United Left Alliance to contest Irish General Election

[Jolly Red Giant]

Agreement has been reached between a number of left groups to contest the next general election in Ireland. The election must take place before June 1212 but the current government is unlikely to last longer than six months and could even fall attempting to pass an austerity budget next month.

Initial discussions between the Socialist Party, People Before Profit (the SWP and a few independents), the Tipperary Workers and Unemployed Action Group and the Sligo Independent Socialist Organisation have reached agreement on a minimum programme for the election. It is expected that the ULA will run over 20 candidates in the election.

Socialist Party statement here -

http://socialistparty.net/elections/537-united-left-alliance-to-challenge-at-general-election

[Die Neue Zeit]

I was actually hoping the Socialist Party would get more leverage from its representation in the EU parliament. :(

[Jolly Red Giant]

I was actually hoping the Socialist Party would get more leverage from its representation in the EU parliament. :(
Don't quite understand what you are getting at? Can you expand a little please.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Isn't the Socialist Party the biggest left orgaization in Ireland? Hasn't it surpassed the official CP? I mean, there is a reason why the SP and not the CP is the Irish affiliate of the GUE-NGL.

The SP should by all means engage in electoral cooperation with the other left groups (i.e., not standing where another left candidate is running), but it should stand candidates under its own banner where it is agreed that the SP should run in exclusively. Unless I'm missing the point and there's a proportional representation issue here? :confused:

[Jolly Red Giant]

Isn't the Socialist Party the biggest left orgaization in Ireland? Hasn't it surpassed the official CP? I mean, there is a reason why the SP and not the CP is the Irish affiliate of the GUE-NGL.

The SP should by all means engage in electoral cooperation with the other left groups (i.e., not standing where another left candidate is running), but it should stand candidates under its own banner where it is agreed that the SP should run in exclusively. Unless I'm missing the point and there's a proportional representation issue here? :confused:
The Socialist Party has been bigger than the CP for well over 30 years. The CP in Ireland is and always has been very small.

All the constituent groups in the ULA will stand under their own banner with their own policies and work with the agreed minimum platform. The ULA is primarily designed to facilitate co-operation for the election after which time the situation will be reviewed. There will be a series of public meetings to guage the interest and response from working class people and joint leaflets, press statements etc will be produced.

There are no constituencies at this point that I am aware of where there will be more than one candidate affiliated to the ULA. There are two possible constituencies where it might happen (one where the SP would be dominant and one where the SWP would be dominant) - but even then both candidates would run under their own banners and call for transfers for the other candidate.

As a general rule one left organisation is dominant in specific areas - e.g. the Socialist Party in West and North Dublin - the SWP in parts of Central and South Dublin - the SP in Cork and Limerick - and then independent lefts in Tipperary, Sligo and Wexford.

At the moment the list of candidates is as follows
Cork North-Central Mick Barry (SP)
Dublin Mid-West Gino Kenny (People Before Profit - SWP)
Dublin North Clare Daly (SP)
Dublin South Central Joan Collins (PBP - Ind)
Dublin Sounth-West Mick Murphy (SP)
Dublin West Joe Higgins MEP (SP)
Dun Laoghaire Richard Boyd Barrett (PBP - SWP)
Limerick City Cian Prenderville (SP)
Tipperary South Seamus Healy (Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
Sligo North Leitrim Declan Bree (Ind)
Wexford Seamus O'Brien (PBP - Ind)

If the Workers Party decide to join the ULA then they will likely run candidates in
Louth
Waterford
and possibly one or two other areas

If the Irish Socialist Network get involved they could run a candidate in
Dublin North-West

Another Independent left could run as a candidate in
Dublin Central

The Socialist Party are considering running candidates in
Dublin North-East
Dublin Mid-West

The SWP could run candidates in
Dublin South-East

And other independent lefts associated with PBP could run in
Dublin South-West
Wicklow

The candidate with the best chance of being elected is Joe Higgins - and in order of possibility (my assessment) -
Joe Higgins
Seamus Healy
Joan Collins
Clare Daly
Richard Boyd Barrett
Mick Barry
Declan Bree

On a really, really good day for the left all seven could win - a realistic outcome would be three (and it could be any of the top five).

Even three members of parliament working together would have a massive impact on the electoral political landscape in Ireland and a knock-on effect in all other areas of work.

[howblackisyourflag]

Best of luck to them, it would be interesting to see if a 7 TD working group could be formed and if it would make any difference.

[Manic Impressive]

I was under the impression that the Irish socialist party has taken some very questionable stances.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I was under the impression that the Irish socialist party has taken some very questionable stances.
I am sure there are some people on here that do - doesn't particularly bother the SP that much.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The Socialist Party has been bigger than the CP for well over 30 years. The CP in Ireland is and always has been very small.

All the constituent groups in the ULA will stand under their own banner with their own policies and work with the agreed minimum platform. The ULA is primarily designed to facilitate co-operation for the election after which time the situation will be reviewed. There will be a series of public meetings to guage the interest and response from working class people and joint leaflets, press statements etc will be produced.

There are no constituencies at this point that I am aware of where there will be more than one candidate affiliated to the ULA. There are two possible constituencies where it might happen (one where the SP would be dominant and one where the SWP would be dominant) - but even then both candidates would run under their own banners and call for transfers for the other candidate.

As a general rule one left organisation is dominant in specific areas - e.g. the Socialist Party in West and North Dublin - the SWP in parts of Central and South Dublin - the SP in Cork and Limerick - and then independent lefts in Tipperary, Sligo and Wexford.

At the moment the list of candidates is as follows
Cork North-Central Mick Barry (SP)
Dublin Mid-West Gino Kenny (People Before Profit - SWP)
Dublin North Clare Daly (SP)
Dublin South Central Joan Collins (PBP - Ind)
Dublin Sounth-West Mick Murphy (SP)
Dublin West Joe Higgins MEP (SP)
Dun Laoghaire Richard Boyd Barrett (PBP - SWP)
Limerick City Cian Prenderville (SP)
Tipperary South Seamus Healy (Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
Sligo North Leitrim Declan Bree (Ind)
Wexford Seamus O'Brien (PBP - Ind)

If the Workers Party decide to join the ULA then they will likely run candidates in
Louth
Waterford
and possibly one or two other areas

If the Irish Socialist Network get involved they could run a candidate in
Dublin North-West

Another Independent left could run as a candidate in
Dublin Central

The Socialist Party are considering running candidates in
Dublin North-East
Dublin Mid-West

The SWP could run candidates in
Dublin South-East

And other independent lefts associated with PBP could run in
Dublin South-West
Wicklow

The candidate with the best chance of being elected is Joe Higgins - and in order of possibility (my assessment) -
Joe Higgins
Seamus Healy
Joan Collins
Clare Daly
Richard Boyd Barrett
Mick Barry
Declan Bree

On a really, really good day for the left all seven could win - a realistic outcome would be three (and it could be any of the top five).

Even three members of parliament working together would have a massive impact on the electoral political landscape in Ireland and a knock-on effect in all other areas of work.

An alliance with so many gas and water socialists would be disastrous for the WP and its revolutionary politics.

[Jolly Red Giant]

An alliance with so many gas and water socialists would be disastrous for the WP and its revolutionary politics.

Yes indeed - the Workers Party has been really tearing it up on the Irish revolutionary left over the past 20 years.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Hey wait a minute! Didn't Eoghan Harris call for a Workers Party in Ireland?

[The Grey Blur]

there was/is a worker's party dnz, that's what i was trying to convey to you in that thread. it evolved from the old sinn féin that after the split with the provos went in a much more marxist direction. it attracted some mass support in the republic during the 80s but it was run in a stalinist fashion (including keeping the official ira around in a secret capacity), chief among those demogogic culprits being eoghan harris himself. he and a few others propelled by their egoes split from the worker's party and launched their own reformist group 'democratic left' which eventually faded away with their primary leader eamonn gilmore now head of the irish labour party. harris is is an extreme hypocrite megalomaniac and anti-public sector worker contrarian. the worker's party itself is moribund.

i'm amazed a WP poster has turned up here, possibly the first time i've encountered one online. and amazing to hear that the first criticism was of the SP and others as 'gas-and-water' socialists. they're both as guilty of that in the north...at least the SP never called for people to tout during the troubles.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I wish I had more background on the specifics going on - I'll have to look up some more analysis from left-papers in the UK and Ireland - but from the US, Ireland has been presented as the anti-Greece Piig. There had previously been articles in big US papers saying that Ireland shows how neo-liberalism is the way out of the crisis for these countries (why don't these guys ever get fired, weather forecasters and compulsive gamblers make better predictions than financial newspaper editors). But in short, the US press keeps pointing to how "good" the Irish population is even though they rejected an EU vote and everything I read about life there now is that unemployment and heroin and migration out are all way up.

What are the social and political forces there like - is there much of a hard-left or is it mostly Democratic-Socialists with some fringe leftist groups? I've read about the US military protests, but I don't know much else about contemporary left-politics there. What is unionization like - does Coca-Cola get tax breaks (they could probably write a check to cover the bill:lol:)?

[Die Neue Zeit]

chief among those demogogic culprits being eoghan harris himself. he and a few others propelled by their egoes split from the worker's party and launched their own reformist group 'democratic left' which eventually faded away with their primary leader eamonn gilmore now head of the irish labour party. harris is is an extreme hypocrite megalomaniac and anti-public sector worker contrarian. the worker's party itself is moribund.

Apologies for not appreciating this when you commented that time.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Yes indeed - the Workers Party has been really tearing it up on the Irish revolutionary left over the past 20 years.

We dont need an electoral alliance in Ireland TDs have been proven to be useless when it comes to real change in the Irish political landscape what we need is an alliance of the Republican Left we dont need watery Trots in the Dail we need revolutionary activists on the streets.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Hey wait a minute! Didn't Eoghan Harris call for a Workers Party in Ireland?

Is this the same Eoghan Harris who supported the Iraq war and is a establishment lackey? The mans a joke.

[Fat Cat Killer]

there was/is a worker's party dnz, that's what i was trying to convey to you in that thread. it evolved from the old sinn féin that after the split with the provos went in a much more marxist direction. it attracted some mass support in the republic during the 80s but it was run in a stalinist fashion (including keeping the official ira around in a secret capacity), chief among those demogogic culprits being eoghan harris himself. he and a few others propelled by their egoes split from the worker's party and launched their own reformist group 'democratic left' which eventually faded away with their primary leader eamonn gilmore now head of the irish labour party. harris is is an extreme hypocrite megalomaniac and anti-public sector worker contrarian. the worker's party itself is moribund.

i'm amazed a WP poster has turned up here, possibly the first time i've encountered one online. and amazing to hear that the first criticism was of the SP and others as 'gas-and-water' socialists. they're both as guilty of that in the north...at least the SP never called for people to tout during the troubles.
The Workers Party have never paid lip service to Working Class unity we believe it to be a corner stone in ending sectarian division in Ireland the "touting" you talk about has been greatly exaggerated by our political enemies but hey if you support Celtic top wearing gunmen then thats your prerogative.

[The Grey Blur]

Apologies for not appreciating this when you commented that time.
it's quite alright, at least that explains why you posted that article in good faith. the various ins and outs of far-left irish politics are a strange world - a man leads a revolutionary stalinist "worker's party" (which included incredible feats like totally controlling the 'commentary' element of the nationalised media), abandons it, becomes a contrarian hack publishing articles in the worst bourgeois paper in ireland, then 20 years later ends up calling for another "worker's party" (without public sector workers, of course)!

[The Grey Blur]

The Workers Party have never paid lip service to Working Class unity we believe it to be a corner stone in ending sectarian division in Ireland the "touting" you talk about has been greatly exaggerated by our political enemies but hey if you support Celtic top wearing gunmen then thats your prerogative.
lol! you really are an incredible fossil, are you posting from the 1980s? i'll get you up to speed: the sticks have zero credibility left in the north, the berlin wall has fallen and the trots were right all along!! :scared:

[Fat Cat Killer]

lol! you really are an incredible fossil, are you posting from the 1980s? i'll get you up to speed: the sticks have zero credibility left in the north, the berlin wall has fallen and the trots were right all along!! :scared:

Resorting to petty slurs. Well done, seems you have won this debate.

The point I am making is the ULA is more of the same. How can a bunch of political opportunistic trots change anything.
How closer dose Dail seats bring us towards the establishment of the mass movement?
Its a dead duck from the start and something the Republican Left need to avoid like the plague.

[The Grey Blur]

I wish I had more background on the specifics going on - I'll have to look up some more analysis from left-papers in the UK and Ireland - but from the US, Ireland has been presented as the anti-Greece Piig. There had previously been articles in big US papers saying that Ireland shows how neo-liberalism is the way out of the crisis for these countries (why don't these guys ever get fired, weather forecasters and compulsive gamblers make better predictions than financial newspaper editors). But in short, the US press keeps pointing to how "good" the Irish population is even though they rejected an EU vote and everything I read about life there now is that unemployment and heroin and migration out are all way up.

What are the social and political forces there like - is there much of a hard-left or is it mostly Democratic-Socialists with some fringe leftist groups? I've read about the US military protests, but I don't know much else about contemporary left-politics there. What is unionization like - does Coca-Cola get tax breaks (they could probably write a check to cover the bill:lol:)?

there's some good left-wing blogs like cedar lounge revolution that give a good general overview of the left situation as well as general politics in ireland. it focusses mainly on the free state but has plenty of analysis of the north also.

your analysis is pretty accurate - the irish method was promoted by the bourgeois in the states and britain as the "way out of the crisis" - that is by slashing public services and bailing out all the bankers' debt. the problem being as every good keynesian knows this has just escalated the crisis- resulting in the social ills you mention. the market-worshippers are bewildered that ireland's bonds and credit ratings just continue to fall and there's now talks with the EU to secure a possible bailout. in this climate there's a polarisation with the labour party in ireland getting its strongest votes in a long long time and on the other hand the bourgeois are already calling that the main attack on public sector workers, the no-strikes-but-no-immediate-pay-cuts "croke park deal", should be renegotiated in the bosses' favour. recently students marched in dublin against an increase in university fees, it erupted into serious police violence after the occupation of the finance department...so it's this context that this electoral alliance is taking place.

[Manic Impressive]

I am sure there are some people on here that do - doesn't particularly bother the SP that much.

I was talking about this


Sorry but the Socialist Party has taken Loyalist sectarian murderers on lecture tours and has had a very aggressive attitude to the anti-Imperialist struggle, indeed to the right of the International Communist Current. It has also condemned the prevention of an Orange fascist march down O'Connell by working class youths. They also say nice things about Che but that doesnt stop them attacking "Stalinism".

If you're asking why the SP should care what I think maybe because I'm an Irish citizen.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I was talking about this

If you believe the mindless rantings of that particular individual then so be it. The SP is still not concerned about it.

[Red Monroy]

Anne Mc Shane wrote an article (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004164) on the Irish crisis and the United Left Alternative:


Budget crisis deepens

Double standards need to be challenged, writes Anne Mc Shane

http://cpgb.org.uk/images/1004164.jpg

The US-based financial news channel, Bloomberg TV, this week announced that Ireland is going bankrupt. Rumours abound about how much money is left in the till - with Bloomberg arguing that there are only 60 days-worth left, although the Irish National Treasury Agency maintains that it will not be until the middle of next year before the funds run out.

The nervousness of the markets was reflected in a new rise in the cost of Irish borrowing - to 8.14%. This is despite the attempts of the government to reassure international investors that it is doing all in its power to rein in spending. The plan is to go back to the bond markets next year once the draconian budget is pushed through on December 7. Another €6 billion in cuts is due, leading to a further massive reduction in public services and a programme of mass redundancies in the health service. But government policy cannot be said to have been a great success so far - if interest rates continue to climb, the cost of further borrowing could become prohibitive.

Meanwhile the EU economic and monetary affairs commissioner, Ollie Rehn, is in Ireland to support the coming budget and the austerity measures. He has made it plain that the future is very bleak and that even more ‘difficult’ decisions need to be taken. It is obvious that the plan is to suck as much money out of state provision as possible to keep the economy afloat. The impact on the working class is enormous and the fear is intense. A Red C poll this week showed that 49% of people interviewed felt unwell with stress and many had been unable to visit their doctors because of lack of money. The same poll reflected a loathing of the government, with just 11% supporting Brian Cowen to continue as taoiseach. Enda Kenny of Fine Gael, the main opposition party, fared little better, with 23%. Eamonn Gilmore of the Labour Party continues to increase his support, with 39%.[1] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004164#1) And with a by-election this month almost certain to reduce the government’s majority to just two TDs, the Fianna Fáil/Green coalition is looking extremely unstable.

