Question for CBGB-ML members

[Red Future]

You relatively recently met North Korean delegates according to the Red Youth blog,what are the party's relations with the DPRK?? ,simply interested about this :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

You relatively recently met North Korean delegates according to the Red Youth blog,what are the party's relations with the DPRK?? ,simply interested about this :)

I'm not a member of the CPGB-ML, but I'm in good relations with comrades part of their party. Here's a document discussing their visit to the DPRK:

http://cpgbml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=656

And here's a 6 part video on them discussing the DPRK as a whole recently:

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Long Live the CPGB-ML! Long Live the DPRK!

[Volcanicity]

You relatively recently met North Korean delegates according to the Red Youth blog,what are the party's relations with the DPRK?? ,simply interested about this :)
The CPGB-ML have close ties with the DPRK and actively seek to make awareness of them through thing's like cultural exchanges.If you go to the CPGB-ML website and read the issue's of their publication Proletarian-the link to it is in the post above-then you'll find where they stand on issue's such as the DPRK,Palestine,Ireland,Cuba etc.But the video's posted above will answer your question and are a very interesting watch.

[bailey_187]

people from the DPRK embassy often go to CPGB-ML events

[Apoi_Viitor]

Hint: The North Korean State only shows the CPGB-ML the city of Pyongyang... they aren't allowed to see the 'real' North Korea...

Here's an example of Pyongyang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNUlZwGEygM

And here was a video smuggled out of North Korea (which ended up being broadcasted on South Korean television), which shows the rest of North Korea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITBqRSMBWaM

[penguinfoot]

people from the DPRK embassy often go to CPGB-ML events

I often think about how the low-ranking members of the Chinese embassy must argue amongst themselves over who has to go and pretend to be a communist in front of that weird sect with about ten members that keeps saying China is a glorious socialist paradise.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hint: The North Korean State only shows the CPGB-ML the city of Pyongyang... they aren't allowed to see the 'real' North Korea...

Here's an example of Pyongyang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNUlZwGEygM

And here was a video smuggled out of North Korea (which ended up being broadcasted on South Korean television), which shows the rest of North Korea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITBqRSMBWaM

Why do I have skepticism about a video that claims to show footage taken in the "big bad police state" of the DPRK, where somehow a "tourist" sneaked past all military, & took plenty of "revealing" footage of not just little kids, but also military guards, without them noticing?

[Cultural Revolution]

because you think what you think regardless, of what is shown to you, comrade.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Why do I have skepticism about a video that claims to show footage taken in the "big bad police state" of the DPRK, where somehow a "tourist" sneaked past all military, & took plenty of "revealing" footage of not just little kids, but also military guards, without them noticing?

There's a good amount of video footage that has been smuggled out of North Korea...

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=391

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=399

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=427

[Volcanicity]

There's a good amount of video footage that has been smuggled out of North Korea...

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=391

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=399

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=427
Are you using these pictures to condemn the DPRK ?You're going to have to do better than this I've seen worse conditions than this in London.Nobody is saying it's a perfect Paradise,I just wish people would see the achievement's and advances that the DPRK have made instead of trying to find faults, and the same goes for Cuba and Venezuela.The people who try and find fault's with these Countries neglect to look around and see how bad conditions are in their own Countries.There are areas of the UK that are like hell on earth and this is the so called First-World.

[NewSocialist]

Nobody is saying it's a perfect Paradise,I just wish people would see the achievement's and advances that the DPRK have made instead of trying to find faults

If this represents any measure of success:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyicsVcd28c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_268_pBvPs&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFxvvd-l6-w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93mxwmGYa-Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI93iLkNnV8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7RtFZCpyv0&feature=related

I'd hate to see their failures...

Let me guess, this is all just Western bourgeois propaganda?

[Volcanicity]

Did I mention bourgeois propaganda in my previous post?No I did'nt.Did I say everything in the DPRK was a success?Again no I did'nt.I was referring to people like you who put down everything that has been achieved in Socialist countries.If you want to focus on the negative's that's up to you it's one of the reason's the Left is in the state it is. We should be encouraged by the good that's been achieved while not being blind to the bad,and that goes for the present as well as the past.And also only one of those links you posted are available to watch in the UK.

[maskerade]

feels like these guys are preaching to the converted, and doesn't seem biased at all. The day tourists can wander around freely in DPRK i'll be less sceptical.

[Crux]

What communists, of any tendency, would have active contact with the "worker's party" of north korea? Or maybe the CPGB-ML are really tight on funds?

[scarletghoul]

Hint: The North Korean State only shows the CPGB-ML the city of Pyongyang... they aren't allowed to see the 'real' North Korea...
Actually if you'd bothered to watch the videos you'd see they visited several places outside of Pyongyang.

[Chimurenga.]

These threads are always interesting because they truly reveal which side posters like "Apoi_Viitor" and 'NewSocialist' are on.

Anyways, these videos of the trip to the DPRK by the CPGB-ML are great. They make me want to book a trip there immediately. Sadly, I'll be dry financially for some time now.

[durhamleft]

this is absolutely disgraceful.

socialism requires democratic workers control and north korea is nothing like that. I can understand justification of Cubas human rights records in comparison with those of the west but north korea is extraordinarily oppressive and your support of it is absolutely disgusting.

ps, a good friend and comrade of mine who lived in dprk and was absolutely disgusted by supposed lefties who support such oppression

[NewSocialist]

These threads are always interesting because they truly reveal which side posters like "Apoi_Viitor" and 'NewSocialist' are on.

Fuck you. Considering a decaying totalitarian hellhole, governed by a dictatorial semi-monarch who demands endless praise, to be "socialism" is completely insane (about as insane as the leadership of the CPGB-ML).

My "side" is the advancement of democracy, human progress and social justice. You, on the other hand, are a credulous worshiper of any state that *claims* to uphold Marxism-Leninism and anti-imperialism (no matter how oppressive those regimes may be). If you have such a soft spot for the North Korean regime, why not defect? I'm sure they'd love to have you (even though you'll be racially segregated from society and unfree to leave).

[Chimurenga.]

Let me guess, this is all just Western bourgeois propaganda?

Considering the documentary you posted, as made by and produced by National Geographic, which is majority owned (75%) by the News Corporation, then yes. It is Western bourgeois propaganda and you have no problem supporting that than anything else.

Some "Socialist" you are.

[The Red Next Door]

These threads are always interesting because they truly reveal which side posters like "Apoi_Viitor" and 'NewSocialist' are on.

Anyways, these videos of the trip to the DPRK by the CPGB-ML are great. They make me want to book a trip there immediately. Sadly, I'll be dry financially for some time now.

same here.

[Kassad]

My "side" is the advancement of democracy, human progress and social justice.

So is the American military. :)

[NewSocialist]

And also only one of those links you posted are available to watch in the UK.

The reason the left is in the state it's in is because there are people like you that would present North Korea as an admirable form of "socialism."

Just look up the "Inside North Korea" on YouTube, I believe National Geographic made the documentary.

[NewSocialist]

So is the American military. :)

Hilarious.

[Volcanicity]

The reason the left is in the state it's in is because there are people like you that would present North Korea as an admirable form of "socialism."

Just look up the "Inside North Korea" on YouTube, I believe National Geographic made the documentary.
No the reason the left is in the state it is in is because so called Socialist's like yourself are to willing to see the bad in everything and just focus on that.And as I said those Videos are'nt available to watch in the UK because of copyright,which is just as well because I do'nt care what National Geographic have to say.

[Chimurenga.]

Fuck you. Considering a decaying totalitarian hellhole, governed by a dictatorial semi-monarch who demands endless praise, to be "socialism" is completely insane (about as insane as the leadership of the CBGB-ML).

And here it is, folks, the moment we've all been waiting for. It's so nice to see such unwavering liberalism.


My "side" is the advancement of democracy, human progress and social justice.

Your side is a demonization of the people of Democratic Korea, their love and trust in their leaders and their country, and their path towards Socialism.


You, on the other hand, are a credulous worshiper of any state that *claims* to uphold Marxism-Leninism and anti-imperialism (no matter how oppressive those regimes may be).

I'm not a worshiper of anything. I am, however, a country that in the face of constant imperialist threat and economic blockades, provides their people with the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. Especially in a time when of economic downturn in the US where many brothers and sisters, most of whom I don't know, are being kicked out of their house, fired and/or laid off, made homeless, or are brutalized by the police and/or incarcerated without trial.


If you have such a soft spot for the North Korean regime, why not defect? I'm sure they'd love to have you (even though you'll be racially segregated from society and unfree to leave).
If you have such a soft spot for the North Korean regime, why not defect?

:laugh:

Wow. The "love it or leave it" argument? I'll just end it here.

[Chimurenga.]

No the reason the left is in the state it is in is because so called Socialist's like yourself are to willing to see the bad in everything and just focus on that.And as I said those Videos are'nt available to watch in the UK because of copyright,which is just as well because I do'nt care what National Geographic have to say.

As I have already pointed out, National Geographic Television is owned in majority by the News Corporation/Rupert Murdoch. So it's no surprise to see this blatantly anti-Communist crap and not surprising to see pseudo-Socialists flaunting it.

[NewSocialist]

Considering the documentary you posted, as made by and produced by National Geographic, which is majority owned (75%) by the News Corporation, then yes. It is Western bourgeois propaganda and you have no problem supporting that than anything else.

Some "Socialist" you are.

Break out the tin foil hats, it's time for a good conspiracy theory!

Are you suggesting that every defector from North Korea is paid or manipulated by bourgeois interests into denouncing the regime? This is Holocaust denier logic.

Don't let me rain on your parade though. If socialism = praising the "dear leader" for his glorious "achievements" then I'll gladly admit you're more of a socialist than I.

[durhamleft]

Break out the tin foil hats, it's time for a good conspiracy theory!

Are you suggesting that every defector from North Korea is paid or manipulated by bourgeois interests into denouncing the regime? This is Holocaust denier logic.

Don't let me rain on your parade though. If socialism = praising the "dear leader" for his glorious "achievements" then I'll gladly admit you're more of a socialist than I.

Exactly.

I understand support of Cuba, can live with support of the USSR, but when people start going on about solidarity with North Korea and fucking China I band my head off walls and scream

[Chimurenga.]

Break out the tin foil hats, it's time for a good conspiracy theory!

