what do you think of martin smith ?

[learningaboutheleft123]

what do you think of the SWP national secretary Martin Smith. I don't know much about him, but from what I can see, he is very unpatriotic and from the videos I have seen, he doesn't seem affective.

What do you think ?

[learningaboutheleft123]

http://islamthefarleftandmisc.blogspot.com/2009/10/letter-to-birmingham-post-on-yaqoob-and.html

Though, I do agree with him on this article.

[The Idler]

Stop thuggery in workers' movement - Communist Party of Great Britain (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpgb.org.uk%2Farticle.php%3Fa rticle_id%3D93&ei=t17gTOm3DMPPhAeWztixDQ&usg=AFQjCNF34S4gy3CMAaEoOO3u651Wy28Klw&sig2=Z_kau4LqTkYgNDZtA2qtoA)

Martin Smith and his telephone expulsion :: Weekly Worker 617 ... (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpgb.org.uk%2Fworker2%2Findex .php%3Faction%3Dviewarticle%26article_id%3D750&ei=t17gTOm3DMPPhAeWztixDQ&usg=AFQjCNFr9r4L4CaUsZb6hXYKwy4vq48gGw&sig2=UzMY9L1cYhyXowcPbPfqmg)

Expelled by the SWP inquisition Eric Karas describes - Communist ... (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpgb.org.uk%2Farticle.php%3Fa rticle_id%3D1000306&ei=t17gTOm3DMPPhAeWztixDQ&usg=AFQjCNGoDR-Sj8NaJcNsBqpuCCUwHYgoEg&sig2=XEyCz2wVnjIYZGydfw2ztg)

[Sam_b]

What do you mean by 'patriotic'?

We also don't politically class people by 'like' and 'don't like'.

[scarletghoul]

i never met him

[durhamleft]

dont have too much time for him i must admit.

mainly cos he wears stone island clothes that cost £300 odd a jumper and i think to maself what a fucking waste of money, bit hypocritical.

also, he sometimes is a bit blunt i feel, on issues i agree with him on (ie the union jack and what it stands for) i just think being so blatant about it in the current climate only drives working class people away from the left.

also, he's a bit of a thug.

[Sam_b]

bit hypocritical.

How? Are working class people not allowed to spend their money on fashion brands?


also, he's a bit of a thug.

Substanciate your slander.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Substanciate your slander.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=93

[Sam_b]

Never proven though, was it, by the provocateurs in the heebie geebies? Who, funnily enough, have completely shut up about it.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This thread should go in the trash. Absolutely ridiculous.

How many people here have even met Martin Smith? Nobody else can really answer the poll question and those who can - who cares. This is a revolutionary forum, not a fucking popularity contest.

[DaringMehring]

I met him.

He seemed like a solid guy, but there's only so much one can get from a 20 minute presentation in a pub.

I think its sad how the Respect venture went down and Rees had to take the fall for it. But it was a bad political move. We'll see how the new leadership handles things.

[Widerstand]

What is leftist Tabloidism-Gossipism and how do we fight it?



This thread should go in the trash. Absolutely ridiculous.

How many people here have even met Martin Smith? Nobody else can really answer the poll question and those who can - who cares. This is a revolutionary forum, not a fucking popularity contest.

this x1000

[Q]

Never proven though, was it, by the provocateurs in the heebie geebies? Who, funnily enough, have completely shut up about it.

Gee, I wonder why they would stop raging about it after 3.5 years :rolleyes:

Of course, the incident at this year's Marxism (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004007) was also dreamt up, right?

Although this time it wasn't as bad as rolling on the floor fighting about with the national organiser, I guess.

[pastradamus]

This thread should go in the trash. Absolutely ridiculous.

How many people here have even met Martin Smith? Nobody else can really answer the poll question and those who can - who cares. This is a revolutionary forum, not a fucking popularity contest.

Well obviously we can talk about his political views from an outside perspective. I understand its not a popularity contest but the Original question still stands as valid in my opinion. I've never met George Bush and I've never met Che Guevara but I know which one I like and which one I dont.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The question was do we 'like him' or not. That says nothing about the person's political views.