Opposition has started to gather momentum once more. More than 25,000 students marched in Dublin last week in a demonstration which was angry and militant - and came under attack from the Gardaí. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has announced a national demonstration on November 27. Other protests and marches are being planned to coincide with the budget. It seems that we are in for a very volatile period. The government is warning that if the budget does not go through we risk losing our national sovereignty and even worse cuts will ensue. But it is obvious that the EU is already overseeing the attacks. Stoking up such fears might work in the short term, but the mood can also very quickly translate into collective rage. The working class is desperate. We urgently need an organisation to provide leadership.

In such circumstances it is, of course, vital that the left gets its act together. The announcement by the Socialist Workers Party-backed People Before Profit Alliance (PBPA) of a left coalition to contest the forthcoming general election has created cautious hope. But at the moment it is difficult to know how serious an initiative it is.

The PBPA issued a press release on October 27 welcoming the formation of the United Left Alliance (ULA) on October 24. It is reportedly made up of the Socialist Party in Ireland, the Tipperary Workers and Unemployed Group, councillors in Sligo under Declan Bree, and the PBPA itself (the SWP is not officially involved under its own name). In fact the PBPA seems at the present time to be the only body actually mentioning it. No reference can be found on either the SWP or Socialist Party websites at the time of writing this report. The latest copy of Socialist Worker does not even advertise the public launch meeting due to held on November 26. All very strange.

According to the press release, the plan is to stand candidates throughout the country in the next general election. While officially this may not take place until 2012, it looks certain that a snap election will be called well before then. We are told that the programme has already been agreed between the participants. Eighteen candidates are also approved, with more under discussion. The lack of transparency evident in the setting up of this alliance is already being debated on various blogs. An open debate on programme and perspectives is vital for the left and workers’ movement - not the announcement of a fait accompli.

According to the PBPA, however, the alliance will be open to “anyone who accepts its basic programme and aims”. The press release goes on to express the hope that electoral success “will lay the basis over time for a move to a more formal structure - in reality, a new party for working people, union, community, feminist and environmental activists, students and anyone who wants to affect real change”.[2] (http://cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004164#2)

Perhaps the main organisations of the left are waking up to the need for a single working class force. But the secrecy up to now does not augur well for the kind of democracy necessary for any new organisation to truly represent working class aspirations. The whole process needs to be opened up to allow for the democratic selection of candidates and input into the platform they stand on.

The ULA is obviously an attempt to create yet another halfway house populist organisation. The Socialist Party and SWP will once more keep their ‘revolutionary Marxism’ to themselves, while the alliance - if its existence is eventually recognised by the participants - will offer the electorate ‘sensible’ reformism.

Ironically the formation of the alliance took place immediately after the October 22-23 conference entitled ‘Marxist Perspectives for Irish Society’, which brought together representatives of the SP and the SWP, as well as a number of other political activists and academics. It illustrated the potential for regroupment on a revolutionary basis.

The double standards need to be challenged. Hopefully the initiative will create a dynamic of its own despite the control-freakery and secrecy of its founders.

Notes


www.irishtimes.com (http://www.irishtimes.com/)
www.peoplebeforeprofit.ie (http://www.peoplebeforeprofit.ie/)

[Manic Impressive]

If you believe the mindless rantings of that particular individual then so be it. The SP is still not concerned about it.

Gotta say that is an awful answer. Is there any truth to the allegations? if so how do you refute it? By repeating that the SP is not concerned it sounds like they don't care what potential voters who should support them think which kind of seems like they don't give a fuck about the voters. Or is it the case that you don't have an answer?

[The Grey Blur]

1) the SP does criticise stalin and stalinism. most sane individuals in the 21st century have few problems with this.

2) the old militant and socialist party steadily degenerated in the north to the point where their leader peter hadden accused the irsp of being drug dealers, they supported the good friday agreement, they do not oppose orange order marches and yes, they flirted with ex-uvf members such as hutchinson and others that seemed to be going in a 'progressive' direction. (the debate over the degree to which 'labour unionism' constitutes a phenomenom hospitable to socialist ideas is a live debate on the irish left. i personally think its outright rejection shows a lack of understanding of the contradictions of false consciousness that a marxist should display, but also that obviously unionism no matter how progressive or 'socialist' is at heart based on a loyalty to a reactionary and imperialist order). the rest of their positions all have their own justification in SP terms. i floated about the SP for a while and while i reject a lot of their analysis of the north and their fear of being labelled 'republican' (which is in fact what i think they are) i can appreciate the serious work they do in the south and i don't think a bunch of hysterical complaints on an internet forum (coming from a user whose own politics are seriously suspect) constitute a basis to reject this 'united left' electoral alliance.

while my biggest pet peeve are those who wail and gnash their teeth in leftist navel-gazing (we're never united enough, we're never realistic enough, we're never working class enough) at times it does have to be said that some socialists have to adopt a sense of perspective. does the SP's mis-analysis of the north mean you should reject an electoral alliance of the left in ireland that by your voting for and being involved could promote socialism on the ground in working class areas, practically and in propaganda form?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Gotta say that is an awful answer. Is there any truth to the allegations? if so how do you refute it? By repeating that the SP is not concerned it sounds like they don't care what potential voters who should support them think which kind of seems like they don't give a fuck about the voters. Or is it the case that you don't have an answer?

These sectarian swipes have been answered time and time again ad nauseum. Do a search on this forum - you will find several threads dealing with the accusations.

At the end of the day they are irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

[Manic Impressive]

does the SP's mis-analysis of the north mean you should reject an electoral alliance of the left in ireland that by your voting for and being involved could promote socialism on the ground in working class areas, practically and in propaganda form?

Thanks for answering the question and in answer to yours I think it's always a tricky situation with socialist parties entering the electoral process but I am in favour of giving it a go as long as no compromises are made on important issues. Even if it's a complete failure it raises the parties profile and hopefully gains a few members. Lucky your time around the SP didn't effect your ability to answer questions.


These sectarian swipes have been answered time and time again ad nauseum. Do a search on this forum - you will find several threads dealing with the accusations.

At the end of the day they are irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
Excuse me for not having read every thread on Revleft it's not as though this is one of your once a week threads in the learning section like "Was Stalin Evil?!?!111". All I was doing was asking for an alternative perspective to what I had already read and you couldn't be arsed to spend 5 mins answering my question but instead chose to give a shitty response, nice one

[Fat Cat Killer]

1) the SP does criticise stalin and stalinism. most sane individuals in the 21st century have few problems with this.

2) the old militant and socialist party steadily degenerated in the north to the point where their leader peter hadden accused the irsp of being drug dealers, they supported the good friday agreement, they do not oppose orange order marches and yes, they flirted with ex-uvf members such as hutchinson and others that seemed to be going in a 'progressive' direction. the debate over the degree to which 'labour unionism' constitutes a phenomenom hospitable to socialist ideas is a live debate on the irish left. i think its outright rejection shows a lack of understanding of the contradictions of false consciousness that a marxist shoud display, but also that obviously unionism no matter how progressive or 'socialist' is at heart based on a loyalty to a reactionary and imperialist order. the rest of their positions all her have their own justification in SP terms. i floated about the SP for a while and while i reject a lot of their analysis of the north and their fear of being labelled 'republican' (which is in fact what i think they are) i can appreciate the serious work they do in the south and i don't think a bunch of hysterical complaints on an internet forum (coming from a user whose own politics are seriously suspect) constitute a basis to reject this 'united left' electoral alliance.

while my biggest pet peeve are those who wail and gnash their teeth in leftist navel-gazing (we're never united enough, we're never realistic enough, we're never working class enough) at times it does have to be said that some socialists have to adopt a sense of perspective. does the SP's mis-analysis of the north mean you should reject an electoral alliance of the left in ireland that by your voting for and being involved could promote socialism on the ground in working class areas, practically and in propaganda form?

Your sadly deluded if you think that an electoral pact between some rag tag bunch of Trots is going to achieve anything.
Electoralism has proven itself to be a failed tactic for the revolutionary left. The SP shouldn't be given the time of day never mind cooperating with them.
We need radicals on the streets in direct confrontation with the establishment we need to sow the seeds of the mass movement by pushing the rallys against the cuts into open confrontation with the state we need civil unrest its the only thing the Capitalists fear.
Its depressing when people put things like the ULA up on a pedestal as the start of something new and positive its not, its something the WP has tried before and once TDs are elected (id be surprised if they got 3) egos and petty party poltics set in.
What we need is an alliance of the Republican Left as they are the only ones who posses the politics and the resources to agitate civil unrest and defend the workers.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Excuse me for not having read every thread on Revleft it's not as though this is one of your once a week threads in the learning section like "Was Stalin Evil?!?!111". All I was doing was asking for an alternative perspective to what I had already read and you couldn't be arsed to spend 5 mins answering my question but instead chose to give a shitty response, nice one
Yet you expect me to spend more time answering distored points about the SP/CWI that I have ansered on numerous occasions before - run a search.

[Crux]

I hope that particular poster is in no way, shape or form representative for WP in general.

[Manic Impressive]

Yet you expect me to spend more time answering distored points about the SP/CWI that I have ansered on numerous occasions before - run a search.

Yet you continue to respond surely by now you've wasted more time than you would have by answering the original points and we could have avoided all this unnecessary waste of both our time.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yet you continue to respond surely by now you've wasted more time than you would have by answering the original points and we could have avoided all this unnecessary waste of both our time.
have a look at the pre-existing threads and you will see how much time it takes up.


I hope that particular poster is in no way, shape or form representative for WP in general.
Particularly given the WP's history of supporting a Fianna Fail government.

[Q]

The PBPA issued a press release on October 27 welcoming the formation of the United Left Alliance (ULA) on October 24. It is reportedly made up of the Socialist Party in Ireland, the Tipperary Workers and Unemployed Group, councillors in Sligo under Declan Bree, and the PBPA itself (the SWP is not officially involved under its own name). In fact the PBPA seems at the present time to be the only body actually mentioning it. No reference can be found on either the SWP or Socialist Party websites at the time of writing this report. The latest copy of Socialist Worker does not even advertise the public launch meeting due to held on November 26. All very strange.

According to the press release, the plan is to stand candidates throughout the country in the next general election. While officially this may not take place until 2012, it looks certain that a snap election will be called well before then. We are told that the programme has already been agreed between the participants. Eighteen candidates are also approved, with more under discussion. The lack of transparency evident in the setting up of this alliance is already being debated on various blogs. An open debate on programme and perspectives is vital for the left and workers’ movement - not the announcement of a fait accompli.

According to the PBPA, however, the alliance will be open to “anyone who accepts its basic programme and aims”. The press release goes on to express the hope that electoral success “will lay the basis over time for a move to a more formal structure - in reality, a new party for working people, union, community, feminist and environmental activists, students and anyone who wants to affect real change”.[2]

Perhaps the main organisations of the left are waking up to the need for a single working class force. But the secrecy up to now does not augur well for the kind of democracy necessary for any new organisation to truly represent working class aspirations. The whole process needs to be opened up to allow for the democratic selection of candidates and input into the platform they stand on.

The ULA is obviously an attempt to create yet another halfway house populist organisation. The Socialist Party and SWP will once more keep their ‘revolutionary Marxism’ to themselves, while the alliance - if its existence is eventually recognised by the participants - will offer the electorate ‘sensible’ reformism.

Ironically the formation of the alliance took place immediately after the October 22-23 conference entitled ‘Marxist Perspectives for Irish Society’, which brought together representatives of the SP and the SWP, as well as a number of other political activists and academics. It illustrated the potential for regroupment on a revolutionary basis.

The double standards need to be challenged. Hopefully the initiative will create a dynamic of its own despite the control-freakery and secrecy of its founders.

Emphasis added.

Jolly Red Giant: Could you perhaps confirm or deny on this issue? I believe that if we're going to work together, we should do so openly so all workers (that is after all our target audience) can participate in these discussions on programme, strategy and tactics, so we can politicise the wider movement and establish our ideas. It also helps to make clear in what ways we have disagreements with other groups, such as the SWP.

Also, what is the programme this initiative stands on? The article speaks of a "halfway house" and that the ULA list will "once more keep their ‘revolutionary Marxism’ to themselves, while the alliance - if its existence is eventually recognised by the participants - will offer the electorate ‘sensible’ reformism". Are such comments having any solid basis? Does the ULA argue clearly for a revolutionary alternative? Especially in Ireland, one of the PIIGS, I believe this could find a real echo.

[Crux]

Particularly given the WP's history of supporting a Fianna Fail government.
Oh snap.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Emphasis added.
The first thing to note is the article you posted was written by Anne McShane and comes from the Weekly Worker (the long acknowledged tabloid version of the far left)

On to the substance of your questions

Jolly Red Giant: Could you perhaps confirm or deny on this issue?
The SP/CWI have been attempting for several years to reach agreement with others on the far-left to put together an electoral alliance. It nearly came off for the 2009 local elections except for the SWP refusing to an agreed slate of candidates.

Realistically on the left in Ireland, if any electoral alliance is to be created it would involve the four groups named in the press statement. These four groups would comprise well over 90% of the membership of the far left, all the elected representatives (with the exception of a couple of WP councillors) and pretty much all the political influence the far-left has in the country. There would be little point in launching any left alliance without these four groups first reaching some sort of agreement.

There was disagreement up to quite recently as the SWP were also negotiating with celebrity candidates to run for People Before Profit. When this didn't materialise they actively engaged with the discussions. The four groups have reached agreement and any other individuals or groups (socialist groups) who agree with the programme can participate (there would certainly be difficulty if any left-republican groups wanted to participate - none of the four main components would support such a move).


I believe that if we're going to work together, we should do so openly so all workers (that is after all our target audience) can participate in these discussions on programme, strategy and tactics, so we can politicise the wider movement and establish our ideas.
This is, at this point, a simple electoral alliance - it has a very basic programme. It is not explicitly 'socialist' as the SWP have this idea that 'socialism' is not attractive to voters - they prefer to use populist slogans. The SP could have walked away over this, but what would be the point. The basic programme of the ULA does not restrict the SP from putting its own political position to the voters where the SP is standing.

As for tactics and strategy - that's pretty simple. Run candidates where possible and maximise the votes.


It also helps to make clear in what ways we have disagreements with other groups, such as the SWP.
Each component part of the ULA will run their own campaign in the constituencies where they stand. For example, SP members in Sligo will work for Declan Bree, but Bree's organisation in Sligo will produce all the material for the campaign. Where the SP are running candidates, the SP programme will be put to the electorate.


Also, what is the programme this initiative stands on?
Very basic - I don't have the exact details - but something like 'No Cuts' and 'Make the Rich pay'


The article speaks of a "halfway house" and that the ULA list will "once more keep their ‘revolutionary Marxism’ to themselves, while the alliance - if its existence is eventually recognised by the participants - will offer the electorate ‘sensible’ reformism". Are such comments having any solid basis?
This is not meant to be a re-groupment of the revolutionary left - it is a simple, straightforward electoral alliance for a parliamentary election. It is similar to the TUSC campaign in Britain - but far less advanced (it has no trade union influence - there are no left trade union leaders in Ireland). The SWP will use their PBP front and will not mention socialism. The SP will run the campaign in the same way it has run election campaigns for the past 20 years.


Does the ULA argue clearly for a revolutionary alternative?
No - and as outlined above - that was not or is not the intention.


Especially in Ireland, one of the PIIGS, I believe this could find a real echo.
It is very hard to know if the ULA will make any impact at all. The far left made some small advances in 2009 with Joe Higgins winning the MEP seat and PBP winning five council seats. Since then the emphasis of public opinion in Ireland has shifted to getting the government out and getting an alternative government in. Hence the significant swing to the Labour Party. It could not be ruled out that the ULA could get badly squeezed between the main establishment parties and not win any seats (not the most likely scenario - but a possibility).

The plan is to have a launch meeting in Dublin in two weeks. This will guage the level of support and, more importantly, if the idea is attracting anything other than the old lefts that would normally turn up to these meetings. If it is a success there may be individual constituency meetings. But there will be some areas where this would be pretty much a waste of time. In Limerick for example, more than 70 people packed into the SP's election launch meeting for the Limerick city constituency a week ago. The SP is the only far left group organised in the city. There would be little point in holding another ULA meeting in the city - it wouldn't attract anything like the same attendance and could well just confuse people. That is not to say that the SP candidate will not identify with the ULA, simply that the ULA would be the SP and pretty much nothing else.

As I said - this is simply an election alliance. It is not designed to be anything else and is in place simply to gauge the mood. It is unlikely to bring any extra votes to any candidates and definitely will not increase the chances of any candidate being election. However, if the ULA succeeds in getting more than one candidate elected (from different groups) then it does raise the question of what to do next. If it was feasible to continue to run with the ULA then it opens a completely new situation. In that case then it would be important to sit down and work on a programme, strategy and tactics - which would be done through open debate and discussion (if the SWP were willing to go that route). This would definitely be a left reformist group (not a re-groupment of the revolutionary left). But that is some distance away yet.