There is no conspiracy theory here, just an objective fact.


Are you suggesting that every defector from North Korea is paid or manipulated by bourgeois interests into denouncing the regime? This is Holocaust denier logic.

Are you suggesting that every "defector" ever has told the complete truth and has never lied? Are you suggesting that major news networks, especially in the US, don't act on a class interest and a class bias? If you are suggesting these things, then you are absolutely deranged.

[Homo Songun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyicsVcd28c


Yeah man! Wrasslin is real too! :lol:

[The Red Next Door]

The reason the left is in the state it's in is because there are people like you that would present North Korea as an admirable form of "socialism."

Just look up the "Inside North Korea" on YouTube, I believe National Geographic made the documentary.

Yes, I saw it. So full of bias. Get me a marxist doc on how bad the DRPK is. Instead this doc from imperialist tv.

[DaringMehring]

Discussions like this can make one feel that perhaps the 20th century "communism" has wrecked all chance of socialism.

Supporters of regimes like NK like to think of themselves as the worst enemies of the bourgeoisie. In reality, if there was ever any socialist stirring among the people, the first thing the bourgeoisie would do would be to have them in the media discussing the "achievements" of NK.

[learningaboutheleft123]

CPGB-ML, great organisation !

[Manic Impressive]

Interesting video thanks for posting it.

I have an unrelated question for anyone involved with the CPGB-ML. What if anything are they doing to organize the workers during this time of attacks by the government?

[Wanted Man]

If you have such a soft spot for the North Korean regime, why not defect? I'm sure they'd love to have you (even though you'll be racially segregated from society and unfree to leave).

...and go back to Russia!


The reason the left is in the state it's in is because there are people like you that would present North Korea as an admirable form of "socialism."

Lol wut? Stop judging and whining about other people and go do something about your own image, Mr market socialist.

[L.A.P.]

Why do I have skepticism about a video that claims to show footage taken in the "big bad police state" of the DPRK, where somehow a "tourist" sneaked past all military, & took plenty of "revealing" footage of not just little kids, but also military guards, without them noticing?

Are you really trying to deny that North Korea is an authoritarian military dictatorship? You've got to be kidding me. I would like to see any trace of socialism in North Korea, I understand if you want to side with them on the fact that the United States are being typical imperialist assholes but how could you ever actually support North Korea claiming they are actually "socialist". Kim Jong-il lives like a fat fucking pig and he's just as bad as any top 1% CEO on Wall Street. I usually criticize Trotskyists for using trotskyism as a cop out to not defend any socialist state or leader to avoid controversy with other people but now I'm starting to see that Marxist-Leninists are just as fucking bad. You'll be as foolish to just simply defend a government as "socialist" even though they replaced any trace of communism and socialism with juche' and even if anyone doesn't support reactionary groups such as North Korea and Hamas, you guys throw around words like "liberal" and "revisionist" as if it's actually an offensive insult that would ever get to anyone. I know, I like the idea of a government not oppressing people and violating human rights, god I wish I could stop being such a stupid liberal and be a true communist like you who supports theocrats and statists. Jesus, you people are just plain fucking stupid.

[scarletghoul]

Are you really trying to deny that North Korea is an authoritarian military dictatorship?
North Korea is exactly that- an authoritarian military dictatorship of the proletariat.

[L.A.P.]

North Korea is exactly that- an authoritarian military dictatorship of the proletariat.

You mean the one where there is a dress code, only the most loyal of party members can enter the capital, and where the constitution states that Kin Jong-il is the "supreme leader". Well that's so pro-working class and egalitarian it just makes me want to cry in the sight of it;s beauty, this is exactly why I became a Marxist.

[scarletghoul]

Seriously what the fuck is this persistant bullshit about Pyongyang all being some kind of orchestrated potemkin show to deceive the outside world etc etc
It is a center of industry and has a large population.. people see pictures of it and conclude that it must be a deliberate masquerade to cover the truly evil nature of north korea.. this IS North Korea. Or, a part of it at least. Yes the capital probably is better than some other areas of the country, but it should always be regarded as part of the country. Why the fuck would any government invest all that money into a city just to decieve the rest of the world


You mean the one where there is a dress code,
like every other society and culture on earth.

only the most loyal of party members can enter the capital
Yes all 3 million people in Pyongyang are loyal party members..

where the constitution states that Kin Jong-il is the "supreme leader". Well that's so pro-working class and egalitarian it just makes me want to cry in the sight of it;s beauty, this is exactly why I became a Marxist.Yes because a cult of personality is so much more defining than any relations of production

[L.A.P.]

Seriously what the fuck is this persistant bullshit about Pyongyang all being some kind of orchestrated potemkin show to deceive the outside world etc etc
It is a center of industry and has a large population.. people see pictures of it and conclude that it must be a deliberate masquerade to cover the truly evil nature of north korea.. this IS North Korea. Or, a part of it at least. Yes the capital probably is better than some other areas of the country, but it should always be regarded as part of the country. Why the fuck would any government invest all that money into a city just to decieve the rest of the world


like every other society and culture on earth.

Yes all 3 million people in Pyongyang are loyal party members..
Yes because a cult of personality is so much more defining than any relations of production

There isn't a legal dress code in most other countries and even if there are restrictions of women not allowed to be topless in public is not comparable to having to wear a certain haircut to match the "socialist lifestyle" or wearing a certain outfit that only a private school would make you wear. You're only allowed in Pyongyang if you are a loyal party member so it's like one big gated community which is pretty bourgeoisie if you ask me. The relation of production distribute the wealth in a very unequal and hierarchal way and not at all socialist. North Korea is as socialist as the tea party movement is populist, I don't see why Marxist-Leninists feel the need to constantly defend every country as legitimately socialist especially North Korea. Again, I understand supporting it when opposing the US trying to influence North Korea but there is no other good reason to support them.

[Unclebananahead]

Doesn't it strike any of you PRO-DPRK types as unusual (and explicitly anti-socialist) that there seems to be a hereditary system (whether formal or not) of transfer of power?

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

North Korea is fucked up.

There's a bureaucratic class running things, a clear hierarchy, a supreme leader, and a hereditary system.

Fuck, they're not even Marxists they're fucking "Juche".

Does that mean everything the U.S/Corporate Media says about it is true? No.

But North Korea is not some shimmering example of what we as Leftists should desire.

[The Vegan Marxist]

North Korea is fucked up.

There's a bureaucratic class running things, a clear hierarchy, a supreme leader, and a hereditary system.

Fuck, they're not even Marxists they're fucking "Juche".

Does that mean everything the U.S/Corporate Media says about it is true? No.

But North Korea is not some shimmering example of what we as Leftists should desire.

Our "desires" are idealist by its very nature. I desire a shit loads of things that isn't possible. So I take what I can get, because each step I know is an advancement forward.

If I was living in a feudalist country, I'd be jumping in joy because capitalism overthrew feudalism. Why? Because, & Marx agreed with this statement, the transition from feudalism to capitalism is revolutionary in itself. Each step forward is revolutionary in itself. Where the DPRK stands now, when we compare to what it was before Kim Il-Sung & his comrades took over, it's more revolutionary than it's ever been.

Even if shit's going badly down there. Every single anti-DPRK piece of shit on this forum always falls down in the same line of blaming the North Korean govt. for said problems. Completely disregarding the fact that the US & allies are behind its economic downturn. Even if those videos were real, they are not victims of the North Korean govt. They're ultimately victims of US imperialist acts of aggression - increased sanctions.

So go ahead & all you "pure socialists" keep talking about how "un-Socialist" & "revisionist" the DPRK is. Khrushchev was a revisionist as well, but I'm putting money down that the Russian citizens would be on the frontlines right now, putting their lives on the line if they knew that Khrushchev could rule Russia again. The same goes for the DPRK. Fuck your pro-imperialist semantics.

[Lucretia]

And here it is, folks, the moment we've all been waiting for. It's so nice to see such unwavering liberalism.


So let me get this right: somebody is a liberal if they think that a tinpot dictatorship in North Korea isn't a socialist society? Kim Jong Il couldn't have said it better himself. Have fun trying to build your mass political movement by holding up North Korea as a showcase society. I'm sure you might get upwards of 20 or 30 people in a decade or two.

[Lucretia]

Yes, I saw it. So full of bias. Get me a marxist doc on how bad the DRPK is. Instead this doc from imperialist tv.

The source of the information is irrelevant. If there's anything inaccurate in the documentary in your view, tell us what it is and provide us with your proof. Spare us the constant ad hominem nonsense.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The source of the information is irrelevant. If there's anything inaccurate in the documentary in your view, tell us what it is and provide us with your proof. Spare us the constant ad hominem nonsense.

The CPGB have been to many other places than Pyongyang within the DPRK, as the videos that I've provided show. We even have the WHO (World Health Organization) who's inspected the DPRK, & yet not a single word of these "starving children" within their reports. For a mainstream organization, they really don't do a very a good job I guess in exposing the great crimes of the DPRK.

But other than all that, how about you provide evidence that what is shown in these videos are true? I mean, you can fap all you want over these video's, but upholding them as "evidence" holds just as much weight as "look! she's a reptilian!" do. Especially if the "look! she's a reptilian!" video is funded by an organization dedicated in demonizing anyone & everyone who says otherwise.

[Lucretia]

The CPGB have been to many other places than Pyongyang within the DPRK, as the videos that I've provided show. We even have the WHO (World Health Organization) who's inspected the DPRK, & yet not a single word of these "starving children" within their reports. For a mainstream organization, they really don't do a very a good job I guess in exposing the great crimes of the DPRK.

But other than all that, how about you provide evidence that what is shown in these videos are true? I mean, you can fap all you want over these video's, but upholding them as "evidence" holds just as much weight as "look! she's a reptilian!" do.

I didn't ask you what your experiences in North Korea were. I am aware of what your experiences were. Have you considered that that there are many other different experiences of life inside of North Korea beside the one you have had? Have you considered that the documentaries you are writing off as propaganda might in fact contain relatively accurate representations of how some people, perhaps many people, in that country live?

I repeat: do you have any evidence that those representations are fabricated?

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Our "desires" are idealist by its very nature. I desire a shit loads of things that isn't possible. So I take what I can get, because each step I know is an advancement forward.

Right, but North Korea isn't a step forward for democratic ownership of the means of production.




