about you, primarily that you're a dishonest, intellectual coward.

Go back under whatever fucking bridge you crawled out from.

[~Spectre]

Firstly, people like you are not my comrades.

:rolleyes:



the US was strongly opposed to the ROK's nuclear program in the 1970s, for exampleMoronic example. He wasn't discussing U.S. influence over South Korea in the 1970s.



Secondly, yet more simplistic rubbish, the US does not just "set" the ROK's defense policyYou haven't the slightest clue as to what you're talking about:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027.htm





Assertions without analysis and evidence may be good enough for Stalinists, but they're not good enough for Marxists.This quote is now suddenly a whole lot funnier.:laugh:

[RadioRaheem84]

Assertions without analysis and evidence may be good enough for Stalinists, but they're not good enough for Marxists.


You actually consider me a Stalinist? You actually consider ppl Stalinists? What a tool.....:rolleyes:

[Obs]

This thread is GLORIOUS.

As for the Korean situation, I'm in the camp that doubts anything will come of this. If either Korean state wanted a war, they would have pursued it by now - the ROK and the US are hoping to win a war of attrition by crippling the DPRK economically, and an all-out war would have a terrible effect on the US economy.

[RadioRaheem84]

Good post, Obs. 'Nuff said.

[punisa]

Kim Jung Un is celebrating his 25-th brithday?:mellow:
Go comrade Un ! :lol:

Back to the news, what do you think about this:

Hours after North Korea's deadly artillery attacks Tuesday, South Korea's president said "enormous retaliation" is needed to stop Pyongyang's incitement

[The Vegan Marxist]

Kim Jung Un is celebrating his 25-th brithday?:mellow:
Go comrade Un ! :lol:

Back to the news, what do you think about this:

Apparently it means that, despite the many provocations that the South brought against the DPRK, they still haven't learned their fucking lessons. It's just like the US when they kept bombing lands in the middle east. And so, they retaliated - hence 9/11 - as a warning. And what did we do? Bombed them again! Stupid fucking capitalists!

[#FF0000]

Apparently it means that, despite the many provocations that the South brought against the DPRK, they still haven't learned their fucking lessons. It's just like the US when they kept bombing lands in the middle east. And so, they retaliated - hence 9/11 - as a warning. And what did we do? Bombed them again! Stupid fucking capitalists!

You have a really really stupid idea of why 9/11 happened.

[Cultural Revolution]

9/11 was a carried out by a religeous fanatic, and the reason those members of Alquieda joined and carried out 9/11 could be more acurately be blamed on economic imperialism and the control of middle east natural resources and dictatorial regime, not so much bombing, but i get where your coming from, but capitalists are not stupid, and war benefits them enormously.

And the situation in Korea will probably stabilise, but if it does not, then we should support DPRK workers against the imperialists, but not support the revisionist line.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You have a really really stupid idea of why 9/11 happened.

I'm not saying that the wars were because of 9/11. But the US sure as hell didn't learn their lesson when they were attacked. Instead of actually listening, what did we do? We continued the status-quo, & used 9/11 as justification. Don't get me wrong. The wars were waged for far different reasons.

[Black Sheep]

I am eagerly awaiting a Kim-Yong-Il Megazord

[Obs]

I'm not saying that the wars were because of 9/11. But the US sure as hell didn't learn their lesson when they were attacked. Instead of actually listening, what did we do? We continued the status-quo, & used 9/11 as justification. Don't get me wrong. The wars were waged for far different reasons.
I think you're missing the fact that 9/11 was a good thing in the eyes of the US rulers, since it permitted them to start wars at will and to keep an even firmer grip on their population.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think you're missing the fact that 9/11 was a good thing in the eyes of the US rulers, since it permitted them to start wars at will and to keep an even firmer grip on their population.

Where did I state the contrary? I stated that the US used 9/11 as justification. How could this be anything else but a good thing for the US to wage wars?

[Obs]

Where did I state the contrary? I stated that the US used 9/11 as justification. How could this be anything else but a good thing for the US to wage wars?
You're claiming that the US should have "learned their lesson" after 9/11, when in fact they did learn a lesson; namely, that the greatest consequence their oppression of the Middle East and other regions can have are attacks that end up benefiting them anyway.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You're claiming that the US should have "learned their lesson" after 9/11, when in fact they did learn a lesson; namely, that the greatest consequence their oppression of the Middle East and other regions can have are attacks that end up benefiting them anyway.

hmm...True enough, I'd agree.

[Burn A Flag]

On a side note, I have a friend who looks exactly like Kim Jung Un. He even put a picture of him as his Facebook profile picture.

[Jazzhands]

This is actually common practice for both countries to start shit, ramp up the tensions, then back down. Regardless of who actually hit first, there are good explanations on both sides that don't involve actually going to war. For the South, it's to distract their proletariat from the current downturn by giving them an enemy, and someone who is actually worse off than they are. That way, whenever anyone talks about revolution against capitalism, the ruling class can say "At least we're not North Korea!" For the North, it's Kim Jong Un's chance to prove himself to the Party that he is just as capable of defending their interests as his father.

I don't think this will actually lead to all-out war. North Korea has no reason to go to war, since it's in the interests of the rulers of the WPK and Kim Jong Un to remain in control of the tiny area they have, as opposed to risking losing everything in a war against a much more developed and powerful enemy. South Korea wants to reunify the country, and get a source of labor as I've said. But the problem with the cheap labor thing is that if North Korea is absorbed into South Korea, the North Korean people are now subject to South Korean labor standards, meaning that there is no noticeable difference. It would actually be more of a problem for South Korea because they'd have to find some way to feed the North and restore its agriculture. The US? I can't think of a specific reason they'd want to go to war with the North, other than that they always need an enemy. But we already have Afghanistan, the Taliban, etc.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This situation isnt over yet. Wars dont just happen out of nowhere or immediately after an incident like this. we shall see what happens.

The invasion of Afghanistan came weeks after 9/11. The invasion of Cuba in 1898 came a while after the whole USS Maine incident.


What we know did happen is that india is deploying troops on the chinese border in an unrelated or loosely related event, world markets are down but defense industries are up. This also comes at the same time that everyone finds our the DPRK has 2000 centrifugest for uranium enrichment.



Also, this is not a regular incident. No civilians were killed, only military personnel. whats different though is that a populated area was hit and partially destroyed.

[#FF0000]

I'm not saying that the wars were because of 9/11. But the US sure as hell didn't learn their lesson when they were attacked. Instead of actually listening, what did we do? We continued the status-quo, & used 9/11 as justification. Don't get me wrong. The wars were waged for far different reasons.

9/11 wasn't because people in the Middle East thought we were being mean. It's because bin Laden doesn't like the U.S.'s deals with Saudi Arabia. It's entirely political and has barely anything to do with anyone resisting imperialism. That's what I meant.

But let's keep this on topic, now.

[penguinfoot]

Which is why charges of prejudice shouldn't be thrown around in a careless way by people like you

I'm not throwing accusations around, it's just that you've asserted that the North Korean leadership is mentally ill or otherwise irrational, and that this is proven by the incident that's currently unfolding, without giving an argument to support your assertion - if you really do believe that they're mentally ill or irrational, then you need to give some evidence and analysis to support that.


No, but it does make you a fucking moron. Neither of them consider themselves socialists

Yes, they do, they are both members of a political organization that describes itself as a "democratic socialist party", in fact the clause where the party is described in those terms (Clause IV) was altered under the leadership of Blair himself, and it was only after its alteration at Blair's initiative that the Labour Party rulebook actually defined the party as "democratic socialist", as Clause IV had previously focused on the party's commitment to public ownership to the means of production, rather than an expression of its goals in more philosophical or ideological terms. Both Blair and Brown have referred to themselves as socialists in countless speeches as a quick look at Hansard will show you, and the same is true of their respective autobiographies. I think, however, that you misunderstand why I pointed to these leaders describing themselves as socialists. It is not because I believe that they are actually socialists or that they are models for other socialists to follow, I pointed it out because I found it problematic to assume that if someone describes themselves as a socialist but does not really deserve to be described as such, then they must be either lying or insane, because this neglects the fact that socialism and socialist are contested terms (as are all forms of political language) and that societies exhibit no single standard of rationality - and that ruling classes can and do genuinely believe themselves to be promoting a universal interest. This might become clearer if we shift back to Korea:


No not at all. A leadership however that claims to be Marxist, and yet engages in the anti-Marxist behavior that they do, is either consciously lying, or very likely pathological

Consider the following a response to most of what you said in your last post. I do not think that we should accept the North Korean leadership at their word, I think that when they describe themselves as socialist and justify their decision-making in terms of the interests of the working class or the interests of the whole of North Korean society their discourses have the effect of distorting and obscuring the real nature of North Korea, that is, its status as a society that, like every other currently existing one, is torn by class antagonisms. What I do not accept is that their discourses are the result either of conscious lying (for reasons I've already stated - that gives the bureaucracy an unrealistic level of class consciousness and collective agency, relies on a vast conspiracy) or because they are all mentally ill, it is because ruling classes and government leaders in particular are, generally speaking, genuinely under the illusion that they do act in the interests of society as a whole because they are captured by their own ideology and because of their position at the apex of the state apparatus, such that the actual tendency of the state to favor the particular interests of the ruling class, which is present in North Korea and in every other society, is a result neither of lying nor of insanity but of forces that lead to the particular interests of that class being identified by the ruling class with an envisaged universal interest. This is what Marx stresses not only in The German Ideology but also in his earlier work, which is also important for understanding his theory of the state, 'Critical Notes on "The King of Prussia and Social Reform. By a Prussian"', in which he draws intention to the existence of a contradiction between "the vocation and the good intentions of the administration" and "the means and powers at its disposal" - clearly he believes that the intentions of governments are "good" insofar as they see themselves as the protectors of universal interests within a society whose essential relations they take as given and universal.

Is this clear enough? I'm not interested in discussing this point further because I've made my position perfectly clear.


It's not enforcing its own class interests very well by tempting destruction.

For the record, I don't think that the North Korean ruling class does really threaten its interests in this way (which would show that it is irrational from the viewpoint of its own interests - the only real criterion by which to judge government decision-making, even though you previously argued that the leadership must be insane on account of their role in promoting mass starvation and poverty) because they've shown a marked tendency to back down whenever a strategy of brinkmanship has produced a serious possibility of intervention or war - for example, when in 1976, two US soldiers were killed during the course of the "Tree Cutting Incident", the response of the US was to move nuclear bombers from their base in Guam to the ROK and to fly those bombers towards the DMZ without informing the North of what they were doing or what the bombers were carrying, only to turn back just before the bombers were due to enter into the DMZ itself, as a way of demonstrating their strength to the DPRK, with the response of the DPRK to this act being, not to take up the opportunity for a full scale conflict between the two sides, but, under the leadership of Kim Il Sung, to call publicly for a reduction in tensions, and to pursue improved relations with the Carter administration that was in office at the time. The North's use of terrorist attacks against ROK officials overseas, such as the attacks in Rangoon in 1983, have, in general, occurred at points where tensions have not been at their highest, precisely because these attacks represent a means by which the DPRK can show its dissatisfaction with the status quo at the same time as not risking a renewal of open conflict.

In these ways, even if, by insane, you mean in the sense of the leadership's actions being irrational from the viewpoint of their own interests, it's not really clear how they are insane or irrational - they are, if anything, very sensible, as I've always argued. I think you need to point to policy decisions that were irrational from the viewpoint of the ruling class.


Neither are you, hence the laughable attempt at analysis you gave with the whole "THIS IS HOW THE NEXT IN LINE SHOWS HE BELONGS!!! SEE ISN'T THAT SENSIBLE?"

First of all, I've never claimed that this whole incident was underpinned literally only by the particular interests of Kim Jong-un, I said that it was a possible factor, and one that has historical precedents - possible, because it's difficult to make confident assertions when faced with such an opaque political system - and that the creation of external incidents is in general an effective way of safeguarding the collective interests of the ruling class, beyond the interests of particular individuals or factions, because of how it can serve to strengthen the notion of a universal interest and an embattled national community. Secondly, I don't see what's so illogical or shocking about me suggesting that the incident needs to be understood in the context of recent changes in leadership structure, especially given the historical precedents, and you need to explain what's so absurd or idiotic about that line of argument.


You asserted that I claimed this was a necessary proof for them being anti-working class. I never said this, yet you refused to back off your ludicrous claim

I never said that you saw it as necessary proof, I questioned why it should be cited as significant proof, as if this incident is out of the ordinary or especially significant as evidence that North Korea is a class-divided society.


You asserted that I claimed that the mental state of NK's leadership is the deciding indicator of their foreign policy. I never said this, yet you refused to back off your moronic claim

The important thing is that you haven't yet explained in what sense the leadership is insane - be it in the literal sense of mentally ill, which you've occasionally suggested might be the case, in the broader sense of irrational from the viewpoint of the class interests of the bureaucracy, or in the sense of the interests of North Korean society as a whole. All I've done is maintain that the bureaucracy is very effective at defending its class interests, whereas you've asserted time and time again that they're insane in various ways, without explaining how.


you dared accuse me of expressing "oriental = insane, western = rational", a fabrication so egregious that you should really be either banned or restricted for it.

I think that this is what underpins your argument, whether you recognize it or not is not that important to me. I never suggested you were going out of your way to characterize the "orient" as fundamentally irrational.


Moronic example. He wasn't discussing U.S. influence over South Korea in the 1970s.

They gave no indication that the ROK being a "client" or "puppet" state is a recent development, so I don't see how an example from several decades ago is "moronic" - but if you want a further example from the contemporary period, then consider the Dokdo Island dispute, in which the US has neither prompted nor supported the position of the ROK. Neither you nor them have been able to show that the ROK is anything other than a military power in its own right.


You haven't the slightest clue as to what you're talking about:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...oplan-5027.htm

The existence of various military agreements between the ROK and the US does not suffice to show that one is a "client" or "puppet" of the other.


You actually consider me a Stalinist? You actually consider ppl Stalinists? What a tool.....

Yes, I do consider you to be a Stalinist, because you regard countries like the People's Democracies as some form of socialism, "siege" or otherwise, and yes, I do consider Stalinism part of my political vocabulary, being a Trotskyist. I don't know why you're surprised on either of these counts.

******

I think the most important question is: in what way is the North Korean leadership irrational or insane, especially terms of its own class interests? Isn't the fact that the current ruling class has been able to remain in power for so long and in spite of so many challenges pretty good evidence that they're an extremely effective ruling class when it comes to defending their own class interests, rather than being fundamentally irrational?