[Fat Cat Killer]

JRG I disagree with all this work being wasted on the ULA we need activists on the streets facing down the establishment not knocking doors in a futile exercise to scrounge pie in the sky votes.
The budget is giving us a platform to confront the state head on in the streets this is where the war against capitalism will be won your wasting your time standing.
In relation to your snide swipe at Republican Socialists not being wanted I can assure you that no self respecting member of the Workers Party eirigi or the IRSP would give the ULA the time of day.
And Cllr Declan Bree is a left republican so you've just contradicted yourself.

[The Grey Blur]

while the WP is about as republican as the man on the moon i too find the deliberate exclusion of left-republicans a bit hysterical. it's also hypocritical as at least half of the pbp activists in the north could be classed as 'left republican'.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The first thing to note is the article you posted was written by Anne McShane and comes from the Weekly Worker (the long acknowledged tabloid version of the far left)

It was posted by someone else earlier. Q merely quoted that post.

[Manic Impressive]

have a look at the pre-existing threads and you will see how much time it takes up.

No you show me what you mean all I asked for was a straight answer yet you continue to be a prick. I'm honestly sorry if I've inadvertently trolled you in one way or another by raising something that you simply do not want to answer but it was not my intention. The simple fact was I wanted an alternate opinion from what I had heard from palengenisis, I wasn't trying to start an argument I wasn't going to contest your version of the policy of the SP. I just wanted a fucking answer. However as you were incapable I got one from the Grey Blur. I can't believe you still responded you are a giant fucking turnip (I believe turnip is not a reactionary term) I would have prefered to use something else but y'know forum rules 'nd that

[Jolly Red Giant]

Founding statement by ULA -

http://www.joehiggins.eu/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ULA-Statement.pdf

[Jolly Red Giant]

JRG I disagree with all this work being wasted on the ULA we need activists on the streets facing down the establishment not knocking doors in a futile exercise to scrounge pie in the sky votes.
The budget is giving us a platform to confront the state head on in the streets this is where the war against capitalism will be won your wasting your time standing.
Are you suggesting that we should simply ignore the election and give Fine Gael and Labour a free run?


In relation to your snide swipe at Republican Socialists not being wanted I can assure you that no self respecting member of the Workers Party eirigi or the IRSP would give the ULA the time of day.
My understanding is that the WP may join - as for Eirigi and the IRSP - those already part of the ULA would have a serious problem taking them onboard (so the issue is moot)


And Cllr Declan Bree is a left republican so you've just contradicted yourself.
Left republican of sorts - not an active supporter of the 'armed struggle' - the guy spent 17 years as a LP representative.


It was posted by someone else earlier. Q merely quoted that post.
I was aware of that


I can't believe you still responded you are a giant fucking turnip (I believe turnip is not a reactionary term) I would have prefered to use something else but y'know forum rules 'nd that
Touchy touchy -


I just wanted a fucking answer.
Okay - Palengenisis is talking bullsh*t

[Palingenisis]

while the WP is about as republican as the man on the moon i too find the deliberate exclusion of left-republicans a bit hysterical. it's also hypocritical as at least half of the pbp activists in the north could be classed as 'left republican'.

Not true necessarily....While the Eoghan Harris faction was always good at shouting the loudest there was always a Republican-Socialist faction in the sticks and since the rats left the ship to form Democratic Left the sticks have been moving more and more back to a Republican position. It should also be remembered that a lot of their hysterics back in the day were a reaction to the murderous activities of Billy Mc Kree the commander of the Provos in Belfast, who was a sectarian psychopath if ever there was one, who tried to "cleanse" Belfast of sticks in the mid 70s.

[Palingenisis]

If you're asking why the SP should care what I think maybe because I'm an Irish citizen.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/progressive-unionist-party-t114963/index.html?t=114963

You can check out the facts here. Anyone concerned about partition and dealing with sectarianism in the occupied six counties in an honest, meaningful and effective way should steer clear of the SP.

[BOZG]

Emphasis added.

Jolly Red Giant: Could you perhaps confirm or deny on this issue? I believe that if we're going to work together, we should do so openly so all workers (that is after all our target audience) can participate in these discussions on programme, strategy and tactics, so we can politicise the wider movement and establish our ideas. It also helps to make clear in what ways we have disagreements with other groups, such as the SWP.

Also, what is the programme this initiative stands on? The article speaks of a "halfway house" and that the ULA list will "once more keep their ‘revolutionary Marxism’ to themselves, while the alliance - if its existence is eventually recognised by the participants - will offer the electorate ‘sensible’ reformism". Are such comments having any solid basis? Does the ULA argue clearly for a revolutionary alternative? Especially in Ireland, one of the PIIGS, I believe this could find a real echo.

JRG has responded to most of your points but there are some points where Anne MacShane makes this out to be some sort of conspiracy that should be clarified.

A provisional basic programme was agreed by the representatives of the organisations involved with some minor amendments to be clarified. The basic programme was to be brought back to the concerned organistions, endorsed by their members and then a formal announcement made. Unfortunately, one of the organisations involved used a mailing list which is far more widely subscribed to than just their actual membership which meant that the provisional agreement became public far earlier than expected which is why only one group had mentioned this alliance on their website at the time of Anne's article.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Don't be shy Palingenisis -

Post the rest of them - here's another one -
http://www.revleft.com/vb/dawn-purvis-quits-t136423/index.html?highlight=Billy+Hutchinson

By the way Manic - it doesn't take that long to run a search - you might try it some time rather than behaving like someone stole your rattle.

[Manic Impressive]

By the way Manic - it doesn't take that long to run a search - you might try it some time rather than behaving like someone stole your rattle.
The Manic is not concerned..........

[Jolly Red Giant]

The Manic is not concerned..........
Neither are members of the SP/CWI

[Palingenisis]

The Manic is not concerned..........

They have such a lovely attitude dont they?

Anyway I wonder from the point of view of genuine effectiveness in a country like the 26 counties of Ireland where a majiority of working people dont vote (particularly the young) and even those who do are very sceptical of what it can achieve what is the point of indulging in electoralism? I mean if people already dont have many illusions in the parlimentary system that Lenin's reasoning for Communists to take part in elections doesnt hold. Its much more important to be building up a movement outside and against the Dail (the parliment in Dublin).

[Manic Impressive]

inorite again he's said that his party is not concerned about what potential voters think.

[Palingenisis]

My understanding is that the WP may join - as for Eirigi and the IRSP - those already part of the ULA would have a serious problem taking them onboard (so the issue is moot)


Actually the Workers Party for all their faults have a pretty good understanding of what Trotskyitism actually is so I doubt they would want anything to do with you.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Actually the Workers Party for all their faults have a pretty good understanding of what Trotskyitism actually is so I doubt they would want anything to do with you.
pretty much irrelevent anyway - despite some decent people in the Stickies - they are an irrelevence to politics in Ireland these days.

Back to the topic of the thread - I would be interested to hear people's views of the founding statement from the ULA.

[Soldier of life]

pretty much irrelevent anyway - despite some decent people in the Stickies - they are an irrelevence to politics in Ireland these days.

Back to the topic of the thread - I would be interested to hear people's views of the founding statement from the ULA.

Considering the parts that make up the whole of the ULA, I don't think you or any member of a socialist organisation in Ireland are in a position to mock the sticks' relevance.

But there are a couple of issues I wish to bring up:

Firstly the issue of the Irish Republican Socialist Party and éirigi being excluded. There is no ideological basis for it. I know Cllr. Bree very well, he is a republican socialist. I believe Healy claims to be of similar stock. Regardless of which methodology they espouse, it is clear that a rejection of republican socialism is not a prerequisite to entry into the ULA.

The other possible reason for the exclusion of other groups is stigma. But considering JRG says that the sticks may well be joining this group shortly, such an argument would hold no wait. Consider the sticks support for FF he mentions, the feuding with the irps and provos, and indeed the fact that the WP still have a fully-equipped armed wing, so I think any rejection of the IRSP on a basis of stigma or past armed action would be hypocritical.

I feel however, though these points needed to be made, that we need to concentrate on the positives of this. The left in Ireland, though it is hardly unique to Irish political discourse, has been far too sectarian in recent times. It is important to realise that there is more we have in common than that which divides us. The most similar of groups (See SP and SWP) often save their fiercest criticism for each other, and I hope the ULA will act as a mechanism through which a level of solidarity among the left far beyond electoral alliances is achieved. Regardless of the IRSP being left out of this for now, I view this group positively and as a progressive step.

It is good to see, although it should be par for the course, the manifesto signed by the relevant parties and individuals a pledge to stay out of any coalition to the right, no matter how expedient it may be for them to enter such an arrangement. I know there is a valid argument against a reformist alliance and that revolutionary sentiment should solely be propagated during a crisis like this. But realistically, the left must get it's foot in the door and capitalise on this crisis, and there are some decent proposals in the document presented. I was informed a little while back the document needed amending at the wishes of those involved, so I'm unsure if that is the finished product or not.

With regard to prospects for candidates, if 4 members of the ULA got elected it would be an excellent showing I feel. Realistically, 2 seats would be a decent performance. That's a sad indication of where the left is right now, but rather than complain we must build and hopefully the ULA is just a foundation which can be built upon. We won't be short of opportunities, for all intents and purposes we are looking at a FG/Labour coalition which will be an unmitigated disaster and FG will not be afraid to put the boot in with regard to cuts in public spending in areas like public services, welfare etc

All in all, this has to be welcomed.

[pastradamus]

Its gotta be Boyd-Barrett, Higgins, Daly and Mick Barry in with a real shout of a TD seat.

Boyd-Barrett only got eliminated by transferred votes last time
Higgins, "miraculously" lost his seat after the government decided to draw up his constituancy lines (by almost half).
Clare Daly - very very nearly got in last time. She's a 50/50 IMO
Mick Barry - Got the highest percentage of first preference votes anywhere in Ireland during the recent council elections - getting elected on the first count with 26.45%

http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=4498

[Soldier of life]

Its gotta be Boyd-Barrett, Higgins, Daly and Mick Barry in with a real shout of a TD seat.

Boyd-Barrett only got eliminated by transferred votes last time
Higgins, "miraculously" lost his seat after the government decided to draw up his constituancy lines (by almost half).
Clare Daly - very very nearly got in last time. She's a 50/50 IMO
Mick Barry - Got the highest percentage of first preference votes anywhere in Ireland during the recent council elections - getting elected on the first count with 26.45%

http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=4498

I think you're a bit overly ambitious comrade.

I think Joe is the only safe seat, as there are other issues with the other candidates.

Isn't Boyd-Barrett's area losing one seat? And aren't Daly's constituency boundaries being redrawn and some of her power base being now excluded?
And as for Barry, superb election result in the locals, but will he get much outside his own stronghold and will he be transfer friendly enough. Plus, the shinner may well come in in front of him? All issues that make the elections very tough to call.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Firstly the issue of the Irish Republican Socialist Party and éirigi being excluded. There is no ideological basis for it.
The basis for it is quite simple - none of the four major component parts of the ULA will participate in an alliance with groups who do not reject individual terror as a method of struggle. The so-called left republican nature of Bree and Healy is tenuous - Bree was a member of the LP for 17 years. Yes he may have republican leanings - but so did Dick Spring. Healy's association with left republicanism is even more tenuous - going back to the LWR which disappeared well over 20 years ago.


JRG says that the sticks may well be joining this group shortly, such an argument would hold no wait. Consider the sticks support for FF he mentions, the feuding with the irps and provos, and indeed the fact that the WP still have a fully-equipped armed wing, so I think any rejection of the IRSP on a basis of stigma or past armed action would be hypocritical.
The stickies, for all their faults, have rejected individual terror as a method of struggle.



I view this group positively and as a progressive step.
I would agree that it is positive. I am pleasantly surprised with the programme outlined in the statement as I suspected it would be more watery than it is.



With regard to prospects for candidates, if 4 members of the ULA got elected it would be an excellent showing I feel. Realistically, 2 seats would be a decent performance.
I would agree.



I think Joe is the only safe seat,
Joe Higgins should win



Isn't Boyd-Barrett's area losing one seat?
Yes it is and the LP should win two of the four. For RBB to win a seat FF would have to lose both of theirs (2 government ministers at that).


And aren't Daly's constituency boundaries being redrawn and some of her power base being now excluded?
Correct - Swords has been cut in half (a political decision in my view). However the SP has made significant inroads in other parts of the constituency which were previously weak. For example, the SP now has a town councillor in Balbriggan. The constituency now has two FF, one FG and one GP representative. FG and the LP will win one each but after that everything is up for grabs. The LP think they can win two - but I suspect Clare Daly will take a seat before the second LP candidate.



And as for Barry, superb election result in the locals, but will he get much outside his own stronghold and will he be transfer friendly enough. Plus, the shinner may well come in in front of him?
This is correct - Mick Barry would have to be ahead of both SF and the second LP candidate to win.

Seamus Healy has a better chance. FF are going to get hammered in South Tipperary over cutbacks in Clonmel hospital.


All issues that make the elections very tough to call.
More difficult than any previous election for the left with the possible exception of 1927 when Larkin won.

[Soldier of life]

'Individual terror' really is a terrible phrase to describe what the IRA and INLA did. However, I have absolutely no interest in debating that topic in an abstract way in this thread as it will greatly distract from it. But I will say this, the IRSP's analysis at this juncture is that we must concentrate on building a working class movement to challenge partition and to challenge capitalism and that the conditions which brought about the formation of a conspiratorial army like the INLA have changed considerably. In effect, the IRSP's analysis is not based on an underground armed wing being the focal point of struggle. That is not to say the IRSP rejected that idea previously at all, after all wasn't it Mickey Devine who called for mass mobilisation and a general strike during the hunger strike, rather than a step-up in the INLA campaign, but I do believe the IRSP should have placed more of an emphasis on it and got caught up in trying to compete with the provisional (nationalist) movement.

I'm digressing a bit here but the fact of the matter is the sticks and IRSP have a not dissimilar past so stigma is not the issue. And the IRSP firmly rejects a strategy where the focal point is not the working class, but the gun. The IRSP has called on the armed republican groups of today several times to reconsider their actions as their elitist actions are doomed to failure like the PIRA and INLA failed. So having said that and in acknowledging that is the position of the IRSP(The INLA even decommissioned to show the seriousness of their intent to adhere to that analysis), isn't it ridiculous that the sticks would be brought in and not the IRSP while the sticks are still armed to the teeth and indeed retain a conspiratorial army?

And I just want to add, because I believe we should try and keep this positive and not lose another opportunity at some sort of leftist solidarity/unity, that regardless of the IRSP being excluded at this point I am happy to see this step. And you are right, there are some good proposals in that document which could have been quite diluted. Knowing the SP and SWP/Pb4P I won't hold my breath but I would hope something concrete can be put together off the back of this alliance. I will be out canvassing when the election is called and these are important times for the left as I have a feeling FG are going to end up just as hated as FF once they assume power.

[Palingenisis]

The serious question though is given their behaviour during the "Troubles", the aftermath of the Poll Tax riot in London and the Falklands/Malvinas war why the IRSP or for that matter the sticks would want to work with the SP/CWI?

Do you realize that SP supported the Ardoyne being put under martial law so that it could trolled by Loyalist bands with images of sectarian killers on their drums, etc?

[Soldier of life]

The serious question though is given their behaviour during the "Troubles", the aftermath of the Poll Tax riot in London and the Falklands/Malvinas war why the IRSP or for that matter the sticks would want to work with the SP/CWI?

Do you realize that SP supported the Ardoyne being put under martial law so that it could trolled by Loyalist bands with images of sectarian killers on their drums, etc?

Comrade, of course I have ideological differences with the Socialist Party. The list of issues I have with them may be as long as my arm. You mention the marches there and I raised the issue of the IRSP and éirigi protesting against the RIR (different issue I know but just an example) being branded as 'sectarian' by the Socialist Party in their paper with activists of theirs whom I know. They fully accepted my point and that it was incorrect to brand republican socialists as such for protesting against a British Army Regiment's triumphalist march. Myself and JRG could probably write essays to each other for a month about the ideological and practical issues we have with each other's groups. The fact is though, we do have more in common than that which divides us and at times the left is it's own worst enemy. I frankly have found the behaviour of the the SP and SWP over the last number of years towards each other as petty, childish, and against the interests of working class people.

AFAIK the IRSP has not been in contact with this new group. But any moves that forwards the interests of working class people in this country has to be welcomed, and if the ULA adds a degree of credence to our politics in the eyes of working people that was previously lacking then that has to be welcomed. I personally would like to see, after this election, the ULA solidify itself and to develop further. It is not in the interests of working class people in Ireland for the IRSP to start attacking the politics of the SP, SWP or vice versa. The last day or so has spelled out clearly the 26 counties is in dire straits and at this time we are best off arguing about the finer points of marxism on another occasion, and channeling all our energies into the upcoming election, building further and challenging the system that has led us into this mess. I would like to see the IRSP, éirigi, ISN, WP, WSM and SD all be involved in future talks. It's about time squabbles were put aside in the interests of people because the left is currently badly letting down people when they need them the most.

