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ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 19:02
Found some stuff on various sites and wondered how people feel about post-marxism? Is it progressive or is it dangerously revisionist?

http://libcom.org/library/post-marxism-without-apologies

http://www.marxsite.com/Marxist%20Critique%20of%20Post-Marxism.htm
Components of post-Marxism (from link above)


The intellectual proponents of post-Marxism in most instances are “ex-Marxists” whose point of departure is a “critique” of Marxism and the elaboration of counterpoints to each basic proposition as the basis for attempting to provide an alternative theory or at least a plausible line of analysis. It is possible to more or less synthesise ten basic arguments that are usually found in the post-Marxist discourse:
Socialism was a failure and all “general theories” of societies are condemned to repeat this process. Ideologies are false (except post-Marxism!) because they reflect a world of thought dominated by a single gender/race culture system.
The Marxist emphasis on social class is “reductionist” because classes are dissolving; the principle political points of departure are cultural and rooted in diverse identities (race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference).
The state is the enemy of democracy and freedom and a corrupt and inefficient deliverer of social welfare. In its place, “civil society” is the protagonist of democracy and social improvement.
Central planning leads to and is a product of bureaucracy which hinders the exchange of goods between producers. Markets and market exchanges, perhaps with limited regulations, allow for greater consumption and more efficient distribution.
The traditional left’s struggle for state power is corrupting and leads to authoritarian regimes which then subordinate civil society to its control. Local struggles over local issues by local organisations are the only democratic means of change, along with petition/pressure on national and international authorities.
Revolutions always end badly or are impossible: social transformations threaten to provoke authoritarian reactions. The alternative is to struggle for and consolidate democratic transitions to safeguard electoral processes.
Class solidarity is part of past ideologies, reflecting earlier politics and realities. Classes no longer exist. There are fragmented “locales” where specific groups (identities) and localities engage in self-help and reciprocal relations for “survival” based on cooperation with external supporters. Solidarity is a cross-class phenomena, a humanitarian gesture.
Class struggle and confrontation does not produce tangible results; it provokes defeats and fails to solve immediate problems. Government and international cooperation around specific projects does result in increases in production and development.
Anti-imperialism is another expression of the past that has outlived its time. In today’s globalised economy, there is no possibility of confronting the economic centres. The world is increasingly interdependent and in this world there is a need for greater international cooperation in transferring capital, technology and know-how from the “rich” to the “poor” countries.
Leaders of popular organisations should not be exclusively oriented toward organising the poor and sharing their conditions. Internal mobilisation should be based on external funding. Professionals should design programmes and secure external financing to organise local groups. Without outside aid, local groups and professional careers would collapse.
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/research/gramsci-journal/articles/MikeDonaldson-article_first_issue.pdf

The reason I ask is that I read a lot of the different views here and it reminds me of this quote:-


Baudrillard (1990: 206) in http://econgeog.misc.hit-u.ac.jp/icgg/intl_mtgs/RGSmith.pdf


“ The daughter of the famous Winchester ... heard a prediction that she would
die when her house was completed – just revenge for the thousands of victims
which the only too famous carbine had created in the West over a century.
Then, like Penelope, she began to build a house without end, interminably
adding bedrooms, staircases, annexes. She died in the end, in the 1930s,
leaving behind a monstrous 150-bedroom house as a memorial to the
holocaust of the nineteenth century.”

Chris
14th November 2010, 19:10
Seem like social democrats to me.

ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 19:14
Seem like social democrats to me.

LOL!!! That's what I thought too.

Havet
14th November 2010, 19:23
Be careful with Robert's wa!

Robert
14th November 2010, 19:37
Too late. :crying:

Thanks anyway.

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 20:56
Post Marxist seems pretty close to my position.

ZeroNowhere
14th November 2010, 21:01
Revolutions always end badly or are impossible

In its place, “civil society” is the protagonist of democracy and social improvement.
Hey, wait a minute...

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 21:03
Hey, wait a minute...

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 22:16
Post Marxist seems pretty close to my position.

There's hope for Comrade Bud yet...

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 22:55
There just isn't going to be a "Revolution" ever that will ever make sense. It's will be nice well iinformed people agreeing to make a change that will benefit us all.

It's the REAL logical answer. Revolutions are an abandonment of common sense and logic and rationality.

Revolutions are a temper tantrum.

We need to work for a better world. Really: Logically and rationally.

ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 22:57
There just isn't going to be a "Revolution" ever that will ever make sense. It's will be nice well iinformed people agreeing to make a change that will benefit us all.

It's the REAL logical answer. Revolutions are an abandonment of common sense and logic and rationality.

Revolutions are a temper tantrum.

We need to work for a better world. Really: Logically and rationally.

You see comrades, this is how to convert hardened cappies--he's already showing signs of cracking.

Could Post-Marxism be a cunning ploy? Then when people like Bud have voted them in we start organising May Day parades and mass public exercise propaganda films...:lol: After we nationalise real estate too...

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 23:00
You see comrades, this is how to convert hardened cappies--he's already showing signs of cracking.

Could Post-Marxism be a cunning ploy? Then when people like Bud have voted them in we start organising May Day parades and mass public exercise propaganda films...:lol: After we nationalise real estate too...

