Ireland confirms bailout deal

[Zanthorus]

The Irish government has agreed to a multi-billion Euro rescue deal with the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. The BBC article announcing it is here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11807730). The precise terms of the deal are still being negotiated. According to the BBC article announcing Ireland's initial request for assistance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11805529), this will mean a string of cuts to public sector spending and a possible reduction in the mininum wage.

[Coggeh]

The Irish government has agreed to a multi-billion Euro rescue deal with the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. The BBC article announcing it is here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11807730). The precise terms of the deal are still being negotiated. According to the BBC article announcing Ireland's initial request for assistance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11805529), this will mean a string of cuts to public sector spending and a possible reduction in the mininum wage.

There will be a guaranteed cut in the minimum wage (murmours on random papers stating it will be abolished entirely, though thats extremely unlikely in my view) however this won't be isolated this will come after a swift and brutal cut to social welfare.

Government shareholdings in semi state companies look to be removed such as in the ESB and Aer Lingus. Along with the huge cuts that are going to hit the public sector itself, such as in Lativia where the IMF cut public sector pay by a staggering 20% !.

Property tax which will cost annually the average household 1,000 euro throughout the pay scale along with water tax. This is another tactic to bring in a stealth flat tax system , instead of incorporating these fee's collectively among the tax bracket they are doing it on the individual basis which will obviously hit working class people more.

International news media have completely hit the wrong nail on the head by focusing on threats to Irelands criminal 12.5% corporation tax, this will not be touch(unfortunately) in fact comments from the financial times are closer to the truth that in actual fact the EU will push to lower the corp tax to 12-15% across the board in the EU, this being done by setting up a lower/higher limit of tax such as it has to be within a 10-18 tax scale.

The recession which has hit so far with the brutal cuts already felt are child's play to what is about to hit the Irish working class, the unions who have stood down and betrayed the movement time and time again are the key to how this will unfold. Activists must fight tooth and nail in the workplace, in the unions to put pressure on the union leadership but also show the treachery of the union leadership in the past and the present. To fight for democratic unions.

To all leftists in Ireland on this site, for those who put off activity, who have fell out of activity this is the time to come back, their will be no other hurdle in the next 10 years which an individuals actions in a collective movement matter as much.

[scarletghoul]

The Irish don't take no shit, there will definitely be some resistance to this right ??

[Die Neue Zeit]

There will be a guaranteed cut in the minimum wage (murmours on random papers stating it will be abolished entirely, though thats extremely unlikely in my view) however this won't be isolated this will come after a swift and brutal cut to social welfare.

And we all thought Greece was bad! :mad:

[Coggeh]

And we all thought Greece was bad! :mad:

I'm not up to date on the situation of Greece mainly because the events that have unfolded here over the past few weeks so i can't compare the two, though it looks extremely bad.

[pastradamus]

Well the Government has indeed signed the life,soul and welfare of every Irish Working class citizen over to the Economic Terrorists known as the International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank.

When I sit and ponder about how this all came about I feel disgusted at how this happened to us.

The Irish Budget is due to be announced on December 7th. They (the government) are hoping to save €4bn through a process of Increased Taxation and Cuts to spending. This means that they will probably introduce the charges mentioned by coggeh as well as making a direct attack on the income of every Irish Working citizen.

As a by-product of this, Employers are likely to cut jobs, Freeze/Lower wages and hire "casual" workers to replace those in Full-time positions - in order to pay these casuals minimum wage -Scabs in otherwords (Marks & Spencer, Tesco, Debenhams, Synergy Security, Group 4 Security, Holland and Barrett, Boots are all doing this right now).

The property tax is one of the major tax reforms about to be introduced. This might include a "driveway" tax - where someone parking their car directly on the property gets taxed for having that luxury - Mainly the working class.

The State's two Major national banks; AIB and Bank of Ireland are likely to be put up for sale to the highest private bidder. Mass amount of Public Employees are likely to be sacked ( the propaganda divide public/private sector workers is doing it nasty job successfully).

Of course this could all have been avoided by simply allowing Anglo-Irish bank to die a death on its own without a bail-out, without bailing out the other banks, by never allowing the rip-off property market to hit the levels it did and by never joining the European single currency (we cannot de-value our currency now).

After saying all this... I dont have any Fucking idea about whats going to happen (excuse me for using the word Idea).

[Palingenisis]

I have a job...But I have a sick relative to take care of...This is a nightmare situation.

[Palingenisis]

The Irish don't take no shit, there will definitely be some resistance to this right ??

The Free State goverment/26 county regime pays tons to the EU to opt out of various civil liberties/human rights things....We down here have more political prisoners than the Basque area of Spain which has just seen the end of an insurgency. You can be sent to jail for 8 years on the "hunch" of a pig...

[pastradamus]

The Irish don't take no shit, there will definitely be some resistance to this right ??

Well, the trade union movement is organising a mass demonstration in the coming weeks (they should have organised it for Right now when its fresh on everybody's minds - like the students did). Maybe there will be more done but to be quite honest the Irish Public are SO DEMORALISED right now that I don't think they care too much anymore and have simply lost faith and their voice after screaming for the last two years.

I mean, just two weeks ago, the government announced that it would be dispensing free CHEESE to people who were in dire economic circumstances(Ie a family with two unemployed Adults)after the good people at the Charity known as St.Vincent de Paul accused them of doing nothing for the poor. I mean what a total and Unbelievably HUGE INSULT to the worst and unluckiest members of the working class.

I for one will not take this on the chin. I shall be protesting. I'll tell them where to put their cheese.

[punisa]

Thanks for all the info.
Comrades who live in Ireland - can you shine a bit of light on what happened to Ireland in the last decade?
There were some huge economic boosts correct? What caused them and how it all plays together with the current crisis?

I'm mentioning this because I remember (cca 8 years ago) that our government (in Croatia) kept saying this on many occasions : "we must follow the Ireland's example".

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Profit is private, but losess are socalized. It's a good deal for the bankers, they can't loose out.

Edit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11807769

Britain will be bailing out the Irish to the tune of £7bn, yet the UK govt is undertaking the most savage programme of cuts to public services ever seen. Odd that.

[Palingenisis]

Britain will be bailing out the Irish to the tune of £7bn, yet the UK govt is undertaking the most savage programme of cuts to public services ever seen. Odd that.

Its to do with the fact that aswell as being a client state of the UK the 26 counties is the UK's biggest external market so if we go down completely its going to mess up your economy.

[Devrim]

Its to do with the fact that aswell as being a client state of the UK the 26 counties is the UK's biggest external market so if we go down completely its going to mess up your economy.

I think you are making this up. The United States is with over twice as many exports going there as go to Ireland. Germany comes next, then France then the Netherlands.


Of course this could all have been avoided by simply allowing Anglo-Irish bank to die a death on its own without a bail-out, without bailing out the other banks, by never allowing the rip-off property market to hit the levels it did and by never joining the European single currency (we cannot de-value our currency now)..

The whole idea of 'we' being able to devalue 'our own' currency implies that there is some sort of unity of interests between those who do the devaluing and the working class.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

The Irish Government is on the verge of collapse after the Green Party said that they wanted a general election in January. In effect it is impossible to see the budget passing unless Fine Gael and/or the Labour Party vote for it.

There are rumours flying around that the opposition could support €6billion in cuts in return for an immediate general election (in the national interest).

The crisis is only going to escalate in the coming days.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1122/greenstatement.html

Press Statement from Joe Higgins MEP (Socialist Party / CWI)

http://www.joehiggins.eu/2010/11/green-party%C2%B4s-cynical-posturing-won%C2%B4t-save-it-from-annihilation/

[fionntan]

I think you are making this up. The United States is with over twice as many exports going there as go to Ireland. Germany comes next, then France then the Netherlands.



The whole idea of 'we' being able to devalue 'our own' currency implies that there is some sort of unity of interests between those who do the devaluing and the working class.

Devrim

Two fiths of british trade is with Ireland North and south Fact..

[Devrim]

Two fiths of british trade is with Ireland North and south Fact..

