Chavez Seizes Apartment Buildings

[Rakhmetov]

Recent electoral setbacks is propelling Chavez to more expropriations.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40064787/ns/world_news-venezuela

[REDSOX]

Great move, keep going Hugo, Keep going venezuelan masses, left left left Chavez also nationalised another 5 milk transportation companies today as well. Details on aporea, keep going

[RadioRaheem84]

Damn. Hugo is on a nationalization spree! Yee-haw.

I love it.

[L.A.P.]

It's so beautiful, i just want to cry.:crying:

[4 Leaf Clover]

Stalinism ! :lol:

Anyways , Chavez got his fingers deep into solving social problems. Thumbs up :thumbup1:

[La Peur Rouge]

I'm happy that Chavez is doing all of this, but how far can Venezuela go without real worker's revolution?

[pranabjyoti]

I just want to say, whether knowingly or unknowingly he is following the footsteps of Stalin.

[KurtFF8]

I just want to say, whether knowingly or unknowingly he is following the footsteps of Stalin.

Because he nationalized apartment buildings? And how is Venezuela of the past 10 years in any way comparable to the early USSR?

[Sentinel]

I'ma socialist and nationalisations are a necessary part of socialist development, so when it comes to this Mr Chavez of course has my full support.

[Communist]

.

Good, a step forward! Glad to hear this is happening.

.

[Chimurenga.]

Because he nationalized apartment buildings? And how is Venezuela of the past 10 years in any way comparable to the early USSR?

Doesn't make sense to me either.

[lines]

Viva Chavez!

[Crux]

I just want to say, whether knowingly or unknowingly he is following the footsteps of Stalin.
You mean that both have expressed strong vocal support for Trotsky?
Or, what straws are you clutching for?

[pranabjyoti]

Because he nationalized apartment buildings? And how is Venezuela of the past 10 years in any way comparable to the early USSR?
At least it has faced an army coup to overthrow a popular president. Certainly Venezuela and early USSR are incomparable, because of not only geographical location but also time. Today imperialism is strong but not capable to launch an attack upto 1/10th of the level that had been launched against USSR.
But, what I want to say that they are BASICALLY same. Chavez Nationalizes companies one after another because capitalists are just incapable to continue those companies. He also have to build new industries and ultimately, in my opinion, it's very much clear to common people of Venezuela that nationalization under continuous public surveillance is the best way of industrialization. EXACTLY IN THAT MANNER THE INDUSTRIALIZATION OF USSR WERE CONTINUED DURING THE INITIAL AND LATER PHASE.

[KurtFF8]

It's not "exactly in that manner..." of the USSR in any way. The economy of Venezuela is no like the economy of Russia when Stalin came to power. The working class was much larger in Venezuela as a percent of the population than it was in the early USSR.

Also Stalin was not the head of a bourgeois capitalist democracy, Chavez is (and of course acknowledges this).

I'm still not sure how this comparison is relevant or helpful. It seems to me that people often try to make these kinds of comparisons to early Soviet history to justify their specific party/thinker's line, when in reality it's based on ideology.

[RadioRaheem84]

If there had to be any comparisons it would be to either Allende's Chile or the Second Spanish Republic.

[Crux]

At least it has faced an army coup to overthrow a popular president. Certainly Venezuela and early USSR are incomparable, because of not only geographical location but also time. Today imperialism is strong but not capable to launch an attack upto 1/10th of the level that had been launched against USSR.
But, what I want to say that they are BASICALLY same. Chavez Nationalizes companies one after another because capitalists are just incapable to continue those companies. He also have to build new industries and ultimately, in my opinion, it's very much clear to common people of Venezuela that nationalization under continuous public surveillance is the best way of industrialization. EXACTLY IN THAT MANNER THE INDUSTRIALIZATION OF USSR WERE CONTINUED DURING THE INITIAL AND LATER PHASE. Stalin was not leading the initial nationalizations and the latter under Stalin had more mixed result because of the regimes bureaucratic deformations. But yeah, THIS IS JUST A WEIRD SIDETRACK. AND PLEASE STOP YOUR RANDOM CAPITALIZATION.

[4 Leaf Clover]

We support nationalistaion. the end

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Who is "we?"

[gorillafuck]

This is very good, but I can't see Venezuela developing a bottom up socialist system without an actual workers revolution. If there were to be one I am curious what side Chavez would be on.

[KurtFF8]

This is very good, but I can't see Venezuela developing a bottom up socialist system without an actual workers revolution. If there were to be one I am curious what side Chavez would be on.

Do you, or any other posters, really think that he would side with the bourgeoisie ? I mean if anything it would be pragmatically absurd: he has pissed them off significantly not only in the past (over) 10 years of his Presidency but even before that when he tried to take power.

