Muslims burn poppies, angry backlash

[Garret]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8126357/Muslims-clash-with-police-after-burning-poppy-in-anti-Armistice-Day-protest.html


About 35 Islamic protesters, dressed in dark clothes and with many masking their faces, carried banners and chanted slogans such as "British soldiers: terrorists".

The group confronted police officers and briefly fought with them, leaving one officer with a head injury requiring hospital treatment, and three arrests were made.

Around 50 counter demonstrators from the far-right English Defence League gathered nearby but officers kept the two sides apart.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cetGUdada8g&feature=topvideos

Doing this out was not the right thing to do to get the message accross. This is more fuel to the fire of islamaphobia, which you can clearly see in the youtube videos' comments.

[Razor]

I strongly disagree with their actions but I also disagree with the term "Islamic protesters" when the protest is entirely politically motivated. At least they should be called "Muslim protesters". "Islamic" implies that its influenced my Islam, whereas Muslim would imply the origin of the people protesting.

The moderates will no doubt bear the brunt of the backlash for the actions of 35 idiots.

[Jazzratt]

The moderates will no doubt bear the brunt of the backlash for the actions of 35 idiots. Not just "the moderates". People who aren't even fucking muslim will be blamed or attacked in the backlash. Any vaguely asian looking person's going to catch shit off the usual suspects, but then the usual suspects would be dishing it out whatever.

Distressingly I "know" someone on facebook who's joined one of those groups howling for the blood of these people. The attitude is basically that they're filthy foreigners trampling on proud "indigenous" (i.e. white) tradition. There's becomes, whether it is or not, the voice of asian british people to people with these prejudices being pumped into them constantly by comic books like the Star or the Daily Mail.

[Rainsborough]

I strongly disagree with their actions but I also disagree with the term "Islamic protesters" when the protest is entirely politically motivated. At least they should be called "Muslim protesters". "Islamic" implies that its influenced my Islam, whereas Muslim would imply the origin of the people protesting.

The moderates will no doubt bear the brunt of the backlash for the actions of 35 idiots.

And do you think that calling them "Muslim protestors" would have been better, and that moderates would be less likely to face the backlash?
They were "Islamic Protestors" their banners etc proclaimed islamic sentiments. If a bunch of protestors waved crosses and quoted passages from the Bible, or carried Jewish symbols and slogans do you think it would be wrong to identify them as 'Christian' or 'Jewish'?

[Razor]

And do you think that calling them "Muslim protestors" would have been better, and that moderates would be less likely to face the backlash?
They were "Islamic Protestors" their banners etc proclaimed islamic sentiments. If a bunch of protestors waved crosses and quoted passages from the Bible, or carried Jewish symbols and slogans do you think it would be wrong to identify them as 'Christian' or 'Jewish'?

Its an anti war protest. A very disrespectful one but I fail to see any Islamic reason. Muslim Anti-war protesters would be a better description.

Regarding the Quranic verses and slogans, it still doesnt change an anti-war protest into anything Islamic. Muslims use them everywhere. i.e 786 etc

[Rainsborough]

Its an anti war protest. A very disrespectful one but I fail to see any Islamic reason. Muslim Anti-war protesters would be a better description.

Regarding the Quranic verses and slogans, it still doesnt change an anti-war protest into anything Islamic. Muslims use them everywhere. i.e 786 etc

Forgive my ignorance, but, are Muslims not Islamic. Or are you saying that Muslims are a separate ethnicity? Because I always thought that a Muslim was someone who followed the Islamic faith, of course I could be wrong.

[The Idler]

Pro-war sectarian imperialists clash with pro-war sectarian Muslim imperialists.

[Palingenisis]

Pro-war sectarian imperialists clash with pro-war sectarian Muslim imperialists.

Uh....if the child rapist British huns came to your village would you greet them with some political argument?

[The Idler]

Uh....if the child rapist British huns came to your village would you greet them with some political argument?
I wouldn't greet them with religious argument.