UK government export figures seem to suggest that this is not the case:


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2010/2/24/1267034170741/UK-exports-graphic-002.jpg

Devrim

[crazyirish93]

brian cowen making a statement at seven more then likely announcing dissolution of the government

[fionntan]

brian cowen making a statement at seven more then likely announcing dissolution of the government

I thinks its more likely that he will annonounce a election mid january. And spew a lot of patroit lies ...

[fionntan]

UK government export figures seem to suggest that this is not the case:


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2010/2/24/1267034170741/UK-exports-graphic-002.jpg

Devrim


Its has been head line news over here all day two fiths...

[Jolly Red Giant]

I thinks its more likely that he will annonounce a election mid january. And spew a lot of patroit lies ...
In terms of salvaging what he can for Fianna Fail he has to go tonight. The budget isn't going to pass anyway. If he goes tonight he can blame the collapse on the Greens (who have just signed the political death warrant of their entire parliamentary party) and leave it to Fine Gael and Labour to be the hatchet men for the IMF.

[Devrim]

Its has been head line news over here all day two fiths...

18.4% (which is virtually two fifths) of Ireland's exports go to the UK. I think that perhaps you, or the news, have confused it. The idea that 20% of the UK's exports go to a country of less than 5,000,000 people is a little absurd.

Devrim

[fionntan]

18.4% (which is virtually two fifths) of Ireland's exports go to the UK. I think that perhaps you, or the news, have confused it. The idea that 205 of the UK's exports go to a country of less than 5,000,000 people is a little absurd.

Devrim

sorry i got confused just checked it up there my fault.

[Manic Impressive]

Its to do with the fact that aswell as being a client state of the UK the 26 counties is the UK's biggest external market so if we go down completely its going to mess up your economy.

I've heard it's about 6% of Uk exports are to Ireland which would still fuck up the economy. I wanted to add to your statement that it is not only the economy that will get screwed up but a chance for the UK government to dictate policy to Ireland. This is already evident and unashamedly publicized by Osborne saying that the Irish will have to raise their corporation tax, while raising corporation tax may not seem like a bad thing to us it will make the UK richer and Ireland poorer and go against their own ideological policy of competitive taxation, not to mention the interest that the UK will be charging. Then what's next? the UK will be calling in "favours" for years.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The government decide to tough it out tonight - government will fall on budget day - if it gets that far.

[Coggeh]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anger-over-plans-to-cut-minimum-wage-2430010.html

Minimum wage to be cut by 13% meaning it will go down to 7.60 from 8.65 roughly.

Talk about reducing job seekers benefit and allowance by 5%.

http://www.thejournal.ie/hse-to-integrate-cork-and-kerry-hospitals-2010-11/

HSE going to centralise health care in Cork and Kerry , meaning for anything specialised at all people in Kerry will have to travel over an hour to the CUH in cork.

Also the government look ready to back out of the croke park agreement which was an absolute disgrace in the first place, looks set that the cuts in the agreement will not be enough to satisfy the hounds from the IMF, IBEC and the Government.

Should probably think about starting up a sub forum in workers struggles for Ireland soon.

[ed miliband]

BBC coverage seems to focus wholly on how the Irish are "very proud people" and, as such, are only annoyed because they are embarrassed about how they will look around the world.

:rolleyes:

[crazyirish93]

i suppose it was naive of me to expect a politician to do the right thing

[Quetzal]

Let's paraphrase James Conolly here...

"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."

James Conolly - Easter Uprising 1916

[pastradamus]

The idea that 205 of the UK's exports go to a country of less than 5,000,000 people is a little absurd.
Devrim

Irrelevant, The British Market is very much tied to the Irish one these days. The success of the bourgeoisie over here is also the success of the bourgeoisie over there. There is a Massive amount of British Investment in Ireland - this extends to almost every arm of Irish economic activity. If the Irish economy vanished tomorrow, the UK Government would find itself in a bit of economic chaos - particularly on its Western Seaboard area's.

[Ataxia]

UK government export figures seem to suggest that this is not the case:




Devrim

They're probably counting the occupied counties as part of the UK.

[fionntan]

There not he is right..

[pastradamus]

I think you are making this up. The United States is with over twice as many exports going there as go to Ireland. Germany comes next, then France then the Netherlands.



The whole idea of 'we' being able to devalue 'our own' currency implies that there is some sort of unity of interests between those who do the devaluing and the working class.

Devrim

Obviously, there is no unity there.. Actually, the even frank suggestion of unity would make the working class in this country laugh - however the fact remains that the government did terrible things to the workers that should NEVER be forgiven. I don't believe the tone of my post even suggested such an aspect (as I strongly believe in Workers democratic control of industry and commerce), obviously, tones through such text can be mis-interpreted but I strongly believe that point is as valid as the day I posted it. That a said, the Irish working class are but a portion of the World and but a portion of Europe. We are all tied as a whole and what effects me, will, doubtless as default effect workers of the EU as a whole, those who have drafted such the laws of economic tyranny have, Ultimately deprived us of many freedoms...so Devrim, both of us are on the same page of the same book my friend.

[Devrim]

Irrelevant, The British Market is very much tied to the Irish one these days. The success of the bourgeoisie over here is also the success of the bourgeoisie over there. There is a Massive amount of British Investment in Ireland - this extends to almost every arm of Irish economic activity. If the Irish economy vanished tomorrow, the UK Government would find itself in a bit of economic chaos - particularly on its Western Seaboard area's.

Irrelevant to what? I made a typo in the post and it said 205 instead of 20%, which was being claimed. My point was that British exports to Ireland aren't as large as was being claimed. I think that is valid.


They're probably counting the occupied counties as part of the UK.

Which technically they are.


Obviously, there is no unity there.. Actually, the even frank suggestion of unity would make the working class in this country laugh - however the fact remains that the government did terrible things to the workers that should NEVER be forgiven. I don't believe the tone of my post even suggested such an aspect (as I strongly believe in Workers democratic control of industry and commerce), obviously, tones through such text can be mis-interpreted but I strongly believe that point is as valid as the day I posted it. That a said, the Irish working class are but a portion of the World and but a portion of Europe. We are all tied as a whole and what effects me, will, doubtless as default effect workers of the EU as a whole, those who have drafted such the laws of economic tyranny have, Ultimately deprived us of many freedoms...so Devrim, both of us are on the same page of the same book my friend.

I am not so sure. First I can't imagine saying that 'we cannot de-value our currency'. It does imply that there is some common interest. Who does 'we' mean? Secondly, I think that the crisis gripping Ireland now is absolutely massive. What does devaluing the currency mean in this context? If you look at the major devaluations, and resulting hyper-inflation that we have experienced in this country, they too are massive attacks upon the working class. I doubt that anybody who hasn't lived through them can really understand what they are like even though they may grasp it on an intellectual level.

If we look at the financial crisis of 2001 when Turkey devalued its currency, and see what wiki has to say we see a pretty grim reality:


Turkey's financial and political instability necessitated a positive government stance to assuage fears of a total economic collapse. However, on February 19, 2001, Prime Minister Ecevit argued with President Sezer and left the meeting saying that "This is a serious crisis." [10] This was a poor choice of words resulting form a heated debate and made a bad situation worse. Stocks plummeted and interest rates reached 3000%. Liras were sold for dollars and euros causing the Turkish Central bank to lose $5 billion of its reserves. Ecevit's statement in such unstable, unpropitious times looked like an admission of defeat by the government to many.
The crash triggered even more economic turmoil. 14,875 workplaces closed in the first eight months of 2001, the dollar rose to 1,500,000 liras, and income inequality had risen from its already high level [11].

It doesn't really paint the full picture though. Imagine that you are sitting in the pub in the afternoon, as I was at the time of the 2001 crash, and the waiter comes over and asks you if you would like to pay the bill now, because they are just about to double the prices. Imagine that overnight your salary is only worth 40% of what it was the previous day. Imagine the situation when outlets selling goods with fixed prices (e.g. petrol and cigarettes) stop selling them because they know that the price will be doubled by the state on the next day. Imagine getting your salary and going out to change it into hard currency during your tea break because if you waited until lunch time it was worth less. Imagine everytime you asked somebody how much something cost you immediately followed it up with the question 'when?' Imagine that over a period of nine years, before they knocked six zeros of the currency, I ended up earning as many millions an hour as I had previously in a month.

