More "Right-Wing" - Capitalism or Fascism ?

[CHE with an AK]

Obviously both are reactionary and repugnant - but which do you believe is more "right-wing"? Which is more reactionary? and Why?

This arose out of a debate I was having with a "anarcho-libertarian" type of guy who was arguing that fascism was actually to the left of capitalism, to which I disagreed. His point revolved around the "populist" nature that you sometimes find with fascism - although centered around nationalism or racism.

Moreover, it is popular in America for right-wing morons to say that since Nazi's were "National Socialists" that they are then at least "Socialists" - and thus to the left of Capitalists - which I disagree with.


The popular Americanized model from "left to right" usually goes ...

Communist - Socialist - Fascist - Capitalist - Anarchist

But I believe this is WRONG ... as I think nearly everyone here would.

Thus how would you diagram this out ?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Fascism is a poltical ideology, capitalism is an economic system.

[WeAreReborn]

Why is Anarchism to the right? Anarchism is a left wing ideology that is often is hand in hand to Socialism or Communism. Even when it isn't it still is left wing unless you consider ancaps Anarchist but I don't.

[Tablo]

I voted equally right-wing since a fascist state still operates under a capitalist economy.

[dernier combat]

I'd group them according to which class they serve. Fascism and capitalism serve the class interests of the Bourgeoisie (although some would argue that the National Socialist variant of Fascism was primarily a Petit-Bourgeois ideology) and in turn only ever maintain the current class structure. Anarchism, communism and socialism all serve the class interests of the working class - although I don't know why you make a distinction between communism and socialism (as presumably in this context you are not referring to "utopian socialism"). The Left-Right scale is one of the most ineffective ways of comparing differing ideologies ever devised.

[Nolan]

Liberal capitalism varies in its position. It runs from social democracy on the center left to neoconservatism on the far right and beyond.

Fascism also varies, though not nearly as much. It is always far right, but you often get labor friendly wings of fascist movements.

It's important to note that capitalism is only the economic framework, not the ideology itself.

[Dimentio]

I would claim that fascism has dropped outside of the scale today. To understand the left-right-wing dichotomy, we must realise that the forces which represented the pure interests of the financial bourgeoisie - the market liberals and liberal conservatives - in most European countries consisted of the centre. To the right, they had parties associated with the Church, the military-colonial establishments, the bureaucracy and the remnants of the nobility, while they on their left had working class parties.

While the right-wing parties weren't anti-capitalist (though some were), their main goal wasn't to preserve capitalism, but to utilise it to preserve their own privileges. Hence the conflict between industrial and financial capital (and the antisemitism as well, since Jews were associated both with liberal values and the financial capital).

In the USA, such right-wing parties have never existed (except for in the form of the Southern Democrats during and after the Civil War), and what in the USA was considered the right-wing would in Europe have been considered the centre during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

One consequence of the Second World War was the destruction of the conservative and reactionary political movements in Europe, and the establishment of a liberal - rather than conservative - hegemony. The remnants of the European right, like Front National, are very much weaker and no longer a force to be able to contest for the control over society.

[learningaboutheleft123]

Obviously both are reactionary and repugnant - but which do you believe is more "right-wing"? Which is more reactionary? and Why?

This arose out of a debate I was having with a "anarcho-libertarian" type of guy who was arguing that fascism was actually to the left of capitalism, to which I disagreed. His point revolved around the "populist" nature that you sometimes find with fascism - although centered around nationalism or racism.

Moreover, it is popular in America for right-wing morons to say that since Nazi's were "National Socialists" that they are then at least "Socialists" - and thus to the left of Capitalists - which I disagree with.


The popular Americanized model from "left to right" usually goes ...

Communist - Socialist - Fascist - Capitalist - Anarchist

But I believe this is WRONG ... as I think nearly everyone here would.

Thus how would you diagram this out ?

What the hell ? how is fascism in the middle before capitalism, and I wouldnt consider capitalism a political ideology. Also, how can anarchism be right wing ?

This is how I diagram political ideologies....

Communism---Socialism---Liberalism---Conservatism---Fascism.

[Old Man Diogenes]

I voted equally right-wing since a fascist state still operates under a capitalist economy.

Something I've always found odd, as they usually start off with a vaguely anti-capitalist policy.

[L.A.P.]