[I.Drink.Your.Milkshake]

Yeah "Anti-war protestors" needs to be the lexical choice. And this whole thing has highlighted the hypocrisy and racism in the British media and wider public right now.

The Celtic fans protesting the poppies werent called "Catholic protestors", but the Muslim guys are called "Islamic protestors", because it fits the narrative - The muslims are the bad guys, and the muslims need to be the bad guys, because "we've" got troops out there fighting "them".

A few months back the IRA threatened to start attacking mainland UK again. Were the headlines about "Catholic fundamentalists threaten UK", or EDL marches talking about taking "Catholic terrorism off our streets", or "Not all Catholics are terrorists, but most terrorists are Catholic"? No.

A "friend" of mine (I use the term loosely, as I find his increasing Racism and Homophobia sickening) texted me after reading about the above protests, saying that "I fucking hate muslims, have u seen them all burning the poppies?". I sent one back asking how he felt about the Catholic protests in Scotland and am still waiting for a reply (actually I was quite antagonistic and said things that I darent repeat here lest they be taken offensively, which they easily could despite my intentions.)

Anyway, sorry for rambling, but the point I'm trying to make is that I believe for a large, large, LARGE portion of the people in this country, this debate is not even about religion, it is about SKIN COLOUR! It's purely about racism and "brown people coming over here" blah blah blah.

Sorry for rambling again... Im a little drunk. Just been watching the Haye-Harrison "fight".


EDIT: Please, please, please do not take offence if you are Catholic. I am merely trying to vent spleen on white I see as biased reporting in the media and blatant racism in the general public.

[Amphictyonis]

The middle east needs a period of bourgeois enlightenment to rid itself of religious fundamentalism/theocracy.Is that statement cultural imperialism? I kinda think so but wonder if it would be such a bad thing to see the middle east in general break with religion. I'm christianaphobic. When Russia went into Afghanistan they advocated atheism and banned some of the traditional backwards (religious) cultural practices. Was that cultural imperialism? This probably isnt the thread to have this discussion.

[#FF0000]

Is that statement cultural imperialism?

It's grossly ignorant of history, at the very least. The implication is also that all societies change and grow and evolve the same way, so

[Cencus]

Is this any different than that eejit that wanted to burn the koran a few weeks back?

It's just another small group attention seeking if you ask me. It's designed to shock, certainly not to gain sympathy for their cause.

[learningaboutheleft123]

I strongly disagree with their actions but I also disagree with the term "Islamic protesters" when the protest is entirely politically motivated. At least they should be called "Muslim protesters". "Islamic" implies that its influenced my Islam, whereas Muslim would imply the origin of the people protesting.

The moderates will no doubt bear the brunt of the backlash for the actions of 35 idiots.

However, they want Sharia law implemented into the UK, which is an islamic law.

But yeah, this protest was politically motivated to protest against the soldiers in Afghanistan. I don't agree with the war, but burning a poppy is hugely disrespectful to the ww1 veterans.

If we oppose the EDL, we must oppose radical islam too.

[Wanted Man]

Pro-war sectarian imperialists clash with pro-war sectarian Muslim imperialists.

This is a dubious claim of moral equivalence, disguised as balanced Marxist analysis by using loads of buzzwords. The fact is that, regardless of what's wrong with this protest, it's not equal at all, just like in the past, Islam4UK's action in Wootton Bassett was not equal to the EDL's.

What some people on the left (in all their righteous, enlightened fury at "backwards" beliefs and the people behind them) are constantly missing here is that these actions, while despicable, are a consequence of the British adventures abroad, rather than an equivalent opponent to it.

One of the most common positions on the left is described as follows:


If we oppose the EDL, we must oppose radical islam too.

Absolutely, but how do you do that? I think the first way to do that is to fight your own bourgeoisie, to oppose the wars that they initiate, rather than to oppose its consequences.