And the Turkish crisis of 2001 was pretty small fry compared to what is happening now, and you think that to devalue the currency would be an answer. If Ireland had an 'independent' currency at the moment devaluation would be leading to wholesale sales and speculation.

I don't think that it is just a question of 'tone' but rather one of a completely different outlook. For us, the question is always the defence of working class wages, conditions and living standards, whereas for you it seems to be a question of offering alternate policy for the bourgeoisie:


Of course this could all have been avoided by simply allowing Anglo-Irish bank to die a death on its own without a bail-out, without bailing out the other banks, by never allowing the rip-off property market to hit the levels it did and by never joining the European single currency (we cannot de-value our currency now).

Devrim

[Edelweiss]

I think it's a bit too easy to make the EU evil foreign powers now trying to patronize Ireland.

The whole problem in Ireland is also a problem of the Irish system itself. It's been a neo-liberal model nation now for decades with low business taxes and hardly any regulation of the finance sector. The breakdown now is also a breakdown of neo-liberal wet dreams and delusions.

Of course all calls for social cutes are wrong and should be struggled against. But demands of higher business taxes (by France and Germany) in Ireland are totally reasonable IMO.

[Manic Impressive]

I think it's a bit too easy to make the EU evil foreign powers now trying to patronize Ireland.

The whole problem in Ireland is also a problem of the Irish system itself. It's been a neo-liberal model nation now for decades with low business taxes and hardly any regulation of the finance sector. The breakdown now is also a breakdown of neo-liberal wet dreams and delusions.

Of course all calls for social cutes are wrong and should be struggled against. But demands of higher business taxes (by France and Germany) in Ireland are totally reasonable IMO.

So it is ok for one foreign power to dictate policy to a less powerful nation? Ireland attracted businesses to base themselves there because of low corporation tax which came at the expense of richer nations like UK, Germany and France. By bringing Irish corporation tax in line with the rest of them they are effectively closing down a source of income into the Irish economy at a time when they're broke and will now be facing a massive loan with plenty of interest to pay off. This will only serve to hurt the working people of Ireland even more it is certainly not in their interests. Part of Neo-Liberalism is the subjugating of other nations through economic means it is Imperialism without the soldiers.

But fuck it, it sounds like i'm defending low tax for corporations there is only one solution to this problem and we all know what that is.

[Edelweiss]

So it is ok for one foreign power to dictate policy to a less powerful nation? Ireland attracted businesses to base themselves there because of low corporation tax which came at the expense of richer nations like UK, Germany and France. By bringing Irish corporation tax in line with the rest of them they are effectively closing down a source of income into the Irish economy at a time when they're broke and will now be facing a massive loan with plenty of interest to pay off. This will only serve to hurt the working people of Ireland even more it is certainly not in their interests. Part of Neo-Liberalism is the subjugating of other nations through economic means it is Imperialism without the soldiers.

Arguing for neo-liberal policies (like low business taxes) because "it's in the interest of the working people" and otherwise would cost national jobs, companies would move elsewhere etc. is the oldest trick in the neo-liberal book though.

[ComradeOm]

UK government export figures seem to suggest that this is not the case:


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2010/2/24/1267034170741/UK-exports-graphic-002.jpgNote that the same figures state that Ireland is the UK's fifth largest export market. It exports more to a nation of five million than it does to India and China combined


The whole problem in Ireland is also a problem of the Irish system itself. It's been a neo-liberal model nation now for decades with low business taxes and hardly any regulation of the finance sector. The breakdown now is also a breakdown of neo-liberal wet dreams and delusions.

Of course all calls for social cutes are wrong and should be struggled against. But demands of higher business taxes (by France and Germany) in Ireland are totally reasonable IMOYes, because social-democracy and raising corporation tax is the answer...

No Irish person, or at least no Irish comrades, need to be told that the previous system was unsustainable, corrupt and destined for disaster. However the idea that this was an isolated case of Anglo-Saxon neo-liberalism is a European myth. Ireland's 'light touch' regulatory regime would not have been possible without the colossal wave of capital poured into Dublin by European banks (German banks are liable for up to 130b, IIRC) in order to take advantage of this very absence of regulation. So this tut-tutting from Europe is pretty galling

If it were not for this vast sum of capital sunk into the Irish market then, like Greece, the EU would have absolutely no interest in bailing us out. This not not a bail-out for Ireland, it is one for the German, French and British banks that want to recover their losses. If the politicians can get their pound of flesh at the same time, and let's not pretend that the corporation tax is anything but political booty, then so much the better

[Manic Impressive]

Arguing for neo-liberal policies (like low business taxes) because "it's in the interest of the working people" and otherwise would cost national jobs, companies would move elsewhere etc. is the oldest trick in the neo-liberal book though.
In the case of Ireland it plainly is in the interest of the working people because if they had higher taxes those companies would base themselves in the UK, France or Germany. Why are they in Ireland? because it has low corporation tax. What happens if you raise that tax? the companies relocate to where they do most of their business.

Why do you think the UK is so insistent on that condition? because they want to help or because they stand to profit from it.

Edit: I thought I'd look for the recent quote from George Osborne regarding Irelands corporation tax but it seems he's had a bee in his bonnet about it for years.

from 2008

Why oh why are we losing business to the Irish? The simple answer is - corporation tax. Surely it does not take a financial genius like Gordon Brown (joke) to work out that if companies say they are moving from the UK to Ireland because of "concerns over the [UK] tax environment" that we must follow the Irish lead and cut our corporation tax. Corporation tax in Ireland currently stands at 12.5% - which is less than half of the UK's 28%. The "Celtic Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger)" is thought by many economists to be a result (at least in part) of Ireland's low corporation tax.
http://dailyreferendum.blogspot.com/2008/08/george-osborne-uk-is-losing-business-to.html

[Devrim]

Note that the same figures state that Ireland is the UK's fifth largest export market. It exports more to a nation of five million than it does to India and China combined

Well yes, I am well aware of that, but there is a difference between that and being the biggest market as was claimed.

Devrim

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

All 'aid' from the IMF comes with huge strings attached, usually in favour of those giving the aid, in this case the UK.

[Devrim]

So it is ok for one foreign power to dictate policy to a less powerful nation? Ireland attracted businesses to base themselves there because of low corporation tax which came at the expense of richer nations like UK, Germany and France. By bringing Irish corporation tax in line with the rest of them they are effectively closing down a source of income into the Irish economy at a time when they're broke and will now be facing a massive loan with plenty of interest to pay off. This will only serve to hurt the working people of Ireland even more it is certainly not in their interests. Part of Neo-Liberalism is the subjugating of other nations through economic means it is Imperialism without the soldiers.

But fuck it, it sounds like i'm defending low tax for corporations there is only one solution to this problem and we all know what that is.

Look where you end up with this argument. You know yourself that it is problematic.

It is not the prime concern of communists if "one foreign power...dictate[s] policy to a less powerful nation". This will always happen within capitalism. The task of revolutionaries at the present moment is not to propose equality between nations, or to come up with bourgeois political answers to the current problems. The task of revolutionaries at the moment is in arguing for the direct defence of jobs and conditions and the best way to go about this. To a certain extent, the rejection of all ideas such as pulling out of the European Union or whatever is a part of this. Revolutionaries must argue that workers must struggle directly for their own interests.

Devrim

[Manic Impressive]

Well it's not just the UK the IMF loan is funded by EU countries including the UK and then the UK is giving a "bilateral" loan of 7 Billion as well. I think

[Edelweiss]

In the case of Ireland it plainly is in the interest of the working people because if they had higher taxes those companies would base themselves in the UK, France or Germany. Why are they in Ireland? because it has low corporation tax. What happens if you raise that tax? the companies relocate to where they do most of their business.