If I was living in a feudalist country, I'd be jumping in joy because capitalism overthrew feudalism. Why? Because, & Marx agreed with this statement, the transition from feudalism to capitalism is revolutionary in itself.

Just because Marx agreed with something doesn't mean it's true. The man had an intelligent critique of Capitalism, but his word isn't fucking gospel.


Each step forward is revolutionary in itself. Where the DPRK stands now, when we compare to what it was before Kim Il-Sung & his comrades took over, it's more revolutionary than it's ever been.

But North Korea hasn't been moving forward since it's revolution, nothing is happening. What are you expecting the elites of North Korea to just hand over the means of production? :laugh::laugh:

I'm not denying that a lot of good was done by the initial revolution in NK, I just don't think anything has come of it lately.



Even if shit's going badly down there. Every single anti-DPRK piece of shit on this forum always falls down in the same line of blaming the North Korean govt. for said problems. Completely disregarding the fact that the US & allies are behind its economic downturn. Even if those videos were real, they are not victims of the North Korean govt. They're ultimately victims of US imperialist acts of aggression - increased sanctions.

Yes, I agree sanctions have had a horrific impact on North Korea, and that's largely the root of the problems. North Korea is struggling against U.S Imperialism. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD ALL TALK ABOUT HOW GREAT NORTH KOREA IS. It's not some kind of shining example of socialist development, it's like the exact opposite of what we want to develop in a country. Unless, there was some memo that all the other Leftists got except me saying that cults of personality were something we were behind.



So go ahead & all you "pure socialists" keep talking about how "un-Socialist" & "revisionist" the DPRK is. Khrushchev was a revisionist as well, but I'm putting money down that the Russian citizens would be on the frontlines right now, putting their lives on the line if they knew that Khrushchev could rule Russia again. The same goes for the DPRK. Fuck your pro-imperialist semantics.

Well, yes North Korea isn't socialist, and I will keep talking about the flaws of the DPRK.

You keep putting up this false dichotomy of "Either you support the DPRK 100% or you believe that there should have been no North Korean revolution."

The only difference between us is that I critique North Korea where North Korea is not socialist. I guess if critiquing hierarchy, bureaucratic control of the means of production, hereditary rule, and dictatorship means I'm pro-imperialist, I guess I'm pro-imperialist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I didn't ask you what your experiences in North Korea were. I am aware of what your experiences were. Have you considered that that there are many other different experiences of life inside of North Korea beside the one you have had? Have you considered that the documentaries you are writing off as propaganda might in fact contain relatively accurate representations of how some people, perhaps many people, in that country live?

I repeat: do you have any evidence that those representations are fabricated?

Even if what the video's show is true,


Every single anti-DPRK piece of shit on this forum always falls down in the same line of blaming the North Korean govt. for said problems. Completely disregarding the fact that the US & allies are behind its economic downturn. Even if those videos were real, they are not victims of the North Korean govt. They're ultimately victims of US imperialist acts of aggression - increased sanctions.

And these monotonous "you don't have evidence, so I must be right" lines prove nothing. It's the same bullshit Christians use against atheists. Because the video is produced by an organization dedicated in demonizing the DPRK, because we have political organizations who's been there & stated the contrary, because we have mainstream health organizations who's been there & stated the contrary, I'm now rationally, justifiably sure that the video being presented is bullshit. Just like I'm rationally, justifiably sure the sun will appear tomorrow morning, just like I'm rationally, justifiably sure that God doesn't exist. Sure, I'm putting in some faith here on my statements, but under rational justification.

[Lucretia]

Even if what the video's show is true,



And these monotonous "you don't have evidence, so I must be right" lines prove nothing. It's the same bullshit Christians use against atheists. Because the video is produced by an organization dedicated in demonizing the DPRK, because we have political organizations who's been there & stated the contrary, because we have mainstream health organizations who's been there & stated the contrary, I'm now rationally, justifiably sure that the video being presented is bullshit. Just like I'm rationally, justifiably sure the sun will appear tomorrow morning, just like I'm rationally, justifiably sure that God doesn't exist. Sure, I'm putting in some faith here on my statements, but under rational justification.

So to make a long, whiny story short, you have no evidence that the video is fabricated. You in fact do not know whether there are people in North Korea whose experiences are reflected in that video. Thanks for your answer.

[The Vegan Marxist]

So to make a long, whiny story short, you have no evidence that the video is fabricated. You in fact do not know whether there are people in North Korea whose experiences are reflected in that video. Thanks for your answer.

I can't say for 100% that the video is fabricated, but since the amounts of evidence stating the possibility of it being fabricated outweighs the amount of evidence stating the contrary, I would say it is you who has the most illogical answer out of the both of us.

Can we say that the Darwinian theory towards evolution is 100% fact? No. But evolution itself (given that evolution is a fact) produces more evidence showing that the Darwinian theory IS true, rather than the contrary. So your arguments are completely invalid & hold no weight whatsoever.

[Chimurenga.]

I would like to see any trace of socialism in North Korea,

They operate under a socialist planned economy with the Workers Party of Korea as the vanguard of the Korean Revolution. They have a central committee, also known as the Supreme Peoples Assembly with union representation, womens federations, and other parties, which operates under democratic centralism. All citizens have the right to housing, education, food rations, transportation, employment, and child care by law.


and even if anyone doesn't support reactionary groups such as North Korea and Hamas,

How does a state currently operating under Socialism and a group fighting for national liberation constitute as "reactionary"? Do you even understand what that word means?

Also, for someone who is a self-proclaimed "Castroist", what do you think of this quote from Fidel in 1988?

"The people of the DPRK are an extraordinary people; a people with the same characteristics as ours."

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/castro/db/1988/19880926.html



So let me get this right: somebody is a liberal if they think that a tinpot dictatorship in North Korea isn't a socialist society?

If they source blatant anti-Communism aimed at giving a false history and distorted view towards a country pursing an active path towards Socialism and then blabs about human right, yes. Absolutely.


Have fun trying to build your mass political movement by holding up North Korea as a showcase society.

We don't hold the DPRK as a "showcase society" although, we admire the DPRK, the struggles that they've endured, and their successes.


I'm sure you might get upwards of 20 or 30 people in a decade or two.

Actually, we just had over 500 people attend our national conference who are perfectly okay with and support our lines. People all over the US and in Canada, El Salvador, Honduras, New Zealand, and Austria in attendance. We are at the forefront of the anti-war movement and we are active members in unions and assorted struggles all over the US. We had over 30 people before we ever had a name.


Doesn't it strike any of you PRO-DPRK types as unusual (and explicitly anti-socialist) that there seems to be a hereditary system (whether formal or not) of transfer of power?

No, I stay out of it. It's not my place to judge. The people of the DPRK love their leaders for a reason. It's not at the barrel of a gun and it's not through terror. It's through action, years and years of struggle, and the life that has been provided to all people through the Socialist system. It's a shame that people in the West can never seem to see this but at the same time, I'm never surprised.


"No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed."- Michael Parenti

[Volcanicity]

I didn't ask you what your experiences in North Korea were. I am aware of what your experiences were. Have you considered that that there are many other different experiences of life inside of North Korea beside the one you have had? Have you considered that the documentaries you are writing off as propaganda might in fact contain relatively accurate representations of how some people, perhaps many people, in that country live?

I repeat: do you have any evidence that those representations are fabricated?
Have you considered the video's from the CPGB-ML are'nt fabricated.Being a Communist I prefer to see those as a truthful representation of the DPRK until proven otherwise, rather than falling for Western propaganda with an agenda to see all Socialist Countries brought down.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Also, for someone who is a self-proclaimed "Castroist", what do you think of this quote from Fidel in 1988?

"The people of the DPRK are an extraordinary people; a people with the same characteristics as ours."

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/castro/db/1988/19880926.html

Not to mention the fact that the DPRK has a more collective economy than that of Cuba's.

[Crux]

So go ahead & all you "pure socialists" keep talking about how "un-Socialist" & "revisionist" the DPRK is. Khrushchev was a revisionist as well, but I'm putting money down that the Russian citizens would be on the frontlines right now, putting their lives on the line if they knew that Khrushchev could rule Russia again. The same goes for the DPRK. Fuck your pro-imperialist semantics.
So remind me again how you are an "anti-revisionist"? Or a marxist?
Oh yeah and SK overthrew feaudalism too. Let's all jump with joy.

[Crux]

And here it is, folks, the moment we've all been waiting for. It's so nice to see such unwavering liberalism. Yes, defending the hereditary dictatorship of korea is clearly the pitome of revolutionary thought. Just like Juché has superseded marxism in the theoretical field, am I right?




Your side is a demonization of the people of Democratic Korea, their love and trust in their leaders and their country, and their path towards Socialism. Yours is one of borderline religious lunacy. Did you know that Juché is also a religion, by the way? Have you thought about converting?



I'm not a worshiper of anything. I am, however, a country that in the face of constant imperialist threat and economic blockades, provides their people with the basic necessities to live a comfortable life. Especially in a time when of economic downturn in the US where many brothers and sisters, most of whom I don't know, are being kicked out of their house, fired and/or laid off, made homeless, or are brutalized by the police and/or incarcerated without trial. Then perhaps you should read your previous quote again. You are clearly a worshiper. I have no reason to believe DPRK state propaganda about how comfortable the average member of their society is, just as little as I believe america to be the land where anyone can succeed and there is equal opportunity. But I suppose friends of the CCP such as yourself are more prone to idealism. I believe very much in a korean revolution, and it will be against the DPRK too.

But then again, being a apologists for China, it's only natural you'd defend the DPRK. How about Vietnam?

[4 Leaf Clover]

According to these Anti-DPRK sort, DPRK is poor , because their leaders want so

Yes , lets not support DPRK , because reality is , their workers will overthrow their government , and a new one , true socialist one , will emerge , and their enemies will watch and approve. After that , DPRK is going to be swimming in prosperity , and then our comrades will be happy , because they will be able to travel to DPRK and have a pint of western lager... Pure Marxist Analysis of DPRK

The perfect example of scientific methods and views of our "revolutionary" trot-whine and ultra-left "comrades"

[L.A.P.]

Our "desires" are idealist by its very nature. I desire a shit loads of things that isn't possible. So I take what I can get, because each step I know is an advancement forward.