The fact of the matter is that these sick groups have no chance of instituting Sharia in Britain, they will never get the support of a serious section of the British population, and they will never take power. The same can be said of the EDL, but with the difference that they advocate for their own nation, and that they do have a (minor) potential to whip up racial tensions. More concretely, they form a direct physical threat against minorities, even if only in small amounts.

This whole thing, I think, clearly shows the qualitative difference between "white" and "black" nationalism.


Is that statement cultural imperialism? I kinda think so but wonder if it would be such a bad thing to see the middle east in general break with religion. I'm christianaphobic. When Russia went into Afghanistan they advocated atheism and banned some of the traditional backwards (religious) cultural practices. Was that cultural imperialism? This probably isnt the thread to have this discussion.

Surely when you bring up Afghanistan, one of the main lessons there was that you can't enforce atheism just like that.


But yeah, this protest was politically motivated to protest against the soldiers in Afghanistan. I don't agree with the war, but burning a poppy is hugely disrespectful to the ww1 veterans.

Surely this is the least problematic aspect of the action? :confused:

[learningaboutheleft123]

Surely this is the least problematic aspect of the action? :confused:[/QUOTE]

What do you mean ?

[The Idler]

@Wanted Man, the enemies enemy is not automatically our friend. Particularly if the enemies enemy is anti-democratic and calls for persecution. The relative strength of reactionary groups shouldn't dilute our condemnation of them. Nor should we accept their justification of British imperialist adventures. Theocratic dictatorships are not to be defended.

@learningabouttheleft123, continuing to wage war after "the war to end all wars" and claiming to remember the dead is disrespectful to everyone including veterans.

[revolution inaction]

are there even any ww1 veterans left?

[The Idler]

are there even any ww1 veterans left?
One of the last British ones was Harry Patch who died last year

Harry Patch, the last British soldier to have fought in the trenches of the First World War, was staunchly anti-war. Mr Patch believes "war is organised murder" and said: "It was not worth it, it was not worth one let alone all the millions.
"It's important that we remember the war dead on both sides of the line - the Germans suffered the same as we did."

[Wanted Man]

What do you mean ?

Surely, the fact that they are making a political statement against the Afghanistan war, and opposing "poppy fascism" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-celtic-fans-t144794/index.html) is just about the only commendable thing about the action? The thread just linked is quite educational; maybe you can start a thread titled, "when will the left oppose Celtic fans"? Didn't think so.


@Wanted Man, the enemies enemy is not automatically our friend. Particularly if the enemies enemy is anti-democratic and calls for persecution. The relative strength of reactionary groups shouldn't dilute our condemnation of them. Nor should we accept their justification of British imperialist adventures. Theocratic dictatorships are not to be defended.

Dumb strawman post. Next. What do theocratic dictatorships have to do with it anyway?

[Rainsborough]

Sadly, some posters here seem to have forgotten that the men and women who died during the 1939-1945 war died fighting Hitler and Fascism. The rights and wrongs of military deaths since do not excuse any disrespect. People want to think themselves lucky for under Stalin or any other dictator, right or left, protests would not be allowed.

[Palingenisis]

Sadly, some posters here seem to have forgotten that the men and women who died during the 1939-1945 war died fighting Hitler and Fascism. The rights and wrongs of military deaths since do not excuse any disrespect. People want to think themselves lucky for under Stalin or any other dictator, right or left, protests would not be allowed.

Im really tired about people constantly bringing up WWII when it comes to the Poppy....This money is mostly going to the scum who signed up to kill people for money in countries like Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq and Ireland that they know very little if anything about. If members of your family had to deal with British Army checkpoints and the sadistic behaviour of the scum you wouldnt be so keen on the old poppy...And lets face the whole Poppy and Rememberance Day carry on drips with chauvanistic militarism and celebration of war as opposed to just mere rememberance. Im sure the UDR men in Portstewart are now quaffing their Buckfast with money raised from the whole morbid charade.

[Palingenisis]

I wouldn't greet them with religious argument.

I wouldnt either a chara.

The point though that they were making was a valid one no matter what other crazy stuff is going on in their brains. In every campaign or dispute with the boss in work you have been involved with have all those struggling besides you been 100 per idealogicaly pure and Politically Correct?