What I would contribute is that if anybody could substantiate these stories of Smith attacking CPGB comrades and what have you, then that should be condemned and he should not be sitting on the CC of any left-wing political organisation.

However, i've only seen what i've read in the Weekly Worker, so i'll not make accusations based on something I can't substantiate. I'll give Smith the benefit of the doubt for now.

A more veritable question, if one wanted to inquire, would be regarding the SWP as an organisation, not just Martin Smith.

[Sam_b]

Although this time it wasn't as bad as rolling on the floor fighting about with the national organiser, I guess.

Your tit-for-tat gossipmongering is a valuable contribution to the left at this time.

[pastradamus]

The question was do we 'like him' or not. That says nothing about the person's political views.

What I would contribute is that if anybody could substantiate these stories of Smith attacking CPGB comrades and what have you, then that should be condemned and he should not be sitting on the CC of any left-wing political organisation.

However, i've only seen what i've read in the Weekly Worker, so i'll not make accusations based on something I can't substantiate. I'll give Smith the benefit of the doubt for now.

A more veritable question, if one wanted to inquire, would be regarding the SWP as an organisation, not just Martin Smith.

Well I can see where your coming from and dont get me wrong. Personally I have absolutely no problem with him (smith) and politically I dont really care too much to be honest - he does seem like a politically knowledgeable guy and a true leftist.

But in fairness I believe the original poster when he queried; "what do you think of martin smith" was applying that as a political question. I mean we dont have anyone here commenting on his haircut or anything like that.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Fair enough, but surely if we want to critique this man's politics, we can do better than 'he's unpatriotic' and 'he wears expensive clothes'.

In any case, I am slightly taken aback by the severity of some accusations in the Weekly Worker against Martin Smith, particularly those made by Zuri Zurowski and Claire Fisher. Could Sam_b or someone from the SWP clear this issue up? I don't really want to go either side of the fence until i've heard both sides of the argument; as i've said before i've got nothing against Martin Smith, personally or politically, but those stories are somewhat worrisome.

[gorillafuck]

This is a revolutionary forum, not a fucking popularity contest.It means do you like his political contributions.


what do you think of the SWP national secretary Martin Smith. I don't know much about him, but from what I can see, he is very unpatriotic and from the videos I have seen, he doesn't seem affective.

What do you think ?Why would he be patriotic?

Patriotism is nationalism, and what nationalism stands for (this is simplified) is class collaborationism. It's based on the idea that classes, the working class and bourgeoisie, should co-operate for the betterment of their nation, it throws class politics away.

[blake 3:17]

I'm not sure how to take CPGB criticisms, but the suggestion of creating some kind of resolutions process seems warranted. I never heard of Martin Smith til 5 minutes ago.

In my years on the Left, I've discovered a terrible lack of process in dealing with conflicts and particularly difficult individuals. The best we usually get is an expulsion or a shunning. I could get into specificities, but am curious as to others thoughts on this.

A large meeting of a group I'm involved with, had a couple of nasty incidents by one person in the course of the day (verbal disruptions, but also threats of physical violence against particular people). The person involved is a long time lefty, and has done really great work, but he was acting like a goon. One organizer was threatened while another tried to blow it off. This stuff happens all the time, and unless we want be reliant on the police or organize in a vacuum, dealing with these common problems is necessary.

Should this be a new thread?

[The Idler]

A serious allegation about the conduct of a senior official in the SWP is made and the SWP fails to publish any findings of any investigation and worse, members and supporters dismiss it as gossip-mongering. There's probably something revealing in describing the CPGB as "provocateurs" (substantiate your allegation). At the very least, it reflects badly on the SWP organisation.

In fact, lots of serious criticism of the SWP from the left outside of the organisation is dismissed as "gossip". Let's be clear, "gossip" implies something trivial or irrelevant which allegations of assault or criticism of political strategy are not.

[blake 3:17]

Does the English Far Left have mechanism for resolving these kinds of disputes?