[Obs]

Yes, I do consider you to be a Stalinist, because you regard countries like the People's Democracies as some form of socialism, "siege" or otherwise, and yes, I do consider Stalinism part of my political vocabulary, being a Trotskyist. I don't know why you're surprised on either of these counts.
It may have to do with the fact that you're being so unbelievably dogmatic that he (like myself, for that matter) has trouble believing you're real.

[Rusty Shackleford]

for fucks sake penguinfoot. i already asked spectre to cut the sectarian crap.

can a mod please split these "youre a stalinist" posts into a "I hate people who defend the DPRK thread" or a "lets talk about the DPRK and have a fun shitstorm"

same goes for those posts arguing on either side. im tired of this happening to every thread about the DPRK.

[apawllo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O33sfN00oDk

This is becoming reminiscent of the 2008 South Ossetia Conflict, in terms of media counterplay at least...

[penguinfoot]

for fucks sake penguinfoot. i already asked spectre to cut the sectarian crap.

can a mod please split these "youre a stalinist" posts into a "I hate people who defend the DPRK thread" or a "lets talk about the DPRK and have a fun shitstorm"

same goes for those posts arguing on either side. im tired of this happening to every thread about the DPRK.

Firstly, you don't understand what "sectarian" means - it does not mean "having disagreements with people and relating those disagreements to their underlying political positions" - and secondly, if you don't want threads like this one to provoke debate, you should go elsewhere.

[L.A.P.]

Firstly, people like you are not my comrades. Secondly, yet more simplistic rubbish, the US does not just "set" the ROK's defense policy, the US was strongly opposed to the ROK's nuclear program in the 1970s, for example, and the relationship between the two countries is overall not so simple that you can say that one is the "client" or "puppet" of the other. Assertions without analysis and evidence may be good enough for Stalinists, but they're not good enough for Marxists.

Wow, you're a complete asshole.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's what Comrade Gowans had to say:

North Korea attacks South Korea…or is it the other way around?
By Stephen Gowans

If you read Mark McDonald’s article in The New York Times, “‘Crisis Status’ in South Korea After North Shells Island (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24korea.html?_r=2&hp)”, the answer depends on whether you paid attention to the headline, the expert commentary, and the tone of the article, or whether you paid attention to the facts.

If you paid attention to the former then North Korea attacked South Korea.

If you paid attention to the latter, the opposite is true.

Here are the facts McDonald reported.

o 70,000 South Korean troops were beginning a military drill…sharply criticized by Pyongyang as “simulating an invasion of the North” and “a means to provoke a war.”

o ROK artillery units fired toward the DPRK from a battery close to the North Korean coast. The South acknowledges firing the shots.

o The DPRK replied.

Shouldn’t the headline read: ‘Crisis Status’ in North Korea after South Korea Mobilizes 70,000 Troops and Shells the North’?

http://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/north-korea-attacks-south-korea%E2%80%A6or-is-it-the-other-way-around/

[dez]

Rumors Kim Jong Il is dead, and this is a powerplay by either his son or the military. Anyone knows anything about it?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Firstly, you don't understand what "sectarian" means - it does not mean "having disagreements with people and relating those disagreements to their underlying political positions" - and secondly, if you don't want threads like this one to provoke debate, you should go elsewhere.
this kind of debate is useless. everyone already knows every tendencies argument for or against the DPRK.

i would just like to see a plain old news thread to keep information up o date and to share resources on the event.

Over the course of this year, there have been countless DPRK theads, and they always start out as just people posting articles and some light discussion and then 4 or 5 pages in they become tendency circle jerks.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Rumors Kim Jong Il is dead, and this is a powerplay by either his son or the military. Anyone knows anything about it?

Just rumours.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/23/north-south-korea-crisis-conflict

The US and other countries around the world pleaded for restraint today after North Korea (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/north-korea) fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island, killing two soldiers and injuring civilians.
With tensions running high on the peninsula, the South Korean president, Lee Myung-bak, met his top military in an underground bunker in Seoul and ordered the air force to strike North Korean missile bases if there is any further provocation.
The clash is one of the most serious since the end of the Korean war in 1953. Relations were already strained by the revelation at the weekend that North Korea has a new uranium enrichment facility.
In an immediate response to the artillery barrage, Seoul scrambled F-16 fighter jets to the western sea and returned fire.
Diplomats and analysts in Washington and elsewhere around the world warned that while neither the North nor South wanted all-out war, the risk of incidents such as today's was that it could tip the peninsula into an accidental war.
There appeared to be little appetite in either Seoul or Washington for military retaliation or a new round of sanctions.
The North, in a short statement carried by the official KCNA news agency, said the South had fired first despite repeated warnings. It threatened more strikes if the South crossed the maritime border by "even 0.001 millimetre".
The South said its troops had not been firing towards the North during their live-fire exercise, which was part of regular drills in the area.
South Korean officials said two marines were killed in the attack and 17 injured, while three civilians were wounded. A Seoul-based broadcaster showed images of smoke rising from buildings on Yeonpyeong, which lies just 75 miles west of Seoul. It is home to about 1,600 civilians and 1,000 soldiers.
Lee Chun-ok, a 54-year-old island resident, told the Associated Press she was watching TV when she heard artillery and a wall and door in her home collapsed.
"I thought I would die," said Lee, who was evacuated to the port city of Incheon. "I'm still terrified."
The president's spokeswoman Kim Hee-jung said after his meeting with military leaders: "President Lee instructed [the military] to strike North Korea's missile base near its coastline artillery positions if necessary ... if there is an indication of further provocation".
The US president, Barack Obama, who was woken just before 4am by his national security adviser, Tom Donilon, to be informed of the attack, issued a statement condemning it and planned to speak to the South Korean president late today.
Bill Burton, a White House spokesman travelling with Obama aboard Air Force One today, said: "North Korea has a pattern of doing things that are provocative. This is a particularly outrageous act." But he offered no specifics on any action.
Obama took office in January last year offering to talk directly with the North in an effort to persuade them to abandon a nuclear weapons programme, but the North has responded with missile launches, a nuclear test and the alleged torpedoing this year of a South Korean naval ship, the Cheonan, killing 46.
Some analysts saw the artillery attack as part of the North's campaign to have international sanctions withdrawn and to secure a promise of more aid in return for denuclearisation. Others saw it as a localised incident, with the North responding to military exercises by the South that had become too close.
The United Nations secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, condemned the barrage, saying: "The attack was one of the gravest incidents since the end of the Korean war." But he called for restraint.
The UN security council briefly discussed the incident but made no statement. China, North Korea's closest ally, has a veto on the security council and could block any condemnation .
In London the British foreign secretary, William Hague, urged Pyongyang to stop further "unprovoked" attacks.
Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said there was a "colossal danger" of escalation, Reuters reported.
China steered clear of assigning blame. A foreign ministry spokesman urged both sides to "do more to contribute to peace and stability in the region".
Stephen Bosworth, the US special envoy on North Korea, who was in Beijing , told reporters he had discussed the clash with the Chinese foreign minister and they agreed both sides should show restraint.
The Pentagon played down the prospect of a military response or more sanctions. "It's hard to pile more sanctions upon the North than are already there," said Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary.
Han Seung-joo, a former South Korean foreign minister, said the attack was the most serious clash since the end of the Korean war in that it targeted land.
Han said: "It is not only because it involves civilian casualties, but the deliberateness of the bombardment."
But he added: "I don't think it will escalate into anything much more serious."
Bruce Klingner, a senior research fellow at the Asian Studies Centre, part of the Heritage Foundation, a Washington thinktank, said: "The situation on the peninsula is tense but unlikely to lead to war."
Professor Chu Shulong, an expert on international security at Beijing's Tsinghua University, said: "North Korea has always been a place that likes to make trouble to get attention from the international community ... They can start a new round of negotiations and get supplies from other countries. This is what they have been doing during the past 20 years."
Paul Stares of the Council of Foreign Relations predicted the US would put pressure on China to rein in the North, while China would urge the US to lessen military and diplomatic pressure.
Peter Beck, a research fellow with the Council, told Associated Press: "It brings us one step closer to the brink of war.
"I don't think the North would seek war by intention, but war by accident, something spiralling out of control, has always been my fear."



this could get out of hand really fast if either side makes any kind of move.

[penguinfoot]

this kind of debate is useless. everyone already knows every tendencies argument for or against the DPRK.

i would just like to see a plain old news thread to keep information up o date and to share resources on the event.

Over the course of this year, there have been countless DPRK theads, and they always start out as just people posting articles and some light discussion and then 4 or 5 pages in they become tendency circle jerks.

I'm not trying to introduce a boring clash between "tendencies" or to make this a debate about the pros and cons (so to speak) of the DPRK - I think the key issue which is raised by this incident is in what senses we should see the decision-making of the DPRK government as rational or irrational, in light of the fact that the decision-making of the government is frequently dismissed as irrational, with some people, as we've seen, even going to the point of saying that key leaders are mentally ill. What I've been arguing is that if you move beyond a liberal epistemological terrain in which the existence of a universal interest is taken for granted, and recognize that North Korea is a class-divided society, with conflicting class interests, and that foreign policy is an extension of domestic policy insofar as it is under the control of the same class and used to serve the same class interests, then we can gain a new perspective on the decision-making of the government and understand that its foreign policy, especially the provocation or utilization of international incidents, is extremely rational and sensible insofar as it is a highly effective way of protecting the interests of the ruling bureaucracy - which, if you adopt a Marxist analysis of the state, is the only important criterion, because we don't accept that there is (outside of revolutionary periods) such a thing as a universal interest in class-divided societies or that governments exist to pursue an interest of that nature, even if were to exist in some ideal sense.

So, I think the key and most interesting question is: is it right to view North Korean foreign policy as highly effective and rational, as I've argued? Or does it actually threaten the interests of the ruling class, and if so, why? I submit that this debate is based to a degree on the assumption that North Korea is a class-divided society, but if it is not, then does foreign policy serve the interests of the whole community (given that there would presumably be such a thing as a community interest, in the absence of class divisions) and if not, why not, and whose interests does it serve, if anyone's, given the absence of a ruling class?

[DDR]

Hey mates, can we have this thread for the news and opinions on that a quit the estupidity of "the evil north coreans stalinist" vs. "the counterrevolutionarys who don't support NK?

I mean, I want to stay in tune with the info and read the opinion of the people in this forum about this incident.

Thank you very much.
____________________________

To many incidents in one year, this one probably the biggest. Anyhow right now the situation is, IMHO, at the blink of a fully 2nd corean war.

[Crux]

Question, has there been any unrest or protests targeted at the South Korean government prior to this? Provoking the north seems to be a common way for the SK government to divert it's population's attention from domestic issues.

[red cat]

Question, has there been any unrest or protests targeted at the South Korean government prior to this? Provoking the north seems to be a common way for the SK government to divert it's population's attention from domestic issues.

Very good point.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Question, has there been any unrest or protests targeted at the South Korean government prior to this? Provoking the north seems to be a common way for the SK government to divert it's population's attention from domestic issues.

We already know that there's been mass protests in South Korea since the G20 meetings.

[penguinfoot]

Question, has there been any unrest or protests targeted at the South Korean government prior to this? Provoking the north seems to be a common way for the SK government to divert it's population's attention from domestic issues.

...and the same is true - and probably more likely, based on the facts that have been made available at this moment - of North Korea, where domestic arrest has also been mounting, as evidenced by the huge increases in the number of individuals who have chosen to flee via the northern border with China, compared to previous years. Yet, a large part of the membership here seems to think that it's enough to say that the North Korean leaders are just insane, and be done with it, so...

[Rusty Shackleford]

actual video.

eGLw9XSvmVc

[KurtFF8]

The end of that video said "Seoul is investigating whether the military operations had something to do with the aggression."

Didn't the DPRK come out and claim that that was the exact reason?

I'm no fan of the DPRK, but the reporting on this incident by Western media has been awful, just take the AP's most recent article (as of right now)
Analysis: Attack is North Korean bid for attention (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_koreas_clash_analysis;_ylt=AvCBrSqzn1Bva6_3tWGS KmSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNvcjZqb3AwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAx MTIzL2FzX2tvcmVhc19jbGFzaF9hbmFseXNpcwRjY29kZQNtb3 N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzEEcG9zAzIEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNl YwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2FuYWx5c2lzYXR0YQ--)

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Western media likes to play these events down, uttering opinions as if they were facts probably to save the stock holders any trouble of thinking for themselves. People seem to be more worried about the Economic effects of a war than the Human effects of a war... shows where our fucking priorities lie. 'Oh, 5 million people died, but the at least the DOW's up 12 points. Hooray'...

[Red Commissar]

The end of that video said "Seoul is investigating whether the military operations had something to do with the aggression."

Didn't the DPRK come out and claim that that was the exact reason?

I'm no fan of the DPRK, but the reporting on this incident by Western media has been awful, just take the AP's most recent article (as of right now)
Analysis: Attack is North Korean bid for attention (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_koreas_clash_analysis;_ylt=AvCBrSqzn1Bva6_3tWGS KmSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNvcjZqb3AwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAx MTIzL2FzX2tvcmVhc19jbGFzaF9hbmFseXNpcwRjY29kZQNtb3 N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzEEcG9zAzIEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNl YwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2FuYWx5c2lzYXR0YQ--)

I think I read somewhere that South Korea acknowledged the were doing military maneuvers and what not, but say that they didn't target anything at NK positions (ie they think they didn't provoke anything).

Though the media doesn't care for that angle, they have to make NK look like a bunch of loose cannons that do things like this for no reason. Hell, it's very easy to see the media's stances towards all this, I remember more recently with the way the Georgia-Russian war was covered.

[Rusty Shackleford]

SK admitted there was live firing.

[The Vegan Marxist]

SK admitted there was live firing.

Yes, but they also claimed that it wasn't towards the DPRK. Again, we don't know if this is truth or not.

[Rafiq]

I sense utter bullshit from South Korea and the American government.

[Rafiq]

I'm sorry, I don't see a rebuttal in the above quote.

Is there need for one?

Why do you take sides against the North?

[KurtFF8]

I think I read somewhere that South Korea acknowledged the were doing military maneuvers and what not, but say that they didn't target anything at NK positions (ie they think they didn't provoke anything).

Though the media doesn't care for that angle, they have to make NK look like a bunch of loose cannons that do things like this for no reason. Hell, it's very easy to see the media's stances towards all this, I remember more recently with the way the Georgia-Russian war was covered.