[The Grey Blur]

it's sad to see some here falling for this bullshit story too (in the sense of whether the story is worthy of political analysis rather than it being false...though i'm sure elements are exaggerated). 50,000 students marched against cuts to university funding which included an occupation of tory HQ. a lot of popular sentiment including paul o'grady (like oprah if she was working class i guess, for the americans) in support of even the most radical anti-tory action.

so...what do the bourgeois press do...? well first of all they whip up the usual chauvinism around armistice day and then for a double whammy they elevate a handful of islamic nutjobs into national pariahs and raised the immigrant/"other" bogeyman again. it's not a coincidence that this story followed the first. divide and rule.

[freepalestine]

Its an anti war protest. A very disrespectful one but I fail to see any Islamic reason. Muslim Anti-war protesters would be a better description.

Regarding the Quranic verses and slogans, it still doesnt change an anti-war protest into anything Islamic. Muslims use them everywhere. i.e 786 etcuse the word islamist extremists for the crazy poppy burners.
anyway,many 'muslims' died in wars fighting for britain and france.
heres a recent story of palestinians ,don't know if they are muslims,christian etc.


Bittersweet remembrance for Palestinian veterans
Published yesterday (updated) 13/11/2010 17:22
http://www.revleft.com/vb/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.revleft.com/vb/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg




In Jerusalem, WWI vets participate in a parade organized by the one-time
political party Social Justice, on 9 May 2007. [MaanImages/Anat Zakai]

by Jocelyne Zablit

AIN AL-HELWEH, Lebanon (AFP) - Mussa Al-Hussein may have a hard time recalling dates and places, but the 86-year-old Palestinian does not miss a beat when asked for his ID number when he was in the British army in Palestine in World War II.

"5472," he fired off assuredly, sitting in his rundown home in the densely populated Ain Al-Helweh refugee camp in the Lebanese coastal city of Sidon.

Hussein is among some 30 Palestinians in Lebanon who fought under the Union Jack during the second World War but who were forced to flee their land in 1948 after the creation of Israel.

The majority have since been living in squalid refugees camps with little hope of ever returning home.

On Sunday, when Remembrance Day is celebrated in Britain, Hussein will stand alongside his fellow veterans at an annual ceremony in their honor in Beirut organized by the British Embassy, which has been trying to secure the men some regular assistance in recognition of their service.

"They will come on Remembrance Sunday from Tripoli, Sidon and Tyre, aged 80 or 90... they will travel three or fours hours to get here and they will stand in the sun with their medals on... proud ex-soldiers," Frances Guy, Britain's ambassador to Lebanon, told AFP.

Guy said given that the veterans had served less than 20 years in the British army, which withdrew the last of its troops from Palestine in May 1948, they were not entitled to a pension.

"The Palestinians are in a particular case because they were chased out of their homes immediately after they served with the British army, and if there is a way that we could help make the end of their lives more comfortable, then perhaps we should be doing that," she said.

The veterans, whose numbers have dwindled over the years, receive the equivalent 150 dollars annually from the Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League, a charity that provides assistance worldwide to needy ex-servicemen or women.

Several non-governmental organizations also provide medical and other assistance on a case by case basis.

But for Manhal Freih, 84, a twice-decorated veteran who joined the British army at the age of 16 and who now lives in the Burj Ash-Shemali refugee camp in the southern city of Tyre, the aid is all but negligible.

"We witnessed so much and suffered so much and in return we have received very little," said the blue-eyed Freih whose only keepsake from his military service is a cane.

At the time it was a prop to learn correct rifle positions, but now it is used as a walking stick.

"When I fought for the British, I was fighting against the Nazis, there was no Israel at the time," added the father of 13 who sports a white handlebar mustache and still has the energy to do daily push-ups and exercises.

"You should have seen me as a soldier," he said wistfully, dressed in a traditional white headdress. "I really looked sharp.