If I was living in a feudalist country, I'd be jumping in joy because capitalism overthrew feudalism. Why? Because, & Marx agreed with this statement, the transition from feudalism to capitalism is revolutionary in itself. Each step forward is revolutionary in itself. Where the DPRK stands now, when we compare to what it was before Kim Il-Sung & his comrades took over, it's more revolutionary than it's ever been.

Even if shit's going badly down there. Every single anti-DPRK piece of shit on this forum always falls down in the same line of blaming the North Korean govt. for said problems. Completely disregarding the fact that the US & allies are behind its economic downturn. Even if those videos were real, they are not victims of the North Korean govt. They're ultimately victims of US imperialist acts of aggression - increased sanctions.

So go ahead & all you "pure socialists" keep talking about how "un-Socialist" & "revisionist" the DPRK is. Khrushchev was a revisionist as well, but I'm putting money down that the Russian citizens would be on the frontlines right now, putting their lives on the line if they knew that Khrushchev could rule Russia again. The same goes for the DPRK. Fuck your pro-imperialist semantics.

You're an idiot, you're just a pure complete typical arrogant moronic takes-himself-way-too-seriously Marxist-Leninist. I can see why Marxist-Leninists get so much shit because of morons like you. I will say that North Korea under Kim Il-Sung was better than any other form of government of North Korea but Kim Jong-il has taken the country so many steps backwards that any traces of it being a socialist state is gone. In all honesty, a liberal capitalist republic is better than a single-party military juche republic. It's not any step forward it's pretty much going a step backward from capitalist republic to going back to something very similar to monarchy which is pretty fucking reactionary. I know I'm a piece of shit who supports imperialism because I like this silly thing called human rights, why do so many leftists make it seem like human rights don't matter and that it is just a stupid liberal yuppie thing? I think the real reason you support North Korea is just desperation to hold on to the last fucking thread in having hope in North Korea even when they don't hide under the banner of socialism anymore and follow juche. Any progress made by Kim Il-Sung was pissed on by Kim Jong-il and you're a stupid fuck to think otherwise.

[L.A.P.]

They operate under a socialist planned economy with the Workers Party of Korea as the vanguard of the Korean Revolution. They have a central committee, also known as the Supreme Peoples Assembly with union representation, womens federations, and other parties, which operates under democratic centralism. All citizens have the right to housing, education, food rations, transportation, employment, and child care by law.

No, it doesn't. Planned economies does not automatically make it socialist and the wealth is distributed in a very hierarchal manner. Other parties can only join if they pledge allegiance to the Worker's Party of North Korea so any input different from the state party are disregarded therefore useless.




How does a state currently operating under Socialism and a group fighting for national liberation constitute as "reactionary"? Do you even understand what that word means?

They don't operate under a socialist economy and Hamas are reactionary maybe because they're theocrats, that would be just a guess.




Also, for someone who is a self-proclaimed "Castroist", what do you think of this quote from Fidel in 1988?

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/castro/db/1988/19880926.html


If I were in Castro's position I would of course become allies with North Korea but that doesn't mean I would support the way their government is run. I never said I don't support North Korea when going against the West but to actually look at North Korea as a socialist state is just ridiculous. Even if Castro does think the government of North Korea is a fundamentally well-run one then that would pretty much.....not change my opinion at all. I believe in the theories of Castroism and look at Castrto as a great leader but that doesn't mean I have to like his likes and dislike his dislikes.

[Crux]

According to these Anti-DPRK sort, DPRK is poor , because their leaders want so

Yes , lets not support DPRK , because reality is , their workers will overthrow their government , and a new one , true socialist one , will emerge , and their enemies will watch and approve. After that , DPRK is going to be swimming in prosperity , and then our comrades will be happy , because they will be able to travel to DPRK and have a pint of western lager... Pure Marxist Analysis of DPRK

The perfect example of scientific methods and views of our "revolutionary" trot-whine and ultra-left "comrades"
Well hello there comrade strawman.

[Vanguard1917]

North Korea is exactly that- an authoritarian military dictatorship of the proletariat.

How exactly?

[Kassad]

Hilarious.

It's quite ironic, if you ask me. The American military says they are serving the interests of democracy and humanity. The Anarchists claim the exact same thing when calling for counterrevolution in Korea. You guys are almost like Fox News!

[Cultural Revolution]

No, 4 leaf clover, Kim and the beauracracy may indeed, not want the DPRK to be poor, and it is due to Imperialism that it is, but that is not my arguement against North Korea.

My first arguement against the DPRK being socialist, is that it clearly is not socialist, they are state capitalist, but then again, they cannot become socialist, as they are forced to engage in capitalism and the markets, due to not being able to produce what the DPRK needs to run and feeds the people.

Most of the DPRK infrastructure was destroyed in the war, so its hardly going to be able to become a modern industrialised nation.

With the capitalist restoration in China, even though they still recieve aid from china, they are now isolated and lack military solidarity with other workers states, therfore, Korea is militarised out fo neccesity, not choice.

But, this cannot make up for the hereditary rule that takes place in Korea, as unlike raul, Kim Jung Il was never seccond in command, and is only succesor due to his bloodline, nor can it excuse the abandonment of marxism, it may be state capitalist and progressive at the moment, but it ius heading towards private capitalism, it is already basically at the brink.

We should uphold the DPRK, the peasantry and workers that is, but advocate another internal proletarian revolution.

Cultural and anti capitalist revolution

[Cultural Revolution]

A series of moves by Communist leader Kim Jung-Il over the last several years indicates a desire to introduce aspects of capitalism into the economy. The government has lifted some restrictions on investment, reduced some wage restrictions and government subsidies, made internal travel easier, created small, semi-private markets and shops, phased out a decades-old food ration system, and allowed farmers to own small gardens and sell their products at local markets. "The principal signs of early market reforms are the collapse of the public rationing system and its replacement by monetization of goods and services,"

So how far can we strech the word socialism before the very word becomes meaningless?

[Crux]

It's quite ironic, if you ask me. The American military says they are serving the interests of democracy and humanity. The Anarchists claim the exact same thing when calling for counterrevolution in Korea. You guys are almost like Fox News!
No, you.

[Lucretia]

I can't say for 100% that the video is fabricated, but since the amounts of evidence stating the possibility of it being fabricated outweighs the amount of evidence stating the contrary, I would say it is you who has the most illogical answer out of the both of us.

Can we say that the Darwinian theory towards evolution is 100% fact? No. But evolution itself (given that evolution is a fact) produces more evidence showing that the Darwinian theory IS true, rather than the contrary. So your arguments are completely invalid & hold no weight whatsoever.

Actually, I have not provided any answers, so I wonder how I could possibly "have the most illogical answer out of the both of us." I simply asked you whether you have evidence to show that the videos in question were fake. You don't. So stop saying that the videos are fake. It's that simple, really.

[Lucretia]

Have you considered the video's from the CPGB-ML are'nt fabricated.Being a Communist I prefer to see those as a truthful representation of the DPRK until proven otherwise, rather than falling for Western propaganda with an agenda to see all Socialist Countries brought down.

Can you prove that those videos are propaganda? Or are you just assuming that it's propaganda because it does not conform to your preconceived notions of how North Korea must be?

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

While I can appeciate that nobody with half a brain on this site can be bothered to refute these claims, is there some way we can bump threads like this off the top pages because the fact we are even debating wheter North Korea is a "workers state" makes the left seem deluded and crazy.

[Reznov]

I often think about how the low-ranking members of the Chinese embassy must argue amongst themselves over who has to go and pretend to be a communist in front of that weird sect with about ten members that keeps saying China is a glorious socialist paradise.

Haha, one of the best things I have read on RevLeft in awhile.

:thumbup:

[Kassad]

No, you.

Good logic. It's nice to see it isn't too hard to back opportunists into a corner on the issue of Korea.

[The Red Next Door]

Okay, it doesn't matter wither you support or do not support the DPRK; the question is "would there lives be any better if the DPRK government collapse and is in control of the rotten south?" No, so therefore for the sake of the people of the DPRK; we must defend and support them from imperialism. Anarchist and pure socialist can defend DRPK but critize them at the same time; but you guys don't do that. You want to side with the capitalism media; I don't agree with the DPRK but compare to south korea. It is okay; not good or bad but it is okay instead of worse and worse is them being ousted and control by south KKKorea and Amerikka. so if you care about the North Korean people then you would support the destruction of state that give free health care and education.

You can at least wait until all of the Western imperialist states are dead and gone before calling for the fall of Iran and etc.

[Garret]

North Korea is hard for me to decide whether I should support it. Especially after watching this stuff:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5385077659281273870#
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1875007335054132657#

Call it "bourgeois propaganda" all you want but I seriously detest that it can't provide for it's people and yet (some) ML's call it socialist. I'm not looking for "pure socialism" no, but the state North Korea is in, is not to be defended.

[bailey_187]

I dont get it. North Korea claims to want to be "self-reliant" right? So how exactly would economic sanctions from the US cause problems if they want to be "self-reliant"?

[L.A.P.]

Okay, it doesn't matter wither you support or do not support the DPRK; the question is "would there lives be any better if the DPRK government collapse and is in control of the rotten south?" No, so therefore for the sake of the people of the DPRK; we must defend and support them from imperialism. Anarchist and pure socialist can defend DRPK but critize them at the same time; but you guys don't do that. You want to side with the capitalism media; I don't agree with the DPRK but compare to south korea. It is okay; not good or bad but it is okay instead of worse and worse is them being ousted and control by south KKKorea and Amerikka. so if you care about the North Korean people then you would support the destruction of state that give free health care and education.

You can at least wait until all of the Western imperialist states are dead and gone before calling for the fall of Iran and etc.

Again, of course I support North Korea when opposing Western imperialism but there is no doubt that there is nothing remotely socialist about them when Kim Jong-il came into power. Therefore, I'm a bit bothered when The Vegan Marxist and scaretheghoul go around saying it is a great socialist nation and that 99% of the people legitimately worship their leader and the 1% simply don't vote or are too young to talk. I don't care who they are, 99% of people never approve of a leader no matter what the conditions are, genuinely. not to mention that the distribution of wealth is in a hierarchal manner but as long as the government controls it it's socialist, because that's what socialism is all about.:rolleyes:

[Lyev]

From what I've read, any concrete links between the WPK and the North Korean working class are minimal and weak, and that's if they exist at all.

[L.A.P.]

From what I've read, any concrete links between the WPK and the North Korean working class are minimal and weak, and that's if they exist at all.

Liberal propaganda:rolleyes:

[Palingenisis]

I dont get it. North Korea claims to want to be "self-reliant" right? So how exactly would economic sanctions from the US cause problems if they want to be "self-reliant"?

Because its pretty hard for any country no matter how much they try to be self-reliant without going back to 18 th century levels of technology.

[Palingenisis]

From what I've read, any concrete links between the WPK and the North Korean working class are minimal and weak, and that's if they exist at all.

And where did you read that?

There are very strong links between the working class of the DPRK and their Workers' Party.

What really annoys me is that Democratic Korea is much more of a genuinely Socialist country than Cuba which was always just about social-democratic at best despite the revisionist and reactionary nationalist elements in Juche yet people are much more ready to support Cuba....Why? Guess the fact that it is more genuinely socialist means that the ruling class go after it in a way they wouldnt go after Castro.

[bailey_187]

Because its pretty hard for any country no matter how much they try to be self-reliant with going back to 18 th century levels of technology.

well yeah, i never said i support autarky and "self-reliance". The DPRK claims to.

[L.A.P.]

And where did you read that?

There are very strong links between the working class of the DPRK and their Workers' Party.

What really annoys me is that Democratic Korea is much more of a genuinely Socialist country than Cuba which was always just about social-democratic at best despite the revisionist and reactionary nationalist elements in Juche yet people are much more ready to support Cuba....Why? Guess the fact that it is more genuinely socialist means that the ruling class go after it in a way they wouldnt go after Castro.

Cuba is pretty much the last socialist state left.

[bots]

Actually, I have not provided any answers, so I wonder how I could possibly "have the most illogical answer out of the both of us." I simply asked you whether you have evidence to show that the videos in question were fake. You don't. So stop saying that the videos are fake. It's that simple, really.

The onus of proof is on whoever makes the claim. Whoever posted the videos has to prove they are real.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Cuba is pretty much the last socialist state left.

Yet, the DPRK has a more collective economy than Cuba does. So where can you even remotely state that the DPRK isn't Socialist, yet Cuba is?

[L.A.P.]

Yet, the DPRK has a more collective economy than Cuba does. So where can you even remotely state that the DPRK isn't Socialist, yet Cuba is?

Collectivist does not automatically equal socialist, if that's so then Nazi Germany is the most socialist state ever.

[Palingenisis]

Collectivist does not automatically equal socialist, if that's so then Nazi Germany is the most socialist state ever.

Uh....No because Nazi Germany was a corporatist economy and as such had a lot more in common with Cuba economically than the DRPK where most of the economy is both socially owned and centrally planned.

[L.A.P.]

Uh....No because Nazi Germany was a corporatist economy and as such had a lot more in common with Cuba economically than the DRPK where most of the economy is both socially owned and centrally planned.

The people of North Korea have no say and have no ownership of the means of production because that is left to the elites of the Worker's Party of North Korea to decide, that actually sounds a lot like corporatism. While Cuba the worker's councils have more say on what to do and are moving more towards co-ops. I can't believe that people really have to explain why North Korea is a non-socialist state but rather an authoritarian military dictatorship, what other simple concepts do people have to explain to you?

[Lucretia]

The onus of proof is on whoever makes the claim. Whoever posted the videos has to prove they are real.

Actually what that demand amounts to is "prove that the video you posted was not fake." In effect, you are asking somebody to prove a negative, which is of course impossible. As for what I have said, I have made no claims about the authenticity of the videos in question. All I have done is observe that you have no idea whether the videos are authentic, in spite of your incessant claims.

[Garret]

The CPGB have been to many other places than Pyongyang within the DPRK, as the videos that I've provided show. We even have the WHO (World Health Organization) who's inspected the DPRK, & yet not a single word of these "starving children" within their reports. For a mainstream organization, they really don't do a very a good job I guess in exposing the great crimes of the DPRK.

But other than all that, how about you provide evidence that what is shown in these videos are true? I mean, you can fap all you want over these video's, but upholding them as "evidence" holds just as much weight as "look! she's a reptilian!" do. Especially if the "look! she's a reptilian!" video is funded by an organization dedicated in demonizing anyone & everyone who says otherwise.
The WHO, on its own website, has a section for child malnutrition statistics in NK. From its "Country cooperation strategy": "The health of women and children is a key priority [of the WHO] in DPR Korea" (p.47). Probability of dying under 5 is 55/1000. In the US it's 8/1000 (here's the site: http://www.who.int/countries/prk/en/).

The Guardian says that an Amnesty International report into NK said "The report identifies children, elderly people and pregnant women as "particularly vulnerable to food insecurity and malnutrition due to their dietary needs"." (the link is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/north-korea-health-crisis-amnesty

Did you think that we wouldn't bother to look at the WHO site or check your "facts"?

[Crux]

Good logic. It's nice to see it isn't too hard to back opportunists into a corner on the issue of Korea.
Cool story, bro.

[Crux]

Okay, it doesn't matter wither you support or do not support the DPRK; the question is "would there lives be any better if the DPRK government collapse and is in control of the rotten south?" No, so therefore for the sake of the people of the DPRK; we must defend and support them from imperialism.
Which incidentally was not the question. Of course that does not mean I wouldn't oppose military aggression from the imperialist countries against nor th korea. I protested the war against Iraq. Strangely I managed to do so without supporting the murderous Baath regime of Saddam Hussein. If we were to have a discussion on Baathism and Hussein's regime would you back them also, in the name of the iraqi people no less? because that' more akin to what we are actually discussing, peopple have come out in defence of the current system and regime in DPRK.


Anarchist and pure socialist can defend DRPK but critize them at the same time; but you guys don't do that. You want to side with the capitalism media; I don't agree with the DPRK but compare to south korea. It is okay; not good or bad but it is okay instead of worse and worse is them being ousted and control by south KKKorea and Amerikka. so if you care about the North Korean people then you would support the destruction of state that give free health care and education.
Who are "you guys"? Don't use weasel words. And again you put forward the supposed benefits of the regime, which, even if they were true, hardly changes my position on the regime.


You can at least wait until all of the Western imperialist states are dead and gone before calling for the fall of Iran and etc.
Tell that to the iranians, my american comrade.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The WHO, on its own website, has a section for child malnutrition statistics in NK. From its "Country cooperation strategy": "The health of women and children is a key priority [of the WHO] in DPR Korea" (p.47). Probability of dying under 5 is 55/1000. In the US it's 8/1000 (here's the site: http://www.who.int/countries/prk/en/).

The Guardian says that an Amnesty International report into NK said "The report identifies children, elderly people and pregnant women as "particularly vulnerable to food insecurity and malnutrition due to their dietary needs"." (the link is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/north-korea-health-crisis-amnesty

Did you think that we wouldn't bother to look at the WHO site or check your "facts"?

This doesn't necessarily propose that the video pointed out is correct. And, again, as I've stated, even if these things are going on, you people are completely disregarding the true culprits to this economic crisis, & rather are blaming the DPRK in itself instead.

[Crux]

This doesn't necessarily propose that the video pointed out is correct. And, again, as I've stated, even if these things are going on, you people are completely disregarding the true culprits to this economic crisis, & rather are blaming the DPRK in itself instead.
We blame the leadership, not the DPRK itself. There's a distinction to be made there. Which is why we would never make ourselves allies of said leadership as the CPGB-ML does.

[Garret]

Even if these things are going on, you people are completely disregarding the true culprits to this economic crisis, & rather are blaming the DPRK in itself instead.
But they ARE going on. Every credible source - every credible source - backs up what the videos I posted earlier show. And by "credible source", I mean independent organisations with a long history of professional, serious, and objective study (WHO, Amnesty, etc), not brainwashed - braindead - political puppets who parrot out what NK tells them to their dogmatic, unthinking supporters.

Talking about "organisation[s] dedicated in demonizing anyone & everyone who says otherwise", isn't that the role of NK state media?

As for the CPGB-ML going elsewhere in NK, you seem to have forgotten - anyone who goes to NK is monitored, guided and shown what the state wants them to see. Do you suppose they got a guided tour of the prison camps?

[bots]

Actually what that demand amounts to is "prove that the video you posted was not fake." In effect, you are asking somebody to prove a negative, which is of course impossible. As for what I have said, I have made no claims about the authenticity of the videos in question. All I have done is observe that you have no idea whether the videos are authentic, in spite of your incessant claims.

No. You asking somebody to prove the video is a fake is equivalent to demanding somebody prove a negative. The onus of proof is always on the person who makes the claim. By posting the videos you have made the claim that the videos are a factual and accurate representation of your viewpoint. It is up to you to prove the videos are real if you want anybody to take them seriously. I can post videos of ghosts and demon possessions and UFOs but until I can prove that the subject matter in the videos is real you would be hard pressed to accept the videos as factual accounts of supernatural phenomenon. The onus of proof would not be upon you to prove the demon did or did not posses the person on tape but upon me to prove the videos were real.

[Cultural Revolution]

http://is2.myvideo.de/de/movie11/63/thumbs/4494642_1.jpg Shining light, that is, Kim.

Seriously, how can the DPRK be socialist, yet allow private capitalist projects to operate inside North Korea?

Ridiculous, would Marx call North Korea socialist?
Engels?
Mao
Hoxha
Huey P

According to who is North Korea socialist?

[scarletghoul]

mao abnd huey were both pro-norht korea

[Garret]

Shining light, that is, Kim.

Seriously, how can the DPRK be socialist, yet allow private capitalist projects to operate inside North Korea?

Ridiculous, would Marx call North Korea socialist?
Engels?
Mao
Hoxha
Huey P

According to who is North Korea socialist?
North Korea isn't a workers' paradise, but because it supposedly calls itself socialist (and even that is questionable - there is almost no mention of Marx, Lenin, etc, or even the word "socialism" these days in NK writings and media) then it is right and should be supported.

These people are so dogmatic that they are blind to the facts of life.

[Vanguard1917]

North Korea isn't a workers' paradise, but because it supposedly calls itself socialist (and even that is questionable - there is almost no mention of Marx, Lenin, etc, or even the word "socialism" these days in NK writings and media) then it is right and should be supported..

What kind of logic would that be? New Labour's constitution says that Labour is a "democratic socialist party", but everyone with a brain knows that's not actually the case.

[Cultural Revolution]

mao abnd huey were both pro-norht korea

Thats when DPRK was indeed socialist!

To an extent

[4 Leaf Clover]

Well hello there comrade strawman.

Oh , so you recognized yourself

[Volcanicity]

http://is2.myvideo.de/de/movie11/63/thumbs/4494642_1.jpg Shining light, that is, Kim.

Seriously, how can the DPRK be socialist, yet allow private capitalist projects to operate inside North Korea?

Ridiculous, would Marx call North Korea socialist?
Engels?
Mao
Hoxha
Huey P

According to who is North Korea socialist?
As far as I'm aware those "private Capitalist projects"only exist in small amounts in the DPRK and they are in no worse a position-arguably in a much better shape ecomomically- than when Lenin had to enforce the NEP,as has already been stated the economic problems they are suffering are through no fault of the DPRK themselves.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I want to go back to the CBGB-ML. How many members do they have and do they have a progressive role in the brittish labour movement of today?

[Volcanicity]

I want to go back to the CBGB-ML. How many members do they have and do they have a progressive role in the brittish labour movement of today?
In terms of numbers I don't know the exact amount but they are small as are all Socialist/Communist parties in the UK though the CPGB-ML are not as small as some people are implying on here,they have after all only been going six years.They also have a youth wing which was set up earlier this year called the Red Youth.To answer the second part of your question if you mean do they have any ties with the Labour Party then no they do'nt.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

In terms of numbers I don't know the exact amount but they are small as are all Socialist/Communist parties in the UK though the CPGB-ML are not as small as some people are implying on here,they have after all only been going six years.They also have a youth wing which was set up earlier this year called the Red Youth.To answer the second part of your question if you mean do they have any ties with the Labour Party then no they do'nt.


No, i was more refering to the workers movement, the class struggle in todays Brittain.

[Volcanicity]

No, i was more refering to the workers movement, the class struggle in todays Brittain.
Sorry Mike I've had a few drink's and I misunderstood you.They are as active as any Communist/Socialist party in the UK Though because they are relativly small and have been not long in exsitence they are'nt quite as prominent as others.If you visit the CPGB-ML website and read their publication Proletarian you will see their policies and how active thy are.Hope this makes sense.

[A.J.]

this is absolutely disgraceful.

socialism requires democratic workers control and north korea is nothing like that. I can understand justification of Cubas human rights records in comparison with those of the west but north korea is extraordinarily oppressive and your support of it is absolutely disgusting.

ps, a good friend and comrade of mine who lived in dprk and was absolutely disgusted by supposed lefties who support such oppression

I'm not really informed enough to pass judgement on the DPRK, however, I can still find fault with the method of deduction you apply here:

Firstly, you assert there is a premise("democratic workers control") for the existence or non-existence of socialism, failing to elaborate what this premise is in any sort of concrete detail whatsoever.

Secondly, you fail to provide any primary material evidence to support your conclusion that this vague ill-defined premise isn't in existence in the DPRK.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Which incidentally was not the question. Of course that does not mean I wouldn't oppose military aggression from the imperialist countries against nor th korea. I protested the war against Iraq. Strangely I managed to do so without supporting the murderous Baath regime of Saddam Hussein. If we were to have a discussion on Baathism and Hussein's regime would you back them also, in the name of the iraqi people no less? because that' more akin to what we are actually discussing, peopple have come out in defence of the current system and regime in DPRK.
You are not supposed to support DPRK as DPRK , you are supposed to support them in their resistance to Imperialism. Therefore you have to defend their system in front of Imperialists , and criticize them in front of other progressive marxists. And , no you are not supposed to propagate overthrow of their government , since it is legitimately resisting. A country that is stuck in revolution and civil war cannot defend itself from aggressive enemies and you know it

And for all of you who so easily criticize DPRK economical system , you should know that DPRK is not accidentally isolated , but they try to preserve the socialist nature of it , by minimizing the necessary trade dependence , and be self-reliant which means , they are not forced to produce commodities , and in a way exploit their workers labour for earning in export. They rely on their own resources , and base all their strength on heavy industry , which means , resource processing. Not socialist enough ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

And for all of you who so easily criticize DPRK economical system , you should know that DPRK is not accidentally isolated , but they try to preserve the socialist nature of it , by minimizing the necessary trade dependence , and be self-reliant which means , they are not forced to produce commodities , and in a way exploit their workers labour for earning in export. They rely on their own resources , and base all their strength on heavy industry , which means , resource processing. Not socialist enough ?

Could be too "technocratic, resource-based" for their likings. :rolleyes:

[Crux]

You are not supposed to support DPRK as DPRK , you are supposed to support them in their resistance to Imperialism. Therefore you have to defend their system in front of Imperialists , and criticize them in front of other progressive marxists. And , no you are not supposed to propagate overthrow of their government , since it is legitimately resisting. A country that is stuck in revolution and civil war cannot defend itself from aggressive enemies and you know it
No. Your ideas about what I am "supposed" to do hold no relevance to me whatsoever. I suspect this has it's root in your incapability to understand what kind of overthrow of the Kim-regime in North Korea I am advocating. It's called revolution. You may have heard of it.


And for all of you who so easily criticize DPRK economical system , you should know that DPRK is not accidentally isolated , but they try to preserve the socialist nature of it , by minimizing the necessary trade dependence , and be self-reliant which means , they are not forced to produce commodities , and in a way exploit their workers labour for earning in export. They rely on their own resources , and base all their strength on heavy industry , which means , resource processing. Not socialist enough ?
:laugh: Not true enough, you know as well as I do, there have been liberalizations on the market since the 1990's, the fact that there is most definitely a privilege for the bureaucracy and the "royal family" and the fact that DPRK is hardly independent. Say have you heard of their neighbor to the north?

Also, as someone else pointed out this "they are isolated because that what they want to be" of course makes any reference to commercial blockades as causing the current situation invalid.

[4 Leaf Clover]

No. Your ideas about what I am "supposed" to do hold no relevance to me whatsoever. I suspect this has it's root in your incapability to understand what kind of overthrow of the Kim-regime in North Korea I am advocating. It's called revolution. You may have heard of it.

So you advocate a political revolution in an isolated socialist country , who abandoned capitalist ideas , who criticize them to this very day , who are openly anti-imperialist , and who eliminated bosses and private ownership over production. Progressive as hell



:laugh: Not true enough, you know as well as I do, there have been liberalizations on the market since the 1990's
This is partially true , actually , only example still being Kaesong , which deserves every critique , apart from fact that NK authorities demanded that DPRK workers in the facility get increased wages. Yes , they were increased , but it still doesn't change the fact that the Major profit goes to the south

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I am somewhat confused here. It seems that people tend to vocalise the more extreme parts of their beliefs when their more moderate beliefs are questioned.

It seems that many people here have pushed themselves into a corner; they are defending the DPRK in its entirety, simply on the basis that 'the west is bad too'. It's not a particularly impressive line of argument.

I mean, look, I don't really pay much attention to those who decry North Korea with the following description, of any variation thereof: 'Communist totalitarian fascist hellhole'. It stinks of bourgeois propaganda.

However, that is not to say that this is a reason to wholeheartedly support the DPRK. It is quite clear to any observer that the DPRK is top-down, monarchical society. This is the simple reason that any Marxian Socialist should oppose this treacherous nation. It defies the necessary Socialist principle of workers' control of the means of production, workers' political control and opposition to rigid hierarchies.

Whilst i'm not a fan of the DPRKs international posturing, in particular it's stance on nuclear weapons, that alone, along with some questionable footage of 'human rights abuses' and whatnot, is not grounds to oppose the DPRK. Rather, we should oppose the DPRK because it is not just 'not Socialist', but is an active block in the progression of world Socialist revolution, because its leadership does, and has always, valued nationalism, militarism and monarchy above internationalism, peace and workers' democracy. There is no simpler way to put it: Juche is diametrically opposed to Socialism in every way. The only way it could possibly be seen as inter-related is if you are the sort of 'Socialist' who values red flags and bold constitutions ahead of the ideas of Marx that would actually cause Socialism to exist.

[4 Leaf Clover]

I am somewhat confused here. It seems that people tend to vocalise the more extreme parts of their beliefs when their more moderate beliefs are questioned.

It seems that many people here have pushed themselves into a corner; they are defending the DPRK in its entirety, simply on the basis that 'the west is bad too'. It's not a particularly impressive line of argument.

I mean, look, I don't really pay much attention to those who decry North Korea with the following description, of any variation thereof: 'Communist totalitarian fascist hellhole'. It stinks of bourgeois propaganda.

However, that is not to say that this is a reason to wholeheartedly support the DPRK. It is quite clear to any observer that the DPRK is top-down, monarchical society. This is the simple reason that any Marxian Socialist should oppose this treacherous nation. It defies the necessary Socialist principle of workers' control of the means of production, workers' political control and opposition to rigid hierarchies.

Whilst i'm not a fan of the DPRKs international posturing, in particular it's stance on nuclear weapons, that alone, along with some questionable footage of 'human rights abuses' and whatnot, is not grounds to oppose the DPRK. Rather, we should oppose the DPRK because it is not just 'not Socialist', but is an active block in the progression of world Socialist revolution, because its leadership does, and has always, valued nationalism, militarism and monarchy above internationalism, peace and workers' democracy. There is no simpler way to put it: Juche is diametrically opposed to Socialism in every way. The only way it could possibly be seen as inter-related is if you are the sort of 'Socialist' who values red flags and bold constitutions ahead of the ideas of Marx that would actually cause Socialism to exist.

The common misconception comrade is , that people think and expect us to defend anyone to death. We rightfully consider North-Korea anti-imperialist and defend them from that point. We think that calling for overthrow of North Korean government is opportunist bullshit , since in every struggle of the global proletariat against capitalist exploiters , people of DPRK would stand on our side of barricade. From this chronological position , DPRK cannot overthrow its leadership , since it's leadership is locked into political struggle against aggressive imperialism. There could be also no progress in February and October revolution until outer danger was eliminated , from Austria and Germany , which is not a luxury that modern imaginary North Korean revolutionaries could afford. There is of course , no reason why someone shouldn't criticize DPRK and point out many mistakes.