From what I understand, they were doing exercises in disputed waters/territory. How would that not be seen as a provocation by the North?

The media does indeed try to paint the North as "just crazy" or as I pointed up "just wanting attention" (they would love to add "like a child" if they were allowed to I'm sure).

Again, whatever your Leftist perspective on the DPRK is, we should understand these situations. The information about the country and these events tends to be heavily biased from one side or another in every case.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Japan may strengthen sanctions (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTKB00716720101124)

Nov 24 (Reuters) - Japan may strengthen sanctions on North Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/north-korea) after North Korea's deadly shelling of a South Korean island on Tuesday, Japanese Economics Minister Banri Kaieda said on Wednesday.
"I think the government may move towards strengthening sanctions on North Korea," he told a news conference after a cabinet meeting.
He also said that stock falls stemming from North Korea's attacks could have an impact on Japan's economy


And in another article, the commander of US forces in Korea is talking about "waiting and seeing what happens." this article also discusses the huge difference in size the two "sides" have.
linky (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/nov/23/231847/honore-us-commander-in-s-korea-faces-balancing-act/news-breaking/)

Russel Honore has a pretty good idea of what is going on right now in the mind of Army Gen. Walter L. "Skip" Sharp, commander of U.S. forces in South Korea, which has just been hit by a deadly barrage of artillery by the North Koreans.
"Right now, he is thinking, what does he do to not escalate the situation and at the same time be prepared to defend South Korea?" says Honore, the commanding general of the U.S. 2nd Infantry Division in Korea between 2000 and 2002.
The answer, says Horore – who gained fame for overseeing the National Guard's recovery efforts in New Orleans and is now retired and on the board of a St. Petersburg-based international security firm called Grand I.S.S. – is not simple.
North Korea has 1.2 million troops compared to South Korea's 680,000, says Honore. North Korea has twice as many artillery pieces, 1,000 more tanks and more than 10 times the number of missiles.
There are nearly 30,000 U.S. troops in South Korea facing an army that vastly outnumbers and outguns them – with about 15,000 in range of North Korean missiles, says Honore. And, unlike when Honore was in South Korea, there are now many troops' family members living in harm's way.
Though the South Korean military is currently in charge, Sharp, as U.S. and UN commander, will take control should the battle escalate.
The attack comes at a time when news has surfaced about a new North Korean uranium enrichment facility. And China is an ever-looming presence that sometimes reels in its client state and sometimes looks the other way, Honore says.
Sharp "has a balancing act," says Honore. "Both the U.S. and UN forces are in a wait-and-see mode. Is this another mad act by North Korea, or are there other indicators" of something more serious?
Honore says Sharp and his staff will be closely monitoring satellite imagery of North Korea's military and its medium-range missiles, which can easily reach Seoul, South Korea's capital and most populous city.
He won't have much time to act. While the North Korean army takes time to move, the impoverished nation built a massive underground bunker system to hide its missiles.
"The missile warning system is now a matter of minutes, not hours," says Honore.
As a show of force and measured response, Sharp will be looking at a number of options, including bringing in additional fighter planes from Guam and Japan and asking for an aircraft carrier from the 7th Fleet, stationed in Japan.
Tuesday's attack comes as South Korea is still protesting the suspected North Korean torpedo attack that sank the South Korean navy ship Cheonan in March, killing 47 South Korean sailors. Though tensions, already high in the region, have increased, Honore calls the latest military action by North Korea "standard operating procedure during a transition."
With North Korean leader Kim Jong Il said to be ailing and his son, Kim Jon Un said to be next in line, Honore calls the artillery barrage the sound of "a bad kid in the family acting up."
North Korea, he says, also acts belligerent when it wants something from the outside world – like food or fuel - says Honore.
"To old Korea hands," the latest attack "was not an accident," says Honore. "Each time they act up, the world gives them what they want."



theres also a very alarmist article which was titled "JAPAN AND NORTH KOREA, BRINK OF WAR? (http://www.thecypresstimes.com/article/News/National_News/JAPAN_AND_NORTH_KOREA_BRINK_OF_WAR/36656)"

this one is pretty much useless though.

[Rafiq]

I really don't think anything big is going to happen.


And it is in our interest to hope something won't

[Rusty Shackleford]

Im just trying to post as much relevant news that is in some way unique.

I think what happens next really depends on what the US says is ok to do. Its highly unlikely that military action will be taken without new provocation by either side. No one wants the war to resume.

I have an opinion that the "sabre rattling" by the north really is the only way for it to do anything without making any major economic or political reforms to ensure the DPRK's existence.

Heres a 2 page NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24nkorea.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1) discussing the USs options.

But as a former national security official who dealt frequently with North Korea in the Bush administration, Victor Cha, said just a few hours before the attack began, North Korea is “the land of lousy options.” Mr. Obama is once again forced to choose between equally unpalatable choices: responding with verbal condemnations and a modest tightening of sanctions, which has done little to halt new attacks, and reacting strongly, which could risk a broad war in which South Korea’s vibrant capital, Seoul, would be the first target.

[~Spectre]

We don't want to spam the thread up with your verbal diarrhea anymore but just really quick:




Yes, they do, they are both members of a political organization that describes itself as a "democratic socialist party"

If you're still at the "it's the name ergo" phase of "thinking", I really can't help you. National Socialists don't consider themselves socialists either.



Skipping over another bullshit chunk of text in which you say nothing and dance around your embarrassing miss steps:





For the record, I don't think that the North Korean ruling class does really threaten its interests in this way

Because you're a fool. All it takes is one misstep on either side during this ridiculous form of "brinksmanship" to escalate the situation out of control and result in the destruction of North Korea.




First of all, I've never claimed that this whole incident was underpinned literally only by the particular interests of Kim Jong-un,

Yes you did. You un-marxist stalinist. It's cuz' you're making orientalist assumptions isn't it? :rolleyes:





I never said that you saw it as necessary proof,

Yes you did. Re-read your own posts troll.






I think that this is what underpins your argument,



No. It's not even remotely related to anything I've written. It's merely something you invented to trolololololol. If it wasn't you'd actually be able to...you know, quote me saying it. Alas you can't. How you're not yet banned is astounding.



The existence of various military agreements between the ROK and the US does not suffice to show that one is a "client" or "puppet" of the other.


"Secondly, yet more simplistic rubbish, the US does not just "set" the ROK's defense policy "

Your own words. It shows that you have no fucking clue what the setup between SK and the United states is. Not even the slightest you dumb shit.

You're so unbelievably dishonest that when you get called out on such a major error, you quite literally just change it up. Unreal.

The US does set their defense policy.


In closing, allow me simply to advise the following: Die in a grease fire.

[~Spectre]

(Reuters) - The United States plans to consult with allies including China to develop a "measured and unified" response to North Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/north-korea)'s artillery attack on a South Korean island, the U.S. State Department said on Tuesday.
"Everybody involved is stunned by North Korea's provocative actions," State Department spokesman Mark Toner told a news briefing. "We are working again within an established framework with our partners so we have a deliberate approach to this. We're not going to respond willy nilly."


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM5KS20101123

[The Vegan Marxist]

^China's not the US's ally. Only a bilateral relations partner. If they were allies, then the US wouldn't constantly lead propaganda campaigns against them.

[~Spectre]

Cooler heads might prevail:

The general in charge of U.S.-led U.N. forces in South Korea, Walter Sharp, on Wednesday called for general-officer talks with North Korea to de-escalate the situation.
"The question for South Korea is how much more serious can these attacks get before the risk of doing nothing, and showing there's no cost, is worse than the risk of prompting an overreaction by North Korea," said Andrew Gilholm, an analyst in Beijing for Control Risks, a risk consultancy for financial firms. "My own view is we're still not at that level."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704369304575632502613098026.html?m od=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsTop

[dernier combat]

Nothing will happen. This will all be solved diplomatically.

[The Vegan Marxist]

God damn. Things are heating up drastically right now. More so than they really should be.

Apparently, word's been given that US warships are now heading towards the Korean waters, and South Korea have evacuated everyone who lives near the border. Stating that "the region stands on the brink of war."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/24/3075561.htm?section=justin

[Devrim]

Words have meanings, they do not exist to be thrown around in a careless way by you or anyone else. If you don't think that the North Korean leadership is insane, then don't say they're "absolutely fucking insane".

Also, English does happen to be my first language, so I hope you won't mind be pointing out that it should be "you're", not "your".

As English is your first language you should be aware that the term crazy is often used as a figure of speech as, incidentally, it is in many languages.

We had a long discussion at work yesterday about whether Ertuğrul Sağlam, the coach of Bursaspor, was crazy in view of the tactics that he has adopted in the Champions League, as in "He must be absolutely crazy if he thinks they can pass it out from the back against the likes of Manchester United and Valencia".

However, I don't think that anybody was seriously questioning his mental health.


yes, I do consider Stalinism part of my political vocabulary, being a Trotskyist.

Obviously not a very good one.


For the record, I don't think that the North Korean ruling class does really threaten its interests in this way (which would show that it is irrational from the viewpoint of its own interest

Central to the Trotskyist analysis is the idea that the bureaucracy is not a class.

Devrim

[Devrim]

At spectre-

I am not at all interested in defending North Korea right now. If my last post gave you a different impression then I apologize.

My point is that there are many different angles and arguments that can be created right now. However these arguments only exist because of the current lack of information we have. We think that South Korea was legitimately considering bringing in more US missiles. We think U.S convoy's may have already been on their way before the attacks even started. We don't know the full extent of the damage of the attack. We can do a lot of thinking, but with very little knowing there isn't much of a point.

Any speculation we do now is subject to be totally destroyed by new factual information that could come out in a few hours. There is no point in deeply debating something if it stands the real chance of becoming immediately useless.

Finally, when it comes to conflict between the DPRK and the west there is no clear cut side that is totally correct. In fact I believe they are both deeply flawed. Thus any discussion of them needs to be both complex and substantial. Unfortunately while the issues that precluded these attacks were certainly complex, the information we have is far from substantial.

I don't see why any of this effects our political analysis. I mean is it really important when looking at wars between two capitalist states to know who 'started' it?

Devrim

[Rusty Shackleford]

God damn. Things are heating up drastically right now. More so than they really should be.

Apparently, word's been given that US warships are now heading towards the Korean waters, and South Korea have evacuated everyone who lives near the border. Stating that "the region stands on the brink of war."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/24/3075561.htm?section=justin


I was reading a few articles discussing the same thing and they reminded me about the drills in the Yellow Sea in August when the USS George Washington was supposed to be there and China raised a shit storm over it. The USS G.W. is being deployed to that very same spot to join in extended drills this week.

[penguinfoot]

If you're still at the "it's the name ergo" phase of "thinking", I really can't help you. National Socialists don't consider themselves socialists either.

...which is why I also pointed out that Brown and Blair are declared themselves to be socialists in their speeches and writings, although, if you want to argue that specific point, there were leading members of the Nazi party who might have considered themselves socialists, such as the Strassers. I think you miss the point, though, the reason I brought up the Labour Party was in response to your view that the North Korean leadership does not actually believe itself to be socialist, in which case the only explanation for its discourses would be that the whole of the bureaucracy is conscious of its class interests and has a degree of collective agency that allows it to cynically manipulate socialism as a means of social and political control, whilst being aware of its privileged and exploitative position, or, as you also said, that the bureaucracy is literally insane - and my point was that it's entirely accurate to say that actually, the bureaucracy does view itself as genuinely socialist, because government leaders and ruling classes tend to identify their own interests with a universal interest that encompasses society as a whole.


All it takes is one misstep on either side during this ridiculous form of "brinksmanship" to escalate the situation out of control and result in the destruction of North Korea.

Of course, but this doesn't show that the North Korean bureaucracy doesn't skillfully use brinkmanship as a way of rationally pursuing its own class interests or that they haven't also historically backed down when faced with a real prospect of conflict, what it shows is that there's a possibility that war might break out "accidentally", so to speak. You've said that the ruling class is irrational from the standpoint of its own interests, and you've yet to explain how this is so.


Yes you did.

In my original post, having suggested that this might be an effective means by which Kim Jong-un could consolidate power, I then stated that "[international incidents] also give the bureaucracy as a whole a means of hiding their own class interests...". If I thought that Kim Jong-un's particular interests were the only determining factor, I wouldn't have said this.


The US does set their defense policy.

It's not enough to assert this, you need to provide evidence.


However, I don't think that anybody was seriously questioning his mental health.

Crazy is often used colloquially, even (especially, maybe!) in political discussion, but in this case the poster did end up saying that they also thought that the North Korean leadership might be actually mentally ill - they stated that "literal application of the term does have some merit if you choose to take it in that direction" - and even if insane is taken in the looser sense of irrational, I don't see how that's an accurate description in this instance, because the North Korean ruling class is actually a highly skillful defender of its own class interests, and very rational in that sense - which is really the only sense worth considering.


Central to the Trotskyist analysis is the idea that the bureaucracy is not a class.

The Trotskyist tradition is broader than orthodoxy. I'm not really interested in debating this point, however. Think what you will.

[The Vegan Marxist]

This report is stating that the DPRK is willing to strike again if anymore provocations are to occur:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2010/s3075624.htm

[Rusty Shackleford]

KCNA just released an objection to the reiteration of US support for ROK and also objected to the USS George Washington being deployed off the western coast.

[Kiev Communard]

The North Korean government most likely tries to show its military capacity to its Southern opponents. However, I stringly doubt they would be much impressed - in fact, the consequences of these attacks shall definitely be more detrimental to the North than to the South.

[IndependentCitizen]

With the US increasing military presence, can we rely on China to defuse the situation?

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I think you miss the point, though, the reason I brought up the Labour Party was in response to your view that the North Korean leadership does not actually believe itself to be socialist, in which case the only explanation for its discourses would be that the whole of the bureaucracy is conscious of its class interests and has a degree of collective agency that allows it to cynically manipulate socialism as a means of social and political control, whilst being aware of its privileged and exploitative position

I don't see how someone could possibly write so many contradictory statements right after each other and not be trolling.


Of course, but this doesn't show that the North Korean bureaucracy doesn't skillfully use brinkmanship as a way of rationally pursuing its own class interests or that they haven't also historically backed down when faced with a real prospect of conflict, what it shows is that there's a possibility that war might break out "accidentally", so to speak.


I don't see how that's an accurate description in this instance, because the North Korean ruling class is actually a highly skillful defender of its own class interests, and very rational in that sense - which is really the only sense worth considering.