"Our superiors were all British, and I recall one who was called Mr Ridley and who was feared by everyone," he added.

Freih said that while he does not regret joining the British army he felt rejected because there was little recognition for his years of service.

"We live in dire conditions in a land that will never be ours," he said of the camps in Lebanon. "And you know when you live a free man, even if it's in a cave, you are king."

Ibrahim Adawi, 84, who was part of the British army's cavalry for two years and who lives in the Burj Al-Barajneh refugee camp in Beirut, said he holds no grudge against Britain, though he would welcome a little more aid for himself and his family of nine.

"My ID was 8250," he said softly in English before quickly switching to Arabic.

Adawi, who uses a walker because of a recent fall, has preserved his soldier's service book which bears his picture as a young man and states that he enlisted on November 6, 1946.

Like his fellow veterans, he has trouble recalling specific incidents or places of deployment during his years of service.

"I don't regret one bit having served with the British army," he said, sitting next to his wife in a sparsely furnished single room that is his home. "I salute them.

"You know, once a soldier always a soldier -- and if I could serve with them again I would proudly do so."

For Hussein, a frail man with a deeply lined face, Sunday will mark an opportunity to stand proud and forget, even for a brief moment, his life of suffering in the refugee camps.

"I haven't missed one invitation over the years," he said, taking a long draw on his cigarette and showing off a fading black and white picture of himself as a young man in uniform.

"I feel I am somebody on Remembrance Sunday."
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=333450

[Sam_b]

Sadly, some posters here seem to have forgotten that the men and women who died during the 1939-1945 war died fighting Hitler and Fascism.

No, they died fighting for their ruling classes financial interests overseas dressed up in the pretext of 'fighting fascism'. It saddens me how much of the left ignore the objective facts around WW2 and excuse it because of the apparent 'cause'.

[Wanted Man]

Sadly, some posters here seem to have forgotten that the men and women who died during the 1939-1945 war died fighting Hitler and Fascism. The rights and wrongs of military deaths since do not excuse any disrespect. People want to think themselves lucky for under Stalin or any other dictator, right or left, protests would not be allowed.

The point of Remebrance Sunday is not anti-fascism.

[Rainsborough]

No, they died fighting for their ruling classes financial interests overseas dressed up in the pretext of 'fighting fascism'. It saddens me how much of the left ignore the objective facts around WW2 and excuse it because of the apparent 'cause'.

That's bollox If they had refused to 'fight fascism' and had chosen to stay out of imperialistic wars. How different might the world be now?

[Jazzratt]

That's bollox If they had refused to 'fight fascism' and had chosen to stay out of imperialistic wars. How different might the world be now? What's the point in asking that question? Obviously the implication is that we'd all be under the jackboot of some Nazi regime if it wasn't for the workers getting chucked into the meat grinder. That only works if you assume that all people would have done would be to sit around mentula in manos and doing fuck all about Nazi occupations if it weren't for the imperialist governments and armies of the day giving them direction. I don't know what your politics are but if they're at all leftist that is a bizarre assertion to make as it implies that rather than being able to (in fact being the only group capable of) effectively revolt against capitalism and fascism the working class wouldn't know if it was areshole or breakfast time without the leadership of the bourgeoisie.

Even if your specious point had any merit though it still doesn't mean we should buy into events like rememberance Sunday. The whole thing is a barely disguised glorification of war, it might be couched in terms of sacrifice but it's ultimately a reinforcement of the concept that imperialist wars are righteous and the dupes & lackeys of the ruling classes are brave heroes. Fuck it.

[Dr Mindbender]

What's the point in asking that question? Obviously the implication is that we'd all be under the jackboot of some Nazi regime if it wasn't for the workers getting chucked into the meat grinder. That only works if you assume that all people would have done would be to sit around mentula in manos and doing fuck all about Nazi occupations if it weren't for the imperialist governments and armies of the day giving them direction. I don't know what your politics are but if they're at all leftist that is a bizarre assertion to make as it implies that rather than being able to (in fact being the only group capable of) effectively revolt against capitalism and fascism the working class wouldn't know if it was areshole or breakfast time without the leadership of the bourgeoisie.