I've had to deal with a fair number in my time. Sometimes it has meant expulsion, other times apologies with promises to behave better in future, and more often processes have been lacking. The formal processes have worked best when there was a common membership and could be dealt with internally. I can think of one occasion when a member of a group I was in had their membership temporarily suspended. They got angry and left.

There seems to be some conflating of a person's political ideas with their behaviour. When I voted for one brother to be expelled, I actually supported his political views but had to condemn his behaviour as sexist bullying.

On another occasion a very close friend was very public in their criticism of a movement organization in which I was involved. I feel some remorse for not having been the gobetween or mediator -- I had other shit storms in my life at the time and didn't rise to the occasion.

One factor is worth thinking about is the role that Internet communications play -- sometimes people make claims under pseudonyms, it is very easy to make a statement and have it circulate widely, people who have nothing immediately to do with conflict are given the chance to preach from the sidelines.

I nearly totally avoid disputes in emigre communities of which there are quite a lot on the Left here. There are factional disputes that I just don't understand.

[DaringMehring]

A serious allegation about the conduct of a senior official in the SWP is made and the SWP fails to publish any findings of any investigation and worse, members and supporters dismiss it as gossip-mongering. There's probably something revealing in describing the CPGB as "provocateurs" (substantiate your allegation). At the very least, it reflects badly on the SWP organisation.

In fact, lots of serious criticism of the SWP from the left outside of the organisation is dismissed as "gossip". Let's be clear, "gossip" implies something trivial or irrelevant which allegations of assault or criticism of political strategy are not.

Why should the SWP conduct internal investigations on the basis of criticism by other Parties, with whom they have political differences and who try to take their members.

No Party holds itself to that standard.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

The CPGB want publicity, and making drearily regular accusations against a prominent member of Britain's leading socialist party and then forgetting about them is an easy way to do it. Even communists are only human, after all, and some of them are attention-seekers.

Martin is a sound guy and an inspirational speaker. As a socialist I'm glad that he's "unpatriotic", and it says a lot that the rest of the left think that this is something to attack him with, along with the fact that he's blunt about telling the truth. Our apologies for not being ashamed to be revolutionary internationalist socialists.

[mossy noonmann]

really

bin this thread

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The CPGB want publicity, and making drearily regular accusations against a prominent member of Britain's leading socialist party and then forgetting about them is an easy way to do it. Even communists are only human, after all, and some of them are attention-seekers.

Martin is a sound guy and an inspirational speaker. As a socialist I'm glad that he's "unpatriotic", and it says a lot that the rest of the left think that this is something to attack him with, along with the fact that he's blunt about telling the truth. Our apologies for not being ashamed to be revolutionary internationalist socialists.

Agree whole-heartedly with the second paragraph.

However, I think the guy above has a point when he points out the difference between 'gossip' and a 'serious allegation'.

Whilst I don't want to be negative prematurely about Martin Smith, I do believe that the Zurowski/Fisher allegations are something that need to be addressed by the SWP.

[Sam_b]

A serious allegation about the conduct of a senior official in the SWP is made and the SWP fails to publish any findings of any investigation

I couldn't give a fuck about revealing the results of internal investigations to you.

Also, Q as usual hiding behind his thanks button, but no doubt he'll come out for this and dismiss that not having everything completely open to the scrutiny of all is the hight of sectarianism.

[Q]

Also, Q as usual hiding behind his thanks button
?


but no doubt he'll come out for this and dismiss that not having everything completely open to the scrutiny of all is the hight of sectarianism.
Not everything, there clearly are security issues to be dealt with for example. However, our politics should be the matter of the entire class. Using thuggish methods does bring into question the politics of the SWP. Or, as one of the articles that The Idler linked put it:


Means and ends are connected. Means determine ends and ends determine means. Those who expel critics for merely being critical, those who unleash violence against those with whom they disagree, merely because they disagree, those who ban, bully and beat can hardly be expected to usher in a world of general freedom.

[Lyev]

Peter Taaffe is waaaay better!!!

[Sam_b]

Using thuggish methods does bring into question the politics of the SWP

Would perhaps if 'thuggish methods' were used.