It's a highly skilled defender of it's own class interests and yet you dispute that it is even conscious of these interests.

[Rusty Shackleford]

With the US increasing military presence, can we rely on China to defuse the situation?



a former PLA general stated china will not respond positively to the USS George Washington being in the area, and said it may actually make things worse.

ive been through so many articles though and i forget which one it was :unsure: i apolgize for not citing it.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I seriously doubt China will get involved unless they're put into a position where they have to. Granted, I still see China as a worker's state, but they're more about business & bilateral relations, than they are towards militancy.

[Antifa94]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/24/us-south-korea-military-exercises

They found two dead civilians, and the naval exercises this weekend will probably provoke more violence

[Rafiq]

Nothing will happen. This will all be solved diplomatically.

Then good.

War isn't something we should hope for.

[Wanted Man]

There was an article in the free paper "De Pers" today about this matter, with one section that I've translated and which people should bear in mind before making up their judgements:


In Zuid-Korea draait de propagandamachine op volle toeren om alle schuld op Noord-Korea te schuiven. Net als in maart, toen het Zuid-Koreaanse oorlogsschip Cheonan zonk in dezelfde wateren. Ook toen wees Seoul direct naar Pyongyang, maar uit een officieel Zuid-Koreaans rapport bleek later dat er geen bewijs is voor Noord-Koreaanse betrokkenheid, dat de Zuid-Koreaanse militairen en het ministerie van Defensie het incident hebben gemanipuleerd en dat de Zuid-Koreaanse opperbevelhebber stomdronken was op het moment dat de Cheonan zonk.

De Zuid-Koreaanse president Lee Myung-bak blijft stug vasthouden aan de eerste versie. Hij is een havik die de door zijn voorgangers gesloten overeenkomsten met Noord-Korea negeert en anti-Noord-Koreaans sentiment in zijn land opstookt. Tegelijkertijd heeft Lee de banden met de VS sterk aangehaald. Zijn land heeft daarvan vooral op economisch gebied veel profijt en dat kan de impopulaire Lee goed gebruiken.


In South Korea, the propaganda machine is in full gear to pass all of the blame to North Korea. Just like in March, when the South Korean warship Cheonan sank in these same waters, when Seoul also immediately pointed at Pyongyang. But it later turned out in an official South Korean report that there is no proof for North Korean involvement, that the South Korean military and Defence Ministry manipulated the incident, and that the South Korean commander in chief was completely drunk while the Cheonan sank.

The South Korean president Lee Myung-bak stubbornly adheres to the first version. He is a hawk who ignores the agreements his predecessors made with North Korea and whips up anti-North Korean sentiment in his country. at the same time, Lee strongly improved relations with the US. This has given his country a lot of economic profit in particular, which the unpopular Lee can use.

Source: http://www.depers.nl/buitenland/526443/Propagandamachine-draait-volop.html

In other words, propaganda plays a major part in the dispute. I would add to this that the South Korean version of events tends to be taken as gospel truth in our own media, while the North Korean version is quoted as an exotic peculiarity at best.

[The Vegan Marxist]

^Despite the fact that North Korea's word is actually accepted & agreed upon by the South as well. Though, our media doesn't like getting that deep into an investigation, obviously.

[IndependentCitizen]

a former PLA general stated china will not respond positively to the USS George Washington being in the area, and said it may actually make things worse.

ive been through so many articles though and i forget which one it was :unsure: i apolgize for not citing it.

It's alright for not citing it ;) It does seem possible. We shall see, but I sure as hell hope China cools things down for the innocent peoples sake.

[The Vegan Marxist]

^Speaking of China. There's an interesting article written by the Christian Science Monitor (lol, the irony in that name), which it seems to point out that not only are both SKorea and the US provoking the DPRK, but clearly the US are provoking China now, going against their wishes as well:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2010/1124/Obama-uses-gunboat-diplomacy-with-North-Korea-and-China

[penguinfoot]

It's a highly skilled defender of it's own class interests and yet you dispute that it is even conscious of these interests.

There's absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever, I would advise that you gain a better understanding of what logical contradictions entail. It is entirely consistent to say that a ruling class is not aware of its own class interests in a straightforward way and perceives itself as pursuing a universal interest at the same time as saying that its actions actually lead to its own interests being protected in a highly effective way. The main alternative is to assume that the whole of the North Korean bureaucracy is complicit in a huge conspiracy whereby it collectively realizes itself to be an exploitative ruling class and collectively and cynically uses socialist discourse simply to "trick" the whole of the North Korean working class into passive consent, if not vigorous support for its own policies. It is, in any context, logically speaking, not necessary for some entity or individual to be aware of having distinct interests and what those interests involve in order for its actions to serve those interests.

[IndependentCitizen]

^Speaking of China. There's an interesting article written by the Christian Science Monitor (lol, the irony in that name), which it seems to point out that not only are both SKorea and the US provoking the DPRK, but clearly the US are provoking China now, going against their wishes as well:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2010/1124/Obama-uses-gunboat-diplomacy-with-North-Korea-and-China

Thanks for the link, TVM, I'll read that now. And to be honest, I think the CSM is making sense, let's hope China makes the right step, avoids war, makes the U.S back down, and then give us all a pint.

[t.shonku]

North Korea is a victim of US economic,phychological and diplomatic warfare.And the shameless Western media is playing its part in it.US is a two faced nation which blames North Korea for it’s missile and nuclear projects but and on the other hand secretly supports Israel in building nukes (refer Dimona Project).The shameless western leaders justifies this act as “Israel has the right to defend itself ”.The Western media potrays North Kores as a rouge state, yet Isreal is the one who kills so many Arabs mostly women and children with phosphorus bombs yet Israel is not a rouge state because it’s “holy land”.They accuse North Korean leader of being a dictator but in reality Bush is the one who with his patriot act invaded privacy of so many citizen, he used death squads to kill Iraqis civilians, he imprisoned so many in inhumane condition in Guntanamo,used brute police force against American activist.
My saying is that North Korea lives in a bad neibhourhood surrounded by hostile forces,thus it has the right to posses nuke for its defence there is nothing bad about it.



View this interesting vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O33sfN00oDk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91XRs2026A0&feature=related

[willo1945]

First saw this at 'supaswap-news.com' some more posturing by NK, I do sometimes wonder what their agenda is???

[Crux]

My saying is that North Korea lives in a bad neibhourhood surrounded by hostile forces,thus it has the right to posses nuke for its defence there is nothing bad about it.
Really?

[DDR]

Don't worry people, DPRK is not alone, someone in the US is speaking about that the US should support NK. Guess who? Our glorious camarade Sarah Palin!

http://www.oliverwillis.com/2010/11/24/audio-sarah-palin-we-gotta-stand-north-korean-allies/

I knew it, she is one of us, none can be so moronic not doing it on pourporse.

Sorry for this post but I wanted to share my laugs with you all.

[NKVD]

Don't worry people, DPRK is not alone, someone in the US is speaking about that the US should support NK. Guess who? Our glorious camarade Sarah Palin!

I knew it, she is one of us, none can be so moronic not doing it on pourporse.

Sorry for this post but I wanted to share my laugs with you all.

ROFL. :laugh:

[Palingenisis]

Really?

If the Imperialists have the nuclear bomb its vital for Socialists to have it aswell....The world is a safer and better place for the fact that the DPRK is packing nukes!!!!

[Leonid Brozhnev]

RoK Defence minister has resigned

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11838750


In future, the South would implement different levels of response, depending on whether the North attacked military or civilian targets, a presidential spokesman said.

A senior government official told the BBC that Seoul wanted to be more flexible in order to keep the North Koreans guessing as to their response.

The South Korean broadcaster, KBS, said the new rules called for the South to fire back "with shots two to three times more powerful than the enemy artillery".

Poke the North harder, they're not angry enough!

[Xuix]

If the Imperialists have the nuclear bomb its vital for Socialists to have it aswell....The world is a safer and better place for the fact that the DPRK is packing nukes!!!!


Le fuck? I think its better if no one has nukes. But that's just me. I see fools on all sides. It would be ridiculous to think that North korea is not doing anything wrong in this case. South korea obviously hasn't helped things either, and the U.S is the same as it has always been. But we can't deny what North korea has done to it's own fucking people. Hell, why should we support NK? They aren't even really communist.

[Rusty Shackleford]

(Thank Saorsa for this)
O33sfN00oDk


The ROK is sending troops to the islands as well.

[Rotfront]

If the Imperialists have the nuclear bomb its vital for Socialists to have it aswell....The world is a safer and better place for the fact that the DPRK is packing nukes!!!!

I hope you aren't serious. The DPRK is not even a socialist country and this "Juche" has nothing to do with marxism.

[RED DAVE]

North Korea has nothing to fear: It has a new ally (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/356918/sarah_palin_tells_beck_we_must_%E2%80%9Cstand_with _our_north_korean_allies%E2%80%9D/#paragraph4)!

RED DAVE

[Rusty Shackleford]

Defense minister resigned, GNP/Lee reinforces islands and changes retaliation conditions.

im guessing the defense minister was probably asked to resign.

NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/world/asia/26korea.html)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/11/26/world/26koreaspan-cnd/26koreaspan-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

SEOUL, South Korea — Responding to growing public criticism after Tuesday’s deadly attack, President Lee Myung-bak (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/lee_myung_bak/index.html?inline=nyt-per) accepted the resignation Thursday of his defense minister and announced changes in the military’s rules of engagement to make it easier for the South Korean military to strike back with greater force, especially if civilians are threatened. The government also announced plans to increase the number of troops and heavy weapons on Yeonpyeong Island, where two marines and two civilians died Tuesday in an artillery fusillade from the North.
But Mr. Lee, who came to office two years ago vowing to get tough with the North, has little maneuvering room in formulating a response. While the attack appears to have pushed anti-North Korean sentiment here to its highest level in years, there is little public support for taking military action against the North that might lead to an escalation of hostilities.
“North Korea (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/northkorea/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) has nothing to lose, while we have everything to lose,” said Kang Won-taek, a professor of politics at Seoul National University. “Lee Myung-bak has no choice but to soften his tone to keep this country peaceful. It is not an appealing choice, but it is the only realistic choice.”
The South’s powerful neighbor is also counseling restraint. The Chinese prime minister, Wen Jiabao (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/w/wen_jiabao/index.html?inline=nyt-per), said on Thursday that Beijing opposed any provocative military behavior by either side on the Korean peninsula, Xinhua, the state news agency, reported.
On Thursday, while North Korea warned through its official news agency of further military retaliation if provoked by South Korea (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/southkorea/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), Mr. Lee said only, “We should not drop our guard in preparation for the possibility of another provocation by North Korea,” according to his chief spokesman, Hong Sang-pyo. “A provocation like this can recur any time.”
The changes in the rules of engagement were similarly restrained. South Korean defenses on its five coastal islands in the Yellow Sea had been set up primarily to guard against possible amphibious landings by North Korean troops. Critics said Thursday that the military had not anticipated the possibility of an attack by North Korean artillery batteries, which are reportedly in caves along the North’s coastline.
“Now an artillery battle has become the new threat, so we’re reassessing the need to strengthen defenses,” Mr. Lee told lawmakers. The new measures he outlined include doubling the number of howitzers and upgrading other weaponry.
New rules of engagement will be based on whether military or civilian sites are the targets, said Mr. Hong, the presidential spokesman, adding that the move was to “change the paradigm of responding to North Korea’s provocations.”
This week’s artillery attack was not the first time Mr. Lee has come under criticism for sitting on his hands in the face of a deadly provocation by the North. Two years ago, when a South Korean tourist was shot by a sentry at a North Korean mountain resort, his government’s response amounted to a slap on the wrist: suspending tours to the resort and barring South Korean civic groups from visiting the North.
But the clearest case was Mr. Lee’s response in March to the North’s sinking of the South Korean warship Cheonan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/cheonan_ship/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), which killed 46 sailors.
Mr. Lee at first seemed to stall by waiting for the results of an international investigation, which took two months to conclude the ship had been sunk by a North Korean torpedo. When Mr. Lee responded, it was with relatively mild measures like reducing the South’s already minuscule trade with the North, resuming the South’s cold war-era propaganda speakers along the demilitarized zone and demanding an apology. And he even backed off some of those: the speakers have yet to be turned on after North Korea threatened to shoot at them, and he dropped the apology demand as a precondition for talks.
Mr. Lee was widely blamed in South Korea for having provoked the Cheonan incident by ending unconditional aid at the start of his presidency.
“Before, the public saw him as too hard, and now they see him as too soft,” said Yoo Ho-yeol, a professor of North Korean studies at Korea University in Seoul.
Despite public pressure to do more, Mr. Lee does not have many options for using less lethal forms of pressure on the North, whether diplomatic or economic. North Korea’s impoverished Stalinist state has already weathered years of economic sanctions and diplomatic isolation. In fact, the tough economic conditions appear only to give the North additional motivation for continuing its dangerous brinkmanship, to extract aid as it faces a winter of food and fuel shortages. Analysts say the North is also using the recent provocations to burnish the military credentials of the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/_kim_jong_il/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s youngest son and heir apparent, Kim Jong-un (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/kim_jongun/index.html?inline=nyt-per).
Analysts say making sanctions effective would require greater support from China, North Korea’s traditional protector, which has so far been reluctant to tighten the screws on the North’s already decrepit economy. In recent days, Mr. Lee and President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) have agreed to make new appeals to Chinese leaders to put more pressure on the North Korean dictator, but analysts say they are not optimistic that the Chinese will comply.
Still, South Korean officials said they will urge China to act more responsibly by pressuring the North to end its attacks. They also said they will ask Beijing to more closely monitor trade with North Korea by Chinese merchants, which they said has been a route for the North to bypass international economic sanctions.
Analysts say that Mr. Lee and his advisers appear to have concluded that a less confrontational stance is the only way to persuade North Korea to end its provocations. A few analysts speculated that Mr. Lee might eventually end up not far from his liberal predecessors like former President Roh Moo-hyun (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/roh_moo_hyun/index.html?inline=nyt-per), who used economic aid to appease the North and reduce tensions on the peninsula.
“Anyone would conclude that the peaceful approach is best to reverse the situation,” said Moon Jung-in, a politics professor at Yonsei University in Seoul and a former adviser in the Roh administration. “A hard-line approach is not a real option.”

[The Vegan Marxist]

STOP WAR PROVOCATIONS AGAINST PEOPLE’S KOREA — KNOW THE FACTS!