And this reminds me of what I said once before about Venezuela: it seems that too many people are looking for a singular political "Event" to happen that can justify the progress as "good" or "really socialist."

The problem with that logic is that even with a "real revolution" (I would argue that what is going on amounts to a different kind of rise of workers power): building socialism is a process, not a political event or set of declarations after a specific action by the working class.

So like Cuba, Venezuela's attempt to build socialism is (to quote the Monthly Review) "a process, not a thing"

[pranabjyoti]

It's not "exactly in that manner..." of the USSR in any way. The economy of Venezuela is no like the economy of Russia when Stalin came to power. The working class was much larger in Venezuela as a percent of the population than it was in the early USSR.

Also Stalin was not the head of a bourgeois capitalist democracy, Chavez is (and of course acknowledges this).

I'm still not sure how this comparison is relevant or helpful. It seems to me that people often try to make these kinds of comparisons to early Soviet history to justify their specific party/thinker's line, when in reality it's based on ideology.
I repeatedly have said "basically".

[Pretty Flaco]

More than 1 million of Venezuela's estimated 28 million inhabitants do not have adequate housing while millions more live in dangerous, labyrinth-like slums ringing the South American nation's cities.
The government plans to invest $1.5 billion next year to build homes for poor and middle-class families, Chavez announced Sunday.


That was the most interesting part of the article to me. I wonder how largely the project will affect the people.

[Rakhmetov]

Poor people, man. This is why I support radical social revolution. Not even Stalin, for all his crimes, would tolerate living conditions like this.

http://stateofthenation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/manila_slums.jpg

http://image09.webshots.com/9/0/43/97/123104397nrgeRb_fs.jpg

http://formaementis.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kibera-nairobi-kenya.jpg

:(

[Pretty Flaco]

Poor people, man. This is why I support radical social revolution. Not even Stalin, for all his crimes, would tolerate living conditions like this.

http://stateofthenation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/manila_slums.jpg

http://image09.webshots.com/9/0/43/97/123104397nrgeRb_fs.jpg

http://formaementis.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kibera-nairobi-kenya.jpg

:(

I actually never even realized that the class disparity in Venezuela was that enormous...

The comments on the article made me lol... random shit about chavez being an evil dictator trying to trick the people of venezuela

[KurtFF8]

I repeatedly have said "basically".

How does that make the Russian situation any more relevant? If anything it shows that it's still an incomparable situation that you're trying to appeal to for the emotional affect of evoking "Stalin"

[MellowViper]

I hope they get free rent.

[pranabjyoti]

How does that make the Russian situation any more relevant? If anything it shows that it's still an incomparable situation that you're trying to appeal to for the emotional affect of evoking "Stalin"
Because, though he is the head of a bourgeoisie state but as time goes on, he willingly or unwillingly has to take the road of dictatorship of proletariat i.e. Stalinism. Nationalizing companies one by one and even seizing of apartment buildings are the initial steps.

[Robocommie]

And this reminds me of what I said once before about Venezuela: it seems that too many people are looking for a singular political "Event" to happen that can justify the progress as "good" or "really socialist."

The problem with that logic is that even with a "real revolution" (I would argue that what is going on amounts to a different kind of rise of workers power): building socialism is a process, not a political event or set of declarations after a specific action by the working class.

Well said, it is generally ahistorical to expect any social movement to come down to any one decisive moment or occurence. That's not how things happen. The French Revolution did not begin or end with the storming of the Bastille, just like the Russian Revolution did not begin or end with the storming of the Winter Palace.

[Blackscare]

Hey guys, Stalin and Trotsky were basically EXACTLY THE SAME BECAUSE STALIN WAS MULTICELLULAR AND TROTSKY WAS AS WELL, BASICALLY.



See it's true because I said basically, MULTIPLE TIMES OK?









Srsly though,
nationalization != DoP
nationalization != Stalinism
nationalization == nationalization

I can't think of a single modern socialist national project that didn't/doesn't involve nationalization. It's one of the most basic elements of socialism. So either there are/were a lot more "Stalinist" governments than I ever imagined, or you're way off base.

[Thirsty Crow]

...he willingly or unwillingly has to take the road of dictatorship of proletariat i.e. Stalinism.
Ever considered rehab? Cause, you're just seriously tripping.

Considering the Venezuelan program for housing, it seems like a plan that is well thought out.
And Kurt notes well how expectations of a singular "big event" are faulty.

[RadioRaheem84]

What I don't understand is why Cuba is taking the opposite approach? Or are they trying to meet somewhere in the middle?

[pranabjyoti]

Hey guys, Stalin and Trotsky were basically EXACTLY THE SAME BECAUSE STALIN WAS MULTICELLULAR AND TROTSKY WAS AS WELL, BASICALLY.



