What Defines Capitalism?

[hobo8675309]

Capitalism is a system of free enterprise, a system that allows private people the freedom to make a profit and choose where to work and invest there money. Awww, that's cute, but the sad thing is, America is not capitalist. In fact there has not been a true capitalist nation since the 1800's, and there never will be.

Like communism, capitalism is a great idea, but it will never work. As soon as the stock market emerged after the industrial revolution, greedy corporations destroyed the capitalist system and degraded to a post-capitalist kelptocracy, a reduction from a system of free enterprise to a system of every buisiness being controlled by a CEO from a corporation.

So, with capitalism and communism both being fanasies incapable of creation, does that mean we are doomed to choose one or the other? The most appealing solution must be to disband these labels in favor of a less partisan system, voting in favor of mixed legislation to support a welfare state and preserve liberty.

[Ocean Seal]

Capitalism is a system of free enterprise, a system that allows private people the freedom to make a profit and choose where to work and invest there money. Awww, that's cute, but the sad thing is, America is not capitalist. In fact there has not been a true capitalist nation since the 1800's, and there never will be.

Like communism, capitalism is a great idea, but it will never work. As soon as the stock market emerged after the industrial revolution, greedy corporations destroyed the capitalist system and degraded to a post-capitalist kelptocracy, a reduction from a system of free enterprise to a system of every buisiness being controlled by a CEO from a corporation.

So, with capitalism and communism both being fanasies incapable of creation, does that mean we are doomed to choose one or the other? The most appealing solution must be to disband these labels in favor of a less partisan system, voting in favor of mixed legislation to support a welfare state and preserve liberty.
No. No welfare state, yes socialism.
What we must remember is that capitalism as you stated has never existed as described above because of the system of wage slavery. Communism is not a fantasy though, and we understand that we cannot reach it within our lives. The change that we must strive for is socialism. The ownership of the means of production by the people. This can and will be achieved.

[robbo203]

Capitalism is a system of free enterprise, a system that allows private people the freedom to make a profit and choose where to work and invest there money. Awww, that's cute, but the sad thing is, America is not capitalist. In fact there has not been a true capitalist nation since the 1800's, and there never will be.

Like communism, capitalism is a great idea, but it will never work. As soon as the stock market emerged after the industrial revolution, greedy corporations destroyed the capitalist system and degraded to a post-capitalist kelptocracy, a reduction from a system of free enterprise to a system of every buisiness being controlled by a CEO from a corporation.

So, with capitalism and communism both being fanasies incapable of creation, does that mean we are doomed to choose one or the other? The most appealing solution must be to disband these labels in favor of a less partisan system, voting in favor of mixed legislation to support a welfare state and preserve liberty.


Capitalism is NOT a system of free enterrpise. A system of free enterrpise is only one variant of capitalism, there are quite a few others including mixed capitalism, corporate capitalism and state capitalism. Free enterprise thus does not really capture the essence of capitalism which is a system based amongst other things on generalised commodity production, wage labour, capital accumulation and the profit motive

[WeAreReborn]

Capitalism is a system of free enterprise, a system that allows private people the freedom to make a profit and choose where to work and invest there money. Awww, that's cute, but the sad thing is, America is not capitalist. In fact there has not been a true capitalist nation since the 1800's, and there never will be.

Like communism, capitalism is a great idea, but it will never work. As soon as the stock market emerged after the industrial revolution, greedy corporations destroyed the capitalist system and degraded to a post-capitalist kelptocracy, a reduction from a system of free enterprise to a system of every buisiness being controlled by a CEO from a corporation.

So, with capitalism and communism both being fanasies incapable of creation, does that mean we are doomed to choose one or the other? The most appealing solution must be to disband these labels in favor of a less partisan system, voting in favor of mixed legislation to support a welfare state and preserve liberty.
Communism won't work? How exactly did you draw this conclusion?

You are thinking of a completely free market similar to Laissez-Faire Capitalism or Anarcho-Capitalism. Either way you must realize there are many different variants of Capitalism, it is not one singular thought. Thinking otherwise would lead you to such ridiculous claims as those above.

[syndicat]

Capitalism consists of at least these features:

1. a great majority of the productive property -- things used to produce things people want or assets that could be used in a market economy to acquire means of prodction -- are owned by a minority class called "capitalists". that is, this class has a relative monopoly of productive property.

2. the largest part of the population do not own means of production or productive property. at least, not enough to live off of. they must seek out jobs from the firms owned by the capitalists (or from the state, which is controlled by the capitalists). workers are forced to work for the capitalist firms, and to work under the control of an autocratically organized internal management regime. so much for "freedom".