SIGN THE ONLINE PETITION (http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk) to the Obama Administration and South Korean Govt. NOW!

PLAN PROTESTS IN THE DAYS AHEAD TO COUNTER THE GROWING WAR THREAT

Tell the Obama Administration and the south Korean Government you want the U.S./south Korean war maneuvers and provocations against the DPRK stopped immediately, the removal of south Korean and U.S. war ships including the U.S. aircraft carrier George Washington, an end to the U.S. sponsored sanctions against the DPRK, the signing of a peace treaty NOW to end the state of war that has existed since the Korean war, and the immediate withdrawal of the 30,000 U.S. troops that still occupy south Korea, so that the Korean people can freely decide their own destiny.

THESE ARE THE UNDISPUTED FACTS: On Nov. 23, the government of South Korea mobilized 70,000 troops for a week of military maneuvers just off the border of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. The DPRK said that these military maneuvers simulated an invasion of the north.

The military deployment was provocatively held right off the sea borderline between the north and the south. This is an area considered to be disputed territory.

On Nov 23, at 1:00 p.m., South Korean forces fired many shells into waters right off the DPRK. This is an area that the north has a longstanding claim to be within its territory. This claim had been accepted by prior south Korean governments.

An hour and a half later, the DPRK retaliated to what it saw as an attack on its territory by firing shells at the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong.

And now the U.S. has announced plans to send the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS George Washington and its battle group including war ships, destroyers and hundreds of fighter jets back into the area to participate in new war maneuver provocations.

It is urgent that all who stand for peace and justice make plans now for immediate protest actions in the days ahead.

The U.S. military has been involved in all the war maneuvers by South Korea, going back to the 1950-53 war, and has occupied South Korea since the end of World War II.

Why doesn’t the media ask why the U.S. was orchestrating a massive military deployment of troops, ships and aircraft right on the border of the DPRK?

The provocation here clearly comes from the U.S. government and the right-wing south Korean regime, not the DPRK. The regime of Lee Myung-bak has undone earlier moves that improved relations between the two halves of the Korean nation and has brought increased confrontation.

It can never be forgotten that U.S. imperialism waged a horrendous war against the Korean Revolution from 1950 to 1953, one that resulted in millions of deaths and total devastation of the Korean Peninsula.

For there to be peace on the Korean Peninsula, the U.S. should end its support of expansionist, right-wing forces in the south, sign a peace treaty with the north (a state of war still exists after 57 years!) and withdraw its troops so the Korean people can decide their own destiny.

Join us in the days ahead in taking to the streets to protest these U.S. war threats and sanctions that have created a powder keg in Asia. End the military occupation of South Korea! Sign a peace treaty and bring the troops home!

SIGN ONLINE AT http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk NOW!

[The Vegan Marxist]

Artillery shots can be heard coming from the DRPK. Looks like the North is getting ready as well. If the South and US can form their drills, the North will too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/world/asia/27korea.html

[punisa]

Give em' hell Kim.
This is a huge provocation, US and S.Korea should have canceled their military drill after being warned.
I feel this might escalate, even today.

[The Vegan Marxist]

And they say that South Korea's a democracy, and the North's the police state. HAH! So much for that fucking theory!

Police probing Internet cafe praising North Korea
By Kang Shin-who
November 26, 2010

More alert than ever before, police have began investigating an Internet cafe for praising North Korea after the communist state committed a ruthless attack by shelling Yeonpyeong Island.

A number of compliments to North Korea were posted on the online community named “Cyber headquarters for people’s defense,” on Naver, the country’s No. 1 portal site. Members of the community have immediately drawn huge criticism online. A lot of angered netizens attacked the community with postings denouncing the cafe members. In response, the cafe manager removed all the critical postings.

According to the National Police Agency, the site is under investigation for violating the National Security Law, which prohibits praising or sympathizing with the communist state.

The cafe manager, “Hwang Gil-gyeong,” wrote, “The commander Kim Jung-un is doing it. You need wisdom to be always be alert and prepared,” under the title of “Everybody, you were very nervous yesterday?”

The message was echoed by other postings written by the online community members. One of them reads, “The general in command will proceed without the slightest glitch in full accordance with the North’s timeline.” Another posting said, “Do not mind the lives of hostages. We are confident that you will achieve your great feat.”

Police will punish Internet community members who wrote postings praising North Korea with the purpose of benefiting the North. A police officer said the Internet cafe was first operated on another portal, Daum, and closed in 2002, but reopened in 2007 at the current portal site. It has about 6,500 members. One of the members is in his 40s and was indicted last month on charges of spreading pro-North Korea propaganda.

North Korea’s attack on the island, Tuesday, the first of its kind targeting civilians since the Korean War, killed two marines and two civilians and wounded 18 others. The Korean War ended in 1953 in a truce, without a peace treaty and the two Koreas are still technically at war.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/11/113_77038.html

[progressive_lefty]

I don't have much sympathy for the North, the South will suffer deeply out of any war. It scares me, because I have a lot of Korean friends, and any war will lead to massive loss of life for the South. I hope they have built large bunkers for their civillian population. Korean history is quite depressing, and like they say, never ever bring up Korean history with a Korean, because they obviously won't have anything nice to say about the last 200 to 300 years. Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.

I obivously have a differing opinion to other on this board. North Korea is a joke, and not a symbol of any true communist Government.

[bots]

I don't have much sympathy for the North, the South will suffer deeply out of any war. It scares me, because I have a lot of Korean friends, and any war will lead to massive loss of life for the South. I hope they have built large bunkers for their civillian population. Korean history is quite depressing, and like they say, never ever bring up Korean history with a Korean, because they obviously won't have anything nice to say about the last 200 to 300 years. Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.

I obivously have a differing opinion to other on this board. North Korea is a joke, and not a symbol of any true communist Government.

Uh oh...

[Wanted Man]

South Korean media having a little fun with the pictures:

http://absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/shop1.jpg

http://absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/shop2.jpg

http://www.seoprise.com/board/view.php?uid=215176&table=seoprise_12

[Wanted Man]

I don't have much sympathy for the North, the South will suffer deeply out of any war. It scares me, because I have a lot of Korean friends, and any war will lead to massive loss of life for the South.

(...)

Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.

So basically, you are worried about the lives of your South Korean friends, but you still hope for a war which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides. Weird.

[William Howe]

Am I the only one hoping the DPRNK will deliver a stinging defeat to the Imperialist Yankees?

No offense at all to military families and the like, but, for some reason, if NK beat them, I'd be oddly happy.

[Rafiq]

Damn, every time the media sais "Communist State" it sends propaganda into my mind, and sometimes have to fight it.

I fucking hate propaganda

[ckaihatsu]

On 11/25/10, International Action Center <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> International Action Center - iacenter.org <http://www.iacenter.org>
>
> *About the IAC <http://iacenter.org/about/> | Donate
> <http://iacenter.org/donate/> | IAC Books & Resources
> <http://iacenter.org/books_resources/> | Contact Us
> <http://iacenter.org/comments/>**| Sign the Petition!
> <http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk>*
>
>
> *STOP THE WAR PROVOCATIONS AND ATTACKS ON THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES
> REPUBLIC OF KOREA NOW!
> KNOW THE UNDISPUTED FACTS! *
>
> *SIGN THE ONLINE PETITION to the Obama Administration and s. Korean Govt.
> at http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk
> <http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk> NOW!*
>
> *PLAN PROTESTS IN THE DAYS AHEAD TO COUNTER THE GROWING WAR THREAT*
>
> Tell the Obama Administration and the south Korean Government you want
> the U.S./south Korean war maneuvers and provocations against the DPRK
> stopped immediately, the removal of south Korean and U.S. war ships
> including the U.S. aircraft carrier George Washington, an end to the
> U.S. sponsored sanctions against the DPRK, the signing of a peace treaty
> NOW to end the state of war that has existed since the Korean war, and
> the immediate withdrawal of the 30,000 U.S. troops that still occupy
> south Korea, so that the Korean people can freely decide their own destiny.
>
> *THESE ARE THE UNDISPUTED FACTS:* On Nov. 23, the government of South
> Korea mobilized 70,000 troops for a week of military maneuvers just off
> the border of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. The DPRK said
> that these military maneuvers simulated an invasion of the north.
>
> The military deployment was provocatively held right off the sea
> borderline between the north and the south. This is an area considered
> to be disputed territory.
>
> On Nov 23, at 1:00 p.m., South Korean forces fired many shells into
> waters right off the DPRK. This is an area that the north has a
> longstanding claim to be within its territory. This claim had been
> accepted by prior south Korean governments.
>
> An hour and a half later, the DPRK retaliated to what it saw as an
> attack on its territory by firing shells at the South Korean island of
> Yeonpyeong.
>
> And now the U.S. has announced plans to send the nuclear-powered
> aircraft carrier USS George Washington and its battle group including
> war ships, destroyers and hundreds of fighter jets back into the area to
> participate in new war maneuver provocations.
>
> *It is urgent that all who stand for peace and justice make plans now
> for immediate protest actions in the days ahead.*
>
> The U.S. military has been involved in all the war maneuvers by South
> Korea, going back to the 1950-53 war, and has occupied South Korea since
> the end of World War II.
>
> Why doesn't the media ask why the U.S. was orchestrating a massive
> military deployment of troops, ships and aircraft right on the border of
> the DPRK?
>
> The provocation here clearly comes from the U.S. government and the
> right-wing south Korean regime, not the DPRK. The regime of Lee
> Myung-bak has undone earlier moves that improved relations between the
> two halves of the Korean nation and has brought increased confrontation.
>
> It can never be forgotten that U.S. imperialism waged a horrendous war
> against the Korean Revolution from 1950 to 1953, one that resulted in
> millions of deaths and total devastation of the Korean Peninsula.
>
> For there to be peace on the Korean Peninsula, the U.S. should end its
> support of expansionist, right-wing forces in the south, sign a peace
> treaty with the north (a state of war still exists after 57 years!) and
> withdraw its troops so the Korean people can decide their own destiny.
>
> Join us in the days ahead in taking to the streets to protest these U.S.
> war threats and sanctions that have created a powder keg in Asia. End
> the military occupation of South Korea! Sign a peace treaty and bring
> the troops home!
>
> *SIGN ONLINE AT http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk NOW!*
> *
> SAMPLE PETITION TEXT:*
>
> To: President Barack Obama, President Lee Myung-bak, Secretary of State
> Hillary Clinton
>
> CC: U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, U.N. member delegations, U.S.
> Congressional leaders, members of the media.
>
> * Stop the U.S./South Korean War maneuvers and provocations against
> the DPRK (north Korea) immediately!
>
> * Remove the south Korean and U.S. war ships! DO NOT SEND ADDITIONAL
> U.S WARSHIPS AND PLANES INCLUDING THE U.S. AIRCRAFT CARRIER GEORGE
> WASHINGTON!
>
> * End the U.S. sponsored sanctions against the DPRK!
>
> * Sign a peace treaty NOW to end the state of war that has existed
> for 57 years since the Korean war!
>
> * Withdraw all of the 30,000 U.S. troops that still occupy south
> Korea, so that the Korean people can freely decide their own destiny.
>
> It is an undisputed fact that on Nov. 23, the government of South Korea
> mobilized 70,000 troops for a week of military maneuvers just off the
> border of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. The DPRK said that
> these military maneuvers simulated an invasion of the north.
>
> On Nov 23, at 1:00 p.m., South Korean forces fired many shells into
> waters right off the DPRK. This is an area that the north has a
> longstanding claim to be within its territory. This claim had been
> accepted by prior south Korean governments.
>
> An hour and a half later, the DPRK retaliated to what it saw as an
> attack on its territory by firing shells at the South Korean island of
> Yeonpyeong.
>
> And now the U.S. has announced plans to send the nuclear-powered
> aircraft carrier USS George Washington and its battle group including
> war ships, destroyers and hundreds of fighter jets back into the area to
> participate in new war maneuver provocations.
>
> The U.S. military has been involved in all the war maneuvers by South
> Korea, going back to the 1950-53 war, and has occupied South Korea since
> the end of World War II. AND THE WAR DANGER IS GROWING!
>
> Clearly the military provocation is from the U.S. government and the
> south Korean government of President Lee Myung-bak.
>
> For there to be peace on the Korean Peninsula, the U.S. must withdraw
> its troops so the Korean people can decide their own destiny.
>
> Sincerely,
> /(Your signature appended here)/
>
> *SIGN ONLINE AT http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk NOW!*
> **
>
> *About the IAC <http://iacenter.org/about/> | Donate
> <http://iacenter.org/donate/> | IAC Books & Resources
> <http://iacenter.org/books_resources/> | Contact Us
> <http://iacenter.org/comments/>**| Sign the Petition!
> <http://www.iacenter.org/korea/stopattackondprk>*
>
> *International Action Center
> c/o Solidarity Center
> 55 W 17th St Suite 5C
> New York, NY 10011
> 212-633-6646
> [email protected]
> www.iacenter.org
> *
> **
>
>
>

[Morgenstern]

We've had so many close calls before this could mean anything. But if a war does occur we will see if North Korea has nukes. North Korea has nothing to lose but everything to gain.

[Rafiq]

But America also has nukes, and they wouldn't think twice about using them.

The collapse of the USSR was probably one of the biggest tragedy's in history.

If the USSR still existed, America wouldn't be going around doing whatever the fuck it wants, threatening anyone who opposes them..

Sometimes I wish the USSR would just plop out with a big sign saying "NOT ON MY WATCH" and a middle finger pointing at the US soldiers on the South Korean Border

[Rusty Shackleford]

apparently North Korean workers in Russia rushed home after the artillery fire broke out. of course, this says they answered some "unspoken call to protect their dictator" as if Kim Jong-Il have a goat's horn to call them with from atop a snowy peak.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20101126/161510061.html

North Korean citizens working in Russia's Far East rushed home after the recent military skirmish between North and South Korea, Russian popular daily Moskovsky Komsomolets said on Friday.
North Korea opened artillery fire on the South's Yeonpyeong Island in the Yellow Sea Tuesday, killing at least two South Korean marines and two civilians. Sixteen others were injured, along with three civilians. The South retaliated and warned of further strikes. The North later accused South Korea of attacking first.
"As soon as the message about rising tensions between both countries appeared, North Koreans took it as an unspoken call to stand up and protect their dictator Kim Jong-il," Moskovsky Komsomolets cited Russian news agency VladNews as saying.
North Koreans, suffering from severe food shortages at home, often put their lives at risk to cross the short Russian-North Korean border in order to earn some money in outdoor markets and construction sites and buy food for malnourished relatives.
Their disappearance has already affected the Russian Far East labor market, since the North Koreans are the lowest paid employees there, Moskovsky Komsomolets said.
In the 1990s, North Korea suffered from one of the gravest famines in the 20th century. At least one million people died of hunger.
"Hordes of malnourished children wander across the country. If policemen detain them, they are sent to overcrowded asylums where they die," the daily quoted a spokesman for the Open Doors human rights organization as saying.
Until recently, North Korea was almost totally dependent on humanitarian aid from South Korea, China and the World Food Program, the main food aid supplier to North Korea.
Recently, donors have been reluctant to render aid to North Korea because of restrictions on aid workers and the international condemnation of its nuclear program.
MOSCOW, November 26 (RIA Novosti)

[Rafiq]

:laugh: at imagining Kim Jong Il with a goats horn calling out to the North Koreans

[Chimurenga.]