[Palingenisis]

I notice that Irps all reaching out the hand and the SP are quite into slandering the Irps...;)

Lenin was quite "sectarian" and could have been accused of "splitting" the Left.

The main problem that the Irish left has suffered from is idealogical confusion. What we need is a Leninist vanguard party and not another attempt at false unity.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Do you realize that SP supported the Ardoyne being put under martial law so that it could trolled by Loyalist bands with images of sectarian killers on their drums, etc?
The Stalinist school of falsification is alive and well - throw enough mud and hope some will stick.


I would like to see the IRSP, éirigi, ISN, WP, WSM and SD all be involved in future talks.
I would welcome the participation of the ISN, the WP and the SD in the Alliance. As anarchists I wouldn't expect that the WSM would want to be involved in an electoral alliance. I would, and I expect the four component parts that formed the ULA would, have a problem with the IRSP and Eirigi - specifically for their support for 'individual terror' as a tactic (and whether you like it or not - that is what it is). This is not to denigrate either group - if the SP/CWI thought that individual terror would work then the SP/CWI would support it - but it doesn't.

This doesn't mean that members of the SP would not work in campaigns with members of the IRSP or Eirigi - members of the SP have done that for decades (in the case of the IRSP) - but the SP would not enter a formal electoral alliance with any left group that does not reject the counter-productive strategy of individual terror.

Again - and I will repeat this - the ULA is not meant to be a formation for re-groupment of the revolutionary left. It is a left reformist electoral alliance that may or may not have an impact and may or may not have a future after the general election.

[Fat Cat Killer]

JRG, the WP will not be taking part in the ULA I can assure you that it is a waste of time and resources.
The collapse of Capitalism here will allow us to confront he state head on and that is what we intend to do.
Solider of Life,What the Official Irish Republican Army has done with its war material is quite frankly none of your business, if the Irps want to surrender to the capitalists thats their prerogative.

[The Grey Blur]

i've no idea why you speak as if either éirígí or the irps support 'individual terror'.

[Fat Cat Killer]

i've no idea why you speak as if either éirígí or the irps support 'individual terror'.

Ive nothing against the IRSP or any other Republican Socialist but people should not be using the OIRA as a slur on the WP.
The OIRA haven't decommissioned as they believe that when the mass movement is formed it will need to be defended they retain their arms for that time.

[Jolly Red Giant]

i've no idea why you speak as if either éirígí or the irps support 'individual terror'.
Both Eirigi and the IRSP support the 'armed struggle' as a (mistaken) tactic. The fact that the IRSP, for example, state that the time is not right at the moment for 'armed struggle' does not mitigate the fact that they would return to it if they felt the time was right.



The OIRA haven't decommissioned as they believe that when the mass movement is formed it will need to be defended they retain their arms for that time.
Did I miss this new type of WP - as it certainly bears no resemblence to the WP that has existed in Ireland for the past 40 years.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Audio of a debate held on Tuesday in Blanchardstown in West Dublin between Joe Higgins Socialist Part / CWI MEP and Leo Varadker TD - main opposition Enterprise, Trade and Employment spokesperson.

Topic - What is the solution to the crisis?

http://www.joehiggins.eu/2010/11/audio-joe-higgins-mep-vs-leo-varadkar-td-what-is-the-solution-to-the-crisis/

[The Grey Blur]

Both Eirigi and the IRSP support the 'armed struggle' as a (mistaken) tactic. The fact that the IRSP, for example, state that the time is not right at the moment for 'armed struggle' does not mitigate the fact that they would return to it if they felt the time was right
and yet it has been pointed out that plenty of those involved with the current alliance also supported the 'armed struggle', not to mention the possible inclusion of the sticks. so that's obviously false. secondly, eirigi are an unarmed group and the INLA have decommissioned. thirdly as you say neither believes the armed struggle is useful at this time. and finally, most of the nationalist community in the north also supported the armed struggle, i look forward to the SP excluding all those from their political activity. oh wait you already do. carry on.

[Jolly Red Giant]

and yet it has been pointed out that plenty of those involved with the current alliance also supported the 'armed struggle',
Like who?


not to mention the possible inclusion of the sticks.
The Stickies rejected 'armed struggle' many moons ago.


secondly, eirigi are an unarmed group and the INLA have decommissioned.
But both have and continue to support it as a tactic.


thirdly as you say neither believes the armed struggle is useful at this time.
My emphasis - individual terror is completely counter-productive to the movement of the working class.


and finally, most of the nationalist community in the north also supported the armed struggle,
What evidence do you have for this assertion?


i look forward to the SP excluding all those from their political activity.
The Socialist Party weren't solely responsible for excluding anyone - all the four component parts of the ULA - SP/CWI, PBP/SWP, TWUAG and SISO all adopted this position - none of them want to be involved in an electoral alliance with Eirigi or the IRSP.

[Palingenisis]

The Stickies rejected 'armed struggle' many moons ago.
.

No they didnt....They called a ceasefire because they believed that the situation was heading to an out and out sectarian blood bath however in the two years following that they managed to kill more Brits than they had done previously in "retaliation" actions. Also in places such as South Armagh the sticks would often carry out attacks on the Brits and let the Provos claim it. They unlike the IRSM have not decomissioned....That should tell you something.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Both Eirigi and the IRSP support the 'armed struggle' as a (mistaken) tactic. The fact that the IRSP, for example, state that the time is not right at the moment for 'armed struggle' does not mitigate the fact that they would return to it if they felt the time was right.


Did I miss this new type of WP - as it certainly bears no resemblence to the WP that has existed in Ireland for the past 40 years.

You have been talking to the wrong people.

[Crux]

You have been talking to the wrong people.
Or the maybe right people.

Best of luck to the ULA.

[Jolly Red Giant]

You have been talking to the wrong people.
I suspect that I actually know more memebrs of the WP than you do.

[Fat Cat Killer]

No they didnt....They called a ceasefire because they believed that the situation was heading to an out and out sectarian blood bath however in the two years following that they managed to kill more Brits than they had done previously in "retaliation" actions. Also in places such as South Armagh the sticks would often carry out attacks on the Brits and let the Provos claim it. They unlike the IRSM have not decomissioned....That should tell you something.

I believe the rational behind not decommissioning is that the revolution in Ireland will not be a peaceful one and that Garda and Capitalists might have to be killed.
The SP SWP etc are all a bunch of whiners, plastic revolutionariness they look down their noses from their perceived ideological ivory tower on Left Republicans.
Heres some news for you JRG the feelings mutual.
Members of the SP SWP etc are living in fantasy land if they think a few TDs are going to change anything in one of the most corrupt capitalist parliaments in the world.
The only way to change the Dail is to burn it down with all the scumbags inside.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I suspect that I actually know more memebrs of the WP than you do.

I very much doubt that.

[Crux]

I believe the rational behind not decommissioning is that the revolution in Ireland will not be a peaceful one and that Garda and Capitalists might have to be killed.
The SP SWP etc are all a bunch of whiners, plastic revolutionariness they look down their noses from their perceived ideological ivory tower on Left Republicans.
Heres some news for you JRG the feelings mutual.
Members of the SP SWP etc are living in fantasy land if they think a few TDs are going to change anything in on of the most corrupt capitalist parliaments in the world.
The only way to change the Dail is to burn it down with all the scumbags inside.
:laugh: There really is nothing else to say to that.

[Fat Cat Killer]

:laugh: There really is nothing else to say to that.

From you yes I agree now go away and get yourself a set.

[Crux]

From you yes I agree now go away and get yourself a set.
Well, then let me explain it to you, although I suppose there's no guaranteed you'd understand, yeah you believe you might have to "kill the Capitalists and the Garda".
Yes, revolution anywhere might certainly turn violent, but I highly doubt it will be the OIRA that will rise from the shadows as the armed defenders of the working class, or whatever glorious adventurism you had in mind.
That's not how revolution works. Real revolutionary self-defence was never and is never based on small secretive groups with guns but must be based in the communities and workplaces and under democratic control.
And somehow I doubt that's the OIRA's reasoning, besides I was under the impression they decomissioned? Oh well. I am not interested in a guessing game here, but in actual revolutionary strategy. Which brings me to my second point.

It's not about "a few TD's" changing society, but the struggle on the ground among the youth and, you know, the working class. And it's not like the Wp's are abstentionists is it? We take the platforms we are elected to and use them as auxiliary to the extra-parliamentary struggle.

[Soldier of life]

I notice that Irps all reaching out the hand and the SP are quite into slandering the Irps...;)

Lenin was quite "sectarian" and could have been accused of "splitting" the Left.

The main problem that the Irish left has suffered from is idealogical confusion. What we need is a Leninist vanguard party and not another attempt at false unity.

'False unity'.

I disagree to some extent. The IRSP will never abate it's revolutionary socialist politics one iota. However, the left at the moment is seen as a bit of a joke in the eyes of working class people in Ireland. If an alliance of some sort saw socialists working more in conjunction, less petty sniping among the left and a more coherent socialist message of opposition in play then I think that could serve to add much needed credence to leftist politics. It is very easy to be pure in your politics while sitting by oneself in a dark room and calling yourself a revolutionary. What we need is to make tangible gains over the coming months and we need to be pragmatic about that. And the IRSP has always been open to talks. An anti-imperialist and socialst broad front has always been a policy of the IRSP. Snide retorts from irps usually arise when the left simply echo the capitalist press in an attempt to dismiss their political line.


And JRG. As I said in a previous post, the IRSP's position is that the working class must be the focal point of the struggle. The IRSP seem to have acknowledged that the INLA's campaign was deeply flawd tactically in that it merely echoed the tactics of the PIRA. Any armed action should have been to simply supplement the building of a mass movement to challenge imperialism and native capitalism.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Media launch today -

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1125/united_left_alliance.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1125/breaking37.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/higgins-leads-new-left-group-in-election-bid-2418543.html

ULA website
http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/

[ComradeOm]

However, the left at the moment is seen as a bit of a joke in the eyes of working class people in IrelandOh if only they could see this thread...

[Jolly Red Giant]

Updated list of agreed candidates -

Cllr Mick Barry (http://www.mickbarry.ie/) (Cork North Central),
Cllr Richard Boyd-Barrett (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Elect-Cllr-Richard-Boyd-Barrett-to-Dail-Eireann/134710536582045) (Dun Laoghaire),
Cllr Joan Collins (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000746982480) (Dublin South Central),
Joe Higgins MEP (http://www.joehiggins.eu/) (Dublin West),
Cllr Clare Daly (http://www.claredaly.ie/) (Dublin North),
Cllr Seamus Healy (South Tipperary and West Waterford),
Cllr Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West),
Seamus O’Brien (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120019668054475&v=wall)(Wexford),
Mick Murphy (Dublin South West),
Cian Prendiville (http://www.facebook.com/cian.sp) (Limerick),
John Lyons (Dublin North Central)
Annette Mooney (Dublin South East).

[Spawn of Stalin]

Media launch today -

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1125/united_left_alliance.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1125/breaking37.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/higgins-leads-new-left-group-in-election-bid-2418543.html

ULA website
http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/
The programme sucks, there's no other way to put it, it flat out sucks, that's doubly true when you consider that this coalition is made of mostly of people who dare call themselves Leninists and revolutionaries. I realise that it is an election programme and that there needs to be a degree of reformism in there, but for fuck's sake you just sound like social dems of the worst kind. No hint of revolutionary politics in there whatsoever, and reading that nobody is going to know that you want to abolish capitalism and reunite Ireland, mind you that's probably for the best, the latter has never been on the SP's true agenda.

[Soldier of life]

Just want to mention, the ULA was launched tonight in Dublin. Members of the IRSP were in attendance and a question posed about whether the WP, éirigi and IRSP would be welcome in the ULA was answered with a Yes basically.

So I guess the parameters set by JRG viz those darn individual terrorists doesn't apply in the real world.

[Crux]

Just want to mention, the ULA was launched tonight in Dublin. Members of the IRSP were in attendance and a question posed about whether the WP, éirigi and IRSP would be welcome in the ULA was answered with a Yes basically.

So I guess the parameters set by JRG viz those darn individual terrorists doesn't apply in the real world.
Judging by Fat Cat here you'd think the WP wouldn't want to join. In any case éirigi isn't an armed group, and the WP and IRSPs armed wings have decomissioned. But I suppose we'll see.

oh and wonderwoman666 what are the SP's "true intentions", do tell? Or really, don't, that's tin-foil hat material right there.
But I would be curious what upset you about the program. The SP will be standing on it's full program regardless, of course, the ULA program is not there to limit the participants but serve as a point of unity.

[Aurora]

wonderwoman666 my understanding is that its necessary for all who wish to be involved with the ULA to agree to that very basic program, they can then add their own party program on top of it, as Majakovskij said its to act as a point of unity not to limit the parties involved.

Just want to mention, the ULA was launched tonight in Dublin. Members of the IRSP were in attendance and a question posed about whether the WP, éirigi and IRSP would be welcome in the ULA was answered with a Yes basically.

That's interesting do you know if there is a recording of it at all?
To be honest i wouldn't have thought the IRSP or éirigi would be interested, i don't recall either of them having run in previous elections, were the IRSP asking because they were interested or because they wanted to expose the sectarian nature of the ULA? :p

[Spawn of Stalin]

oh and wonderwoman666 what are the SP's "true intentions", do tell? Or really, don't, that's tin-foil hat material right there.
Maybe you shoud ask jolly red giant s/he is the one denouncing the only people who ever did anything to further the cause of a 32 county republic as terrorists. Was Connolly a terrorist then? This is my problem with the Irish SP, they rarely even pay lip service to the republican struggle. Where was the SP during the troubles? Oh yes, I remember, they were trying to turn the imperialist British Labour Party into a Trot vanguard, nice priorities.

[Spawn of Stalin]

wonderwoman666 my understanding is that its necessary for all who wish to be involved with the ULA to agree to that very basic program, they can then add their own party program on top of it, as Majakovskij said its to act as a point of unity not to limit the parties involved.

It's funny you mentioned unity, what about Irish unity? My issues with the program aside, the fact that this thing was set up by two groups who never did a damn thing to fight British imperialism in Ireland doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm. Give me the IRSP or the WP over Trot electoral coalition #736 anyday. I wouldn't have such a huge problem with a reformist program if it at least mentioned the Irish national question, just once, but as it stands this is not the case, the creation of a unified Irish republic with progressive economic policies should be THE point of unity for any coalition worth supporting, at the minute you just have a progressive economic policy.

[Crux]

Maybe you shoud ask jolly red giant s/he is the one denouncing the only people who ever did anything to further the cause of a 32 county republic as terrorists. Was Connolly a terrorist then? This is my problem with the Irish SP, they rarely even pay lip service to the republican struggle. Where was the SP during the troubles? Oh yes, I remember, they were trying to turn the imperialist British Labour Party into a Trot vanguard, nice priorities.
Yes, clearly the radical thing would have been to pay lip-service to the Provos. :rolleyes:
So the Irish comrades were in Brittain? Please, you've exposed enough of your utter confusion already.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Just want to mention, the ULA was launched tonight in Dublin. Members of the IRSP were in attendance and a question posed about whether the WP, éirigi and IRSP would be welcome in the ULA was answered with a Yes basically.

So I guess the parameters set by JRG viz those darn individual terrorists doesn't apply in the real world.
The 'yes basically' applies - The WP, IRSP and Eirigi are more than welcome by accepting the basic programme of the ULA and by acknowledging that the 'armed struggle' was a mistaken tactic and giving a committment not to re-engage the tactic of individual terror.


Maybe you shoud ask jolly red giant s/he is the one denouncing the only people who ever did anything to further the cause of a 32 county republic as terrorists. Was Connolly a terrorist then?
I am really fed up of dealing with this nonsense - not once - never - nada - diddly squat - zero times - did Connolly engage in any individual act of bombing shooting or assassination. Connolly engaged in an armed uprising in the middle of a city with every resource at his disposal for the (mistaken) task of attempting to prompt the working class into revolutionary action. To attempt to use Connolly to justify the actions of republican paramilitaries is like attempting to claim that the narodniks were the true inheritors of Maxism in pre-revolutionary Russia



This is my problem with the Irish SP, they rarely even pay lip service to the republican struggle.
Correction - the SP/CWI is openly opposed to the 'republican struggle' - it didn't work and it can't work and will never work.



Where was the SP during the troubles?
Defending working class people from paramilitary threats and supporting working class people subjected to paramilitary attacks (from both sides) and assisting workers and communities against job losses, wage cuts and extra taxation. What did the CPGB-ML ever do (apart from cheerlead republican paramilitaries from the sidelines)?

[Soldier of life]

LOL JRG 'Individual Terror' has nothing got to do with it. I spoke to members of the SWP about the situation and they mentioned nothing like that. Also, the ULA programme is a point of unity and does not require organisations to alter the finer points of their own ideologies. There is nothing in the programme about armed struggle and as it was said that all these groups had to do was agree to the programme, then your point about 'individual terrorism' is a figment of your own imagination. Why was it not mentioned when the questioned was posed?