I dont condone imperialist activity, but in this instance lets face it how effect would any home resistance have had if the Germans had won? The french resistance were fighting an uphill struggle to put it mildly. Memories of Dad's army and Walmington-on-sea home guard spring to mind. It isnt a matter of beourgeoisie chauvinism, more realism and historical imperial evidence. In that situation the nazis would have taken over all the tanks, weapons and factories with an entire continent to back them up. I am thankful that i'm not living under the third reich, and live in a society that largely tolerates other cultures and lifestyle choices but that is as far as my gratitude extends.

[Queercommie Girl]

The middle east needs a period of bourgeois enlightenment to rid itself of religious fundamentalism/theocracy.
No this statement is not "cultural imperialism", but it is bourgeois imperialism. The idea here is that enlighentment must somehow be bourgeois in nature, which is reactionary BS. Ever read Trotsky's idea of permanent revolution? The era of bourgeois revolutions is long gone, bourgeois tasks, including cultural ones, can now only be carried out by the proletariat.

It's not "cultural imperialism" because that is ridiculously assuming that "enlightenment" must be Western in nature, that somehow modern enlightenment culture is intrinsically Western or European. What BS. Are you saying Muslim culture cannot have their own non-Western enlightenment? In fact, the Islamic world was actually relatively enlightened and rational compared with the lunacy of the European middle ages.

[The Idler]

Dumb strawman post. Next. What do theocratic dictatorships have to do with it anyway?
Muslims against the Crusades wish to introduce a theocratic dictatorship in Britain.

[Wanted Man]

Muslims against the Crusades wish to introduce a theocratic dictatorship in Britain.

So what? Nobody in this thread has ever expressed support for that goal, or suggested that people who do so are "friends". We just don't see the point in wasting too much time on "fighting" it, since it will obviously never be a reality in Britain. We also don't want to go along with your mouth-breathing assertion that there is some kind of moral or other equivalence between them and British imperialism.

That's about as much as I can do to explain why your previous post was a ridiculous strawman. If you still don't get it, then I'm very sorry, but I can't help you much more. But hey good luck protesting against a few dozen immigrants with backwards beliefs. Good to see people getting their priorities straight. Fight the power, champ.

[The Idler]

Who said they were immigrants? And why do you concern yourself only with what might happen in Britain? Radical Islam does have power on a global level. In any case, a protest against Muslims Against the Crusades would probably be more effective than against British Imperialism so perhaps it is you who will need the luck.

[revolution inaction]

muslims against crusades are completely fucking irrelivent and the only people who care about them are idiots and racists like the edl and other people who believe what that read in the daily mail

[Jazzratt]

Who said they were immigrants? And why do you concern yourself only with what might happen in Britain? Radical Islam does have power on a global level. I think it's a point of practicality. The Islamic regimes currently extant in the middle east and south east Asia are obviously pretty oppressive, no one disagrees. It's stupid though to believe that action taken in Britain will affect those regimes in any manner. Meanwhile in Britain Islam is largely irrelevant and "radical" Islam even more so.


In any case, a protest against Muslims Against the Crusades would probably be more effective than against British Imperialism so perhaps it is you who will need the luck. Define "effective." Sure you're more likely to affect a bunch of losers like the MAC than you are to cause much of a concern to the ruling regime of British imperialism in the same way that you would probably find it easier to snuff a candle than to extinguish the conflagration that is immolating your house. We don't need to oppose every handful of nutters even if we could prove to be "effective" in our opposition to them, because sometimes we're going to gain fuck all.

[electro_fan]

Do you think every soldier who fought in Korea etc is scum?! :eek:

[Black Sheep]

i thought the thread title was a typo of 'muslims burn puppies'

[Jazzratt]

i thought the thread title was a typo of 'muslims burn puppies' I expect to see that headline on a tabloid here any day now. I mean, fuck me.