Russia is so goddamn on the fence, it's ridiculous.

[maskerade]

I really hope a war DOESN'T break out...some posters in this thread scare me.

[Robocommie]

as if Kim Jong-Il have a goat's horn to call them with from atop a snowy peak.

"The beacon of Amon Dîn is lit! North Korea calls for aid!"
"...and Rohan will answer!"

[Spawn of Stalin]

Dude that's two Tolkien references in two days, you are seriously a nerd.:D

[Rusty Shackleford]

DPRK condemns upcoming drills, declares it is pushing the region to the brink of war.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/North-Korea-US-South-Korean-Exercises-Push-Peninsula-to-Brink-of-War-110789879.html


North Korea Condemns US - South Korean Naval Exercises Chris Simkins 26 November 2010

North Korea is accusing the United States and South Korea of pushing the Korean peninsula to the brink of war if the two countries go ahead with planned military exercises this week. Tensions in the region remain high on Friday as sounds of artillery fire were heard in the North near the South Korean island that came under a deadly artillery attack from North Korea on Tuesday.

Just days after North Korea's artillery attack on South Korea's Yeonpyeong island, more artillery shell fire was heard coming from North Korea on Friday. A spokesman for the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff said no projectiles landed on South Korean territory. Tensions remain high as the top U.S. commander in South, Korea General Walter Sharp, visited the island to survey the damage.

"What I've seen here physically North Korea attacked this island, which is a clear violation of the armistice agreement," said General Sharp.
South Korea has beefed up its military forces on the island near the Yellow Sea border with North Korea. The move follows last Tuesday's attack on Yeonpyeong. North Korea fired about 100 artillery shells killing two South Korean marines, two civilians and wounding at least 18 other in the hour-long battle. South Korea retaliated by firing 80 artillery shells at the North Korean coastal artillery that launched the attack. Pyongyang said the attack was a response to what it called a provocative South Korean military drill in which shells were fired from the island. Since then most of the island's 1,600 residents have fled for safety on the mainland.


Meanwhile, North Korea warned that a planned U.S.-South Korean naval exercises this week would push the Korean peninsula to the brink of war. In Seoul, Marzuki Darusman, the U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in North Korea, called for dialogue, not an escalation in military tensions.


US says they are not being provocative but the drills are directed at the DPRK. contradiction much?
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/1126/With-US-South-Korea-war-games-a-signal-to-North-Korea

The Pentagon is quick to point out that the naval exercises are “defensive in nature” and that similar events have been held frequently. But US commanders also acknowledge that this joint exercise is a pointed reminder to the North (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2010/1124/USS-George-Washington-What-message-does-it-send-to-North-Korea) of US military strength and America's allegiance with South Korea. The US announced the exercises after the artillery barrage of Yeonpyeong, home to South Korean military bases and a small civilian population.
“While planned well before [Tuesday’s] unprovoked artillery attack, [the joint exercise] demonstrates the strength” of the US-South Korean alliance, according to a statement released Wednesday by the US Navy’s Seventh Fleet.

[IndependentCitizen]

I really want to hear what China has to say, I'm quite surprised they've remained this quiet.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I really want to hear what China has to say, I'm quite surprised they've remained this quiet.
China meets with DPRK ambassador and only calls the US.
that may be significant or not. if it is of any importance, it shows the PRC is willing to meet face to face with the DPRK over the imperialists.


but, Chinese news papers blamed the DPRK. What is bolded about that is disappointing. but, this is also from a western news source where i got this. ill look up china daily.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/27/3078142.htm?section=justin

China has been working to keep tensions between North and South Korea from escalating following a Northern artillery attack on the South on Tuesday.
China's foreign minister Yang Jiechi has met North Korea's ambassador and spoken on the phone to his US and South Korean counterparts.
Officials say China's priority is to avoid a recurrence of Tuesday's attack on Yeonpyeong island which killed four people.
Tomorrow the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS George Washington, with its 75 planes and crew of 6,000, will take part in massive naval war games.
North Korea has warned this will push the region to the brink of war and is threatening to launch fresh attacks if it is sufficiently provoked.
But it is playing a dangerous game. This week it killed four South Koreans in an artillery attack and in March it torpedoed a South Korean naval ship killing 46 sailors.
In what could be a crucial development, state-owned newspapers in China have blamed North Korea for this week's attack; one even editorialised that North Korea could be a country without a future.
The North may have gone too far this time. But if it keeps resorting to military strikes out of the blue it will eventually lead to a more brutal response from Seoul.
Adding nuclear weapons into the mix, the deadly standoff is well short of being resolved.
China has also voiced its displeasure at the participation of a United States aircraft carrier battle group in tomorrow's war games.
But South Korea and its American allies are keen to put on a show of strength.
The North yesterday started firing fresh volleys of artillery two days ahead of the war games, sending South Korean residents who remain on Yeonpyeong Island running to air raid shelters.
The sound of fresh rounds of artillery emanating from North Korea led to fears of a fresh attack.
But the South Korean Government has said that this seemed to be a training exercise and that no shells landed on its territory.
Tensions high

US commander in South Korea, General Walter Sharp, has called on North Korea to stop its attacks.
"What I've seen here is basically North Korea attacked this island, which is a clear violation of the armistice agreement," he said.
"We and the United Nations command will investigate this completely and will call on North Korea to stop any future attacks."
The hope is that Pyongyang's warning is just aggressive rhetoric from the North, but the South is bolstering its troop numbers in border regions just in case.
The South Korean government of Lee Myungbak has been criticised, even by some in its own party, for not responding to this week's artillery attack with enough force.
This is despite the fact that it fired 80 shells back across the border at the time. There has been no information about what damage this caused in the North.
South Korea's former defence minister Kim Yae-yong defended the decision not to call an airstrike on the North's artillery positions that fired on Yeonpyong, saying he did not want to risk starting a full-scale war.
He has now resigned, accepting full responsibility for what has been described as an inadequate response.
China Daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-11/26/content_11617502.htm)

BEIJING - Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi met with Ambassador of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) to China, and held phone conversation with his counterparts of the United States and the Republic of Korea (ROK) on Friday.

They exchanged views on issues including the situation of the Korean Peninsula, according to a statement released Friday night by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. China renewed its call on Thursday for all sides to exert restraint over escalating tension on the Korean Peninsula, as Seoul announced it will strengthen its military force on five islands close to the DPRK.
Meanwhile, the ROK defense minister resigned amid intense criticism of its military's response to the North's barrage on Tuesday.
Premier Wen Jiabao called on all sides to exert "maximum restraint", adding Beijing opposes military provocation in any form.
He said the resumption of the Six-Party Talks is essential to resolve the Korean Peninsula nuclear issue, according to a statement posted on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs' website on Thursday.



Also, the ANSWER Calition's statement on the events:
NO NEW KOREAN WAR! (http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/protest-against-new-korean-war.html)

[Rafiq]

Poor North Koreans, everyones ganging up on them.

Just imagine in your head if the Soviet Union still existed, Imagine what they would do, they would send troops to the border to protect the north.

Imagine how much greater it would be to have the power balanced tipped, I mean, of course I oppose all Imperialists and Superpowers, but I would give anything for the Soviet Union to come back, they would be the first to make sure the North is protected

[danyboy27]

Poor North Koreans, everyones ganging up on them.

Just imagine in your head if the Soviet Union still existed, Imagine what they would do, they would send troops to the border to protect the north.

Imagine how much greater it would be to have the power balanced tipped, I mean, of course I oppose all Imperialists and Superpowers, but I would give anything for the Soviet Union to come back, they would be the first to make sure the North is protected

you think the soviet union protected North korea and Cuba out of pure kindness? It was simply a set geopoliticals move from a superpower against another superpower, its had nothing to do with communism at all.

But, dont worry about an invasion of North korea, its not gonna happen anytime soon, and china will work it out, has usual.

The north korean elites will have what they want, and in return, no retaliation during the exercises.

Bottom line, the north korean people will still suffer, but not the elites, kinda like the south korea.

[The Vegan Marxist]

^I really can't take such "confidence" in assumptions at face-value. There's too many different contradictions being played here to say one is of absolute.

[Rafiq]

you think the soviet union protected North korea and Cuba out of pure kindness? It was simply a set geopoliticals move from a superpower against another superpower, its had nothing to do with communism at all.

But, dont worry about an invasion of North korea, its not gonna happen anytime soon, and china will work it out, has usual.

The north korean elites will have what they want, and in return, no retaliation during the exercises.

Bottom line, the north korean people will still suffer, but not the elites, kinda like the south korea.

No, the Soviets did it for strategic reasons, but still, they would at least be doing it.

[danyboy27]

^I really can't take such "confidence" in assumptions at face-value. There's too many different contradictions being played here to say one is of absolute.

what contradictions? This war would be bad for chinese and american buisness, its not gonna happen until it become profitable for one or both sides.

[danyboy27]

No, the Soviets did it for strategic reasons, but still, they would at least be doing it.

that what i said, geopolitical reason.

[Robocommie]

Dude that's two Tolkien references in two days, you are seriously a nerd.:D

Haha, wait, what was the first, I don't remember?

[progressive_lefty]

Originally Posted by progressive_lefty http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1936538#post1936538)
I don't have much sympathy for the North, the South will suffer deeply out of any war. It scares me, because I have a lot of Korean friends, and any war will lead to massive loss of life for the South.

(...)

Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.
So basically, you are worried about the lives of your South Korean friends, but you still hope for a war which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides. Weird.
Highlight where I said I want a war 'which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides'.

Give one example of how North Korea is a symbol of a sound communist country.

[Crux]

Highlight where I said I want a war 'which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides'.
Maybe here?


Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.

[Wanted Man]

Highlight where I said I want a war 'which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides'.

See above. Oh wait, I'm sure the war would be almost entirely bloodless, because the humane US Army uses only smart bombs that magically keep civvies from dying, and bunker busters that only hurt evil commies in bunkers. There will be no real bombings, just a bit of shock 'n awe that won't kill anyone. And if they occupy Korea, they won't torture anyone, just dunk a little water on their heads.

So yeah, never mind. You're right.


Give one example of how North Korea is a symbol of a sound communist country.

What does that have to do with anything? Prove to me that you don't have sex with animals. :rolleyes:

But I feel you, man. I'm such a pure communist that I support wars against all places that are not "a symbol of a sound communist country" (whatever the hell that may mean).

[Aurora]

This war would be bad for chinese and american buisness, its not gonna happen until it become profitable for one or both sides.
Why would it be bad for business? the war industry would make a tidy profit, the north korean market would be opened and both the north and south would need to be rebuilt.

[Sosa]

Why would it be bad for business? the war industry would make a tidy profit, the north korean market would be opened and both the north and south would need to be rebuilt.

I agree, if anything, both China and American Corps would profit from a war with N. Korea

[Rjevan]

Give one example of how North Korea is a symbol of a sound communist country.
I'm pretty sure nobody here claimed that the DPRK is communist and you can argue about it being socialist (I'd argue against) but that's not even the point. Hopefully you don't suggest it's ok if the USA (or anybody else) invades foreign countries as long as they aren't socialist? Right of self-determination only for "sound communist countries"?

It's also quite interesting that you think an US-South Korean victory "brings democracy" and even more the idea that US imperialism and its puppet South Korea winning results in less US but more Chinese influence in Korea (as if that was much better)...

[Rafiq]

Progressive lefty, there is no such thing as "An Ideal situation for war".

And there is no such thing as "The US bringing democracy"

[scarletghoul]

Reasons for war from an American perspective -

1. more profit for military industry
2. vast new markets opened up (especially valuable in a time of overproduction)
3. one less commie country in the world
4. powerful US client state bordering China and Russia

This is really worrying, I hope there's no war, but it wouldn't be surprising..:(

[Sosa]

I doubt the U.S. will be directly involved if there is a war. It would be extremely unpopular and any politician that suggests joining the war does so by risking their political career.

[scarletghoul]

I doubt the U.S. will be directly involved if there is a war. It would be extremely unpopular and any politician that suggests joining the war does so by risking their political career.
They have 10000s of troops in the country, theyre already involved. The portrayal of this as some conflict between 2 koreas is simply false, the US is a key component, and the ROK only exists because of them

[William Howe]

Poor North Koreans, everyones ganging up on them.

Just imagine in your head if the Soviet Union still existed, Imagine what they would do, they would send troops to the border to protect the north.

Imagine how much greater it would be to have the power balanced tipped, I mean, of course I oppose all Imperialists and Superpowers, but I would give anything for the Soviet Union to come back, they would be the first to make sure the North is protected

I'm hoping - nay, praying - China joins on the North's side in this.

[William Howe]

No, the Soviets did it for strategic reasons, but still, they would at least be doing it.

Exactly what he said before you, strategic.

The Soviet Union was far from true communism, ever since the beginning of Stalin's reign the country spiralled into corrupt beurocraticism. The Soviet Union abandoned the goal of global revolution and started the idea of a global empire.

They helped NK and Cuba for mainly one reason: attack. With NK keeping Communist China, who recently was getting into feuds with the Soviets, and Cuba keeping the US scared shiteless on its end, the Soviets masterfully took care of two theatres of war.

[Sosa]

They have 10000s of troops in the country, theyre already involved. The portrayal of this as some conflict between 2 koreas is simply false, the US is a key component, and the ROK only exists because of them

Yes, but I doubt that those troops would be engaged in the front line, they would most likely be there for support and such. The U.S. is very much involved, I meant that they wouldn't be sending troops there or actively declaring war with NK.