[Aurora]

It's funny you mentioned unity, what about Irish unity?
What about it? i was talking about the alliance program not the national question.

the creation of a unified Irish republic with progressive economic policies should be THE point of unity for any coalition
I imagine the reason the national question wasn't mentioned is because far from being unifying its a divisive issue among the left in Ireland, with every group supporting different tactics and strategies. By not putting it in the program it allows groups with different positions to put forward there own program on top of it while working together to provide a left alternative.

[Spawn of Stalin]

What did the CPGB-ML ever do (apart from cheerlead republican paramilitaries from the sidelines)?
We are not an Irish party, we don't not have, and will never have an Irish branch. It is not reallly our job to do anything other than cheerlead paramilitaries from the sidelines.

Correction - the SP/CWI is openly opposed to the 'republican struggle'
And this is the reason for my criticisms, end of story.

[Jolly Red Giant]

LOL JRG 'Individual Terror' has nothing got to do with it. I spoke to members of the SWP about the situation and they mentioned nothing like that. Also, the ULA programme is a point of unity and does not require organisations to alter the finer points of their own ideologies. There is nothing in the programme about armed struggle and as it was said that all these groups had to do was agree to the programme, then your point about 'individual terrorism' is a figment of your own imagination. Why was it not mentioned when the questioned was posed?
1. The SWP do not speak for the Socialist Party / CWI
2. 'individual terrorism' was / is not a 'finer' point of ideology - it is fundemental to the entire outlook of the IRSM (i.e. it is not practical at the moment).
3. If the IRSP want to be part of the ULA then let them approach the ULA and see what happens.

[Crux]

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/report-on-united-left-alliance-launch-november-29th-november/

[Palingenisis]

I imagine the reason the national question wasn't mentioned is because far from being unifying its a divisive issue among the left in Ireland, with every group supporting different tactics and strategies. By not putting it in the program it allows groups with different positions to put forward there own program on top of it while working together to provide a left alternative.


Why wasnt the Special Criminal Court mentioned? Why nothing about state repression against Republicans (most of whom are progressive at least if not socialist)?

[Palingenisis]

There is not really much point in electoralism in Ireland either north or south now of days accept maybe as a show of strength...But given the ULA's yellow programme this isnt even a show of strength.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Why wasnt the Special Criminal Court mentioned? Why nothing about state repression against Republicans (most of whom are progressive at least if not socialist)?
Jesus - do we have to have the same bloody nonsense here as we have on the other forum - at least make a bit more effort than just copying and pasting.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Jesus - do we have to have the same bloody nonsense here as we have on the other forum - at least make a bit more effort than just copying and pasting.

"Bloody nonsense", your the only person who comes on here spouting that.

Will the ULA be asking WP Cllr Ted Tynan to step aside to give their candidate a clear run in the GE?

If so we might see some of those weapons that haven't been decommissioned back on the streets.;)

[Palingenisis]

Jesus - do we have to have the same bloody nonsense here as we have on the other forum - at least make a bit more effort than just copying and pasting.

The Socialist Party dont give a fuck that you can be jailed for years on the hunch of a Pig...What does that say about you all?

[Soldier of life]

1. The SWP do not speak for the Socialist Party / CWI
2. 'individual terrorism' was / is not a 'finer' point of ideology - it is fundemental to the entire outlook of the IRSM (i.e. it is not practical at the moment).
3. If the IRSP want to be part of the ULA then let them approach the ULA and see what happens.

1. At the launch of the ULA when asked about IRSP,WP and eirigi joining, there was no mention of 'individual terrorism'. That is your fiction alone. What was said was any of them are welcome if they agree to the programme, which is a very general one and obviously has nothing to do with arms. Pardon me for taking the word of the ULA and not a poster online.

[Crux]

Jesus - do we have to have the same bloody nonsense here as we have on the other forum - at least make a bit more effort than just copying and pasting.
Just do what I do and put Palingenisis on ignore. Nothing she writes is anything but diversions and trolling.

Fat Cat Killer: Immature little internet tough guy, eh? Who would've thought? Oh an sure we might include the WP, it's just a shame you're in it.

Soldier of Life: You think individual terrorism doesn't matter?

[Aurora]

Why wasnt the Special Criminal Court mentioned? Why nothing about state repression against Republicans (most of whom are progressive at least if not socialist)?
I don't see why it should be mentioned, as i said before this is just a basic program and its not a party program. If a group wants to mention the Special Criminal Court in its election program i don't see why they can't.

If so we might see some of those weapons that haven't been decommissioned back on the streets.
fap fap fap
I honestly hope the WP doesn't approve of your threatening socialists with their weapons.

The Socialist Party dont give a fuck that you can be jailed for years on the hunch of a Pig...What does that say about you all?
Stop flinging mud, you obviously don't have any idea what the purpose of this Alliance is, if the SP(or any other group) was to put forward its own program as the basis of this alliance there would be no alliance and the left in this country would be just as fragmented as ever with less chance of getting a national platform in the Dail.

I for one am very happy to see the formation of the ULA, i believe there have been attempts in the past to form such an alliance between the SP and SWP and i don't think its any coincidence that its finally come together now when workers rights are being systematically destroyed and public money is being given to the capitalist's for the 'national interest'.
I don't know what the future is for the alliance but hopefully it gets us one step closer to the formation of a new workers party

[Connolly]

The ULA it appears has been rigged to suit the needs of the SP and SWP. There is no 'look in' for any other organisations when the candidates have already been chosen by the initial founders.

Why would the WP, IRSP, eirigi, ISN etc want to join when all they would be doing is putting up posters for SWP and SP candidates?

There was a chance to create an all encompassing and democratic left alliance consisting of the inputs, abilities and resources of all the left wing organisations. And instead - the creation of a new machine to suit the power interests of the usual faces.

Why were all organisations not invited from the outset? - because the SP and SWP wanted to dominate and control the bloody thing.

[Crux]

The ULA it appears has been rigged to suit the needs of the SP and SWP. There is no 'look in' for any other organisations when the candidates have already been chosen by the initial founders.

Why would the WP, IRSP, eirigi, ISN etc want to join when all they would be doing is putting up posters for SWP and SP candidates?

There was a chance to create an all encompassing and democratic left alliance consisting of the inputs, abilities and resources of all the left wing organisations. And instead - the creation of a new machine to suit the power interests of the usual faces.

Why were all organisations not invited from the outset? - because the SP and SWP wanted to dominate and control the bloody thing.
Cool story, bro. The ULA certainly welcomes more groups and more candidates, and are in discussion with more groups currently, so, yeah...
Audio from the United Left Alliance launch meeting: http://qued.tv/?media=6709~~0.3

[Jolly Red Giant]

There is no 'look in' for any other organisations when the candidates have already been chosen by the initial founders.
The ULA is looking to stand up to 20 candidates in the general election - only 13 candidates have been selected. If anyone has any suggestions of possible candidates I am sure the steering committee would be all ears.


Why would the WP, IRSP, eirigi, ISN etc want to join when all they would be doing is putting up posters for SWP and SP candidates?
See above


There was a chance to create an all encompassing and democratic left alliance consisting of the inputs, abilities and resources of all the left wing organisations. And instead - the creation of a new machine to suit the power interests of the usual faces.
The ULA is nothing more and nothing less than an electoral alliance for the upcoming general election. If anything develops afterwards then the structure, processes and policies will be determined democratically by those involved in the new formation.


Why were all organisations not invited from the outset? - because the SP and SWP wanted to dominate and control the bloody thing.
Becuase we would still be talking about forming the alliance 6 months after the election was over.

It is interesting the way some of the stuff is debated here. Knowing the history of the various groups I think WP members would be surprised at being lumped in with the IRSP and Eirigi. Discussions have been taking place with long-standing WP members on other forums that have been far more practical and constructive than the bleeting on here.

I am quietly confident that by the time of the election in Ireland the WP will be part of the ULA and that WP candidates will stand under the banner of the ULA in the election. I believe that the WP have something positive to bring to the table and with their traditional electoral support in Waterford and Louth (certainly more than the SP and the SWP) it would be beneficial for WP candidates to be running under the ULA banner. It would mean that the ULA would be standing in practically every major urban centre in the country.

[Connolly]

The ULA is looking to stand up to 20 candidates in the general election - only 13 candidates have been selected. If anyone has any suggestions of possible candidates I am sure the steering committee would be all ears.


Oh is that all, just 13 of the up to 20 candidates.

It seems the steering committee turned the wheel in their direction first and then invited others to push.



If anything develops afterwards then the structure, processes and policies will be determined democratically by those involved in the new formation.



Democratic so long as the SP and SWP get first selection on over half the
candidates.




Becuase we would still be talking about forming the alliance 6 months after the election was over.


Why do you think the ula policy document is disagreeable? if it was you wouldnt be in talks with the other groups as you mentioned.

The fact is other groups could and should have been invited to discuss its formation and policy before it was launched and formed.

Now its "join under our policy document and our already selected candidates".

Very inclusive. :rolleyes:

Typical though.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Connolly - for you black is white - your comments don't warrant a reply.

[Soldier of life]

Just do what I do and put Palingenisis on ignore. Nothing she writes is anything but diversions and trolling.

Fat Cat Killer: Immature little internet tough guy, eh? Who would've thought? Oh an sure we might include the WP, it's just a shame you're in it.

Soldier of Life: You think individual terrorism doesn't matter?

First of all I only would use the term when talking to fellow socialists, as what is regarded as terrorism by working class people usually is what they hear on tv, ie., not obeying the principle of distinction. They aren't to up on their marxist theory surprisingly. In that context I don't think it's the appropriate term to use. But among socialists, yes of course it is an important debate, my point is not that it is irrelevant to political debate or 'doesn't matter', my point is that a certain stance on 'individual terrorism' is not a prerequisite for membership of the ULA. It has never come up. As I said I spoke to the SWP about the ULA and it never came up, and although trots on the internet have said it is an issue, when it was brought up at the ULA launch about groups like the IRSP, WP and eirigi joining, all that was said is that they are welcome if they support the programme. There is nothing in the programme about 'individual terrorism', therefore the talk here about it being important in this context is utterly irrelevant.

[Crux]

First of all I only would use the term when talking to fellow socialists, as what is regarded as terrorism by working class people usually is what they hear on tv, ie., not obeying the principle of distinction. They aren't to up on their marxist theory surprisingly. In that context I don't think it's the appropriate term to use. But among socialists, yes of course it is an important debate, my point is not that it is irrelevant to political debate or 'doesn't matter', my point is that a certain stance on 'individual terrorism' is not a prerequisite for membership of the ULA. It has never come up. As I said I spoke to the SWP about the ULA and it never came up, and although trots on the internet have said it is an issue, when it was brought up at the ULA launch about groups like the IRSP, WP and eirigi joining, all that was said is that they are welcome if they support the programme. There is nothing in the programme about 'individual terrorism', therefore the talk here about it being important in this context is utterly irrelevant.
I think the bottom line is "as long as you agree to not bring your guns".
And, of course, we wouldn't want to have to spend the election campaign discussing the INLA and I think you'd agree to that, and that's certainly playing into what JRG is saying. Not that I think it's a likely prospect from what I've heard from eirigi and the IRSM, but it would be a disaster if a component of the ULA went "dissident" on us, so to speak. We can't defend the indefensible.

[Jolly Red Giant]

An opinion poll published tonight in Ireland indicates a combined drop of 8% in support for the pro-austerity parties and a similar rise in support for anti-cuts groups. Fianna Fail have dropped 3% to 13% and face virtual wipeout - but the main opposition Fine Gael (-1%) and Labour (-3%) also dropped in the aftermath of 100,000 taking to the streets of Dublin last Saturday. Sinn Fein have increased support by 5% to 16% and Others (including the United Left Alliance) are up 3%.

I have just posted the following on a politics forum in Ireland and I think it reflects the likely perspectives resulting from this poll.

This poll is confirming the scale of the hammering that FF are going to receive in the general election. FG/LP will form the next government with a comfortable majority.

However, the next general election is going to be fought not on the removal of FF/GP from government - that is a foregone conclusion - the real battle is going to be over support for or opposition to the austerity programme of FF/FG/LP/ECB/IMF. The rise in support for SF and the Inds (in reality the first registering of the impact of the United Left Alliance) is a reflection of the growing oposition among the Irish working class to the cuts agenda of big business and the establishment - an opposition reflected by the 100,000 on the streets of Dublin last Saturday).

FF are on the verge of wipeout - the longer the current government continues the worse the hammering will be. At this point the could end up with as few as 10 seats.

If these numbers are reflected in actual election then SF could win 20+ seats and the United Left Alliance 5-7 seats. The opposition in the next Dail will come from SF and the United Left Alliance. There is another thread discussing the recovery of FF - the reality is that FF could well become a fringe party based around a handful of rural TD's. They will provide no opposition to a government implementing policies that they outlined in a four year plan.

The political landscape in this country is in the process of changing and the change could occur far more rapidly that anyone thinks is possible. Within six months the FG/LP will be even more hated than the current bunch. The Irish economy is faced with a pro-longed period of crisis and stagnation and the austerity programme of the establishment will compound the problem. It will be SF and the United Left Alliance that will increase support as a result.

There is an emerging political realignment in this country and political landscape is going to change dramatically - existing parties will be decimated and new political formations will emerge (both on the left and right). SF will make gains - their progress could be hindered by the baggage of the past and their current role in the North in implementing Tory cutbacks. The United Left Alliance could grow very significantly and very rapidly in the current climate.

This coming election will see the virtual destruction of FF and the emergence of SF and the United Left alliance onto the stage of politics. The following election is where the real battles for the hearts and minds of the Irish working class will take place. At least five United Left Alliance seats are now on the cards -

Joe Higgins - Dublin West
Clare Daly - Dublin North
Joan Collins - Dublin South Central
Richard Boyd-Barrett - Dun Laoghaire
Seamus Healy - Tipperary South

[Palingenisis]

We can't defend the indefensible.

Neither Eirigi or the IRSM are physical force Republicans as such....But if you think that defending the heroic defense of their communities and attacks on British Imperialism of the IRA and INLA is indefensible than you are crazy...

[Crux]

An opinion poll published tonight in Ireland indicates a combined drop of 8% in support for the pro-austerity parties and a similar rise in support for anti-cuts groups. Fianna Fail have dropped 3% to 13% and face virtual wipeout - but the main opposition Fine Gael (-1%) and Labour (-3%) also dropped in the aftermath of 100,000 taking to the streets of Dublin last Saturday. Sinn Fein have increased support by 5% to 16% and Others (including the United Left Alliance) are up 3%.

I have just posted the following on a politics forum in Ireland and I think it reflects the likely perspectives resulting from this poll.

This poll is confirming the scale of the hammering that FF are going to receive in the general election. FG/LP will form the next government with a comfortable majority.

However, the next general election is going to be fought not on the removal of FF/GP from government - that is a foregone conclusion - the real battle is going to be over support for or opposition to the austerity programme of FF/FG/LP/ECB/IMF. The rise in support for SF and the Inds (in reality the first registering of the impact of the United Left Alliance) is a reflection of the growing oposition among the Irish working class to the cuts agenda of big business and the establishment - an opposition reflected by the 100,000 on the streets of Dublin last Saturday).

FF are on the verge of wipeout - the longer the current government continues the worse the hammering will be. At this point the could end up with as few as 10 seats.

If these numbers are reflected in actual election then SF could win 20+ seats and the United Left Alliance 5-7 seats. The opposition in the next Dail will come from SF and the United Left Alliance. There is another thread discussing the recovery of FF - the reality is that FF could well become a fringe party based around a handful of rural TD's. They will provide no opposition to a government implementing policies that they outlined in a four year plan.

The political landscape in this country is in the process of changing and the change could occur far more rapidly that anyone thinks is possible. Within six months the FG/LP will be even more hated than the current bunch. The Irish economy is faced with a pro-longed period of crisis and stagnation and the austerity programme of the establishment will compound the problem. It will be SF and the United Left Alliance that will increase support as a result.

There is an emerging political realignment in this country and political landscape is going to change dramatically - existing parties will be decimated and new political formations will emerge (both on the left and right). SF will make gains - their progress could be hindered by the baggage of the past and their current role in the North in implementing Tory cutbacks. The United Left Alliance could grow very significantly and very rapidly in the current climate.

This coming election will see the virtual destruction of FF and the emergence of SF and the United Left alliance onto the stage of politics. The following election is where the real battles for the hearts and minds of the Irish working class will take place. At least five United Left Alliance seats are now on the cards -

Joe Higgins - Dublin West
Clare Daly - Dublin North
Joan Collins - Dublin South Central
Richard Boyd-Barrett - Dun Laoghaire
Seamus Healy - Tipperary South
Encouraging news, comrade. By the way, what happens to Joe's euro-seat if he gets elected to the Dail?