[Widerstand]

Would perhaps if 'thuggish methods' were used.

Yeah huh all those articles are just made up slander, right?

[The Idler]

Why should the SWP conduct internal investigations on the basis of criticism by other Parties, with whom they have political differences and who try to take their members.

No Party holds itself to that standard.
Actually even bourgeois parties reveal the results of internal investigations on the basis of criticism by other parties, with whom they have political differences and who try to take their members. Look up Mark Oaten, Ann Winterton and Lord Young. There are far-left examples too, the International Committee for a Fourth International investigated Gerry Healy and exposed the thug that he was.

The CPGB want publicity, and making drearily regular accusations against a prominent member of Britain's leading socialist party and then forgetting about them is an easy way to do it. Even communists are only human, after all, and some of them are attention-seekers.
What are these regular accusations that they also forget about, and isn't that somewhat contradictory?

Martin is a sound guy and an inspirational speaker. As a socialist I'm glad that he's "unpatriotic", and it says a lot that the rest of the left think that this is something to attack him with, along with the fact that he's blunt about telling the truth. Our apologies for not being ashamed to be revolutionary internationalist socialists.The charge of lack of patriotism is one originating with a BNP Youtube video of Martin Smith and repeated here by someone from the mainstream who is unfamiliar with socialism and internationalism. Its not a left criticism. Unless you're in the BNP, simply bashing Britain isn't enough to make a revolutionary internationalist socialist.

I couldn't give a fuck about revealing the results of internal investigations to you.

Also, Q as usual hiding behind his thanks button, but no doubt he'll come out for this and dismiss that not having everything completely open to the scrutiny of all is the hight of sectarianism.
If there ever were any internal investigations into senior officials alleged assault against non-members, why wouldn't they be revealed?

Would perhaps if 'thuggish methods' were used.
I guess we'll never know if thuggish methods were used, thanks to your stance on revealing investigations results. At least you're talking about investigations rather than "gossip" now though I suppose.

[The Grey Blur]

his thuggishness reflects a general mentality of the worst elements of the swp, a macho approach to politics and democratic discussion. i've mentioned a few times but again, i was physically threatened by an swp member for open political criticism of cliff's state capitalist theories and also their approach to questions like fighting fascism etc (i know, it was as ridiculous/pathetic as it sounds). another member, a sound younger guy, told me that his elders in the party told him that i was a "sectarian" and to avoid talking to me*. even after this i still worked with the swp on my campus and even had the same thug tell me that he really meant to get round to reading marx some time when he saw me reading some collected works :laugh:. i've heard martin smith talk and i find his posturing a bit ridiculous but it does seem to impress the lowest common denominator so there you go. some people will think with their balls rather than their brains. i sent a complaint to swp hq but never heard anything back about it.

the worst/funniest thing is stuff like the post from corsair rouge above, that it's all about attacking "britain's leading socialist party"...are you guys serious? you're all tiny tiny fish in a gigantic pond, talk about delusional. this was the same sort of stuff used to brainwash the younger guy from the swp i was chatting to...extreme paranoia, that any political criticism is just "jealously"...yes, everyone is jealous of the swp's 4 paper sales as opposed to the militant/cpgb/weekly worker/worker's power/socialist resistanceetcetc 1 or 2 each. utterly utterly delusional stuff. i agree harmful sectarianism is bad, but criticism of the swp's lowest-common-denominator version of marxism (while still working alongside them on shared political tasks, as i and most of the others in this thread have happily done) is not.

* this is the important part - no political rebuttal (they leave that to the intellectuals) just 'beware, contrary opinions'. also, i am quite a friendly open personable guy not the leftist trainspotting nerd my posts might give the impression of. so it's not like i am some maniac sectarian trying to destroy the swp, just a harmless guy (i don't even belong to any british left groupuscule) with a few contary political thoughts and that was enough to have me branded a 'sectarian' lol

[The Grey Blur]

also, this thread was created by an undercover EDL troll. they have a thing for martin smith for some reason.