[danyboy27]

Why would it be bad for business? the war industry would make a tidy profit, the north korean market would be opened and both the north and south would need to be rebuilt.

nickel and dimes bro, the investement and profit made out of this conflict would be small change compared to the economical losses created by it.

China dosnt need a million north korean refugee to stirr up internal disorder, and the us dosnt need a more streched out military forces. Plus the us is politicly fucked these day, the last thing washington need is a bigger political shitstorm.

[Antifa94]

Apparently there is rioting in seoul right now

[Rafiq]

Exactly what he said before you, strategic.

The Soviet Union was far from true communism, ever since the beginning of Stalin's reign the country spiralled into corrupt beurocraticism. The Soviet Union abandoned the goal of global revolution and started the idea of a global empire.

They helped NK and Cuba for mainly one reason: attack. With NK keeping Communist China, who recently was getting into feuds with the Soviets, and Cuba keeping the US scared shiteless on its end, the Soviets masterfully took care of two theatres of war.

China was never Communist either.

But I don't care for the reason the soviets were doing it, I just wanted them to do it.

[Nolan]

nickel and dimes bro, the investement and profit made out of this conflict would be small change compared to the economical losses created by it.

China dosnt need a million north korean refugee to stirr up internal disorder, and the us dosnt need a more streched out military forces. Plus the us is politicly fucked these day, the last thing washington need is a bigger political shitstorm.

Even so, the possibility of a war is very high, and the powers that be know this. This is why the media has been selling us anti-North propaganda very aggressively in the last year or so. Also keep in mind the destruction of North Korea has been on the West's to-do list for a very long time.

In the end, war is what got the U.S. out of the Great Depression. Perhaps what the U.S. needs now is fresh blood.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://nation.foxnews.com/sites/nation.foxnews.com/files/imagecache/dv1/636-carter-II.jpg

Jimmy Carter: North Korean Regime Deserves Our Respect
November 27, 2010

A media person walks at houses destroyed by North Korean shelling on the Yeonpyeong Island, South Korea, Friday, Nov. 26, 2010. North Korea warned Friday that planned U.S.-South Korean military drills are pushing the peninsula to the brink of war.

The North Korean regime attacked South Korea killing 2 Korean Marines and 2 civilians.
Thank goodness Jimmy Carter was there to defend them.
Via Verum Serum (http://www.verumserum.com/?p=19359) and The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112305808.html):


No one can completely understand the motivations of the North Koreans, but it is entirely possible that their recent revelation of their uranium enrichment centrifuges and Pyongyang’s shelling of a South Korean island Tuesday are designed to remind the world that they deserve respect in negotiations that will shape their future.

http://redantliberationarmy.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/jimmy-carter-north-korean-regime-deserves-our-respect/

[The Red Next Door]

http://nation.foxnews.com/sites/nation.foxnews.com/files/imagecache/dv1/636-carter-II.jpg

Jimmy Carter: North Korean Regime Deserves Our Respect
November 27, 2010

A media person walks at houses destroyed by North Korean shelling on the Yeonpyeong Island, South Korea, Friday, Nov. 26, 2010. North Korea warned Friday that planned U.S.-South Korean military drills are pushing the peninsula to the brink of war.

The North Korean regime attacked South Korea killing 2 Korean Marines and 2 civilians.
Thank goodness Jimmy Carter was there to defend them.
Via Verum Serum (http://www.verumserum.com/?p=19359) and The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112305808.html):

No one can completely understand the motivations of the North Koreans, but it is entirely possible that their recent revelation of their uranium enrichment centrifuges and Pyongyang’s shelling of a South Korean island Tuesday are designed to remind the world that they deserve respect in negotiations that will shape their future.http://redantliberationarmy.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/jimmy-carter-north-korean-regime-deserves-our-respect/


Why couldn't he been like this, when his ass was in office?

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11855162


War games have begun

and look at this. the very thing that drove the DPRK to shell the island will be intensified.

The BBC's Chris Hogg, in the South Korean capital Seoul, says military sources there say that planning for the war games began before North Korea's deadly attack on Yeonpyeong island. But they add that the intensity of the live fire and bombing drills will now be stepped up.

[punisa]

I'm afraid of tomorrow's news..

[The Vegan Marxist]

South Korea is not commenting on this report, but apparently, if this report is correct, the DPRK are firing missiles at the South's jet fighters, due to the war games continuing:

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_608272.html

[The Vegan Marxist]

Sirens are going off in South Korea, all citizens are being ordered to head to shelter immediately:

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/international/asia_pacific/view.bg?articleid=1299300

[Rusty Shackleford]

oh fuck

[Rusty Shackleford]

More reports are starting to say the same thing. the DPRK is mobilizing its air defenses.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/asia-pacific/north-korea-readies-missiles-as-us-south-korea-begin-drill/article1816291/

[scarletghoul]

Deployment, not firing. But yes this could well be the start of a war. :(

[Chimurenga.]

The DPRK has been calling for private talks with the US multiple times this week and they've been ignored. The US and South Korea are still pushing into northern Korean territory (lines that THEY drew up and created) and are pursuing more military drills. This is clear provocation by the imperialists and they are pushing for war. I absolutely refuse to believe otherwise.

[gorillafuck]

I'm usually skeptical of what are often sensationalized stories but yeah, this seems like it could possibly be the beginning of a new Korean war.

How often do sirens go off ordering South Koreans into shelter?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I usually don't buy into what are mostly sensationalized stories but yeah, this seems like it could possibly be the beginning of a new Korean war.

How often do sirens go off ordering South Koreans into shelter?

there are bi-annual drills in seoul(i think) but other than that, they are for emergency.


news about missile deployment made it to the front page on google news.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm usually skeptical of what are often sensationalized stories but yeah, this seems like it could possibly be the beginning of a new Korean war.

How often do sirens go off ordering South Koreans into shelter?

Well, such hasn't happened in quite a long time, not serious wise, from what I remember. So yeah, this is pretty serious. :(

[The Vegan Marxist]

Also, according to this report, there are artillery shells being heard, so don't know:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-11-27/yeonpyeong-residents-ordered-to-take-shelter-artillery-heard.html

[Magón]

I'm usually skeptical of what are often sensationalized stories but yeah, this seems like it could possibly be the beginning of a new Korean war.

How often do sirens go off ordering South Koreans into shelter?

I think they actually had them go off once a couple years ago or something, but maybe it was another country? Could have sworn in was SK though?

[Rusty Shackleford]

im guessing the artillery is a warning.

if war breaks out, it will be all over the news immediately. its not going to start with a small barrage here and there. its going to, sadly, be total.

for both sides, what happens in the first few hours is really crucial.

the artillery positions in the North would be bombed very quickly in order to save southern defences and seoul. this is just my speculation.


god damn, this is not good.

[gorillafuck]

there are bi-annual drills in seoul(i think) but other than that, they are for emergency.
And this is not a drill I assume?

[Rusty Shackleford]

And this is not a drill I assume?
looks like its not.

TVMs post stated it may have been in response to some audible artillery fire in the North.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/208513/us-s-korea-naval-exercises-begin-island-tensions


The drill involves thousands of service personnel and was taking place off South Korea's southwest coast, far from the inter-Korean border, according to coordinates given by Seoul officials.
Pyongyang has warned that the new war games mean the peninsula "is inching closer to the brink of war".
"If the US brings its carrier to the West Sea of Korea (Yellow Sea) at last, no one can predict the ensuing consequences," the North's official news agency said Saturday, in the latest of a series of warnings following Tuesday's bombardment.



If the drills move north to the disputed border, things will get worse. right now, everyone is just being cautious.

the sirens on yeongpeong(sp?) island were to call alll people, military and civillian, into shelters. people were let out of the shelters after 40 minutes.

so, it seems like things may not be so bad yet.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Chairman of DPRK parliament to be in Beijing on Tuesday
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AR0EG20101128

(Reuters) - The chairman of North Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/north-korea)'s Supreme People's Assembly will visit China from Tuesday, the official Xinhua news agency said on Sunday, while a senior Chinese diplomat was in Seoul for talks on the tense confrontation between the two Koreas.
Choe Tae-Bok, the head of North Korea's rubber-stamp parliament, will visit China until Saturday, the most senior visitor from Pyongyang since the confrontation erupted after North Korea shelled a South Korea (http://www.reuters.com/places/south-korea)n island this week.
The announcement came while Dai Bingguo, a Chinese State Councillor who advises leaders on foreign policy, was in Seoul for talks on the volatile standoff. Dai outranks China's Foreign Minister.
Beijing is the North's most powerful ally and has repeatedly urged restraint and fresh talks to defuse the tensions.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I ran into this picture today and it cracked me up. :laugh:

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h111/durancm/north_korea_nuclear_bomb_473095.jpg

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://online.wsj.com/media/crt_anying_F_20101126055850.jpg
Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao lays flowers before the statue of Chinese People’s Volunteers (CPV) soldier Mao Anying, son of the late Chinese leader Mao Zedong, at a cemetery for martyrs of the Chinese People’s Volunteers (CPV) during Wen’s visit to North Korea, Oct. 5, 2009.

With the U.S. calling on Beijing to rein in North Korea after the artillery strike on a South Korean island, Pyongyang is playing up perhaps the most potent symbol of its historic link with the People’s Republic of China: the gravesite of Mao Zedong’s first son.
On Thursday, the 60th anniversary of his death, a phalanx of North Korean officials paid their respects to Mao Anying, who was killed by an American airstrike while fighting as a volunteer in the Korean War and subsequently buried in Pyongyang. North Korean leader Kim Jong Il himself sent a wreath of flowers to the gravesite, according to reports by the state-controlled news agencies of both North Korea (http://kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201011/news25/20101125-03ee.html) and China (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/7211502.html).
A film crew from China that had previously produced a series on Mao Anying was also present, according to the reports. A day earlier on Wednesday, Kang Nung Su, vice-premier of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, attended a ceremony where he received a donation of DVD copies of the series, which he promised to deliver to Kim Jong Il. Kang said many heroic Chinese young people “fought side by side with the people and army of the DPRK in the war and laid down their precious lives,” according to an account (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/7210042.html) by Xinhua posted on the People’s Daily website.
The legacy of the Chinese-North Korean alliance in the Korean War - which technically never ended and is merely in a state of armistice- lives on to this day. It explains at least in part China’s inclination to continue providing diplomatic support for Pyongyang.
Last month, for instance, Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping, who is next in line to become China’s top leader after Hu Jintao, said that the Korean War was “a just war to defend peace against aggression from the U.S.” He was speaking at a meeting with veterans of the Chinese People’s Volunteers, the same organization that Mao Anying fought with. According to recently released Chinese figures, a total of 183,108 Chinese members of the volunteer corps died in the three-year war.
It doesn’t seem much of stretch to suppose that, after Tuesday’s deadly exchange of artillery fire with South Korea, North Korea saw the anniversary of Mao Anying’s death as an opportunity to remind its main patron that they were once comrades in arms. China’s motivations for playing up the story in its main official media outlets at this uniquely sensitive time are harder to decipher, but perhaps it is a sign that old allegiances sill linger.
http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2010/11/28/remembrance-as-reminder-mao%E2%80%99s-son-in-n-korea/



Venezuelan Statement: (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5817)

Mérida, November 26th 2010 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – In an official statement released this week, the Venezuelan government accused the United States of provoking the ongoing conflict between North and South Korea in order to further U.S. interests in the region.
President Hugo Chavez read the statement out loud during a televised meeting of regional vice presidents of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).
“The government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has for some time been warning of a political plan that consists of provoking incidents in the zone around the Korean peninsula...as a strategy for the perpetuation of imperialist military hegemony in the region,” read the statement.
“For peace-loving countries, it is essential to denounce the pre-meditated action of ultra-right sectors of the United States, which through certain institutions of the country such as the Pentagon, the State Department, and the CIA pursue the objective of creating diverse points of instability on the planet, as part of the necessity of maintaining the functioning of a well-oiled military industrial complex,” the statement continued.
The Venezuelan government also urged “the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the Republic of Korea, and the countries in the area to strengthen their capacity to understand each other, with the aim of preserving peace in the region.”
The U.S. and South Korea recently initiated large-scale land, sea, and air military exercises near the disputed maritime border between North and South Korea. North Korea interpreted these exercises as a threat of war. After warning that it would respond militarily if the exercises spilled into North Korean maritime territory, Pyonyang fired artillery shells at a South Korean island near the border, killing two civilians and two South Korean soldiers and injuring nearly 20. South Korea counter-attacked with 80 artillery rounds.
According to the BBC, the North Korean government said the tensions are pushing the region “to the brink of war.” United Nations Secretary Ban Ki-Moon called the incident the worst since the end of the Korean War in 1953.
U.S. President Barack Obama called the military clash “one more provocative incident,” and pledged full support to South Korea. Obama sent a nuclear-armed aircraft carrier to the region and asked China to back South Korea as well. China released an official statement urging moderation by all parties in order to “keep the situation under control and to ensure such events do not happen again.”

[t.shonku]

There is an old saying in the East,it goes something like this “Never try to Corner a Cat,or else it will become as ferocious as Tiger”. North Korea isn’t a strong country in comparison to US but it isn’t exactly as weak as a sheep it’s power is limited but it is still enough to cause serious damage to US (North Korea isn’t exactly a Tiger but is like a Wild Cat,aggressive, dangerous and smart),it has some long range missile and might posses few nukes and some chem/bio stuff thus before getting destroyed North Koreans will try to inflict as much damage on US and allies as it can,thus leaving the already weakened US more weak and vulnerable to attacks from other foes.

[Tzonteyotl]

There is an old saying in the East,it goes something like this “Never try to Corner a Cat,or else it will become as ferocious as Tiger”. North Korea isn’t a strong country in comparison to US but it isn’t exactly as weak as a sheep it’s power is limited but it is still enough to cause serious damage to US (North Korea isn’t exactly a Tiger but is like a Wild Cat,aggressive, dangerous and smart),it has some long range missile and might posses few nukes and some chem/bio stuff thus before getting destroyed North Koreans will try to inflict as much damage on US and allies as it can,thus leaving the already weakened US more weak and vulnerable to attacks from other foes.

Who suffers as a consequence of this though is obvious. Should North Korea use nuclear weapons and/or biological and chemical weapons if it has them, working class people will pay the price for the actions of the US and its allies. I don't see how that will weaken the US or make it more vulnerable to attack from other foes, so much as it will cause unbelievable harm to large groups of people who've done nothing wrong. This of course though is still an "if." And hopefully, it stays an "if."

[progressive_lefty]

Highlight where I said I want a war 'which will lead to a massive loss of life for both sides'.