[redz]

What the Irish working class needs is less "contesting" of elections and more outright mass uprisings against the capitalist system, hopefully leading to a revolutionary overthrow.

Redz

[Crux]

What the Irish working class needs is less "contesting" of elections and more outright mass uprisings against the capitalist system, hopefully leading to a revolutionary overthrow.

Redz
And phrase-radicalism will lead the way!

[Jolly Red Giant]

Encouraging news, comrade. By the way, what happens to Joe's euro-seat if he gets elected to the Dail?

When a EU parliament candidate is nominated they must list 5 substitute candidates to replace them in the event the seat becomes vacant. If Joe is elected in the general election he will resign his MEP seat and be replaced by one of the five.

The substitutes are -
Clare Daly
Ruth Coppinger
Mick Murphy
Denis Keane (former CPSU President)
Paul Murphy (works in Joe's Euro office)

[Jolly Red Giant]

General Election Challange of United Left Alliance Strengthens


The challenge of the United Left Alliance to the right wing consensus in Irish politics is strengthening rapidly. As of today, a total of 17 constituencies will be contested by 18 ULA candidates in the looming General Election.

As well as Tipperary South and West Waterford, eleven constituencies in Dublin, two in Cork, as well as Wexford and Limerick city, candidates have been nominated for Carlow/Kilkenny and Laois/Offaly. This means that almost 50% of Dáil constituencies will have a Left alternative to the establishment political parties.
At a press conference today, Joe Higgins MEP of the Socialist Party said:

“It is entirely possible that this number will be extended in the coming weeks but even at the current number, it is the first time in Irish politics that there was such a wide representation of principled Left candidates presented to the electorate in a General Election.

"The very positive response to the launch of the United Left Alliance throughout the country indicates a real thirst for a radical alternative to the establishment parties and particularly to Fine Gael and Labour, which although now in opposition, are pledged to essentially the same policy as Fianna Fail and the Green Party in implementing the diktats of the IMF/EU Commission on behalf of the bond marketers, speculators and European bankers.

“With the opinion polls currently pointing to the possibility of a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition with a large majority and supported in the Dáil by the discredited remnants of Fianna Fail, a significant bloc of principled Left Dáil deputies is crucial, to mount an effective opposition and offer a fundamental alternative to the attacks on the living standards of ordinary people and public services.”
Cllr Richard Boyd Barrett of the People Before Profit Alliance said:

“The revelations about Brian Cowen’s Golf outing with Sean Fitzpatrick and other figures in Anglo-Irish Bank, graphically underline the urgent need to break-up the golden circle that has brought this country to edge of the economic abyss.
“But if Fianna Fail have finally exposed themselves and now face wipe-out at the coming election, the big question is what an alternative government is going to do. This is what people on the door-steps are asking.

“It is clear that Fine Gael and Labour have no intention of reversing the damage done by Fianna Fail and their golden circle friends. They are long on rhetoric and sound-bites but short on specific commitments to reverse the unjust attacks on ordinary people.

“The United left Alliance is receiving a tremendous response across the country because it is being very clear and specific about what it stands for. We are for reversing unjust cuts on low and middle income families, investing directly in jobs programmes and making the bankers and super-wealthy pay for the crisis they created.

“In the coming weeks we intend to set out clearly our alternative programme and in the process demonstrate the failure of other parties to do the same. If the response we have received so far is anything to go by the ULA is going to make a very serious break-through in this election and begin the process of re-shaping the Irish political landscape in a progressive direction.”
Mass resignation from Laois/Offaly Labour Party - New Left Alternative organisation launched in constituency...

On Tuesday night, twenty members resigned from the Labour Party in Laois/Offaly, formed an independent Left wing organisation and nominated a candidate to stand in the General Election as part of the ULA. This followed the crude imposition of a General Election candidate by the Labour Party leadership at a Selection Convention in December where the democratic rights of ordinary members were trampled on. This was seen by the local members as an attempt to ensure that any candidates elected to the Dáil for the Labour Party would not oppose the intended policy of the leadership to join Fine Gael in government and continue the disastrous bailout policy of the present government.

The new Left group pledged to 'bring a left wing political and economic analysis to issues in Laois/Offaly' and to 'oppose the current right wing political consensus both locally and nationally especially in relation to the IMF/EU deal, the banking crisis, cuts to public services and the levying of further taxes on the lower paid and those on social welfare.'
Polling organisations requested to include United Left Alliance in opinion polls....

The Steering Committee of the United Left Alliance has written to the polling organisations requesting them to include the ULA in any future opinion polls on political support. The letter points out that among ULA candidates are several poll topping Councillors tipped to win Dáil seats and an MEP who won 12% of the vote in Dublin in the Euro Election. It further states: 'We feel that the potential support for our coherent political alliance is being obscured from the public debate by our inclusion in the category 'Others' or 'Independents'.
National Convention of the United Left Alliance...

A national convention of the United Left Alliance will be held in Dublin in mid-February. Further details will be announced but we can say now that it will be an important gathering of activists and will provide an important opportunity to debate and discuss the key political and organisational tasks facing the ULA.
ULA Candidates to date:

Cllr Mick Barry (Cork North Central), SP - ULA

Cllr Richard Boyd-Barrett (Dun Laoghaire), PBP - ULA

Cllr Joan Collins (Dublin South Central), PBP - ULA

Joe Higgins MEP (Dublin West), SP - ULA

Cllr Clare Daly (Dublin North), SP - ULA

Cllr Seamus Healy (South Tipperary and West Waterford), WUAG - ULA

Cllr Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West), PBP - ULA

Seamus O’Brien(Wexford), PBP - ULA

Mick Murphy (Dublin South West), SP - ULA

Cian Prendiville (Limerick City), SP - ULA

John Lyons (Dublin North Central) PBP - ULA

Annette Mooney (Dublin South East), PBP - ULA

Conor MacLiam (Carlow/Kilkenny) SP -ULA

Brian Greene (Dublin North East) SP -ULA

Anne Foley (Cork North West) PBP - ULA

Rob Connolly (Dublin Mid West) SP - ULA

Nicola Curry (Dublin South) PBP - ULA

Liam Dumpleton (Laois/Offaly) ULA

http://www.socialistparty.net/elections/575-general-election-challenge-of-united-left-alliance-strengthens

[Jolly Red Giant]

Video of Joe Higgins MEP Socialist Party / CWI speaking at a Conference on 'New Political Possibilities in Ireland for all Left-Wing Parties in Partnership with Civil Society'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8k7vwGJfjY

[Queercommie Girl]

This is a great development indeed! I wish all my allies in the CWI the best of luck!

[Patchd]

If this slate is elected, what do you think will become of Irish politics in relation to the revolutionary movement?

[Jolly Red Giant]

If this slate is elected, what do you think will become of Irish politics in relation to the revolutionary movement?
I am not quite sure what you are asking - but I will give my opinion and if I don't cover what you want then please let me know.

Some aspects of the class movement in Ireland are ahead of other European countries while others are behind - e.g. struggle within the unions or in terms of anti-cuts campaigns is significantly behind developments in the UK - developments in the parliamentary field are significantly ahead of the UK.

In terms of the current situation in Ireland, the ruling class have embarked on a major offensive against workers and youth. So far the trade union bureaucracies have bent over and accepted everything being dished out by the bosses - job losses, wage cuts, cuts to minimum wage, tax increases etc. At the moment the working class is keeping its powder dry and waiting to use the general election to give an almighty hammering to the government parties. Fianna Fail, which has been the biggest right-wing party for the past 80 years are going to be all-but wiped out in the election - they will probably lose 60%-70% of their seats in the parliament. Similarly their coalition partners the Greens will probably lose all six of their seats.

The next government will in all likelihood be a coalition of Fine Gael and the Labour Party and they will continue the austerity programme of the IMF/ECB. This opens up enormous possibilities for the left in Ireland.

The current election campaign has demonstrated a number of interesting aspects -
1. More than 50% of the electorate will vote FG/LP - but no one has any illusions that they can solve the economic crisis. The ruling class are pushing this coalition to the last in the knowledge that they need some sort of stable political arrangement to carry through their austerity programme. However -

2. Despite a massive propaganda campaign over the past two years opinion polls show that more than 50% of the population oppose the IMF/ECB bailout of the economy and more than 35% have declared their opposition to the planned cuts.

3. The left have been relatively successful in driving the debate in the early stages of the election to the topic of the bailout and the cuts (Sinn Fein have also push this agenda - which I will deal with in more detail later). In the past week the media have been very consciously diverting the debate away from the bailout/cuts to issues like 'political reform'. They have also been publishing bogus opinion polls which show the ULA and Sinn Fein struggling badly in order to undermine the anti-cuts agenda. However the seed of opposition has been sown.

4. In terms of prospects for the ULA - it would be a major surprise if Joe Higgins (Socialist Party / CWI) was not elected in Dublin West - he was a member of parliament from 1997-2007 and narrowly lost his seat in the 2007 election.

After that the ULA could win anything up to eight seats - with the most likely winners (in my opinion) in order of prospects -
(i) Seamus Healy (South Tipperary) - Workers and Unemployed Action Group - a member of the League for a Workers Republic in the 1970's-80's. He is also a former member of parliament.
(ii) Clare Daly (Dublin North) - Socialist Party / CWI - who has been close to winning for the past two general elections and receives a big vote in local council elections
(iii) Joan Collins (Dublin South Central) - People Before Profit - a former member of the SP/CWI who is a local councillor.
(iv) Richard Boyd Barrett (Dun Laoghaire) who is a leading member of the SWP and runs under the PBP banner. Came close to winning in the last election.
(v) Mick Barry (Cork North Central) - Socialist Party / CWI - who also has a big local council vote and indications are that he is doing very well on the canvass.
(vi) Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid-West) - PBP/SWP - another local councillor who has an outside chance primarily because of the potential wipeout of government candidates.
(vii) Declan Bree (Sligo - North Leitrim) - Independent left - former LP member of parliament - still questionable if he will run under the ULA banner and has an outside chance of winning.
If I had to put money on it now I would say the ULA will win five seats.

5. The election is important and the more seats won and votes gathered - the more impact the ULA can potentially make. A momentum has emerged to covert the ULA from an electoral alliance into a fully fledged party - this will take some work given the divergent views of the different component parts - but I think at this stage it is an inevitable outcome. Local ULA launch meetings have attracted crowds from 50-200 in the different constituencies where the ULA are standing (18 out of 43). There certainly seems to be a desire from those attending to do something concrete.

6. However, more importantly, will be the post-election developments. The establishment are hoping that the election will provide a stable political situation that will facilitate their austerity programme. More likely is that the next government will be even more hated than the existing one within three-six months of getting into office. This will open up a massive political vacuum in Ireland that the left can step into if it does the job right. Furthermore, the government's attacks are likely to provoke opposition from working class people, particularly with attempts to impose flat rate taxes and charges - leading to campaigns led by the left being built within communities.

7. Any new left formation that will be built will not be revolutionary in outlook - the class consciousness that currently exists is a long way from making that happen. But we are likely to see a complete re-alignment of Irish politics along class lines - something that has not existed since 1920. Revolutionary groups within this new left formation will play a vital role and will grow if they adopt the right orientation and approach. It is possible that four trotskyists will be elected to the next parliament - something which would be unprecedented. I am confident that the Socialist Party / CWI will play a vital role in future developments. It will be interesting to see how the SWP deal with the unfloding situation. As time progresses it is possible that the revolutionary left will actually have significantly more influence within any new left formation than its number would dictate - i.e. getting more members of parliament and local councillors elected etc.

8. One complicating factor is Sinn Fein. There are many good socialists within Sinn Fein - but SF is not a left party. It is a nationalist/republican party that uses left rhetoric. Sinn Fein will make gains in this election - possibly 15 seats. It could potentially win more if it adopted a bold approach. However, it is very vulnerable to the fact that it is implementing £1billion in cuts in Northern Ireland. As a result the leadership appear to be adopting a conservative approach and toning down the anti-cuts rhetoric somewhat - e.g. Adams talks about Sinn Fein being willing to go into coalition with FG/LP and Sinn Fein does not call for an increase in corporation tax (the ULA does) and actually calls for the corpo tax rate in the North be reduced to the level in the South.

The analogy that I have been using is that Sinn Fein is like one of these circus performers that stands on two horses galloping around the circus ring trying to keep his balance. The problem for Sinn Fein is that the horses are pulling in the opposite direction to one another - one pro-cuts in the North, one anti-cuts in the South. Eventually (and it is a matter of months in reality) Sinn Fein will have to opt to jump onto one horse or fall between the two. My money is on them jumping on the pro-cuts Northern horse. Irrespective of what happens the SF leadership will only be able to keep up the excuse of 'the northern executive has no tax raising powers' for so long. Eventually it will wear thin even for its own members as the health and education systems are dismantled and conflict with Unionists increases. It is possible that a future left-right split could occur in SF - it has happened on a very small scale with Eirigi, but the next one could potentially be a lot bigger.

In summary - Ireland is facing an enormously difficult period - leading to likely default within three to five years. An enormous political vacuum is begining to open up and if the revolutionary left adopts the right orientation and approach then massive opportunities exist for the growth of the revolutionary left. This is not to say that setbacks won't occur - but the challange is there and hopefully the revolutionary left will not be found wanting.

Hope this answers you question somewhat.

[Crux]

General Election Challange of United Left Alliance Strengthens


The challenge of the United Left Alliance to the right wing consensus in Irish politics is strengthening rapidly. As of today, a total of 17 constituencies will be contested by 18 ULA candidates in the looming General Election.

As well as Tipperary South and West Waterford, eleven constituencies in Dublin, two in Cork, as well as Wexford and Limerick city, candidates have been nominated for Carlow/Kilkenny and Laois/Offaly. This means that almost 50% of Dáil constituencies will have a Left alternative to the establishment political parties.
At a press conference today, Joe Higgins MEP of the Socialist Party said:

“It is entirely possible that this number will be extended in the coming weeks but even at the current number, it is the first time in Irish politics that there was such a wide representation of principled Left candidates presented to the electorate in a General Election.

"The very positive response to the launch of the United Left Alliance throughout the country indicates a real thirst for a radical alternative to the establishment parties and particularly to Fine Gael and Labour, which although now in opposition, are pledged to essentially the same policy as Fianna Fail and the Green Party in implementing the diktats of the IMF/EU Commission on behalf of the bond marketers, speculators and European bankers.

“With the opinion polls currently pointing to the possibility of a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition with a large majority and supported in the Dáil by the discredited remnants of Fianna Fail, a significant bloc of principled Left Dáil deputies is crucial, to mount an effective opposition and offer a fundamental alternative to the attacks on the living standards of ordinary people and public services.”
Cllr Richard Boyd Barrett of the People Before Profit Alliance said:

“The revelations about Brian Cowen’s Golf outing with Sean Fitzpatrick and other figures in Anglo-Irish Bank, graphically underline the urgent need to break-up the golden circle that has brought this country to edge of the economic abyss.
“But if Fianna Fail have finally exposed themselves and now face wipe-out at the coming election, the big question is what an alternative government is going to do. This is what people on the door-steps are asking.

“It is clear that Fine Gael and Labour have no intention of reversing the damage done by Fianna Fail and their golden circle friends. They are long on rhetoric and sound-bites but short on specific commitments to reverse the unjust attacks on ordinary people.

“The United left Alliance is receiving a tremendous response across the country because it is being very clear and specific about what it stands for. We are for reversing unjust cuts on low and middle income families, investing directly in jobs programmes and making the bankers and super-wealthy pay for the crisis they created.

“In the coming weeks we intend to set out clearly our alternative programme and in the process demonstrate the failure of other parties to do the same. If the response we have received so far is anything to go by the ULA is going to make a very serious break-through in this election and begin the process of re-shaping the Irish political landscape in a progressive direction.”
Mass resignation from Laois/Offaly Labour Party - New Left Alternative organisation launched in constituency...

On Tuesday night, twenty members resigned from the Labour Party in Laois/Offaly, formed an independent Left wing organisation and nominated a candidate to stand in the General Election as part of the ULA. This followed the crude imposition of a General Election candidate by the Labour Party leadership at a Selection Convention in December where the democratic rights of ordinary members were trampled on. This was seen by the local members as an attempt to ensure that any candidates elected to the Dáil for the Labour Party would not oppose the intended policy of the leadership to join Fine Gael in government and continue the disastrous bailout policy of the present government.

The new Left group pledged to 'bring a left wing political and economic analysis to issues in Laois/Offaly' and to 'oppose the current right wing political consensus both locally and nationally especially in relation to the IMF/EU deal, the banking crisis, cuts to public services and the levying of further taxes on the lower paid and those on social welfare.'
Polling organisations requested to include United Left Alliance in opinion polls....

