Illiegal immigration in the USA

[Burn A Flag]

Recently, I've been talking to some people (some stupid right wingers, and one reasonably intelligent person) and immigration has come up. The sentiment that illiegal immigrants steal our jobs and by extension our money has come up too. To what extent if at all do illiegal immigrants steal our money and jobs if at all? How can I argue my position of pro immigrant? Could I also bring up that it's not their fault they don't pay taxes since they cannot immigrate legally?

[NKVD]

Recently, I've been talking to some people (some stupid right wingers, and one reasonably intelligent person) and immigration has come up. The sentiment that illiegal immigrants steal our jobs and by extension our money has come up too. To what extent if at all do illiegal immigrants steal our money and jobs if at all? How can I argue my position of pro immigrant? Could I also bring up that it's not their fault they don't pay taxes since they cannot immigrate legally?

I'm from California, and believe me none of the whites here would want the jobs that latinos take. Not that they should be stuck with such shitty jobs. But that is just the simple fact.

[Tablo]

You could point out that without immigration the US would have a declining population and a significantly weaker economy.

[Amphictyonis]

The Effect of Immigration

The large scale employer looking at greater profitability or the way to cut costs has several options open, the easiest and laziest being to cut wages. If the workers are well-organised they can resist this so there are two options open to the major capitalist. Either take the factories to where the cheap labour is or take the cheap labour to where the factories are. The first option entails great pollution, as a rule -- not that they ever care about that -- and in some cases they have to go into areas of political instability. It is cheaper to move the cheap labour.
Having thus encouraged immigration, wearing the financial hat as it were, the capitalist in the capacity of a right-wing politician, dons the political hat and denounces immigration. This has the advantage of setting worker against worker, fuelled by religious and/or racial antipathies which can persist for generations, and have the added bonus of inducing the worker to support the right wing electorally. It does the capitalist no harm to have a work force hated by those who surround them, or in fear of deportation if they step out of line. Nor does it harm the capitalist, in a political context, to have issues such as immigration replace the basic issue of the wage and monetary system. It only becomes harmful from that point of view when a fascist force such as Hitler's gains such armed might that it can ignore the wishes of the capitalists which gave them that power and strives for its own superiority.

-Albert Meltzer-

[Amphictyonis]

I'm from California, and believe me none of the whites here would want the jobs that latinos take. Not that they should be stuck with such shitty jobs. But that is just the simple fact.

Not true. "Illegal" immigration depreciates wages in the service sector and construction sector. Two of the largest working class areas of employment. "Illegal" immigration undercuts unions and effects us all in a negative way.

The goal, for us socialists, should be let anyone who wants to come here come here so long as they join a union (the exact opposite of what capitalists want). Even if they're non union let them come (full citizenship) but I'd rather see all workers join unions. What happens when they're "illegal" is the capitalist can pay shit wages, no overtime, no benefits and abuse them in other ways without them being able to do anything about it. This depreciates wages for all US citizens and creates inhumane work environments for "illegal" workers.


It's all done so more profits can be made. If you think capitalists raking in more profits doesn't effect ALL workers then you're mistaken. The problem is, US citizen workers usually blame the "illegal" worker rather than the capitalist. Both outsourcing to second/third world nations and inscourcing "illegal" labor has in fact effected the US citizen working class of all colors. Look at the prison population boom from the late 1970's to today.

EDIT- also look at the "illegal" immigration boom since NAFTA/CAFTA was passed and private property law introduced on a large scale in South America. There has been laws passed in south america designed to either force south american workers into corporate industry in their home country or to force them up north to make a living. I welcome them here but when one worker is willing to work for shit wages it effects us all. Unionizing the "illegal" work force would be great but thats why the capitalists want them "illegal" as soon as they start demanding fair wages, benefits, overtime etc immigration will mysteriously show up.

[Summerspeaker]

Competition with workers who accept less money certainly reduces wages overall, though it may also provide lower prices and thus benefit anyone who buys stuff. Economists typically claim the process strengthens the economy as a whole. Those details aren't terribly important for our purposes. Opposition to immigration - at least here in the United States - stands misguided at best and downright white supremacist at worse. In classic capitalist fashion, the citizenship divide sets workers at each other's throats when we should unite and dump the bosses off our backs. Blame the rich, not the disadvantaged comrades who are even more exploited than you are.

[Peace on Earth]

If someone is in the position where they are forced to leave their home country, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt regardless of what they do. Bickering over jobs is the goal the ruling class has for the working class. It's best to realize we're all in this together, immigrant or non-immigrant, legal or "illegal." (I shudder to have groups labeled legal and others not)

[blake 3:17]

Not true. "Illegal" immigration depreciates wages in the service sector and construction sector. Two of the largest working class areas of employment. "Illegal" immigration undercuts unions and effects us all in a negative way.