Like I said before. This is just classic neo-liberal rhetoric to push anti-working class policies forward. With this kind of arguments most European welfare states has been wrecked.


Yes, because social-democracy and raising corporation tax is the answer...

No Irish person, or at least no Irish comrades, need to be told that the previous system was unsustainable, corrupt and destined for disaster. However the idea that this was an isolated case of Anglo-Saxon neo-liberalism is a European myth. Ireland's 'light touch' regulatory regime would not have been possible without the colossal wave of capital poured into Dublin by European banks (German banks are liable for up to 130b, IIRC) in order to take advantage of this very absence of regulation. So this tut-tutting from Europe is pretty galling

If it were not for this vast sum of capital sunk into the Irish market then, like Greece, the EU would have absolutely no interest in bailing us out. This not not a bail-out for Ireland, it is one for the German, French and British banks that want to recover their losses. If the politicians can get their pound of flesh at the same time, and let's not pretend that the corporation tax is anything but political booty, then so much the better

Of course, like in the case of Greece the bailout is totally in the interest of the major EU powers. Of course there is hypocrisy and of course German, French and British banks did profit from the Irish ultra-neo-liberal system before. I'm not denying this. Nevertheless I don't think it's up to Irish or European leftists now to defend this system IMO. Fighting and defending social reforms worldwide is part of class struggle. Defending the interests of the national bourgeoisie is not.

[Manic Impressive]

Look where you end up with this argument. You know yourself that it is problematic.

It is not the prime concern of communists if "one foreign power...dictate[s] policy to a less powerful nation". This will always happen within capitalism. The task of revolutionaries at the present moment is not to propose equality between nations, or to come up with bourgeois political answers to the current problems. The task of revolutionaries at the moment is in arguing for the direct defence of jobs and conditions and the best way to go about this. To a certain extent, the rejection of all ideas such as pulling out of the European Union or whatever is a part of this. Revolutionaries must argue that workers must struggle directly for their own interests.

Devrim

Yeah you're right that's why I put in the last bit. We should still oppose imperialism in whatever form and these loans amount to a form of economic imperialism.

But there is only one solution and hopefully the people will have enough motivation to do something about it.

[El Rojo]

how many times have banks and financial institutions been bailed out since the beginning of the financial crisis? I have lost count. I wonder if the cappies actually know that they are giant money holes or if they genuinely hope that they are salvageable?

[Manic Impressive]

Like I said before. This is just classic neo-liberal rhetoric to push anti-working class policies forward. With this kind of arguments most European welfare states has been wrecked.

So higher tax from significantly less corporations is better than lower tax from more corporations? How does having foreign corporations base themselves in your country and pay tax there to avoid paying tax in their original countries hurt the working class of that country? It would hurt the working class of the other country because of the tax revenue being paid at a lower cost elsewhere.


I think it's a bit too easy to make the EU evil foreign powers now trying to patronize Ireland.

The whole problem in Ireland is also a problem of the Irish system itself. It's been a neo-liberal model nation now for decades with low business taxes and hardly any regulation of the finance sector. The breakdown now is also a breakdown of neo-liberal wet dreams and delusions.

Of course all calls for social cutes are wrong and should be struggled against. But demands of higher business taxes (by France and Germany) in Ireland are totally reasonable IMO.


I don't think it's up to Irish or European leftists now to defend this system IMO. Fighting and defending social reforms worldwide is part of class struggle. Defending the interests of the national bourgeoisie is not.

[howblackisyourflag]

Theres a massive union protest on saturday in dublin. Does anyone think there will be riots?

[ComradeOm]

Theres a massive union protest on saturday in dublin. Does anyone think there will be riots?I'd be surprised; would go against the basic mood of the country. Well actually, I should say that I hope there's no trouble - we want to bring people on to the streets, not scare them away

Anyways, I should be there. Details on the ICTU site (http://www.ictu.ie/)

[Manic Impressive]

I was surprised by what happened in London I didn't think it was the mood of the country but I'm so glad I was wrong. I think part of the reason might have been the expectation of police brutality which we saw during the G20 protests and like we saw in Dublin a couple of weeks ago. For arguments against violence in demonstrations see the Riots in London thread.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Can Sinn Fein be Ireland's Die Linke?

[pastradamus]

Irrelevant to what? I made a typo in the post and it said 205 instead of 20%, which was being claimed. My point was that British exports to Ireland aren't as large as was being claimed. I think that is valid.

Well its safe to say that the UK Government has a Huge interest in the Irish Market. I dont care really what export figures are, that said 15.3bn is a massive amount of exports. But really what im getting at is that one should not underestimate nor play down the role and size of UK foreign Investment or exports in/to the Irish Market.


I am not so sure. First I can't imagine saying that 'we cannot de-value our currency'. It does imply that there is some common interest.
Obviously, I didn't mean to imply that there was a common interest between the IMF, ECB, Irish Bourgeoisie and Irish working class.


Who does 'we' mean?
The Irish working class.


Secondly, I think that the crisis gripping Ireland now is absolutely massive. What does devaluing the currency mean in this context?
Basically, Im talking in a terms of years BEFORE this happened (still, I would never have been in favour of bailing out anglo-irish bank - which could have averted most of this crisis), not now as it would easily bring about hyperinflation. But a devaluation of our system by the capitalist government, could have help evade the earlier crisis' (playing devils advocate here so take it easy).



If Ireland had an 'independent' currency at the moment devaluation would be leading to wholesale sales and speculation.

And the Euro wasn't doing that? That isn't happening now with the IMF trying to install its neo-liberal control???


I don't think that it is just a question of 'tone' but rather one of a completely different outlook. For us, the question is always the defense of working class wages, conditions and living standards, whereas for you it seems to be a question of offering alternate policy for the bourgeoisie:

Im a Trade Unionist - its what I do.Working class wages, Conditions and living standards....its pretty much a descriptive role for someone like me. But sorry, Im simply an organ of the capitalists withing the Working class camp....still though....we do a lot more in the way of improving working class pay,conditions and living standards than you in the left communist camp do. Im just going to ignore the rest of your absurd accusation after that.

[pastradamus]

Can Sinn Fein be Ireland's Die Linke?

Well I dont know much about 'Die Linke' but I wouldn't call Sinn Fein Left wing at all. I dont see them as any different to the Ruling Fianna Fail-Green Party coalition.

They talk the talk and preach leftist ideas but still only went off and introduced water charges and Taxes in Northern Ireland.

[pastradamus]

Theres a massive union protest on saturday in dublin. Does anyone think there will be riots?

Cant see it happening seeing as it has been called by that Traitor of the Union movement David Begg.

[pastradamus]

I'd be surprised; would go against the basic mood of the country. Well actually, I should say that I hope there's no trouble - we want to bring people on to the streets, not scare them away

Anyways, I should be there. Details on the ICTU site (http://www.ictu.ie/)

Absolutely, It was interesting to see how Sky news derailed the actual point and purpose of that London Protest the second things got violent.

[Devrim]

Well its safe to say that the UK Government has a Huge interest in the Irish Market. I dont care really what export figures are, that said 15.3bn is a massive amount of exports. But really what im getting at is that one should not underestimate nor play down the role and size of UK foreign Investment or exports in/to the Irish Market.

I'd agree. Nor should you overstate it though.



I am not so sure. First I can't imagine saying that 'we cannot de-value our currency'. It does imply that there is some common interest.Obviously, I didn't mean to imply that there was a common interest between the IMF, ECB, Irish Bourgeoisie and Irish working class.

Who does 'we' mean? The Irish working class.

On yes, how could I have forgotten. In the Irish constitution before they joined the Euro, was the infamous article 16.496c.z1 thoroughly despised by the capitalists, which allowed the working class, through a democratic mechanism of open discussion and votes in its workplaces to adjust the value of the currency, bring in devaluation, or buy on the world markets to strengthen the currency.

Don't be absurd. The working class couldn't devalue the currency in any way. It is a decision taken by the bourgeoisie, specifically the government. When you were speaking of 'we' you were obviously speaking of the 'nation'.