The Steering Committee of the United Left Alliance has written to the polling organisations requesting them to include the ULA in any future opinion polls on political support. The letter points out that among ULA candidates are several poll topping Councillors tipped to win Dáil seats and an MEP who won 12% of the vote in Dublin in the Euro Election. It further states: 'We feel that the potential support for our coherent political alliance is being obscured from the public debate by our inclusion in the category 'Others' or 'Independents'.
National Convention of the United Left Alliance...

A national convention of the United Left Alliance will be held in Dublin in mid-February. Further details will be announced but we can say now that it will be an important gathering of activists and will provide an important opportunity to debate and discuss the key political and organisational tasks facing the ULA.
ULA Candidates to date:

Cllr Mick Barry (Cork North Central), SP - ULA

Cllr Richard Boyd-Barrett (Dun Laoghaire), PBP - ULA

Cllr Joan Collins (Dublin South Central), PBP - ULA

Joe Higgins MEP (Dublin West), SP - ULA

Cllr Clare Daly (Dublin North), SP - ULA

Cllr Seamus Healy (South Tipperary and West Waterford), WUAG - ULA

Cllr Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West), PBP - ULA

Seamus O’Brien(Wexford), PBP - ULA

Mick Murphy (Dublin South West), SP - ULA

Cian Prendiville (Limerick City), SP - ULA

John Lyons (Dublin North Central) PBP - ULA

Annette Mooney (Dublin South East), PBP - ULA

Conor MacLiam (Carlow/Kilkenny) SP -ULA

Brian Greene (Dublin North East) SP -ULA

Anne Foley (Cork North West) PBP - ULA

Rob Connolly (Dublin Mid West) SP - ULA

Nicola Curry (Dublin South) PBP - ULA

Liam Dumpleton (Laois/Offaly) ULA

http://www.socialistparty.net/elections/575-general-election-challenge-of-united-left-alliance-strengthens
Correction the Laois/Offaly ULA will be standing Raymond Fitzpatrick, a pretty solid candidate as far as I can tell.
Pretty inspiring stuff:
Raymond
Fitzpatrick on formation of Laois/Offaly United left Alliance (http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/video-raymond-fitzpatrick-on-formation-of-laoisoffaly-united-left-alliance/)

Why the Laois/Offaly group joined the United left Alliance? (http://vimeo.com/19215250)

[Soldier of life]

Can I ask why socialism is not mentioned in the ULA programme?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Can I ask why socialism is not mentioned in the ULA programme?

In three letters - SWP

[Soldier of life]

In three letters - SWP

I've discussed this with a couple of people and our conclusion was that without doubt it was the SWP behind it. What a bunch of trendy jokers.

I recall a prominent member of their group stating at a public meeting that we have to make our 'socialism' appeal to the likes of health consultants and to try and convince these people our model is best. They are pie in the sky trots and their stance on the USSR is crazy.

I would love to see a mass revolutionary party form out of the ULA, which would include the IRSP, eirigi, WP, ISN, SD etc but tbh, there can be on equivocation about the fact we are revolutionary socialists. If they are afraid to call themselves socialists then they should pack up their tent.

[Jolly Red Giant]

For anyone interested - this is a link to the manifesto leaflet for Joe Higgins MEP, Socialist Party / CWI candidate in Dublin West in the General Election in Irelandon 25th Feb. The Socialist Party are standing as part of the United Left Alliance in the election.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/briangreene/QlwfIxbM0arzmGR2RqRkaWgkMAMYV9f0cSzc97OGwKXfy5uoME QVCBKsI3uL/joe_higgins_manifesto_Layout_1.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId= AKIAJFZAE65UYRT34AOQ&Expires=1297546281&Signature=VnoqvKnzJuLQBqlBYgNAB0aRoLI%3D

[Jolly Red Giant]

An opinion poll in Dublin published today show the ULA and others/independents on 16% of the vote - the research companies continue to refuse to provide an option for a seperate survey including the ULA as a seperate entity (yet they include the Greens who hover around 1-2%).

This poll would indicate that the ULA will take at least four seats in Dublin and could spring a surprise in a couple of other constituencies.

A seperate constituency poll in Cork indicates that Mick Barry Socialist Party / ULA candidate is fighting for the last seat and has built significant momentum in the ULA campaign in Cork.

Reports from canvassing indicate that Seamus Healy will take a seat for the ULA in South Tipperary and a former LP member of parliament, Declan Bree has declared that he will stand as the ULA candidate in Sligo.

If current indications are borne out on election day then the ULA could return with between 6-9 seats forming a strong left-block in the Irish Parliament and creating the ground work for the launching of the ULA as a mass left party.

[Crux]

Soldier of life: For the record Socialist democracy is backing the ULA (http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentStatementVoteForTheUnitedLeftAlliance.html).

[Jolly Red Giant]

A new constituency poll shows Seamus Healy being comfortably elected for the ULA in Tipperary South with both sitting government candidates likely to lose.

[Soldier of life]

Soldier of life: For the record Socialist democracy is backing the ULA (http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentStatementVoteForTheUnitedLeftAlliance.html).

Excellent.

This looks like a very good opportunity to build a mass revolutionary party in Ireland.

The left sectarianism needs to take a backseat for a while, we could be facing a one-party blueshirt government.

[Jolly Red Giant]

A second constituency poll in Cork confirms that Mick Barry Socialist Party / ULA is in the mix to win seat. He is set to treble his vote from the last election.

[Andropov]

Which seats do you reckon the ULA will get JRG?
If Bree stays ahead of O'Keefe and Colreavy he should get the third seat in Sligo by picking up their transfers.
The problem with the constituencey is that the town is saddled with a large swathe of rural conservative voters outside of Sligo Town, including North Leitrim.
If it was just reserved to urban areas he would walk it since he got the highest poll in the Borough elections.
From my understanding Higgins should walk it a definite for the seat, with then Daly, Boyd Barrett and Healy with excellent prospects of getting in.
Then the likes of Barry in Cork has the same problem as Bree, that his constituency is saddled with a large rural conservative area, if it were just the Northside of the City he would walk it.
How is Collins's prospects looking?

[Andropov]

a former LP member of parliament, Declan Bree has declared that he will stand as the ULA candidate in Sligo.
He was in the LP for a few years but was in the CPI for much much longer.
One of only 3 people to ever get elected for the CPI.

[Crux]

Which seats do you reckon the ULA will get JRG?
If Bree stays ahead of O'Keefe and Colreavy he should get the third seat in Sligo by picking up their transfers.
The problem with the constituencey is that the town is saddled with a large swathe of rural conservative voters outside of Sligo Town, including North Leitrim.
If it was just reserved to urban areas he would walk it since he got the highest poll in the Borough elections.
From my understanding Higgins should walk it a definite for the seat, with then Daly, Boyd Barrett and Healy with excellent prospects of getting in.
Then the likes of Barry in Cork has the same problem as Bree, that his constituency is saddled with a large rural conservative area, if it were just the Northside of the City he would walk it.
How is Collins's prospects looking?
Seamus Healy in Tipperary South seems to be leading the polls so far and might even be elected on the first count.
Sources: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0216/1224289930282.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0216/1224289929958.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0217/1224290025738.html

Here's the Socialist Party's Political Broadcast for the election:
jiOK0yYIjCw

It appears the Laois/Offaly group has joined the SP.

[Crux]

Well or at least Ray Fitzpatrick seems to be. Some clarification why Fitzpatrick is the ULA candidate and Dumpleton is not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ketyxs9DY Seems the ULA got the better option.

[RedTrackWorker]

I'm for calling for voting for the ULA as it stands against all the austerity attacks and workers and youth will clearly look to it as a way of fighting back and I solidarize with that. A vote for it will send a message of opposition to austerity and put the ULA to the test of office.
However, what it's lacking and as far as I know what the parties that make it up (and those that stand outside it) lack is a call for an unlimited general strike by the working class to cancel all the austerity attacks. I think this is the key issue facing the Irish working class right now, as a letter from Ireland that'll soon be published on our website will argue.
I hope revolutionary-minded workers and youth will draw the lesson from that: that the ULA and its parties are not the political force that we need.
Solidarity to the Irish workers and their struggle--from a union founded largely because of the struggles of Irish republicans and socialists.

[Crux]

I'm for calling for voting for the ULA as it stands against all the austerity attacks and workers and youth will clearly look to it as a way of fighting back and I solidarize with that. A vote for it will send a message of opposition to austerity and put the ULA to the test of office.
However, what it's lacking and as far as I know what the parties that make it up (and those that stand outside it) lack is a call for an unlimited general strike by the working class to cancel all the austerity attacks. I think this is the key issue facing the Irish working class right now, as a letter from Ireland that'll soon be published on our website will argue.
I hope revolutionary-minded workers and youth will draw the lesson from that: that the ULA and its parties are not the political force that we need.
Solidarity to the Irish workers and their struggle--from a union founded largely because of the struggles of Irish republicans and socialists.
In fact the call for a general strike has been made several times:
http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/protest-at-dail-against-imfeu-and-budget-madness-during-debate-and-vote-on-wednesday-december-15th/

[Jolly Red Giant]

Which seats do you reckon the ULA will get JRG?
The ULA could get anywhere between 1-6 seats.

In order of likelihood now (in my opinion) -
Healy
Higgins
Daly
Collins
Boyd-Barrett
Barry
Bree
Kenny

There are some indications of a little drift from SF and the ULA back to the LP - based on the fear some people have of an overall FG majority.


If Bree stays ahead of O'Keefe and Colreavy he should get the third seat in Sligo by picking up their transfers.
The problem with the constituencey is that the town is saddled with a large swathe of rural conservative voters outside of Sligo Town, including North Leitrim.
If it was just reserved to urban areas he would walk it since he got the highest poll in the Borough elections.
You are correct - and Bree was damaged by his support for coalitions in the past. I think SF have a better chance at the moment but I doubt either win.


Then the likes of Barry in Cork has the same problem as Bree, that his constituency is saddled with a large rural conservative area, if it were just the Northside of the City he would walk it.
There is a little misconception here in that a lot of the 'rural' area comprises of expanding satellite towns now populated by people from the city. Other party canvassers are indicating that Mick Barry's name is coming up a lot more than they expected in the 'rural' towns.

It is interesting that the Irish Examiner commenting on their constituency poll said that SF were poised to win a seat - yet SF were on 12% in the poll and the SP/ULA were on 11%. They automatically assumed that Mick Barry vote will elect SF, when it could be the other way around - indeed both could even win a seat.


How is Collins's prospects looking?
I think Joan Collins has a very good chance - the LP would have to win 3 seats in that constituency (out of 5) for her to lose out.

This is a very unpredictable election and it is a really difficult election for the ULA despite the opposition to the cuts and the bank bailout. The ULA could get 60,000 (2.8%) of the national vote and not win a seat. At the same time the ULA could get 30,000 and win 6 seats.


I'm for calling for voting for the ULA as it stands against all the austerity attacks and workers and youth will clearly look to it as a way of fighting back and I solidarize with that. A vote for it will send a message of opposition to austerity and put the ULA to the test of office.
However, what it's lacking and as far as I know what the parties that make it up (and those that stand outside it) lack is a call for an unlimited general strike by the working class to cancel all the austerity attacks. I think this is the key issue facing the Irish working class right now, as a letter from Ireland that'll soon be published on our website will argue.
I hope revolutionary-minded workers and youth will draw the lesson from that: that the ULA and its parties are not the political force that we need.
Solidarity to the Irish workers and their struggle--from a union founded largely because of the struggles of Irish republicans and socialists.
This is mad ultra-leftism from people who have no understanding of the situation in Ireland.

An unlimited general strike poses the necessity for a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. In order to have any prospect of success the majority of the working class would have to have developed a class consciousness to the level of understanding the necessity to organise the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. Ireland is not in a revolutionary peroid, it is not in a pre-revolutionary period, it is not in a pre-pre-revolutionary period or anything close to it and the Irish working class (with the exception of a very small minority) have not developed anything approaching the necessary level of class consciousness. Fortunately your pronouncements will be little more than a dead fly squashed on the windscreen of the Irish working class when they move into struggle.

[Andropov]

You are correct - and Bree was damaged by his support for coalitions in the past.
Not among his core working class support tbh.
Just among the more middle class voters.

I think SF have a better chance at the moment but I doubt either win.
Colreavy has a decent chance but IMO Bree should land ahead of him and O'Keefe picking up their transfers.
Mainly because Colreavy is based in North Leitrim so Bree should clean up in the town, North Leitrim wont get you elected. Now if PSF ran Sean Mc Manus who is very popular in Sligo Town I would have said they would have been a shoe in but Colreay is a significantly weaker candidate.
Bree polled highest in the Borough elections and has a very solid working class vote in the town.
He also polled the second highest in the second biggest population centre in Sligo in Strandhill for the CC.
People are seriously under estimating the pull that Bree has

[Jolly Red Giant]

Not among his core working class support tbh.
Just among the more middle class voters.

Colreavy has a decent chance but IMO Bree should land ahead of him and O'Keefe picking up their transfers.
Mainly because Colreavy is based in North Leitrim so Bree should clean up in the town, North Leitrim wont get you elected. Now if PSF ran Sean Mc Manus who is very popular in Sligo Town I would have said they would have been a shoe in but Colreay is a significantly weaker candidate.
Bree polled highest in the Borough elections and has a very solid working class vote in the town.
He also polled the second highest in the second biggest population centre in Sligo in Strandhill for the CC.
People are seriously under estimating the pull that Bree has
Interesting and informative - thanks - you always get a better idea of how things are going from someone with local knowledge.

[RedTrackWorker]

I point out the need for an unlimited general strike to stop the attacks in Ireland. One CWI comrade says: "We're doing it!" and then the next says: "mad ultra-leftism!" What is the difference between the general strike calls Majakovskij linked to and an unlimited/indefinite general strike till the attacks are stopped? Just look at the pensions struggle in France: they had strikes and general strikes but not an all-out mobilization to continue until the attacks were stopped, allowing the union bureaucrats to isolate and contain the struggle. So from the perspective of growing their sect, the CWI can talk about strikes and general strikes and appear militant and revolutionary, but from the perspective of defending the interests of the working class, explaining the role the union leaders will play and how to overcome them, explaining the scale of the attacks and what it will take to fight them, in terms of that...failure of leadership.


In fact the call for a general strike has been made several times:
http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/protest-at-dail-against-imfeu-and-budget-madness-during-debate-and-vote-on-wednesday-december-15th/


This is mad ultra-leftism from people who have no understanding of the situation in Ireland.

An unlimited general strike poses the necessity for a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. In order to have any prospect of success the majority of the working class would have to have developed a class consciousness to the level of understanding the necessity to organise the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. Ireland is not in a revolutionary peroid, it is not in a pre-revolutionary period, it is not in a pre-pre-revolutionary period or anything close to it and the Irish working class (with the exception of a very small minority) have not developed anything approaching the necessary level of class consciousness. Fortunately your pronouncements will be little more than a dead fly squashed on the windscreen of the Irish working class when they move into struggle.

Trotsky said that a general strike raises the question of "who will rule society?" but he did not say that a general strike requires revolutionary consciousness, which is what you're saying. And he didn't say that because it's so obviously wrong. Look at Lenin's lecture on the 1905 revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jan/09.htm) which doesn't discuss in those terms but shows how the struggle did not depend on a prior recognition of the need to overthrow capitalism or a "pre-revolutionary period" or what have you.
Then the final bit is especially rich: "Fortunately your pronouncements will be little more than a dead fly squashed on the windscreen of the Irish working class when they move into struggle." So they're going to move into struggle, but by squashing the perspective of an unlimited general strike to stop the attacks? So you think they can stop the attacks without an unlimited general strike, or do you not care if they win and just hope to recruit from the "struggle"?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Unlimited general strikes before the DOTP are foolish in that they con workers into taking power without having enough political awareness. Do you think such workers right now appreciate recallability, average skilled workers wages, juries instead of judges, workers militias, and other stuff of the DOTP?

[Crux]

I point out the need for an unlimited general strike to stop the attacks in Ireland. One CWI comrade says: "We're doing it!" and then the next says: "mad ultra-leftism!"
I am sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, you are indeed a mad ultraleftist. An unlimited general strike is not something you can just will into existence, especially not by just receiving a letter from Ireland. Thanks for your support though.

[Lyev]

I am sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, you are indeed a mad ultraleftist. An unlimited general strike is not something you can just will into existence, especially not by just receiving a letter from Ireland. Thanks for your support though.What kind of method and strategy do you posit for slowing down or stopping austerity measures, the IMF, and vulture investors?

[Coggeh]

What kind of method and strategy do you posit for slowing down or stopping austerity measures, the IMF, and vulture investors?
We are calling for a general strike to stop government and oppose the IMF bailout. Right now doing so is the only possible and probably tactic for the CWI and the ULA. However Majakovskij is right in that this cannot be willed into existence and so far our calls have not come to fruition but by using elected TD's as a platform to call on trade unions rank and file members to oppose social partnership, croke park deal and the trade union leaders bureaucracy we would have a much higher impact in terms of calling for a general strike and successfully creating a mass opposition of working class people and youth against the cuts and the IMF deal.