Why is Anarchism to the right? Anarchism is a left wing ideology that is often is hand in hand to Socialism or Communism. Even when it isn't it still is left wing unless you consider ancaps Anarchist but I don't.

I think he/she is saying that because most Americans would agree with that spectrum since to them communism is complete dictatorship that is similar to fascism while anarchism is the opposite. However, this is the most accepted spectrum among political theorists and virtually the official one;
communism-anarchism-socialism-social democracy-progressivism-modern liberalism-classical liberalism-libertarianism-conservatism-capitalism-monarchism-fascism-evil

The specific order is really just my opinion but you get the main idea.

[Rotfront]

You can't say if capitalism or fascism is more right wing, because it is difficult to compare these two things. There can be a capitalist economy in a fascist state and the same economy in a bourgeois democracy. So you can only say that fascism is more right wing than a bourgeois democracy.

[Redliberation]

You can't say if capitalism or fascism is more right wing, because it is difficult to compare these two things. There can be a capitalist economy in a fascist state and the same economy in a bourgeois democracy. So you can only say that fascism is more right wing than a bourgeois democracy.

Exactly. Fascism and the bourgeois democracy use the same economic system which is called capitalism. Some fascist countries like Nazi-Germany abandoned the free market however.

It is important to understand:

fascism is a political ideology
capitalism is a means of production
market economy is a means of distribution

[Il Medico]

Fascism and capitalism are not on equal footing. Fascism is merely a form that capitalism can take (shaped around a corporatist economic model, authoritarian political system, and strong nationalistic sentiments).

[PoliticalNightmare]

Fascism does not idealise a free market economy so it is only centre-right, so to speak, economically. Classical liberalism, for instance would be far right as it describes a free market and reduced state and supposedly greater civil liberties yet is very different from fascism. There would appear to be some misconsceptions on this thread. In any case, I don't believe in placing ideologies rigidly on an over-simplified Left-Right Scale (the political spectrum is not 2 dimensional or even 3 dimensional however I would point you in the direction of the political compass which is at least slightly more accurate than a Left-Right scale. Google it.)

As the poster above me correctly notes, fascism is "shaped around a corporatist economic model, authoritarian political system and strong nationalistic sentiments" and can also be very different to the sheer multitude of right wing ideologies which are just as divided as those on the left wing. Careful here, though because the reasoning of some on the right wing is that socialism equates to state control over the control and fascism is therefore a branch of socialism. It is necessary to research these ideologies correctly to be able to refute such claims.

Also, as others have correctly identified, capitalism is an economic system based around the private accumulation as such not a political ideology as such. Right wing ideologies are those which wish to preserve the capitalist economy and can hence be described as pro-capitalist. Such pro-capitalist ideologies would include liberalism, conservatism, etc.

[Red Commissar]

I don't approve of the left-right model of politics to be honest, or the attempts to turn it into four axises along the same lines (Political Compass). Things are far more complicated than that, and I think it's point less to use "left" or "right" to distinguish political ideologies. More over capitalism is an economic concept, so it's hard to compare it to an ideology like Fascism.

I think a more relevant issue would be to point out to apologists how Fascism is still ultimately rooted in capitalism. It has become increasingly fashionable among certain circles to associate Fascism and Socialism together because of historical ties of some figureheads (Mussolini) and making surface analysis of the two (zomg no free market and oppression !!11!).

[ZeroNowhere]

From what I recall, Nazi Germany was capitalist. So was Pinochet's Chile. So was Mussolini's Italy. In fact, I am beginning to sense a pattern here.


This is how I diagram political ideologies....

Communism---Socialism---Liberalism---Conservatism---Fascism
I generally view the left-right spectrum, which is essentially a continuum between various positions on capitalism, something like this:

Shit---Piss---Fuck---****---Cocksucker---Motherfucker---Tits.

Us socialists, on the other hand, are totally out of left field.

On the other hand, I suppose that I could add the sexual socialists to the last three categories on the right, in which case I would have managed to make a form of De Leonism even more sectarian than the last one. Not that the last one was extraordinarily so, but it has nonetheless got a legendary reputation for such, so we may as well capitalize on it.