Basically, Im talking in a terms of years BEFORE this happened (still, I would never have been in favour of bailing out anglo-irish bank - which could have averted most of this crisis), not now as it would easily bring about hyperinflation. But a devaluation of our system by the capitalist government, could have help evade the earlier crisis' (playing devils advocate here so take it easy).

I am taking it easy. I am not the sort of person who gets in any way upset by post on a webforum. Whether the government could have taken steps to avert this crisis is an interesting question in a hypothetical way, and here though you are very clear that it is the actions of the 'capitalist government', and not of the working class or 'we'.

My point is that the whole argument you were making before was completely on the terrain of bourgeois politics.



If Ireland had an 'independent' currency at the moment devaluation would be leading to wholesale sales and speculation. And the Euro wasn't doing that? That isn't happening now with the IMF trying to install its neo-liberal control???

Wholesale currency sales and speculation on the currency? No it isn't happening. You aren't experiencing hyper inflation. That doesn't mean that it is playing out well for the working class in any way. The question for workers though is not which economic mechamisms the 'capitalist government' should have used.


we do a lot more in the way of improving working class pay,conditions and living standards than you in the left communist camp do.We don't claim to do things for the working class. The working class has to do things for itself. On the point of trade unions though, my experience of them in strikes that I have been on involves them screwing workers and making agreements with the boss behind their backs than 'improving working class pay,conditions and living standards'.

Devrim

[LeninBalls]

When I was younger I never thought I'd actually be affected by politics. But these cuts will make life a lot harder for college students with lower class parents like myself (and of course everyone else in the country). I'm a bit scared to be honest. I'm barely pulling through college financially as it is.


The Irish don't take no shit, there will definitely be some resistance to this right ??

I always thought no. I've always viewed the Irish, at least in the Republic, to be apathetic. But recently there's been a lot of discontent. There was a protest in my city organized by my uni recently, about 3,000 people showed up alongside the protests in Dublin. Alongside the fact the amount of times I've been to the pub and overheard people talking about what a mess the country is in and how we need to do something "untraditional" about it, which is what I assume they're implying something more radical than protests.

So it's somewhat optimistic, but eventually this will amount to nothing without a strong left in Ireland.

[pastradamus]

On the point of trade unions though, my experience of them in strikes that I have been on involves them screwing workers and making agreements with the boss behind their backs than 'improving working class pay,conditions and living standards'.

Devrim

I'd Agree. Most trade unions behave in a collusive manner like that. Thats why I left my old trade union a few years back (SIPTU) and joined one which the newspapers descirbed as "a radical left-wing trade union" - We dont collude with them.

[Coggeh]

We don't claim to do things for the working class. The working class has to do things for itself. On the point of trade unions though, my experience of them in strikes that I have been on involves them screwing workers and making agreements with the boss behind their backs than 'improving working class pay,conditions and living standards'.

Devrim
Your experience is the wholesale experience of Irish workers over the past 15 years, being sold out time and time again. Tomorrow Irish workers will take to the streets in their tens of thousands to oppose the budget and the bailout but workers have already come on vocally on radio, newspapers etc etc saying march against the budget not for the unions but for ourselves basically, this is down to the treachery of the leadership time and time again and we will see the likes of David Begg (ICTU president) standing outside the GPO tomorrow making a big speech, "oh tut tut, stupid government, tut tut , we need a general election." Because of such ination as this huge sectors of workers view trade unions now as a part of the establishment to be scolded and avoided.

It is an absolute disgrace, but we as socialists must be active in the unions , in the big unions such as Siptu. We need to put pressure on the leadership of those unions to take real action put also agitate inside such unions to get the rank and file opposed to any deals with IMF, the government and the employers. We need to show workers that an election will not solve anything and only a full scale 24 hour strike of public and private workers followed by more intense action is the only means of change.

[Devrim]

Your experience is the wholesale experience of Irish workers over the past 15 years, being sold out time and time again.

I don't quite see why you say 15 years. The first time I was personally 'sold out' in a strike was back in the 80s, and it wasn't new then either.


It is an absolute disgrace, but we as socialists must be active in the unions , in the big unions such as Siptu. We need to put pressure on the leadership of those unions to take real action

Why must we be active in the unions? For a start the whole idea of 'putting pressure on the leadership of those unions' is a nonsense. We all know that the leadership of these unions is not about to organise any real action, and that if they do, it will be to regain control of actions that are already happening. The most absurd example I have ever seen of this was argument was SWP students on one of our picket lines in the 1980s. They were arguing that we needed to get the union to call a national strike. The people I worked with were a bit bemused by all this, and were trying to explain to the students that we already had one.


but also agitate inside such unions to get the rank and file opposed to any deals with IMF, the government and the employers.

Why inside unions. Surely it is inside workplaces that is important.


only a full scale 24 hour strike of public and private workers[/B] followed by more intense action is the only means of change.

I think this whole think of 'putting pressure' on the unions will serve to do nothing more than demoralize workers. It starts from taking the power out of their hands. It says that you can't organise for yourselves, and you have to put pressure on the unions to do it for you. It is in no way a strategy designed to increase class confidence.


I'd Agree. Most trade unions behave in a collusive manner like that. Thats why I left my old trade union a few years back (SIPTU) and joined one which the newspapers descirbed as "a radical left-wing trade union" - We dont collude with them.

I presume that you are in the IWU then. I think the question that is raised by organisations like this is whether the problem with the unions is in the leadership or in something else. We have 'red unions' here in Turkey. They are comparatively small, but probably come near to the size of the total unionized workforce in the Republic of Ireland. The main one started out as a radical break from the main yellow trade union, but today behaves in pretty much the same way as the yellow unions. The fate of their leaders exemplifies the change well. The first one was assassinated. The one before this was locked up for stealing the members money to build his villa.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't quite see why you say 15 years. The first time I was personally 'sold out' in a strike was back in the 80s, and it wasn't new then either.
You are correct Devrim - the sell-outs began from the 1979 post office strike onwards when the union bureaucracy began taking action against shop-stewards committees. The left almost won a majority in the post office union in the mid-1980's but then David Begg acted to remove most of the democratic structures within the union to prevent it happening again. The CPSU is the only union at the moment that has a solid left-wing block within it.



Why must we be active in the unions? For a start the whole idea of 'putting pressure on the leadership of those unions' is a nonsense. We all know that the leadership of these unions is not about to organise any real action, and that if they do, it will be to regain control of actions that are already happening. The most absurd example I have ever seen of this was argument was SWP students on one of our picket lines in the 1980s. They were arguing that we needed to get the union to call a national strike. The people I worked with were a bit bemused by all this, and were trying to explain to the students that we already had one.
To start with - the SWP had and continue to have little understanding of how to operate within and orientate towads unionised workers. However, in times of relative industrial peace and economic growth there is little need to be active wthin a trade union. In times of severe crisis workers will have no choice but to radicalise the trade union movement. In some unions elements of the bureaucracy will swing to the left, in others it will simply be removed and replaced with a left leadership, in some others it may be necessary to simply abandon them and establish new unions. However, the current organisations will be tested in the heat of battle before the working class decide what is necessary - and it is significantly easier to retake control of a trade union than to establish a new one.

Finally - the argument for 'putting pressure on the leadership' is not about getting them to do anything - but about forcing them out of their positions.



Why inside unions. Surely it is inside workplaces that is important.
The trade unions are an integral part of the workplace. What will actually happen is that non-unionised workers will start to join trade unions and then be actually forced into a battle (with other activists) into changing the leadership.



I think this whole think of 'putting pressure' on the unions will serve to do nothing more than demoralize workers. It starts from taking the power out of their hands. It says that you can't organise for yourselves, and you have to put pressure on the unions to do it for you. It is in no way a strategy designed to increase class confidence.
Again I think you are mis-interpreting this - workers organising themselves IS the building of a union. As I said the unions will be tested in the heat of class battles and workers will replace the leadership as they are found wanting. Again with the CPSU in Ireland - the general secretary is at loggerheads with the lefts on the executive and is currently trying to manoeuvre his way out into a job with ICTU.