The best way the unions and social movements can fight is 1) a status for all/ no one is illegal basis (historically the most combative sections of the labour movement in North America has been migrant workers) and 2) opposing WTO/IMF/NAFTA type "reforms" which have dispossessed peasants and workers in the Global South.

When I first read your post I was ready to call you nasty names, but you have shown enough thought I will refrain for the time being.

During the big anti-WTO/IMF ifghts in 99/2000 a missing ingredianet was workers in the Global North pushing for land reform in the Global South.

We do work here with regularizing both domestic and agricultural workers who are here under temporary work provisions but who are barred from basic labour rights, inclusing unionization. A very close friend has done organizing in certain service sector kinds of employment and it has been very tricky to build effective solidarity between migrant workers and workers with full citizenship.

For socialists, the fights are with the employers and the state.

Don't blame the victims.

[Property Is Robbery]

You could tell the people you're trying to convince how America has contributed to the blight in Mexico.

[Tankred]

Hell, the way I see it, some of these "lazy job stealers" risked life and limb to get over here. If they want to have shit jobs that uppity whites won't take, I don't see the issue.

Plus, on a personal level, most illegals are treated like fucking dogs down here in Alabama. Politicians go out of their way to demonize these poor souls, these poor souls who are working for less than minimum wage, roofing houses in the Alabama heat or digging ditches in the winter. These poor souls that have their houses regularly raided "because of a justified suspitions." Of course, the moment I mention any of this to almost any other southerner, they either say "Well they shouldn't be here anyways" or "But they all commit crime and sell drugs."

[Burn A Flag]

Thanks Amphictyonis for the especially detailed and useful analysis of the immigration situation. Now I feel I can more comprehensibly debate this. It's not immigrants fault that they are being exploited. They left Latin America to escape conditions so awful that they risked their lives to come to the USA, and they only hurt us because they tolerate more exploitative labor conditions than the USA normally does. A cheif reason for their immigration was the NAFTA agreement, which basically pushed Mexicans to immigrate to the USA for jobs. This was encouraged by the capitalists in the USA because they want even cheaper labor. The politicans have used a slander campaign to demonize immigrants so they feel less able to change their position in the status quo for fear of deportation. This is not our fault as "Americans" nor their fault. It is the fault of the capital owning class who's system necessitates cheap labor.

[Summerspeaker]

Plus, on a personal level, most illegals are treated like fucking dogs down here in Alabama. Politicians go out of their way to demonize these poor souls, these poor souls who are working for less than minimum wage, roofing houses in the Alabama heat or digging ditches in the winter. These poor souls that have their houses regularly raided "because of a justified suspitions." Of course, the moment I mention any of this to almost any other southerner, they either say "Well they shouldn't be here anyways" or "But they all commit crime and sell drugs."

Yikes. One of my comrades from a Mexican immigrant family tells me horror stories about growing up in Alabama. An early memory involves his family being terrified of the KKK. He often mentions how pleasant New Mexico seems by comparison. U.S. immigration policy and anti-immigrant agitation serves to lock an entire community in fear and thus enable greater exploitation by capitalist bosses. It's an unbelievably ugly system that we need to oppose whenever and wherever we can.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Immigrants from the south, especially Mexico, come to the United States for higher wages. However, there are several problems, myths, and lies with the arguments opponents of immigrants give.
Moving to somewhere you are unfamiliar with isn't easy, especially leaving your family and homeland. To risk your life doing it speaks volumes; it's not just something that is that easy, physically and emotionally. People seek work in different countries because of the hardships and burdens introduced onto them from the capitalists and their programs, such as NAFTA. It's tragically laughable that the majority of U.S. politicians complain about "illegal" immigrants, when they are the ones who set up these harsh international problems and then don't face the consequences and reality they bring to our world. They create the problem, then don't accept the responsibility? That's just a "little" messed up.
To say they are stealing jobs or not paying taxes is also deceiving. They're not "stealing" a job, because it was already taken away from you. The boss has already decided to take it away and sell it at a cheaper price. To say they take it straight from you is a lie. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Also, on taxes: take a look at surveys. Most Hispanic immigrants usually stay in the country for a stay of about 2 years before going back to their homeland (this isn't to say they come back though). A lot of them give up a good portion of their paychecks to send money back to their families, something that is very selfless.
I think I saw a statistic that says over 50-60% of "illegal" immigrants pay into the Social Security system, KNOWING they may not be eligible for it, but in hopes of being in good standing with the government in-case something happens. Plus, you must look at the small things: everyone pays taxes. How so? Well, don't you buy things? There is such a thing called a sales tax :lol: