Nat Turner

[Burn A Flag]

Recently my ultra right wing history teacher who worships Ronald Reagan has been *****ing about Nat Turner. Her criticism for him is that he indiscriminately killed and that he was bad. Apparently she read this out of "The Confessions of Nat Turner", written by him between capture and execution. (sounds so suspicious) What do the rest of us leftists think? Was Nat Turner a man to be admired or a psycopath?

[the last donut of the night]

Nat Turner by no means was a psychopath. He led one of the few and most successful slave rebellions in the South through organized struggle. He died a hero and calling him crazy is just lip-service to the racist words of rich whites.

[Burn A Flag]

Yes but her criticism of Nat Turner was that he killed "innocent" women and children. Any thoughts on that?

[~Spectre]

Yes but her criticism of Nat Turner was that he killed "innocent" women and children. Any thoughts on that?

The argument usually advanced in support of that part is that they were assuredly going to be slave owners anyway.

[S.Artesian]

Innocent women and children? Slaveholding women, and the children of slaveholders? Yes, some were killed by Turner's rebellion. So what?

If your teacher is reading William Styron's The Confessions of Nat Turner, she's reading fiction. Tell her to read Hugh Thomas' The Slave Trade which provides the facts on how many millions of innocent African people died in that bestial commerce.

[Burn A Flag]

Yeah I read the Wikipedia on that book now and it is fiction lol. Funny how she said Nat Turner wrote it. I am going to speak up if she starts talking about this again.

[Burn A Flag]

Actually scratch that, she was reading from the 1831 book written by his lawyer, Thomas Ruffin Gray.

[Agnapostate]

If that report is accurate, he killed people that were innocent (based on memory of that, there was some kind of incident where he and a few followers had left a house, and then remembered a young child or infant being there, so returned to kill it). He probably has a mixed legacy, as with someone like Goyathlay (Geronimo), who was involved in a righteous cause while committing immoral individual deeds along the way.

[S.Artesian]

Simple fact: no slavery-- no slaveholders' wives or children to kill.

Second simple fact: Enslave people's children, expect payback.

[Burn A Flag]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with both of you. It may not have been perfect on their part to kill infants, but "enslave people, expect payback" basically sums up my feelings about it.

[Agnapostate]

That doesn't seem very fair unless one adheres to a worldview of children as property, rather than beings without control over their parents' (really their father's) actions, and therefore a lack of complicity.

[S.Artesian]

Doesn't mean we like it. Doesn't mean we don't work to eliminate such acts, but rebellion is never perfectly organized by perfect people with perfect motivations and perfect plans with perfect foresight.

Doesn't even mean a revolutionary power won't seek out and punish those who inflict unnecessary violence-- but a revolutionary power would be and should be damned before it shrinks back from the struggle for fear of spilling "innocent blood," and double-damned if it fears defending the slaves' rising against the slaveholders.

[Burn A Flag]

I know, that's why I said that wasn't morally perfect. But I think Nat Turner can still be considered a decent revolutionary overall, even through the democide. Also, let's all remember the payback by white militias was many times worse than Nat Turner's rebellion in terms of brutality and death toll.

[S.Artesian]

Yes, it was. BTW, love the avatar.

[Red Commissar]

It seems your teacher has trouble comprehending the "revolt" part. How else could the slaves liberate themselves without violence in some degree? I mean, it wasn't like the slaves would have any sympathy for a segment of society whose lifestyle was built on their exploitation and suffering.

It also is important to look at the reaction of the southern landowners to the revolt. Like you said, there were retaliation attacks on slaves which claimed at the very least three times the amount that Nat Turner's crew killed. More over the numerous laws and actions put into place, as well as the slave owners becoming even more harsh towards their slaves.

Frankly though it's hard to deal with these types. I find it disheartening that these sorts of nutjobs worm their way into academic positions. I remember back when I was in middle school, and a bit into high school, our history department was dominated by conservative types who gave us, now that I look back on it, a really slanted view of history. But back then I was unfortunately a bit of a conservative wackjob so it didn't bother me, then.

At any rate it'd be hard to convince your professor otherwise, since it's a reflection of his political convictions.

When I took history in University though, our teacher was one of the more textbook liberal types, but she had us read some interesting accounts of Nat Turner's rebellion, and she was much more reasonable in her interpretation of it. I'd say even sympathetic.

The lawyer's accounts we can not be 100% sure of however. Even though it is considered to be one of the important primary sources, it was ultimately written by the lawyer and as such his views may have been interjected into the accounts of his talks with Nat Turner and his activities.

[Burn A Flag]

The odd thing to me is that her classroom is practically a Ronald Reagan shrine. I mean, she has like four pictures of him, including a Ronald Reagan calendar, so we get to see a new side of him every month. The fact that she's so opposed to Nat Turner, allegedly due to the fact his group killed women and children, makes it very odd that she worships Reagan so much. In fact, she showed outrage that there is a road in my area named after Nat Turner. The odd thing is that Reagan and his regime were complicit with and sponsored so much more indiscriminate death, yet she doesn't even care. I don't understand how she can be so fucking hypocritical. She against atrocities unless they're orchestrated by her heros.

[the last donut of the night]

The odd thing is that Reagan and his regime were complicit with and sponsored so much more indiscriminate death, yet she doesn't even care. I don't understand how she can be so fucking hypocritical. She against atrocities unless they're orchestrated by her heros.

That's probably because Reagan was white and rich.

[Burn A Flag]

Yeah and I'm sure she loves his tough stance on "communism".

[Red Commissar]

The odd thing to me is that her classroom is practically a Ronald Reagan shrine. I mean, she has like four pictures of him, including a Ronald Reagan calendar, so we get to see a new side of him every month. The fact that she's so opposed to Nat Turner, allegedly due to the fact his group killed women and children, makes it very odd that she worships Reagan so much. In fact, she showed outrage that there is a road in my area named after Nat Turner. The odd thing is that Reagan and his regime were complicit with and sponsored so much more indiscriminate death, yet she doesn't even care. I don't understand how she can be so fucking hypocritical. She against atrocities unless they're orchestrated by her heros.

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder when people complain about cult personalities among communists, and yet it happens with people anywhere else.

Still, it's a testament to the mindset of the conservatives in the United States, they see a need to frame history in such a way that suits their outlook.

[blake 3:17]

Ask her about Lincoln.

[RED DAVE]

Is it possible for you or your parents to complain about the Reagan calendar as proselytizing? Ask for an Obama calendar to be displayed prominently (just to bug her).

RED DAVE

[S.Artesian]

Is it possible for you or your parents to complain about the Reagan calendar as proselytizing? Ask for an Obama calendar to be displayed prominently (just to bug her).

RED DAVE

Put up the calendar with heroes of the civil rights movement-- Rosa Parks, Medgar Evers, etc etc. The heck with Obama.

[Burn A Flag]

How bout a Malcom X calendar? She'd love that. She told us to wear red white and blue for Veteran's day, and I wore my Che Shirt. :cool:

[S.Artesian]

That's cool.

[kasama-rl]

Here may be on place to start (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/):

The Slave Rebellion of General Nat Turner (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/)

By Mike Ely
http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/rebellion-th.jpg (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/)Slaveowners in the United States always insisted that “their” slaves were content and obedient. But research has documented at least 250 revolts, both large and small, in the U.S. during slavery times. And much was done to hide their existence. James Madison, the main author of the U.S. Constitution, warned in 1774 that it was best that “such attempts should be concealed as well as suppressed.” One of the largest revolts was led by the slave Nat Turner in Southampton County, Virginia during the summer of 1831.


Nat Turner was born on the Virginia farm of Benjamin Turner on October 2, 1800. It is said that his African-born mother so hated slavery that she wanted to kill Nat at birth rather than let him grow up in bondage.

full story here: http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/

[Burn A Flag]

That was a very interesting source. I was very interested to learn of the 1811 German Coast Uprising and of some sucessful slave rebellions that took place on ships.

Edit: wow it appears Nat Turner's Rebellion was completely class concious and included the group sparing the lives of poor whites. They only targeted slave owners.

[S.Artesian]

Here may be on place to start (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/):

[/URL]
Nat Turner was born on the Virginia farm of Benjamin Turner on October 2, 1800. It is said that his African-born mother so hated slavery that she wanted to kill Nat at birth rather than let him grow up in bondage.

full story here: [URL]http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/ (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/interviews/the-slave-rebellion-of-general-nat-turner/)

Slaves took vows to not have children while enslaved. Abortion was sometimes used.