[Crux]

So you advocate a political revolution in an isolated socialist country , who abandoned capitalist ideas , who criticize them to this very day , who are openly anti-imperialist , and who eliminated bosses and private ownership over production. Progressive as hell
Are you saying it's more progressives to paint them as socialists than fighting for socialist revolution? Interesting. Also, there is an expanding private sector in north korea. Let's hope the blockade end and you'll see far, far more of that.


This is partially true , actually , only example still being Kaesong , which deserves every critique , apart from fact that NK authorities demanded that DPRK workers in the facility get increased wages. Yes , they were increased , but it still doesn't change the fact that the Major profit goes to the south
Which is why I very much believe th ruling caste in DPRK will restore private capitalism first chance they get. You cannot discount the very real internal threat to the planned economy, in form of a priviliged unaccountable bureaucrat caste.

[Crux]

The common misconception comrade is , that people think and expect us to defend anyone to death. We rightfully consider North-Korea anti-imperialist and defend them from that point. We think that calling for overthrow of North Korean government is opportunist bullshit , since in every struggle of the global proletariat against capitalist exploiters , people of DPRK would stand on our side of barricade. From this chronological position , DPRK cannot overthrow its leadership , since it's leadership is locked into political struggle against aggressive imperialism. There could be also no progress in February and October revolution until outer danger was eliminated , from Austria and Germany , which is not a luxury that modern imaginary North Korean revolutionaries could afford. There is of course , no reason why someone shouldn't criticize DPRK and point out many mistakes.
That's a defencist position. I believe a revolutionary movement in the entire korean peninsula is necessary to bring both regimes to their knees, and I think it is possible, but I requires a clear view on the north, because it must be against them too.

[bricolage]

It's quite ironic, if you ask me. The American military says they are serving the interests of democracy and humanity. The Anarchists claim the exact same thing when calling for counterrevolution in Korea. You guys are almost like Fox News!
It's quite ironic, if you ask me. Glenn Beck says North Korea is socialist. The PSL claim the exact same thing. You guys are almost like Fox News!

[bots]

My favorite part of the Vice guide to travel episode on North Korea is when they sing karaoke. I LAUGHED SO HARD I SPRAYED COCA COLA OUT OF MY NOSE

[Spawn of Stalin]

Which is why I very much believe th ruling caste in DPRK will restore private capitalism first chance they get. You cannot discount the very real internal threat to the planned economy, in form of a priviliged unaccountable bureaucrat caste.
The chance to restore private ownership has always been there, they could have done it via the Russians about twenty years ago. If the demise of the USSR wasn't a great chance to switch to capitalism then I don't know what is. They could have just as easily set themselves up with a mixed economy like the PRC has at any step along the way. My point is the WPK has had several decades to restore capitalism, the simple fact is they have chosen not to.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I often think a lot of you people actually want the DPRK to have a free market economy, not for the benefit of Korean workers (as if), or for the benefit of the imperialists (well, maybe a little), but just so that you can laugh in the faces of all the Stalinists.

[bricolage]

I often think a lot of you people actually want the DPRK to have a free market economy, not for the benefit of Korean workers (as if), or for the benefit of the imperialists (well, maybe a little), but just so that you can laugh in the faces of all the Stalinists.
yes you are right that is exactly what we want.

[L.A.P.]

I often think a lot of you people actually want the DPRK to have a free market economy, not for the benefit of Korean workers (as if), or for the benefit of the imperialists (well, maybe a little), but just so that you can laugh in the faces of all the Stalinists.

That's exactly why I don't support North Korea as being a supposed "socialist" state, because I just want to laugh at my own face.:rolleyes:

[4 Leaf Clover]

That's a defencist position. I believe a revolutionary movement in the entire korean peninsula is necessary to bring both regimes to their knees, and I think it is possible, but I requires a clear view on the north, because it must be against them too.
How do you expect a revolution happen in the whole peninsula with such a different class conciousness ? South is bombed with anti-communist propaganda extremely , and their workers get some privilleges from the state to counter the socialist model , since South is also using advantages of cheap labour. If you ask North Korean what class does he belong to , he will say , intelligence , peasantry , army , or worker. If you ask South Korean what class does he belong to , he will say , rich , poor or middle.

[Spawn of Stalin]

yes you are right that is exactly what we want.
Great, thanks for clarifying this for me.

[Spawn of Stalin]

That's exactly why I don't support North Korea as being a supposed "socialist" state, because I just want to laugh at my own face.:rolleyes:
I don't know who you are but the fact that you call yourself a Leninist, a Stalinist, a Maoist, and a Castroist, coupled with the fact that you have quotes from both Che and Ghandi in your signature, leads me to question your integrity. I find it difficult to take someone who displays so many inherent contridictions seriously. I'm sorry. One thing I will say is this, go take a look in the mirror, but don't laugh at your face, just try to figure out where you stand.

[Crux]

How do you expect a revolution happen in the whole peninsula with such a different class conciousness ? South is bombed with anti-communist propaganda extremely , and their workers get some privilleges from the state to counter the socialist model , since South is also using advantages of cheap labour. If you ask North Korean what class does he belong to , he will say , intelligence , peasantry , army , or worker. If you ask South Korean what class does he belong to , he will say , rich , poor or middle.
I don't know if you are aware of this but the south has an extremely militant and pretty massive union movement.
When was the last time you heard about industrial struggle in north korea? Oh right.


The chance to restore private ownership has always been there, they could have done it via the Russians about twenty years ago. If the demise of the USSR wasn't a great chance to switch to capitalism then I don't know what is. They could have just as easily set themselves up with a mixed economy like the PRC has at any step along the way. My point is the WPK has had several decades to restore capitalism, the simple fact is they have chosen not to.
You don't think a trade blockade has anything to do with it? Also, which no one is refuting, there has been steps towards opening up the market in the DPRK since the 90's. The burecreacy however still enjoy their priviliged positio, there may even be some genuine defence of a planned, if lacking in worker's democracy, economy but also the fact that they have not yet managed to build a private sector that could create a smooth transition like for the chinese bureacracy. A russian situation would be far too messy and the chinese model has clear advantages for the bureaucracy. After all china is their foremost benefactor.

[Crux]

I often think a lot of you people actually want the DPRK to have a free market economy, not for the benefit of Korean workers (as if), or for the benefit of the imperialists (well, maybe a little), but just so that you can laugh in the faces of all the Stalinists.
You give us plenty of reason to laugh at you already. This post is a prime example.

[Palingenisis]

You don't think a trade blockade has anything to do with it? Also, which no one is refuting, there has been steps towards opening up the market in the DPRK since the 90's.

Do you not think that the trade blockade has anything to do with the DPRK's staunch socialist stand and that if they fully opened up to their country to capitalist exploitation that it would be dropped?

Would you have been like the ultra-leftists of the time who attacked the Bolsheviks over the NEP? Most probably....The opening of the "free market" within the DPRK is earn the revenue to buy desperately needed materials from abroad. There is no comparison between the DPRK and China, Cuba or Vietnam.

[L.A.P.]

I don't know who you are but the fact that you call yourself a Leninist, a Stalinist, a Maoist, and a Castroist, coupled with the fact that you have quotes from both Che and Ghandi in your signature, leads me to question your integrity. I find it difficult to take someone who displays so many inherent contridictions seriously. I'm sorry. One thing I will say is this, go take a look in the mirror, but don't laugh at your face, just try to figure out where you stand.

Yeah because these aren't just sects, these are religions!

I believe in the theories of marxism-leninism so god forbid I have a quote by a Marxist-Leninist (Che Guevara).

[Palingenisis]

I believe in the theories of marxism-leninism so god forbid I have a quote by a Marxist-Leninist (Che Guevara).

If you did believe in the theories of Marxism-Leninism you wouldnt so eager to attack the DPRK.

[L.A.P.]

If you did believe in the theories of Marxism-Leninism you wouldnt so eager to attack the DPRK.

:lol:, whatever you say. If you did believe in communism period, then you would not be so eager to support North Korea.

[4 Leaf Clover]

When was the last time you heard about industrial struggle in north korea? Oh right.
Is it actually possible you are asking this question ?


Russian situation would be far too messy and the chinese model has clear advantages for the bureaucracy. After all china is their foremost benefactor.
Cool story bro

[Spawn of Stalin]

Majakovskij
The trade blockade is designed to cripple socialism, not to stifle any chances of the DPRK opening up to capitalism, this is after all what the US administration wants, to stop free trade would be illogical. Yes, there is a small private sector in the DPRK, no need to refute this, but the point is it could be much larger and the US wouldn't need to have a hand in it, there are a billion things which could be outsourced to Russia and the PRC, or done at home for profit. Also, why does the state have such a hostile attitude towards the US? The first step towards capitalism would be making amends with them. We haven't seen any of these things so it must be concluded that the state is dedicated to the current status quo.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah because these aren't just sects, these are religions!

I believe in the theories of marxism-leninism so god forbid I have a quote by a Marxist-Leninist (Che Guevara).

It was actually the Gandhi qiuote that I found funny. No matter.

[L.A.P.]

It was actually the Gandhi qiuote that I found funny. No matter.

It was the fact that you think North Korea is socialist is what I found funny.

[Crux]

Is it actually possible you are asking this question ?

Cool story bro
It's a rhetorical question. But do tell, has there been any union disputes in the dprk lately? Any struggle for improved conditions and against bureaucrat privileges or political corruption? Any political protests or disputes (beyond people defecting to the ROK)?

China is the largest investor in and trading partner of North Korea.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I should have made clearer earlier, I would not support North Korea if it were to be invaded by imperialist powers. I'd not support the imperialists, but i'd not support the DPRK either. I'd support revolution and Socialist democracy overcoming both the imperialists and the monarchy in North Korea. That seems a sensible position for a Socialist to take.

I would be grateful if any of those who actively do support North Korea as a Socialist state, could provide evidence that the working class control the means of production? To me, it seems like the percieved 'Socialism' in this nation does not go beyond the Marxism-Leninism of the early life of Kim Il Sung, a bit of rhetoric, some flags/anthems and government ownership of the MoP. That is not Socialism and should not be defended, especially when it comes with a monarchy, raving nationalism, militarism and a ridiculous cult of personality.

[L.A.P.]

I should have made clearer earlier, I would not support North Korea if it were to be invaded by imperialist powers. I'd not support the imperialists, but i'd not support the DPRK either. I'd support revolution and Socialist democracy overcoming both the imperialists and the monarchy in North Korea. That seems a sensible position for a Socialist to take.