See it's true because I said basically, MULTIPLE TIMES OK?







Srsly though,
nationalization != DoP
nationalization != Stalinism
nationalization == nationalization

I can't think of a single modern socialist national project that didn't/doesn't involve nationalization. It's one of the most basic elements of socialism. So either there are/were a lot more "Stalinist" governments than I ever imagined, or you're way off base.
This thread is about politics, not about Biology and I don't have any idea that I have to teach that to somebody.
From your thread, it seems that all kind of nationalizations are "socialism". Do you have any idea about the nationalization and industrialization under Govt. in some countries, as for example India?

[Rachael]

This is very good, but I can't see Venezuela developing a bottom up socialist system without an actual workers revolution. If there were to be one I am curious what side Chavez would be on.
Depends on which side he thinks will keep him in power.

[Blackscare]

This thread is about politics, not about Biology and I don't have any idea that I have to teach that to somebody.

Wait... wat?


From your thread, it seems that all kind of nationalizations are "socialism". Do you have any idea about the nationalization and industrialization under Govt. in some countries, as for example India?


Yea, and I hear that all squares are rectangles but only some rectangles are square. I know, I know, this isn't the geometry forum.

(what I mean is that all socialist projects will involve nationalization but not all nationalization is socialist)

[pranabjyoti]

The Question of Direct Participation: A Venezuelan Example (http://kasamaproject.org/2010/11/15/the-question-of-direct-participation-a-venezuelan-example/)

Posted by Mike E (http://mikeely.wordpress.com/) on November 15, 2010
http://venezuelanalysis.com/files/imagecache/block_node_images/images/2010/11/unt_2010_171.jpgIn a side FB discussion (http://www.facebook.com/#%21/permalink.php?story_fbid=118128491583929&id=1129785784) of socialist forms (http://kasamaproject.org/2010/11/13/future-socialist-state-forms-what-can-be-known-and-what-cant/), Greg McDonald suggested the following essay. I will x-post our exchange, which I think gets to some points of contention — specifically on the question of direct rule by workers.
Venezuelan Workers March for More Participation and More Rights