[Burn A Flag]

Also, on a side note, today at lunch I met a legit racist. I asked him if he was a white supremacist, but he was ignorant to what the word supremacist means. How do you argue with this type of people that are so misinformed and ingorant that they think up is down? Oddly enough the rest of the people I was sitting with had no problem of his violently racist views, but said I was "weird because I am a communist". I guess that white nationalists are more tolerated than leftists in our society. :(

[StalinFanboy]

Yes but her criticism of Nat Turner was that he killed "innocent" women and children. Any thoughts on that?
What about the "innocent" women and children and men that were slaves?

Tell her to stop being a goddamn moralist.

[Agnapostate]

This is the relevant passage from his alleged confession; I actually happened to have the book that contained it lying next to me, albeit buried:


It was then observed that I must spill the first blood. On which, armed with a hatched and accompanied by Will, I entered my master's chamber; it being dark, I could not give a deathblow. The hatchet glanced from his head; he sprang from the bed and called his wife. It was his last word. Will laid him dead with a blow of his axe, and Mrs. Travis shared the same fate as she lay in bed. The murder of this family, five in number, was the work of a moment; not one of them awoke. There was a little infant sleeping in a cradle, that was forgotten, until we had left the house and gone some distance, when Henry and Will returned and killed it...

I have only a short passage in this book, but there's no immediate mention of his personal complicity in atrocities, or whether he had hierarchical authority over other slaves to an extent that he ordered specific atrocities to occur. But he does allegedly say, "neither age nor sex was to be spared (which was invariably adhered to)," which does indicate that he foresaw those consequences.

[Red Commissar]

Slaves took vows to not have children while enslaved. Abortion was sometimes used.

I read once that slave owners often used families to their advantage in keeping the Slaves from revolting, mostly by keeping the threat of breaking up their families if they acted up.

Of course that didn't stop the slave owners from going through with it anyways, but it shows how depraved they could be.

I mean all the while they were taking a moralistic approach, justifying it with religious interpretation and thinking they were being paternalistic or something. Unfortunately I think some of that seeps through today.


Also, on a side note, today at lunch I met a legit racist. I asked him if he was a white supremacist, but he was ignorant to what the word supremacist means. How do you argue with this type of people that are so misinformed and ingorant that they think up is down? Oddly enough the rest of the people I was sitting with had no problem of his violently racist views, but said I was "weird because I am a communist". I guess that white nationalists are more tolerated than leftists in our society. :(

In what way was he being racist?

[Invader Zim]

Innocent women and children? Slaveholding women, and the children of slaveholders? Yes, some were killed by Turner's rebellion. So what?

If your teacher is reading William Styron's The Confessions of Nat Turner, she's reading fiction. Tell her to read Hugh Thomas' The Slave Trade which provides the facts on how many millions of innocent African people died in that bestial commerce.

Actually I would be rather unwilling to suggest that an individual already loaded with rightwing nonsense regarding slavery pick up Hugh Thomas, it will only encourage any underlying rightwing misconceptions. This is because Hugh Thomas writes - in my opinion - a load of rightwing garbage, and The Slave Trade didn't strike me as an exception. It is also an odd recommendation to choose in thread about Nat Turner given that Thomas concluded the following:

"The reason why the Atlantic slave trade lasted so long is that in the Americas the African proved to be admirable workers, strong enough to survive the heat and the hard work on sugar, coffee, or cotton plantations or in mines, in building fortresses or merely acting as servants; and, at the same time, they were good-natured and usually docile."

P. 793.

This just isn't true, there is a plethora of literature which details slave rebellion and resistance, which Thomas simply has ignored. I also dispared of his 'Great man' approach to the abolition of the slave trade, and failure to address the vast array of social and cultural forces that made slavery untennable by the beginning of the 19th century (one of which was the threat posed by slaves themselves following the revolution in Haiti). Of course this historiographical approach is testiment to the fact that Thomas is a part of weird neo-conservative trend in recent historical scholarship. Richard J. Evans pointed this out and placed Thomas in the same league as the likes of G. R. Elton and Robert Conquest, and I entirely agree with him.

If you want a decent recommendation for an easily accessable book on slavery, written by a specialist in the area (which Thomas is not), I suggest James Walvin's A Short History of Slavery. Incidentally, Walvin also wrote a particularly cutting (and in my opinion very accurate) review of Thomas' book in Research in African Literatures, Vol. 29, No. 4 (Winter, 1998), pp. 184-187.