Maybe here?

Ideal situation would be a war where the North loses very quickly, which brings democracy and could lead to a lesser American militiary influence in Korea, as China may seek direct diplomatic relations with a unified Korea.
I said an ideal situation would be where the North loses very quickly. I cannot say anything more to you, your just changing my words. I have said nothing about wanting massive loss of life. I've said nothing about 'wanting' anything. You can accuse me of wanting a war, but you cannot quote me as saying I have said such things.


Oh wait, I'm sure the war would be almost entirely bloodless, because the humane US Army uses only smart bombs that magically keep civvies from dying, and bunker busters that only hurt evil commies in bunkers. There will be no real bombings, just a bit of shock 'n awe that won't kill anyone. And if they occupy Korea, they won't torture anyone, just dunk a little water on their heads.

So yeah, never mind. You're right.

What does that have to do with anything? Prove to me that you don't have sex with animals. :rolleyes:

But I feel you, man. I'm such a pure communist that I support wars against all places that are not "a symbol of a sound communist country" (whatever the hell that may mean).

Sarcasim wrapped in negativity.

Anyway I'm done acknowleding your posts, they are no basis for reasonable argument, and they are just negativity based on avoiding the topic at hand. Your welcome to disagree with my post, but you only want to engage in insulting sarcastic negative language.

[t.shonku]

Who suffers as a consequence of this though is obvious. Should North Korea use nuclear weapons and/or biological and chemical weapons if it has them, working class people will pay the price for the actions of the US and its allies. I don't see how that will weaken the US or make it more vulnerable to attack from other foes, so much as it will cause unbelievable harm to large groups of people who've done nothing wrong. This of course though is still an "if." And hopefully, it stays an "if."

Sorry Pal! I don't mean any disrespect but I think you should spent some time in seeing how a cat fights for it's survival and you will get the answer.
I don't know if you know this but in Siberia during winter times even the squirrel sometimes gets ferocious for survival.
If war breaks out the North Koreans will be fighting for their survival,they will throw anything that they can,they very well know what has happened to Saddam and ruling sections in Iraq so the DPRK leadership will fight with all their might.On the other hand for US this will be a expedition.

[Morgenstern]

Why isn't anyone carrying out the Bush Doctrine? It was genius. :rolleyes:

I'm not surprised if this stays a stand off and nothing more. Barack Obama is too cautious to shoot first and North Korea isn't stupid. They'll just try to manipulate the situation to favor them. This is how they can get aid. You see if Han Solo was President the North Koreans would be dead already.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Just saw on the (ITN) news that North Korea has apparently deployed surface to surface missiles on the border just across from where the RoK-US joint training is taking place, yet, the BBC says that these deployments have NOT been confirmed by the south's defence ministry. Funny how some News sources conveniently forget important facts... scaremongering pricks.

[Wanted Man]

I said an ideal situation would be where the North loses very quickly. I cannot say anything more to you, your just changing my words. I have said nothing about wanting massive loss of life. I've said nothing about 'wanting' anything. You can accuse me of wanting a war, but you cannot quote me as saying I have said such things.


Sarcasim wrapped in negativity.

Anyway I'm done acknowleding your posts, they are no basis for reasonable argument, and they are just negativity based on avoiding the topic at hand. Your welcome to disagree with my post, but you only want to engage in insulting sarcastic negative language.

So essentially, you support a war and you have the illusion that it would be relatively bloodless. The latter is naivety, that's your own problem, but the former is pro-imperialism. And you are insulted by the fact that people are seeing through all the irrelevant bullshit that you're making up around it (about whether NK is truly communist or not) and are quite capable of discerning what you are really saying and what the logical consequences of this are.

So yeah, I don't really give a shit about what you want to acknowledge.

[Jeoh]

It's amazing to read people saying war would 'strengthen South Korea's war industry'. Seoul, Incheon and a large part of Gyeonggi-do would be fucked if war broke out, which is why South Korea is so hesistant to respond aggressively. Imagine living in the US' Northeast and having Canada as your mortal enemy with thousands of artillery emplacements just across the border.

[maskerade]

Sorry Pal! I don't mean any disrespect but I think you should spent some time in seeing how a cat fights for it's survival and you will get the answer.
I don't know if you know this but in Siberia during winter times even the squirrel sometimes gets ferocious for survival.
If war breaks out the North Koreans will be fighting for their survival,they will throw anything that they can,they very well know what has happened to Saddam and ruling sections in Iraq so the DPRK leadership will fight with all their might.On the other hand for US this will be a expedition.

ok, metaphors in all fairness, but are you seriously saying we should observe how cats fight in order to make an assessment regarding this situation?

if NK has nukes, and they are fighting for their survival - like a cat, or perhaps a siberian squirrel - they will use them, and the entire world will pay the price.

[Robocommie]

Best case scenario: Both countries make their gestures of defiance, save face, and then things begin to cool down and everything goes back to the normal tension.

Worst case scenario: One country or another makes one gesture of defiance too many and war breaks out, but the US and China have far too much to lose from open conflict, and so most likely the UN goes in again, strongly backed by the US, as a police action. In other words, the Second Korean War. Terrible suffering on both sides of the Korean border.

I think the former is far more likely than the latter, though.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

It's amazing to read people saying war would 'strengthen South Korea's war industry'. Seoul, Incheon and a large part of Gyeonggi-do would be fucked if war broke out, which is why South Korea is so hesistant to respond aggressively. Imagine living in the US' Northeast and having Canada as your mortal enemy with thousands of artillery emplacements just across the border.

QFT. Seoul is less than 25 miles from the border at the shortest point, even though DPRK artillery will have a hard time hitting Seoul from that distance, its missiles will have no problem even deep inside DPRK territory... even possibly from China. In a short war in which the DPRK lost, the RoK would still get severely twatted within the first hour or so.

[Property Is Robbery]

America is now blaming China for not taking a harder stance against North Korea

"Unfortunately, China is not behaving as a responsible world power," - John McCain

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-lawmakers-korea-20101129,0,1146438.story

[Hexen]

If North Korea has Nukes and if they use them this will cause a chain reaction that will envelop the entire world (Nuclear War) resulting possible human extinction due to global radiation poisoning.

Well it also shows that world powers that will even considering touching nukes how much they care about the human race anyways and they are batshit dangerously insane...well it also shows that they really give a shit about others and it's about self-preservation which even they will not survive due to their own arrogance.

I hope I'm wrong though but I just find the world powers actually incredibility retarded for even using stockpiling these weapons and these weapons should never be used let alone it was the biggest mistake for these weapons being even invented in the first place.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i highly doubt a war in Korea would lead to a free for all nuclear exchange. actually, it wont happen. even if there is some use of nukes in the region, it wont be the apocalypse.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

If the DPRK used a Nuke on the RoK, the US would most likely Nuke them back, but I doubt it would result in all out Nuclear warfare. If the US nuked the DPRK first however... that could get ugly, but its unlikely since the diplomatic backlash would be crippling, and Obama is somewhat sane.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This may actually not develop into a war.

Seeing that the US is doing ALL it can to pressure china to do something about Korea has really made this an indirect confrontation between the US and China.

If war breaks out, it will be a diplomatic and humanitarian disaster though.

[Antifa94]

Looks like nothing is going to happen.

[Rusty Shackleford]

ugh this is a geo-political-emotional-economic roller coaster.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What the fuck Australia!? (http://www.smh.com.au/world/australian-help-might-be-required-in-a-war-says-rudd-20101128-18cco.html)

Out of nowhere Kevin Rudd talks about coming to the support of the ROK in the event of war.


The Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd, has left open the possibility of Australia coming to the support of South Korea in the event of war with North Korea.
Mr Rudd said North Korea's ''spate of irresponsible actions'' culminating with its artillery barrage on South Korean islands last week meant Australia was watching the position ''with razor-sharp eyes''.
While not wishing to stoke the issue unnecessarily, he said the ANZUS treaty was ''clear about our requirements to act to meet the common danger''.

Mr Rudd said on Channel Nine he was ''pretty concerned about how things are unfolding''.
The sinking of a South Korean frigate with the loss of 50 sailors, last week's attack, and the revelations that North Korea has a uranium enrichment program providing a second source of fissile material that could be made into nuclear bombs, meant ''things are quite delicate''.



Accidental artillery fire by ROK at DMZ (http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20101128000428)

South Korea mistakenly fired an artillery shell toward the southern side of the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) on Sunday afternoon and soon sent a message to North Korea that the firing was accidental, military officials said.

No casualties occurred from the accidental discharge that took place at around 3 p.m., the officials said.

An army artillery unit in the border town of Paju, Gyeonggi Province, mistakenly fired a 155mm towed howitzer while on training, they said. The shell landed some 14 kilometers north of the army base, on a hill on the South Korean side of the DMZ, they said.

"The army unit was not engaging in an artillery firing exercise. A shell that had been loaded previously was mistakenly fired," an army official said.

The military authorities sent a message to North Korea explaining that the firing was unintentional. North Korea has given no response, they said.

Military authorities were investigating the incident, the officials said.

Tensions are running high between the two Koreas after the North launched an artillery attack on a South Korean border island Tuesday, killing two marines and two civilians. The attack marked the first time since the 1950-53 Korean War that the communist neighbor targeted a civilian area. (Yonhap News)

[Leonid Brozhnev]

As i've already said, it doesn't matter how many people want to support the South militarily in the event of war with the DPRK, the RoK would still be royaly fucked within a matter of minutes.
DPRK might lose the war, but they cannot save the Northern part of the RoK including cities like Incheon and Seoul from being pummelled by artillery and SSM's within the first hour or so... if they want to save the lives of thousands, they need to work this out diplomatically, stop supporting the possibility of War and lay off the finger pointing. They could also let the DPRK walk into the RoK unopposed (ha)...

[Tzonteyotl]

Sorry Pal! I don't mean any disrespect but I think you should spent some time in seeing how a cat fights for it's survival and you will get the answer.
I don't know if you know this but in Siberia during winter times even the squirrel sometimes gets ferocious for survival.
If war breaks out the North Koreans will be fighting for their survival,they will throw anything that they can,they very well know what has happened to Saddam and ruling sections in Iraq so the DPRK leadership will fight with all their might.On the other hand for US this will be a expedition.

If it's to be an "expedition" for the US, how exactly would nuking innocent civilians in America or South Korea aid in the North's fight for survival? It'd be nothing more than a final "Fuck you!" to the States... and the working class.

[The Vegan Marxist]

If it's to be an "expedition" for the US, how exactly would nuking innocent civilians in America or South Korea aid in the North's fight for survival? It'd be nothing more than a final "Fuck you!" to the States... and the working class.

North Korea's nukes are defensive against other nukes. How many times do people need to clarify this? Also, even if the DPRK was to use their nukes, it would only be towards South Korea. Their nukes wouldn't make it all the way to the US, not from what I've read.

[Tzonteyotl]

North Korea's nukes are defensive against other nukes. How many times do people need to clarify this? Also, even if the DPRK was to use their nukes, it would only be towards South Korea. Their nukes wouldn't make it all the way to the US, not from what I've read.

I'm sorry, but I'm not a fan of nukes, period. As for whether they'll reach the States, that's something the other member suggested in his/her post which is why I mentioned it. Defensive or not, the working class will suffer wherever a nuke is used. That's all I was saying.

[Sir Comradical]

I'm sorry, but I'm not a fan of nukes, period. As for whether they'll reach the States, that's something the other member suggested in his/her post which is why I mentioned it. Defensive or not, the working class will suffer wherever a nuke is used. That's all I was saying.

Countries don't develop nuclear weapons because it's a fun hobby. They develop nukes because it's the best deterrent out there.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm sorry, but I'm not a fan of nukes, period.

I don't like them either. Though, I prefer to stick to reality and understand that they're not just going to disappear for many years, just because we want them to.

[Burn A Flag]

I too think that North Korea's nuclear stockpiles are probably just for self defense/deterrence. How in the world would the DPRK get away with nuking any country with the amount of weapons trained on them?

[Tzonteyotl]

Countries don't develop nuclear weapons because it's a fun hobby. They develop nukes because it's the best deterrent out there.


I don't like them either. Though, I prefer to stick to reality and understand that they're not just going to disappear for many years, just because we want them to.

Perhaps. But that doesn't change who will pay the price if they're used as stated by the member who I originally responded to. Deterrent or not, if they're used (which I am sure we all hope they aren't) it's going to be one fucked up tragedy.

[RedZelenka]

This is truly a depressing moment. I hope Clinton has the capacity to defuse this, or else we're all boned.
Hillary Clinton has been agitating against N. Korea and Myanmar for years.

S. Korea started it by faking a military action to make themselves look tough, N. Korea pushed back because they're starving and get most of their rice aid from S. Korea. Simple as that.

[Jeoh]

North Korea does not have nuclear weapons. They can detonate flimsy atom bombs underground, yes, but they do not have the capability to use them in any way against their opponents.

EDIT: Here's the US/Russia saying it instead of me. Golly, I already get to use the cables as a source. U.S.-RUSSIA JOINT THREAT ASSESSMENT TALKS, 12-2009 (http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.html)

[Martin Blank]

North Korea does not have nuclear weapons. They can detonate flimsy atom bombs underground, yes, but they do not have the capability to use them in any way against their opponents.

EDIT: Here's the US/Russia saying it instead of me. Golly, I already get to use the cables as a source. U.S.-RUSSIA JOINT THREAT ASSESSMENT TALKS, 12-2009 (http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.html)

I think I've said on more than one occasion that North Korea is not looking for a long-range nuclear capacity. They don't really need a stockpile of nuclear-tipped short-, medium- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles, because they'd be more trouble than they're worth right now (much as would be the case for American ICBMs in the event of a land invasion). On the other hand, Pyongyang does want tactical nuclear weapons in case of war with the South. A yield of 0.5 to 20 kilotons (the yield of the Hiroshima bomb) would be sufficient for their purposes. Even with North Korea's limited ability to build a small version of a nuclear weapon (a so-called "suitcase bomb"), they can build and creatively mount TLADs (Theater-Level Atomic Devices) for use in a conflict with South Korean and U.S./UN forces. With North Korea's new uranium enrichment facility online, it could easily be retooled to weaponize the material needed for these weapons.

Remember, this isn't the Cold War period, with the U.S. and USSR facing off. Missiles with the ability to criss-cross the world are not needed. This is on the scale of a small border war, not a world war -- for the moment, anyway -- so the big hardware is virtually irrelevant right now.