I would be grateful if any of those who actively do support North Korea as a Socialist state, could provide evidence that the working class control the means of production? To me, it seems like the percieved 'Socialism' in this nation does not go beyond the Marxism-Leninism of the early life of Kim Il Sung, a bit of rhetoric, some flags/anthems and government ownership of the MoP. That is not Socialism and should not be defended, especially when it comes with a monarchy, raving nationalism, militarism and a ridiculous cult of personality.

Now see, I do support North Korea when it comes to fighting imperialism because if the United States were to take over any hope for a reform or revolution would be impossible.

[The Red Next Door]

No. Your ideas about what I am "supposed" to do hold no relevance to me whatsoever. I suspect this has it's root in your incapability to understand what kind of overthrow of the Kim-regime in North Korea I am advocating. It's called revolution. You may have heard of it.


:laugh: Not true enough, you know as well as I do, there have been liberalizations on the market since the 1990's, the fact that there is most definitely a privilege for the bureaucracy and the "royal family" and the fact that DPRK is hardly independent. Say have you heard of their neighbor to the north?

Also, as someone else pointed out this "they are isolated because that what they want to be" of course makes any reference to commercial blockades as causing the current situation invalid.


Again WAIT UNTIL AMERICA AND IMPERIALIST NATIONS ARE GONE TO PROMOTE THAT TYPE OF SHIT!

[The Red Next Door]

It's quite ironic, if you ask me. Glenn Beck says North Korea is socialist. The PSL claim the exact same thing. You guys are almost like Fox News!

You trots and anarchos are secret agents for the CIA and M16.

[Crux]

Again WAIT UNTIL AMERICA AND IMPERIALIST NATIONS ARE GONE TO PROMOTE THAT TYPE OF SHIT!
That's U.S-centrist bullshit. You mean revolutions can't happen in the periphery because of imperialism? Seriously? Seriously?!

Yes yes we'll wait until you magically "disappear" the U.S to promote revolutionary politics anywhere, sounds completely rational and not at all like some U.S-centrist cop-out.

But then again the PSL/WWP record on foreign politics started out pretty horrible.

[The Red Next Door]

That's U.S-centrist bullshit. You mean revolutions can't happen in the periphery because of imperialism? Seriously? Seriously?!

Yes yes we'll wait until you magically "disappear" the U.S to promote revolutionary politics anywhere, sounds completely rational and not at all like some U.S-centrist cop-out.

But then again the PSL/WWP record on foreign politics started out pretty horrible.

do you think North Korean lives would be under the US and South Korea?

[The Red Next Door]

That's U.S-centrist bullshit. You mean revolutions can't happen in the periphery because of imperialism? Seriously? Seriously?!

Yes yes we'll wait until you magically "disappear" the U.S to promote revolutionary politics anywhere, sounds completely rational and not at all like some U.S-centrist cop-out.

But then again the PSL/WWP record on foreign politics started out pretty horrible.


MMM. it is okay for you to compare us to fox (which I haven't neg rep you for) then i told you are secrets agents for M16 then you neg rep me. what kind of shit is that?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Considering the documentary you posted, as made by and produced by National Geographic, which is majority owned (75%) by the News Corporation, then yes. It is Western bourgeois propaganda and you have no problem supporting that than anything else.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

Often times, the far-left reminds me of the far-right, in that it will claim everything is a conspiracy in order to substantiate its extremist views. Alleging that any documentation on the horrid conditions of North Korea is 'bourgeios propaganda', is similar to the 9/11 truthers who denounce the 9/11 report, simply because it was conducted by a government agency. You have to criticize the evidence which is presented, not criticize the character of who presented it.


It's quite ironic, if you ask me. Glenn Beck says North Korea is socialist. The PSL claim the exact same thing. You guys are almost like Fox News!

"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by... Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction." - Noam Chomsky


do you think North Korean lives would be under the US and South Korea?

Yes, I do. In the same way that Cambodian lives were better under the Vietnamese... South Korea, despite being a capitalist nation, is doing much better than North Korea. As far as I know, this is an objective fact... The South Korean capitalist democracy is certainly a step above a Monarchist State...


These threads are always interesting because they truly reveal which side posters like "Apoi_Viitor" and 'NewSocialist' are on.

I admit it, I am a bourgeois, imperialist, class-traitor.


Okay, it doesn't matter wither you support or do not support the DPRK; the question is "would there lives be any better if the DPRK government collapse and is in control of the rotten south?"

Yes.



No,


so therefore for the sake of the people of the DPRK; we must defend and support them from imperialism. Anarchist and pure socialist can defend DRPK but critize them at the same time; but you guys don't do that. You want to side with the capitalism media;

This reminds me of the Stalinist argument, "By opposing Stalin, Trotsky was siding with the nazis."


I don't agree with the DPRK but compare to south korea. It is okay; not good or bad but it is okay instead of worse and worse is them being ousted and control by south KKKorea and Amerikka. so if you care about the North Korean people then you would support the destruction of state that give free health care and education.

What health care? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4

[Apoi_Viitor]

One thing I will say is this, go take a look in the mirror, but don't laugh at your face, just try to figure out where you stand.

Personal attacks...classy.

[Crux]

do you think North Korean lives would be under the US and South Korea?
No, I think your politics are the most vulgar form of faux anti-imperialist U.S centric geopolitics.



MMM. it is okay for you to compare us to fox (which I haven't neg rep you for) then i told you are secrets agents for M16 then you neg rep me. what kind of shit is that?
It's your shit, and it's bullshit. Are you drunk or otherwise impaired? Your typing and reasoning is getting rather erratic.

[Wanted Man]

I often think about how the low-ranking members of the Chinese embassy must argue amongst themselves over who has to go and pretend to be a communist in front of that weird sect with about ten members that keeps saying China is a glorious socialist paradise.

Indeed. The Labour Party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/relations-between-c-t145397/index.html) probably has better sandwiches.

[The Red Next Door]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

Often times, the far-left reminds me of the far-right, in that it will claim everything is a conspiracy in order to substantiate its extremist views. Alleging that any documentation on the horrid conditions of North Korea is 'bourgeios propaganda', is similar to the 9/11 truthers who denounce the 9/11 report, simply because it was conducted by a government agency. You have to criticize the evidence which is presented, not criticize the character of who presented it.



"When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by... Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction." - Noam Chomsky



Yes, I do. In the same way that Cambodian lives were better under the Vietnamese... South Korea, despite being a capitalist nation, is doing much better than North Korea. As far as I know, this is an objective fact... The South Korean capitalist democracy is certainly a step above a Monarchist State...



I admit it, I am a bourgeois, imperialist, class-traitor.



Yes.






This reminds me of the Stalinist argument, "By opposing Stalin, Trotsky was siding with the nazis."



What health care? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4


Take your ass to the OI

[Spawn of Stalin]

Personal attacks...classy.

Where did I make any sort of personal attack? All I did was point out the inherent theoretical problems with the poster. You want a personal attack? Learn to read.

[4 Leaf Clover]

It's a rhetorical question. But do tell, has there been any union disputes in the dprk lately? Any struggle for improved conditions and against bureaucrat privileges or political corruption? Any political protests or disputes (beyond people defecting to the ROK)?

Describe bureaucrat privileges and political corruption


China is the largest investor in and trading partner of North Korea.

And this again proves what ? That North Korea is , uhmmm , State Capitalist and that it is not anti-imperialist ?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Take your ass to the OI

“Bourgeois democracy, although a great historical advance in comparison with medievalism, always remains, and under capitalism is bound to remain, restricted, truncated, false and hypocritical, a paradise for the rich and a snare and deception for the exploited, for the poor.” – V. I. Lenin,

[Tzonteyotl]

To all who are criticizing individuals critical of North Korea because they are "blaming DPRK itself" for the problems. What do sanctions have to do with a hereditary power system and personality cult? While I'm sure there is quite a bit of exaggeration, do you think everything put out about the Kims are lies? He doesn't actually enjoy any special privileges? Perhaps they're made up, but Kim Jong-Il is said to regularly shoot holes-in-one while playing golf. How exactly is this http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm deification of a maniac something worthy of socialist support?

EDIT: Article doesn't link directly. Anyway, it was about annual seminar on the "Immortal feats" of Kim Jong-Il. That's the deification I'm referring to.

[The Vegan Marxist]

To all who are criticizing individuals critical of North Korea because they are "blaming DPRK itself" for the problems. What do sanctions have to do with a hereditary power system and personality cult? While I'm sure there is quite a bit of exaggeration, do you think everything put out about the Kims are lies? He doesn't actually enjoy any special privileges? Perhaps they're made up, but Kim Jong-Il is said to regularly shoot holes-in-one while playing golf. How exactly is this http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm deification of a maniac something worthy of socialist support?

EDIT: Article doesn't link directly. Anyway, it was about annual seminar on the "Immortal feats" of Kim Jong-Il. That's the deification I'm referring to.

I don't think any of us claim there isn't a problem in the cult of personality, nor the fact that, despite democratic means of electing their leaders and governmental officials, there's still a long gap between each election held by the WPK. The problems we have with those attacking the DPRK is when they attack them based on the fact that they're not exactly economically stable, using these problems as justification to blame the NKorean State, when in fact we should be pointing at the mass increase of sanctions being brought against them.

[Tzonteyotl]

The problems we have with those attacking the DPRK is when they attack them based on the fact that they're not exactly economically stable, using these problems as justification to blame the NKorean State, when in fact we should be pointing at the mass increase of sanctions being brought against them.

Okay. Granted there's some truth to that, how does support for the North Korean people in opposition to imperialism necessitate support for the deified North Korean leadership/state? I don't mean to generalize people's positions in this thread, but it kind of seems like that's what is being proposed here. And that an internal movement by the North Korean people against the leadership isn't possible at the moment. Granted, I think with the personality cult a factor, I can see why. But I still don't see how one must support the state itself to be on the side of the actual people.

[gorillafuck]

So is the American military. :)
The United States also loved Mao. So does your party.

I guess your party is pro-US by your own logic.


Yet, the DPRK has a more collective economy than Cuba does. So where can you even remotely state that the DPRK isn't Socialist, yet Cuba is?
On the subject of private sector in Cuba and the DPRK, Cuba doesn't advertise itself as a source of cheap labor for foreign corporations. The DPRK does.