3. the various production organizations are relatively autonomous sellers and buyers in a market. they buy or rent means of production, hire workers and managers, and sell commodities. they own the revenue from the sale. if the revenue is more than the expenses, they make a profit, if not, then a loss. firms are forced to seek profit, to acquire new means of production, to expand their market share, develop new markets, because if they don't do these things, they will be defeated by other firms. so the drive for profit is a feature of a capitalist economy.

the minority dominating class are called "capitalists" because they possess the power (the power of capital) to go out into markets for factors of production and acquire all they need to do production...hire workers & managers, buy equipment, buildings, land, etc. this power is what capital is. it's a power relation because it gives the capital possessor power over the classes their firms hire (workers and managers).

"freedom" is an essentially contested concept. capitalists want the freedom to do what they will with the working abillities of the people they hire, whereas for workers being free, self-determining, is inconsistent with capitalists & managers having that power over them. so the "freedom" of the capitalist and the "freedom" of the worker are directly in conflict. insofar as the working class historically have been able to exert some influence in the political realm, they've been able to secure limits to the absolute power of the capitalists over them. of course the advocates of laissez faire would like to remove those constraints. but total laissez faire is merely a capitalist ideal that couldn't be realized except in the worst capitalist dictatorship I suppose. and then where would there be "freedom"?

[William Howe]

What defines capitalism? Exploitation, poverty, cruelty, corruption, and failure. :laugh:

[robbo203]

What defines capitalism? Exploitation, poverty, cruelty, corruption, and failure. :laugh:

No thats not enough. This could equally define feudalism or ancient slavery. Capitalism is a system of generalised commodity production , the complete separation of the producers from the means of production and their explotiation by the owning/controlling class through a system of wage labour. Wherever you have generalised wage labour, you have capitalism and capitalism takes many forms including so called "socialism"

[learningaboutheleft123]

I can define 'capitalists' as greedy pigs who hate the working classes. Thats a no brainer.

[RadioRaheem84]

I would argue that what constitutes capitalism is the overall means of production and the overall social hierarchy in the workplace it creates as a result of ownership of the MOP being in the hands of a few.

State capitalism under the USSR was still functionally capitalist in some regards and in some regards a step toward socialism.

[robbo203]

I would argue that what constitutes capitalism is the overall means of production and the overall social hierarchy in the workplace it creates as a result of ownership of the MOP being in the hands of a few.

State capitalism under the USSR was still functionally capitalist in some regards and in some regards a step toward socialism.

In what sense was the state capitalist soviet union a step towards socialism? On the contrary I would have said it was a very effective barrier to genuine socialism. It tarred the good name of socialism associating it with an oppressive vanguardist dictatorship and by utilising the language of socialist emancipation, it enabled the Soviet ruling class to all the more effectively impose its own class interests on the exploited majority and crush internal dissent. In almost every respect it was retrogressive from the standpoint of genuine socialism. I suspect that had the Soviet Union not existed we would have been far closer to the real thing than we actually are today.

[MellowViper]

highly stratified economic structure in which desperation is used as a bargaining chip, as corporations do with the work force in the third world. People are just viewed in the same way as commodities, simply a means to an end, and the end is accumulating as much capital for yourself. It has little to do with lack of government, being that capitalista often use their wealth to manipulate politics to their advantage and get contracts from the government to stick their hands in the public money pot.

[Nolan]

1. a great majority of the productive property -- things used to produce things people want or assets that could be used in a market economy to acquire means of prodction -- are owned by a minority class called "capitalists". that is, this class has a relative monopoly of productive property.

2. the largest part of the population do not own means of production or productive property. at least, not enough to live off of. they must seek out jobs from the firms owned by the capitalists (or from the state, which is controlled by the capitalists). workers are forced to work for the capitalist firms, and to work under the control of an autocratically organized internal management regime. so much for "freedom".

3. the various production organizations are relatively autonomous sellers and buyers in a market. they buy or rent means of production, hire workers and managers, and sell commodities. they own the revenue from the sale. if the revenue is more than the expenses, they make a profit, if not, then a loss. firms are forced to seek profit, to acquire new means of production, to expand their market share, develop new markets, because if they don't do these things, they will be defeated by other firms. so the drive for profit is a feature of a capitalist economy.




This, more or less. Some of 3 are more characteristics of "free market capitalism." Looking back at capitalism throughout its history, we can see varying degrees of firm autonomy, and it has not always been a story of "free markets."

Even today, some of the things you described don't necessarily apply, usually because of the state.

[Tablo]

Can you not basically define capitalism based on the prevailing class relations? Like capitalism is bourgeoisie and proletariat, feudalism is serfs and the aristocracy, slave society were slave and master. Obviously this would be a very simplistic approach, but general economic systems all seem to have there own dominant class relations..

[Rafiq]

Capitalism: Competitive

Communism: Cooperative