[RedTrackWorker]

What kind of method and strategy do you posit for slowing down or stopping austerity measures, the IMF, and vulture investors?

Good question. I await the answer, but based on the link it seems to be a series of time-limited strikes and general strikes and big demos like they had in France to stop the pension reform, i.e. a perfect set-up for the union bureaucracy to isolate more militant workers and tear them out while letting some sections blow off steam as happened there. In other words, instead of saying, "Let's learn from the French workers' struggle" it's saying "..."?

As for Majakovskij's comment that "An unlimited general strike is not something you can just will into existence, especially not by just receiving a letter from Ireland.", of course this is just a gibberish response. No one said anything about willing it into existence. The point is to fight for it. To explain why it is necessary and why other measures will not work, to explain that while the ULA vote may register resistance, that vote itself will not stop the attacks and so the election platform should be used to fight for a plan of action that could possibly stop the attacks.
Perhaps you disagree with that analysis. Fine, explain why. But don't insult the intelligence of the revleft readers by making up strawmen like "willing into existence with a letter".

[RedTrackWorker]

We are calling for a general strike to stop government and oppose the IMF bailout. Right now doing so is the only possible and probably tactic for the CWI and the ULA.

But this evades the question: are time-limited strikes going to be able to stop the attacks, and why is the call for an unlimited general strike impossible? The call was made by masses of workers in France, no? Was not the problem there the lack of a political leadership pointing out not just the need for an "all-out" general strike but how to get it (a struggle against the leadership of the unions and the NPA)?
If France had strikes and general strikes and failed to stop the attacks, do you not think telling the Irish workers "do what they did" might not fall a bit flat? Rather than saying, "Yes, emulate the courage of their struggle, but we can learn from its limitations, learn how their leaders limited them and we can do that by pointing out the key struggle for an unlimited general strike to stop all the attacks and how this is in the interests of the workers, they're objectively capable of doing it but their leaders stand in their way."

[Coggeh]

But this evades the question: are time-limited strikes going to be able to stop the attacks, and why is the call for an unlimited general strike impossible? The call was made by masses of workers in France, no? Was not the problem there the lack of a political leadership pointing out not just the need for an "all-out" general strike but how to get it (a struggle against the leadership of the unions and the NPA)?
If France had strikes and general strikes and failed to stop the attacks, do you not think telling the Irish workers "do what they did" might not fall a bit flat? Rather than saying, "Yes, emulate the courage of their struggle, but we can learn from its limitations, learn how their leaders limited them and we can do that by pointing out the key struggle for an unlimited general strike to stop all the attacks and how this is in the interests of the workers, they're objectively capable of doing it but their leaders stand in their way."
Your correct in that yes establishment "leaders" of the working class( trade union bureaucracy/ labour parties) but other things affect the potential of the working class movement such as class consciousness and conditions.

Right now in Ireland the conditions are not there to call for an unlimited general strike. We are not in a revolutionary period. So far our calls for a 48 hours general strike have no succeeded. You have quoted Trotsky earlier yet you fail to understand transition demands and the significance of strike action itself to working class people.

By going on strike workers recognize their power, their withdrawal of labour which shuts down sectors of or the entire economy (depending on the strike action whether sectoral or general) shows workers their power what they can achieve etc.

Workers would not heed a call for an unlimited general strike which would mean calling out workers to strike against capitalism and shutting it down in order to create socialism/DOTP in reality. The conditions for such a call do no exist in the current climate. But by calling for a 48 hour general strike against cuts/ IMF deal etc we can at the same time call for further action such as demanding nationalisation of key industries under workers control and steadily going further.

Revolutionary parties exist in order not to create conditions but to use current conditions to push workers to recognize their power and their needs politically and economically.

[Crux]

Good question. I await the answer, but based on the link it seems to be a series of time-limited strikes and general strikes and big demos like they had in France to stop the pension reform, i.e. a perfect set-up for the union bureaucracy to isolate more militant workers and tear them out while letting some sections blow off steam as happened there. In other words, instead of saying, "Let's learn from the French workers' struggle" it's saying "..."?

As for Majakovskij's comment that "An unlimited general strike is not something you can just will into existence, especially not by just receiving a letter from Ireland.", of course this is just a gibberish response. No one said anything about willing it into existence. The point is to fight for it. To explain why it is necessary and why other measures will not work, to explain that while the ULA vote may register resistance, that vote itself will not stop the attacks and so the election platform should be used to fight for a plan of action that could possibly stop the attacks.
Perhaps you disagree with that analysis. Fine, explain why. But don't insult the intelligence of the revleft readers by making up strawmen like "willing into existence with a letter".
I think Coggeh answered this quite well already.

[Die Neue Zeit]

By going on strike workers recognize their power, their withdrawal of labour which shuts down sectors of or the entire economy (depending on the strike action whether sectoral or general) shows workers their power what they can achieve etc.

Workers would not heed a call for an unlimited general strike which would mean calling out workers to strike against capitalism and shutting it down in order to create socialism/DOTP in reality. The conditions for such a call do no exist in the current climate. But by calling for a 48 hour general strike against cuts/ IMF deal etc we can at the same time call for further action such as demanding nationalisation of key industries under workers control and steadily going further.

Revolutionary parties exist in order not to create conditions but to use current conditions to push workers to recognize their power and their needs politically and economically.

While I concede the possibility of an all-out, One Big Mass Strike to usher in the post-monetary lower phase of the communist mode of production, any application of this before the DOTP would be conning the workers politically.

Shutting down entire sectors: Yeah, where's my car fuel, or my pre-packaged food?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Let's be clear - there is no prospect of an unlimited general strike emerging in Ireland in the immediate or mid-term period. The CWI is demanding that the union bureaucracy call a 24 hour general strike as the first step in building a campaign of opposition up to and including longer term strike action. The union leaderships by and large are supporting the LP going into a coalition with another right-wing party.

The attitude of the working class is that they plan on giving the outgoing government a kicking in the election on Friday. Some will vote for Fine Gael and Labour and a smaller percentage will vote for parties opposing cuts, namely Sinn Fein and the United Left Alliance. The vast majority have not thought about what will happen after that.

Within a very short period after the election the working class will be faced with new onslaughts - the cuts imposed in the last budget will be implemented mercilessly now that the election is out of the way. Workers will be faced with a host of flat rate taxes, wholesale privatisation (including health) and the driving down of jobs and wages. There will be a response and the CWI will lead and assist many of these campaigns as we have in the past - all the time fighting to replace the rotten bureaucracy in the unions while pressuring them at the same time so they have no option but to call strike action.

This is not a short term strategy but a clear tried and tested one where left and revolutionary forces are built. Progress is being made. My local SP branch has nearly doubled in size since the start of the election campaign. When the ULA is launched locally as a party after the election it will garner significant support from working class people.

The demands for an unlimited general strike bare no relationship to the mood in society. For example, while in electoral terms the far-left in Ireland is significantly more advanced than in the UK - in trade union terms we are very far behind the UK. We have no left trade union leaders, no organised activist network worth talking about etc. We are attempting to assist in the building of these necessary measures. However, they do not and will not happen overnight.

There is no mood among the Irish working class for an unlimited general strike. There is a mood during these past couple of months for politically opposing the cuts through parliamentary means by supporting anti-cuts parties. Getting 4 or 5 ULA members elected will significantly boost opposition to the cuts. It will hopefully facilitate the building of a new mass left party and increasing support for revolutionaries. It will hopefully facilitate workers in having greater confidence in engaging in strike action in opposition to cuts. It will hopefully see successsful battles in forcing back the austerity programme. But no one, and I mean no one, can predict how the situation will develop.

In terms of the prospects of success - CWI representatives in the national and local media consistantly point out that the economic crisis cannot be solved by austerity, constantly explain that the banking system and other sections of the economy need to be taken into democratic public ownership to facilitate planning the economy, consistanly argue for the need to build mass opposition to the cuts, consistanly call for pressure to be put on the trade union leadership to call a 24 hour general strike as the first step of strike action to defeat the cuts and consistanly explain that the attacks are occurring on a continental wide basis and the response needs to be build across Europe through united action between the working classes of all countries.

RedTrack - to baldly call for an unlimited general strike without any understanding of the mood and nature of the struggle in Ireland would be to cut ourselves completely off from the Irish working class - they would consider us absolutely daft - there would be no support and we would be completely isolated. Yet the approach we are adopting is getting an echo - slowly many people are coming to the realisation that more is needed in terms of opposition. At every point during the election we patiently explain that the new government will be worse than the old one and we tell people that, irrespective of the election result, we will be on the ground helping workers and communities to fight the cuts being imposed on them. This is what is changing consciousness, this is what is building support and this is where the CWI will be in the months ahead - not sitting at a keyboard calling for 'unlimited general strikes'.

[Lyev]

Another contentious issue, perhaps: If the ULA and its various participants insist on calling on the ICTU to lead or implement a general strike - and seemingly not an unlimited one, but a 24-hour strike - will the action happen to late to stop austerity? We have seen this in the UK as well, where activists and trade-unionists called for a general strike either just a bit before or after Christmas. But we are seeing one happen not even this month, but late in March. Indeed, I had a similar problem locally with the 'left establishment' when trying to organise a student demo; it was organised almost wholly by Labour supporters and members, so instead of calling it when tuition fees were rising, and when EMA was being abolished (around Nov. time, which they very much could have), it ended up being in early February. However, I am not sure what other tactics are readily feasible for overseeing such a big mobilisation.

[RedTrackWorker]

So still no serious analysis from the CWI on why the French struggle failed but the Irish one will succeed--in seemingly tougher circumstances--without an unlimited general strike. Until someone explains to me why they think the austerity attacks in Ireland can be stopped without such an all-out struggle that the French workers fought for but were blocked from, then all this talk of "impossible" just means you're saying that the workers are incapable of defending their living standards in Ireland right now. Which can be true in immediate situations after strategic defeats but it is not true in Ireland--it's a question of leadership. And if you do not think such a defense is possible, you should say so openly.

Further, "Jolly Red Giant"'s last post is a textbook example of covering up for opportunism and reformism by basing things on the workers' "moods" and on the revolutionaries' abilities to change those moods, rather than looking at what is objectively necessary and possible and pointing to a "line of march" and prospects of development. Of course, "mood" is an aspect of what is possible and necessary but for anyone that actually has studied the method of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky it is not even secondary.

[Crux]

So still no serious analysis from the CWI on why the French struggle failed
This isn't a thread on France but if you're looking for the CWI analysis on France knock yourself out: http://www.socialistworld.net/view/48
Now that we're done with that, it's funny how you dance around the issue.
You didn't respond to a single thing being said, I mean speaking of serious.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I can explain France on a more political basis: no popular recall campaigns, and constituency elections are held on a runoff voting basis.

[Crux]

iVLAKYdL7HM

[Jolly Red Giant]

Canvassing with Joe Higgins adds clout for popular Mick Barry

http://www.irishexaminer.com/election/analysis/canvassing-with-joe-higgins-adds-clout-for-popular-mick-barry-146090.html

Irish Examiner - Cork based national newspaper

[Jolly Red Giant]

Final push underway in the election campaign. The expected drift back to the Labour Party does not appear to have materialised so far. The last opinion polls of the campaign show support of smaller parties and independents (including the ULA) is holding steady.

My current estimation for ULA seats is 4-6 in order of likely success

1. Seamus Healy
2. Joe Higgins
3. Clare Daly
4. Joan Collins
5. Mick Barry
6. Richard Boyd Barrett
7. Declan Bree

[Tommy4ever]

Well, the polls are now open. My best wishes to the Irish Left.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Well, the polls are now open. My best wishes to the Irish Left.
Some idea of how things are going will begin to emerge around 11am tomorrow (GMT) as the first tally numbers appear. Official results in most cases won't start coming in until late afternoon.

[Aurora]

Just got back from voting, quite alot of people at the polling station, apparently the turn out over the country is high.

Gave my No1 to Mick Barry ULA-SP and No2 to Ted Tynan WP.

Shame the WP didn't join the ULA, if the polls are to be believed this constituency will be very close.

[farleft]

Based on the results of the RTE exit poll, Professor Michael Marsh from Trinity College Dublin made the following estimate of the shape of the next 166-strong Irish parliament:

Fine Gael 72 seats
Labour 38 seats
Fianna Fail 20 seats
Independents 20 seats
Sinn Fein 15 seats
Greens 1 seat

BBC - News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12585048)

[Aurora]

Joe Higgins definately elected with over 8000 first preference, Richard Boyd-Barrett may just lose out on transfers he has a very strong 6200 first preference, the seat probably too close to call atm.

Respectable votes for both Gino Kenny and Mick Murphy with around 2500 each in their constituencies.

Clare Daly just got 7500 first preference she's set to take the third seat if shes unlucky on transfers she'll prob take the fourth.

[Aurora]

Joe Higgins just elected.

Seamus Healy set to be elected with 8800 first preference either first or second seat.

[Aurora]

Seamus Healy elected.

Joan Collins expected to be elected, first count not in yet though.

The Green Party are destroyed and Fianna Fail are not doing as bad as the polls expected but still hemorrhaging seats.

[Zeus the Moose]

A short photoessay of the Irish elections:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/DeusExSylvanus/micheal-martin.jpg

[Andropov]

http://contact.ie/sites/default/files/imagecache/add_image_original_size/margaret_thatcher.png

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182050_10150097633415835_538750834_6327038_225094_ n.jpg

http://rulehibernia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/enda-kenny-poster1.jpg

[Gravedigger01]

5 seats for the United Left Alliance and seats for indepedents like John Halligan and Thomas Pringle. This was a wonderful result for the Irish far-left.

Its a shame that Mick Barry and Catherine Connolly missed out but if the momentum is kept up they should win in a seat in the next election possibly along with Gino Kenny and Declan Bree.

[Gravedigger01]

My mistake Catherine Connolly is still in with a shout.She hasn't been eliminated yet but it will be a close one for the last seat.

Fidelma H.E(Fine Gael)-6814
Sean Kyne(Fine Gael-6735
Catherine Connolly(Ind)-6573

[Jolly Red Giant]

5 seats for the United Left Alliance and seats for indepedents like John Halligan and Thomas Pringle. This was a wonderful result for the Irish far-left.

Its a shame that Mick Barry and Catherine Connolly missed out but if the momentum is kept up they should win in a seat in the next election possibly along with Gino Kenny and Declan Bree.
Both Halligan and Connolly voted for bin charges - it would be a push to describe them as far-left.

If the ULA works correctly the potential exists for running candidates in every constituency and taking 20 seats. Within 12 months there will be a massive vacuum in Irish politics as the FG/LP government become the most hated government ever in Ireland as they implement IMF/ECB dictats. FF are as good as in the grave and the ULA is capable of stepping into the massive vacuum on the left that will exist.

As an aside - I expect Sinn Fein to begin to position themselves as future potential coalition partners for the right.

[farleft]

Are the full results out yet?

[pastradamus]

Are the full results out yet?

Well, for example the votes in Wicklow still needs to be counted as there was 24 candidates in that constituancy and because of the proportional representation system - all the voted need to be transfered and its quite time-consuming. So its just a matter of that and a few other constituancies finishing until we have 100% confirmation.

That being said, it wont make too much of a difference as far as the United Left Allience is concerned.


The Elected ULA candidates are:

Joe Higgins (socialist party)
Clare Daly (socialist party)
Richard Boyd-Barrett (people before profit allience)
Joan Collins (people before profit allience)
Seamus Healy (South Tipperary Workers and Unemployed Action Group)

[pastradamus]

Both Halligan and Connolly voted for bin charges - it would be a push to describe them as far-left.

Agreed, Still though. There are a few extra people shouting at Fine Gael.



If the ULA works correctly the potential exists for running candidates in every constituency and taking 20 seats.

Im not sure Id go that far but just to mention that Ann Foley of the PBP did well in Cork North West which is probably the most conservative constituancy in the country and its encouraging to see signs like this for the future, Mick Barry was also a big performer and this is testiment to his strong showing - particularly in the working-class dominated North Cork City.



Within 12 months there will be a massive vacuum in Irish politics as the FG/LP government become the most hated government ever in Ireland as they implement IMF/ECB dictats. FF are as good as in the grave and the ULA is capable of stepping into the massive vacuum on the left that will exist.

Again, I dont know. I'd love to agree with you but when tweedledum goes out tweedledee comes right back in. One thing is certain and that is that FG/Lb governments are usually much weaker that FF governments so its gonna be interesting to see how they hang in there.


As an aside - I expect Sinn Fein to begin to position themselves as future potential coalition partners for the right.

Agreed. They have been flirting with the Labour party now for quite some time.

[Crux]

Clare Daly and Joe Higgins - First day in the new Dail (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4919)