Nov 11th 2010, by Juan Reardon – Venezuelanalysis.com (http://venezuelanalysis.com/print/5777)
Mérida, October 11,2010 – Thousands of Venezuelan workers took to the streets of Caracas on Tuesday, November 9, demanding greater participation in their country’s nascent socialist economy.
Carrying banners that read, “Neither Capital nor Bureaucrats – More Socialism and More Revolution,” thousands of workers, union representatives, members of leftist political parties and other popular organizations took their demands to the Ministry of Communes and Social Protection, the National Assembly and the offices of the Vice Presidency.
Venezuela’s National Workers’ Union (UNETE), the organizers of the demonstration, called for the immediate passing of a new and radical labor law, the resolution of pending collective labor contracts, and the empowerment of workers within their unions, especially at worksites that now belong to the network of recently nationalized industries.
A Revolutionary Labor Law
Marcela Maspero, UNETE’s National Coordinator, led demonstrators in their demands for a new and revolutionary labor law. This new law, according to Maspero, “is a vital tool for the Venezuelan working class to overcome longstanding and ongoing exploitation at the workplace.”
Maspero, who in the year 2000 helped coordinate the pro-Chávez Bolivarian Workers Force, also played an important role in the formation of UNETE after Venezuela’s traditional Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV) coordinated a series of general strikes against the Chávez government alongside the country’s largest chamber of commerce, Fedecamaras. UNETE was officially born in May, 2003.
“The objective [of the march] is to ensure that the National Assembly approve the new labor law, meant to bring dignity to our relations of production and place in the hands of Venezuela’s workers the direction of this revolutionary process,” affirmed Maspero.
Some of the most popular components of the proposed labor law discussed during the march include: abolishing the so-called “subcontracted worker” position, requiring employers – both public and private – to incorporate all workers as fixed, benefit-assured workers; reducing the legal workday from eight to six hours, allotting paid time for workers’ councils as well as political education; and the establishing of a national fund for worker stability that would include payments to thousands of workers denied their legal rights by former employers before and during the arrival of the Bolivarian Revolution.
UNETE’s National Coordinator described worker’s frustration with the National Assembly, which has been debating the law for years.
“Beginning with the first plans for a new labor law made back in 2003, we passed on to a second discussion in which thousands of proposals were developed by workers themselves. But the responses we’ve received from the authorities are disappointing, authorities that argue they need to seek consensus without seeking that consensus with the workers – who are the most affected by this legislation,” Maspero explained.
Maspero also affirmed that the Venezuelan working class needs the National Assembly to approve this law by the end of this year, avoiding the roadblocks which will likely be put in to place by the incoming National Assembly and its growing anti-Chavez minority.
According to Pedro Eusse, coordinating member of UNETE and member of the leftist “Cruz Villegas” Workers’ Class Current, “The new labor law must severely punish those employers, both public and private, who violate worker’s rights.”
“The right to work for all must be guaranteed in the new law, along with the right to dignified and adequate working conditions for workers with disabilities, young people now joining the workforce and others…” said Eusse.
“The new law should also have a gender perspective, adopting norms that sanction acts of discrimination against women, developing rules for a just maternity and paternity leave, expanding the time allotted for rest during childbearing and after childbirth, with guarantees in salaries, a return to their workplace in the same function they held before their time off, etc.,” he added.
Also pending approval by the National Assembly is a radical component of the new labor law known as the Special Law for Socialist Workers Councils, proposed in 2007 by the Venezuelan Communist Party (PCV). This law would place decision-making authority of all things productive, political, administrative and socio-cultural in the hands of socialist workers councils in any and all public, private and mixed-capital workplaces.
These councils would not replace existing unions or their organizational structures. Instead, they are intended to consolidate worker control in every workplace in which organized workers currently lack the legal mechanisms to exercise their collective will.
Other demands made by marchers include an increase in salaries across the board – so as to keep up with inflation – further nationalizations in a number of industries that face constant workplace conflicts, the canceling of debts the government holds with public employees in the health and culture departments as well as the renegotiation by the government of collective bargaining agreements with public sector employees.
Socialism in Theory, Socialism in Practice
As a result of recent nationalizations by the Chávez government and ongoing grassroots efforts by radical workers and their political parties, many of the workers at Tuesday’s march demanded the Bolivarian Revolution go beyond the simple passing of a new labor law. Instead, many called for a transition from what they called a “socialism in theory and in discourse” to a socialism in practice.
“We’d like to see our company nationalized, socialized,” said Vicente Ponte Moreno, elected by his co-workers to prevent workplace injuries at Empresa Ceramica del Tuy, a privately-owned ceramic company in the state of Miranda.
“We know the company well, we know how to run it and we know that we can run it, but we need the government to support our demands,” Moreno affirmed.
Juan Paiva, UNETE’s Regional Coordinator for the metropolitan Caracas and Miranda state, reiterated Moreno’s assertions.
“We’ve been lied to for years. Administrators, technicians, academics, the news media, they all told us we wouldn’t be able to manage companies, industries, production,” said Paiva.
“Look at us now – supermarkets, the steel and aluminum industries, glass, paper, petroleum. With this government Venezuela’s workers finally have the opportunity to take power,” concluded Paiva.
“The working class is with you Chávez, but we want to make the decisions when it relates to working class issues,” affirmed UNETE’s Maspero.
As was reported by Venezuelanalysis.com on October 28, workers from state-owned companies have also demanded greater worker control in their sectors of the economy. These workers – spanning from coffee company Fama de America, food distributor Mercal, to television channel VTV – have called for an end to interventions by reformist state functionaries who obstruct the establishment of worker control in their companies.
Joel Garcia, Secretary General of the Petroleum Workers’ Union of the Orinoco Belt (Sutrapetrorinoco), represents over 2,100 publicly employed oil industry workers in the state of Anzoátegui and is also Union Secretary of the Venezuelan Communist Party for Anzoátegui.
“We haven’t yet begun the transition to socialism. We’ve gone from private capital to socialized capital, but Venezuela’s working class continues to be alienated, exploited, mistreated,” affirmed Garcia.
“In Venezuela, we don’t feel a pain inside when we are stepped on by our workplace or political representatives. The culture of nepotism, favoritisms and manipulation is so strong that we almost expect this type of treatment,” explained Garcia.
“What we need to develop – in struggle – is a clear and defined class consciousness that identifies our class enemies, including those who work against our interests in the name of the so-called ‘Bolivarian Revolution’” Garcia concluded.
“President Chávez, in the last two years especially, has tried to change the economy, the mode of production, and the form of the state. But the problem is if these objectives are not taken up with force, passion, and intelligence by the workers themselves, the bureaucracy within the public administration – the petty bourgeoisie that has control over the important parts of the Venezuelan state – will prevent these objectives from going forward,” affirmed Pedro Eusse in a July 2010 interview.

Thanks to the workers who openly declared war against the petty-bourgeoisie.

[pranabjyoti]

Is there any way to contact those workers and working class organization by e-mail and can they read and understand English? Any suggestion from any Comrade?

[Artemis3]

http://venezuelanalysis.com/tag/unete

They appear to use this email: [email protected] I don't know if they have someone who understands english, it doesn't hurt to try...