[Burn A Flag]

In what way was he being racist?

He was making comments about white power, making anti immigrant statements, and saying that he wanted to burn the whitehouse because there is a black in it.

[Red Commissar]

He was making comments about white power, making anti immigrant statements, and saying that he wanted to burn the whitehouse because there is a black in it.

Yuck, yeah that is definately racist. I remember when I was in middle-school one person was bemoaning the downfall of society at the hands of "blacks" because of crime and welfare leeching he attributed to them, and felt that had "they" stayed on slavery it would have given them better character. He even said as such to our history teacher then, which even made her uncomfortable despite her rather screwy view on history.

The reactionary nonsense was disgusting, but he ended up getting expelled after getting into a fight with another kid. Still, looking back on it, it makes me wonder about the environment the kid was growing up in (and indeed all the others like him) that cause them to hold such views.

[S.Artesian]

He was making comments about white power, making anti immigrant statements, and saying that he wanted to burn the whitehouse because there is a black in it.

You don't argue with people like that. Period. Ten years ago, the KKK decided it was going to show up in NYC and hold a rally. 20,000 people showed up in lower Manhattan with one idea, not to argue, but to find a way through the police lines and stop the rally.

That's what we're looking for-- not a debate, not an argument, but a mass action to shut these fucks up.

[Burn A Flag]

Sounds good, but I can't just beat the kid down at school. Also there is no way I am going to get any sort of mass action against 1 person. Maybe against a mass group though, as people do show very angry sentiments against the westboro baptist church group.

[S.Artesian]

Sounds good, but I can't just beat the kid down at school. Also there is no way I am going to get any sort of mass action against 1 person. Maybe against a mass group though, as people do show very angry sentiments against the westboro baptist church group.

Exactly-- ignore him. Organize against the actions of the group.

[Burn A Flag]

Fair point. After all I suppose it's a fair bit diffrent than the teacher who holds an influential position in influencing students.

[gorillafuck]

Also, on a side note, today at lunch I met a legit racist. I asked him if he was a white supremacist, but he was ignorant to what the word supremacist means. How do you argue with this type of people that are so misinformed and ingorant that they think up is down? Oddly enough the rest of the people I was sitting with had no problem of his violently racist views, but said I was "weird because I am a communist". I guess that white nationalists are more tolerated than leftists in our society. :(
I've met legit racists before, it's not common but it's not incredibley out of the ordinary. I am acquaintances with a few, despite their completely repugnant views. I only know one person who admittedly dislikes black people, I know more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim/Arab people. Such is life, sadly.

Nat Turner was a hero and he didn't try to kill all white people, that's what history textbooks that twist history say. He killed slaveowners. Even right-wing history textbooks acknowledge that he didn't kill white Quakers, but in reality he didn't kill white Quakers and those considered friends to slaves as well as poor whites who didn't own slaves.

[FreeFocus]

I have nothing bad to say about Nat Turner or any other leaders of slave revolts, and I refuse to criticize tactics used or actions undertaken. Slavery was such a brutal, disgusting institution that the killing of entire slave holding families, including babies, is understandable. Children of slave holders even had power over slaves and were served by slaves. Slave uprisings rightly targeted the institution and whoever nearby who upheld or participated in it. Sure, the baby or child probably did not commit atrocities themselves, but the likelihood of them coming to view slavery as wrong or fighting against it when their family is part of the slaveowning ruling class and slavery is ever pervasive is extremely slim.

I don't think killing babies was the most productive thing, but when you see your family separated and sold, your children taken away from you, your relatives whipped, and the day-to-day dehumanization of slavery, the frustration and desire to maybe, perhaps, inflict similar pain upon your oppressors, is fully understandable.

[blake 3:17]

She sounds like a very committed Right Winger. Reagan?

The preview for Bedtime For Bonzo (less than a minute) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zHN4vCfwh4

He was a scum bag who snitched on Leftists in Hollywood, suppressed student protests, fired the members of a union which supported him, and was a general creep.

I'd say forget Obama and ask her what she thinks of Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt.

The other thing to do would be to plan something for Martin Luther King Day. You're not convince her of anything but poke holes in her rightist stupidity.

[scarletghoul]

Nat Turner was one of the greatest people in US history. Your teacher can fuck herself.