No not real estate. Anything else....NOT THAT!!!

ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 23:01
No not real estate. Anything else....NOT THAT!!!

Sorry Bud, but that's how it has to be. Social housing, but if you're good you could join the party and become minister for housing affairs. ;)

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 23:12
Sorry Bud, but that's how it has to be. Social housing, but if you're good you could join the party and become minister for housing affairs. ;)

And then as Commissar of housing I could "sample" housing here and there.

Well maybe I could like Communism--a bit. ;)

Robert
14th November 2010, 23:17
Social housing

Now where did I put that cyanide capsule?

ComradeMan
14th November 2010, 23:19
Now where did I put that cyanide capsule?

Why? What's wrong with that? A house for everyone- and no sub-prime mortgages etc etc.

Sorry, but American caps can't lecture the rest of the world about issues around housing can they?

Bud Struggle
14th November 2010, 23:33
Why? What's wrong with that? A house for everyone- and no sub-prime mortgages etc etc.

Sorry, but American caps can't lecture the rest of the world about issues around housing can they?

Yea, but I want to buy a house in Sicily. I'll put lots of money in the place. The local artisans will rip me off but I'll keep paying. I'll order wine when I'm there. And food. I'll add to the community. I'm Catholic so no doubt I'll be adding a roof to the local church. (For artistic purposes only as far as Communists are concerned.)

I don't like staying in hotels. I like homes.

Revolution starts with U
14th November 2010, 23:36
I just want to let you guys know, I'm in another plane of reality right now. :cool:

Widerstand
14th November 2010, 23:36
Is this related to Neo-Marxism?

Robert
14th November 2010, 23:40
Sorry, but American caps can't lecture the rest of the world about issues around housing can they?

I'm not lecturing. I'm just voting "no." And my vote counts, right?

mikelepore
15th November 2010, 01:25
Seem like social democrats to me.I would apply the term "conservatives", based on their assertion that "classes no longer exist."

Bud Struggle
15th November 2010, 01:33
I just want to let you guys know, I'm in another plane of reality right now. :cool:

I'm certainly on a nother plane of realty--that's for sure. :D

ComradeMan
15th November 2010, 11:10
Yea, but I want to buy a house in Sicily. I'll put lots of money in the place. The local artisans will rip me off but I'll keep paying. I'll order wine when I'm there. And food. I'll add to the community. I'm Catholic so no doubt I'll be adding a roof to the local church. (For artistic purposes only as far as Communists are concerned.)

I don't like staying in hotels. I like homes.

Well- we weren't talking about a world state as it were- but if you were a retired person there would be nothing to stop you exchanging houses with a Sicilian or moving to a vacant house- you just couldn't keep your old one too or sell it for profit.

Lt. Ferret
21st November 2010, 01:55
forgot to post in here til just now. i'm basically a Post-Marxist, though I do not like the title.

ComradeMan
21st November 2010, 11:59
forgot to post in here til just now. i'm basically a Post-Marxist, though I do not like the title.


Explain more please Lieut.....

Lt. Ferret
21st November 2010, 18:03
Explain more please Lieut.....


I think that the 19th century version of marxism is irrelevent. I think that all "marxist" governments have proven to be abject failures. I have seen "capitalist' systems overtake and rip up marxist systems and give its citizens a better way of life. If the only thing we have to show for Cuba is a higher literacy level, if thats all, then trash the system. the Soviet union was dog shit. china murdered millions of people. cambodia and north korea are the very definition of failed state.


These are not precedents and examples to use to argue for Marxism, Socialism, or Communism. I believe that these words have not been soiled beyond all redemption, but the way we use them now are useless.

So I am in favor of a myriad of smaller forces joining together to form a new marxism. Anti-capitalism, Anti-sexist, Anti-racist, anti this and that, and all of it local and individualistic to each individual circumstance. The days of the Communist International are over, international Marxism as an equal playing field are over . It will be local units pursuing local issues and fixing local problems, not an American standard for fixing Iranian working class issues, or any other combination.

Sturzo
22nd November 2010, 16:54
As much as I hate to admit it, I think those points pretty much swallow what is the reality of the world is today and realistically what socialists can expect to work off of.

The long-expected proletarian revolution really never happened, and largely their support got won by political parties that catered their their pragmatic immediate interests than by promises of pie-in-the-sky interests. Again, as I hate to admit it, Social democratic parties, as much as one can hate them (especially on this board), have been more accountable to getting the interests of the working class done than any Communist Party has, who has either been ineffective (not in power), or just down right repressive (in power). There are still struggles and attacks on the workers' rights (look at austerity currently), but by and large social democracy has been successful in giving workers more rights and greater living standards than any non-revisionist Marxist party ever has.

I agree that all grand-theories fail, socialist or otherwise. Capitalist modernization theory was an abject failure as well. I think our best chance of improving our world is by a case-by-case basis.

Sure, Social Democrats have 'betrayed' workers before, there are injustices in the world every day, and sometimes things go backwards rather than forwards - but that's why we keep trying and struggling to make the right change. And in the long run, I think progressives and socialists have made a ton of progress. Just giving up, ignoring the complexities of the wold, and declaring that violent total 180 degree revolution is the only solution will only make us worse off than we were before.

More later.