I presume that you are in the IWU then. I think the question that is raised by organisations like this is whether the problem with the unions is in the leadership or in something else. We have 'red unions' here in Turkey. They are comparatively small, but probably come near to the size of the total unionized workforce in the Republic of Ireland. The main one started out as a radical break from the main yellow trade union, but today behaves in pretty much the same way as the yellow unions. The fate of their leaders exemplifies the change well. The first one was assassinated. The one before this was locked up for stealing the members money to build his villa.

The IWU is actually a poor example - it is not really any further to the left of any of the main unions. It was formed by disgruntled members of other unions - not as a result of the class struggle and as such has never built a combatitive lass-based organisation. In reality it appears to have become little more than a haven for some left republicans.

[Devrim]

You are correct Devrim - the sell-outs began from the 1979 post office strike onwards when the union bureaucracy began taking action against shop-stewards committees.

Do you think that before 1979 the unions didn't sell people out?


In times of severe crisis workers will have no choice but to radicalise the trade union movement. In some unions elements of the bureaucracy will swing to the left, in others it will simply be removed and replaced with a left leadership, in some others it may be necessary to simply abandon them and establish new unions. However, the current organisations will be tested in the heat of battle before the working class decide what is necessary - and it is significantly easier to retake control of a trade union than to establish a new one.

Well there is another 'choice' rather than 'radicalising the trade union movement'. It is the road that has been taken by workers whenever there are massive struggles. The 'choice' is mass meetings, elected strike committees, and ultimately workers councils, which invariably end up having to struggle against the unions themselves.

During these struggles unions will of course 'radicalise', and come out with lots of left sounding rhetoric. It doesn't mean that their function will in any way change, and much of this 'left' rhetoric will act as a cover for them attacking workers' struggles. I don't really think that putting in 'left leaderships' in any way changes the role of the unions.


Finally - the argument for 'putting pressure on the leadership' is not about getting them to do anything - but about forcing them out of their positions.

To put in new leaders who will behave in the same way?


The IWU is actually a poor example - it is not really any further to the left of any of the main unions. It was formed by disgruntled members of other unions - not as a result of the class struggle and as such has never built a combatitive lass-based organisation. In reality it appears to have become little more than a haven for some left republicans.

Thanks for the information. I don't really keep up on politics in the South any more.

Devrim

[Jolly Red Giant]

Do you think that before 1979 the unions didn't sell people out?
Not what I said - I said that post-1979 there was the systematic dismantling of shop-stewards committees through the destruction of union democracy.



Well there is another 'choice' rather than 'radicalising the trade union movement'. It is the road that has been taken by workers whenever there are massive struggles. The 'choice' is mass meetings, elected strike committees, and ultimately workers councils, which invariably end up having to struggle against the unions themselves.
The struggle isn't 'against' the trade unions - it is 'within' the trade unions and 'against' the bureaucracy.




To put in new leaders who will behave in the same way?
You are assuming that all trade union leaders will behave in exactly the same way - not matter what their political outlook is - if I could dare to suggest, that's a little on the cynical side.



Thanks for the information. I don't really keep up on politics in the South
You're welcome.

[Broletariat]

You are assuming that all trade union leaders will behave in exactly the same way - not matter what their political outlook is - if I could dare to suggest, that's a little on the cynical side.

This statement appears to hold the same premise as most reformists or Capitalist apologist arguments when they say "We just need the right leaders in power and it'll be okay."

I mean I know there's a difference, all leaders that get into political power will basically be the same, but if we're relying on getting lucky with that perfect person as a trade union leader or what have you, it seems like the emancipation of the working class has become an act of the trade union leaders.

[Leo]

You are assuming that all trade union leaders will behave in exactly the same way - not matter what their political outlook is - if I could dare to suggest, that's a little on the cynical side.

The point is that all trade-union leaders will act in order to defend their interests, which are based on their position. It is where they are and their interests, not their political outlook which fundamentally determines their actions.

Similarly can be argued that all industrialists, or all generals, or all bureaucrats and statesmen will act in order to defend their interests.

Saying this isn't cynicism - it is marxism.

[aty]

100000-150000 in demonstration in Dublin today...

[ed miliband]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/27/ireland-bailout-angry-demonstrators-dublin


Marching in the rally was Irish builder Mick Wallace who has had to lay off 100 workers due to the crash in the construction industry. Wallace said it was time the Irish became more militant.

"We should be more like the French and get onto the streets more often. Because our politicians go over to Europe and tell the EU that our people do not demonstrate, they don't take to the streets. It's time we changed that and openly opposed what is going on," he said.

[Mindtoaster]

Fucking hell, 100,000 demonstrators

Thats like four percent of the Free State's population

[fionntan]

http://www.u.tv/News/Irish-protestors-march-against-cuts/644743d3-41d7-41e6-b5d2-57c095db3b99

[The Grey Blur]

i wish devrim wouldn't derail threads with his left-communist fantasies. it's really tiring. nations exist and so do unions. good luck re-shaping reality, but in the meantime stay out of threads where people are discussing these issues because everything just gets sidetracked into those pointless debates.

[ZeroNowhere]

You could have quite easily voiced your concerns about this thread being derailed and the fact that it may be better if this discussion were split or ended without platitudes and non-arguments. Do you really imagine that being patronising and dismissive is more likely to persuade Devrim here, or are you essentially just trying to get a cheap shot in at the risk of further derailing the thread through provocation?

[The Grey Blur]

This statement appears to hold the same premise as most reformists or Capitalist apologist arguments when they say "We just need the right leaders in power and it'll be okay."

I mean I know there's a difference, all leaders that get into political power will basically be the same, but if we're relying on getting lucky with that perfect person as a trade union leader or what have you, it seems like the emancipation of the working class has become an act of the trade union leaders.
look, i hate having to be dragged into this stupid debate as i said above, but this is such mystical nonsense. power corrupts apparently - regardless of political affiliation and regardless of the democratic measures put in place. why? how? and your final point is such rubbish too, noone is talking about the emancipation of the working class, we're talking about reclaiming trade unions which is a necessary precursor towards that.

please, can a mod split this debate. and any stupid debates over national self-determination too. it's inevitable.


Do you really imagine that being patronising and dismissive is more likely to persuade Devrim here, or are you essentially just trying to get a cheap shot in at the risk of further derailing the thread through provocation?
a little from column A, a little from column B. i think it's a seperate debate and will inevitably derail, it's not specific to the thread 'ireland confirms bailout deal', and i'd rather those contributing offered something constructive.

[Devrim]

i wish devrim wouldn't derail threads with his left-communist fantasies. it's really tiring. nations exist and so do unions. good luck re-shaping reality, but in the meantime stay out of threads where people are discussing these issues because everything just gets sidetracked into those pointless debates.

If you don't want to discuss it nobody is forcing you to. If you think that the answer for the working class lies in arguing for national solutions such as calling for withdrawal from the Euro, or calling upon union leaders to organise a 24 hour stoppage that is your opinion.

It is not mine and I don't think that questioning these sort of tactics is 'derailing' anything.

Of course trade unions and nations exist. It doesn't mean they have anything to offer the working class.

Devrim

[Devrim]

You are assuming that all trade union leaders will behave in exactly the same way - not matter what their political outlook is - if I could dare to suggest, that's a little on the cynical side.

It would be a cynicism with a strong base on the empirical evidence though.

Devrim

[Leo]

nations exist and so do unions. And so does states, armies, the bourgeoisie, capitalism and so forth. Yes. What we are saying indeed would be a fight against phantoms, a fantasy, but only had they not existed.


good luck re-shaping realityYou are effectively saying good luck with the revolution. At least you are more or less honest that you see no part for yourself in it.


but in the meantime stay out of threads where people are discussing these issues because everything just gets sidetracked into those pointless debates.I'm sorry, but you are in no position to tell people to stay out of debates.


please, can a mod split this debate. The question of the unions is central to the trajectories of the class struggle in the future. The fact that you don't want hearing other posters opinions on this is not a reason for splitting the thread.


and any stupid debates over national self-determination tooIf a debate over self-determination does start, I will indeed split the thread.