[Gravedigger01]

Capitalist is more right wing in my vew because Fascism has several left-wing and right wing views wrapped up in a Totalitarian and Nationalist agenda while Capitalism is completely right wing.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

[PoliticalNightmare]

Capitalist is more right wing in my vew because Fascism has several left-wing and right wing views wrapped up in a Totalitarian and Nationalist agenda while Capitalism is completely right wing.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

You see capitalism is an economic system. What you really mean is conservatism, classical liberalism, libertarianism and laissez-faire capitalism (as an ideology) are to the right of fascism. Otherwise I agree except that fascism enforces a branch of the capitalist economic system, namely nationalistic corporatism.

[Revolution starts with U]

Left/right is a facade. It is impossible to pin down in any real sense. I find fascism far more autocratic, so that immediately pushes it right

[Thirsty Crow]

What kind of a question is this?
Fascism is a form of capital management and management of wider social issues.
So if you're asking is liberal democracy or fascism more "right-wing" - well, it depends on the concrete historical conditions, but the outright ban on strike actions, which was a key component of Fascist labour policy, seems to point in the right direction...:D

[dernier combat]

Something I've always found odd, as they usually start off with a vaguely anti-capitalist policy.
Predictably, to gain the support of the working class - after all, fascism only does become a major force during times of economic crisis and/or intensified class struggle. Fascists have always tried to claim that the capitalists and bankers do not belong to "the nation" that the workers belong to - which also seems to prove that nations are not directly-observable, autonomous, socio-economic entities, but mere, unscientific perceptions. Besides, there has never been much in the way of anti-capitalism (as we understand it) from fascists:

Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.

Socialism was an unfortunate word altogether and that if people have something to eat, and their pleasures, then they have their socialism.

[DmitriVasiliyevichMorozov]

Lenin once said once said that "Fascism is Capitalism is decay". So, I'm going to say that they're equally right-winged.

[YouSSR]

Who cares? The question is totally meaningless, right and left are just generalizations which are used to give legitimacy to both sides in bourgeois democracy. There is only correct and incorrect for making the world a better place, and fascism is horrible for the world.

[Agnapostate]

That political spectrum, while sadly common, is incoherent and ignorant of political philosophy. Fascism has always had capitalism at its base, but typically a center-left form of capitalism, not an extreme rightist form(Pinochet's regime could theoretically be described as an exception). While never implemented in the U.S., its greatest exponent was the Roman Catholic priest and talk radio demagogue Charles Coughlin, who promoted "social justice," and was allied with the authoritarian populist Huey Long, who promoted a degree of wealth redistribution. More statist forms of capitalism are potentially the most insidious forms that exist, because their limited worker and consumer protections have the effect of reducing labor militancy and adoption of radicalism.


Fascism is a poltical ideology, capitalism is an economic system.

There is no precise division between politics and economics that is not arbitrary in some way.

[Revolutionair]

IMO fascism is a form of capitalism. Capitalism means that the means of production are privately owned. In a fascist society, the means of production are privately owned. Fascism is a superstructure for capitalism, others being: social democracy, constitutionalism.

[William Howe]

Capitalism in its basic form isn't really right-winged, just private ownership, as Socialism in its basic form isn't left-winged, just equal distribution.

Fascism is radical socio-capitalism mixed with violent nationalism and rightism.

[Jalapeno Enema]

It's hard for me to decide when you're comparing capitalism and fascism.

I'm going to have to agree with Red Commissar; the current model of left to right is quite simplified; I feel it's more a desire to put things away into neat little piles that can be graphed then to explain the ideologies.

When you leave theory and hit the streets, you find that the real world is hard to graph.

One question I would have to address before trying to answer the question is what kind of political spectrum graph best explains politics? A four-way compass comes closer, but not enough for my tastes.

While I don't agree with her, I had a political science instructor years ago who preached a circular rather then linear political spectrum. The argument is that in the middle you have moderates, and as you inch to the left or right the ends warp and meet again where you have fanatics, which are more alike then they are like the moderates.

The people who claim Nazis were socialists are incredibly ignorant, but there are many who see themselves in the middle (they are not), and fanatics to the left, fanatics to the right, rather then distinguish between groups.

Again, I have to emphasize I disagree with the circular spectrum more then I do the linear, I'm just trying to put it out there; I think that's how most of the U.S. actually sees politics.

Rush Limbaugh sees the world through a circular spectrum, anyway.
(edit: I don't seem to be able to post my link. If anybody cares I have a link to Rush Limbaugh ranting about Stalin and Hitler meeting at the other end of the circular spectrum)