[pastradamus]

I presume that you are in the IWU then. I think the question that is raised by organisations like this is whether the problem with the unions is in the leadership or in something else. We have 'red unions' here in Turkey. They are comparatively small, but probably come near to the size of the total unionized workforce in the Republic of Ireland. The main one started out as a radical break from the main yellow trade union, but today behaves in pretty much the same way as the yellow unions. The fate of their leaders exemplifies the change well. The first one was assassinated. The one before this was locked up for stealing the members money to build his villa.

I am in the IWU. We have grown from a small localised union in Cork City (about 1000 members) to a much bigger national union (especially in Cork, Northern Ireland and Dublin and parts of Leinster). We reject the main unbrella organisation of ICTU and our union has its roots in the old Butchers Unions here in Cork City - who were know for their Radically Left postion when all the major unions were negociating with employers.

The IWU's Main premise throughout its existance has been a non-collusive stance with any employer. That is to say that while others such as SIPTU, UNITE and Mandate will hammer out deals with employers and negociate contracts with the said employers to increase their own membership, we do not negociate with employers nor do we try to find any commonground with them. In saying that, I cant exactly see us buying a villa anytime soon.



The IWU is actually a poor example - it is not really any further to the left of any of the main unions. It was formed by disgruntled members of other unions - not as a result of the class struggle and as such has never built a combatitive lass-based organisation. In reality it appears to have become little more than a haven for some left republicans.

Complete Nonsense. As a member of the Socialist party Id have expected better from you JRG. Your party does after all freely avail of our offices in Cork for your meetings and your Councillor Mick Barry is Head of our Home-helps Workers section. I WAS a disgruntled member of another union when I joined - as did many more. I became involved not only to defend my own rights, but also the rights of other workers. Not only is there a union movement here in the form of defending workers rights with regards to employers but also we regularly organise protests and Demonstration's around the Country (the recent protest against the closure of a hospital in wicklow) - So I believe we are a class-based organisation as we stand for Workers (the Working class) and the union leaders of the IWU have a paypacket no bigger than your average Cleaner takes home - there is no €150k payouts from our organisation (unlike ICTU). As for the whole republican aspect, I know a few republicans in the IWU but there really is not that many of them and the Organisation contains many people favouring many different Leftest groups so to say the IWU is Left-Republican is simply unfair.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Comrade, will the IWU consider affiliating with the World Federation of Trade Unions?

[pastradamus]

Comrade, will the IWU consider affiliating with the World Federation of Trade Unions?

No, I dont think I could ever see them doing that.

[Red Monroy]

There are several topics on Ireland, but I guess this commentary (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185) by Anne Mc Shane best fits here:


No to nationalist response

There is no solution to the Irish crisis within its own borders. Anne Mc Shane calls for internationalism and solidarity

http://cpgb.org.uk/images/1004185.jpg

The political turmoil that is gripping Irish society is unprecedented. With the government humiliated into accepting a bail-out from the International Monetary Fund and European Union, it is collapsing under the stress of internal splits and disarray. A general election is imminent.

The heady days of the Celtic tiger are long gone - obsession with consumption and property ownership replaced by immiseration and insecurity. Working class people were encouraged to borrow large sums of money to live the dream. Now the credit bubble has exploded, they are left jobless and, increasingly, homeless. The social dislocation is intense.

Following weeks of lies, spin and pathetic attempts at cover-up, the government finally admitted what everybody knew. There will be a bail-out - of almost €100 billion - of Ireland’s financial sector. After warning us for the last two years that the consequences of not submitting to austerity measures would be a take-over by the IMF and a loss of sovereignty, the day has finally arrived. Despite protestations to the contrary by taoiseach Brian Cowen and his finance minister, Brian Lenihan, the IMF and EU are now firmly in charge of the Irish economy.

The situation has been so appalling that the arrival of the IMF seemed to some to promise relief. Recent opinion polls have shown a desperate hope for stability. But, of course, the IMF-EU package will mean even more draconian attacks. There will be very strict conditions on the refinancing of the banks, resulting in yet more pain for the working class. Ireland is to be a model of austerity for Europe. This bail-out is aimed at protecting and stabilising the euro zone and disciplining the economy - in other words, even more strict controls on spending. The future is very bleak unless our class takes effective action to defend itself.

The four-year plan which was announced by the government on November 24 makes clear just how difficult that outlook is if the government - backed, of course, by the EU and IMF - gets its way. The bail-out is contingent on the enforcement of measures by this and all future governments. It includes cutting the minimum wage by €1 an hour - meaning that somebody working a 39-hour week could receive just €298 before deductions. Rents in Ireland are on average €200 a week, so there is not a lot left over. Social welfare will also suffer another round of cuts - by 14% over the four years - with further major reductions in health and education spending. The one thing that remains stable is corporation tax - at 12% - which is the third lowest in the EU and the pride of establishment politicians. This four-year plan, coming ahead of another savage budget on December 7, will generate yet more anger and despair. The lives of the working class are utterly expendable, while low taxes for the capitalists remain untouched.

Instability has and will continue to intensify, as the outcry and disgust at the government creates splits and divisions in the ruling elite. The Fianna Fáil/Green government is already in deep crisis, with the Greens unexpectedly pulling the plug on the coalition by calling for an election in January. Cowen’s shaky leadership is evidenced in that he has been forced to agree to an election - but only after the December budget has been voted through the dáil. Enormous weight is being brought to bear by the EU and IMF, who are horrified at the possibility of even further instability for the euro resulting from the uncertainty of a general election. The budget must be passed and the government must stay in power to do it.

But despite these pressures the political collapse seems unstoppable. There is mutiny in the ranks of Fianna Fáil, with many calling for Cowen to resign. Still others are threatening to vote against the budget and demanding a general election now. The government could in fact be saved by the opposition party, Fine Gael, which - keen to show that it is a safe pair of hands for capitalism and stay onside with the IMF - has hinted that it might abstain or even vote for the budget.

The loss of economic sovereignty and the shame of the IMF intervention has been a major feature in the controversy. The media have been full of wrath at the erstwhile ‘soldiers of destiny’ of Fianna Fáil, which has sold out ‘our’ independence. This spirit of injured patriotism was reflected in the Irish Examiner on November 19 - the day after the arrival of the IMF in Dublin - with a front cover parody of the 1916 Proclamation of Ireland, decrying the desecration of the republic at the hands of greed and cronyism. The proposed loan from the British government has added to the humiliation.

Left response

But some on the left have also taken up this theme. The Communist Party of Ireland has been the most openly nationalistic - with a call for the defence of family, community and country against the IMF/EU. The CPI demands the “return of fiscal powers from Brussels to the Irish people” and the establishment of a state investment bank, linked to the “establishment of an all-Ireland economic development agency under democratic control”, with “social control of all natural and marine resources ... by the people.”[1] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185#1)

The Socialist Party has also emphasised nationalisation under the democratic control of “working people” as the solution. A recent article on the SP’s website calls for nationalisation of the banks and financial institutions and argues that we can overcome “the budget deficit by taxing the super-rich and big business, and policies that will create economic growth”.[2] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185#2) But that is simply nonsensical. Ireland is a tiny part of a world capitalist economy in deep crisis. We are completely and totally bound up with this crisis. The reason the EU/IMF are so desperate to impose a bail-out is because our insolvency is contagious and has seriously destabilised the euro - with Portugal and Spain looking like they will be the next to experience economic failure. Ireland’s economy is completely dependent on outside finance. There is absolutely no way that an Irish government of any type can solve this budget deficit, let alone create an island of socialism.

The Socialist Workers Party also argues in a similar fashion that Ireland - presumably under the leadership of the working class - can solve the current problems. In a November 22 online article it argues that “we should not despair. This is a wealthy country. The rich have €151 billion in assets and €40 billion in cash. There are over 33,000 multi-millionaires in this small country of ours. It doesn’t have to be this way.”[3] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185#3) In other words, the rich can be made to pay and we can draw on all of Ireland’s natural resources to build an alternative economy.

The problem is that these ‘schemes for socialism’ create the idea and expectation that there can be some Irish solution. They dovetail in with nationalism and create a barrier to the working class making the necessary links with other workers in Europe and beyond. It is true that the SP calls for European-wide solidarity and for a day of action across the continent. But the continued assertion that we can build a national alternative to the present crisis creates dangerous illusions in nationalism - and is a complete dead-end for the working class.

The only way we can move forward as a class in the present situation is by building our organs of struggle - and in particular by building a mass revolutionary party. We must have a programme for what the working class needs to transform itself and build its own alternative. Therefore we should, for instance, struggle for a minimum wage of €700 a week - the very least that is needed. We should also struggle for the unemployed to receive this same income - why should they be penalised because of capitalism’s crisis? Many unemployed people have mortgages for which they receive no state assistance to pay. They are facing repossession and homelessness. We need to defend them against banks and bailiffs - by asserting our needs over those of capitalism.

We also need to look to creating links with workers across Europe - and in particular in Britain. Anti-cuts committees should be formed to defend our rights and conditions and to make common cause with workers and students in Britain. George Osborne is well able to bail out his own class by offering loans to Irish banks. Instead of being peeved about such initiatives from the capitalist class we need to take our own internationalist initiatives.

There is, of course, a debate to be had about the legacy of 1916. Fianna Fáil has always presented itself as the rightful heir of James Connolly and Patrick Pearse. Now that legitimacy has been seriously undermined and may lead to the terminal decline of the party. We know, of course, that Connolly had very different views to that of Fianna Fáil. He struggled for socialism and was a brave and heroic fighter. But his socialism most certainly had its limitations. He idealised the past before the English conquest and had a very romantic view of Ireland. His legacy has implications for the left in Ireland today which we need to overcome. Above all, we need to look beyond our borders when it comes to constructing an alternative. We cannot foster any illusions in an Irish solution to the present crisis.

United Left Alliance

The formation of the United Left Alliance (ULA) has marked an important and welcome move to build unity among the left. Its public launch is to take place on Friday November 26 and it is set to stand up to 20 candidates in the general election. Some of them, like Joe Higgins and Clare Daly of the Socialist Party, could actually win seats. The expectation is that there will be a huge shift to the Labour Party in the coming election, resulting in a Fine Gael-Labour coalition. Both of these parties accept the austerity criteria in one form or another, so the struggle for the working class will most certainly continue. To have ULA TDs would be a step forward - and would bring working class politics, however insufficient and flawed, onto the floor of the dáil.

The fact that the ULA says it wants to create a “mass alternative” that goes beyond the next election is also to be welcomed.[4] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185#4) The Socialist Party emphasises this and calls for individuals to join and become active. It expresses its unhappiness at the “SWP’s view that socialist politics would put people off from voting for candidates or from getting involved in a left alliance”[5] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004185#5) - the SWP refused to include a call for socialism in the programme. The result is a rightist version of the already reformist politics of the two groups, where the call is for working people to unite with unemployed, pensioners and students to “change society” - into what, we are not told. The ULA’s platform contains principled demands, including complete opposition to any cuts and to all housing repossessions. Also there is a demand for all migrants to be given the same rights as Irish workers - and a call for the unity of workers across Europe.

But it is the glue that holds these demands together that is the ultimate problem. The programme calls - unsurprisingly, given the main organisations involved - for “democratic public ownership” of banks, land and construction companies, so as “to use them for the benefit of people, not the profit of the few”. It asserts that “Ireland is not a poor country” and demands that the wealth created during the boom be put to the use of the people.

These ideas create the expectation that a ULA government will sort out Ireland’s economic problems through proper planning on the basis of need. It ignores the reality of the EU/IMF and finance capital and the fact that an isolated Irish socialist republic would have absolutely no chance of survival in a world dominated by capitalism. That is certainly what history teaches.

Notes


CPI newsletter, November 19.
www.socialistparty.net/component/content/article/1-latest-news/551-oppose-the-imfeu-backed-attacks (http://www.socialistparty.net/component/content/article/1-latest-news/551-oppose-the-imfeu-backed-attacks)
www.swp.ie/news/ireland-dont-despair-protest-strike-occupy/3793 (http://www.swp.ie/news/ireland-dont-despair-protest-strike-occupy/3793)
www.unitedleftalliance.org/wordpress/programme-of-the-united-left-alliance-building-a-real-political-alternative (http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/wordpress/programme-of-the-united-left-alliance-building-a-real-political-alternative)
www.socialistparty.net (http://www.socialistparty.net/)

[Die Neue Zeit]

No, I dont think I could ever see them doing that.

Are there any issues preventing affiliation?

[Thirsty Crow]

It is very interesting to see two or three rhetorical points juxtaposed to one another:


It expresses its unhappiness at the “SWP’s view that socialist politics would put people off from voting for candidates or from getting involved in a left alliance”[5] - the SWP refused to include a call for socialism in the programme. The result is a rightist version of the already reformist politics of the two groups, where the call is for working people to unite with unemployed, pensioners and students to “change society” - into what, we are not told.

Connected to the insistence on the defensive rhetoric of fighting the cuts and insisting on the "mass party" as an organ of class organization, which takes up the task of entering the parliament completely.

First, it seems to me that any notion of a mass party (being equated with the real movement) has no basis in the electoral strategy.
Second, there is a clear link between SWP's reformism and the rhetorical call for fighiting the cuts. How would the basically defensive politics of resistance be transformed into an active one of, gradual or swift, takeover of political power from the bourgeoisie - it is not clear.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The rhetoric of the "mass party" is in fact cover for a popular front. A real party, which is a real movement and vice versa, would consider spoilage campaigns as well as any electoral campaign deemed appropriate.

[pastradamus]

Are there any issues preventing affiliation?

Well its never been brought up. The IWU is doing well enough on its own so far so I'd imagine they want to keep it that way.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Complete Nonsense. As a member of the Socialist party Id have expected better from you JRG. Your party does after all freely avail of our offices in Cork for your meetings and your Councillor Mick Barry is Head of our Home-helps Workers section. I WAS a disgruntled member of another union when I joined - as did many more. I became involved not only to defend my own rights, but also the rights of other workers. Not only is there a union movement here in the form of defending workers rights with regards to employers but also we regularly organise protests and Demonstration's around the Country (the recent protest against the closure of a hospital in wicklow) - So I believe we are a class-based organisation as we stand for Workers (the Working class) and the union leaders of the IWU have a paypacket no bigger than your average Cleaner takes home - there is no €150k payouts from our organisation (unlike ICTU). As for the whole republican aspect, I know a few republicans in the IWU but there really is not that many of them and the Organisation contains many people favouring many different Leftest groups so to say the IWU is Left-Republican is simply unfair.
Pastradamus - I suggest that you read what I wrote instead of shooting from the hip.
1. I stated the IWU is not any further to the left than the main unions. That is accurate. I would suggest the lower rates for the union officials has more to do with a lack of funds than anything else. For years many of the officials in unions in the building trades were earning substantially less that the workers they represented - it didn't make them left-wing.
2. I stated the IWU was formed by disgruntled members of other unions - not as a result of the class struggle and as such has never built a combatitive lass-based organisation. Your own post demonstrates that this is true - "I WAS a disgruntled member of another union when I joined - as did many more". The IWU to my knowledge has not been to the forefront of any workers struggle since its foundation - and most certainly did not emerge from the class struggle.
3. My reference to 'left republicans' finding a home there could be overstating the position - I was speaking anecdotally, all the members of the IWU that I personally know (and that is not a huge amount) were / are all left republicans.

Now I am not dismissing the efforts of the IWU - it is not in the same mode as the existing larger unions - but it certainly has not set the working class world on fire since its foundation.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well its never been brought up. The IWU is doing well enough on its own so far so I'd imagine they want to keep it that way.

I just wanted to raise the issue because of the potential for going beyond national frameworks.